Solution To Our Special Team Problems?

[Maxie the Taxi]

http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c117812/media_center/images/rendered/blog/wysiwyg/Barbre.jpg

From Packers' Website Bio: "Was fast enough to play gunner on the punt team in college, making seven solo tackles as a senior."

Seriously, I hope this guy has a great game Sunday. He must be having one of the most serious downers of anyone on the team.

[g4orce]

http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c117812/media_center/images/rendered/blog/wysiwyg/Barbre.jpg

From Packers' Website Bio: "Was fast enough to play gunner on the punt team in college, making seven solo tackles as a senior."

Seriously, I hope this guy has a great game Sunday. He must be having one of the most serious downers of anyone on the team.


Yikes, now we are relying on an offensive lineman to be our savior? No wonder talented athletes like Harvin run circles around us.

[sharpe1027]

Never again use T. Williams on kick returns. Then find someone, anyone, that can reliably catch punts and fall forward rather than run backwards/sideways.

[Cheesehead Craig]

When Jordy comes back our kickoff returns will be markedly improved.

[mraynrand]

http://cdn.cloudfiles.mosso.com/c117812/media_center/images/rendered/blog/wysiwyg/Barbre.jpg

From Packers' Website Bio: "Was fast enough to play gunner on the punt team in college, making seven solo tackles as a senior."

Seriously, I hope this guy has a great game Sunday. He must be having one of the most serious downers of anyone on the team.

Guy can't even wear his helmet properly. What chance have we got?

[Scott Campbell]

Guy can't even wear his helmet properly. What chance have we got?


Maybe he's just got a double chin.

[Smidgeon]

Guy can't even wear his helmet properly. What chance have we got?


Maybe he's just got a double chin.

...and no mouth.

[channtheman]

When Jordy comes back our kickoff returns will be markedly improved.

If we don't hold on every return that is.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Guy can't even wear his helmet properly. What chance have we got?


Maybe he's just got a double chin.

...and no mouth.

I think he's got a snack in his chin guard and using it like a feed bag.

[Scott Campbell]

Guy can't even wear his helmet properly. What chance have we got?


Maybe he's just got a double chin.

...and no mouth.

I think he's got a snack in his chin guard and using it like a feed bag.



Good idea. :lol:

[denverYooper]

Well. It was only a matter of time.

Our special teams now ranks 32nd on Football Outsiders DVOA metrics. Offense ranks 8th, defense ranks 5th in DVOA. Of course defense might rank lower if the other teams had a starting field position in their own territory, though I still think they're an above average unit trending upward (h/t Fritz on the "unit" humor).

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2009/week-9-dvoa-ratings

[g4orce]

Well. It was only a matter of time.

Our special teams now ranks 32nd on Football Outsiders DVOA metrics. Offense ranks 8th, defense ranks 5th in DVOA. Of course defense might rank lower if the other teams had a starting field position in their own territory, though I still think they're an above average unit trending upward (h/t Fritz on the "unit" humor).

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2009/week-9-dvoa-ratings


Good thing TT brought in all those special teams demons!

[Smidgeon]

Well. It was only a matter of time.

Our special teams now ranks 32nd on Football Outsiders DVOA metrics. Offense ranks 8th, defense ranks 5th in DVOA. Of course defense might rank lower if the other teams had a starting field position in their own territory, though I still think they're an above average unit trending upward (h/t Fritz on the "unit" humor).

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2009/week-9-dvoa-ratings


Good thing TT brought in all those special teams demons!

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!

[g4orce]

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!


I think we can all agree when hes given players like Jarret Bush, that its not his fault.

[Smidgeon]

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!


I think we can all agree when hes given players like Jarret Bush, that its not his fault.

Because Jarret Bush is so bad that no team wanted him when he hit restricted free agency...

[g4orce]

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!


I think we can all agree when hes given players like Jarret Bush, that its not his fault.

Because Jarret Bush is so bad that no team wanted him when he hit restricted free agency...


Just want a clarification if you think Bush is good..

[Smidgeon]

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!


I think we can all agree when hes given players like Jarret Bush, that its not his fault.

Because Jarret Bush is so bad that no team wanted him when he hit restricted free agency...


Just want a clarification if you think Bush is good..

I have no specific opinion. I'm not a scout and I don't watch tape. He could be good. But I don't know.

[g4orce]

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!


I think we can all agree when hes given players like Jarret Bush, that its not his fault.

Because Jarret Bush is so bad that no team wanted him when he hit restricted free agency...


Just want a clarification if you think Bush is good..

I have no specific opinion. I'm not a scout and I don't watch tape. He could be good. But I don't know.

ok just wondering.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I think he's got a snack in his chin guard and using it like a feed bag.

Good idea. :lol:

I had just hit "quote" to say the exact same and then i saw your post. Damn you scott the line stealer.

I miss harlan.

[Smidgeon]

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!


I think we can all agree when hes given players like Jarret Bush, that its not his fault.

Because Jarret Bush is so bad that no team wanted him when he hit restricted free agency...


Just want a clarification if you think Bush is good..

I have no specific opinion. I'm not a scout and I don't watch tape. He could be good. But I don't know.

ok just wondering.

Here are my opinions:

1) TT, though he has some holes as a GM, has provided talent to M3 and is overall a good GM
2) M3, though he has some excellence as coach, doesn't have excellence that covers the holes of TT (thus is not perfectly complementary), but is overall a serviceable coach
3) One of his holes is "good enough" coach hiring: he promoted Bob Sanders instead of finding the best available, he promoted Slocum instead of finding the best available
4) As such, I'm not excited about Slocum as special teams coach
5) The Packers scouting and talent division is second to none (as their reputation has been)
6) Keeping Bush was a talent decision that was validated by another team trying to sign him in the offseason
7) Since it wasn't a talent decision (at the time), it seems to be a coaching issue (or something lacking between Bush's ears)
8) As such, I'm far more apt to point my finger at the special teams' coach than at Bush (since special teams uses 11 players just like offense and defense)

[g4orce]

Here are my opinions:

1) TT, though he has some holes as a GM, has provided talent to M3 and is overall a good GM

If TT has some holes, and its very very obvious that his holes that he hasnt filled are killing this team, HOW IS HE A GOOD GM?

2) M3, though he has some excellence as coach, doesn't have excellence that covers the holes of TT (thus is not perfectly complementary), but is overall a serviceable coach

MM has shown what excellence? Maybe in the passing game, maybe I'll give you that. But what else? I cant name a thing.

3) One of his holes is "good enough" coach hiring: he promoted Bob Sanders instead of finding the best available, he promoted Slocum instead of finding the best available

Maybe both though he was the best available. I would put more money on that then them thinking they shouldnt go get someone. Which also means, MM/TT are not doing their jobs properly.

4) As such, I'm not excited about Slocum as special teams coach

Agree

5) The Packers scouting and talent division is second to none (as their reputation has been)

Who the hell says this? Have they been watching our "talented" players each week? Who the hell have we drafted that we have hit on big? I saw a thing on MNF last night and it had everyone of the Steelers first rounders listed for like the last 6-7 years and each player was really good. Not just avg. but good. Anyways, TT misses, and misses a lot.

6) Keeping Bush was a talent decision that was validated by another team trying to sign him in the offseason

A talent decision? WTF does that mean? This guys been a bum since he didnt fall on the football in the NFC championship game. He's a bum, dont waste my time with this garbage.

7) Since it wasn't a talent decision (at the time), it seems to be a coaching issue (or something lacking between Bush's ears)

Coaching issues have no bearing on how shitty Bush is. Ya our coaches arent great, but Bush is a complete waste of space on this roster.

8) As such, I'm far more apt to point my finger at the special teams' coach than at Bush (since special teams uses 11 players just like offense and defense)

It might not all be Bush, but a lot of stupid shit that he's done over the past couple years has cost us. And for a GM to not only pay him a redic amount of money, but to keep him on this team, is embarrasing to say the least.

[Smidgeon]

Here are my opinions:

1) TT, though he has some holes as a GM, has provided talent to M3 and is overall a good GM

If TT has some holes, and its very very obvious that his holes that he hasnt filled are killing this team, HOW IS HE A GOOD GM?

Not all GMs are perfect. I didn't say he was "great". I said "good". I think he's great at drafting and managing the player finances (via his negotiator). I think he's good at paying the right price for talent.

2) M3, though he has some excellence as coach, doesn't have excellence that covers the holes of TT (thus is not perfectly complementary), but is overall a serviceable coach

MM has shown what excellence? Maybe in the passing game, maybe I'll give you that. But what else? I cant name a thing.

I've heard reports and read articles about how his schemes give opponents more to think about than his players do. Apparently (just speculation here), he has a scheme that works, when executed. It's my opinion that he's a great QB coach.

3) One of his holes is "good enough" coach hiring: he promoted Bob Sanders instead of finding the best available, he promoted Slocum instead of finding the best available

Maybe both though he was the best available. I would put more money on that then them thinking they shouldnt go get someone. Which also means, MM/TT are not doing their jobs properly.

Finding the assistant coaches is not TT's responsibility. It's M3's. I don't think anyone thought Sanders was the best available. At most, I think they thought the continuity would be more important than an overhaul and give them the competitive advantage on defense. It was a gamble that failed. I think he's taking the same gamble with special teams.

4) As such, I'm not excited about Slocum as special teams coach

Agree

5) The Packers scouting and talent division is second to none (as their reputation has been)

Who the hell says this? Have they been watching our "talented" players each week? Who the hell have we drafted that we have hit on big? I saw a thing on MNF last night and it had everyone of the Steelers first rounders listed for like the last 6-7 years and each player was really good. Not just avg. but good. Anyways, TT misses, and misses a lot.


First, the difference between evaluating talent (what I was talking about) and GMing: evaluating talent looks at everyone, GMing chooses which ones to take or pursue based on a multitude of factors such as cost, availablity, temperment, etc. As for TT's track record, I don't think he misses as much as you think he does. I don't think you can blame him for Brohm or Harrell because other teams were looking for them at the same place and Harrell's current injury isn't related to his college injury. Are you going to blame him for Terrance Murphy too? I don't think he's been bad at choosing the right talent. He convinced Charles Woodson to sign, brought in Pickett and Chiller for competetive wages, etc. I think he's provided M3 with young talent/potential, and that potential remains yet to be fully tapped.

6) Keeping Bush was a talent decision that was validated by another team trying to sign him in the offseason

A talent decision? WTF does that mean? This guys been a bum since he didnt fall on the football in the NFC championship game. He's a bum, dont waste my time with this garbage.

It means they were convinced he was worth the money. Do you think TT would have signed him if he weren't? He's shown that he's willing to let people go if they're overpriced. As for whether or not Bush's been a bum, can you tell me that conclusively after watching him on every single play he's ever been in on--every proper block, every tackle, every time he holds the edge--on special teams or defense, or is it just reactionary because he makes his share of flagged plays?

7) Since it wasn't a talent decision (at the time), it seems to be a coaching issue (or something lacking between Bush's ears)

Coaching issues have no bearing on how shitty Bush is. Ya our coaches arent great, but Bush is a complete waste of space on this roster.

I think coaching has everything to do with how Bush is. Someone's got to get into his head that he's responsible for not playing out of control. If he isn't learning that, either he's missing something vital between his ears, or the coaches aren't doing their jobs.

8) As such, I'm far more apt to point my finger at the special teams' coach than at Bush (since special teams uses 11 players just like offense and defense)

It might not all be Bush, but a lot of stupid shit that he's done over the past couple years has cost us. And for a GM to not only pay him a redic amount of money, but to keep him on this team, is embarrasing to say the least.

What he got paid isn't ridiculous in this day and age. And until you tell me that you've watched every single play he's been in on and can tell me emotionlessly that he's just as bad as you say, then I'm going to operate under the assumption that you've been biased against him simply because you got accustomed to hearing his name and number being called for penalties regardless of whether or not that's still occuring.


By the way, does anyone know the last time Bush was flagged? I can't remember off the top of my head.

[MadtownPacker]

Just fire Stubby. That should be the start to fixing everything wrong with this squad.

[Smidgeon]

Just fire Stubby. That should be the start to fixing everything wrong with this squad.

I don't necessarily disagree. Just like TT seems to be great at building up a talent base, M3 seems to be great at nurturing QBs. I'm still holding out judgment on TT, but I'm starting to wonder if M3's usefulness has run its course. I don't know that, but I'm seriously starting to actively wonder that.

[denverYooper]

Here are my opinions:

1) TT, though he has some holes as a GM, has provided talent to M3 and is overall a good GM


Agreed.



2) M3, though he has some excellence as coach, doesn't have excellence that covers the holes of TT (thus is not perfectly complementary), but is overall a serviceable coach
3) One of his holes is "good enough" coach hiring: he promoted Bob Sanders instead of finding the best available, he promoted Slocum instead of finding the best available
4) As such, I'm not excited about Slocum as special teams coach


I'm of the mind lately that MM is not very good at a key managerial task needed in being a good HC: evaluating his own staff. I think a lot of us around here puzzled at the promotion of Slocum. In retrospect, it sure looks like a horrible move from a staffing standpoint.

[woodbuck27]

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!


I think we can all agree when hes given players like Jarret Bush, that its not his fault.

Because Jarret Bush is so bad that no team wanted him when he hit restricted free agency...


Just want a clarification if you think Bush is good..

TT and MM think he's pretty good.

Therein lies the rub. Why won't TT try to make our team better every week? Get his nose to the grindstone, burn the midnight oil. Always bringing in people so the one's on board play with more fire - passion?

[Smidgeon]

Therein lies the rub.

For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;

[Cheesehead Craig]

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!


I think we can all agree when hes given players like Jarret Bush, that its not his fault.

Because Jarret Bush is so bad that no team wanted him when he hit restricted free agency...


Just want a clarification if you think Bush is good..

TT and MM think he's pretty good.

Therein lies the rub. Why won't TT try to make our team better every week? Get his nose to the grindstone, burn the midnight oil. Always bringing in people so the one's on board play with more fire - passion?
To what end? Why keep bringing in player after player? That sends a horrible message to the guys on the roster. If you make them believe they aren't worth anything and can be replaced by any FA off the street, they will believe it and do worse.

Confidence is contagious, but so is lack of confidence.

[mraynrand]

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!


I think we can all agree when hes given players like Jarret Bush, that its not his fault.

Because Jarret Bush is so bad that no team wanted him when he hit restricted free agency...


Just want a clarification if you think Bush is good..

TT and MM think he's pretty good.

Therein lies the rub. Why won't TT try to make our team better every week? Get his nose to the grindstone, burn the midnight oil. Always bringing in people so the one's on board play with more fire - passion?
To what end? Why keep bringing in player after player? That sends a horrible message to the guys on the roster. If you make them believe they aren't worth anything and can be replaced by any FA off the street, they will believe it and do worse.

Confidence is contagious, but so is lack of confidence.

Swine flu is even more contagious.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!


I think we can all agree when hes given players like Jarret Bush, that its not his fault.

Because Jarret Bush is so bad that no team wanted him when he hit restricted free agency...


Just want a clarification if you think Bush is good..

TT and MM think he's pretty good.

Therein lies the rub. Why won't TT try to make our team better every week? Get his nose to the grindstone, burn the midnight oil. Always bringing in people so the one's on board play with more fire - passion?
To what end? Why keep bringing in player after player? That sends a horrible message to the guys on the roster. If you make them believe they aren't worth anything and can be replaced by any FA off the street, they will believe it and do worse.

Confidence is contagious, but so is lack of confidence.

Swine flu is even more contagious.

The proper pad level defeats the Swine flu.

[mraynrand]

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!


I think we can all agree when hes given players like Jarret Bush, that its not his fault.

Because Jarret Bush is so bad that no team wanted him when he hit restricted free agency...


Just want a clarification if you think Bush is good..

TT and MM think he's pretty good.

Therein lies the rub. Why won't TT try to make our team better every week? Get his nose to the grindstone, burn the midnight oil. Always bringing in people so the one's on board play with more fire - passion?
To what end? Why keep bringing in player after player? That sends a horrible message to the guys on the roster. If you make them believe they aren't worth anything and can be replaced by any FA off the street, they will believe it and do worse.

Confidence is contagious, but so is lack of confidence.

Swine flu is even more contagious.

The proper pad level defeats the Swine flu.

Scissors beat pad level.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Scissors beat pad level.

Well played sir

[LEWCWA]

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!


I think we can all agree when hes given players like Jarret Bush, that its not his fault.

Because Jarret Bush is so bad that no team wanted him when he hit restricted free agency...


Just want a clarification if you think Bush is good..

TT and MM think he's pretty good.

Therein lies the rub. Why won't TT try to make our team better every week? Get his nose to the grindstone, burn the midnight oil. Always bringing in people so the one's on board play with more fire - passion?
To what end? Why keep bringing in player after player? That sends a horrible message to the guys on the roster. If you make them believe they aren't worth anything and can be replaced by any FA off the street, they will believe it and do worse.

Confidence is contagious, but so is lack of confidence.

Thats a load of crap!

[pbmax]

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!


I think we can all agree when hes given players like Jarret Bush, that its not his fault.

Because Jarret Bush is so bad that no team wanted him when he hit restricted free agency...


Just want a clarification if you think Bush is good..

I have no specific opinion. I'm not a scout and I don't watch tape. He could be good. But I don't know.

ok just wondering.
He is a very good gunner on Special Teams. He nearly left as a RFA this year after being offered a contract to do just that. He does collect penalties too often.

He isn't nearly as good at CB or safety. But this is not unusual in the workd of Special Teams. Tracy White may have been our best special teams player but he was not good enough to be a full time LB.

[Bretsky]

Good thing Slocum coached up all those special teams demons!


I think we can all agree when hes given players like Jarret Bush, that its not his fault.

Because Jarret Bush is so bad that no team wanted him when he hit restricted free agency...


Just want a clarification if you think Bush is good..

I have no specific opinion. I'm not a scout and I don't watch tape. He could be good. But I don't know.

ok just wondering.

Here are my opinions:

1) TT, though he has some holes as a GM, has provided talent to M3 and is overall a good GM
2) M3, though he has some excellence as coach, doesn't have excellence that covers the holes of TT (thus is not perfectly complementary), but is overall a serviceable coach
3) One of his holes is "good enough" coach hiring: he promoted Bob Sanders instead of finding the best available, he promoted Slocum instead of finding the best available
4) As such, I'm not excited about Slocum as special teams coach
5) The Packers scouting and talent division is second to none (as their reputation has been)
6) Keeping Bush was a talent decision that was validated by another team trying to sign him in the offseason
7) Since it wasn't a talent decision (at the time), it seems to be a coaching issue (or something lacking between Bush's ears)
8) As such, I'm far more apt to point my finger at the special teams' coach than at Bush (since special teams uses 11 players just like offense and defense)


Ton of good points

But I disagree about Bush. Because one team in the NFL decided to make him a not so great offer doesn't validate much IMO. I'm not as high as #5 as you are either but we're alright there

[rbaloha1]

MM is big on loyalty. Possess sympathy for assistant coaches due to his career as an assistant coaches.

The problem is lane integrity during coverage. Also unsure if the proper players are selected for the various units.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Oops!! Barbre probably won't be our special teams savior. He has a concussion:

From MM's Wednesday press conference:

(When did Barbre get his concussion?)
Late in the game. He didn't practice today. I think if you wanted to compare him and Aaron Kampman, he's further ahead, closer to getting back on the field.