"Green Bay is a bad football team..."

[MOBB DEEP]

From the mouth of Trent Dilfer on The Herd this morn

He says that they may be 4-4 but that they "have no chance!" He implied that they are actually WORSE than their record indicates

Funny how more than a few talkn heads (incld. Ditka and Schlareth) picked Pack to make noise in the post-season and are now jumping ship :evil: :evil: :evil:

[g4orce]

From the mouth of Trent Dilfer on The Herd this morn

He says that they may be 4-4 but that they "have no chance!" He implied that they are actually WORSE than their record indicates

Funny how more than a few talkn heads (incld. Ditka and Schlareth) picked Pack to make noise in the post-season and are now jumping ship :evil: :evil: :evil:


Every year there is a sexy pick. The Packers were that sexy pick because of their preseason. Analysts shoulda, and woulda picked the Vikings if it wasnt for the unknown in Brett Favre. Well that unknown was answered in a hurry.

[MOBB DEEP]

From the mouth of Trent Dilfer on The Herd this morn

He says that they may be 4-4 but that they "have no chance!" He implied that they are actually WORSE than their record indicates

Funny how more than a few talkn heads (incld. Ditka and Schlareth) picked Pack to make noise in the post-season and are now jumping ship :evil: :evil: :evil:

Are they better or worse than 4-4?

Or is Parcells correct that "you are what your record says u are?"

[Zool]

From the mouth of Trent Dilfer on The Herd this morn

He says that they may be 4-4 but that they "have no chance!" He implied that they are actually WORSE than their record indicates

Funny how more than a few talkn heads (incld. Ditka and Schlareth) picked Pack to make noise in the post-season and are now jumping ship :evil: :evil: :evil:

Are they better or worse than 4-4?

Or is Parcells correct that "you are what your record says u are?"

Yarp. Pack is a wildly inconsistent middle of the road team. 4-4

[MadtownPacker]

Funny how more than a few talkn heads (incld. Ditka and Schlareth) picked Pack to make noise in the post-season and are now jumping ship :evil: :evil: :evil:That's when we all should of known. ALL the TV guys picking your team is the kiss of death. Might as well have had the whole team on the Madden cover.

[Brandon494]

Trent Dilfer still believes he is the reason the Ravens won the SB. Dude is a joke, even though I might have to agree with him about the Packers.

[g4orce]

Trent Dilfer believe he is the reason the Ravens won the SB.


:lol: he is part of the reason, isn't he?

[Brandon494]

Trent Dilfer believe he is the reason the Ravens won the SB.


:lol: he is part of the reason, isn't he?

A trained monkey could have been QB and they still would have won the SB with the defense they had that season.

[pbmax]

From the mouth of Trent Dilfer on The Herd this morn

He says that they may be 4-4 but that they "have no chance!" He implied that they are actually WORSE than their record indicates

Funny how more than a few talkn heads (incld. Ditka and Schlareth) picked Pack to make noise in the post-season and are now jumping ship :evil: :evil: :evil:
Which proves they know nothing more than you or I do MOBB.

[MadtownPacker]

Trent Dilfer believe he is the reason the Ravens won the SB.


:lol: he is part of the reason, isn't he?

A trained monkey could have been QB and they still would have won the SB with the defense they had that season.OK, so did you actually watch those games? You are kinda young right so not sure if you where still playing with legos.

Dilfer wasnt the guiding force but I watched their whole playoff run that year and he did make the plays he needed to score. Dont be a hater like all these other Wisco Crackas.

[Packers4Glory]

they are a bad team. They have the players at skill positions to match any team out there.

However, when you have a swiss cheesed O-Line plus penalties out the ass, well you're going to be a bad team. You simply can not overcome a ton of sacks and penalties. Not to mention just horrible coverage on KO and punts. You can't be bad on special teams. when you suck at those 3 aspects of a game you're going to have a hard time beating good and average teams.

[g4orce]

Yep, its a mixture for disaster.

Young QB that needs a good oline to succeed.

Oline that isnt very good

An undisciplined head coach.

A new defensive coordinator with only a small sample of players used to a 3-4.

A GM that wont help his team with free agents nor feels the need to get veterants to help in key areas.

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.


All this goes into the reason why we suck balls so far. And it could get very ugly in the near future with the tougher part of the schedule to come.

[packerbacker1234]

Wildly inconsistent team?

I'll tell you what is consistent:


We haven't beat a team with a winning record. To me, that tells me we really are a bad team. The only teams we have beat are teams with really bad records, and even then we didn't beat all of them (plug tampa loss). What does it say in the light?

4 Wins against 4 of the worst teams in the league
3 Losses to teams that actually have a winning record
1 Loss to winless team at the midpoint in the season


It all points to GB being a bad team.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I don't remember Dilfer playing great down the stretch. Just avoiding mistakes:

Four games of playoffs:
Comp-att / Yds / Sacks / TD / Rate
9-14 / 130 / 1 / 2 / 118.2
5-16 / 117 / 0 / 3 / 58.6
9-18 / 190 / 1 / 2 / 83.1
12-25 /153 / 1 / 3 / 80.9

http://www.nfl.com/players/trentdilfer/gamelogs?id=DIL049692&season=2000

I do remember their defense being really fun to watch!!!

[pbmax]

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.
We should have known after it failed to work in Denver.

[Smidgeon]

Trent Dilfer still believes he is the reason the Ravens won the SB. Dude is a joke, even though I might have to agree with him about the Packers.

He wrote an article a while back that put the current NFL QBs into categories such as elite, middle of the road, etc. I thought the article was the best article I've ever read on current QBs. I couldn't find anything to argue with. I don't know if his ability to dissect QBs extends to teams (maybe not), but I thought he had the QB part down.

[packerbacker1234]

Is the shceme of running the ball that sucks... or is it more the fact that Mm DOESN'T run the ball?

After that 3rd drive when we pounded it down there throats for a TD... why didn't we continue to do that ALL GAME LONG.

Grant 180 yards rushing, Green 90 yards, Rodgers prolly with the same amoutn of yards or close (240 or so) plus a 2 td's. Grant gets 2 TD's, Green gets one. Crosby gets 2 FG's....


blow out, the other team never has the ball.

Wait, I forgot. We don't run the ball.

[mraynrand]

Is the shceme of running the ball that sucks... or is it more the fact that Mm DOESN'T run the ball?

After that 3rd drive when we pounded it down there throats for a TD... why didn't we continue to do that ALL GAME LONG.

Grant 180 yards rushing, Green 90 yards, Rodgers prolly with the same amoutn of yards or close (240 or so) plus a 2 td's. Grant gets 2 TD's, Green gets one. Crosby gets 2 FG's....


blow out, the other team never has the ball.

Wait, I forgot. We don't run the ball.

I didn't know we had 270 yards rushing. WOW!

[red]

Is the shceme of running the ball that sucks... or is it more the fact that Mm DOESN'T run the ball?

After that 3rd drive when we pounded it down there throats for a TD... why didn't we continue to do that ALL GAME LONG.

Grant 180 yards rushing, Green 90 yards, Rodgers prolly with the same amoutn of yards or close (240 or so) plus a 2 td's. Grant gets 2 TD's, Green gets one. Crosby gets 2 FG's....


blow out, the other team never has the ball.

Wait, I forgot. We don't run the ball.

I didn't know we had 270 yards rushing. WOW!

no, we didn't

i think he's saying that we would have had numbers like that if we would have ran all game

we had 170 rushing, still damn good

[packerbacker1234]

Is the shceme of running the ball that sucks... or is it more the fact that Mm DOESN'T run the ball?

After that 3rd drive when we pounded it down there throats for a TD... why didn't we continue to do that ALL GAME LONG.

Grant 180 yards rushing, Green 90 yards, Rodgers prolly with the same amoutn of yards or close (240 or so) plus a 2 td's. Grant gets 2 TD's, Green gets one. Crosby gets 2 FG's....


blow out, the other team never has the ball.

Wait, I forgot. We don't run the ball.

I didn't know we had 270 yards rushing. WOW!

no, we didn't

i think he's saying that we would have had numbers like that if we would have ran all game

we had 170 rushing, still damn good

Grant had 96. Something like 67 of those yards were on one drive.

Green had 45. Looked solid, but barely touched hte ball (I think it was 3 or 4 rushes wasn't it?)

Rodgers had 26 - which is really irrelevant to an actual rushing attack.

So damn good? Grants yards were mostly from a single drive, Green's were from very few touches, and rodgers has no bearing on the run game.

Add an extra 100 yards on that total and they pretty much never have the ball.

[pbmax]

Rodgers had 26 - which is really irrelevant to an actual rushing attack.
What is the difference between the QB escaping and running for yards and a draw play? Do draw plays have "no bearing" on the running game?

[Scott Campbell]

So damn good? Grants yards were mostly from a single drive, Green's were from very few touches, and rodgers has no bearing on the run game.



So if you throw out all our rushing yards yesterday, we had no ground game whatsoever.

[bobblehead]

From the mouth of Trent Dilfer on The Herd this morn

He says that they may be 4-4 but that they "have no chance!" He implied that they are actually WORSE than their record indicates

Funny how more than a few talkn heads (incld. Ditka and Schlareth) picked Pack to make noise in the post-season and are now jumping ship :evil: :evil: :evil:

Are they better or worse than 4-4?

Or is Parcells correct that "you are what your record says u are?"

Bill is a very sharp dude. We are 4-4 end of story. However as bad as we played the last 2 weeks we might not END up at .500, but we also could start playing solid ball again and end up 10-6....but at the end of the season we will be what we are. Right now, we are 4-4, we beat mostly bad teams and lost to mostly good teams....voila, .500

[sharpe1027]

From the mouth of Trent Dilfer on The Herd this morn

He says that they may be 4-4 but that they "have no chance!" He implied that they are actually WORSE than their record indicates

Funny how more than a few talkn heads (incld. Ditka and Schlareth) picked Pack to make noise in the post-season and are now jumping ship :evil: :evil: :evil:

Are they better or worse than 4-4?

Or is Parcells correct that "you are what your record says u are?"

Bill is a very sharp dude. We are 4-4 end of story. However as bad as we played the last 2 weeks we might not END up at .500, but we also could start playing solid ball again and end up 10-6....but at the end of the season we will be what we are. Right now, we are 4-4, we beat mostly bad teams and lost to mostly good teams....voila, .500

They are who we thought they were!

[bobblehead]

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.



SO when Denver ran it down everyones throat in mile high stadium all those years you were emailing Mike shanahan right??

3 straight AFC rushing titles, 2 superbowl wins, first player to rush for 3 TD's in a superbowl, 2000 yard season....crappy scheme for an outdoor team. Change RB's, same success, crappy scheme. Yep, keep parroting whatever it is you are reading.

News flash einstein, it ain't the scheme, its the players.

[mraynrand]

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.



SO when Denver ran it down everyones throat in mile high stadium all those years you were emailing Mike shanahan right??

3 straight AFC rushing titles, 2 superbowl wins, first player to rush for 3 TD's in a superbowl, 2000 yard season....crappy scheme for an outdoor team. Change RB's, same success, crappy scheme. Yep, keep parroting whatever it is you are reading.

News flash einstein, it ain't the scheme, its the players.

I thought it was the coaches.

[bobblehead]

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.
We should have known after it failed to work in Denver.

I just never learn to read all the way down before responding to idiocy.

[g4orce]

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.



SO when Denver ran it down everyones throat in mile high stadium all those years you were emailing Mike shanahan right??

3 straight AFC rushing titles, 2 superbowl wins, first player to rush for 3 TD's in a superbowl, 2000 yard season....crappy scheme for an outdoor team. Change RB's, same success, crappy scheme. Yep, keep parroting whatever it is you are reading.

News flash einstein, it ain't the scheme, its the players.

where did I say anywhere that teams haven't had success? Please show me. I said and so u know IMO=in my opinion, not urs, I don't think it's the tight scheme for a team like green bay. It's just my opinion. I believe big beefy guys that wear out teams is better. So sorry for having a different opinion my god.

[Smidgeon]

News flash einstein, it ain't the scheme, its the players.

Unless the scheme wasn't fully implemented to the point of mastering it, instead being implemented to the point of simple adequacy. Jags was only there for a year. I think it'd be akin to Capers coming in for a year, dropping the 3-4, then having someone else who'd never coached the 3-4 do it from there. It's widely agreed that the 3-4 takes a few years to fully implement. Maybe the ZBS doesn't, but the team doesn't seem to be doing it all that well. So while it could be the players as opposed to the scheme, it could also be the coaches who haven't successfully implemented the scheme.

Just wanted to point out another possibility.

[bobblehead]

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.



SO when Denver ran it down everyones throat in mile high stadium all those years you were emailing Mike shanahan right??

3 straight AFC rushing titles, 2 superbowl wins, first player to rush for 3 TD's in a superbowl, 2000 yard season....crappy scheme for an outdoor team. Change RB's, same success, crappy scheme. Yep, keep parroting whatever it is you are reading.

News flash einstein, it ain't the scheme, its the players.

where did I say anywhere that teams haven't had success? Please show me. I said and so u know IMO=in my opinion, not urs, I don't think it's the tight scheme for a team like green bay. It's just my opinion. I believe big beefy guys that wear out teams is better. So sorry for having a different opinion my god.

You can have any opinion you want, I was merely pointing out that the ZBS is one of the most successful rushing schemes in history for an outdoor team that plays in the cold. Kind contradicting your "opinion" with those pesky facts.

[bobblehead]

News flash einstein, it ain't the scheme, its the players.

Unless the scheme wasn't fully implemented to the point of mastering it, instead being implemented to the point of simple adequacy. Jags was only there for a year. I think it'd be akin to Capers coming in for a year, dropping the 3-4, then having someone else who'd never coached the 3-4 do it from there. It's widely agreed that the 3-4 takes a few years to fully implement. Maybe the ZBS doesn't, but the team doesn't seem to be doing it all that well. So while it could be the players as opposed to the scheme, it could also be the coaches who haven't successfully implemented the scheme.

Just wanted to point out another possibility.
Agree, no argument from me on that count.

[g4orce]

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.



SO when Denver ran it down everyones throat in mile high stadium all those years you were emailing Mike shanahan right??

3 straight AFC rushing titles, 2 superbowl wins, first player to rush for 3 TD's in a superbowl, 2000 yard season....crappy scheme for an outdoor team. Change RB's, same success, crappy scheme. Yep, keep parroting whatever it is you are reading.

News flash einstein, it ain't the scheme, its the players.

where did I say anywhere that teams haven't had success? Please show me. I said and so u know IMO=in my opinion, not urs, I don't think it's the tight scheme for a team like green bay. It's just my opinion. I believe big beefy guys that wear out teams is better. So sorry for having a different opinion my god.

You can have any opinion you want, I was merely pointing out that the ZBS is one of the most successful rushing schemes in history for an outdoor team that plays in the cold. Kind contradicting your "opinion" with those pesky facts.

one team has had success with it while a lotta teams have had success other ways. Percentages are higher with beefy dudes.

[Patler]

Grant had 96. Something like 67 of those yards were on one drive.

Green had 45. Looked solid, but barely touched hte ball (I think it was 3 or 4 rushes wasn't it?)

Rodgers had 26 - which is really irrelevant to an actual rushing attack.

So damn good? Grants yards were mostly from a single drive, Green's were from very few touches, and rodgers has no bearing on the run game.

Add an extra 100 yards on that total and they pretty much never have the ball.

I agree that the Packers should have run the ball more, but your analysis is way off-base. Grants yards were mostly from a single drive? Not in the game I watched. He had drives of 5/34; 3/20; 2/12; and 3/16. Not remotely close to, "Something like 67 of those yards were on one drive."

As for, "Green had 45. Looked solid, but barely touched hte ball (I think it was 3 or 4 rushes wasn't it?)" In actuality, Green had 6 carries, including carries of 1, 2, 3 and 4 yards to go with two runs of 9 and 26 yards.

When given a chance, the running game was effective. It should have been given more opportunities.

[Scott Campbell]

Did the Falcons Dirty Bird Superbowl team run the zone blocking scheme?

[mraynrand]

Grant had 96. Something like 67 of those yards were on one drive.

Green had 45. Looked solid, but barely touched hte ball (I think it was 3 or 4 rushes wasn't it?)

Rodgers had 26 - which is really irrelevant to an actual rushing attack.

So damn good? Grants yards were mostly from a single drive, Green's were from very few touches, and rodgers has no bearing on the run game.

Add an extra 100 yards on that total and they pretty much never have the ball.

I agree that the Packers should have run the ball more, but your analysis is way off-base. Grants yards were mostly from a single drive? Not in the game I watched. He had drives of 5/34; 3/20; 2/12; and 3/16. Not remotely close to, "Something like 67 of those yards were on one drive."

As for, "Green had 45. Looked solid, but barely touched hte ball (I think it was 3 or 4 rushes wasn't it?)" In actuality, Green had 6 carries, including carries of 1, 2, 3 and 4 yards to go with two runs of 9 and 26 yards.

When given a chance, the running game was effective. It should have been given more opportunities.

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/Patlerized.jpg

[Brandon494]

Trent Dilfer believe he is the reason the Ravens won the SB.


:lol: he is part of the reason, isn't he?

A trained monkey could have been QB and they still would have won the SB with the defense they had that season.OK, so did you actually watch those games? You are kinda young right so not sure if you where still playing with legos.

Dilfer wasnt the guiding force but I watched their whole playoff run that year and he did make the plays he needed to score. Dont be a hater like all these other Wisco Crackas.


Dude had Jamal Lewis and Priest Holmes in the backfield to go along with one of the best defenses the league has ever seen. He did make a few plays during their playoff run but there is a reason he is the ONLY QB to be released after a SB win.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.



SO when Denver ran it down everyones throat in mile high stadium all those years you were emailing Mike shanahan right??

3 straight AFC rushing titles, 2 superbowl wins, first player to rush for 3 TD's in a superbowl, 2000 yard season....crappy scheme for an outdoor team. Change RB's, same success, crappy scheme. Yep, keep parroting whatever it is you are reading.

News flash einstein, it ain't the scheme, its the players.

G4force was mad at Vince Lombardi for INTRODUCING ZBS to the NFL.

What the hell was Lombardi thinking? Didn't he know the scheme wouldn't work in the frozen tundra of Green Bay?

[Sparkey]

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.



SO when Denver ran it down everyones throat in mile high stadium all those years you were emailing Mike shanahan right??

3 straight AFC rushing titles, 2 superbowl wins, first player to rush for 3 TD's in a superbowl, 2000 yard season....crappy scheme for an outdoor team. Change RB's, same success, crappy scheme. Yep, keep parroting whatever it is you are reading.

News flash einstein, it ain't the scheme, its the players.

No mention of coaching ?

So if I wanted to learn how to make Scallops Florentine, a cook at McDonalds would be do the job ? A scheme is like a recipe. Right ?

[Maxie the Taxi]

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.



SO when Denver ran it down everyones throat in mile high stadium all those years you were emailing Mike shanahan right??

3 straight AFC rushing titles, 2 superbowl wins, first player to rush for 3 TD's in a superbowl, 2000 yard season....crappy scheme for an outdoor team. Change RB's, same success, crappy scheme. Yep, keep parroting whatever it is you are reading.

News flash einstein, it ain't the scheme, its the players.

G4force was mad at Vince Lombardi for INTRODUCING ZBS to the NFL.

What the hell was Lombardi thinking? Didn't he know the scheme wouldn't work in the frozen tundra of Green Bay?

Did Vince really do that?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.



SO when Denver ran it down everyones throat in mile high stadium all those years you were emailing Mike shanahan right??

3 straight AFC rushing titles, 2 superbowl wins, first player to rush for 3 TD's in a superbowl, 2000 yard season....crappy scheme for an outdoor team. Change RB's, same success, crappy scheme. Yep, keep parroting whatever it is you are reading.

News flash einstein, it ain't the scheme, its the players.

So if I wanted to learn how to make Scallops Florentine, a cook at McDonalds would be do the job ?

Ty thinks the biggest problem with your question is the use of "cook" and McDonalds. :wink:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.



SO when Denver ran it down everyones throat in mile high stadium all those years you were emailing Mike shanahan right??

3 straight AFC rushing titles, 2 superbowl wins, first player to rush for 3 TD's in a superbowl, 2000 yard season....crappy scheme for an outdoor team. Change RB's, same success, crappy scheme. Yep, keep parroting whatever it is you are reading.

News flash einstein, it ain't the scheme, its the players.

G4force was mad at Vince Lombardi for INTRODUCING ZBS to the NFL.

What the hell was Lombardi thinking? Didn't he know the scheme wouldn't work in the frozen tundra of Green Bay?

Did Vince really do that?

Yes. Vince is generally regarded as introducing ZBS to the NFL. Just another pesky fact that gets forgotten by the anti MM/TT crowd.

What do you think Vince was talking about when he said "run to daylight?"

More disappointing is that an old timer like yourself didn't know that

[Maxie the Taxi]

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.



SO when Denver ran it down everyones throat in mile high stadium all those years you were emailing Mike shanahan right??

3 straight AFC rushing titles, 2 superbowl wins, first player to rush for 3 TD's in a superbowl, 2000 yard season....crappy scheme for an outdoor team. Change RB's, same success, crappy scheme. Yep, keep parroting whatever it is you are reading.

News flash einstein, it ain't the scheme, its the players.

G4force was mad at Vince Lombardi for INTRODUCING ZBS to the NFL.

What the hell was Lombardi thinking? Didn't he know the scheme wouldn't work in the frozen tundra of Green Bay?

Did Vince really do that?

Yes. Vince is generally regarded as introducing ZBS to the NFL. Just another pesky fact that gets forgotten by the anti MM/TT crowd.

More disappointing is that an old timer like yourself didn't know that

It's a truism that whatever I don't know you do. So it's one for you. :)

[Tyrone Bigguns]

A scheme of running the ball that blows IMO for an outdoor team.



SO when Denver ran it down everyones throat in mile high stadium all those years you were emailing Mike shanahan right??

3 straight AFC rushing titles, 2 superbowl wins, first player to rush for 3 TD's in a superbowl, 2000 yard season....crappy scheme for an outdoor team. Change RB's, same success, crappy scheme. Yep, keep parroting whatever it is you are reading.

News flash einstein, it ain't the scheme, its the players.

G4force was mad at Vince Lombardi for INTRODUCING ZBS to the NFL.

What the hell was Lombardi thinking? Didn't he know the scheme wouldn't work in the frozen tundra of Green Bay?

Did Vince really do that?

Yes. Vince is generally regarded as introducing ZBS to the NFL. Just another pesky fact that gets forgotten by the anti MM/TT crowd.

More disappointing is that an old timer like yourself didn't know that

It's a truism that whatever I don't know you do. So it's one for you. :)

Ok. It is like a pail and the ocean. I'm the ocean.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Ty, how does the Green Bay power sweep fit into Lombardi's ZBS? Or did he only run zone part of the time?

It just seems strange, because Lombardi was such a "blackboard" kind of coach. You know, he seemed to draw every thing up so that every blocker has a guy to take out, etc. Doesn't seem like ZBS.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ty, how does the Green Bay power sweep fit into Lombardi's ZBS? Or did he only run zone part of the time?

It just seems strange, because Lombardi was such a "blackboard" kind of coach. You know, he seemed to draw every thing up so that every blocker has a guy to take out, etc. Doesn't seem like ZBS.

Honestly, Ty isn't that well versed in schemes to tell you what percent he ran. Sweep? Somebody else would have to answer that. Though Ty would guess that it still was in effect as the pulling linemen would block according to their respective zone...not try and take out a specific player..with options as to which player to take out depending on where in their zone they were..and options as to what to do if nobody was there or multiple players were in the zone.

Um, sorry, you have the blackboard wrong. Lombardi emphasized the line as a unit...instead of man 2 man. The rb then ran to the whole of his choosing..."run to daylight"....get it?

Vince learned ZB at West Point where it was being further developed by Red Blaik. Blaik combined ZB with option blocking. Blaik also developed option running (not THE OPTION as known at Oklahoma in the 70s)...the back read the blocks in front of him and adjusted to the hole.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Just for Ty's education and edification...The famous Green Bay Power Sweep...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v3Qgt0Fb8I

And a very interesting article on the "Rosie" Sweep...

http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/opinions/giant-thoughts/the-rosie-sweep-a-tribute-to-rosie-brown/


The Rosie Sweep: A Tribute to Rosie Brown
8/3/2004

By Frank ‘Dog’ Piliere

Disclaimer: The following article is based on real events. Frank ‘Dog” Piliere created the dialogue.

Training camp started for the 2004 New York Football Giants. As they take the field it is evident these Giants are very different then last years. In addition to a new coaching staff, the Giants have replaced nearly half their roster. Sadly one Giant that fans will miss in Albany this year is Rosie Brown. The Giants’ Hall Of Fame Tackle passed away on June 9. Rosie Brown has been a regular attendee at Giants Training Camp since he was drafted in 1953. A family run organization, the New York Football Giants have traditionally strived to accept its players as if they were members of the family instead of football players or business associates. Rosie exemplified this notion as a participating member of the Giants family for over fifty years. He was a starting tackle from 1953 to 1965, an offensive line coach from 1966 to 1970 and worked in the scouting department from 1971 until his recent death in June.

Wellington Mara discovered Rosie while reading an article in a Pittsburgh newspaper. The article prompted the Giants to draft the 19 year old Rosie Brown in the twenty seventh round. Rosie was a starter his first season under head coach Steve Owen. Rosie’s second season the Giants replaced Steve Owen with Jim Lee Howell. Jim introduced specialization to the NFL by assigning Vince Lombardi the offense and Tom Landry the defense. This was the beginning of the offensive and defensive coordinator positions.

Lombardi was serving as an assistant coach at West Point when Wellington Mara selected him to join the Giants coaching staff. Lombardi struggled his first two seasons trying to learn football as it was played in the NFL. The fifties were an incredible time for professional football. Baseball, boxing, college football and horse racing were all much more popular then the NFL in the early fifties. In fact many fans viewed the players of the NFL as barbaric, uneducated ruffians who beat each other up every week in order to pay for their meals. The decade of the 50’s would change that perception. Vince Lombardi and Rosie Brown were key elements in these changes. Although college football was more popular, the NFL evolved much faster in terms of offensive and defensive strategies. Lombardi coming from the college ranks had a lot to learn. He had spent his career playing and coaching the Wing Formation, which dominated the college ranks. He was forced to quickly accept and learn the T-Formation, which was run in the NFL. Though Lombardi had much to learn he still had plenty to teach. He replaced man blocking by the offensive line and introduced zone blocking. In Zone Blocking the offensive line works as a unit. Instead of each lineman being assigned a particular man to block the entire line would work together to double team defensive linemen and improve their chance to prevent the linebackers from making a play. Zone blocking altered the manner in which the running backs maneuvered. Instead of running to a predetermined spot the running back would run to a hole created by the offensive linemen and the blocking patterns that evolved with each play. The expression ‘run to daylight’ was made famous by Lombardi. The game became more dynamic as one play could have several variations as it unfolded.

Lombardi wanted the running game to open up the passing game. He thought football was meant to be a running game and was obsessed with the wing formation. The Wing and Double Wing formations were the most popular formations when football began. The Wing incorporated seven linemen and four backs. The quarterback stood behind the guards, he was mostly a blocking back that would help the linemen double team a defense. The Wing back usually stood to the outside of the end at the same distance from the line of scrimmage as the quarterback. The full back stood further back from the quarterback usually behind a guard. The tail back was the star of the show. He would line up on center further back then the full back. He would receive the ball from the center and would then be able to run, pass or kick the ball. Passing the ball was difficult in the Wing formations because it was difficult for the ends to break away from the defenders as they lined up close to the tackles. In the Double Wing the quarterback would become the second wingback on the opposite side of the field as the first wingback. With the tight formation and lots of moving blockers it is easy to see why the wing was so useful to run the ball. Defenses learned to adjust by jamming the line of scrimmage and shutting down the wing’s effectiveness.

Lombardi diligently studied and recorded the various offenses being run in the NFL. He would write the plays on legal sized notepads for closer study. He designed his own offense in the same manner. Lombardi created plays that his players viewed as tricks or gimmicks. The plays could occasionally catch a defense off guard. The players were skeptical when Lombardi started talking about incorporating the Wing formation in the NFL. Lombardi’s first year with the Giants was difficult for him. He had trouble winning the player’s confidence. After his first season with the Giants he decided to leave. He went back to his old head coach at West Point and accepted an oral agreement to return to West Point for the 1955 season. Wellington Mara, the Giants owner, managed to coerce Lombardi to change his mind. There were many differences between the NFL players and Lombardi but because of Lombardi’s desire to succeed and his willingness to listen and compromise with his players they had come to trust and believe in each other.

When Lombardi worked a play out on paper he would test it by teaching it to his players. Lombardi was a detail-oriented teacher. He would repeatedly shout out each assignment to every player. The players knew many of Lombardi’s plays would not work in the NFL and they let Lombardi know. But Lombardi would not give up.

Rosie Brown was extremely athletic and powerful. He thrived in Lombardi’s offensive system. One day during Giants training camp in 1955, Rosie Brown sparked an event that would dominate the NFL for the next decade.

The Giants held their training camp at Willamette University in Salem Oregon. The climate was cooler then in the east. But Lombardi was still his heated self. “Do not stand still on my line of scrimmage. If you do not have a defender to block move your ass down field and find one. Now let’s line it up on three.” Conerly received the snap and turned to hand the ball to Gifford. Gifford took the ball in his midsection and sprinted toward his right; suddenly Rosie Brown appeared out of nowhere downfield and clobbered the safety. Vince Lombardi started screaming.

“Brown do you know where the hell you are? Damnit son wait for the ball to be snapped before you start moving around. Now give it to me again, on three this time, you hear that Brown on three.”

Conerly receives the snap, hands it off to Gifford. Gifford starts toward his right and Lombardi starts to go off again.

“Brown what the hell are you doing?” Once again Rosie Brown is down field.

Lombardi walks over to end Coach Ken Kavanaugh and line Coach Ed Kolman.
“Can you guys tell me what the hell Rosie is doing?” Lombardi asks.

Kavanaugh responds “Come on Vince he’s 20 years old he did a great job for us last year, I think you have him out of sorts with the zone blocking. He’ll get it just give him some reps. That’s all he needs.”

Once again the team tries the play and once again Rosie is down field taking out the safety. Vince starts screaming, “Give me the ball. Give me the damn ball!”

Lombardi was always loud and very excitable. Since he joined the Giants several players enjoyed pushing him over the edge just to get him screaming. Gifford recognized the moment as a perfect opportunity. He flipped the ball underhand towards Lombardi. Gifford threw it short with a lot of spin on it. Lombardi grabbed at the ball but it fell just out of his reach. The heavily spun ball bounced straight up as Lombardi was lunging forward and it hit Lombardi in his clipboard causing him to drop the clipboard. Lombardi violently tried to kick the moving ball only to have it bounce sharply to the right. as his leg missed the ball by a foot. Several players snickered and started to laugh. “Give me that damn ball!” Lombardi demanded. He finally had the ball. He stood beside Rosie Brown and instructed him to get in his stance. He then gets down beside him with the ball. “Now kid I don’t know if you are deaf or something but just in case you are I want you to watch the ball with your periphial vision. Don’t actually look at the ball but still see it. As soon as you see the ball move you move. Not a second before not a second after.” Lombardi stands up and tosses the ball over to the center. He shouts, “All right lets do it again on three. On three Rosie”

This time all coaches’ eyes were on Rosie Brown. The ball is snapped to Conerly who hands off to Gifford and before Gifford even moves Lombardi is yelling to stop the play. “You son of a bitch”, Vince is yelling at know one in particular. “I need a son of a bitch with a camera over here now.” Lombardi insisted on studying films. He was a pioneer for the NFL in film study as well as camera positioning. He insisted on having wide screen lenses to better see the entire field. This time he wanted a wide-angle shot of the play as well as a close up of Rosie Brown. Rosie you son of a bitch, Lombardi shouted out again flashing his big toothy grin as he starts to laugh out loud. “Do you see what is happening here?” he shouts into the clear Oregon air. Lombardi had them run the play several times to completion. He wanted the film to study. He wasn’t quite sure of the meaning but he did realize that Rosie Brown was not jumping off early. Rosie Brown was so fast that he was actually ahead of the defense. From these observations Lombardi was able to utlilize his tackle in much the same way as his wing backs thus making it possible to run the power sweep from the T-Formation. In 1955 mid way through the season the Giants offense started to stall. Jim Lee Howell requested some new ideas. Lombardi then introduced his version of the sweep to Howell.

This season Giants fans should pay close attention to the offensive line. The game is controlled on the line of scrimmage. Last season the Giants expectations were crushed when their offensive line collapsed with injuries. The next game you watch observe the coordinated efforts of the linemen while they maneuver as a unit to execute a play. Remember Hall of Famer Rosie Brown the Giants greatest tackle that ever played not only helped the Giants win the 1956 Championship and five division championships but he was monumental in the modern evolution of football. History is written by the victors. If the Giants defeated the Colts in the 58 championship and then Lombardi’s Green Bay Packers in 61 and 62 perhaps we would be calling one of the most famous plays in the NFL the ‘Giants Sweep’ or even the ‘Rosie Sweep’.

[Merlin]

I am still sick thinking about another game flushed down the toilet. The entire team, from top to bottom, needs a wake up call and if not beating arguably one of the worst teams in the league isn't a wake up call, I don't know what is.

The ZBS only works if you know how to coach the damn thing, obviously, we do not. Of course, one assumes that when you say "we would like to run the ball more", that you actually, you know RUN THE BALL MORE. So it doesn't matter what kind of scheme we are using.

The players aren't performing and there could be 2 reasons for that: 1) Coaching and 2) They aren't that talented to begin with. We all like to think we have a lot of "talent" on this team, but do we really? Are these guys just not gelling therefore they all look like they suck? I mean seriously, there are a lot of issues right now - from a strategy of drafting a whole team instead of building a team using FA, trades, and the draft to some players who now look very over-rated, to a coach who looks like he has no idea what the hell he is doing. Who is to blame? Do we just keep firing assistant coaches until we find some that can take what is really starting to look like very mediocre players look better than they really are? Do you fire the head coach and pray that a new head coach will take you to the promise land after "building" this team for 5 years? How long do you wait for this "plan" to work? How long do we have to suffer before someone does something to actually help this team? Capers was a good hire, the personnel obviously doesn't match, outside of that at what point do you say enough is enough? Do we have to finish under .500 again? Miss the playoffs?

I don't know about the rest of you but if this team isn't successful now and the salary cap goes away for any extended period of time, Green Bay will once again become a farm team for the NFL. Right now, we are the best farm team Minnesota has...

[ND72]

The ZBS only works if you know how to coach the damn thing, obviously, we do not. Of course, one assumes that when you say "we would like to run the ball more", that you actually, you know RUN THE BALL MORE. So it doesn't matter what kind of scheme we are using.


This is where I LOVED Mike Holmgren. We all love Edgar Bennett and Dorsey Levens....but come on. What made them good players wasn't because of our running attack, it was the screens, draws, and dump downs to them that made them and our offense so dangerous. Also, it was quick slants and so on that made Favre so crazy dangerous.

If we could figure out how to run a damn screen, and use our RB's as receivers, we'd be a completely different team. Under McCarthy we just flat out refuse to do any of that.

[Merlin]

One thing Mike Sherman and Mike Holmgren did very well was make in game adjustments. Sherman became predictable in the end, but he still made changes to what the defense was giving us. McCarthy is the worst at making adjustments in a game that you will ever see. When you are giving up sacks, screens, slants, running the ball, all slow down that rushing attack - yet we never do it. Oh sure we tried at the onset of the Vikings game but the execution was so poor that McCarthy went into instant panic mode. It was predictable as well. Why exactly did we get Ahman back? So he could get the record and retire a Packer?

I just think this whole team is defeated and the finger pointing is starting which inevitably leads to a downhill season.

[ND72]

One thing Mike Sherman and Mike Holmgren did very well was make in game adjustments. Sherman became predictable in the end, but he still made changes to what the defense was giving us. McCarthy is the worst at making adjustments in a game that you will ever see. When you are giving up sacks, screens, slants, running the ball, all slow down that rushing attack - yet we never do it. Oh sure we tried at the onset of the Vikings game but the execution was so poor that McCarthy went into instant panic mode. It was predictable as well. Why exactly did we get Ahman back? So he could get the record and retire a Packer?

I just think this whole team is defeated and the finger pointing is starting which inevitably leads to a downhill season.


great post!

[ThunderDan]

Ty, how does the Green Bay power sweep fit into Lombardi's ZBS? Or did he only run zone part of the time?

It just seems strange, because Lombardi was such a "blackboard" kind of coach. You know, he seemed to draw every thing up so that every blocker has a guy to take out, etc. Doesn't seem like ZBS.

WI runs sweeps all the time and runs the ZBS.

[Partial]

Ty, how does the Green Bay power sweep fit into Lombardi's ZBS? Or did he only run zone part of the time?

It just seems strange, because Lombardi was such a "blackboard" kind of coach. You know, he seemed to draw every thing up so that every blocker has a guy to take out, etc. Doesn't seem like ZBS.

WI runs sweeps all the time and runs the ZBS.

Incorrect. They're pitching, not sweeping. The very foundation of a sweep involves a guard pulling outside of a tackle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweep_(American_football)

[pbmax]

One thing Mike Sherman and Mike Holmgren did very well was make in game adjustments. Sherman became predictable in the end, but he still made changes to what the defense was giving us. McCarthy is the worst at making adjustments in a game that you will ever see. When you are giving up sacks, screens, slants, running the ball, all slow down that rushing attack - yet we never do it. Oh sure we tried at the onset of the Vikings game but the execution was so poor that McCarthy went into instant panic mode. It was predictable as well. Why exactly did we get Ahman back? So he could get the record and retire a Packer?

I just think this whole team is defeated and the finger pointing is starting which inevitably leads to a downhill season.
I am pretty sure there are a few hundred threads that have been sacrificed on Sherman being unable to adjust in game. Just look up U71 after the year 2003. And all else being equal, McCarthy would have been better with no adjustments in this game as we held the lead until the fourth quarter.

The game wasn't lost by game plan or talent or failure to adjust. We made more mistakes than an 0-7 team. Get one fewer punt blocked, throw one fewer INT, have one less penalty, stop blowing pass pro and get rid of the ball in the second half, the game belongs to the Packers.

The question is when are the players going to learn this lesson? Can the coaches communicate it? We had only 5 penalties for 35 yards, one led right to a score. Should that be the start of a trend, then there is hope. But past history isn't on their side.

[ThunderDan]

Ty, how does the Green Bay power sweep fit into Lombardi's ZBS? Or did he only run zone part of the time?

It just seems strange, because Lombardi was such a "blackboard" kind of coach. You know, he seemed to draw every thing up so that every blocker has a guy to take out, etc. Doesn't seem like ZBS.

WI runs sweeps all the time and runs the ZBS.

Incorrect. They're pitching, not sweeping. The very foundation of a sweep involves a guard pulling outside of a tackle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweep_(American_football)

Get a fucking clue!!!

From the wikipedia site.

[edit] Toss Sweep
A play that is usually run out of the I or Singleback formations. The quarterback takes the snap, reverses out, then tosses the ball to the tailback. When run from the I it allows the fullback to pick up any defenders who have penetrated into the backfield. Blocking from the offensive line ranges from straight zone blocking to pulling the playside guard. While this sweep doesn't have as many playfake combinations as the bucksweep, it tends to be more powerful and allows the running back to turn upfield faster.

[pbmax]

One thing Mike Sherman and Mike Holmgren did very well was make in game adjustments. Sherman became predictable in the end, but he still made changes to what the defense was giving us. McCarthy is the worst at making adjustments in a game that you will ever see. When you are giving up sacks, screens, slants, running the ball, all slow down that rushing attack - yet we never do it. Oh sure we tried at the onset of the Vikings game but the execution was so poor that McCarthy went into instant panic mode. It was predictable as well. Why exactly did we get Ahman back? So he could get the record and retire a Packer?

I just think this whole team is defeated and the finger pointing is starting which inevitably leads to a downhill season.
I am pretty sure there are a few hundred threads that have been sacrificed on Sherman being unable to adjust in game. Just look up U71 after the year 2003. And all else being equal, McCarthy would have been better with no adjustments in this game as we held the lead until the fourth quarter.

The game wasn't lost by game plan or talent or failure to adjust. We made more mistakes than an 0-7 team. Get one fewer punt blocked, throw one fewer INT, have one less penalty, stop blowing pass pro and get rid of the ball in the second half, the game belongs to the Packers.

The question is when are the players going to learn this lesson? Can the coaches communicate it? We had only 5 penalties for 35 yards, one led right to a score. Should that be the start of a trend, then there is hope. But past history isn't on their side.
And drops forgot drops. How about holding onto the ball guys?!

[Partial]

Ty, how does the Green Bay power sweep fit into Lombardi's ZBS? Or did he only run zone part of the time?

It just seems strange, because Lombardi was such a "blackboard" kind of coach. You know, he seemed to draw every thing up so that every blocker has a guy to take out, etc. Doesn't seem like ZBS.

WI runs sweeps all the time and runs the ZBS.

Incorrect. They're pitching, not sweeping. The very foundation of a sweep involves a guard pulling outside of a tackle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweep_(American_football)

Get a fucking clue!!!

From the wikipedia site.

[edit] Toss Sweep
A play that is usually run out of the I or Singleback formations. The quarterback takes the snap, reverses out, then tosses the ball to the tailback. When run from the I it allows the fullback to pick up any defenders who have penetrated into the backfield. Blocking from the offensive line ranges from straight zone blocking to pulling the playside guard. While this sweep doesn't have as many playfake combinations as the bucksweep, it tends to be more powerful and allows the running back to turn upfield faster.

Touche. I wonder if that is accurate.

BTW, least appropriate response ever. Grow up.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ty, how does the Green Bay power sweep fit into Lombardi's ZBS? Or did he only run zone part of the time?

It just seems strange, because Lombardi was such a "blackboard" kind of coach. You know, he seemed to draw every thing up so that every blocker has a guy to take out, etc. Doesn't seem like ZBS.

WI runs sweeps all the time and runs the ZBS.

Incorrect. They're pitching, not sweeping. The very foundation of a sweep involves a guard pulling outside of a tackle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweep_(American_football)


You can pitch the ball on a sweep. and, the badgers do run sweeps all the time.

Phillips ran a sweep last game.

"I like the way he's able to play on zone plays, (and) he's able to bounce some things.” ... Smith's speed will be a valuable tool for the Badgers, ... run reverse sweeps with,” said running backs coach John Settle.

You prolly know more than Settle. :roll:

[Tyrone Bigguns]

[quote=Maxie the Taxi]Ty, how does the Green Bay power sweep fit into Lombardi's ZBS? Or did he only run zone part of the time?

It just seems strange, because Lombardi was such a "blackboard" kind of coach. You know, he seemed to draw every thing up so that every blocker has a guy to take out, etc. Doesn't seem like ZBS.

WI runs sweeps all the time and runs the ZBS.

Incorrect. They're pitching, not sweeping. The very foundation of a sweep involves a guard pulling outside of a tackle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweep_(American_football)

Get a fucking clue!!!

From the wikipedia site.

[edit] Toss Sweep
A play that is usually run out of the I or Singleback formations. The quarterback takes the snap, reverses out, then tosses the ball to the tailback. When run from the I it allows the fullback to pick up any defenders who have penetrated into the backfield. Blocking from the offensive line ranges from straight zone blocking to pulling the playside guard. While this sweep doesn't have as many playfake combinations as the bucksweep, it tends to be more powerful and allows the running back to turn upfield faster.

Touche. I wonder if that is accurate.[/quote
Yeah, it is now an accuracy issue. LOL

You posted the link, but now don't like it. My god, you are such a dope.

[ThunderDan]

Ty, how does the Green Bay power sweep fit into Lombardi's ZBS? Or did he only run zone part of the time?

It just seems strange, because Lombardi was such a "blackboard" kind of coach. You know, he seemed to draw every thing up so that every blocker has a guy to take out, etc. Doesn't seem like ZBS.

WI runs sweeps all the time and runs the ZBS.

Incorrect. They're pitching, not sweeping. The very foundation of a sweep involves a guard pulling outside of a tackle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweep_(American_football)

Get a fucking clue!!!

From the wikipedia site.

[edit] Toss Sweep
A play that is usually run out of the I or Singleback formations. The quarterback takes the snap, reverses out, then tosses the ball to the tailback. When run from the I it allows the fullback to pick up any defenders who have penetrated into the backfield. Blocking from the offensive line ranges from straight zone blocking to pulling the playside guard. While this sweep doesn't have as many playfake combinations as the bucksweep, it tends to be more powerful and allows the running back to turn upfield faster.

Touche. I wonder if that is accurate.

So when you use Wikipedia its correct but when anyone uses your link to refute your stupidity you wonder if your source is accurate!

That pretty much sums it up in a nicely wrapped package!!

[Sparkey]

Ty, how does the Green Bay power sweep fit into Lombardi's ZBS? Or did he only run zone part of the time?

It just seems strange, because Lombardi was such a "blackboard" kind of coach. You know, he seemed to draw every thing up so that every blocker has a guy to take out, etc. Doesn't seem like ZBS.

WI runs sweeps all the time and runs the ZBS.

Incorrect. They're pitching, not sweeping. The very foundation of a sweep involves a guard pulling outside of a tackle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweep_(American_football)

Get a fucking clue!!!

From the wikipedia site.

[edit] Toss Sweep
A play that is usually run out of the I or Singleback formations. The quarterback takes the snap, reverses out, then tosses the ball to the tailback. When run from the I it allows the fullback to pick up any defenders who have penetrated into the backfield. Blocking from the offensive line ranges from straight zone blocking to pulling the playside guard. While this sweep doesn't have as many playfake combinations as the bucksweep, it tends to be more powerful and allows the running back to turn upfield faster.

Touche. I wonder if that is accurate.

BTW, least appropriate response ever. Grow up.

http://pclanparty.com/forum_pix/assclown.jpg

[Guiness]

OK, so did you actually watch those games? You are kinda young right so not sure if you where still playing with legos.

Dilfer wasnt the guiding force but I watched their whole playoff run that year and he did make the plays he needed to score. Dont be a hater like all these other Wisco Crackas.


Dude had Jamal Lewis and Priest Holmes in the backfield to go along with one of the best defenses the league has ever seen. He did make a few plays during their playoff run but there is a reason he is the ONLY QB to be released after a SB win.

Mmm. They did. For Elvis Grbac. Trying to remember how that worked out for them...

[MOBB DEEP]

there is a reason he is the ONLY QB to be released after a SB win.

Doug Williams :cry: :cry: :cry: