Complain about T2 here

[Tony Oday]

Lets get it on record so we can see if he knows this better than out of shape internet posters ;)


What I think he did right:
AJ HAWK STUD!!! picked up Hodge and used two high picks on the oline. Resigned Barry, backfired because of injury. Signed Taylor, Pickett and Manuel. Nice VET talent on the defense to go with our developing and current talent. Resign/sign three WR that basically have to play with a chip on their shoulders if they want to play in the NFL. Paying DD and Kamp. Resigning Green and Davenpoop to one year contracts.

I love the move to a defensive team because all the flash in the season is gone once the defenses come to play in the playoffs!


What I think he did wrong: Woodson. I like having woodson dont get me wrong but we could have had Ty Law for much cheaper and in my mind he was the safer guy. Vinetari(sp?) SHOULD HAVE SHOWED HIM THE MONEY! Faine for a fourth rounder? sounded like a steal to me. Wanted to get a WR vet and a guard.

[woodbuck27]

For the most part you Tony and I are almost identically aligned.

The way that T2 trades down in the draft, made Jeff Faine a no brainer, if in fact he could have been had for a fourth.

I agree that after not acquiring any experience for OUR OL before the draft, T2 had to select on the OL as a high priority. So we got Colledge and Spitz that will develop - we trust in about three years.

Yet, what of this season and next ? Jeff Faine had to be OUR's, as an intelligent, a prudent must.

The move to bring in Charles Woodson will kick T2 in the ass, as I see it. I hope I'm mistaken there, but T2 panicked and suddenly made some deal for ' that name player ', that he always said he'd avoid, and he should have waited to at least get Charles Woodson at a better $ cost to us.

It's difficult to say if Ty Law would have entertained T2 in being a Packer, as OUR fortunes don't fit Ty Law's time table. Ty Law stated clearly, at the beginning of Free Agency, that he wanted to play for a Super Bowl contender - to get another ring before retiring.

Charles Woodson may have 'in fact' been the most realistic fit then.

I really like what T2 did in the draft and in acquiring Ben Taylor - regarding the upgrade I see in OUR Linebacker position.

I wanted a legitimate #1 - #2 WR as well. A lock to perform as a starting WR. All I see is again, this time this year, Donald Driver as we had a disgruntled Javon Walker entering TC last year. We may be OK at WR, if the WR's can just run the proper routes and fight for the dam ball - protect the ball - if out of position to make the reception.

I ask anyone. Why did T2 ignore OUR team in a general sense on Offence. WHY ?

A decent offence will protect the "D" from wearing down. We don't have all that much depth, to have OUR "D" maintain it (adversity) on the field more than the "O". We have to win "the battle of the clock", and that means we have to run the ball and not be forced to the pass, on so many 3rd and longs.

That all hinges on the effectiveness of OUR OL which is in worse shape, certainly experience wise, than it was at this time in 2005.

Why did T2 ignore OUR team on offence except to fill need not real need?

[BallHawk]

Yeah, Ty Law cared more about the team, Woodson was more the money. And by no means do I blame him for it. But I believe that if Woodson would of gone to Tampa, we would of been much more unstable in the secondary, right now.

[Bossman641]

How many holes do you expect TT to fill in one offseason?

For the past couple of years we have been a one-sided team. The offense was terrific while the defense seemed to never improve.

TT is turning the tide the other way. It appeasrs as though he is molding the team into a cold-weather, defensive-oriented team. This offseason the focus was on making over the DB's, LB's, and filling in the guard spots. Next offseason I figure there will be some major additions to the DL, RB, and WR positions.

The one huge gamble he is taking is on the RB's. I would have liked to see him either pick someone up in the draft or FA.

[Fosco33]

The only time I've complained about Ted is before last season (January 04) when he didn't bid to keep our pro-bowl line together.

It definitely hurt the running game last year and forced Favre to throw early (thus increasing INTs) b/c he's so focused on staying healthy (rightly so!).

I've always said, it's hard to know why decisions are made (whether in gov't, business) unless you're the guy with the info. It's easy to complain - harder to make tough decisions.

[Partial]

How many holes do you expect TT to fill in one offseason?

For the past couple of years we have been a one-sided team. The offense was terrific while the defense seemed to never improve.

TT is turning the tide the other way. It appeasrs as though he is molding the team into a cold-weather, defensive-oriented team. This offseason the focus was on making over the DB's, LB's, and filling in the guard spots. Next offseason I figure there will be some major additions to the DL, RB, and WR positions.

The one huge gamble he is taking is on the RB's. I would have liked to see him either pick someone up in the draft or FA.

It seems to me the way he built this team is for the end of the season this year. For starters, he is banking on a lot of rooks. Naturally, they'll be up to speed much better by the end of the season. Furthermore, he is clearly building the defense like you said. In doing so, it is going to be very, very tough to win in the cold against a good defense (notice the two teams everyone talked about at the end of the year as tough to beat were chicago and pittsburg - cold weather, smashmouth style teams). Restoring the lambeau mistique in december would be amazing.

They are going to have a very tough week 5-11. Very, very tough. In weeks 12-17 though, they should go 4-1, and definitely win every home game. The last game of the season is chicago is going to be tough.

[Tony Oday]

Oh I forgot I wanted him to take Stoval! He is the guy that I think would LOVE to be catching balls from Favre.

[RashanGary]

I've always said, it's hard to know why decisions are made (whether in gov't, business) unless you're the guy with the info. It's easy to complain - harder to make tough decisions.

BINGO!!

I know I do it too, but as I get older and wiser I like to think I do less and less.

[Noodle]

Except for the Aints in week 2 and the bye in week 6 I think weeks 1-11 are going to be brutal.

Not making a run at Faine was a big mistake. Why TT thinks we're going to be fine with two new guards and a relatively new center is beyond me.

I also think TT has blown some personnel matters -- Walker (should have come in with love sooner), Bates (should have come in with love sooner), and Harris (should have come in with love sooner).

I've said before that TT will ultimately be judged on M3. But I'm sure M3 wishes the boss would give him a few more bullets.

[woodbuck27]

How many holes do you expect TT to fill in one offseason?

For the past couple of years we have been a one-sided team. The offense was terrific while the defense seemed to never improve.

TT is turning the tide the other way. It appeasrs as though he is molding the team into a cold-weather, defensive-oriented team. This offseason the focus was on making over the DB's, LB's, and filling in the guard spots. Next offseason I figure there will be some major additions to the DL, RB, and WR positions.

The one huge gamble he is taking is on the RB's. I would have liked to see him either pick someone up in the draft or FA.

Bossman641.

I certainly believe that T2 did alot to improve OUR "D". I have little complaint there, except what it cost us to acquire Charles Woodson and given his attitude and injury history - we paid a high price for his services.

Obviously T2 is re-building OUR "D" as a first priority. The fact remains that we need a balanced attack - more on Offence, or the "D' gets worn out by mid-season.

Too many cookies in that one jar.

[woodbuck27]

The only time I've complained about Ted is before last season (January 04) when he didn't bid to keep our pro-bowl line together.

It definitely hurt the running game last year and forced Favre to throw early (thus increasing INTs) b/c he's so focused on staying healthy (rightly so!).

I've always said, it's hard to know why decisions are made (whether in gov't, business) unless you're the guy with the info. It's easy to complain - harder to make tough decisions.

That is very fair Fosco33.

I'm not the tough ass, hard on T2 Packer fan - that maybe I sometimes come across as being.

I believe, that this is really the season of assessment for T2, and we will really experience a ton of change come next season. Thus all the one year contracts we saw signed at the beginning of Free Agency.

I'm more of a transition approach kinda guy - that doesn't believe you necessarily have to tear the house down to re-build it. In that sense I offer not a cynical, rather a conservative alternative and viewpoint.

A Progressive Conservative alternative.

[woodbuck27]

Oh I forgot I wanted him to take Stoval! He is the guy that I think would LOVE to be catching balls from Favre.

Maurice Stovall. Position: WR
Height: 6-4 Weight: 229 Born: 02/21/1985
College: Notre Dame NFL Experience: Rookie

I too believe, he'll do well for the Buc's.

Great size and has a way of getting to and catching the tough pass. They are looking for him to be their slot receiver, according to the stuff i'm reading out of the Buc's camp.

[woodbuck27]

I've always said, it's hard to know why decisions are made (whether in gov't, business) unless you're the guy with the info. It's easy to complain - harder to make tough decisions.

BINGO!!

I know I do it too, but as I get older and wiser I like to think I do less and less.

Ala Muhammed Ali:

"The older I get the more I understand that I don't understand."

[Lare]

I really don't have any complaints as to the moves TT did make (other than I think Woodson is a real gamble), but moreso the moves he didn't make.

He went into the offseason with around $35 million in salary cap space, spent 1/3 of it on Woodson and signed Taylor, Pickett and Manuel. We now sit around $10 million in salary cap space left (some of which will be used on signing the remaining rookies) and still have major holes on the offense at RB, WR, OL and backup TE,FB and maybe even QB. We also have question marks at K, P, PR and KR.

I guess I just don't understand why with all that money he didn't do more to improve the team. But ultimately he'll live and die by the decisions he's making. If we don't see significant improvement in another year or so, TT will be looking for a new job. And he won't have anybody to blame but himself.

[Fosco33]

I really don't have any complaints as to the moves TT did make (other than I think Woodson is a real gamble), but moreso the moves he didn't make.

He went into the offseason with around $35 million in salary cap space, spent 1/3 of it on Woodson and signed Taylor, Pickett and Manuel. We now sit around $10 million in salary cap space left (some of which will be used on signing the remaining rookies) and still have major holes on the offense at RB, WR, OL and backup TE,FB and maybe even QB. We also have question marks at K, P, PR and KR.

I guess I just don't understand why with all that money he didn't do more to improve the team. But ultimately he'll live and die by the decisions he's making. If we don't see significant improvement in another year or so, TT will be looking for a new job. And he won't have anybody to blame but himself.

Welcome to PR, Lare.

I think you're right - he could've made more plays in FA but it was relatively weak this year, and he's a believer in getting more bodies cheaper through the draft.

But you're right, he'll live/die by his style of decision making.

[4and12to12and4]

Well, I fully believe that TT didn't address the offense this offseason because he and MM are convinced that we actually have one of the better offenses in the league. That may sound ridiculous, but is it, really? Last year we were decimated by injury. Everybody knows that. Heck, even before Green went down, there is speculation that he was injured in those first few games, and he finally blew his knee out which was already bothering him. So, let's look at it a little differently, maybe from TT's perspective.

Before last year, and the injuries, we had always been one of the better offenses in the league. So, my guess is that TT and MM think that we will be just fine on that side of the ball as long as Green comes back healthy, and even if only one or two of the receivers besides Driver shows up.

I mean, think about it, if Green comes back healthy we have one of the best backs in the NFL. If not, we have a couple of pretty good backups, as far as backups go. Not too many teams have two "excellent" running backs on their team, so why should we expect TT to?

We have a great QB at the helm, and his backup is now more experienced, so that's an upgrade from last year.

We have a great #1 receiver, and enough potential bodies in camp to ensure at least one should rise to the challenge at the #2 spot. Most teams don't have two "great" receivers, so why should we expect TT to have done that?

We have ample talent at TE, more than most teams. And, other than Hutch (who would've cost a fortune) there really wasn't much out there to go after in FA that would have been better than the rookies we got in the draft.

So, if healthy, it's not that far of a reach to think that this team is structured on the offensive side to be decent to good (based on the OL gelling quickly enough).

So, he improves the special teams and defense about as much as he possibly could, because those were truly our weaknesses last year. Is that possible? Could there be something to that, at all?

Probably not. Anyways, I will say that I wish he would've upped the ante for Vinateri (sp?). That is the one criticism I have of him. We may be in a world of hurt if these camp legs don't get real good real fast. However, that is ALOT of $$$$$$$$$$$ to spend on a kicker!! I can certainly understand if he had a number he just wouldn't go above. By the way, why didn't we go after Edinger. I thought he was pretty darn good. I mean, I know he botched a few last year, but so did Longwell. These guys aren't perfect, but I know that Edinger has a hell of a leg. He was still on the market well after Vinateri went to Indy.

[Bretsky]

OK, I have issues with TT. Here's a start.

Aaron Rodgers; I'll leave it at that (hope I'm wrong)

Bad Free Agent Choices last year; went into 2005 season with horrific options at OG

Was caught sleeping through first part of free agency and forgot we had 35MIL to spend and our OL was the biggest team weakness last year; simply put he should have done better in free agency with 35MIL to spend

Is taking us into 2006 Season with wildcards at OG once again.

Rodgers was a bad pick with much much better WR's like Demetrius Williams out there (Hope I'm wrong)

Gave Javon Walker away for way below fair value

[woodbuck27]

4and12to12and4 - Good post, nice slant.

Too bad T2 didn't sign Vinateri. Kickers like him and the former Ryan Longwell we knew before last season, win alot of games for their teams.

The offence sets it up and . . . BINGO Three to win !

A kicker has to be very good like A.V. . . . as automatic as he is.

We don't have that, as yet.

[Green Bud Packer]

mike shermans years as g.m. were as much if not more responsible for the packs 4-12 year as was mr thompsons one year as g.m. i'm giving the guy some slack for one more season and off season and then i'll rip him a new one if deserved.til then i'm gonna go with the flow and keep faith in ted.

[RIPackerFan]

A lot has been spoken about the O-line and lack of TT addressing it. Does the implementation of a new scheme - that only a few other team run, affect the decision. While an experienced lineman may be valuable, if you have to retrain him to the zone blocking scheme, what do you lose by training a rookie (who is cheaper and hungrier).

I think that TT and Jags picked out O-linemen in the draft who had some experience in zone-blocking and were mean - they will have to be with the cut blocks that they plan to do. And while a veteran o-lineman would have been a plus, it wasn't a necessity.

As far as addressing other pictures on the offense, I think the offense free agents and rookie pool was weak this year (especially at WR). TT has constructed most contracts so that next year, we should be one of the top money teams again, and we can address any offensive issues at that time, when the market is better.

[Bossman641]

A lot has been spoken about the O-line and lack of TT addressing it. Does the implementation of a new scheme - that only a few other team run, affect the decision. While an experienced lineman may be valuable, if you have to retrain him to the zone blocking scheme, what do you lose by training a rookie (who is cheaper and hungrier).

I think that TT and Jags picked out O-linemen in the draft who had some experience in zone-blocking and were mean - they will have to be with the cut blocks that they plan to do. And while a veteran o-lineman would have been a plus, it wasn't a necessity.

As far as addressing other pictures on the offense, I think the offense free agents and rookie pool was weak this year (especially at WR). TT has constructed most contracts so that next year, we should be one of the top money teams again, and we can address any offensive issues at that time, when the market is better.

I agree 100%. No matter what veteran guards would have been picked up they still would have had to learn the ZBS just like the rookies. They'd probably have a little leg up on the rooks, but not a huge amount.

[Noodle]

I can't believe that's the case. I'd like to hear what ND and some others with real line experience have to say, but I think there's a huge adjustment for a rook just getting used to the speed and power of the pro game. Additionally, technique is just brutally critical at the pro level, whereas guys could be much less precise in college and just out athlete the other dude.

And pass blocking will be the same in ZBS as it is under any other system.

So I'm thinking our rooks, good as they may be, are going to suffer some big-time growing pains this year, just getting used to the NFL environment. Not so with a good (this would exclude O'Dwyer) OL vet. So I think our failure to bring in a quality interior lineman is going to hurt us this year.

Next year, if our rooks pan out, we'll of course benefit for them having been bloodied. But I'm afraid Brett's gonna get bloodied in the process.

[KYPack]

I can't believe that's the case. I'd like to hear what ND and some others with real line experience have to say, but I think there's a huge adjustment for a rook just getting used to the speed and power of the pro game. Additionally, technique is just brutally critical at the pro level, whereas guys could be much less precise in college and just out athlete the other dude.

And pass blocking will be the same in ZBS as it is under any other system.

So I'm thinking our rooks, good as they may be, are going to suffer some big-time growing pains this year, just getting used to the NFL environment. Not so with a good (this would exclude O'Dwyer) OL vet. So I think our failure to bring in a quality interior lineman is going to hurt us this year.

Next year, if our rooks pan out, we'll of course benefit for them having been bloodied. But I'm afraid Brett's gonna get bloodied in the process.

I agree 100%. TT preaches building thru the draft, but we have not added a vet guard during this drought. A vet should be added for depth if nothing else.

I am not only critical of TT, but the entire part of our organization that scouts the league. The Packers brought in two of the worst vet FA guards last year. O'Dwyer was washed up and Klemm really wasn't a guard. That was the best our guys could come up with?

That was total bullshit and I don't see a big change in this area.

[RIPackerFan]

Colledge and Spitz don't look like "talent" guys, but more of technique guys. So I feel more comfortable with them, then with one of the rookies that were all talent.

Also, the ZBS has historically done more with less (see Denver and Atlanta). Now, I am not saying that an experienced lineman would have been better, but in the scheme of things, I wouldn't have traded an experienced O-lineman for Kampman or Woodson (who provides some needed depth at the DB position) - and to get a top O-lineman, we would have had to pay that much (how much did Hutch get again from the Vikings - Crazy).

[woodbuck27]

mike shermans years as g.m. were as much if not more responsible for the packs 4-12 year as was mr thompsons one year as g.m. i'm giving the guy some slack for one more season and off season and then i'll rip him a new one if deserved.til then i'm gonna go with the flow and keep faith in ted.

Ahhhh. That avatar of yours suits your post.

You'll - "Walk The Line". Cool.

Thatsaarealgud. Till the time comes, you can dig out and study that instruction manual on tearing new assholes,

Post some of that info. on here - will ya? Just in case.

I was on a Raider Board today, and those fellas are meaner than a polecat over Mr. Porter. Talk about tearing new assholes. LOL

I learned alot of new BAD language, on that site..

[GBRulz]

With all that money, you'd think we could have at least gotten a kicker...

In general though, FA wasn't all that great this year and I think TT waited too long to act on it. Wasn't he out of town or something for the first week of FA? Lots of new cap space for teams and minimal FA's to go around..... not a good combination.

[MJZiggy]

I wonder if he took his time because he really just didn't want most of 'em--though I'm truly sad we didn't get Vin. (may he have a season-long case of the shanks for using us like that).

[woodbuck27]

I wonder if he took his time because he really just didn't want most of 'em--though I'm truly sad we didn't get Vin. (may he have a season-long case of the shanks for using us like that).

If T2 was going to allow Ryan Longwell to walk, he had to go out and get at least, as good a kicker as Lonwell proved to be through 2004.

T2 really washed on that one. he has to get some DAM balls - come out of himself more.

I know I'm addressing this, to a solid wait and see Packer fan that will not allow doubt (yet0 to creep in regarding Ted Thompson's ways as OUR GM.

Sorry. I don't trust him yet Ziggy.

He may be a decent person, but can we survive his learning curve to be a GREAT Packer GM? The real Ted Thompson has to arrive soon.

He's not Lombardi - WOLF - Holmgren . . .and many are rightfully so, glad he's not Mike Sherman, but he's Ted thompson and he has em, so he needs to use em.

BALLS !

[MJZiggy]

He's not Lombardi - WOLF - Holmgren . . .

Maybe not, but he came highly recommended by two out of the three.

[woodbuck27]

He's not Lombardi - WOLF - Holmgren . . .

Maybe not, but he came highly recommended by two out of the three.

Good mornin' - Dear Packer fan sister.

Out hunting crow this AM early ? :mrgreen:

[RIPackerFan]

I was disappointed by the Pack not getting Vin - he was money in bad conditions.

However, he could not kick-off - he was like Longwell, where his kickoffs would land on the 20 and the opposing offense would start at the 35.

I don't think TT wanted to pay a kicker that much, when he couldn't excel off of kickoffs too. I can see the reasoning behind that. Not that I necessary agree, but I can understand.

[GBRulz]

From what i have seen of Vin, his kicks went in the endzone...

[Tony Oday]

Another positive that I forgot is Kendrick Allen. I guess he is looking like a stud! Im liking it!

GO DEFENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MJZiggy]

While we're at it, Ruvell's gonna sneak in there and blow everyone away!

[woodbuck27]

While we're at it, Ruvell's gonna sneak in there and blow everyone away!

I want Ruvell Martin to PUSH like Hell for a Roster spot.

Robert Ferguson has to get his atitude . . .to REAL.

Same goes for Rod Gardner.

Fella's like Martin and Boerigter arn't in Green Bay to fail.

It realy starts tomorrow Packer fans.The long wait for us is hours away.

GO PACKERS !!

[HarveyWallbangers]

From what i have seen of Vin, his kicks went in the endzone...

Vinatieri had 10 touchbacks in his 61 kickoffs last year--which isn't a bad rate anymore really. I don't think he's overpowering on kickoffs though.

[RIPackerFan]

A comparison:

Last yr. Vin's average kick-off was 61.7 yards, with an average return of 21.9 yards.

Last yr, Longwell's average kick-off was 60.9 yards, with an average return of 21.6 yards.

The difference between the two net numbers is Vin has Longwell beat by .5 (39.8 net vs. 39.3 net) yards.

Akers had a 62.6 average kick-off, with an average return of 19.5, with a net of 43.1.

Listening to NE fans, they used to constantly complain about giving good field position to the opposing team due to Vin's kicking.

I am not saying I didn't want him, I just think to overpay for Vin, TT probably wanted more than just average kick-offs. (And we would have needed to overpay, since Vin wanted to play indoors).