Packers D now rank 3rd.

[pack4to84]

Dom Capers and crew are starting to put it together. When was the last time the Packers where ranked 3rd in defense after 6 game/7 weeks of the season?

3rd in YPG
4th in YPP
8th 3rd down Pct.
5th Pts/G

[pbmax]

Jinx!

[Scott Campbell]

We desperately need a 3rd ranked pass rush on Sunday.

[pbmax]

We desperately need a 3rd ranked pass rush on Sunday.
We need Reggie to heal Raji's ankle.

[mmmdk]

We desperately need a 3rd ranked pass rush on Sunday.
We need Reggie to heal Raji's ankle.

Funny :lol:

[retailguy]

Dom Capers and crew are starting to put it together. When was the last time the Packers where ranked 3rd in defense after 6 game/7 weeks of the season?

3rd in YPG
4th in YPP
8th 3rd down Pct.
5th Pts/G

I don't know, probably the last time we played Detroit & Cleveland in consecutive weeks?

Seriously, stats don't tell the whole story. This defense is improving slowly as we all knew it would, but they have a long ways to go.

Minnesota sliced up this defense like swiss cheese a month ago. Let's see what happens on Sunday. I'm just looking for improvment.

[HarveyWallbangers]

We've had an easy schedule, but we aren't the only team that has, so it's not insignificant. We'll see where we are at the end of the season though.

[bobblehead]

Dom Capers and crew are starting to put it together. When was the last time the Packers where ranked 3rd in defense after 6 game/7 weeks of the season?

3rd in YPG
4th in YPP
8th 3rd down Pct.
5th Pts/G

I don't know, probably the last time we played Detroit & Cleveland in consecutive weeks?

Seriously, stats don't tell the whole story. This defense is improving slowly as we all knew it would, but they have a long ways to go.

Minnesota sliced up this defense like swiss cheese a month ago. Let's see what happens on Sunday. I'm just looking for improvment.

RG, I agree some other things are relevant, but honestly, stats matter. If we were 30th in the league, but had played a horrendous schedule would you claim the D was good??

To date the Lions put 13+ on the board in every game but one. They got 20+ all but 3. That one game, and one of the 3 was when we held them to....ZERO!

To date the Browns Have gotten 20 twice...once against Minnesota. (man that vikes D must SUCK) They got 14 against the steelers. They got 3 off us in 8 quarters counting preseason.

Now, I'm not ready to declare us the '85 bears yet, but we held 2 NFL teams to 3 points in our last 8 quarters...if you can't give SOME credit for that you are as guilty as anyone who tries to claim it makes or D dominant.

If I said that Dilfer is just as good as BF cuz he won a superbowl as well, would you cite any stats to say otherwise??

[mission]

We've had an easy schedule, but we aren't the only team that has, so it's not insignificant. We'll see where we are at the end of the season though.

Yeah, seems like everyone gets to play the Lions and Browns this year! :lol:

[PackerTimer]

We have played two seriously inept teams the last two weeks. But, we did beat those two teams exactly the way we should. The defense pretty much suffocated our last two opponents. Yes they were bad football teams, but they are still NFL players and giving up 3 total points in two games is pretty damn good no matter how bad the team is. But I agree with RG, this week will tell a lot.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Dom Capers and crew are starting to put it together. When was the last time the Packers where ranked 3rd in defense after 6 game/7 weeks of the season?

3rd in YPG
4th in YPP
8th 3rd down Pct.
5th Pts/G

I don't know, probably the last time we played Detroit & Cleveland in consecutive weeks?

Seriously, stats don't tell the whole story. This defense is improving slowly as we all knew it would, but they have a long ways to go.

Minnesota sliced up this defense like swiss cheese a month ago. Let's see what happens on Sunday. I'm just looking for improvment.

I would say that MIN carved up GB in the passing game, but certainly didn't run on them.

Furthermore, 3 of MIN's 5 wins were against the Lions, Browns and Rams (same as us)

1 win came on an amazing last second pass / catch

And their last win was gift wrapped by a last second field goal miss.

THis is a team that can be beaten!!!

[Brandon494]

Dom Capers and crew are starting to put it together. When was the last time the Packers where ranked 3rd in defense after 6 game/7 weeks of the season?

3rd in YPG
4th in YPP
8th 3rd down Pct.
5th Pts/G

I don't know, probably the last time we played Detroit & Cleveland in consecutive weeks?

Seriously, stats don't tell the whole story. This defense is improving slowly as we all knew it would, but they have a long ways to go.

Minnesota sliced up this defense like swiss cheese a month ago. Let's see what happens on Sunday. I'm just looking for improvment.

I agree stats dont tell the whole story after we just played the Lions without their starting QB and top WR in the league and the Browns who just traded their top WR and had many players just coming off the flu. That being said with Bigby back in the lineup our defense has looked a lot better. Without Bigby in the lineup against the only two winning teams we have faced this season we gave up 30+ points so lets wait and see before we get too excited. The defense is improving but they arent there yet.

[rbaloha1]

Misleading. The Packers d has faced 3 pathetic offenses and a new qb starting his first game.

When playing 2 premier qbs the Packer D did not play as well. Granted the scheme has adjusted to allow AK more pass rushes, CM, improved Hawk play and Bigby. This week is a better test as to how good the defense is.

[HarveyWallbangers]

When playing 2 premier qbs the Packer D did not play as well. Granted the scheme has adjusted to allow AK more pass rushes, CM, improved Hawk play and Bigby. This week is a better test as to how good the defense is.

Couldn't you say that about every team--even the good ones? Most teams pad their stats against poor teams. It will even out by the end of the year, but this is true for all defenses.

The teams ranked ahead of the Packers in defense:

Denver played Cleveland and Oakland.

Indianapolis played Jacksonville, Miami, Tennessee, St. Louis, and Seattle (without Hasselbeck)

New England played Buffalo, the Jets, Tennessee, and Tampa Bay.

The Jets played Tennessee, Buffalo, and Oakland.

[rbaloha1]

When playing 2 premier qbs the Packer D did not play as well. Granted the scheme has adjusted to allow AK more pass rushes, CM, improved Hawk play and Bigby. This week is a better test as to how good the defense is.

Couldn't you say that about every team--even the good ones? Most teams pad their stats against poor teams. It will even out by the end of the year, but this is true for all defenses.

The teams ranked ahead of the Packers in defense:

Denver played Cleveland and Oakland.

Indianapolis played Jacksonville, Miami, Tennessee, St. Louis, and Seattle (without Hasselbeck)

New England played Buffalo, the Jets, Tennessee, and Tampa Bay.

The Jets played Tennessee, Buffalo, and Oakland.

Good point. Lets wait until after the Vikes to assess.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I don't have to wait. The Packers' defense is top notch. So is Capers.

I think he screwed up last time against the Vikes concentrating on Peterson. I'd rush the hell out of Farve. Play it just like Pittsburgh did. So Peterson gets a long TD. Rather that than Favre having half a minute in the pocket.

[bobblehead]

When playing 2 premier qbs the Packer D did not play as well. Granted the scheme has adjusted to allow AK more pass rushes, CM, improved Hawk play and Bigby. This week is a better test as to how good the defense is.

Couldn't you say that about every team--even the good ones? Most teams pad their stats against poor teams. It will even out by the end of the year, but this is true for all defenses.

The teams ranked ahead of the Packers in defense:

Denver played Cleveland and Oakland.

Indianapolis played Jacksonville, Miami, Tennessee, St. Louis, and Seattle (without Hasselbeck)

New England played Buffalo, the Jets, Tennessee, and Tampa Bay.

The Jets played Tennessee, Buffalo, and Oakland.

No, its only relevant to discount the packers....those other teams are legit.

[MJZiggy]

I thought it was only relevant to discount the Lions??? Though admittedly, there is some serious competition for the league toilet right now. Glad to be in the competition going the other direction.

[retailguy]

RG, I agree some other things are relevant, but honestly, stats matter. If we were 30th in the league, but had played a horrendous schedule would you claim the D was good??

To date the Lions put 13+ on the board in every game but one. They got 20+ all but 3. That one game, and one of the 3 was when we held them to....ZERO!

To date the Browns Have gotten 20 twice...once against Minnesota. (man that vikes D must SUCK) They got 14 against the steelers. They got 3 off us in 8 quarters counting preseason.

Now, I'm not ready to declare us the '85 bears yet, but we held 2 NFL teams to 3 points in our last 8 quarters...if you can't give SOME credit for that you are as guilty as anyone who tries to claim it makes or D dominant.

If I said that Dilfer is just as good as BF cuz he won a superbowl as well, would you cite any stats to say otherwise??

You make some good points and I agree with them. Stated clearly, my biggest point in both threads is that you can "interpret" stats however you like. I can see stats as showing a problem, you can see stats as movement in the direction of the solution. Who is right at the end of the day? Both of us, perhaps.

Look, our defense shut down Peterson, as MPF said. That was GREAT. Unfortunately, that meant that BF had way too much time to throw the ball and the end result was no different than if Peterson had run for 200 yards and 3 tds...

I am on board the 3-4 train. I question how we're using Kampman, and whether or not our DL is up to the transition. Other than that, I'm on board. We need to trade Kampy, and we need another 3-4 lineman. Montgomery is a bad fit, as is poppinga. But overall, I like the solution.

But saying we've got a great defense because stats say so? After all we're ranked third. Problem for me. I watched the games. We aren't a great Defense. We're improving, but not great. Probably not even good yet. Getting there. Improving. For 6 weeks, I am happy with that.

I really meant it when I said I was looking for IMPROVEMENT this weekend. I don't even need to see a win. I want a good, hard fought, 4 strong quarters of football. We haven't seen that yet this year, EXCEPT against Cleveland. Cleveland is in the NFL, but we need to be able to play that way against other teams too.

[pbmax]

Football Outsiders (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2009/week-7-dvoa-ratings) has us as the 4th ranked team for Week 7. We jumped from 8th last week. They adjust their rankings for a team's opponents, but this early in the season, the adjustment is only 70% of normal effect. Which means the victories over the Browns and the Lions are inflated slightly compared to what they will contribute after Week 9. DVOA is an offensive measurement. So positive numbers are good for offense and ST, you want Defenses to be negative.

Sorry, not sure how to make the code font bigger.


....TEAM....TOTDVOA...W-L...NOADJVOA....ESTWINS..RANK..PASTSCHED...RANK... FUTURESCHED...RANK....VAR...RANK
1...NO….....43.1%.....6-0.....47.9%.....6.3.....1........0.4%......14.....-14.2%........31......6.4%.....7
2...IND.....42.4%.....6-0.....51.6%.....5.8.....2.......-7.8%......26.......4.4%........8......14.9%.....18
3...NE......38.6%.....5-2.....39.1%.....5.1.....5.......-3.9%......22.......8.1%........7......18.5%.....24
4...GB......35.1%.....4-2.....47.6%.....5.0.....6......-18.4%......30......-2.1%........21.....15.3%.....19
5...DEN.....34.7%.....6-0.....38.4%.....5.5.....3.......-3.7%......21.......1.5%........15......4.4%.....4
6...PHI.....33.0%.....4-2.....48.4%.....4.6.....10.....-17.5%......29......10.2%........5......21.7%.....2 9
7...BAL.....27.9%.....3-3.....31.9%.....4.9.....8.......-0.7%......18......-1.8%........20.....10.2%.....13
8...MIN.....24.6%.....6-1.....31.8%.....5.2.....4.......-9.8%......28......-4.7%........25.....3.6%......1
9...NYG.....22.8%.....5-2.....21.4%.....4.1.....12......-7.0%......25......12.3%........4......14.8%.....17
10..ARI.....22.0%.....4-2.....18.8%.....5.0.....7........8.0%......7......-21.2%........32.....28.4%.....31
11..DAL.....21.5%.....4-2.....24.1%.....4.8.....9.......-5.8%......24......10.0%........6.......9.3%.....12
12..PIT.....14.6%.....5-2.....29.1%.....4.6.....11.....-18.9%......31.......2.8%........11......4.2%.....2
13..MIA.....12.7%.....2-4......4.2%.....3.9.....15......11.5%......5...... .-3.9%........23.....17.4%.....23
14..ATL......7.7%.....4-2.....12.6%.....3.9.....16.......2.5%......11..... ..0.5%........17.....16.5%.....21
15..CIN......5.1%.....5-2......8.0%.....4.0.....14.......7.6%......9......-12.2%........29.....16.7%.....22
16..JAC......3.5%.....3-3......1.3%.....4.0.....13......-4.5%......23......-4.2%........24.....21.3%.....28
17..NYJ......3.4%.....4-3.....12.6%.....3.6.....17......-2.1%......20.......2.6%........12.....13.7%.....15
18..HOU.....-2.7%.....4-3......5.8%.....3.6.....18......-9.6%......27.......3.8%........9.......6.6%.....8
19..SEA.....-2.9%.....2-4.....-6.0%.....2.7.....23......-0.4%......16.....-10.9%........28.....20.9%.....26
20..SD......-4.0%.....3-3.....-5.6%.....3.4.....19.......1.2%......12......-6.3%........27......4.2%.....3
21..SF......-6.6%.....3-3.....-9.3%.....3.0.....21.......0.5%......13......-3.7%........22.....10.3%.....14
22..WAS....-10.0%.....2-5......0.6%.....2.9.....22.....-21.8%......32......14.5%........2.......5.3%.....6
23..BUF....-12.0%.....3-4....-13.1%.....3.1.....20......-2.0%......19.......3.3%........10.....15.4%.....20
24..CHI....-18.7%.....3-3....-16.1%.....2.6.....24.......0.3%......15.......2.3% ........14.....21.2%.....27
25..CAR....-29.8%.....2-4....-35.5%.....1.8.....25......-0.6%......17......19.3%........1......13.8%.....16
26..KC.....-31.6%.....1-6....-31.3%.....1.7.....26.......5.9%......10......-1.2%........19......9.0%.....11
27..CLE....-37.4%.....1-6....-50.5%.....1.6.....27......18.6%......1......-12.2%........30.....22.5%.....30
28..TB.....-44.4%.....0-7....-43.4%.....0.8.....32.......9.1%......6.......13.3% ........3.......7.2%.....9
29..TEN....-44.7%.....0-6....-57.1%.....1.3.....29......14.2%......2........0.8% ........16.....35.4%.....32
30..STL....-45.3%.....0-7....-53.0%.....1.5.....28......12.3%......4.......-5.1%........26......4.9%.....5
31..OAK....-49.7%.....2-5....-56.4%.....1.0.....30.......7.9%......8........2.3% ........13.....19.2%.....25
32..DET....-57.2%.....1-5....-65.2%.....0.9.....31......12.7%......3........0.4% ........18......9.0%.....10

[Smidgeon]

Look, our defense shut down Peterson, as MPF said. That was GREAT. Unfortunately, that meant that BF had way too much time to throw the ball and the end result was no different than if Peterson had run for 200 yards and 3 tds...

The way I see it, no matter how it felt during the game, GB didn't get completely torched by MIN. It wasn't a blowout victory. It wasn't 30-10. The final score was 30-23. Yeah, GB would have had to recover one of the two onside kicks to win it, but that was with GB having ten defenders and MIN having 12 on offense for much of the game (I'm counting Derrick Martin as part of the Viking's passing attack). With five to seven seconds per pass and barely a sniff of Favre's jersey by our pass rush, the final score difference should have been dramatically wider if the defense hadn't done something to account for the competitive advantage that was Derrick Martin.

I think that if Bigby had been there instead, the game would have been a lot less desperate than two attempted onside kicks and a prayer. I'm not saying that GB would have won, but it wasn't equivalent to AP getting 200 yards and 3 tds. It was equivalent to blown coverages by a player who was seeing his first significant playing time, hardly an indictment on the entire defense.

[retailguy]

Look, our defense shut down Peterson, as MPF said. That was GREAT. Unfortunately, that meant that BF had way too much time to throw the ball and the end result was no different than if Peterson had run for 200 yards and 3 tds...

The way I see it, no matter how it felt during the game, GB didn't get completely torched by MIN. It wasn't a blowout victory. It wasn't 30-10. The final score was 30-23. Yeah, GB would have had to recover one of the two onside kicks to win it, but that was with GB having ten defenders and MIN having 12 on offense for much of the game (I'm counting Derrick Martin as part of the Viking's passing attack). With five to seven seconds per pass and barely a sniff of Favre's jersey by our pass rush, the final score difference should have been dramatically wider if the defense hadn't done something to account for the competitive advantage that was Derrick Martin.

I think that if Bigby had been there instead, the game would have been a lot less desperate than two attempted onside kicks and a prayer. I'm not saying that GB would have won, but it wasn't equivalent to AP getting 200 yards and 3 tds. It was equivalent to blown coverages by a player who was seeing his first significant playing time, hardly an indictment on the entire defense.

Yeah, I know what you're saying. Not sure I agree totally, but I see your point.

I think Minny let up on the gas, and played a bit of prevent there. They definitely stopped blitzing on the last two packer drives. That allowed Rodgers to get into a groove.

But, you're right. Martin played poorly. Can't argue with that at all. Not sure the game was as close as you feel, but I hope that is the case on Sunday. If it is, that's good enough improvement for me in the past month.

BTW - WELCOME to the forum. Good to have you!

[Smidgeon]

Look, our defense shut down Peterson, as MPF said. That was GREAT. Unfortunately, that meant that BF had way too much time to throw the ball and the end result was no different than if Peterson had run for 200 yards and 3 tds...

The way I see it, no matter how it felt during the game, GB didn't get completely torched by MIN. It wasn't a blowout victory. It wasn't 30-10. The final score was 30-23. Yeah, GB would have had to recover one of the two onside kicks to win it, but that was with GB having ten defenders and MIN having 12 on offense for much of the game (I'm counting Derrick Martin as part of the Viking's passing attack). With five to seven seconds per pass and barely a sniff of Favre's jersey by our pass rush, the final score difference should have been dramatically wider if the defense hadn't done something to account for the competitive advantage that was Derrick Martin.

I think that if Bigby had been there instead, the game would have been a lot less desperate than two attempted onside kicks and a prayer. I'm not saying that GB would have won, but it wasn't equivalent to AP getting 200 yards and 3 tds. It was equivalent to blown coverages by a player who was seeing his first significant playing time, hardly an indictment on the entire defense.

Yeah, I know what you're saying. Not sure I agree totally, but I see your point.

I think Minny let up on the gas, and played a bit of prevent there. They definitely stopped blitzing on the last two packer drives. That allowed Rodgers to get into a groove.

But, you're right. Martin played poorly. Can't argue with that at all. Not sure the game was as close as you feel, but I hope that is the case on Sunday. If it is, that's good enough improvement for me in the past month.

BTW - WELCOME to the forum. Good to have you!

How many of the eight sacks were from blitzes (asking--don't know)? For goodness sake, JA got 4.5 of them on straight rushes simply because he didn't let up. With how long AR held onto the ball looking for receivers, it felt like they only rushed four most of the game and had everybody (except Derrick Martin) in coverage. I do know that their offense didn't let up. After all, BF did try the long throw towards the end of the game on 3rd and short (I think) that ended up incomplete in an attempt to ice the game. I'm not doubting that their defense let up (because I don't remember), I'm just wondering if their most effective rush was actually just making sure the receivers were covered and letting JA go to work.

Also: thanks. It's good to be here. I've been reading for a couple months and finally joined up. Looking forward to some good discussion.

[pack4to84]

Don't forget the Packers was a drop pass (D.Lee in the end zone on 4th down) away from tying the game. If Lee catches that well thrown ball in his breadbasket that game could have been different.

[Brandon494]

Don't forget the Packers was a drop pass (D.Lee in the end zone on 4th down) away from tying the game. If Lee catches that well thrown ball in his breadbasket that game could have been different.

Might have been different but I don't think it would have changed the outcome of the game, the Vikings pretty much went into chew the clock mode most of the 2nd half and let up a lot on offense.

[Smidgeon]

Don't forget the Packers was a drop pass (D.Lee in the end zone on 4th down) away from tying the game. If Lee catches that well thrown ball in his breadbasket that game could have been different.

Might have been different but I don't think it would have changed the outcome of the game, the Vikings pretty much went into chew the clock mode most of the 2nd half and let up a lot on offense.

Did they let up or did Capers' defense step up and the Vikings took what was available? They did throw the ball long along the sidelines on one of their last possessions. That doesn't seem to me to be letting up on offense. Now, I know that's one play, so I allow that if I'm just remembering the one play and the remainder of the second half was 'chew the clock' mode, then I withdraw my contention.

I agree that none of these surmisations mean that GB would have won. One team was rolling and one wasn't. I just think the game wasn't as completely one sided as people would like to think, which means this week's game could be more competitive.

[Partial]

I think this game will be more competitive, but I think they have an offense that is tough to defend. Favre can still wing it around as good as anybody and Peterson is the best in the biz.

I suspect the Pack will load up the box against Peterson on first and second down. I suspect that Caper's is keeping his gameplan under wraps with his comments, but I suspect we'll see a lot more heat sent against Favre on 3rd downs.

If the OL play is stabilized, I could see us winning this game. Rodgers was lights out Sunday and I could see this continuing.

[denverYooper]

Don't forget the Packers was a drop pass (D.Lee in the end zone on 4th down) away from tying the game. If Lee catches that well thrown ball in his breadbasket that game could have been different.

Might have been different but I don't think it would have changed the outcome of the game, the Vikings pretty much went into chew the clock mode most of the 2nd half and let up a lot on offense.

A TD to tie the game vs a TO on downs is a huge momentum difference. The game would definitely have been different... probably would have led to a FG difference btw victor and fallen instead of a TD.

[dahammer001]

Correction! The packers are ranked second defensively in the league


YDS YDS/G PASS P YDS/G RUSH R YDS/G PTS PTS/G
1 Denver 1575 262.5 1097 182.8 478 79.7 66 11.0
2 Green Bay 1629 271.5 1044 174.0 585 97.5 96 16.0
3 Carolina 1697 282.8 898 149.7 799 133.2 145 24.2
4 Philadelphia 1722 287.0 1141 190.2 581 96.8 116 19.3
5 Indianapolis 1750 291.7 1079 179.8 671 111.8 77 12.8
6 NY Giants 1834 262.0 1109 158.4 725 103.6 143 20.4
7 New Orleans 1840 306.7 1286 214.3 554 92.3 127 21.2
8 Seattle 1918 319.7 1322 220.3 596 99.3 109 18.2
9 Miami 1921 320.2 1401 233.5 520 86.7 152 25.3
10 San Francisco 1949 324.8 1416 236.0 533 88.8 122 20.3
11 Arizona 1951 325.2 1546 257.7 405 67.5 109 18.2
12 Chicago 1979 329.8 1322 220.3 657 109.5 144 24.0
13 Washington 1984 283.4 1154 164.9 830 118.6 123 17.6
14 San Diego 1994 332.3 1168 194.7 826 137.7 143 23.8
15 Baltimore 1996 332.7 1449 241.5 547 91.2 130 21.7
16 New England 2000 285.7 1234 176.3 766 109.4 98 14.0
17 Pittsburgh 2037 291.0 1501 214.4 536 76.6 129 18.4
18 NY Jets 2083 297.6 1270 181.4 813 116.1 104 14.9
19 Dallas 2087 347.8 1431 238.5 656 109.3 119 19.8
20 Jacksonville 2165 360.8 1572 262.0 593 98.8 147 24.5
21 Atlanta 2210 368.3 1504 250.7 706 117.7 114 19.0
22 Detroit 2225 370.8 1551 258.5 674 112.3 188 31.3
23 Minnesota 2310 330.0 1642 234.6 668 95.4 148 21.1
24 Cincinnati 2389 341.3 1773 253.3 616 88.0 128 18.3
25 Houston 2408 344.0 1599 228.4 809 115.6 158 22.6
26 Tennessee 2434 405.7 1864 310.7 570 95.0 198 33.0
27 Buffalo 2540 362.9 1333 190.4 1207 172.4 138 19.7
28 Tampa Bay 2635 376.4 1498 214.0 1137 162.4 203 29.0
29 Oakland 2640 377.1 1452 207.4 1188 169.7 177 25.3
30 Kansas City 2682 383.1 1765 252.1 917 131.0 181 25.9
31 St. Louis 2698 385.4 1747 249.6 951 135.9 211 30.1
32 Cleveland 2904 414.9 1710 244.3 1194 170.6 179 25.6
Glossary
YDS: Net total yards
YDS/G: Net yards per game
PASS: Net passing yards
P YDS/G: Net passing yards per game
RUSH: Rushing yards
R YDS/G: Rushing yards per game
PTS: Total points
PTS/G: Points per game
Statistics Glossary »

Data provided by Elias Sports Bureau
NFL Feedback »

[mission]

Correction! The packers are ranked second defensively in the league


YDS YDS/G PASS P YDS/G RUSH R YDS/G PTS PTS/G
1 Denver 1575 262.5 1097 182.8 478 79.7 66 11.0
2 Green Bay 1629 271.5 1044 174.0 585 97.5 96 16.0
3 Carolina 1697 282.8 898 149.7 799 133.2 145 24.2
4 Philadelphia 1722 287.0 1141 190.2 581 96.8 116 19.3
5 Indianapolis 1750 291.7 1079 179.8 671 111.8 77 12.8
6 NY Giants 1834 262.0 1109 158.4 725 103.6 143 20.4
7 New Orleans 1840 306.7 1286 214.3 554 92.3 127 21.2
8 Seattle 1918 319.7 1322 220.3 596 99.3 109 18.2
9 Miami 1921 320.2 1401 233.5 520 86.7 152 25.3
10 San Francisco 1949 324.8 1416 236.0 533 88.8 122 20.3
11 Arizona 1951 325.2 1546 257.7 405 67.5 109 18.2
12 Chicago 1979 329.8 1322 220.3 657 109.5 144 24.0
13 Washington 1984 283.4 1154 164.9 830 118.6 123 17.6
14 San Diego 1994 332.3 1168 194.7 826 137.7 143 23.8
15 Baltimore 1996 332.7 1449 241.5 547 91.2 130 21.7
16 New England 2000 285.7 1234 176.3 766 109.4 98 14.0
17 Pittsburgh 2037 291.0 1501 214.4 536 76.6 129 18.4
18 NY Jets 2083 297.6 1270 181.4 813 116.1 104 14.9
19 Dallas 2087 347.8 1431 238.5 656 109.3 119 19.8
20 Jacksonville 2165 360.8 1572 262.0 593 98.8 147 24.5
21 Atlanta 2210 368.3 1504 250.7 706 117.7 114 19.0
22 Detroit 2225 370.8 1551 258.5 674 112.3 188 31.3
23 Minnesota 2310 330.0 1642 234.6 668 95.4 148 21.1
24 Cincinnati 2389 341.3 1773 253.3 616 88.0 128 18.3
25 Houston 2408 344.0 1599 228.4 809 115.6 158 22.6
26 Tennessee 2434 405.7 1864 310.7 570 95.0 198 33.0
27 Buffalo 2540 362.9 1333 190.4 1207 172.4 138 19.7
28 Tampa Bay 2635 376.4 1498 214.0 1137 162.4 203 29.0
29 Oakland 2640 377.1 1452 207.4 1188 169.7 177 25.3
30 Kansas City 2682 383.1 1765 252.1 917 131.0 181 25.9
31 St. Louis 2698 385.4 1747 249.6 951 135.9 211 30.1
32 Cleveland 2904 414.9 1710 244.3 1194 170.6 179 25.6
Glossary
YDS: Net total yards
YDS/G: Net yards per game
PASS: Net passing yards
P YDS/G: Net passing yards per game
RUSH: Rushing yards
R YDS/G: Rushing yards per game
PTS: Total points
PTS/G: Points per game
Statistics Glossary »

Data provided by Elias Sports Bureau
NFL Feedback »

Which might make some sense if I could figure out why NYG is ranked #6 with 262.0 yards a game... :?:

[HarveyWallbangers]

Which might make some sense if I could figure out why NYG is ranked #6 with 262.0 yards a game... :?:

His rankings are sorted by yards given up total, not per game. Notice Washington is down the list also.

[mission]

Which might make some sense if I could figure out why NYG is ranked #6 with 262.0 yards a game... :?:

His rankings are sorted by yards given up total, not per game. Notice Washington is down the list also.

Gotcha. 3rd overall per game is a lot more impressive to me than second in the league counting our bye week.

[Waldo]

Look, our defense shut down Peterson, as MPF said. That was GREAT. Unfortunately, that meant that BF had way too much time to throw the ball and the end result was no different than if Peterson had run for 200 yards and 3 tds...

When you begin with an incorrect assumption, it leads down the path of even more incorrectness.

The Packers did NOT overcompensate to shut down Peterson. If anything they overcompensated their pass coverage.

The Packers have 2 things going that is making it tough for any team to successfully run on them, and a 3rd is coming online.

The last game is where Clay began to transition to full time starter. Clay's pass rush is so so, but he's doing an exceptional job against the run. Mn is about as good of a matchup as you could ask for for him. Mount McKinnie is big and slow. Awesome for demolishing hand in the ground DE's lined up across from him. Terrible for blocking a quick and nimble OLB.

AD is a very good play bouncer, if the middle is clogged up, he can bounce it outside, McKinnie can blow up the DE, and the LB's that overpursued are caught inside and can't catch him to the corner in a footrace (AD tends to bounce to his left). Clay is quick enough to stay off of McKinnie on outside contain, sheds blocks well, and is every bit as fast (if not faster) as AD over a short burst. Have you not noticed that no back has successfully turned the corner on his side when he's been in there, including AD? (every big or moderate run we've given up to that side came with Pops in the game).

GB's 3-4 DL is HUGE (I'm pretty sure that we have the biggest 3-4 DL in the NFL). They anchor well and it is tough for offenses to stretch them. They don't overpenetrate and get trapped. The 3-4 alignment is naturally superior for stopping a frontside stretch-backside cut. Hawk is doing a great job block eating. The mack backer has been very, very clean since the Cincy game (when the U-71 enabled an exploit that got the mack blocked up). Running between the tackles has been virtually pointless for our opponents unless backups are in the game at DE. Our 3-4 alignment is not ceding running yards, at all, especially now that Kamp is doing a better job at outside contain. When Jolly is on he's unblockable in the run game. Pickett has kept the A gaps shut down. Jenkins is actually the weak link.

In the 2-4 set the middle of the defense has done a good job swarming. Dom is mixing up outside contain between the CB's (via coverage schemes) and OLB's, and mixing gap crashing with 2 gapping in the front in run fits.

Big Okie is stout against the run.

The Barnett of old is coming online as well now. He's playing faster and is being kept clean, and is playing more aggressive each week.

Last time the problem was easy to see, but there was no solution. There is no coverage that you can run that can completely hide a S or CB. They were dropping here and there, playing Collins close in an effort to centerfield Martin to hide him, but now matter what, unless you are in pure M2M and he's at centerfield, any decent OC will have a guy that isolates him in coverage on every single play. We were overcompensating on the underneath stuff, trying to keep plays from entering Martin's zone. Against a garbage QB with a basic read system, or stupid OC (that didn't have a good QB's eye's on the field for him) it would have worked, but Brett could see through what we were doing and just waited for the handoff to Martin's zone. I bet he had less than 100 passing yards elsewhere, and close to, if not more than, 200 to WR's in Martin's zone. By centerfielding Martin and not bringing him into the box, we were running over-under zones to keep the CB's closer for run support and underneath passing, Brett went over the top of the CB's, or to the underneath guys covered by LB's (that normally would be covered by the SS).

Eliminate the S entirely from help zones, the coverage technique changes and gets tighter, and you have an extra man to rush.

[RashanGary]

I suspect the Pack will load up the box against Peterson on first and second down. I suspect that Caper's is keeping his gameplan under wraps with his comments, but I suspect we'll see a lot more heat sent against Favre on 3rd downs.

If the OL play is stabilized, I could see us winning this game. Rodgers was lights out Sunday and I could see this continuing.

I agree. 1st and 2nd down is going to be exactly like last time and the Vikings are stubborn enough to keep trying to run it (can't blame them).

3rd and long is going to involve much more exotic blitz packages designed to get favorable 1 on 1's and/or free hits on #4.

[Smidgeon]

GB's 3-4 DL is HUGE (I'm pretty sure that we have the biggest 3-4 DL in the NFL). They anchor well and it is tough for offenses to stretch them. They don't overpenetrate and get trapped. The 3-4 alignment is naturally superior for stopping a frontside stretch-backside cut. Hawk is doing a great job block eating. The mack backer has been very, very clean since the Cincy game (when the U-71 enabled an exploit that got the mack blocked up). Running between the tackles has been virtually pointless for our opponents unless backups are in the game at DE. Our 3-4 alignment is not ceding running yards, at all, especially now that Kamp is doing a better job at outside contain. When Jolly is on he's unblockable in the run game. Pickett has kept the A gaps shut down. Jenkins is actually the weak link.

Will Raji make this line better or worse as the season progresses? In other words, is he merely a back up this year and hopefully starting to dominate next year, or does he start making an impact? Mostly a goal to go defender?

And that doesn't even mention my far-fetched hope that Justin Harrell can stay healthy next year...

[Waldo]

GB's 3-4 DL is HUGE (I'm pretty sure that we have the biggest 3-4 DL in the NFL). They anchor well and it is tough for offenses to stretch them. They don't overpenetrate and get trapped. The 3-4 alignment is naturally superior for stopping a frontside stretch-backside cut. Hawk is doing a great job block eating. The mack backer has been very, very clean since the Cincy game (when the U-71 enabled an exploit that got the mack blocked up). Running between the tackles has been virtually pointless for our opponents unless backups are in the game at DE. Our 3-4 alignment is not ceding running yards, at all, especially now that Kamp is doing a better job at outside contain. When Jolly is on he's unblockable in the run game. Pickett has kept the A gaps shut down. Jenkins is actually the weak link.

Will Raji make this line better or worse as the season progresses? In other words, is he merely a back up this year and hopefully starting to dominate next year, or does he start making an impact? Mostly a goal to go defender?

And that doesn't even mention my far-fetched hope that Justin Harrell can stay healthy next year...

Rookie defensive lineman suck against the run. Always have, always will. Even the best point men at the college level with the best natural instincts take a while to get going.

Raji was not a great run stuffer in college and is not an intuitive run stopper. He's no Justin Harrell in that respect. He was a great A gap pass rusher, strong and stout at the point, but really not a special player that way. He's got the body, with coaching he'll get down pro run play. He can win the matchups easily, that is more than half the battle. Right now he has no sense of what the OL is doing to him and and guys are hitting him from every which way, holding him (the pro way that doesn't get called). 1 on 1 with a guy across from him, the guy across from him is toast. That isn't how the run works at the pro level except pass rushing. I suspect that he's at least 2-3 years away from being a dominant 3-4 NT against the run. In a 2-4-5, he'll be viable much sooner because he is such a good interior rusher. When he plays NT though, the biggest flaw of a 3-4, the useless NT (on pass plays), is not useless with Raji on the field.

Harrell didn't start to get it down until December of his rookie year, and he was much better his second year. Justin is a much more natural run defender than Raji. Some guys can just read the blocking of the whole line intuitively and let it carry them to the ball. Justin Harrell absolutely excels at that. Raji really doesn't.

Raji is still torquing his shoulders like a college DT. Once you see him flow square to the line, instead of twisting his shoulders, then you'll know that he's taken the next step. The next step after that is to apply some torque to blow through guys to the ball as the ball gets near. We're not going to see that this season out of him I suspect.

When Jolly plays square he's darn near unstoppable. But he has lapses and lets his shoulders get easily twisted. Two years ago he had it down. Last year the whole season was a lapse for him, aside from a couple of games. This year he appears to have it down again, aside from a play here or there.

[Smidgeon]

GB's 3-4 DL is HUGE (I'm pretty sure that we have the biggest 3-4 DL in the NFL). They anchor well and it is tough for offenses to stretch them. They don't overpenetrate and get trapped. The 3-4 alignment is naturally superior for stopping a frontside stretch-backside cut. Hawk is doing a great job block eating. The mack backer has been very, very clean since the Cincy game (when the U-71 enabled an exploit that got the mack blocked up). Running between the tackles has been virtually pointless for our opponents unless backups are in the game at DE. Our 3-4 alignment is not ceding running yards, at all, especially now that Kamp is doing a better job at outside contain. When Jolly is on he's unblockable in the run game. Pickett has kept the A gaps shut down. Jenkins is actually the weak link.

Will Raji make this line better or worse as the season progresses? In other words, is he merely a back up this year and hopefully starting to dominate next year, or does he start making an impact? Mostly a goal to go defender?

And that doesn't even mention my far-fetched hope that Justin Harrell can stay healthy next year...

Harrell didn't start to get it down until December of his rookie year, and he was much better his second year. Justin is a much more natural run defender than Raji. Some guys can just read the blocking of the whole line intuitively and let it carry them to the ball. Justin Harrell absolutely excels at that. Raji really doesn't.

So Harrell still has a chance to be a player? Are injuries his only obstacle?

[Waldo]

For sure. He gets over his back injury 100% and he could easily turn into a dominant player.

He has the size and natural strength to win in a phonebooth against almost any OL, and can play through (or hold) doubles just fine. (Put 30 pounds on him, so he can conserve energy, and he'd be a great fit at NT).

He'll never be that dominant DT that is in the backfield on every play. That isn't his game. His game is to be blocked, and still prevent the RB from getting past him on darn near every play. He's the kind of lineman that doesn't need linebackers behind him. But he doesn't do it the T-2 UT way by shooting gaps. He's a 2 gapper that stays back, lets the play develop, then stops it.

Justin is exactly what you look for in a 3-4 LDE.

If I had to choose between a 100% healthy Harrell and a 100% healthy Raji.....it would be a tough choice. Justin is the better run defender, Raji the better pass rusher.

[Smidgeon]

For sure. He gets over his back injury 100% and he could easily turn into a dominant player.

He has the size and natural strength to win in a phonebooth against almost any OL, and can play through (or hold) doubles just fine. (Put 30 pounds on him, so he can conserve energy, and he'd be a great fit at NT).

He'll never be that dominant DT that is in the backfield on every play. That isn't his game. His game is to be blocked, and still prevent the RB from getting past him on darn near every play. He's the kind of lineman that doesn't need linebackers behind him. But he doesn't do it the T-2 UT way by shooting gaps. He's a 2 gapper that stays back, lets the play develop, then stops it.

Justin is exactly what you look for in a 3-4 LDE.

If I had to choose between a 100% healthy Harrell and a 100% healthy Raji.....it would be a tough choice. Justin is the better run defender, Raji the better pass rusher.

Sounds like the pairing of Raji and Harrell (providing injuries are overcome) could make for a long term dominating line. Of course, that's why they were both first round picks.

Just think, if Harrell can recover and turn into a player, the front 7 would have 5 GB first round picks (Matthews, Hawk, Barnett, Raji, Harrell). I imagine that's a bit above league average...

[HarveyWallbangers]

That's the big problem. IF Harrell stays healthy. It's a long shot.

[Smidgeon]

Granted it's a long shot. But at least it isn't Mandarich bust territory.

[Partial]

Has there been any updates on his health since going on IR? Is he in need of more surgery? What the heck is wrong with his back that all of these surgeries are not fixing the problem? I certainly would not be playing ball if my back is hosed. More to life than football.

[Smidgeon]

Raji is still torquing his shoulders like a college DT. Once you see him flow square to the line, instead of twisting his shoulders, then you'll know that he's taken the next step. The next step after that is to apply some torque to blow through guys to the ball as the ball gets near. We're not going to see that this season out of him I suspect.

When Jolly plays square he's darn near unstoppable. But he has lapses and lets his shoulders get easily twisted. Two years ago he had it down. Last year the whole season was a lapse for him, aside from a couple of games. This year he appears to have it down again, aside from a play here or there.

So is the idea for the DL to keep their shoulders parallel to the line of scrimmage or squared towards the ball? I would assume the former, but I'd rather ask to make sure.

P.S. Waldo, thanks for your 3-4 analysis in your blog back when. I learned a lot about a scheme with which I was utterly unfamiliar and the responsibilities within that scheme.

[CaptainKickass]

WTF?

How the hell did y'all let an intelligent, packer oriented football discussion break out in this forum of high drama?

Ooops, sorry, wrong forum my bad.



:D


(In case you take the above too seriously...i suggest you look up the word "Sarcasm")

[sharpe1027]

Has there been any updates on his health since going on IR? Is he in need of more surgery? What the heck is wrong with his back that all of these surgeries are not fixing the problem? I certainly would not be playing ball if my back is hosed. More to life than football.

Back surgery often doesn't fix the underlying problem, leading to recurrence of the problem. Some studies suggest physical rehab is just as good or better than surgery in the long run. It is certainly cheaper and safer.

[bobblehead]

yea, not counting harrell out, but certainly not counting on him.

what waldo said about DL taking a bit to get it at the pro level bears out again and again. A lot of guys seem to "flip the switch" in year 2 or 3. Pickett was considered a bust (in the way Hawk is a "bust") coming from St. Louis, but how many packer fans would trade him now?

[MichiganPackerFan]

WTF?

How the hell did y'all let an intelligent, packer oriented football discussion break out in this forum of high drama?


Newbie. We'll corrupt him sooner or later. No one can resist our power.

(Seriously: nice discussion, keep it comin'!)

[Waldo]

Granted it's a long shot. But at least it isn't Mandarich bust territory.

Mandarich couldn't play, even when he was healthy.

Justin when healthy, has had young lineman growing pains, but was ahead of the curve and looked very, very good at doing some things. Lineman, especially high picks, are always evaluated on their sack numbers by a majority of fans and analysts. That isn't Justin's game unfortunately, so he's a hard sell.

I've always been at a loss comparing him to another player in the league. There literally is nobody like him. A bigger, stronger Ty Warren perhaps. He's a skinny mobile NT. Lacking the heavy mass, he couldn't play NT and sustain it for multiple games. The trade off in that regard is you get a guy that can very reliably 2 gap 1 on 1 or when single + chip blocked, that has the mobility, instincts, and power, to ride a guy down a gap, or even two, out of his responsibility, that is also mobile enough to break off the blocking and chase a play to the edge. His pass rush, while nothing special, is a pocket collapsing push, be he can get to an evading QB, and does give more rush than most NT's.

When you look at his measurements, you can see his game. Overall he's not a very explosive athlete, nor fast. Relative to guys his size he's fast enough but not more, but he's much faster than the guys he plays like (big NT's). He has good agility and balance though. But he is strong as heck, and it isn't "weight room strength". Plus he has a very large and long frame.

Raji is so different. Raji is freakishly explosive and fast for his size, but no faster than Justin. Far more explosive. But he's not as strong and powerful as Justin. For Raji to destroy the guy in front of him, it comes from the initial pop out of his stance, or he gets moving, lowers his pads, and explodes through a guy. Justin doesn't/can't do that. He's much more apt to toss the guy in front of him aside like a rag doll while engaged, or carry the guy in front of him along and toss him into the back (he's done both in the pros). Raji though has a lot of natural leverage that Justin doesn't have and has a heck of a natural anchor, being a bottom heavy athlete.

[Waldo]

yea, not counting harrell out, but certainly not counting on him.

what waldo said about DL taking a bit to get it at the pro level bears out again and again. A lot of guys seem to "flip the switch" in year 2 or 3. Pickett was considered a bust (in the way Hawk is a "bust") coming from St. Louis, but how many packer fans would trade him now?

Of the 3 best and most pro ready run defenders to come out this decade, Wilfork, Hampton, and Ngata, none of the 3 were really much more than decent by the end of their rookie years. All of them started slow.

Raji was a step below them in run ability on draft day. But he was a better pass rusher than all of them.

Vince is definitely the most similar player to Raji in the league. There are a lot of similarities to their games. Both are built very similar, though I'd take Raji's raw athletic talent, his measurements, over Vince any day, though Vince has a little longer arms.

[Smidgeon]

Granted it's a long shot. But at least it isn't Mandarich bust territory.

I've always been at a loss comparing him to another player in the league. There literally is nobody like him. A bigger, stronger Ty Warren perhaps. He's a skinny mobile NT. Lacking the heavy mass, he couldn't play NT and sustain it for multiple games. The trade off in that regard is you get a guy that can very reliably 2 gap 1 on 1 or when single + chip blocked, that has the mobility, instincts, and power, to ride a guy down a gap, or even two, out of his responsibility, that is also mobile enough to break off the blocking and chase a play to the edge. His pass rush, while nothing special, is a pocket collapsing push, be he can get to an evading QB, and does give more rush than most NT's.

When you look at his measurements, you can see his game. Overall he's not a very explosive athlete, nor fast. Relative to guys his size he's fast enough but not more, but he's much faster than the guys he plays like (big NT's). He has good agility and balance though. But he is strong as heck, and it isn't "weight room strength". Plus he has a very large and long frame.

So despite the frustration voiced by fans (mostly due to the injuries and inability to stay on the field) and the pundits who claimed this was a reach pick in Round 1 (despite reports a couple other teams were targeting him in the same area), what you're saying is that JH has the talent and skill to be worth that pick if his health wasn't a factor?