Arod is a Loser. Stats Do Not Lie.

[SnakeLH2006]

So what stat did Snake da Great pick up in the TB debacle:

This one. NFL teams score TD's on 22% of offensive drives. When giving up a sack they score a TD on that drive 5% of the time.

The Packers (this season) scored a TD on 37% of offensive drives (that's great!)...and until Arod ran it in they were 0% on TD's (when giving up a sack) till Arod ran it in that drive. Now at 1.5% after the game.

What does that say.....Well we put up yards/stats...but when sacked (half of those on Arod for holding the ball) we don't score....Even better they kept showing how loooooooooooonggggggg he holds the ball. Over half those sacks were on Arod not throwing it out of bounds for 2nd and 10 vs. 2nd and 19.

Snake has been saying it all year, but some seemed to think it's not possible ARod is to blame for the O woes with the sacks.

Yeah, that OL is shitty, but Arod just bastardizes so many drives holding the ball. Stats show that you can't run around for 4-7 seconds vs. NFL Defenses and not get sacked.

He's made his share of big plays....really good when he can pass. But that OL is shitty as my grandma's memory...aka really suspect. But toss it out of bounds then...and eschew your fake ass (stellar) QB rating.

That the guy kills drives (the TD/sack ratio and the huge times he hangs onto the ball) is proven.

Snake must state...ARod is a top ten QB talent wise....but his pocket savvy and release is really poor.....sad when a 40 year old can make the short dump off and avoid pressure at will, yet the 25 year old gets his ass beat in weekly and gets good stats (yet the team stats now show otherwise).

This is why (and I don't blame ARod so much as I blame MM for being a pussy-ass and not cracking down like Holmy did on Brett when he was young to dump it off or throw it out of bounds) we are losing games. Yep.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

NFL offenses score ZERO percent on drives when they are intercepted.

Without determining how many field goals and where the drives left us, your stat is meaningless.

[Partial]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.

[Scott Campbell]

For all the points they left on the table against TB, they still scored 28 and staked the team to an 11 point 4th quarter lead - more than enough to win with. Yeah, it was a bad game for Rodgers. But we all learned a long time ago to put up with the periodic stinker from our QB.

[retailguy]

snake, understand your point, but I believe you're wrong. Fix the OL, you'll fix Rodgers. He's running scared back there. Yes, it is that simple. He needs protection he can rely on. He's starting his SECOND year after all.

[Waldo]

He can get better at this. As he gets more confident in his play, he needs to have someone continuing to crack the whip to keep him on his toes with getting the ball away. He was better last year, which indicates to me that he was out of his comfort zone, holding the ball is in his comfort zone. That still needs hard coaching.

I think though (as FO points out), we really have a negative feedback situation going.

We get sacked a lot and give up a lot of penalties. We have a lot of drives that go backwards or go nowhere. Our punter doesn't have a big leg and our punt coverage sucks. Our defense is typically soft for the first 5 yards, in order to protect the big play and the sticks (which it is doing a good job of). Our punt return game isn't very good.

So we get this feedback loop where a 6 yard sack can in the end lead to a 20-30 yard loss in field position, even if the defense forces a 3 and out, if we fail to convert on 3rd.

Reverse the situation and have a big leg punter, reliable punt coverage, and a good return game, and the sacks don't nearly have the same negative effect on us.

[CaliforniaCheez]

He has lasted 8 games so far. I hope he is able to keep playing until the end of the season whenever that may be.

[Tony Oday]

Trade the O line for a blocking sled...then at least AR has a chance.

[red]

i don't know, i keep hearing a-rod is holding onto the ball to long. 2-3 seconds after he gets the snap he's sacked and he held the ball too long. on top of thathe gets pressured almost every time, he usually has to step up or move on almost every throw to avoid the sack.

people say he just needs to get rid of it. most of the time he can't. the pocket collapses way to quick. almost all his sack have been in to pocket, and in order to throw the ball out of bounds he would have to wind up and give it a heave over a wr's head. tough to do when you're running for your life. this isn't madden where you just hit a button quick and it happens

now on the other side, i've watched a lot of other teams this year and it's sickening. other qb's have 5 or 6 seconds to throw the ball with no pressure, only every once in awhile does the qb get pressured and has to make a quick decision, not every single play like a-rod has had this year

i'd like to see some numbers on average sack time, comparing a-rod to every other qb. i would guess a-rod has less time to react then every other qb

[pbmax]

i don't know, i keep hearing a-rod is holding onto the ball to long. 2-3 seconds after he gets the snap he's sacked and he held the ball too long. on top of thathe gets pressured almost every time, he usually has to step up or move on almost every throw to avoid the sack.

people say he just needs to get rid of it. most of the time he can't. the pocket collapses way to quick. almost all his sack have been in to pocket, and in order to throw the ball out of bounds he would have to wind up and give it a heave over a wr's head. tough to do when you're running for your life. this isn't madden where you just hit a button quick and it happens

now on the other side, i've watched a lot of other teams this year and it's sickening. other qb's have 5 or 6 seconds to throw the ball with no pressure, only every once in awhile does the qb get pressured and has to make a quick decision, not every single play like a-rod has had this year

i'd like to see some numbers on average sack time, comparing a-rod to every other qb. i would guess a-rod has less time to react then every other qb
If just one of these circumstances was occurring, then it would be unremarkable. Plenty of QBs hold the ball longer than they should. Including a young Brett Favre. But you add in shoddy protection and the situation quickly gets ridiculous. Bedard has all of the hits broken down as of two weeks ago in the JSO blog. The State Journal has an graphic that tracks all of the sacks by line position.

Few QBs are big enough like Roethlisberger to survive constant hits in the pocket.

[denverYooper]

i'd like to see some numbers on average sack time, comparing a-rod to every other qb. i would guess a-rod has less time to react then every other qb

It'd also be interesting to see how many guys are kept in to protect also. It seems like he occasionally gets a lot of time to throw, and Fox has been putting a clock on him lately, but how often are they in max protect when he actually has time and how often does he only have 2 receivers out getting doubled?

So, like: t/p
or t/r
where t = time to throw and p = # in to protect or r = receivers.

That said, there's no doubt that Rodgers needs to learn the art of throwing the ball away.

[rbaloha1]

A-rod's superb fantasy stats mean nothing until winning meaningful games starting with the Cowboys.

[rbaloha1]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.

Premature at this stage. Although Flynn reminds of Hasselbeck.

[Tony Oday]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.

Premature at this stage. Although Flynn reminds of Hasselbeck.

an injured middle of the road QB that never won a thing?

Arod is a solid to good QB now and with some protection could be great.

[pbmax]

Rodgers release times versus Vikings: Bedard chart.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:QIC9qBN7NqEJ:www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/64396032.html+bedard+chart+release+time+site:jsonl ine.com&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Madison.com sack tracker

http://host.madison.com/app/interactive/sacktracker/

[Smidgeon]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.

Premature at this stage. Although Flynn reminds of Hasselbeck.

an injured middle of the road QB that never won a thing?

Trade bait for a draft pick.

[pbmax]

A-rod's superb fantasy stats mean nothing until winning meaningful games starting with the Cowboys.
Please tell us which QB with terrible stats you would prefer?

[pbmax]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.
Until you change your mind in three weeks that he is playing better. Then you will be saying all along that he had greatness in him.

[Smidgeon]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.
Until you change your mind in three weeks that he is playing better. Then you will be saying all along that he had greatness in him.

Or until Flynn starts playing (for whatever reason) and sucks it up hardcore.

[Partial]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.
Until you change your mind in three weeks that he is playing better. Then you will be saying all along that he had greatness in him.

Or until Flynn starts playing (for whatever reason) and sucks it up hardcore.

ARod is playing decent, not great, but decent. He'd be playing well if he held the ball for less time.

I'm not an ARod hater.

True statement about Flynn. We have no idea how he turns out but I have a hunch and a hope he's a stud.

[pbmax]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.
Until you change your mind in three weeks that he is playing better. Then you will be saying all along that he had greatness in him.

Or until Flynn starts playing (for whatever reason) and sucks it up hardcore.

ARod is playing decent, not great, but decent. He'd be playing well if he held the ball for less time.

I'm not an ARod hater.

True statement about Flynn. We have no idea how he turns out but I have a hunch and a hope he's a stud.
So it is your contention that we should trade the starter on a hunch that the backup is better?

[Smidgeon]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.
Until you change your mind in three weeks that he is playing better. Then you will be saying all along that he had greatness in him.

Or until Flynn starts playing (for whatever reason) and sucks it up hardcore.

ARod is playing decent, not great, but decent. He'd be playing well if he held the ball for less time.

I'm not an ARod hater.

True statement about Flynn. We have no idea how he turns out but I have a hunch and a hope he's a stud.
So it is your contention that we should trade the starter on a hunch that the backup is better?

I just hope Flynn is good enough to get good trade value.

[Partial]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.
Until you change your mind in three weeks that he is playing better. Then you will be saying all along that he had greatness in him.

Or until Flynn starts playing (for whatever reason) and sucks it up hardcore.

ARod is playing decent, not great, but decent. He'd be playing well if he held the ball for less time.

I'm not an ARod hater.

True statement about Flynn. We have no idea how he turns out but I have a hunch and a hope he's a stud.
So it is your contention that we should trade the starter on a hunch that the backup is better?

I was making a joke bro.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.
Until you change your mind in three weeks that he is playing better. Then you will be saying all along that he had greatness in him.

Or until Flynn starts playing (for whatever reason) and sucks it up hardcore.

ARod is playing decent, not great, but decent. He'd be playing well if he held the ball for less time.

I'm not an ARod hater.

True statement about Flynn. We have no idea how he turns out but I have a hunch and a hope he's a stud.
So it is your contention that we should trade the starter on a hunch that the backup is better?

I was making a joke bro.

No you weren't. You've stated before that we should trade ARod to a "sucker".

[Scott Campbell]

A-rod's superb fantasy stats mean nothing until winning meaningful games starting with the Cowboys.


The opener against our rival was a meaningful game.

[Partial]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.
Until you change your mind in three weeks that he is playing better. Then you will be saying all along that he had greatness in him.

Or until Flynn starts playing (for whatever reason) and sucks it up hardcore.

ARod is playing decent, not great, but decent. He'd be playing well if he held the ball for less time.

I'm not an ARod hater.

True statement about Flynn. We have no idea how he turns out but I have a hunch and a hope he's a stud.
So it is your contention that we should trade the starter on a hunch that the backup is better?

I was making a joke bro.

No you weren't. You've stated before that we should trade ARod to a "sucker".

Source?

[denverYooper]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.
Until you change your mind in three weeks that he is playing better. Then you will be saying all along that he had greatness in him.

Or until Flynn starts playing (for whatever reason) and sucks it up hardcore.

ARod is playing decent, not great, but decent. He'd be playing well if he held the ball for less time.

I'm not an ARod hater.

True statement about Flynn. We have no idea how he turns out but I have a hunch and a hope he's a stud.
So it is your contention that we should trade the starter on a hunch that the backup is better?

I was making a joke bro.

No you weren't. You've stated before that we should trade ARod to a "sucker".

It's all clear to me now. Think Andy Kaufman.

[SkinBasket]

It's all clear to me now. Think Andy Kaufman.

Except Partial expects us all to know when his absurdity is real or feigned.

[Scott Campbell]

It's all clear to me now. Think Andy Kaufman.

Except Partial expects us all to know when his absurdity is real or feigned.



Who would like to play the role of Jerry Lawler? Anyone?

[sharpe1027]

No you weren't. You've stated before that we should trade ARod to a "sucker".

Source?

Some poster named Partial was the source. I clearly remember reading it.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.
Until you change your mind in three weeks that he is playing better. Then you will be saying all along that he had greatness in him.

Or until Flynn starts playing (for whatever reason) and sucks it up hardcore.

ARod is playing decent, not great, but decent. He'd be playing well if he held the ball for less time.

I'm not an ARod hater.

True statement about Flynn. We have no idea how he turns out but I have a hunch and a hope he's a stud.
So it is your contention that we should trade the starter on a hunch that the backup is better?

I was making a joke bro.

No you weren't. You've stated before that we should trade ARod to a "sucker".

Source?

Try looking at your post on the previous page of this very thread.

[channtheman]

If stats don't lie wouldn't that prove that A rod is anything BUT a loser?

[Brandon494]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.

You make comments like this and you wonder why people flame you.

[Brandon494]

Each lost this season we have given up atleast 30 points, yet people still want to act like its Rodgers fault since the team decided to go with him over Favre. This is a team game, look at Brees last season. He put up great numbers last season yet his team was still under .500. Now that the Saints have a solid defense they are undefeated.

[Partial]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.
Until you change your mind in three weeks that he is playing better. Then you will be saying all along that he had greatness in him.

Or until Flynn starts playing (for whatever reason) and sucks it up hardcore.

ARod is playing decent, not great, but decent. He'd be playing well if he held the ball for less time.

I'm not an ARod hater.

True statement about Flynn. We have no idea how he turns out but I have a hunch and a hope he's a stud.
So it is your contention that we should trade the starter on a hunch that the backup is better?

I was making a joke bro.

No you weren't. You've stated before that we should trade ARod to a "sucker".

Source?

Try looking at your post on the previous page of this very thread.

Your statement is absurd. Please reread this exchange.

[sharpe1027]

Your statement is absurd. Please reread this exchange.

Just stop. Please.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Your statement is absurd. Please reread this exchange.

Just stop. Please.

He's like that knight in Monty Python that even though you cut off his arms and legs he won't admit he's beaten.

I'm done with his over the top statements and parroting what he hears on the radio and online. He's admitted to not watching games but then comes out with his "expert" opinion which is just a hodge podge of what others have said. No original thought. I'm done with the parrot.

[Fosco33]

I wish we could see the receiver's route(s) on those sacks where AR does hold it for 4-5 seconds. I was also surprised when they showed that AR has the most rushing yards for a QB (meaning he's trying to make plays - mostly).

Is it really AR trying to make a play out of nothing?

Do we have an inordinant number of slow developing plays (or very deep plays with only 1 or 2 chances/game in the 'right' scenario)?

Are the receivers doing enough to get open (or conversely, are we calling the right types of plays/protection)?

Until I see that, I'm just speculating.

As an uninformed fan/critic, I want to see more more screens, more slants, more TE curls (generally quicker, shorter plays - a la the WC offense).

I want to see max protect (RB or TE) when needed, shifting lines, designed rollouts (so AR can be outside the pocket and ditch the ball).

[sharpe1027]

Your statement is absurd. Please reread this exchange.

Just stop. Please.

He's like that knight in Monty Python that even though you cut off his arms and legs he won't admit he's beaten.

I'm done with his over the top statements and parroting what he hears on the radio and online. He's admitted to not watching games but then comes out with his "expert" opinion which is just a hodge podge of what others have said. No original thought. I'm done with the parrot.

What are you going to do? Bleed on me?

[SnakeLH2006]

Snake I've been saying this all along. I'm all for trading him (to a sucker) while his value is high and moving on into the next great era of the G&G, the Matt Flynn era.

I pray for you sometimes, Partial. Wow. Are you drunk again? Flynn? I wouldn't trade Arod unless it was 3 first rounders and we got a QB in return.

Unlike you, I do like ARod, but he's not growing up at all with holding the ball so much. Last week they showed several stats in the Tampa Bay game such as those I stated about TD% vs sacks on a drive. The Pack was abysmal in those regards. Also, they showed several clips of the previous games, and that game where ARod held the ball for as long as 7-8 seconds and took sacks. The 2-3 second sack is unavoidable, but when he's running around like a crazy man and gets dumped by 3 guys...those are the one's that are costing us field position bigtime..and has a trickle down effect on the Defense and ST.

I don't think Arod himself is a loser, but his skittish ball-holding has cost us some games, that making the team a loser (10-14) thus far under his regime. If he could clean that up...we'd win more games.

[Partial]

Your statement is absurd. Please reread this exchange.

Just stop. Please.

He's like that knight in Monty Python that even though you cut off his arms and legs he won't admit he's beaten.

I'm done with his over the top statements and parroting what he hears on the radio and online. He's admitted to not watching games but then comes out with his "expert" opinion which is just a hodge podge of what others have said. No original thought. I'm done with the parrot.

Don't be that guy. I made a joke. You said I said something. I said where? You quoted the joke, like a DFI. Use that domeski bro.

Snake, I don't dislike Aaron I just see him for what he is. He has the physical talents to be a very solid NFL qb, but so did Ryan Leaf. He hasn't won games, and when the pressure is on to make a play, he hasn't done it so far. Will he ever learn to? It's his 5th year so I doubt it, but maybe. Hopefully.

Aaron has beat the following teams since more than 5 games of footage were available of him.

- The 0-16 Lions (including this year).
- Squeeked by the Bears after Cutler threw the game away in 4 picks
- The St. Louis Rams, which are up there with Detroit as the laughing stock of the NFL
- The Cleveland Browns, the laughing stock of the NFL.

Possibly one or two other teams. I don't have the statistics in front of me so I don't remember.

But, those teams are a laughing stock. That's not beating up on average competition. That is beating the worst of the worst. This is NC playing against UWM. UF playing against Platteville. Packers versus Highschoolers.

I don't give credit because he should beat those teams. Doing what is expected is just that. Doing what is expected. It's not going above and beyond or exceeding expectations. Thus, no credit. Crushing those teams in the status quo. It's not exceptional, it's average. Most of those games were far closer than they should have been, at that. Not saying this is all Aaron, but as I have pointed out numerous times I believe everything has to work in harmony for success.

Talk to me when he starts beating teams around 500. Then talk to me when he beats what is considered a good team. Beating the Steelers on the road would really show me a lot. That would be a special win. Beating the Cowboys at home, given the teams expectations, should be a quality win but not overly special.

Having a great QB is supposed to lift the rest of the team up and prepare them for glory. Big Ben does this. Peyton Manning is throwing to a bunch of nobodys and had an even worse OL last year than we do this year and still took his team to the playoffs.

It's called gut check time. Either you bang the cheerleader or you settle for head of the knitting club. Carry this team on your back, for once, and you will start getting some credit. He's the god damn quarterback. It's time he starts acting like it.

He was better last year, everyone saying that is right. If this is comfortable for him, then the team needs to make him feel... wait for it... wait for it.... uncomfortable. The way he is playing right now is horrible and hurting the team. Instead of an asset, he is a liability.

Waldo made an excellent post the other day about how McCarthy needs to discipline him. If I were the coach, I would yank his head around by his face mask and make sure he listens and listens good. I would tell him he's either going to do three step drops and unload the ball, or he's going to sit down. Waldo raised the question as to whether Flynn could be equally effective in the short passing game and I think he probably could be. This guy needs a chip on his shoulder. Right now he plays like he's comfortable and doesn't really care. I can understand that as a bro just got paid.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Colts had a worse line than ours. LOL

Ryan Diem- better.
Jeff Saturday - 3x pro bowl, 2x all pro...better
Tony ugoh - better
Mike Pollak- better

Do you actually follow football?

[Partial]

Colts had a worse line than ours. LOL

Ryan Diem- better.
Jeff Saturday - 3x pro bowl, 2x all pro...better
Tony ugoh - better
Mike Pollak- better

Do you actually follow football?

4 new starters last year. Line was a sieve. Did you watch football? Stat numbers won't really count since Manning gets rid of the ball....

Wow, do you reallly not recall how terrible that line was at the start of last year?!? It was beyond awful.

[pbmax]

Aaron has beat the following teams since more than 5 games of footage were available of him.

- The 0-16 Lions (including this year).
- Squeeked by the Bears after Cutler threw the game away in 4 picks
- The St. Louis Rams, which are up there with Detroit as the laughing stock of the NFL
- The Cleveland Browns, the laughing stock of the NFL.

Possibly one or two other teams. I don't have the statistics in front of me so I don't remember.
Tell me, by this reasoning, shouldn't we get rid of Al Harris or Nick Barnett?

[MJZiggy]

Aaron has beat the following teams since more than 5 games of footage were available of him.

- The 0-16 Lions (including this year).
- Squeeked by the Bears after Cutler threw the game away in 4 picks
- The St. Louis Rams, which are up there with Detroit as the laughing stock of the NFL
- The Cleveland Browns, the laughing stock of the NFL.

Possibly one or two other teams. I don't have the statistics in front of me so I don't remember.
Tell me, by this reasoning, shouldn't we get rid of Al Harris or Nick Barnett?

Hang on a sec, I'm trying to get this straight...are the Rams the laughing stock because they're up there with Detroit which would indicate that Detroit is the laughing stock, or is it the Browns that are the laughing stock...And I see that the win against the Bears was accidental, we didn't do anything to GET those picks, huh? Maybe we beat all those laughing stocks because we're better than they are which would make us not a laughing stock which would mean that maybe Aaron's wins are not as accidental as you'd make them out to be. PB, by that reasoning, you have to get rid of Barnett because Harris has a cute butt in his uniform.

[sharpe1027]

Aaron has beat the following teams since more than 5 games of footage were available of him.

- The 0-16 Lions (including this year).
- Squeeked by the Bears after Cutler threw the game away in 4 picks
- The St. Louis Rams, which are up there with Detroit as the laughing stock of the NFL
- The Cleveland Browns, the laughing stock of the NFL.

Possibly one or two other teams. I don't have the statistics in front of me so I don't remember.
Tell me, by this reasoning, shouldn't we get rid of Al Harris or Nick Barnett?

It doesn't matter. Either it was just a joke or the position has been taken, and nothing you say or do will matter. Might as well just accept it.

Back to snake's point.


Snake must state...ARod is a top ten QB talent wise....but his pocket savvy and release is really poor.

I can see where you are coming from. However, a pocket sense means you have a sense for what your linemen are doing and where the pressure is coming from. Usually it involves having a pocket to step up into and lanes to throw. For that reason, I think even Favre, one of the best, would look lost back there.

I am not saying Rodgers isn't part of the problem. I am just saying that he might not be as bad as he looks.

I would also reserve judgement until I could see receivers, including the dump-off man. Frankly, if I was playing that packers, I would be sure to take away the dump-off pass and then count on getting pressure to protect against anything down-the-field.

[pbmax]

Where did this thought come from that there is a problem with Rodgers release? Source anyone?

We aren't talking about how long he holds the ball, people seem to be saying his throwing motion is slow, like Leftwich.

[Partial]

Aaron has beat the following teams since more than 5 games of footage were available of him.

- The 0-16 Lions (including this year).
- Squeeked by the Bears after Cutler threw the game away in 4 picks
- The St. Louis Rams, which are up there with Detroit as the laughing stock of the NFL
- The Cleveland Browns, the laughing stock of the NFL.

Possibly one or two other teams. I don't have the statistics in front of me so I don't remember.
Tell me, by this reasoning, shouldn't we get rid of Al Harris or Nick Barnett?

I don't think we should get rid of ARod. I was making a joke. Jeez. He's the best option we have now, but from what the media is saying that may not be for long.

He's probably the 12th best quarterback in the NFL imo. Until we have someone >12 no sense in moving on.

[Smidgeon]

Snake, I don't dislike Aaron I just see him for what he is. He has the physical talents to be a very solid NFL qb, but so did Ryan Leaf. He hasn't won games, and when the pressure is on to make a play, he hasn't done it so far. Will he ever learn to? It's his 5th year so I doubt it, but maybe. Hopefully.

Did you even read my post about QBs' winning record in their first two years and how it means jack? Not their rookie year and the one after, but their first two years starting more than one game. Your assessment about AR's ability to win is premature. For your viewing pleasure, the information once again:

QBs who didn't have a winning record either of their first two years starting more than one game:

Bart Starr, Fran Tarkenton, Joe Namath, Bob Griese, Terry Bradshaw, Dan Fouts, Warren Moon, Steve Young, Jim Kelly, and Troy Aikman

Their collective accomplishments:
* 10 HOFers
* 16 NFL championships (including 3 pre-Super Bowl by Starr)
* 8 Regular season MVPs
* 2 Regular season AFL MVPs (by Namath)
* 6 Super Bowl MVPs
* 26 Pro Bowl appearances
* 6 AFL All Star appearances (by Namath and Griese)
* the only player to be in both the NFL HOF and the Canadian HOF (Moon)
* the only QB to guide his team to 4 consecutive Super Bowls (Kelly)

By the way, for point of comparison to AR, Steve Young was in his 8th year when he had his first winning season after taking over in SF.

For those of you who want to see the original post. (http://packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=475470#475470)

[Partial]

Snake, I don't dislike Aaron I just see him for what he is. He has the physical talents to be a very solid NFL qb, but so did Ryan Leaf. He hasn't won games, and when the pressure is on to make a play, he hasn't done it so far. Will he ever learn to? It's his 5th year so I doubt it, but maybe. Hopefully.

Did you even read my post about QBs' winning record in their first two years and how it means jack? Not their rookie year and the one after, but their first two years starting more than one game. Your assessment about AR's ability to win is premature. For your viewing pleasure, the information once again:

QBs who didn't have a winning record either of their first two years starting more than one game:

Bart Starr, Fran Tarkenton, Joe Namath, Bob Griese, Terry Bradshaw, Dan Fouts, Warren Moon, Steve Young, Jim Kelly, and Troy Aikman

Their collective accomplishments:
* 10 HOFers
* 16 NFL championships (including 3 pre-Super Bowl by Starr)
* 8 Regular season MVPs
* 2 Regular season AFL MVPs (by Namath)
* 6 Super Bowl MVPs
* 26 Pro Bowl appearances
* 6 AFL All Star appearances (by Namath and Griese)
* the only player to be in both the NFL HOF and the Canadian HOF (Moon)
* the only QB to guide his team to 4 consecutive Super Bowls (Kelly)

By the way, Steve Young was in his 8th year when he had his first winning season after taking over in SF.

For those of you who want to see the original post. (http://packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=475470#475470)

Can't disregard that data but I just don't see it in ARod. How many of those guys road the pine for 3 years? Different eras, too.

[Smidgeon]

Can't disregard that data but I just don't see it in ARod. How many of those guys road the pine for 3 years? Different eras, too.

So when did the current era begin? And how are you qualified to say that you don't see it in AR? What is your expertise there?

[Partial]

Can't disregard that data but I just don't see it in ARod. How many of those guys road the pine for 3 years? Different eras, too.

So when did the current era begin? And how are you qualified to say that you don't see it in AR? What is your expertise there?

I'm not qualified. The opinion is my own. I don't have the time to look up the data on eras, but there were clearly less teams when Starr played, did you count Moon's AFL years or just NFL? What about the other guys? I'm not some football historian I'm 24 so I don't know when all those jbros played.

[Smidgeon]

Can't disregard that data but I just don't see it in ARod. How many of those guys road the pine for 3 years? Different eras, too.

So when did the current era begin? And how are you qualified to say that you don't see it in AR? What is your expertise there?

I'm not qualified. The opinion is my own. I don't have the time to look up the data on eras, but there were clearly less teams when Starr played, did you count Moon's AFL years or just NFL? What about the other guys? I'm not some football historian I'm 24 so I don't know when all those jbros played.

Fair enough. Would you personally consider Aikman and Steve Young part of this era?

[Partial]

Yes.

[Smidgeon]

Yes.

My only point, and the reason I've been bringing it up is that there isn't a correlation between how good a QB ends up being and his winning record his first couple of years. Sure, bad QBs couldn't win their first couple years, but neither could most of the greatest of all time. It took Steve Young until his 8th year to really QB a great team. He was drafted by the Buccaneers who had a bad team. I think AR's got a middling team: a lot of talent but little consistency. I would rather have "just a stats" guy who's shown he can get those TDs in the NFL than have a college stats guy who can't do jack in the NFL. AR is in his fifth year in the NFL, but only his second year starting. You have to give him time and a solid team. QBs like Favre, Manning, and Brady that can single handedly make their receivers pro-bowlers are rare. Most QBs need a solid team. That's why it's too early to give up on AR. Because he's giving the stats now, it shows he can do it even while he's getting mugged on every play. Now imagine what happens when he's got a little more experience and a much better line: the wins will follow. Just be a little more patient.

[retailguy]

amen. well said.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Colts had a worse line than ours. LOL

Ryan Diem- better.
Jeff Saturday - 3x pro bowl, 2x all pro...better
Tony ugoh - better
Mike Pollak- better

Do you actually follow football?

4 new starters last year. Line was a sieve. Did you watch football? Stat numbers won't really count since Manning gets rid of the ball....

Wow, do you reallly not recall how terrible that line was at the start of last year?!? It was beyond awful.

Um, Saturday wasn't new. Ugoh wasn't new. Diem wasn't new.

Fail.

But, you are making my point. At the start of the year. Lines need time to gel.

[Partial]

Colts had a worse line than ours. LOL

Ryan Diem- better.
Jeff Saturday - 3x pro bowl, 2x all pro...better
Tony ugoh - better
Mike Pollak- better

Do you actually follow football?

4 new starters last year. Line was a sieve. Did you watch football? Stat numbers won't really count since Manning gets rid of the ball....

Wow, do you reallly not recall how terrible that line was at the start of last year?!? It was beyond awful.

Um, Saturday wasn't new. Ugoh wasn't new. Diem wasn't new.

Fail.

But, you are making my point. At the start of the year. Lines need time to gel.

They were clearly injured at the start of the year, then, because I distinctly remember listening to how Peyton was running for his life since they had 4 new linemen starting.

Saturday: missed 4 games

Ugoh: Started 12 games last year, was benched this year from

Diem did start all 16, so he must have been the one returning linemen to open the season.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Colts had a worse line than ours. LOL

Ryan Diem- better.
Jeff Saturday - 3x pro bowl, 2x all pro...better
Tony ugoh - better
Mike Pollak- better

Do you actually follow football?

4 new starters last year. Line was a sieve. Did you watch football? Stat numbers won't really count since Manning gets rid of the ball....

Wow, do you reallly not recall how terrible that line was at the start of last year?!? It was beyond awful.

Um, Saturday wasn't new. Ugoh wasn't new. Diem wasn't new.

Fail.

But, you are making my point. At the start of the year. Lines need time to gel.

They were clearly injured at the start of the year, then, because I distinctly remember listening to how Peyton was running for his life since they had 4 new linemen starting.

Saturday: missed 4 games

Ugoh: Started 12 games last year, was benched this year from

Diem did start all 16, so he must have been the one returning linemen to open the season.

Wait, you mean you are taking in allowance for injury? Seems eerily similar to a packer team with injured starters in spitz and clifton. Not to mention last year's starter at RT being injured.

Since we judge a line on the season, the colt's line was better.

Fail.

[channtheman]

Love it! :lol: The very thing that Partial hates about packerrats, I love!

[Sparkey]

Yes.

My only point, and the reason I've been bringing it up is that there isn't a correlation between how good a QB ends up being and his winning record his first couple of years. Sure, bad QBs couldn't win their first couple years, but neither could most of the greatest of all time. It took Steve Young until his 8th year to really QB a great team. He was drafted by the Buccaneers who had a bad team. I think AR's got a middling team: a lot of talent but little consistency. I would rather have "just a stats" guy who's shown he can get those TDs in the NFL than have a college stats guy who can't do jack in the NFL. AR is in his fifth year in the NFL, but only his second year starting. You have to give him time and a solid team. QBs like Favre, Manning, and Brady that can single handedly make their receivers pro-bowlers are rare. Most QBs need a solid team. That's why it's too early to give up on AR. Because he's giving the stats now, it shows he can do it even while he's getting mugged on every play. Now imagine what happens when he's got a little more experience and a much better line: the wins will follow. Just be a little more patient.

+1

[pbmax]

The Colts problem wasn't the line early as much as it was Manning. He had the late surgery to correct an infected burs sac (second operation on that area) during (or right before) camp.

Once he was able to move in the pocket, they got back on track. He was just rounding into shape when the Packers caught them. The had a winning streak soon after the game. My guess is that he wasn't 100%, but it was a good win for last year's D.

[mraynrand]

Check out Brees two years into starting for San Diego. Pretty comparable sit, except Pack doesn't have LT.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Just be a little more patient.

We're PACKERS fans, not bears, vikings or lions fans, etc. We need results NOW. Instant gratification please. :D

[Smidgeon]

Just be a little more patient.

We're PACKERS fans, not bears, vikings or lions fans, etc. We need results NOW. Instant gratification please. :D

So do you drink homebrewed coffee or just grab a packet of instant and stir it in no matter what it tastes like? I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you're one of those people that likes quality coffee and won't touch instant with a ten-foot pole because it tastes nasty.

The same thing here: if you rush AR you're going to get the instant coffee version. If you're patient, you're giving him the chance to brew into something really nice.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I'm talking about EXPECTATIONS!! Not the proper method to get good results. I expect my coffee to be done in seconds AND taste expensive. I want to have my cake and eat it too. (of course i have NO idea what that phrase means, especially when I know from personal experience, when I have cake, I typically eat it.

[sharpe1027]

I'm talking about EXPECTATIONS!! Not the proper method to get good results. I expect my coffee to be done in seconds AND taste expensive. I want to have my cake and eat it too. (of course i have NO idea what that phrase means, especially when I know from personal experience, when I have cake, I typically eat it.

Do you still have your cake in front of you after you are done eating it? That is, assuming you aren't extremely hung-over and get sick shortly thereafter.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Given the choice, I'd rather have pie.

[SnakeLH2006]

Actually after rereading this...I have to restate what I meant about ARod's release.

Arod when given time is as elite as Peyton or any QB Snake has seen delivering the football for big plays. Very good.

My problem has been his pocket savvy. Poor at diagnosing blitzers/or poor at getting rid of the ball. Either way, the OL sucks, but he knows that and needs to dump the ball off or throw it out of bounds.

The release thing which had some questions wasn't worded well on my part. Arod has a lightning quick release. I meant he is slow to diagnose/or is unwilling to dump the ball off or throw it out of bounds. That is a killer though. Those stats from the Tampa Bay game on his holding the ball (5-7 seconds) and taking sacks just kill drives, and in turn hurt field position (ST and Defense). It's a trickle down effect.

As far as pure talent/QB skills...Arod is up there with anyone I've EVER seen athletically. But the sack thing is HUGE (where I made the loser analogy via wins/losses). Fair? I dunno. But he is 10-14 on some talented teams.

I really think this goes on Mike McFatty as he doesn't seem to have any balls anymore to discipline/advise ARod to make a quick 1-2 read and toss it away or dump it off. Arod looks for the big play EVERY time.

This is something Brett excels in. Granted Brett's problem was never sacks, but tossing it up for grabs when the pressure hit him early in his career. Arod's is getting sacked. Holmy reigned Favre in by his 3rd-4th year and we were title contenders yearly and Favre won 3 straight MVPs. McFatty seems lost. If that OL is this bad, tell him to throw it away. Those sacks are drive killers that not only hurt the TD % but ST and D as well with field position. Stats are misleading with the HUGE amounts of record sacks Arod has taken in 2009.

Boomer from CBS did a QB rating formula with sacks involved 2 weeks ago on NFL Today, and Arod's rating would fall from his guady status to about an 80 rating with sacks involved. That's what I'm getting at.

It's terrible cuz Arod is likable, a leader, and has elite passing skills (he's no Ryan Leaf, Partial...WTF was that about?) but needs a coach to tell him that 2nd and 10 is ok. 2nd and 19 is not ok.

Bottom line:

Arod has shown elite passing skills. McFatty needs to reign him and have him throw the ball away more often. McFatty will be hitting up the dollar menu by Jan. 2010 without a job hopefully.

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7144/72601738.jpg

[MichiganPackerFan]

I'm talking about EXPECTATIONS!! Not the proper method to get good results. I expect my coffee to be done in seconds AND taste expensive. I want to have my cake and eat it too. (of course i have NO idea what that phrase means, especially when I know from personal experience, when I have cake, I typically eat it.

Do you still have your cake in front of you after you are done eating it? That is, assuming you aren't extremely hung-over and get sick shortly thereafter.

Is THAT what it means? Stupid phrase through and through..

[Scott Campbell]

As far as pure talent/QB skills...Arod is up there with anyone I've EVER seen athletically. But the sack thing is HUGE (where I made the loser analogy via wins/losses). Fair? I dunno. But he is 10-14 on some talented teams.



Our D has sucked 2 years in a row.
Our Special Teams have sucked 2 years in a row.
Our O-Line has sucked 2 years in a row.
Our run game has sucked 2 years in a row.

But other than that, we've fielded pretty talented teams.

[Partial]

As far as pure talent/QB skills...Arod is up there with anyone I've EVER seen athletically. But the sack thing is HUGE (where I made the loser analogy via wins/losses). Fair? I dunno. But he is 10-14 on some talented teams.



Our D has sucked 2 years in a row.
Our Special Teams have sucked 2 years in a row.
Our O-Line has sucked 2 years in a row.
Our run game has sucked 2 years in a row.

But other than that, we've fielded pretty talented teams.

I don't understand how the D has sucked this year. They haven't been lights out but they've been better than suck.

ST has sucked two years in a row. Never should have gotten rid of the red head.

OL and running game have sucked two years in a row, but yet with the same players were both lights out in 2007. Ho hum.