Special Teams kind of Special

[Noodle]

Bobblehead mentioned this in the Besides the OL, What Are Our Problems thread, but I think it deserves its own thread.

The longest TD drive for the Vikes was 63 friggin yards. They played down hill all game long.

We are ranked 31 (33.9 yds) out of 32 teams on net punting average. That's not only on Kapinos, as the Pack ranks 11th in avg punting yards (45). Where's the friggin coverage?

On Kick offs, the Pack ranks 28th on net KO average (60.9). So teams are, on average, starting their drives at the 30. The Vikes, of course, did way better than that.

With all the team's youth and all those FBs and LBs, how can this be?

And that doesn't even begin to factor in penalties.

This has been a consistent problem for GB under the MM/TT era. Don't championships start with special teams (Desmond Howard, anyone?)?

[bobblehead]

Special in the short yellow bus kind of way is your inference I assume.

To take it a bit farther if you keep 3 FB's, Jarret Bush, and some other guys who don't have any serious upside as position players you really should be a top notch special teams.

This is on TT, MM, and whoever else I can think of. Crosby misses regularly from 45+, and misses clutch kicks all the time. Blackman is explosive, but runs 20 yards a punt side to side. Kampinos is a mid season pick up who beat out our other shitty punter, but I can say one good thing about him....we didn't trade up to take him in the 3rd round.

[Fritz]

This is an area in which I agree with you both. I've defended the defense in another post, and the offensive line as well, but I think the ST play is absolutely inexcusable. As you noted, Bobble, to keep guys like Bush and three fullbacks and linebackers galore cuz they're such great special teams players means you damn well better have a solid unit.

And so far, this unit has sucked.

What the hell is going on?

[Bretsky]

Kapinos is junk; I've noted this time after time after time. He needs to be replaced via free agency or draft

I was really hoping TT would take the stud punter out of the U of Cincy

Unfortunatly he would have to have moved ahead of the Bangals in round five to do so and it's impossible to know they wanted a punter.

Completely agree on other points. We've drafted and kept all these specialists yet we stink there.

[Partial]

Kapinos is junk; I've noted this time after time after time. He needs to be replaced via free agency or draft

I was really hoping TT would take the stud punter out of the U of Cincy

Unfortunatly he would have to have moved ahead of the Bangals in round five to do so and it's impossible to know they wanted a punter.

Completely agree on other points. We've drafted and kept all these specialists yet we stink there.

What about that FSU guy that killed the Badgers last year in the bowl game. He was lights out if I remember correctly.

[pbmax]

Noodle I would think (not positive) that your net numbers will include penalties.

[Noodle]

PB, I suspect you're right, and the way I wrote it was confusing, but my numbers bitching had to do with coverage. I haven't noticed that we get an inordinate amount of penalties on coverage.

The penalties about which I bitched had to do with the return game. It honestly seems like every third return has some laundry associated with it.

That's what was so stunning about the Vike's return game -- not just huge chunks of Lambeau, but no "It's coming back" penalties.

[Patler]

Crosby misses regularly from 45+, and misses clutch kicks all the time.

Crosby's four misses this year are from 49, 51, 55 and 55 yards.
I'm not ecstatic about his performance, but I'm not worried about it,...yet.

[Noodle]

Yeah, anything over 48 or so is no gimmie, especially outside.

It's not Crosby's FG kicking I'm carping about, it's our kick and punt coverage units and our punt returning -- all crap.

I thought young guys were supposed to be all hungry and stuff. They should be flying around lighting people up, not getting lit.

[denverYooper]

A little nugget from After Further Review (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200991102183)



The Packers’ struggles in kickoff coverage came down to not stopping Harvin from getting vertical and failing to make the tackle when they did. On Harvin’s early 77-yard return, rookie OLB Brad Jones tried to play outside a block instead of through, preventing teammates from overlapping to the ball. On the key 48-yarder in the third quarter, CB Tramon Williams let Harvin get around the edge, but it wouldn’t have been an issue if OLB Brady Poppinga hadn’t tried to play under a block, letting Harvin escape.

[3irty1]

IMO this is the biggest tragedy of the team. Even more so than the OL. The players already mentioned aren't viable backups and also suck at their "specialties."

[bobblehead]

Crosby misses regularly from 45+, and misses clutch kicks all the time.

Crosby's four misses this year are from 49, 51, 55 and 55 yards.
I'm not ecstatic about his performance, but I'm not worried about it,...yet.

I get that patler, but my bigger concern is the WAY his kicks look. Some kickes boot from the hash, the ball takes off and then straightens out....funky like, but when crosby kicks it is dead nuts straight on. If the kick is from one hash he has to try to squeek it in that post to make it, if he pushes or pulls it, it continues to fade way too much and he pretty much misses every time outside of 45 this season.

Statistically he matches up ok, but he missed 2 game winners last year and I can't quantify this, but I just don't "like" his kicking. I feel like is almost definately missing from 50+ and for a guy with a mountain of leg he should be better on long ones.

[red]

yes, i completely agree. and i made the same comment in the game thread

we keep all these guys solely for special teams, and they still suck at it

[denverYooper]

What's puzzled me more is that we chose to promote from within the special teams staff after last year's woes.

[Smidgeon]

What's puzzled me more is that we chose to promote from within the special teams staff after last year's woes.

It's kind of like how he chose his first D-Coordinator: just promoted someone who was there instead of going and finding the best available. Who knows? Maybe Vanilla Bob and Shoddy Slocum had amazing interviews. But it seems to be the same kind of decision he made the first time.

[Patler]

I get that patler, but my bigger concern is the WAY his kicks look. Some kickes boot from the hash, the ball takes off and then straightens out....funky like, but when crosby kicks it is dead nuts straight on. If the kick is from one hash he has to try to squeek it in that post to make it, if he pushes or pulls it, it continues to fade way too much and he pretty much misses every time outside of 45 this season.

Statistically he matches up ok, but he missed 2 game winners last year and I can't quantify this, but I just don't "like" his kicking. I feel like is almost definately missing from 50+ and for a guy with a mountain of leg he should be better on long ones.

I guess we just disagree. I basically like the way Crosby kicks. Heck, he almost made the 69 yard attempt last year, in Green Bay on Dec. 28, game temp. at 22 degrees and a fairly good cross wind. As I recall, it was dead center, just a little short. Very few guys in the league would have had a shot at that.

This year he has hit from 45, 46, 48 and 52.
He has missed from 49, 51, 55 and 55.
50% on kicks over 45 yards. I like that he kicks a straighter ball. Once he figures out the angle on the real long ones, he should be great at it because he kicks a straight ball, and has less variation from kick to kick.


He has plenty of leg for the longest kicks they ever will try, he just doesn't always control it well enough yet. That's not surprising. A lot of young kickers struggle on the long ones, and many coaches hesitate to even try 50+ yard attempts for that reason. It took Longwell half of his career before he learned to kick the long ones, and now he is very good at it. In his first six seasons, Longwell was just 6/13 on kicks over 50 yards. Crosby is at 7/15 after just two and a half seasons.

I think Crosby is good right now, and could end up being one of the best in the league. He needs a little more seasoning.

[Patler]

A little more on the 50 yard attempts:

Scobee is 2/5 this season on 50 yard attempts. His longest is 52.
Crosby is 1/4. His longest is 52
Brown is 2/3. His longest is 53.
Seven kickers have attempted 2. Each has made one. Five from 50, one from 52, one 53.
Ten kickers have tried one, seven made it. Two from 50, one each from 51, 52, 53, 54 and 55.

Only 20 kickers have attempted kicks from 50 yards or more. Collectively they are 19/36.

More importantly, Crosby is 13/14 from inside 50 yards, and his miss was from 49. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I think they're taking too many chances with a 50%ish success rate kicking 45+. Especially if Crosby isnt ready to kick them. There's a lot of risk of having a 50% chance getting 3 points at the risk of giving your opponent great field position .

[denverYooper]

I think they're taking too many chances with a 50%ish success rate kicking 45+. Especially if Crosby isnt ready to kick them. There's a lot of risk of having a 50% chance getting 3 points at the risk of giving your opponent great field position .

Maybe they figured his chances of making it were better than the O's were of converting or the punt team's were of successfully covering the punt :).
But I think it's more than looking at the numbers and saying, ok he's about 50% on 50+ yarders, we'll roll with that here.

I really think that it gets back to what Patler mentions about Crosby needing seasoning. My guess is that the coaching staff figures that at some point he's going to begin to hit those 50+ fgs a lot more consistently and that he just needs work in that range and in game situations to make it click. If they are right, he *could* be a real weapon.

[KYPack]

Another concern w/ Crosby is his kick-offs. He basically beat Rayner on his ability to nail long kickoffs.

Like, where'd they go?

I think Crosby has a live leg, but his kick-offs don't reflect that skill. The guy has been way short on many efforts this year.

Supposedly, MM went to Slocum after the kick to Harvin after they squibbed to him earlier. Slocum seems to be shaping up as Mike Stock Jr.

MM needs to let somebody else send 'em in & concentrate on coaching this team.

I, too, thought we were a wily bunch to be keeping all these ST maniacs that will give us an edge in the 3rd phase. We kept the horses, but they ain't pulling a heavy enuff load.

[g4orce]

Another thing that goes un noticed is the fact that TED THOMPSON, and no one else is to blame, has not found a punter worth 2 shits since he's been here. He's also found this "strong legged" kicked that cant find the endzone on a kick off if he was kicking from the 50 yard line(ok that might be an over exaggeration but fuck!)



Just two more spots, KEY spots, good ole TT has let slide in "building" this crappy team.

[Patler]

He's also found this "strong legged" kicked that cant find the endzone on a kick off if he was kicking from the 50 yard line(ok that might be an over exaggeration but fuck!)


Of course, we have no idea what they are asking him to do on kickoffs, kick for distance, kick for placement against the sidelines, or kick for hang time.

Crosby was sixth in the league in touchbacks last year, and seemed to be doing well this year early. All of a sudden on kickoffs the team looks like they are scared of everyone, and they have Crosby trying to kick into the corner, squib kicking, what have you. They seem to be getting worse and worse on kickoff coverage.

[Patler]

Another thing that goes un noticed is the fact that TED THOMPSON, and no one else is to blame, has not found a punter worth 2 shits since he's been here.

Problem is, you can't make one out of thin air. There wasn't one when he came, he has tried a lot of different ones, and still hasn't found one. Sure, they likely would have been better with Jon Ryan, but he certainly wasn't and isn't anything special as a punter. There are a lot of punters around that really aren't very good. With punters, supply doesn't meet demand. Almost like QBs, a few really good ones, some OK ones and a bunch taking up a spot until the team finds someone better.

[Fritz]

He's also found this "strong legged" kicked that cant find the endzone on a kick off if he was kicking from the 50 yard line(ok that might be an over exaggeration but fuck!)


Of course, we have no idea what they are asking him to do on kickoffs, kick for distance, kick for placement against the sidelines, or kick for hang time.

Crosby was sixth in the league in touchbacks last year, and seemed to be doing well this year early. All of a sudden on kickoffs the team looks like they are scared of everyone, and they have Crosby trying to kick into the corner, squib kicking, what have you. They seem to be getting worse and worse on kickoff coverage.

First of all, Patler - glad to see you posting! Yay!

Second, what scares me is that you're right, and what I mean by that is that if the team is part way into the season asking Crosby to kick completely differently on kickoffs, I suspect that it means the coach or coaches have realized the coverage units aren't up to snuff.

That's what scares me.

[esoxx]

we just disagree.

Dave Mason - circa 1970

[esoxx]

Another thing that goes un noticed is the fact that TED THOMPSON, and no one else is to blame, has not found a punter worth 2 shits since he's been here.

Problem is, you can't make one out of thin air. There wasn't one when he came, he has tried a lot of different ones, and still hasn't found one. Sure, they likely would have been better with Jon Ryan, but he certainly wasn't and isn't anything special as a punter. There are a lot of punters around that really aren't very good. With punters, supply doesn't meet demand. Almost like QBs, a few really good ones, some OK ones and a bunch taking up a spot until the team finds someone better.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/52221267.html

[Patler]

Another thing that goes un noticed is the fact that TED THOMPSON, and no one else is to blame, has not found a punter worth 2 shits since he's been here.

Problem is, you can't make one out of thin air. There wasn't one when he came, he has tried a lot of different ones, and still hasn't found one. Sure, they likely would have been better with Jon Ryan, but he certainly wasn't and isn't anything special as a punter. There are a lot of punters around that really aren't very good. With punters, supply doesn't meet demand. Almost like QBs, a few really good ones, some OK ones and a bunch taking up a spot until the team finds someone better.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/52221267.html

...your point????

[Zool]

I think he's saying he'd rather have Hunter Smith and his 1.5 yards less per kick.

[Bretsky]

I think he's saying he'd rather have Hunter Smith and his 1.5 yards less per kick.


so would I

[Zool]

I think he's saying he'd rather have Hunter Smith and his 1.5 yards less per kick.


so would I

Why? Washington is giving up 5.8 per return and the Packers are giving up over 13 per. Maybe some of that is on the punter but the coverage teams suck, punt and kickoff. Have for quite a few consecutive seasons.

[Bretsky]

I think he's saying he'd rather have Hunter Smith and his 1.5 yards less per kick.


so would I

Why? Washington is giving up 5.8 per return and the Packers are giving up over 13 per. Maybe some of that is on the punter but the coverage teams suck, punt and kickoff. Have for quite a few consecutive seasons.

Why....ah...cause I think he's a better punter. That's about it. Plus, it'd be neat to see TTT win a competition for a free agent once as well. I suppose he won the battle for Pickett a few years back.

[bobblehead]

I get that patler, but my bigger concern is the WAY his kicks look. Some kickes boot from the hash, the ball takes off and then straightens out....funky like, but when crosby kicks it is dead nuts straight on. If the kick is from one hash he has to try to squeek it in that post to make it, if he pushes or pulls it, it continues to fade way too much and he pretty much misses every time outside of 45 this season.

Statistically he matches up ok, but he missed 2 game winners last year and I can't quantify this, but I just don't "like" his kicking. I feel like is almost definately missing from 50+ and for a guy with a mountain of leg he should be better on long ones.

I guess we just disagree. I basically like the way Crosby kicks. Heck, he almost made the 69 yard attempt last year, in Green Bay on Dec. 28, game temp. at 22 degrees and a fairly good cross wind. As I recall, it was dead center, just a little short. Very few guys in the league would have had a shot at that.

This year he has hit from 45, 46, 48 and 52.
He has missed from 49, 51, 55 and 55.
50% on kicks over 45 yards. I like that he kicks a straighter ball. Once he figures out the angle on the real long ones, he should be great at it because he kicks a straight ball, and has less variation from kick to kick.


He has plenty of leg for the longest kicks they ever will try, he just doesn't always control it well enough yet. That's not surprising. A lot of young kickers struggle on the long ones, and many coaches hesitate to even try 50+ yard attempts for that reason. It took Longwell half of his career before he learned to kick the long ones, and now he is very good at it. In his first six seasons, Longwell was just 6/13 on kicks over 50 yards. Crosby is at 7/15 after just two and a half seasons.

I think Crosby is good right now, and could end up being one of the best in the league. He needs a little more seasoning.

Well, I hope you are right. After he missed the 2 game winners last year I soured on him and I probably view him with an agenda now. 50% from 45+ is solid, and like I said, I can't quantify it. The numbers overall are good, and hopefully he will change my feelings. I just hope it happens fast.

[bobblehead]

Another thing that goes un noticed is the fact that TED THOMPSON, and no one else is to blame, has not found a punter worth 2 shits since he's been here.

Problem is, you can't make one out of thin air. There wasn't one when he came, he has tried a lot of different ones, and still hasn't found one. Sure, they likely would have been better with Jon Ryan, but he certainly wasn't and isn't anything special as a punter. There are a lot of punters around that really aren't very good. With punters, supply doesn't meet demand. Almost like QBs, a few really good ones, some OK ones and a bunch taking up a spot until the team finds someone better.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/52221267.html

...your point????

I read the article. His point is that Green Bay offered him more money and years than any other team and TT screwed up because he signed a veterans minimum one year contract with the skins.....Its a really bad point.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

we just disagree.

Dave Mason - circa 1970

A bit off. that song came out in the late 70s...maybe 77 or 78.

Ty has INCREDIBLE memory for AM GOLD!!!

Don't get him started on Al Stewart, John Stewart, Firefall, Player, Leo Sayer, Orleans, England Dan and John Ford Coley, Walter Eagan, Randy Van Warmer, etc.!

[mraynrand]

I get that patler, but my bigger concern is the WAY his kicks look. Some kickes boot from the hash, the ball takes off and then straightens out....funky like, but when crosby kicks it is dead nuts straight on. If the kick is from one hash he has to try to squeek it in that post to make it, if he pushes or pulls it, it continues to fade way too much and he pretty much misses every time outside of 45 this season.

Statistically he matches up ok, but he missed 2 game winners last year and I can't quantify this, but I just don't "like" his kicking. I feel like is almost definately missing from 50+ and for a guy with a mountain of leg he should be better on long ones.

I guess we just disagree. I basically like the way Crosby kicks. Heck, he almost made the 69 yard attempt last year, in Green Bay on Dec. 28, game temp. at 22 degrees and a fairly good cross wind. As I recall, it was dead center, just a little short. Very few guys in the league would have had a shot at that.

This year he has hit from 45, 46, 48 and 52.
He has missed from 49, 51, 55 and 55.
50% on kicks over 45 yards. I like that he kicks a straighter ball. Once he figures out the angle on the real long ones, he should be great at it because he kicks a straight ball, and has less variation from kick to kick.


He has plenty of leg for the longest kicks they ever will try, he just doesn't always control it well enough yet. That's not surprising. A lot of young kickers struggle on the long ones, and many coaches hesitate to even try 50+ yard attempts for that reason. It took Longwell half of his career before he learned to kick the long ones, and now he is very good at it. In his first six seasons, Longwell was just 6/13 on kicks over 50 yards. Crosby is at 7/15 after just two and a half seasons.

I think Crosby is good right now, and could end up being one of the best in the league. He needs a little more seasoning.

Well, I hope you are right. After he missed the 2 game winners last year I soured on him and I probably view him with an agenda now. 50% from 45+ is solid, and like I said, I can't quantify it. The numbers overall are good, and hopefully he will change my feelings. I just hope it happens fast.

I think Crosby is a lot like Rodgers. They are both very good at their respective positions, but they both need to come through in big games. Also, if what is rumored about Crosby's directional kicking is true (that they are doing it to protect deficiencies in the team), then that is another thing they share - their respective talents are being hampered by lesser players around them (Rodgers limited in part by the O line).

[esoxx]

Another thing that goes un noticed is the fact that TED THOMPSON, and no one else is to blame, has not found a punter worth 2 shits since he's been here.

Problem is, you can't make one out of thin air. There wasn't one when he came, he has tried a lot of different ones, and still hasn't found one. Sure, they likely would have been better with Jon Ryan, but he certainly wasn't and isn't anything special as a punter. There are a lot of punters around that really aren't very good. With punters, supply doesn't meet demand. Almost like QBs, a few really good ones, some OK ones and a bunch taking up a spot until the team finds someone better.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/52221267.html

...your point????

Guess I need to spell it out huh????

Yeah, the point is there are ways to find a competent punter, perhaps not out of thin air, perhaps, heaven forbid, via free agency or even keeping Jon Ryan versus cutting him on the eve of the 2008 season for....Derrick Frost??? That was a downgrade, no?

Packers couldn't have played their hand any worse when it comes to their current punting situation, well, unless they decided to bring back Don Bracken or Julian McBride I suppose. Bucky Schribner anyone?

Some people will whistle past the graveyard when it comes to just about anything with this current regime. There's always an excuse or reason why they can't do this or that.

Spin away.

[Zool]

I think he's saying he'd rather have Hunter Smith and his 1.5 yards less per kick.


so would I

Why? Washington is giving up 5.8 per return and the Packers are giving up over 13 per. Maybe some of that is on the punter but the coverage teams suck, punt and kickoff. Have for quite a few consecutive seasons.

Why....ah...cause I think he's a better punter. That's about it. Plus, it'd be neat to see TTT win a competition for a free agent once as well. I suppose he won the battle for Pickett a few years back.

In what sense is he a better punter? Does being on a shitty team in Washington bring down his punting stats? His coverage team is better than the Packers.

[Patler]

Another thing that goes un noticed is the fact that TED THOMPSON, and no one else is to blame, has not found a punter worth 2 shits since he's been here.

Problem is, you can't make one out of thin air. There wasn't one when he came, he has tried a lot of different ones, and still hasn't found one. Sure, they likely would have been better with Jon Ryan, but he certainly wasn't and isn't anything special as a punter. There are a lot of punters around that really aren't very good. With punters, supply doesn't meet demand. Almost like QBs, a few really good ones, some OK ones and a bunch taking up a spot until the team finds someone better.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/52221267.html

...your point????

Guess I need to spell it out huh????

Yeah, the point is there are ways to find a competent punter, perhaps not out of thin air, perhaps, heaven forbid, via free agency or even keeping Jon Ryan versus cutting him on the eve of the 2008 season for....Derrick Frost??? That was a downgrade, no?

Packers couldn't have played their hand any worse when it comes to their current punting situation, well, unless they decided to bring back Don Bracken or Julian McBride I suppose. Bucky Schribner anyone?

Some people will whistle past the graveyard when it comes to just about anything with this current regime. There's always an excuse or reason why they can't do this or that.

Spin away.

So what exactly did TT do wrong?:


"The situation in Green Bay was better from a financial standpoint, but it made more sense to come here," Smith said Friday in Washington.

He offered a better financial deal than Washington did, and Smith turned it down.

I'm not defending Kapinos, but a one year deal for Smith isn't the way to build a team. In retrospect, Ryan would be somewhat better, but he is nothing to get excited about either. If TT had kept Ryan, people would complain that TT isn't trying to get better. He tried, and hasn't been successful yet. I suspect he will keep trying.

Kapinos hasn't helped the team, but I don't think he has hurt them either. I don't see that having Hunter Smith, Jon Ryan or a bunch of the other active and available punters would make the Packers much better than they are.

The real mistake made by the Packers was losing Hentrich, and to a lesser extent losing Bidwell. Since then, most of their changes have been like exchanging a quarter for two dimes and a nickel. Different, but no change in value.

[Fritz]

It's the coverage. It's the coverage.

[MJZiggy]

Hard to outkick your coverage when you don't have any...

[pbmax]

It's the coverage. It's the coverage.
I will say that no matter how long (or short) the kick, the hang time has to be there for coverage to be effective. And Kapinos has been going in reverse this season so far. That isn't helping.

As for Crosby, have we kicked directionally or squibbed more than once each? We squibbed Harvin. I think injuries to the Fullback Triumvirate, Chillar, Blackmon and Nelson plays a part there.

And we directionally kicked Cribbs. Those two are especially dangerous.

[Maxie the Taxi]

It's the coverage. It's the coverage.
I will say that no matter how long (or short) the kick, the hang time has to be there for coverage to be effective. And Kapinos has been going in reverse this season so far. That isn't helping.

As for Crosby, have we kicked directionally or squibbed more than once each? We squibbed Harvin. I think injuries to the Fullback Triumvirate, Chillar, Blackmon and Nelson plays a part there.

And we directionally kicked Cribbs. Those two are especially dangerous.

I agree with this except for one thing. Yes, injuries to good coverage guys do hurt. Derrick Martin and Korey Hall are hurt, and as I recall Jason Hunter was a ST beast. But, No, I don't prefer squib kicks or directional kicks to booming one deep into the end zone or over it. I think field position GIVEN UP VOLUNTARILY with a squib kick hurts more in the long run than an occasional long run back.

Bottom line: Make the other team pay for every inch of ground. Make them earn it, work for it. Don't hand it too them on a silver platter. That goes for trying long field goals, too. Punt it deep into their territory. Pin them back. And let them work their way out of having their backs to the goal line.