Rebuilding the OL, again

[Partial]

Spitz and Colledge are both free agents and both have shown that they are worth basically nothing at this point. Clifton and Tauscher are probably going to either retire or be gone after this year.

Pretty sad when TT's second, third and fourth rounders all were big time busts :(

Colledge is far too inconsistent to be a starter. He'll make a great play and then let someone get by him untouched.

Spitz cannot stay healthy and was pretty bad earlier this year. They may make a small offer to him.

Barbre is horrible and does not belong on an NFL Europe roster let alone an NFL one.

Lang and Sitton are the only ones who look capable of being solid starters and belonging. What is the deal with this?

[g4orce]

Spitz and Colledge are both free agents and both have shown that they are worth basically nothing at this point. Clifton and Tauscher are probably going to either retire or be gone after this year.

Pretty sad when TT's second, third and fourth rounders all were big time busts :(

Colledge is far too inconsistent to be a starter. He'll make a great play and then let someone get by him untouched.

Spitz cannot stay healthy and was pretty bad earlier this year. They may make a small offer to him.

Barbre is horrible and does not belong on an NFL Europe roster let alone an NFL one.

Lang and Sitton are the only ones who look capable of being solid starters and belonging. What is the deal with this?


We'll just pretend 2007 was the only year he's been the GM of this team and keep on this terrible pace of being either below average or mediocre. Great!

[3irty1]

Both College and Spitz have put together quality seasons at guard. Unless they've actually regressed I think there's something else to blame. I can't speculate once but it just doesn't make sense that two solid starters turned to shit.

[Smidgeon]

Spitz and Colledge are both free agents and both have shown that they are worth basically nothing at this point. Clifton and Tauscher are probably going to either retire or be gone after this year.

Pretty sad when TT's second, third and fourth rounders all were big time busts :(

Colledge is far too inconsistent to be a starter. He'll make a great play and then let someone get by him untouched.

Spitz cannot stay healthy and was pretty bad earlier this year. They may make a small offer to him.

Barbre is horrible and does not belong on an NFL Europe roster let alone an NFL one.

Lang and Sitton are the only ones who look capable of being solid starters and belonging. What is the deal with this?

So how was Spitz bad earlier in the year? And how is Barbre not even good enough to play in NFL E? Please substantiate.

[pbmax]

Do you ever think before you type, or do you start with a premise and just add in names, places and dates?? Spitz was doing fine at center and will be very good. Colledge has gone back to his 2nd year pass blocking technique. There is a problem there, I agree.

[bobblehead]

College starts so slow every year and looks awesome in the last 4-6 games....its a problem, but he can be very good at times. I think the Wells at center, spitz backing the inside is respectable. I think Lang takes colleges job next year, so the problem is both tackles. The 2 we got are old and not the same guys, the young guys don't look for real.

I still think the problems on this team can be solved 2 ways. Get 2 NFL quality tackles this year, one in FA, one by draft. Stop keeping guys mainly for special teams value. Keep guys with positional upside and MAKE them play special teams.

All I can say is....we gotta get this fixed.

[Fritz]

Haven't you heard, Bobble? MM's working on that this week - getting it fixed.

[bobblehead]

Spitz and Colledge are both free agents and both have shown that they are worth basically nothing at this point. Clifton and Tauscher are probably going to either retire or be gone after this year.

Pretty sad when TT's second, third and fourth rounders all were big time busts :(

Colledge is far too inconsistent to be a starter. He'll make a great play and then let someone get by him untouched.

Spitz cannot stay healthy and was pretty bad earlier this year. They may make a small offer to him.

Barbre is horrible and does not belong on an NFL Europe roster let alone an NFL one.

Lang and Sitton are the only ones who look capable of being solid starters and belonging. What is the deal with this?


We'll just pretend 2007 was the only year he's been the GM of this team and keep on this terrible pace of being either below average or mediocre. Great!

Really dude, at some point you gotta start posting something of substance instead of this garbage. No one wants to read the constant barrage of crap. You can do it, honest...the thread is about the OL, so try really hard to post something worthwhile regarding the topic.

Most of the guys (myself included) agree that TT has had enough time to field a winner. I still believe in his METHOD of building a winner, but obviously his "guys" aren't getting the job done so it will be time to move on soon enough. In the meantime try and be a solid contributor or stop wasting pixels.

[bobblehead]

Haven't you heard, Bobble? MM's working on that this week - getting it fixed.

All is well, I just hope he is getting it fixed better than he gets pad level fixed.

[Partial]

Both College and Spitz have put together quality seasons at guard. Unless they've actually regressed I think there's something else to blame. I can't speculate once but it just doesn't make sense that two solid starters turned to shit.

Colledge has been horrible this year. Last week he gave up 2 more sacks.

Spitz has missed the majority of the season due to injury but did not look good when healthy either.

[Partial]

Do you ever think before you type, or do you start with a premise and just add in names, places and dates?? Spitz was doing fine at center and will be very good. Colledge has gone back to his 2nd year pass blocking technique. There is a problem there, I agree.

There was talk of benching Spitz when he was at Center and at LG. Furthermore, does this change the fact that they're likely in need of 3-4 new starting linemen after this year?

I cannot see Colledge being resigned. I don't see the Packers offering Spitz big money and I don't see him taking a short-term, cheap deal to play here coming off injury, either. I don't think either guy will be back.

[Fred's Slacks]

Spitz and Colledge are both free agents and both have shown that they are worth basically nothing at this point. Clifton and Tauscher are probably going to either retire or be gone after this year.

Pretty sad when TT's second, third and fourth rounders all were big time busts :(

Colledge is far too inconsistent to be a starter. He'll make a great play and then let someone get by him untouched.

Spitz cannot stay healthy and was pretty bad earlier this year. They may make a small offer to him.

Barbre is horrible and does not belong on an NFL Europe roster let alone an NFL one.

Lang and Sitton are the only ones who look capable of being solid starters and belonging. What is the deal with this?


We'll just pretend 2007 was the only year he's been the GM of this team and keep on this terrible pace of being either below average or mediocre. Great!

Really dude, at some point you gotta start posting something of substance instead of this garbage. No one wants to read the constant barrage of crap. You can do it, honest...the thread is about the OL, so try really hard to post something worthwhile regarding the topic.

Most of the guys (myself included) agree that TT has had enough time to field a winner. I still believe in his METHOD of building a winner, but obviously his "guys" aren't getting the job done so it will be time to move on soon enough. In the meantime try and be a solid contributor or stop wasting pixels. :bclap:

Well done.

Agree with everything you posted.

[rbaloha1]

Colledge should not be resigned. Too inconsistent. Unsure of the nature of Spitz's injury. Lang should replace Colledge. Still maintain Barbre should be a guard. Wells needs to be kept.

TT or whomever needs to use high picks on o-line. Ron Wolf found late round gems like Adam Timmerman, Mark Tauscher and Marco Rivera. Also used high picks on Aaron Taylor, Chad Cliffton and Earl Dotson.

TT has been unsuccessful in finding late round o-line gems. Needs to use higher round picks on o-linemen. Wonder if TT would have selected Andre Smith over Raji.

[ND72]

Spitz and Colledge are both free agents and both have shown that they are worth basically nothing at this point. Clifton and Tauscher are probably going to either retire or be gone after this year.

Pretty sad when TT's second, third and fourth rounders all were big time busts :(

Colledge is far too inconsistent to be a starter. He'll make a great play and then let someone get by him untouched.

Spitz cannot stay healthy and was pretty bad earlier this year. They may make a small offer to him.

Barbre is horrible and does not belong on an NFL Europe roster let alone an NFL one.

Lang and Sitton are the only ones who look capable of being solid starters and belonging. What is the deal with this?

Spitz has shown he can play, but never had the chance this year.
Colledge needs to play Tackle. We need to sign him, incentive based, and play him only at Tackle and see if it works out.
I personally will not be sad to see Tauscher and Clifton gone.
Barbre? What has (or hasn't) Barbre done lately? Chicago was his only horrible game. Other than that he has been invisible, which is what a RT should be.
Lang is an NFL Guard, but won't get that chance.
Sitton has shown a lot of fight.

I still think our best OL is
LT - Colledge
LG - Lang
C - Spitz
RG - Sitton
RT - Lang

I would still love to see a crazy LT come in though. After watching some of the Tampa game again, I have to say a ton of technique is horrilbe, and that's coaching. guys balances aren't correct, and in pass pro they are all too aggressive. Pass pro is a passive action, and when you're an aggressive pass pro guy, unless you're Jonathan Ogden, you're gonna get hammered. They all need to sit back into their pass pro and be patient, and they're not. That all comes down to Campen.

[Smidgeon]

Colledge has been horrible this year. Last week he gave up 2 more sacks.

Spitz has missed the majority of the season due to injury but did not look good when healthy either.

Again, you said this in another thread. Could you please substantiate your claim that Spitz did not look good?

[Bretsky]

Surprised on your Colledge take ND; the only time we saw him at LT he was a nightmare this year

[Partial]

Colledge has been horrible this year. Last week he gave up 2 more sacks.

Spitz has missed the majority of the season due to injury but did not look good when healthy either.

Again, you said this in another thread. Could you please substantiate your claim that Spitz did not look good?

Read the articles on JSO and Packersnews. I don't have the articles handy, no, and I don't have specific plays in mind. I recall specifically reading their was talk of benching Spitz for Lang at LG, and Spitz for Wells at center, since he was underwhelming.

Can you provide an example of a play where he has looked great and willed the OL to a solid performance? We've been a sieve up the middle...

[Guiness]

why all the talk of Lang at guard?

[The Leaper]

Apparently our OL will all be rookies next year...because TT sure as hell won't sign a good FA guy.

[ND72]

Surprised on your Colledge take ND; the only time we saw him at LT he was a nightmare this year

But he played there last year and did pretty good. I think if we moved him to tackle, even if he sits next year, it pays off. Like I said, not a big contract, make it worth something if he contributes.

As far as Teddy going to sign some big time FA.....who knows who will actually become a FA next year, and none of us know how the whole uncapped deal will work out.

[ND72]

why all the talk of Lang at guard?

Lang is an NFL guard...everything about him screams Mike Wahle. I think he looks just like him in the way he plays.

[pbmax]

Do you ever think before you type, or do you start with a premise and just add in names, places and dates?? Spitz was doing fine at center and will be very good. Colledge has gone back to his 2nd year pass blocking technique. There is a problem there, I agree.

There was talk of benching Spitz when he was at Center and at LG. Furthermore, does this change the fact that they're likely in need of 3-4 new starting linemen after this year?

I cannot see Colledge being resigned. I don't see the Packers offering Spitz big money and I don't see him taking a short-term, cheap deal to play here coming off injury, either. I don't think either guy will be back.
I don't recall talk of benching Spitz while at center. He does have limited upside at Guard, which is why the coaches were eager to have Sitton challenge him even as a rookie.

McGinn said they had to have considered benching Colledge and moving Spitz over with Wells at center. At this point they may wish to consider Lang at LG.

But for next year, there is too much up in the air to say we are going to have 2-3 new starters. Spitz is not going to cost a fortune at center and Clifton might be reasonably priced after injuries. So then you may be faced with a decision to let Colledge go and fill in with Lang. The only new to us starter might be at RT.

[pbmax]

why all the talk of Lang at guard?

Lang is an NFL guard...everything about him screams Mike Wahle. I think he looks just like him in the way he plays.
I agree that Lang is not big (height and length) enough for Left Tackle, but I could see him at Right Tackle.

Barbre gave up four pressures in a half against Tampa according to McGinn. He has solidified, but its been from unacceptable to below average in pass protection. Problem is, he will not get better unless he plays it.

I don't think Colledge can do Left Tackle, but you have a point. He spent no time there this year and then was thrown to Jared Allen is his first effort. If he spent an entire offseason and camp preparing there, it might look different. That could be our best current line, but I would think you are still looking to replace him.

I think they should figure out where Lang will fit best and go from there. He and Sitton might be the only sure things.

[Brandon494]

Lang will not move to guard, he is will be starting RT next season. We need to get Spitz and Colledge as well. Hopefully we'll trade/sign/draft a starter at LT.

LT: TBD
LG: Colledge
C:Spitz
RG:Sitton
RT: Lang

[3irty1]

I predict a line something like this next year:

LT: Not on the team right now
Clifton doesn't have much in the tank if anything. The only other player on the roster who could potentially take this is Colledge who has been effective in the past as a backup but after his performance this year I don't think you can roll the dice. This may have to be a rookie next year. It'd sure be nice to have Meredith to at least compete.

LG: Colledge or Spitz
Colledge is the incumbent and was probably our best all-round O lineman in 2008 but Spitz has been more consistent but my be left without a place to start with Sitton playing so well at RG and Wells at center.

C: Spitz or Wells
Or maybe even a rookie. Spitz and Wells are basically a toss up imo. I'd give Wells a slight nod because Spitz can back up anything on the interior meaning less musical chairs if someone gets hurt.

RG: Sitton
A real player. So far this year he's our best OL.

RT: Lang or Barbre
Should be a great battle and should leave us with a solid tackle. Barbre isn't as bad as people seem to think. I think he's made good strides over the season.

[denverYooper]

Colledge should not be resigned. Too inconsistent. Unsure of the nature of Spitz's injury. Lang should replace Colledge. Still maintain Barbre should be a guard. Wells needs to be kept.

TT or whomever needs to use high picks on o-line. Ron Wolf found late round gems like Adam Timmerman, Mark Tauscher and Marco Rivera. Also used high picks on Aaron Taylor, Chad Cliffton and Earl Dotson.

TT has been unsuccessful in finding late round o-line gems. Needs to use higher round picks on o-linemen. Wonder if TT would have selected Andre Smith over Raji.

Lang will replace somebody, but I think it might be Barbre. Sitton might be considered a gem. In fact, last week was kinda weird in that it was the first time I remember our interior OL being the bigger problem in pass pro. Those guys have played pretty well for the most part.

Let's pretend for a minute that Andre Smith was available at 9. TT may have actually taken him. We don't know. But considering that he has yet to play a game after a holdout and broken foot and Raji is contributing and looking better every week, that pick would be going over like a fart in church right now.

[The Shadow]

I wonder most about how these guys would play under an O line coach other than Campen.

[Partial]

3irty1, you want the same line back outside of Clifton? Judging how this year has gone, what makes you think next year will be different?

These guys aren't young players anymore. This is Spitz's and Colledge's 4th year starting. Sitton, the youngen of the starters, has been the best player. Barbre is in his third year on the team.

They are going to kill the player (Flynn or Rodgers) under center if they do not address the line situation. Going back in with the same line and a rookie LT is the kind of thing that gets you fired in most cities after the debacle known as our line.

How much longer are we going to be rebuilding for? This is the not for long leagu, not the now and forever league.

[Smidgeon]

Can you provide an example of a play where he has looked great and willed the OL to a solid performance? We've been a sieve up the middle...

Bears: 3 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Bengals: 5 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Rams: 2 sacks versus tackles, 0 sacks versus interior
Vikings: 7 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Lions: 2 sacks versus tackles, 3 sacks versus interior
Browns: 0 sacks
Vikings: 5 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Bucs: 4 sacks versus tackles, 2 sacks versus interior

(all courtesy of sacktracker)

Coincidentally (or not so coincidentally), the sacks against the interior increased when Spitz was benched with the back injury.

[Partial]

Can you provide an example of a play where he has looked great and willed the OL to a solid performance? We've been a sieve up the middle...

Bears: 3 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Bengals: 5 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Rams: 2 sacks versus tackles, 0 sacks versus interior
Vikings: 7 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Lions: 2 sacks versus tackles, 3 sacks versus interior
Browns: 0 sacks
Vikings: 5 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Bucs: 4 sacks versus tackles, 2 sacks versus interior

(all courtesy of sacktracker)

Coincidentally (or not so coincidentally), the sacks against the interior increased when Spitz was benched with the back injury.

I believe the discussion was after the Lions game where they were discussing benching Spitz on JSO.

I'm not surprised the sacks against the interior went up. Colledge came back from Tackle and hasn't been the same player. Spitz went out and they had to bring in a less capable back-up, etc. The reasons are logical.

[Smidgeon]

Can you provide an example of a play where he has looked great and willed the OL to a solid performance? We've been a sieve up the middle...

Bears: 3 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Bengals: 5 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Rams: 2 sacks versus tackles, 0 sacks versus interior
Vikings: 7 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Lions: 2 sacks versus tackles, 3 sacks versus interior
Browns: 0 sacks
Vikings: 5 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Bucs: 4 sacks versus tackles, 2 sacks versus interior

(all courtesy of sacktracker)

Coincidentally (or not so coincidentally), the sacks against the interior increased when Spitz was benched with the back injury.

I believe the discussion was after the Lions game where they were discussing benching Spitz on JSO.

I'm not surprised the sacks against the interior went up. Colledge came back from Tackle and hasn't been the same player. Spitz went out and they had to bring in a less capable back-up, etc. The reasons are logical.

So now you think Spitz is good? Help me out here.

[Partial]

Can you provide an example of a play where he has looked great and willed the OL to a solid performance? We've been a sieve up the middle...

Bears: 3 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Bengals: 5 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Rams: 2 sacks versus tackles, 0 sacks versus interior
Vikings: 7 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Lions: 2 sacks versus tackles, 3 sacks versus interior
Browns: 0 sacks
Vikings: 5 sacks versus tackles, 1 sack versus interior
Bucs: 4 sacks versus tackles, 2 sacks versus interior

(all courtesy of sacktracker)

Coincidentally (or not so coincidentally), the sacks against the interior increased when Spitz was benched with the back injury.

I believe the discussion was after the Lions game where they were discussing benching Spitz on JSO.

I'm not surprised the sacks against the interior went up. Colledge came back from Tackle and hasn't been the same player. Spitz went out and they had to bring in a less capable back-up, etc. The reasons are logical.

So now you think Spitz is good? Help me out here.

I think Spitz is the best of Colledge, Spitz and Moll, if thats what you're asking. Better than bad != good. He's capable and was supposed to be an anchor this year, but he got hurt and was having a bad year before that.

I'm not saying he won't bounce back, but I doubt the Pack will pony up enough cash knowing he's coming off of injury.

[Brohm]

I'd like to see how these guys respond to crazy Larry Beightol getting after their asses.. He had the OL in peak form prior to the cap/FA fallout when TT replaced Sherman. Campen is useless.

[3irty1]

3irty1, you want the same line back outside of Clifton? Judging how this year has gone, what makes you think next year will be different?

These guys aren't young players anymore. This is Spitz's and Colledge's 4th year starting. Sitton, the youngen of the starters, has been the best player. Barbre is in his third year on the team.

They are going to kill the player (Flynn or Rodgers) under center if they do not address the line situation. Going back in with the same line and a rookie LT is the kind of thing that gets you fired in most cities after the debacle known as our line.

How much longer are we going to be rebuilding for? This is the not for long leagu, not the now and forever league.

So far this season the tackles are really the big problem. I suggested that this be solved with a rookie and a Lang/Barbre showdown. I've seen the interior line play better than this. Like you said these aren't young guys but they are too young to be falling apart. Nobody really knows what's going on right now with them but I'd at least give them a chance to bounce back. I still think they could have their act together by the end of the season. I don't think we need 3 or 4 new guys.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

One must judge the line individually and collectively. While one can possibly judge individual performance, there is NO WAY to judge this line collectively.

They didn't play enough games together at their projected positions to EVERY achieve a level of cohesiveness.

Ty is for keeping most of them, and looking for a LT. Ty firmly believes that the talent is there and that playing each player at one position for a season and together is necessary to truly evaluate the line.

[Partial]

One must judge the line individually and collectively. While one can possibly judge individual performance, there is NO WAY to judge this line collectively.

They didn't play enough games together at their projected positions to EVERY achieve a level of cohesiveness.

Ty is for keeping most of them, and looking for a LT. Ty firmly believes that the talent is there and that playing each player at one position for a season and together is necessary to truly evaluate the line.

How much more time do these guys get? Clifton, Tauscher, Colledge and Spitz have been on the line together for years. Clifton and Colledge are going on 4 years next to eachother yet they both have looked like hell.

I've never been a Colledge fan so as far as I'm concerned he can head out. I want Spitz to succeed but I don't think they'll resign him as he'll get offered good money by another club.

My beef with the whole thing lately is we are perpetually rebuilding. We've been doing this for five years now. Are we any better for it? Not really. The talented players on the team, with the exception of Rodgers and Jennings, are basically 5 years older and slower. Jennings is a poor man's JWalk (when healthy and before mental issues) and Rodgers is a very poor man's Favre.

So, I don't get it. We're worse off in 2009 than we were in 2005 at the following positions, if I remember the players correctly

1. QB
2. RB
3. WR - Though Walker was hurt, but the starting talent was higher
4. LT
5. RT
6. RG
7. LG
8. DE -> LOLB (Kampman was entering his prime)
9. CB, Harris was at the top of his game then
10. MLB -> Barnett isn't the same player after ACL tear

One could argue there were other pushes on the roster. Tough to make a case of better starting talent now, but we might have more average depth aka household name depth. Not sure what good that is, though.

Mike V with an article on the subject matter. No Rob D, though :-/

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091110/PKR07/91110178/1058/pkr01&referrer=pkr01CAROUSEL

[Smidgeon]

One must judge the line individually and collectively. While one can possibly judge individual performance, there is NO WAY to judge this line collectively.

They didn't play enough games together at their projected positions to EVERY achieve a level of cohesiveness.

Ty is for keeping most of them, and looking for a LT. Ty firmly believes that the talent is there and that playing each player at one position for a season and together is necessary to truly evaluate the line.

How much more time do these guys get? Clifton, Tauscher, Colledge and Spitz have been on the line together for years. Clifton and Colledge are going on 4 years next to eachother yet they both have looked like hell.

I've never been a Colledge fan so as far as I'm concerned he can head out. I want Spitz to succeed but I don't think they'll resign him as he'll get offered good money by another club.

My beef with the whole thing lately is we are perpetually rebuilding. We've been doing this for five years now. Are we any better for it? Not really. The talented players on the team, with the exception of Rodgers and Jennings, are basically 5 years older and slower. Jennings is a poor man's JWalk (when healthy and before mental issues) and Rodgers is a very poor man's Favre.

So, I don't get it. We're worse off in 2009 than we were in 2005 at the following positions, if I remember the players correctly

1. QB
2. RB
3. WR - Though Walker was hurt, but the starting talent was higher
4. LT
5. RT
6. RG
7. LG
8. DE -> LOLB (Kampman was entering his prime)
9. CB, Harris was at the top of his game then
10. MLB -> Barnett isn't the same player after ACL tear

One could argue there were other pushes on the roster. Tough to make a case of better starting talent now, but we might have more average depth aka household name depth. Not sure what good that is, though.

Mike V with an article on the subject matter. No Rob D, though :-/

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091110/PKR07/91110178/1058/pkr01&referrer=pkr01CAROUSEL

I hope you really don't mean 2005 because the Packers were 4-12 that year. By subjective measure:



2005 - Offense 2009 - Offense Note
POS - Name POS - Name
QB - Brett Favre < QB - Aaron Rodgers Though overall BF is better, this was a bad year for him
RB - Samkon Gado < RB - Ryan Grant Ahman Green was injured most of the year
FB - William Henderson > FB - John Kuhn Personal preference
WR - Donald Driver = WR - Donald Driver
WR - Robert Ferguson < WR - Greg Jennings Javon Walker was on IR
TE - David Martin < TE - Donald Lee
LT - Chad Clifton > LT - Chad Clifton I'll take a younger CC any time
LG - Scott Wells < LG - Daryn Colledge There's a reason Wells isn't at G anymore
C - Mike Flanagan > C - Jason Spitz Wily ol' vet wins
RG - Will Whitticker < RG - Josh Sitton Not even a question
RT - Mark Tauscher > RT - Allen Barbre Again, wily ol' vet wins

2005 - Defense 2005 - Defense
POS - Name POS - Name
LDE - Aaron Kampman > LDE - Johnny Jolly
LDT - Grady Jackson < NT - Ryan Pickett
RDT - Cullen Jenkins < NT - Ryan Pickett
RDE - KGB > RDE - Cullen Jenkins
LLB - Paris Lenon < LOLB - Aaron Kampman
MLB - Nick Barnett < MLB - Nick Barnett I'll take a more experienced NB
MLB - Nick Barnett > MLB - A. J. Hawk
RLB - Robert Thomas < ROLB - Clay Matthews III
RCB - Al Harris < RCB - Al Harris Gets better with age
LCB - Ahmad Carroll < LCB - Charles Woodson This one is enough to give the nod to 2009
SS - Mark Roman < SS - Atari Bigby Close, but not so close
FS - Nick Collins < FS - Nick Collins Again, I'll take a more experienced NC
K - Ryan Longwell > K - Mason Crosby Weaker leg, but more accurate
P - BJ Sander < P - Jeremy Kapinos Lesser of two evils

[Tyrone Bigguns]

One must judge the line individually and collectively. While one can possibly judge individual performance, there is NO WAY to judge this line collectively.

They didn't play enough games together at their projected positions to EVERY achieve a level of cohesiveness.

Ty is for keeping most of them, and looking for a LT. Ty firmly believes that the talent is there and that playing each player at one position for a season and together is necessary to truly evaluate the line.

How much more time do these guys get? Clifton, Tauscher, Colledge and Spitz have been on the line together for years. Clifton and Colledge are going on 4 years next to eachother yet they both have looked like hell.

I've never been a Colledge fan so as far as I'm concerned he can head out. I want Spitz to succeed but I don't think they'll resign him as he'll get offered good money by another club.

My beef with the whole thing lately is we are perpetually rebuilding. We've been doing this for five years now. Are we any better for it? Not really. The talented players on the team, with the exception of Rodgers and Jennings, are basically 5 years older and slower. Jennings is a poor man's JWalk (when healthy and before mental issues) and Rodgers is a very poor man's Favre.

So, I don't get it. We're worse off in 2009 than we were in 2005 at the following positions, if I remember the players correctly

1. QB
2. RB
3. WR - Though Walker was hurt, but the starting talent was higher
4. LT
5. RT
6. RG
7. LG
8. DE -> LOLB (Kampman was entering his prime)
9. CB, Harris was at the top of his game then
10. MLB -> Barnett isn't the same player after ACL tear

One could argue there were other pushes on the roster. Tough to make a case of better starting talent now, but we might have more average depth aka household name depth. Not sure what good that is, though.

Mike V with an article on the subject matter. No Rob D, though :-/

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091110/PKR07/91110178/1058/pkr01&referrer=pkr01CAROUSEL

It would be nice if you were factual. Spitz wasn't on the line playing center for years.

Are you actually going to count this year as time together? LOL

Funny, i seem to recall tausch being gone for about 25% of the season last year...and at the end, just the time when you would expect things to be jelling at its best.

How has Spitz been "together for years?" This year he has been injured. Started all 16 last year for the first time...and CENTER was his NEW position.

Why would you bring up Clifton? Who is talking about him. Do you just like being stupid. What part about looking for a new LT didn't you understand?

Colledge has looked like hell at TACKLE. He had a bad game at Tampa. Should we forget his all rookie team? Should we forget how well he played last year?

What part of LINE TOGETHER don't you understand? Sitton and Barbre are first year starters.

It is barely worth responding as you don't even attempt to deal in reality.

Let's look this year's line at the start of the season: New RT, New G, New Center..that is 60% NEW. Then, you add in Clifton being injured and Lang starting...not to mention Colledge being shifted. Yeah, they really got a chance to jell.

To even attempt to make judgements about how this year's line has played as a group is asinine.

[Fritz]

Here's what I don't understand and I hope others can help me understand. I know there is an importance to a group playing as a group over a period of time. This has to do with picking up stunts, knowing what the guy next to you will do if "A" or "B" happens, all of that.

However, when I watch this team pass blocking, I often think I am simply seeing guys getting whupped by the guys across from them. It doesn't seem like they're missing assignments, or "gee I didn't know you were gonna block that guy," though that does I am sure happen. But when I see the tackles trying to pass block defensive ends, those tackles - doesn't matter who, either - seem to get shoved right back into Rodgers's hip pocket every time. This seems more like a one-on-one problem than a cohesion problem.

But I don't know much about line play, so can someone help me understand how much of the problem is just one-on-one getting your butt beat, and how much is a result of not playing together, and how that not playing together might affect what I'm describing?

[Deputy Nutz]

I think there is more to look at than just phyiscal play. There have been so many blown assignments and missed calls it is pathetic. The coaching and fundamentals both mentally and physically is a huge disappointment and it is the right thing to do to blame the coaching staff, you have to be able to coach up young players and even veterans.

I am very down on this coaching staff as a whole so I am going to reserve judgement on the offensive line at this point because who really knows where the talent is, if there is any at all.

[pbmax]

Here's what I don't understand and I hope others can help me understand. I know there is an importance to a group playing as a group over a period of time. This has to do with picking up stunts, knowing what the guy next to you will do if "A" or "B" happens, all of that.

However, when I watch this team pass blocking, I often think I am simply seeing guys getting whupped by the guys across from them. It doesn't seem like they're missing assignments, or "gee I didn't know you were gonna block that guy," though that does I am sure happen. But when I see the tackles trying to pass block defensive ends, those tackles - doesn't matter who, either - seem to get shoved right back into Rodgers's hip pocket every time. This seems more like a one-on-one problem than a cohesion problem.

But I don't know much about line play, so can someone help me understand how much of the problem is just one-on-one getting your butt beat, and how much is a result of not playing together, and how that not playing together might affect what I'm describing?
Its timing. Look at Colledge and the problem he is having with stunts (DT runs across Guard to hit Tackle, DE runs around DT to penetrate Guard gap or vice versa). Colledge is supposed to hit the DT early then pass him off to the tackle so the Guard can recover and stop the DE. Colledge is hitting the guy late and allowing penetration, and that leaves Clifton hanging on to keep Rodgers from major surgery and then Colledge is late sliding to pick up the DE. The pass off is problematic and slow. Every split second they are late, the pocket is growing smaller.

Colledge is either keying on the wrong thing or waiting for a cue from Clifton. Or he might just have ADD. Either way, a line that has been together a long time could change something just a little to quicken Colledge's reaction. It might be a nudge from Clifton, a shout or a look. Might be a line call to look left first. They might change Colledge's first step, or spacing. Or they might hit him in the head with a Gatorade cooler.

But his longtime teammate might know what he needs or might be in a position to embarrass him enough to straighten the problem out on his own. When I played, I used to have to decide what technique I was using at tackle then tell the Guard what technique to use. He was a great guy, but not fast on the uptake, if you know what I mean. Once, and this may be the highlight of my career, the asst. coach asked the TE to check with me what to do. The head coach said we can't do that, pbmax is already playing two positions. :lol:

[Maxie the Taxi]

Here's what I don't understand and I hope others can help me understand. I know there is an importance to a group playing as a group over a period of time. This has to do with picking up stunts, knowing what the guy next to you will do if "A" or "B" happens, all of that.

However, when I watch this team pass blocking, I often think I am simply seeing guys getting whupped by the guys across from them. It doesn't seem like they're missing assignments, or "gee I didn't know you were gonna block that guy," though that does I am sure happen. But when I see the tackles trying to pass block defensive ends, those tackles - doesn't matter who, either - seem to get shoved right back into Rodgers's hip pocket every time. This seems more like a one-on-one problem than a cohesion problem.

But I don't know much about line play, so can someone help me understand how much of the problem is just one-on-one getting your butt beat, and how much is a result of not playing together, and how that not playing together might affect what I'm describing?

Vince Lombardi had a talent for simplifying the game...

"You never win the game unless you beat the guy in front of you. The score on the board doesn't mean a thing . Thats for the fans. You've got to win the war with the man in front of you . You've got to get your man."

"Some people try to find things in this game that don't exist but football is only two things - blocking and tackling."

[Partial]

One must judge the line individually and collectively. While one can possibly judge individual performance, there is NO WAY to judge this line collectively.

They didn't play enough games together at their projected positions to EVERY achieve a level of cohesiveness.

Ty is for keeping most of them, and looking for a LT. Ty firmly believes that the talent is there and that playing each player at one position for a season and together is necessary to truly evaluate the line.

How much more time do these guys get? Clifton, Tauscher, Colledge and Spitz have been on the line together for years. Clifton and Colledge are going on 4 years next to eachother yet they both have looked like hell.

I've never been a Colledge fan so as far as I'm concerned he can head out. I want Spitz to succeed but I don't think they'll resign him as he'll get offered good money by another club.

My beef with the whole thing lately is we are perpetually rebuilding. We've been doing this for five years now. Are we any better for it? Not really. The talented players on the team, with the exception of Rodgers and Jennings, are basically 5 years older and slower. Jennings is a poor man's JWalk (when healthy and before mental issues) and Rodgers is a very poor man's Favre.

So, I don't get it. We're worse off in 2009 than we were in 2005 at the following positions, if I remember the players correctly

1. QB
2. RB
3. WR - Though Walker was hurt, but the starting talent was higher
4. LT
5. RT
6. RG
7. LG
8. DE -> LOLB (Kampman was entering his prime)
9. CB, Harris was at the top of his game then
10. MLB -> Barnett isn't the same player after ACL tear

One could argue there were other pushes on the roster. Tough to make a case of better starting talent now, but we might have more average depth aka household name depth. Not sure what good that is, though.

Mike V with an article on the subject matter. No Rob D, though :-/

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091110/PKR07/91110178/1058/pkr01&referrer=pkr01CAROUSEL

I hope you really don't mean 2005 because the Packers were 4-12 that year. By subjective measure:



2005 - Offense 2009 - Offense Note
POS - Name POS - Name
QB - Brett Favre < QB - Aaron Rodgers Though overall BF is better, this was a bad year for him
RB - Samkon Gado < RB - Ryan Grant Ahman Green was injured most of the year
FB - William Henderson > FB - John Kuhn Personal preference
WR - Donald Driver = WR - Donald Driver
WR - Robert Ferguson < WR - Greg Jennings Javon Walker was on IR
TE - David Martin < TE - Donald Lee
LT - Chad Clifton > LT - Chad Clifton I'll take a younger CC any time
LG - Scott Wells < LG - Daryn Colledge There's a reason Wells isn't at G anymore
C - Mike Flanagan > C - Jason Spitz Wily ol' vet wins
RG - Will Whitticker < RG - Josh Sitton Not even a question
RT - Mark Tauscher > RT - Allen Barbre Again, wily ol' vet wins

2005 - Defense 2005 - Defense
POS - Name POS - Name
LDE - Aaron Kampman > LDE - Johnny Jolly
LDT - Grady Jackson < NT - Ryan Pickett
RDT - Cullen Jenkins < NT - Ryan Pickett
RDE - KGB > RDE - Cullen Jenkins
LLB - Paris Lenon < LOLB - Aaron Kampman
MLB - Nick Barnett < MLB - Nick Barnett I'll take a more experienced NB
MLB - Nick Barnett > MLB - A. J. Hawk
RLB - Robert Thomas < ROLB - Clay Matthews III
RCB - Al Harris < RCB - Al Harris Gets better with age
LCB - Ahmad Carroll < LCB - Charles Woodson This one is enough to give the nod to 2009
SS - Mark Roman < SS - Atari Bigby Close, but not so close
FS - Nick Collins < FS - Nick Collins Again, I'll take a more experienced NC
K - Ryan Longwell > K - Mason Crosby Weaker leg, but more accurate
P - BJ Sander < P - Jeremy Kapinos Lesser of two evils



Classy to pick and choose data. Naturally we entered the season with those players as starters.

[3irty1]

I hope you really don't mean 2005 because the Packers were 4-12 that year. By subjective measure:



2005 - Offense 2009 - Offense Note
POS - Name POS - Name
QB - Brett Favre < QB - Aaron Rodgers Though overall BF is better, this was a bad year for him
RB - Samkon Gado < RB - Ryan Grant Ahman Green was injured most of the year
FB - William Henderson > FB - John Kuhn Personal preference
WR - Donald Driver = WR - Donald Driver
WR - Robert Ferguson < WR - Greg Jennings Javon Walker was on IR
TE - David Martin < TE - Donald Lee
LT - Chad Clifton > LT - Chad Clifton I'll take a younger CC any time
LG - Scott Wells < LG - Daryn Colledge There's a reason Wells isn't at G anymore
C - Mike Flanagan > C - Jason Spitz Wily ol' vet wins
RG - Will Whitticker < RG - Josh Sitton Not even a question
RT - Mark Tauscher > RT - Allen Barbre Again, wily ol' vet wins

2005 - Defense 2005 - Defense
POS - Name POS - Name
LDE - Aaron Kampman > LDE - Johnny Jolly
LDT - Grady Jackson < NT - Ryan Pickett
RDT - Cullen Jenkins < NT - Ryan Pickett
RDE - KGB > RDE - Cullen Jenkins
LLB - Paris Lenon < LOLB - Aaron Kampman
MLB - Nick Barnett < MLB - Nick Barnett I'll take a more experienced NB
MLB - Nick Barnett > MLB - A. J. Hawk
RLB - Robert Thomas < ROLB - Clay Matthews III
RCB - Al Harris < RCB - Al Harris Gets better with age
LCB - Ahmad Carroll < LCB - Charles Woodson This one is enough to give the nod to 2009
SS - Mark Roman < SS - Atari Bigby Close, but not so close
FS - Nick Collins < FS - Nick Collins Again, I'll take a more experienced NC
K - Ryan Longwell > K - Mason Crosby Weaker leg, but more accurate
P - BJ Sander < P - Jeremy Kapinos Lesser of two evils


From a rebuilding argument you can't take injuries into account. You've got to go with the talent the team was given in the beginning of the season. Also I think you've got to compare 3-4 DE's to 4-3 DT's and 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLBs.

You look at how we now have Woodson instead of Carroll and laugh but the 2005 secondary was excellent. Harris's best year IMO. KGB while not fully suck and Kampman in his prime is more pass rush than we have now. We're certainly better off against the run now.

On offense we're worse on the line certainly as we've not been able to replace our old pro-bowl tackles who are starting to break down. Despite DD getting older and no longer having Walker I'd say were better at WR although not by much. We're much better at TE. We're about the same at RB. And if you assume that Brett Favre was at least as good then as he is now we were better at QB although I don't believe this.

I'd take 2009 Favre over 2005 Favre. They are two different players. Partial makes a good point IMO. Some very important areas of the team have dropped off. The 2005 line was good enough to make Samkon Gado a star. Weird to think about now. Also we have a worse pass rush.

[Noodle]

Fritzy makes a good point. No doubt PBMax is right that there are problems with stunt pickup.

But I've seen the same thing Fritz has -- our OL guys being walked, no run, right back in to Rodgers' lap. We seem especially weak in dealing with bull rushes, which is unfortunate given the number of big strong men who play defense in the NFL.

ND may be right that they are being too aggressive, but to me, they just look like they're getting their butts whipped.

[rbaloha1]

Yes, Colledge has problems with stunts but also gets overpowered at the point of attack.

Colledge should not be resigned.

[Partial]

But I've seen the same thing Fritz has -- our OL guys being walked, no run, right back in to Rodgers' lap. We seem especially weak in dealing with bull rushes, which is unfortunate given the number of big strong men who play defense in the NFL.


:lol: :lol:

[wist43]

Surprised on your Colledge take ND; the only time we saw him at LT he was a nightmare this year

But he played there last year and did pretty good. I think if we moved him to tackle, even if he sits next year, it pays off. Like I said, not a big contract, make it worth something if he contributes.

As far as Teddy going to sign some big time FA.....who knows who will actually become a FA next year, and none of us know how the whole uncapped deal will work out.

I think that speaks to what Colledge actually is - wildly inconsistent. Probably always will be... he was a major headcase in his rookie camp; seemed to grow up a bit; but has really done nothing with opportunity in front of him.

Right now, this is just a bad OL all the way around.

[Smidgeon]

Classy to pick and choose data. Naturally we entered the season with those players as starters.

Make your own list if you want to compare the starters who started the season. I didn't put Brady Poppinga in there either for 2009. I chose to present who's been starting (or did start) most of the season at that position.

[Smidgeon]

From a rebuilding argument you can't take injuries into account. You've got to go with the talent the team was given in the beginning of the season. Also I think you've got to compare 3-4 DE's to 4-3 DT's and 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLBs.

You look at how we now have Woodson instead of Carroll and laugh but the 2005 secondary was excellent. Harris's best year IMO. KGB while not fully suck and Kampman in his prime is more pass rush than we have now. We're certainly better off against the run now.

On offense we're worse on the line certainly as we've not been able to replace our old pro-bowl tackles who are starting to break down. Despite DD getting older and no longer having Walker I'd say were better at WR although not by much. We're much better at TE. We're about the same at RB. And if you assume that Brett Favre was at least as good then as he is now we were better at QB although I don't believe this.

I'd take 2009 Favre over 2005 Favre. They are two different players. Partial makes a good point IMO. Some very important areas of the team have dropped off. The 2005 line was good enough to make Samkon Gado a star. Weird to think about now. Also we have a worse pass rush.

There was no way the 2005 secondary was excellent with Grabby McFlag aka Ahmad Carroll starting back there. I happen to think Al Harris has gotten better since then.

I agree that the 2005 pass rush was better.

In general, I think BF is better (as he's proven over the course of his career), but in this instance, 2005 was his worst year as a QB when you look at QB rating. He threw 29 interceptions to 20 touchdowns. AR is on pace for 32 touchdowns and 10 interceptions. Say he only gets 25 and 15: I'd still say that taking this one year to one year comparison that AR is playing better.

[Fritz]

Surprised on your Colledge take ND; the only time we saw him at LT he was a nightmare this year

But he played there last year and did pretty good. I think if we moved him to tackle, even if he sits next year, it pays off. Like I said, not a big contract, make it worth something if he contributes.

As far as Teddy going to sign some big time FA.....who knows who will actually become a FA next year, and none of us know how the whole uncapped deal will work out.

I think that speaks to what Colledge actually is - wildly inconsistent. Probably always will be... he was a major headcase in his rookie camp; seemed to grow up a bit; but has really done nothing with opportunity in front of him.

Right now, this is just a bad OL all the way around.

I would think this must be driving the coaches Nuts. Deputy Nutz. He looks like an NFL guard for a while, then he looks like Don Knotts. WTF?

[retailguy]

I think there is more to look at than just phyiscal play. There have been so many blown assignments and missed calls it is pathetic. The coaching and fundamentals both mentally and physically is a huge disappointment and it is the right thing to do to blame the coaching staff, you have to be able to coach up young players and even veterans.

I am very down on this coaching staff as a whole so I am going to reserve judgement on the offensive line at this point because who really knows where the talent is, if there is any at all.

I think Tony Moll is proof that there is talent on the line. He'll never be a pro bowler, but has played relatively well in Baltimore. That is what has me down on the coaching staff. What did Baltimore see that we missed?

That guy was horribly inconsistent here, and has played consistently there in Baltimore. That HAS to be coaching. You could make a little argument that he'd rather be in Balt. than here, but if that's the case, then why?

[Scott Campbell]

There was no way the 2005 secondary was excellent with Grabby McFlag aka Ahmad Carroll starting back there.



That guy had two of the funniest nicknames in Packer History:

Grabby Smurf
Highway 24

[3irty1]

From a rebuilding argument you can't take injuries into account. You've got to go with the talent the team was given in the beginning of the season. Also I think you've got to compare 3-4 DE's to 4-3 DT's and 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLBs.

You look at how we now have Woodson instead of Carroll and laugh but the 2005 secondary was excellent. Harris's best year IMO. KGB while not fully suck and Kampman in his prime is more pass rush than we have now. We're certainly better off against the run now.

On offense we're worse on the line certainly as we've not been able to replace our old pro-bowl tackles who are starting to break down. Despite DD getting older and no longer having Walker I'd say were better at WR although not by much. We're much better at TE. We're about the same at RB. And if you assume that Brett Favre was at least as good then as he is now we were better at QB although I don't believe this.

I'd take 2009 Favre over 2005 Favre. They are two different players. Partial makes a good point IMO. Some very important areas of the team have dropped off. The 2005 line was good enough to make Samkon Gado a star. Weird to think about now. Also we have a worse pass rush.

There was no way the 2005 secondary was excellent with Grabby McFlag aka Ahmad Carroll starting back there. I happen to think Al Harris has gotten better since then.

I agree that the 2005 pass rush was better.

In general, I think BF is better (as he's proven over the course of his career), but in this instance, 2005 was his worst year as a QB when you look at QB rating. He threw 29 interceptions to 20 touchdowns. AR is on pace for 32 touchdowns and 10 interceptions. Say he only gets 25 and 15: I'd still say that taking this one year to one year comparison that AR is playing better.

That secondary was ranked 5th.

[Smidgeon]

That secondary was ranked 5th.

What was the run defense ranked that year?

[ThunderDan]

From a rebuilding argument you can't take injuries into account. You've got to go with the talent the team was given in the beginning of the season. Also I think you've got to compare 3-4 DE's to 4-3 DT's and 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLBs.

You look at how we now have Woodson instead of Carroll and laugh but the 2005 secondary was excellent. Harris's best year IMO. KGB while not fully suck and Kampman in his prime is more pass rush than we have now. We're certainly better off against the run now.

On offense we're worse on the line certainly as we've not been able to replace our old pro-bowl tackles who are starting to break down. Despite DD getting older and no longer having Walker I'd say were better at WR although not by much. We're much better at TE. We're about the same at RB. And if you assume that Brett Favre was at least as good then as he is now we were better at QB although I don't believe this.

I'd take 2009 Favre over 2005 Favre. They are two different players. Partial makes a good point IMO. Some very important areas of the team have dropped off. The 2005 line was good enough to make Samkon Gado a star. Weird to think about now. Also we have a worse pass rush.

There was no way the 2005 secondary was excellent with Grabby McFlag aka Ahmad Carroll starting back there. I happen to think Al Harris has gotten better since then.

I agree that the 2005 pass rush was better.

In general, I think BF is better (as he's proven over the course of his career), but in this instance, 2005 was his worst year as a QB when you look at QB rating. He threw 29 interceptions to 20 touchdowns. AR is on pace for 32 touchdowns and 10 interceptions. Say he only gets 25 and 15: I'd still say that taking this one year to one year comparison that AR is playing better.

That secondary was ranked 5th.

Sorry, 3irty1. No one had to throw the ball against the Pack because they could run it all day in 2005.

[3irty1]

From a rebuilding argument you can't take injuries into account. You've got to go with the talent the team was given in the beginning of the season. Also I think you've got to compare 3-4 DE's to 4-3 DT's and 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLBs.

You look at how we now have Woodson instead of Carroll and laugh but the 2005 secondary was excellent. Harris's best year IMO. KGB while not fully suck and Kampman in his prime is more pass rush than we have now. We're certainly better off against the run now.

On offense we're worse on the line certainly as we've not been able to replace our old pro-bowl tackles who are starting to break down. Despite DD getting older and no longer having Walker I'd say were better at WR although not by much. We're much better at TE. We're about the same at RB. And if you assume that Brett Favre was at least as good then as he is now we were better at QB although I don't believe this.

I'd take 2009 Favre over 2005 Favre. They are two different players. Partial makes a good point IMO. Some very important areas of the team have dropped off. The 2005 line was good enough to make Samkon Gado a star. Weird to think about now. Also we have a worse pass rush.

There was no way the 2005 secondary was excellent with Grabby McFlag aka Ahmad Carroll starting back there. I happen to think Al Harris has gotten better since then.

I agree that the 2005 pass rush was better.

In general, I think BF is better (as he's proven over the course of his career), but in this instance, 2005 was his worst year as a QB when you look at QB rating. He threw 29 interceptions to 20 touchdowns. AR is on pace for 32 touchdowns and 10 interceptions. Say he only gets 25 and 15: I'd still say that taking this one year to one year comparison that AR is playing better.

That secondary was ranked 5th.

Sorry, 3irty1. No one had to throw the ball against the Pack because they could run it all day in 2005.

I take it back they were 1st against the pass. 23rd against the run. 19th in scoring.

[Waldo]

From a rebuilding argument you can't take injuries into account. You've got to go with the talent the team was given in the beginning of the season. Also I think you've got to compare 3-4 DE's to 4-3 DT's and 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLBs.

You look at how we now have Woodson instead of Carroll and laugh but the 2005 secondary was excellent. Harris's best year IMO. KGB while not fully suck and Kampman in his prime is more pass rush than we have now. We're certainly better off against the run now.

On offense we're worse on the line certainly as we've not been able to replace our old pro-bowl tackles who are starting to break down. Despite DD getting older and no longer having Walker I'd say were better at WR although not by much. We're much better at TE. We're about the same at RB. And if you assume that Brett Favre was at least as good then as he is now we were better at QB although I don't believe this.

I'd take 2009 Favre over 2005 Favre. They are two different players. Partial makes a good point IMO. Some very important areas of the team have dropped off. The 2005 line was good enough to make Samkon Gado a star. Weird to think about now. Also we have a worse pass rush.

There was no way the 2005 secondary was excellent with Grabby McFlag aka Ahmad Carroll starting back there. I happen to think Al Harris has gotten better since then.

I agree that the 2005 pass rush was better.

In general, I think BF is better (as he's proven over the course of his career), but in this instance, 2005 was his worst year as a QB when you look at QB rating. He threw 29 interceptions to 20 touchdowns. AR is on pace for 32 touchdowns and 10 interceptions. Say he only gets 25 and 15: I'd still say that taking this one year to one year comparison that AR is playing better.

That secondary was ranked 5th.

Sorry, 3irty1. No one had to throw the ball against the Pack because they could run it all day in 2005.

I take it back they were 1st against the pass. 23rd against the run. 19th in scoring.

Yards is a stupid measure for defense.

They were 22nd in TD's given up
They were 25th in passer rating agaisnt
They were 13th in passing YPA
They were 26th in interceptions
They were 16th in 1st down %
They were 20th in sacks
They were 1st in the volume of yards given up

They were not effective at stopping the pass. It was so easy to run, that passing was pointless. Hence they hardly gave up any yards. When opponents did pass, our pass defense sucked.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I think there is more to look at than just phyiscal play. There have been so many blown assignments and missed calls it is pathetic. The coaching and fundamentals both mentally and physically is a huge disappointment and it is the right thing to do to blame the coaching staff, you have to be able to coach up young players and even veterans.

I am very down on this coaching staff as a whole so I am going to reserve judgement on the offensive line at this point because who really knows where the talent is, if there is any at all.

I think Tony Moll is proof that there is talent on the line. He'll never be a pro bowler, but has played relatively well in Baltimore. That is what has me down on the coaching staff. What did Baltimore see that we missed?

That guy was horribly inconsistent here, and has played consistently there in Baltimore. That HAS to be coaching. You could make a little argument that he'd rather be in Balt. than here, but if that's the case, then why?

Well, this folks is why we all love Retail. He has played relatively well. He has played consistently there in baltimore.

Sounds reasonable. Seems like RG is actually watching the games. We might wonder how many games he has watched? Surely he has seen some. Right?

He wouldn't be pulling this out of his ass would he?

Wk 1: Moll inactive
Wk 2: Moll inactive
Wk 4: Moll inactive
Wk 7: Moll inactive
Wk 8: Moll inactive


http://www.nfl.com/inactives?team=BAL

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

[SnakeLH2006]

Yes, Colledge has problems with stunts but also gets overpowered at the point of attack.

Colledge should not be resigned.

Amen.

[pbmax]

From a rebuilding argument you can't take injuries into account. You've got to go with the talent the team was given in the beginning of the season. Also I think you've got to compare 3-4 DE's to 4-3 DT's and 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLBs.

You look at how we now have Woodson instead of Carroll and laugh but the 2005 secondary was excellent. Harris's best year IMO. KGB while not fully suck and Kampman in his prime is more pass rush than we have now. We're certainly better off against the run now.

On offense we're worse on the line certainly as we've not been able to replace our old pro-bowl tackles who are starting to break down. Despite DD getting older and no longer having Walker I'd say were better at WR although not by much. We're much better at TE. We're about the same at RB. And if you assume that Brett Favre was at least as good then as he is now we were better at QB although I don't believe this.

I'd take 2009 Favre over 2005 Favre. They are two different players. Partial makes a good point IMO. Some very important areas of the team have dropped off. The 2005 line was good enough to make Samkon Gado a star. Weird to think about now. Also we have a worse pass rush.

There was no way the 2005 secondary was excellent with Grabby McFlag aka Ahmad Carroll starting back there. I happen to think Al Harris has gotten better since then.

I agree that the 2005 pass rush was better.

In general, I think BF is better (as he's proven over the course of his career), but in this instance, 2005 was his worst year as a QB when you look at QB rating. He threw 29 interceptions to 20 touchdowns. AR is on pace for 32 touchdowns and 10 interceptions. Say he only gets 25 and 15: I'd still say that taking this one year to one year comparison that AR is playing better.

That secondary was ranked 5th.
There are a bunch of old threads 3irty1 covering the 2005 defense. We were ranked in the top 5 pass D's largely based on the fact that teams did not need to pass with the lead in the second half. We were very low in total pass atts faced, but very high in total run atts faced. The run defense that year was better than the pass D,m despite the yardage totals.

[KYPack]

I think there is more to look at than just phyiscal play. There have been so many blown assignments and missed calls it is pathetic. The coaching and fundamentals both mentally and physically is a huge disappointment and it is the right thing to do to blame the coaching staff, you have to be able to coach up young players and even veterans.

I am very down on this coaching staff as a whole so I am going to reserve judgement on the offensive line at this point because who really knows where the talent is, if there is any at all.

I think Tony Moll is proof that there is talent on the line. He'll never be a pro bowler, but has played relatively well in Baltimore. That is what has me down on the coaching staff. What did Baltimore see that we missed?

That guy was horribly inconsistent here, and has played consistently there in Baltimore. That HAS to be coaching. You could make a little argument that he'd rather be in Balt. than here, but if that's the case, then why?

I keep seeing this stated in various places. Tony Moll has not started a game for the Ravens. He has only been active for two games. His status there is the same as with the Pack. Emergency G & T, not very good at either position. Moll will be a career back-up and is lucky he's even got that job.

[red]

to me, i thought spitz looked good at center and sitton really looks like a keeper at RG. college is too up and down for me. i'd let him walk

clifton, even before his injury looked like he had lost it, he's become a liability at LT.

tauscher, who knows. he looked good in the two quarters he played before screwing up his knee again.

barbre sucks, lang is an unknown (might be a better option at Lt now)

wells is too small to be a good center, he's too easy to move

the rest can go

yes, we need a complete overhaul

and a new line coach wouldn't help

[3irty1]

From a rebuilding argument you can't take injuries into account. You've got to go with the talent the team was given in the beginning of the season. Also I think you've got to compare 3-4 DE's to 4-3 DT's and 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLBs.

You look at how we now have Woodson instead of Carroll and laugh but the 2005 secondary was excellent. Harris's best year IMO. KGB while not fully suck and Kampman in his prime is more pass rush than we have now. We're certainly better off against the run now.

On offense we're worse on the line certainly as we've not been able to replace our old pro-bowl tackles who are starting to break down. Despite DD getting older and no longer having Walker I'd say were better at WR although not by much. We're much better at TE. We're about the same at RB. And if you assume that Brett Favre was at least as good then as he is now we were better at QB although I don't believe this.

I'd take 2009 Favre over 2005 Favre. They are two different players. Partial makes a good point IMO. Some very important areas of the team have dropped off. The 2005 line was good enough to make Samkon Gado a star. Weird to think about now. Also we have a worse pass rush.

There was no way the 2005 secondary was excellent with Grabby McFlag aka Ahmad Carroll starting back there. I happen to think Al Harris has gotten better since then.

I agree that the 2005 pass rush was better.

In general, I think BF is better (as he's proven over the course of his career), but in this instance, 2005 was his worst year as a QB when you look at QB rating. He threw 29 interceptions to 20 touchdowns. AR is on pace for 32 touchdowns and 10 interceptions. Say he only gets 25 and 15: I'd still say that taking this one year to one year comparison that AR is playing better.

That secondary was ranked 5th.
There are a bunch of old threads 3irty1 covering the 2005 defense. We were ranked in the top 5 pass D's largely based on the fact that teams did not need to pass with the lead in the second half. We were very low in total pass atts faced, but very high in total run atts faced. The run defense that year was better than the pass D,m despite the yardage totals.

Their rank may be sugar coated but its not made of sugar. It was a pretty good pass defense. Ever since KGB deteriorated this team has needed an off-the-edge pass rusher.

[KYPack]

to me, i thought spitz looked good at center and sitton really looks like a keeper at RG. college is too up and down for me. i'd let him walk

clifton, even before his injury looked like he had lost it, he's become a liability at LT.

tauscher, who knows. he looked good in the two quarters he played before screwing up his knee again.

barbre sucks, lang is an unknown (might be a better option at Lt now)

wells is too small to be a good center, he's too easy to move

the rest can go

yes, we need a complete overhaul

and a new line coach wouldn't help

I'm pretty sure this team has me beyond being surprised, but...

Early in the week, JSO said they may work Lang in at LG because of all Colledge's problems. All week in practice, Lang has been working with the 1's at - Right Tackle!

What is it, is this kid the new Forrest Gregg or something?
Our line is so shot to shit, we have to move a young kid around to stabilize things?

If these moves straighten out this OL, OK

These look like desperation moves by a team headed right down the crapper.

I'm more bummed out at this team than the '05 bunch. We knew we had stiff bunch on the OLine that season, these guys were supposed to be coming into their own.

It looks bleaker and bleaker every week, fer crissakes.

[hoosier]

Early in the week, JSO said they may work Lang in at LG because of all Colledge's problems. All week in practice, Lang has been working with the 1's at - Right Tackle!

What is it, is this kid the new Forrest Gregg or something?
Our line is so shot to shit, we have to move a young kid around to stabilize things?

If these moves straighten out this OL, OK

These look like desperation moves by a team headed right down the crapper.

I'm more bummed out at this team than the '05 bunch. We knew we had stiff bunch on the OLine that season, these guys were supposed to be coming into their own.

It looks bleaker and bleaker every week, fer crissakes.

I sense a common theme here. Tony Moll was a Packer from 2006-08, was he not?

2005 was bleak because it was pre Tony Moll.

2009 is down the crapper because it is post Tony Moll.

[Patler]

I'm pretty sure this team has me beyond being surprised, but...

Early in the week, JSO said they may work Lang in at LG because of all Colledge's problems. All week in practice, Lang has been working with the 1's at - Right Tackle!

What is it, is this kid the new Forrest Gregg or something?
Our line is so shot to shit, we have to move a young kid around to stabilize things?

If these moves straighten out this OL, OK

These look like desperation moves by a team headed right down the crapper.

I'm more bummed out at this team than the '05 bunch. We knew we had stiff bunch on the OLine that season, these guys were supposed to be coming into their own.

It looks bleaker and bleaker every week, fer crissakes.

Neither Tauscher or Barbre practiced early in the week. Tauscher with the knee, Barbre was limited with a concussion that apparently happened right toward the end of the game.

[pbmax]

Their rank may be sugar coated but its not made of sugar. It was a pretty good pass defense. Ever since KGB deteriorated this team has needed an off-the-edge pass rusher.
Its hard to fathom by looking at the raw number totals, but that pass defense was bad. The run defense was surprisingly good compared to the raw yardage. Look at Waldo's numbers on the previous page. Overall the defense was a notch below mediocre, which was a step up from abysmal the year before.

If you wish to look back, I suggest looking at the yards per carry number and then look at the opposing QB ranking from that year. Fox Sports; stast page will let you look at Team Defense and see the opposing QB rating.

There are some good threads on this site covering that aspect of the defense from the 06 offseason as well.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I think there is more to look at than just phyiscal play. There have been so many blown assignments and missed calls it is pathetic. The coaching and fundamentals both mentally and physically is a huge disappointment and it is the right thing to do to blame the coaching staff, you have to be able to coach up young players and even veterans.

I am very down on this coaching staff as a whole so I am going to reserve judgement on the offensive line at this point because who really knows where the talent is, if there is any at all.

I think Tony Moll is proof that there is talent on the line. He'll never be a pro bowler, but has played relatively well in Baltimore. That is what has me down on the coaching staff. What did Baltimore see that we missed?

That guy was horribly inconsistent here, and has played consistently there in Baltimore. That HAS to be coaching. You could make a little argument that he'd rather be in Balt. than here, but if that's the case, then why?

I keep seeing this stated in various places. Tony Moll has not started a game for the Ravens. He has only been active for two games. His status there is the same as with the Pack. Emergency G & T, not very good at either position. Moll will be a career back-up and is lucky he's even got that job.

Are you challenging Retail's observations?

Ty is still waiting for RG to respond to the fact that he was BUSTED.

Moll inactive for all but 3 games.

[KYPack]

I think there is more to look at than just phyiscal play. There have been so many blown assignments and missed calls it is pathetic. The coaching and fundamentals both mentally and physically is a huge disappointment and it is the right thing to do to blame the coaching staff, you have to be able to coach up young players and even veterans.

I am very down on this coaching staff as a whole so I am going to reserve judgement on the offensive line at this point because who really knows where the talent is, if there is any at all.

I think Tony Moll is proof that there is talent on the line. He'll never be a pro bowler, but has played relatively well in Baltimore. That is what has me down on the coaching staff. What did Baltimore see that we missed?

That guy was horribly inconsistent here, and has played consistently there in Baltimore. That HAS to be coaching. You could make a little argument that he'd rather be in Balt. than here, but if that's the case, then why?

I keep seeing this stated in various places. Tony Moll has not started a game for the Ravens. He has only been active for two games. His status there is the same as with the Pack. Emergency G & T, not very good at either position. Moll will be a career back-up and is lucky he's even got that job.

Are you challenging Retail's observations?

Ty is still waiting for RG to respond to the fact that he was BUSTED.

Moll inactive for all but 3 games.

RG could bust me back. The Ravens website says Moll started vs the Bengals. I missed that and I was there! I think that was in error. He wasn't announced as the starter. He played I guess, but the only time I saw him, he was on the sidelines. Not many Raven OLineman will brag about that game. The Bengals whipped the dog shit out of the Raven Oline and they were lucky to get one score.

I read some crap on the net that Joe Flacco was the best QB in the NFL!?! With decent pressure, he is a pretty ordinary dude, IMHO.

He played Sunday like a guy late for work, trying to find his car keys. Very harried.

[MJZiggy]

RG could bust me back. The Ravens website says Moll started vs the Bengals. I missed that and I was there! I think that was in error. He wasn't announced as the starter. He played I guess, but the only time I saw him, he was on the sidelines. Not many Raven OLineman will brag about that game. The Bengals whipped the dog shit out of the Raven Oline and they were lucky to get one score.



You were there? Wait, the second game. Never mind.

[pbmax]

RG could bust me back. The Ravens website says Moll started vs the Bengals. I missed that and I was there! I think that was in error. He wasn't announced as the starter. He played I guess, but the only time I saw him, he was on the sidelines. Not many Raven OLineman will brag about that game. The Bengals whipped the dog shit out of the Raven Oline and they were lucky to get one score.

I read some crap on the net that Joe Flacco was the best QB in the NFL!?! With decent pressure, he is a pretty ordinary dude, IMHO.

He played Sunday like a guy late for work, trying to find his car keys. Very harried.
I think he was announced in the papers as a starter one week, but someone must have gotten healthy in a hurry. NFL.com has him playing in 2 games but no starts. In a blow to my third favorite website, profootballreference.com doesn't even have him on the roster. I am guessing other than games played, he has no statistical trace. That might not be all bad for a lineman. :)

[3irty1]

[quote=3irty1]Their rank may be sugar coated but its not made of sugar. It was a pretty good pass defense. Ever since KGB deteriorated this team has needed an off-the-edge pass rusher.
Its hard to fathom by looking at the raw number totals, but that pass defense was bad. The run defense was surprisingly good compared to the raw yardage. Look at Waldo's numbers on the previous page. Overall the defense was a notch below mediocre, which was a step up from abysmal the year before.

If you wish to look back, I suggest looking at the yards per carry number and then look at the opposing QB ranking from that year. Fox Sports; stast page will let you look at Team Defense and see the opposing QB rating.

There are some good threads on this site covering that aspect of the defense from the 06 offseason as well.[/quote

On I remember. This was the season when we lost by 45 to Kyle Boller. I take it back you guys are right. The secondary sucked. Al Harris ruled though.

Looking back at the box scores there was some pretty low scoring games though.

[retailguy]

I think there is more to look at than just phyiscal play. There have been so many blown assignments and missed calls it is pathetic. The coaching and fundamentals both mentally and physically is a huge disappointment and it is the right thing to do to blame the coaching staff, you have to be able to coach up young players and even veterans.

I am very down on this coaching staff as a whole so I am going to reserve judgement on the offensive line at this point because who really knows where the talent is, if there is any at all.

I think Tony Moll is proof that there is talent on the line. He'll never be a pro bowler, but has played relatively well in Baltimore. That is what has me down on the coaching staff. What did Baltimore see that we missed?

That guy was horribly inconsistent here, and has played consistently there in Baltimore. That HAS to be coaching. You could make a little argument that he'd rather be in Balt. than here, but if that's the case, then why?

I keep seeing this stated in various places. Tony Moll has not started a game for the Ravens. He has only been active for two games. His status there is the same as with the Pack. Emergency G & T, not very good at either position. Moll will be a career back-up and is lucky he's even got that job.

Are you challenging Retail's observations?

Ty is still waiting for RG to respond to the fact that he was BUSTED.

Moll inactive for all but 3 games.

RG could bust me back. The Ravens website says Moll started vs the Bengals. I missed that and I was there! I think that was in error. He wasn't announced as the starter. He played I guess, but the only time I saw him, he was on the sidelines. Not many Raven OLineman will brag about that game. The Bengals whipped the dog shit out of the Raven Oline and they were lucky to get one score.

I read some crap on the net that Joe Flacco was the best QB in the NFL!?! With decent pressure, he is a pretty ordinary dude, IMHO.

He played Sunday like a guy late for work, trying to find his car keys. Very harried.

Well, I watched the Baltimore/Cincy game, and he played and played relatively well. He's also playing some special teams stuff. If you don't focus on taking my quote out of context, as some here do, all too often, you'd see that acknowledged that he won't ever be special. However, compared to Allen Barbre, Moll looks like Willie Anderson.

Ty - I didn't see your smart alec reply, but I probably wouldn't have responded to it anyhow.

Here's what the Ravens website had to say about his play:


2009 (with Baltimore): Started at RT and helped protect QB Joe Flacco, allowing him to complete 18 passes for 195 yards, a 10.8 avg. against the Bengals.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/Players/Active/Tony_Moll.aspx
(under pro career)

I'll take Ravens.com opinions over yours, Ty. KY, I'd never bust your ass. I respect your opinions.

[pbmax]

Well, something strange has happened to Tony Moll this season. No one seems to have a clear idea what he is up to.

The NFL Gamebook for Nov. 8, Balt @ Cincy has Moll inactive.

Gamebook from Oct. 11, Cincy @ Balt has Moll active and substituting at Guard. Did not start though.

[KYPack]

Well, something strange has happened to Tony Moll this season. No one seems to have a clear idea what he is up to.

The NFL Gamebook for Nov. 8, Balt @ Cincy has Moll inactive.

Gamebook from Oct. 11, Cincy @ Balt has Moll active and substituting at Guard. Did not start though.

Oher was the starting RT and played most of the snaps. I saw Tony suited up, but he was on the sidelines when Balt had the ball. He may have got some PT, but he was no factor or anything.

I wanted to bring this up & may go into it more. Lemme tell ya where the Bengals have the Packers ass whipped. OLine coach. Paul Alexander has put together a big, tall, tough NFL Oline in a couple years. The line from their success in '05 & '06 is all gone.

The Bengals went out on the NFL scrap heap and got guys from the Vikings, Philly, and Carolina, street free agents and have a solid group. They run zone AND power gap for the run game. Their pass pro technique is impeccable and Carson Palmer has a solid platform from which to make his throws. The Pack's Oline is smaller, has poorer technique, and collapses more in one game than the Bengals have all year.

There are better ways to get it done, build solid lines on both sides of the ball. I think part of our approach is flawed and it's biting us in the ass every week. The Bengals have 4 OT's that are better than anybody we have on the job. How can this be?

[pbmax]

There are better ways to get it done, build solid lines on both sides of the ball. I think part of our approach is flawed and it's biting us in the ass every week. The Bengals have 4 OT's that are better than anybody we have on the job. How can this be?
Its like everything else on this team, two problems that on their own you could overcome, but together they fail at a high enough rate to kill you.

Smaller line probably needs to execute more cleanly than a larger group and, as you say, our technique is poor. If they were bigger or stronger and had the same technique, at least they would be a larger impediment to the pass rush.

Perhaps its the wrong players and the wrong coach. Both are NFL ready, but not for each other. If this isn't it, I am switching to soccer.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I think there is more to look at than just phyiscal play. There have been so many blown assignments and missed calls it is pathetic. The coaching and fundamentals both mentally and physically is a huge disappointment and it is the right thing to do to blame the coaching staff, you have to be able to coach up young players and even veterans.

I am very down on this coaching staff as a whole so I am going to reserve judgement on the offensive line at this point because who really knows where the talent is, if there is any at all.

I think Tony Moll is proof that there is talent on the line. He'll never be a pro bowler, but has played relatively well in Baltimore. That is what has me down on the coaching staff. What did Baltimore see that we missed?

That guy was horribly inconsistent here, and has played consistently there in Baltimore. That HAS to be coaching. You could make a little argument that he'd rather be in Balt. than here, but if that's the case, then why?

I keep seeing this stated in various places. Tony Moll has not started a game for the Ravens. He has only been active for two games. His status there is the same as with the Pack. Emergency G & T, not very good at either position. Moll will be a career back-up and is lucky he's even got that job.

Are you challenging Retail's observations?

Ty is still waiting for RG to respond to the fact that he was BUSTED.

Moll inactive for all but 3 games.

RG could bust me back. The Ravens website says Moll started vs the Bengals. I missed that and I was there! I think that was in error. He wasn't announced as the starter. He played I guess, but the only time I saw him, he was on the sidelines. Not many Raven OLineman will brag about that game. The Bengals whipped the dog shit out of the Raven Oline and they were lucky to get one score.

I read some crap on the net that Joe Flacco was the best QB in the NFL!?! With decent pressure, he is a pretty ordinary dude, IMHO.

He played Sunday like a guy late for work, trying to find his car keys. Very harried.

Well, I watched the Baltimore/Cincy game, and he played and played relatively well. He's also playing some special teams stuff. If you don't focus on taking my quote out of context, as some here do, all too often, you'd see that acknowledged that he won't ever be special. However, compared to Allen Barbre, Moll looks like Willie Anderson.

Ty - I didn't see your smart alec reply, but I probably wouldn't have responded to it anyhow.

Here's what the Ravens website had to say about his play:


2009 (with Baltimore): Started at RT and helped protect QB Joe Flacco, allowing him to complete 18 passes for 195 yards, a 10.8 avg. against the Bengals.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/Players/Active/Tony_Moll.aspx
(under pro career)

I'll take Ravens.com opinions over yours, Ty. KY, I'd never bust your ass. I respect your opinions.

What opinion of the Ravens are you taking?

Ty said that you were full of shit, which you are. The ravens site, the one you posted said he has played in 2 games. FACT.

You said he has played relatively well and consistently. :lol: :lol:

If Moll played 2 games so far from us you wouldn't say he had played relatively well and consistently if he had played 2 games.

Moll has been inactive. FACT.

Folks, notice that he grabbed one section of the Raven's website. How about the rest?

9 (with Baltimore): Started at RT and helped protect QB Joe Flacco, allowing him to complete 18 passes for 195 yards, a 10.8 avg. against the Bengals.

Game 7 vs. Den. (11/1): Was a game-day inactive in the 30-7 victory. FAIL

Game 6 at Min. (10/18): Played on special teams against the Vikings. FAIL

Game 5 vs. Cin. (10/11): Saw his 1st action as a Raven, playing on special teams against the Bengals. FAIL

Game 4 at NE (10/4): Was a game-day inactive against the Patriots. FAIL

Game 3 vs. Cle. (9/27): Was a game-day inactive in the 34-3 victory.FAIL

Game 2 at SD (9/20): Was a game-day inactive in the 31-26 win. FAIL

Game 1 vs. KC (9/13): Was a game-day inactive in the 38-24 win. FAIL

You have been show be a blowhard with your usual agenda. Yes, let's take the Raven's opinion over KY and YOURS. According to them, he has played 1 game on the line...yet, according to you, relatively well and consistently. LOL

Feel free to counter, but you wont' respond because you are a coward and no you are wrong. Let's see if you are man enough to come forward and say that you were wrong. Doubt it.

[Patler]

I think Tony Moll is proof that there is talent on the line. He'll never be a pro bowler, but has played relatively well in Baltimore. That is what has me down on the coaching staff. What did Baltimore see that we missed?

That guy was horribly inconsistent here, and has played consistently there in Baltimore. That HAS to be coaching. You could make a little argument that he'd rather be in Balt. than here, but if that's the case, then why?

I keep seeing this stated in various places. Tony Moll has not started a game for the Ravens. He has only been active for two games. His status there is the same as with the Pack. Emergency G & T, not very good at either position. Moll will be a career back-up and is lucky he's even got that job.

Are you challenging Retail's observations?

Ty is still waiting for RG to respond to the fact that he was BUSTED.

Moll inactive for all but 3 games.

RG could bust me back. The Ravens website says Moll started vs the Bengals. I missed that and I was there! I think that was in error. He wasn't announced as the starter. He played I guess, but the only time I saw him, he was on the sidelines. Not many Raven OLineman will brag about that game. The Bengals whipped the dog shit out of the Raven Oline and they were lucky to get one score.

I read some crap on the net that Joe Flacco was the best QB in the NFL!?! With decent pressure, he is a pretty ordinary dude, IMHO.

He played Sunday like a guy late for work, trying to find his car keys. Very harried.

Well, I watched the Baltimore/Cincy game, and he played and played relatively well. He's also playing some special teams stuff. If you don't focus on taking my quote out of context, as some here do, all too often, you'd see that acknowledged that he won't ever be special. However, compared to Allen Barbre, Moll looks like Willie Anderson.

Ty - I didn't see your smart alec reply, but I probably wouldn't have responded to it anyhow.

Here's what the Ravens website had to say about his play:


2009 (with Baltimore): Started at RT and helped protect QB Joe Flacco, allowing him to complete 18 passes for 195 yards, a 10.8 avg. against the Bengals.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/Players/Active/Tony_Moll.aspx
(under pro career)

I'll take Ravens.com opinions over yours, Ty. KY, I'd never bust your ass. I respect your opinions.

The comment on the Ravens website is odd, because the NFL's gamebook does not identify him as a starter in that game. I've known the gamebook to accurately identify opening lineups when the team comes out with two TE's, or multiple WRs. It would be surprising if they missed a starting O-lineman, but I suppose it could have.

Moll was active for two games when they had injuries and had moved Oher from RT to LT. In the two games since, Moll has been inactive again. In that regard, his roster status is even lower than when he was in GB, where he was a game day active player most of the time, except when injured.

Moll seems destined for a career as the 8th or 9th O-lineman, backing up at guard and RT. He will probably be one of those guys who bounces from team to team every couple years, landing wherever a very thin O-line roster exists.

[Fritz]

I'm with KY here. I'm as disappointed in this team as any I've watched in Green Bay, except maybe the post-Super Bowl team of the 90's when it lost to Denver.

This offensive line was supposed to come into its own this year. They're not guys that need a year in the weight room any more, or guys that are still learning the nuances. Outside of Sitton, the nominal beginning of year starters - Clifton, Colledge, Spitz, and Barbre - have a few years under their belts.

Yet it is a rookie who is grading out as the best lineman?

No more time to give. Whether it's coaching or lack of talent or both, I don't know. But they show zero signs of getting better, unless you count Barbe going from god-awful to less than average.

My hope - and that's all I got right now - is that Lang stabilizes the right tackle situation, Colledge gets his ass in gear, and Clifton and Wells don't get hurt. Sitton I guess is playing okay.

But look at the 4th quarter of the Tampa game and both Minny games. The opposing QB's had a wall in front of them and knew exactly where the defensive linemen were. Rodgers is in a damn war zone all the time.

[retailguy]

The comment on the Ravens website is odd, because the NFL's gamebook does not identify him as a starter in that game. I've known the gamebook to accurately identify opening lineups when the team comes out with two TE's, or multiple WRs. It would be surprising if they missed a starting O-lineman, but I suppose it could have.

Moll was active for two games when they had injuries and had moved Oher from RT to LT. In the two games since, Moll has been inactive again. In that regard, his roster status is even lower than when he was in GB, where he was a game day active player most of the time, except when injured.

Moll seems destined for a career as the 8th or 9th O-lineman, backing up at guard and RT. He will probably be one of those guys who bounces from team to team every couple years, landing wherever a very thin O-line roster exists.

Patler, I don't know if he's "that" bad, but clearly he'll never be anything special. However, I maintain that today, he's better than Barbre by a healthy margin. My musing was really focused on our coaches. What, if anything, has Baltimore done with him that we haven't? I'm not sure, but something seems to be wrong.

Ty, you've got my stuff so far out of context I'm not responding. Go back to what I originally said. I said he's played more consistently this year, that's true. He was horribly inconsistent last year and during his time in GB. The amount of time he's played is irrelevant, I was focused on what he's done while he did play. It, in my opinion has been better than his play in GB, which was awful.

[Scott Campbell]

I'll agree with those who have said this year has been a massive disappointment thus far. The O-line play is beyond horrific, and both the coaching staff and the front office knew that steps were needed to improve that group. They're actually playing even worse.

[Pugger]

From a rebuilding argument you can't take injuries into account. You've got to go with the talent the team was given in the beginning of the season. Also I think you've got to compare 3-4 DE's to 4-3 DT's and 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLBs.

You look at how we now have Woodson instead of Carroll and laugh but the 2005 secondary was excellent. Harris's best year IMO. KGB while not fully suck and Kampman in his prime is more pass rush than we have now. We're certainly better off against the run now.

On offense we're worse on the line certainly as we've not been able to replace our old pro-bowl tackles who are starting to break down. Despite DD getting older and no longer having Walker I'd say were better at WR although not by much. We're much better at TE. We're about the same at RB. And if you assume that Brett Favre was at least as good then as he is now we were better at QB although I don't believe this.

I'd take 2009 Favre over 2005 Favre. They are two different players. Partial makes a good point IMO. Some very important areas of the team have dropped off. The 2005 line was good enough to make Samkon Gado a star. Weird to think about now. Also we have a worse pass rush.

There was no way the 2005 secondary was excellent with Grabby McFlag aka Ahmad Carroll starting back there. I happen to think Al Harris has gotten better since then.

I agree that the 2005 pass rush was better.

In general, I think BF is better (as he's proven over the course of his career), but in this instance, 2005 was his worst year as a QB when you look at QB rating. He threw 29 interceptions to 20 touchdowns. AR is on pace for 32 touchdowns and 10 interceptions. Say he only gets 25 and 15: I'd still say that taking this one year to one year comparison that AR is playing better.

:lol: :lol:

[Pugger]

But the big question is are the guys on our line as awful as they appear or are they stinking out the joint because of crappy coaching? I'm leaning towards the latter...

[pbmax]

Colledge is the poster child of the line this year. Clifton and Spitz have injuries and uneven play is not surprising during recovery. Barbre is a first year starter, so while no one expected a turnstile, struggling is not a surprise. I am not yet convinced that Barbre isn't salvageable given that he is having trouble in one specific area.

But at the end of 2008 Colledge seemed to have fully developed into a true NFL Guard and the best lineman on the team. This year he has been as uneven as Barbre. He must perform if this line will be able to accomplish anything. No one knew Justin Tuck was in the game on pass downs versus the Giants in 2007. Colledge was blocking him successfully (Favre's quick reads had something to do with this). Colledge can move Pat Williams out of a hole. Its time to earn a paycheck every week Daryn.

[denverYooper]

Colledge is the poster child of the line this year. Clifton and Spitz have injuries and uneven play is not surprising during recovery. Barbre is a first year starter, so while no one expected a turnstile, struggling is not a surprise. I am not yet convinced that Barbre isn't salvageable given that he is having trouble in one specific area.

But at the end of 2008 Colledge seemed to have fully developed into a true NFL Guard and the best lineman on the team. This year he has been as uneven as Barbre. He must perform if this line will be able to accomplish anything. No one knew Justin Tuck was in the game on pass downs versus the Giants in 2007. Colledge was blocking him successfully (Favre's quick reads had something to do with this). Colledge can move Pat Williams out of a hole. Its time to earn a paycheck every week Daryn.

How much has the Left Tackle experiment affected Colledge? It seemed to me that he was doing pretty well until that point.

The other thing that I wonder about with Daryn is how much the personnel changing around him affects his game. I think that he plays better as the season progresses because he knows where his help is and knows what to expect from the guys around him. Lately, he's had a rookie (Lang) and a better but hobbled Clifton to his left. Some of his current problems should go away if the guys next to him stay constant.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

The comment on the Ravens website is odd, because the NFL's gamebook does not identify him as a starter in that game. I've known the gamebook to accurately identify opening lineups when the team comes out with two TE's, or multiple WRs. It would be surprising if they missed a starting O-lineman, but I suppose it could have.

Moll was active for two games when they had injuries and had moved Oher from RT to LT. In the two games since, Moll has been inactive again. In that regard, his roster status is even lower than when he was in GB, where he was a game day active player most of the time, except when injured.

Moll seems destined for a career as the 8th or 9th O-lineman, backing up at guard and RT. He will probably be one of those guys who bounces from team to team every couple years, landing wherever a very thin O-line roster exists.

Patler, I don't know if he's "that" bad, but clearly he'll never be anything special. However, I maintain that today, he's better than Barbre by a healthy margin. My musing was really focused on our coaches. What, if anything, has Baltimore done with him that we haven't? I'm not sure, but something seems to be wrong.

Ty, you've got my stuff so far out of context I'm not responding. Go back to what I originally said. I said he's played more consistently this year, that's true. He was horribly inconsistent last year and during his time in GB. The amount of time he's played is irrelevant, I was focused on what he's done while he did play. It, in my opinion has been better than his play in GB, which was awful.

Sure i do. You said he was playing relatively well and consistently.

How would you be judging consistency? By one game on the line. No one can judge consistency by one game. Or, are you suggesting that you have the skill to look at that one game and watched every play, determined his level of play and then compared it with how he played here? LOL

Like Ty said, you are flat out busted. And, like Ty also said, you wouldn't be man enough to admit it.

[SnakeLH2006]

I don't know if he's "that" bad, but clearly he'll never be anything special.

Who...Moll, Colledge, Barbre? LOL.

Here's a fun drinking game with 2 other buddies:

1) Throw their names in a hat.
2) Pick one.
3) Drink when Moll holds someone.
4) Drink when Colledge gets bull-rushed on his back.
5) Drink when Barbre gets whipped around the edge.
6) It doesn't matter. They all fail as dependable NFL starters.
7) At least you get drunk by halftime.