Interesting article on how to approach the Vikings offense

[RashanGary]

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091030/PKR01/91030157/1058&referrer=PKR01CAROUSEL

I have a couple choice quotes that I think say a lot.

CAPERS
“We’d obviously like to get more pressure,” Capers said. “But I will say this — and you see it all the time with the way they’re set up offensively and Brett’s always done a good job of this — he’s going to get the ball out of hands quick. The first game, there were two times I can think of where we had guys come flat free inside, and he just got rid of the ball. He’s played for so long, and he has good field vision. He has a good feel for when pressure’s coming, and he has to get the ball out of his hands.”

CAPERS
“There were 62 plays in that game and in 58 of them, they had 212 yards, but in four plays, they had 124 yards,” Capers said. “You aren’t going to beat a good team if you give them 124 yards on four plays. If we can go back and take out those four plays, that’s the key. You can say that about a lot of games, but the key is the last two weeks you haven’t seen four plays for 124 yards.”

CHILDRESS
“I have yet to hear a defensive coordinator in this league say, ‘I’ll tell you what we’re going to do, we’re going to come in and concede the run, and we’re going to take away the pass in this game,’” Vikings coach Brad Childress said. “There’s just nobody that does it that way regardless of who your running back is unless you’re completely one-dimensional. Somewhere, you have to take something (away). Generally with us, at least from what I’ve seen, they’re going to approach it from the standpoint of trying to get an eighth guy in the box. Everybody in the NFL does it that way.”

BARNETT
“I think you have to have a good balance of showing and not coming and coming and not showing,” Barnett said. “He’s obviously getting rid of the ball, but if we show and he gets rid of it to the wrong place, then we benefit. We can’t be scared to bring pressure just because he’s getting rid of the ball. Sometimes he might not be able to get rid of the ball with the type of DBs that we have.”


1. Favre gets rid of the ball really quickly. He's seen everything. Unless your blitz is really disguised well, chances are Favre will know where he's going and get it there before you get to him. He also is savvy at setting his protection, so of you're showing something, chances are, he's goign to have his guys in position to get it blocked. Getting to him is easier said than done.

2. Derrick Martin was responsible for screwing up his coverage on 3 big plays. The 4th big one, I'm not sure who's fault it was, but being assignment sure so as not to give up big plays is going to be key. Bigby back and Collins back at FS instead of SS helps a lot.

3. Every defense that plays the Vikings starts with 8 in the box. Childeress said it himself. There has been a strange Favre loving rumor that teams are stopping Favre first. Let's get that out of our heads. Favre sees primarily 1 deep safety on 1st and 2nd down. AP is enemy #1 when you play the Vikings and that isn't up for debate. On first and 2nd down, we're goign to be giving it to Favre, so if he has a good rating on 1st and 2nd, don't flip out. It's going to be on 3rd down that you measure our pass defense.

4. Barnett talks about 3rd down. 3rd down is going to be about disguising our blitzes and coverages well. I've said this a few times over the last few days, but hearing it from Barnett makes me think they see it too. He's going to win some. He's a good player. But, if he thinks one thing is happening before the snap, and then something completely different happens after the snap and you get to him right away, you can have some success. The Packers stopped the run well. The Steelers got to Favre more. We need to keep stopping the run and then on 3rd down, we need to get to him quickly while also not letting him know what coverage we are running until after the snap (buying a second to get to him). In short, our defense has to be smart (disguising until the snap, even through the hard counts) and execute well (win your one on ones and be in the right position in coverage).

[RashanGary]

At the end of the day, this Viking offense is potent. They have the best running game in the league. That makes 1st and 2nd down very hard to defend.

They also have a really good QB, even in his old age. Teams will try to take away the run and Favre will carve them up at times because he's good enough to beat 8 in the box every time. The Vikings have AP though, and they HAVE to run it. If they don't, it's a sin. With that in mind, if you stop AP, at some point you're going to get these guys in a 3rd and long.

When 3rd and long comes, now you have to confuse and pressure a QB that isn't easily confused or pressured.



It's a tough assignment.

- Stop AP on 1st down (and don't get beat with a big play)
- If Favre gets a pass in, oh well, just don't let it be a big play
- Now another 1st down, stop AP again (eventually they WILL run because they have to with that guy)
- Eventually you stop AP on 1st down. Now you have to stop him again
- Maybe Favre carves you with a pass, keeping the drive alive
- Eventually they WILL run 2 times in a row, this is AP
- At some point, you'll have this team in 3rd down and long
- Now you have to disguise and execute
- Now you're off the field, you kept points off the board and your offense has to do their part.

Bottom line, this team is going to get yards, sometimes they will score, but if you stop AP first, you're going to get your 3rd down opportunities and that's where we failed last time. This time we have to execute on 3rd down as well as we did on 1st and 2nd down. Capers has these guys focused on the right things. They're saying the right things. Now, let's see if all 11 can be on the same page and we can finish these guys off for 4 quarters, on all 3 downs.

[Scott Campbell]

Even if he gets it out as quickly as he has been, if there is good pressure he'll take some shots. It's not all about sacks. Hits and hurries help too. That pressure affected him last week, and he made some big mistakes down the stretch.

[RashanGary]

Even if he gets it out as quickly as he has been, if there is good pressure he'll take some shots. It's not all about sacks. Hits and hurries help too. That pressure affected him last week, and he made some big mistakes down the stretch.

Yep, and if you are disciplined enough before the snap, you can bring pressure from somewhere he doesn't expect it and get to him.

If you show blitz before the snap, he might go to a hot read. If you drop after the snap, it does 2 things.
1. Favre has it in his head that he's going to a hot read and then there is a defender there so he has to start going through is progression.
2. The protection unit is set up to block the extra blitzers, so the 4 that do blitz end up getting good one on ones and the extra blockers end up not doing anything. (this allows good pass rushers a chance to win their one on one and get there).

It's really a combination of the secondary being in position, the blitzers disguising well pre-snap and the pass rushers winning one on one's. It's actually a pretty tough assignment, but a good, smart defense like Pittsburgh can force Favre into game losing plays and I think we have a good, smart defense that can do that too. Favre tends to lose big games against good defenses. Playoff games are where he chokes the most. I think we have a good defense and this is a playoff atmosphere. I could see Favre choking in this one, even with AP on his team.

[Scott Campbell]

Besides Bigby being back, Kampman is playing with his hand down more. And there was a Cullen Jenkins sighting last week. There is no doubt that this unit will have to play exceptionally well for the Packers to win.

[RashanGary]

It really comes down to execution (before and after the snap).

If he knows what is coming, he WILL know where to go and he will get it there. Not being over anxious before the snap will be key to getting to him after the snap.

To even get to a point where it's about stopping Favre, we have to stop AP. We did it last time, but there is no guarantee that even if we sell out, we will be able to do it again.

I don't think it's about stopping them though. Making them kick a couple field goals in stead of TDs and forcing a couple punts should be enough. This Vikings D has it's weaknesses too. We have a pretty good offense. We're going to score points. Plus, we're not fighting that crowd this time. It's not like we absolutely need a star performance on defense to win. Good should suffice.

[RashanGary]

The Vikings are 31st in missed tackles, with Greenway being their worst tackler. It's not like we're playing the 2008 Pittsburgh defense. They're going to get beat.

Favre is lucky to be on such a dynamic offense, but I'm not so sure the defense is the SB caliber he hoped for when he went there. I think we have the better D of the two teams. Favre might be a year late in his switch to the Vikes (thanks Ted).

[Scott Campbell]

It really comes down to execution (before and after the snap).

If he knows what is coming, he WILL know where to go and he will get it there. Not being over anxious before the snap will be key to getting to him after the snap.

To even get to a point where it's about stopping Favre, we have to stop AP. We did it last time, but there is no guarantee that even if we sell out, we will be able to do it again.

I don't think it's about stopping them though. Making them kick a couple field goals in stead of TDs and forcing a couple punts should be enough. This Vikings D has it's weaknesses too. We have a pretty good offense. We're going to score points. Plus, we're not fighting that crowd this time. It's not like we absolutely need a star performance on defense to win. Good should suffice.


They tackled really well in the last game. For the most part guys that had shots at him were able to finish him off.

[Scott Campbell]

Are you taking your camera to the game?

[RashanGary]

They tackled really well in the last game. For the most part guys that had shots at him were able to finish him off.

Raji hinted after that game that people think the Packers DL failed on getting pressure, but a lot of the time it's not their main job.

One thing I think people might not realize is that on 1st and 2nd down, Favre had a lot more time because our DL was playing run integrity first. Had we been going at the QB, it would have opened up bigger holes for Peterson. We sold out to stop that guy.


And had we not had the couple big coverage errors and Rodgers not turned the ball over in the redzone, we could have beat them in that loud dome. I've watched a lot of Packer and Viking football this year. The team that played better won that night, but the Packers have made some big strides and the Vikings continue to show weakness.

I think we have the better team. Right now the record is them a game up. In two weeks, I think it will be even and by seasons end (if we don't experience bad injuries), I think we'll win the division.

[RashanGary]

Are you taking your camera to the game?

Maybe. I want to get some pictures by some Favre traitor signs and things like that :).

[Scott Campbell]

Are you taking your camera to the game?

Maybe. I want to get some pictures by some Favre traitor signs and things like that :).

Good. Those things are gold.

[CaptainKickass]

I'm wondering if there are any lessons or templates or ideas we could borrow defensively from the Steelers game against the Vikes.

Did they show us a method for taking on their offense? I don't have the game Tivo'd so I can't rewatch, but I'm guessing with the Lebeau/Capers connection - there just might be some things they did, that the Pack can/should/will incorporate into our game plan this sunday.

.

[wist43]

I think the key to getting pressure on any QB who is intent on getting the ball out quickly, is to challenge his receivers and contest every ball at the reception point.

Assuming you are successful in frustrating the short passing game/quick rhythm passing game, it puts pressure on the QB to move the chains and make plays. And since we're talking about Favre here... you hope he eventually loses patience and begins to take chances in forcing the ball.

Once you feel like you've forced them to stray from their game plan, and force the ball down the field more, then you look at bringing pressure.

If Minnesota's passing game plan is generally based in 3 step drops, and Capers plays loose zone... he'll prevent the big play, but if Favre remains patient Minnesota will be able to move the chains all day.

Of course none of this matters if they can't stop Peterson... if he's averaging 7.8 yd/carry, why would they pass it??

[denverYooper]

I'm wondering if there are any lessons or templates or ideas we could borrow defensively from the Steelers game against the Vikes.

Did they show us a method for taking on their offense? I don't have the game Tivo'd so I can't rewatch, but I'm guessing with the Lebeau/Capers connection - there just might be some things they did, that the Pack can/should/will incorporate into our game plan this sunday.

.

They used their 11 angry men d.

[Fritz]

Wist makes a good point - you disrupt the rhythm by jamming or disrupting the receivers. I know that Capers' strong suit is adjusting to his players' strengths, so maybe we'll see more of the old bump coverage, and this might help disrupt the Vikings.

Still, you gotta slow Peterson down.

[denverYooper]

This will be Favre's last game.

The oracle has spoken.

[rbaloha1]

Expect more pressure with Bigby staying incoverage. IMO the coverage should roll to Harris and Williams. Favre failed to challenge Woodson (the one time was an interception which was nullified).

Bottom Line is the Defense and fans must dictate the pace of the game not #4.

[RashanGary]

Wist makes a good point - you disrupt the rhythm by jamming or disrupting the receivers. I know that Capers' strong suit is adjusting to his players' strengths, so maybe we'll see more of the old bump coverage, and this might help disrupt the Vikings.

Still, you gotta slow Peterson down.

That is an interesting point. I've noticed more man coverage out of Harris lately. Woodson seems to be playing a lot of zone.

It's nice to mix up coverages. Some plays are designed to beat man coverage. Some plays are designed to beat different types of zone. Don't do the same thing every time. It makes playcalling tougher.

I also think disguising pre-snap is incredibly important. Two of the best defensive performances I've ever seen came with a lot of pre-snap deception.

One of those performances was the Vikings against the Packers. They showed a lot of blitzers at the line, the dropped into coverage. Other times they showed no blitzers, but brought a sneaky blitz. Rodgers got dominated that game.

The other of those performances was the Giants in the Superbowl against Tom Brady. They had extreme pre-snap patience. Tom never knew if they were coming or going and the times they showed and dropped, their front 4 still got there. Brady was completely out of his element. You could see the big, scared eyes like, "I have no clue what they're doing".

I really don't even think we need a performance like that because we're going to score points, but a few plays where we get him off guard with some top notch pre-snap disipline and top notch post-snap execution could go a long way to getting off the field and limiting their point total.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I'm comfortable with our defense containing Minnesota, mainly because of Capers and his new system. The just have to play with controlled abandon.

Minnesota has the bigger problem, trying to contain our offense at home.

McCarthy may be the key to the game:

1) He's got to get and maintain the team in a high emotional state;

2) He's got to get the message across that this game will be one or lost on mistakes, penalties and turnovers. His guys have to keep their heads in the game;

3) McCarthy has to keep his head in the game calling plays. He can't be panicking, trying trick plays on 1st down, or taking three consecutive shots deep downfield for three and outs (taking no time off the clock and administering no punishment to the defense). Three and outs are OK inititally if we're gaining positive yardage per play by running or with short, quick passes and administering hits. MM has to call a New England-style plodding, positive-gain football game. He has to maintain for the rest of the game the same rhythm he usually establishes on his first drive.

I think this is going to be a "wear down" game, where the offensive team that carries it to the other defense, keeping them on the field for the first three quarters (even if only scoring field goals or gaining field position) is going to benefit in the fourth.

The team with the longest time of possession, not the most explosive plays, will probably win.

[pittstang5]

One key for this game on Sunday is to get off the field after 3rd downs - especially 3rd and longs. If I remember correctly, the Pack had the Vikings in some nice 3rd and long situations last game, but Favre kept converting. I also think that there wasn't any pressure on most of those 3rd downs. Stop the stupid penalties and bring the house on 3rd and long.

[The Leaper]

IMO, the biggest key is our play on offense. We need to control the ball and keep their offense off the field. The games where Favre struggled in Green Bay was where the opposing team didn't have a bunch of 3-and-outs and the Packer offense struggled to get into a groove.

Rodgers can't take dumbass sacks on 1st or 2nd down. That leads to 3-and-outs. The Viking secondary is weak right now...if your 1st and 2nd reads aren't open on a quick hit play...throw the ball at someone's feet and move to the next down.

[RashanGary]

IMO, the biggest key is our play on offense. We need to control the ball and keep their offense off the field. The games where Favre struggled in Green Bay was where the opposing team didn't have a bunch of 3-and-outs and the Packer offense struggled to get into a groove.

Rodgers can't take dumbass sacks on 1st or 2nd down. That leads to 3-and-outs. The Viking secondary is weak right now...if your 1st and 2nd reads aren't open on a quick hit play...throw the ball at someone's feet and move to the next down.


This is very true. Early in the season, the Packers were trying to relive their preseason glory where Rodgers looked like Tom Brady dissecting defenses with the precision long ball.

As the season started, the Packers should have quickly found out that their OL wasn't able to execute that type of game plan when defenses are planning to get at Rodgers first and the Packers don't have the run game to slow down the blitz. The result was Rodgers taking a lot of sacks, more than he took as a first year starter.

McCarthy's answer in his press conferences at the time was that he wasn't going to change anything and teh OL needed to get it fixed. Great, demand more. Sometimes that works, but McCarthy was still ignoring the obvious, he just doesn't have a team that can execute that game plan.

After the Viking game, McCarthy stopped saying, "we're not going to change anything". Instead, you read articles with Driver and Jennings saying they were going to get the ball quick and go back to the simple stuff with YAC being the primary mode of yardage.

What happened? Rodgers has taken almost zero sacks in two games. It was a against a couple of bad teams, but the philosophy clearly changed. McCarthy finally admitted to himself that while his receivers and QB are dangerous deep, his OL is the weak link that won't allow that game plan. He finally went back to what works with this team.

I don't picture 8 sacks this time. 2 would probably be closer. But I agree, that was a big problem early in this season, a problem that looks to have been fixed after that disappointing Viking loss.

[mraynrand]

Tom Brady throws a lot of underneath stuff too. Just ask Wes Welker. Packers need a little more of that.

[pbmax]

McCarthy's answer in his press conferences at the time was that he wasn't going to change anything and teh OL needed to get it fixed. Great, demand more. Sometimes that works, but McCarthy was still ignoring the obvious, he just doesn't have a team that can execute that game plan.
There isn't much mystery here and it is the age old problem with criticizing play-calling. McCarthy has said its on the QB to make the reads in the correct progression and get the ball out. He said flat out that the QB gets the progression on each play call and it is up to the QB to go through it. The clear implication is that Rodgers saw single coverage somewhere or a seam (or something else he liked) and felt like he wanted to exploit it outside of the play. Most pass plays have someone going deep to clear out a short zone or occupy a safety to give others some room. Not every play is designed to be thrown deep every time.

He locked on to a route and held the ball waiting for that to happen. Meanwhile, your protection is geared to a specific sequence and you may not have an ideal blocking scheme to hold the ball. If you brought a TE in to slow down the DE while the Tackle blocks down, then holding the ball for a deep throw is unwise.

M3 didn't start calling a different offense for throws down the field until he had two lineman hurt (Clifton and Spitz). Then we saw more screens. In support, I cite Rodgers recent statements that he must stick to the read progression and get the ball out faster. Before this past week, he had been just short of defiant that he wasn't going to change anything. His tune has changed, at least publicly.

[Scott Campbell]

McCarthy's answer in his press conferences at the time was that he wasn't going to change anything and teh OL needed to get it fixed. Great, demand more. Sometimes that works, but McCarthy was still ignoring the obvious, he just doesn't have a team that can execute that game plan.
There isn't much mystery here and it is the age old problem with criticizing play-calling. McCarthy has said its on the QB to make the reads in the correct progression and get the ball out. He said flat out that the QB gets the progression on each play call and it is up to the QB to go through it. The clear implication is that Rodgers saw single coverage somewhere or a seam (or something else he liked) and felt like he wanted to exploit it outside of the play. Most pass plays have someone going deep to clear out a short zone or occupy a safety to give others some room. Not every play is designed to be thrown deep every time.

He locked on to a route and held the ball waiting for that to happen. Meanwhile, your protection is geared to a specific sequence and you may not have an ideal blocking scheme to hold the ball. If you brought a TE in to slow down the DE while the Tackle blocks down, then holding the ball for a deep throw is unwise.

M3 didn't start calling a different offense for throws down the field until he had two lineman hurt (Clifton and Spitz). Then we saw more screens. In support, I cite Rodgers recent statements that he must stick to the read progression and get the ball out faster. Before this past week, he had been just short of defiant that he wasn't going to change anything. His tune has changed, at least publicly.


Nice post, and I agree completely. Rodgers can offset some of the protection issues by getting the ball out quicker, or throwing it away on occasion.