Rodgers holds balls too long??

[Bossman641]

There was an interesting article on ESPN the other day where one of the stats guys went through and timed how long Rodgers held onto the ball on every sack this year.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/6016/air-and-space-timing-rodgers-on-sacks


How should we judge this data? It's important to note that every team has different standards for a quarterback's release, and often they depend on the type of dropback and route tree associated with the play call. Regardless, in West Coast offenses such as Green Bay's, the rule of thumb generally is four seconds. Put it this way: There are few plays designed for a quarterback to hold it longer, and given the state of the Packers' offensive line, I think you can safely assume none of them have been called.

Gargiulo's chart has some big numbers on it, including 8.0 seconds last week against Tampa Bay and 6.5 seconds two weeks ago against Minnesota. But overall, Rodgers was sacked prior to the four-second mark on 28 of the 37 occasions.

Even if you adjust for subjective timing and the intent of each particular play call, I think this study gives us an important baseline: It's roughly 3-1. We can fairly blame Rodgers for one of every four sacks he's taken.

You might consider that a higher number than it should be, but I look at it differently. To me, it means the focus on Rodgers' role in the sacks shouldn't overshadow the bigger picture: Responsibility for the majority lies elsewhere.

1 in 4 sounds about right to me. This line makes me sick. I watch other games and see the OL create a nice pocket. Then I watch the Packers and see the tackles getting bull-rushed into Rodgers almost every play.

[Maxie the Taxi]

When opponents game plan for the Packers, their first thought is rush the passer with everything they got. They keep doing it until the Packers give them a reason not to: like a heavy dose of rushing, or quick slants, or screens, which the Packers don't do -- especially if the defense (or special teams gives up a quick score or a quick retaliatory score and MM panics and feels under the gun to score quickly.

There is no mystery in what the Packers' offense is going to do. Drop back and pass downfield. We pass in situations when the defense expects us to pass and we rush hardly at all. Dah?

That's a hell of burden on any offensive line, especially one that's beat up with injuries, musical-chair syndrome, inexperience and low or no confidence.

[Pugger]

Green Bay uses a WCO? Could've fooled me. Unless I am mistaken the WCO uses a lot of short passes and slants, something MM is loathe to use. And the fool can't figure out why his QB is getting hammered every week? Please... :roll:

[red]

thank you bossman, i was just asking for this stat yesterday

good find

[pbmax]

When opponents game plan for the Packers, their first thought is rush the passer with everything they got. They keep doing it until the Packers give them a reason not to: like a heavy dose of rushing, or quick slants, or screens, which the Packers don't do -- especially if the defense (or special teams gives up a quick score or a quick retaliatory score and MM panics and feels under the gun to score quickly.

There is no mystery in what the Packers' offense is going to do. Drop back and pass downfield. We pass in situations when the defense expects us to pass and we rush hardly at all. Dah?

That's a hell of burden on any offensive line, especially one that's beat up with injuries, musical-chair syndrome, inexperience and low or no confidence.
Bucs only rushed four most of the time.

[Scott Campbell]

Bucs only rushed four most of the time.


Yeah, and that's what makes it even more disturbing. There's nothing magical happening on the other side of the ball - other than the results.

[Cheesehead Craig]

So much for the theory that Rodgers is responsible for the majority of the sacks.

Great stuff!

[g4orce]

Green Bay uses a WCO? Could've fooled me. Unless I am mistaken the WCO uses a lot of short passes and slants, something MM is loathe to use. And the fool can't figure out why his QB is getting hammered every week? Please... :roll:


Maybe Rodgers wont throw the slants and short passes? He NEVER throws over the middle of the field. Its quite disturbing.

[Smidgeon]

Maybe Rodgers wont throw the slants and short passes? He NEVER throws over the middle of the field. Its quite disturbing.

As long as he isn't throwing late over the middle of the field...

As to "never", not true. He's thrown balls over the middle to Jones, Finley, Driver, etc. I just don't think you see a lot of short (< 5 yds) throws over that area.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Maybe Rodgers wont throw the slants and short passes? He NEVER throws over the middle of the field. Its quite disturbing.

As long as he isn't throwing late over the middle of the field...

As to "never", not true. He's thrown balls over the middle to Jones, Finley, Driver, etc. I just don't think you see a lot of short (< 5 yds) throws over that area.
He's thrown over the middle plenty. Here's his stats per ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8439

It's like Mythbusters around here with Rodgers today.

[hoosier]

When opponents game plan for the Packers, their first thought is rush the passer with everything they got. They keep doing it until the Packers give them a reason not to: like a heavy dose of rushing, or quick slants, or screens, which the Packers don't do -- especially if the defense (or special teams gives up a quick score or a quick retaliatory score and MM panics and feels under the gun to score quickly.

There is no mystery in what the Packers' offense is going to do. Drop back and pass downfield. We pass in situations when the defense expects us to pass and we rush hardly at all. Dah?

That's a hell of burden on any offensive line, especially one that's beat up with injuries, musical-chair syndrome, inexperience and low or no confidence.
Bucs only rushed four most of the time.

I think he meant the DL is not worrying about the run game, and "pinning its ears back" and just rushing the passer. That said, I don't think McCarthy's play calling is to blame for the Packers pass protection problems: the OL gets full credit for that. McCarthy's play calling is only to blame for its failure to adjust to the putrid performances put out by the front five.

[g4orce]

Maybe Rodgers wont throw the slants and short passes? He NEVER throws over the middle of the field. Its quite disturbing.

As long as he isn't throwing late over the middle of the field...

As to "never", not true. He's thrown balls over the middle to Jones, Finley, Driver, etc. I just don't think you see a lot of short (< 5 yds) throws over that area.
He's thrown over the middle plenty. Here's his stats per ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8439

It's like Mythbusters around here with Rodgers today.


YIKES! Nice stats...

So maybe he attemps to throw over the middle but just flat out sucks at it? That should work out real well for a WCO? Oh wait, maybe thats why were struggling a lil bit too?

[hoosier]

Maybe Rodgers wont throw the slants and short passes? He NEVER throws over the middle of the field. Its quite disturbing.

As long as he isn't throwing late over the middle of the field...

As to "never", not true. He's thrown balls over the middle to Jones, Finley, Driver, etc. I just don't think you see a lot of short (< 5 yds) throws over that area.
He's thrown over the middle plenty. Here's his stats per ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8439

It's like Mythbusters around here with Rodgers today.

One interesting point is that his pass rating for throws over the middle is significantly lower (68 vs. 90s and above) than for any other throw. I wonder if that speaks to Rodgers strenghts (outs. comebacks and gos more than slants) or if it's a function of the protection problems and fewer throwing lanes in middle of pocket.

[Fritz]

I would like the headline to have read "Rodgers Holds Balls too Long"

[Smidgeon]

One interesting point is that his pass rating for throws over the middle is significantly lower (68 vs. 90s and above) than for any other throw. I wonder if that speaks to Rodgers strenghts (outs. comebacks and gos more than slants) or if it's a function of the protection problems and fewer throwing lanes in middle of pocket.

He certainly loves him some sideline...

[Bossman641]

I would like the headline to have read "Rodgers Holds Balls too Long"

Request met, except I had to add a question mark in there as I didn't want to make a definitive statement that he holds them too long.

[pbmax]

Maybe Rodgers wont throw the slants and short passes? He NEVER throws over the middle of the field. Its quite disturbing.

As long as he isn't throwing late over the middle of the field...

As to "never", not true. He's thrown balls over the middle to Jones, Finley, Driver, etc. I just don't think you see a lot of short (< 5 yds) throws over that area.
He's thrown over the middle plenty. Here's his stats per ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8439

It's like Mythbusters around here with Rodgers today.


YIKES! Nice stats...

So maybe he attemps to throw over the middle but just flat out sucks at it? That should work out real well for a WCO? Oh wait, maybe thats why were struggling a lil bit too?
If your worst split is one touchdown away from an 80 passer rating, then you don't suck and have a small sample size. Say, if Jennings doesn't drop the ball on a long touchdown in the middle.

[green_bowl_packer]

I would like the headline to have read "Rodgers Holds Balls too Long"

Request met, except I had to add a question mark in there as I didn't want to make a definitive statement that he holds them too long.


There was a joke about this exact thing recently can't remember where I saw it (Bill Simmons?) Line was:

Rodgers holds onto balls longer than Al Bundy.

[Fritz]

A much better thread now.

He seems to hold his balls too long, but then again according to the article that doesn't happen as often as we seem to think. His offensive line is also being given responsiblity for many of his sacks.

I am a little concerned that Rodgers holds his balls too long and has multiple sacks.

Maybe in honor of our friend Skin, we should start calling Rodgers's sacks "skinbaskets."

[Cheesehead Craig]

Maybe Rodgers wont throw the slants and short passes? He NEVER throws over the middle of the field. Its quite disturbing.

As long as he isn't throwing late over the middle of the field...

As to "never", not true. He's thrown balls over the middle to Jones, Finley, Driver, etc. I just don't think you see a lot of short (< 5 yds) throws over that area.
He's thrown over the middle plenty. Here's his stats per ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8439

It's like Mythbusters around here with Rodgers today.


YIKES! Nice stats...

So maybe he attemps to throw over the middle but just flat out sucks at it? That should work out real well for a WCO? Oh wait, maybe thats why were struggling a lil bit too?
If your worst split is one touchdown away from an 80 passer rating, then you don't suck and have a small sample size. Say, if Jennings doesn't drop the ball on a long touchdown in the middle.
Rodgers is so good in the other 4 (out of 5) areas for the splits that it's easier to forgive him for the fewer attempts there and the poor success rate.

[Maxie the Taxi]

When opponents game plan for the Packers, their first thought is rush the passer with everything they got. They keep doing it until the Packers give them a reason not to: like a heavy dose of rushing, or quick slants, or screens, which the Packers don't do -- especially if the defense (or special teams gives up a quick score or a quick retaliatory score and MM panics and feels under the gun to score quickly.

There is no mystery in what the Packers' offense is going to do. Drop back and pass downfield. We pass in situations when the defense expects us to pass and we rush hardly at all. Dah?

That's a hell of burden on any offensive line, especially one that's beat up with injuries, musical-chair syndrome, inexperience and low or no confidence.
Bucs only rushed four most of the time.

I think he meant the DL is not worrying about the run game, and "pinning its ears back" and just rushing the passer. That said, I don't think McCarthy's play calling is to blame for the Packers pass protection problems: the OL gets full credit for that. McCarthy's play calling is only to blame for its failure to adjust to the putrid performances put out by the front five.

Yeah, that's what I meant, but I do put more blame on the playcalling than you do for the poor pass protection. When he defense doesn't have to honor the run or the short passing game (dink and dump) it's a hell of an advantage to the DL and disadvantage to our OL.

I'd even go so far as to say that MM should shit-can the damn shotgun formation. Sure you can play-action off of it, but IMO play-action off the shotgun is not nearly as effective as off the old "I" formation. The DL knows that 90% of the time an offense in the shotgun is going to pass.

[Bossman641]

I'd even go so far as to say that MM should shit-can the damn shotgun formation. Sure you can play-action off of it, but IMO play-action off the shotgun is not nearly as effective as off the old "I" formation. The DL knows that 90% of the time an offense in the shotgun is going to pass.

I can agree with that. It would be interesting to see Rodgers' splits from the shotgun. Just my general feeling, but I feel it doesn't suit this team very well: it allows the DL to solely concentrate on Rodgers, Grant isn't quick enough to run effectively from the shotgun, Rodgers doesn't have enough experience to make the quick decisions necessary.

[Smidgeon]

I'd even go so far as to say that MM should shit-can the damn shotgun formation. Sure you can play-action off of it, but IMO play-action off the shotgun is not nearly as effective as off the old "I" formation. The DL knows that 90% of the time an offense in the shotgun is going to pass.

I can agree with that. It would be interesting to see Rodgers' splits from the shotgun. Just my general feeling, but I feel it doesn't suit this team very well: it allows the DL to solely concentrate on Rodgers, Grant isn't quick enough to run effectively from the shotgun, Rodgers doesn't have enough experience to make the quick decisions necessary.


FORMATION CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT RATT YDS AVG LNG TD
Shotgun 93 155 1175 60.0 7.58 62 7 1 21.0 96.0 15 149 9.9 19 2



P.S. RATT = Rushing Attempts

EDIT: So he gets sacked a lot on shotgun, but his rating isn't awful. Another thing I noticed in the splits data: 14 sacks have been on 1st and 10. 14!

[Bossman641]

I'd even go so far as to say that MM should shit-can the damn shotgun formation. Sure you can play-action off of it, but IMO play-action off the shotgun is not nearly as effective as off the old "I" formation. The DL knows that 90% of the time an offense in the shotgun is going to pass.

I can agree with that. It would be interesting to see Rodgers' splits from the shotgun. Just my general feeling, but I feel it doesn't suit this team very well: it allows the DL to solely concentrate on Rodgers, Grant isn't quick enough to run effectively from the shotgun, Rodgers doesn't have enough experience to make the quick decisions necessary.


FORMATION CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT RATT YDS AVG LNG TD
Shotgun 93 155 1175 60.0 7.58 62 7 1 21.0 96.0 15 149 9.9 19 2



Ok that's a little difficult to read.

93/155 for 1,175 yards. 60% completion rate. 7.58 YPA. Long of 62. 7 TD and 1 INT. 21 sacks. 96.0 rating.

I don't know what the other numbers are.

Better than I expected.

[Bossman641]

I'd even go so far as to say that MM should shit-can the damn shotgun formation. Sure you can play-action off of it, but IMO play-action off the shotgun is not nearly as effective as off the old "I" formation. The DL knows that 90% of the time an offense in the shotgun is going to pass.

I can agree with that. It would be interesting to see Rodgers' splits from the shotgun. Just my general feeling, but I feel it doesn't suit this team very well: it allows the DL to solely concentrate on Rodgers, Grant isn't quick enough to run effectively from the shotgun, Rodgers doesn't have enough experience to make the quick decisions necessary.


FORMATION CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT RATT YDS AVG LNG TD
Shotgun 93 155 1175 60.0 7.58 62 7 1 21.0 96.0 15 149 9.9 19 2



P.S. RATT = Rushing Attempts

EDIT: So he gets sacked a lot on shotgun, but his rating isn't awful. Another thing I noticed in the splits data: 14 sacks have been on 1st and 10. 14!

Assuming I am doing this right, he has 21 sacks on 176 snaps (155 pass attempts + 21 sacks) from the gun.
By comparison then, he must have 16 sacks on 121 snaps (105 attempts + 16 sacks) under center.

Sack rate in shotgun = 11.9
Sack rate under center = 13.22

[Smidgeon]

I'd even go so far as to say that MM should shit-can the damn shotgun formation. Sure you can play-action off of it, but IMO play-action off the shotgun is not nearly as effective as off the old "I" formation. The DL knows that 90% of the time an offense in the shotgun is going to pass.

I can agree with that. It would be interesting to see Rodgers' splits from the shotgun. Just my general feeling, but I feel it doesn't suit this team very well: it allows the DL to solely concentrate on Rodgers, Grant isn't quick enough to run effectively from the shotgun, Rodgers doesn't have enough experience to make the quick decisions necessary.


FORMATION CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT RATT YDS AVG LNG TD
Shotgun 93 155 1175 60.0 7.58 62 7 1 21.0 96.0 15 149 9.9 19 2



Ok that's a little difficult to read.

93/155 for 1,175 yards. 60% completion rate. 7.58 YPA. Long of 62. 7 TD and 1 INT. 21 sacks. 96.0 rating.

I don't know what the other numbers are.

Better than I expected.

Well, since the Packers don't use a lot of standard formations, there isn't a lot to compare it to. The other formation, Lone Setback, had a rating of 91.6. All I know is that it's less than his average of 103.whatever, so it isn't his best formation, but it isn't horrid. Over half the sacks occurring out of that formation should be noted however.

[sharpe1027]

A much better thread now.

He seems to hold his balls too long, but then again according to the article that doesn't happen as often as we seem to think. His offensive line is also being given responsiblity for many of his sacks.

I am a little concerned that Rodgers holds his balls too long and has multiple sacks.

Maybe in honor of our friend Skin, we should start calling Rodgers's sacks "skinbaskets."

Does Rodgers hold his balls longer than most because of his multiple sacks or does Rodgers have multiple sacks because he holds his balls longer than most?

I guess having multiple sacks naturally raises the question of why he has more sacks than any other QB. Are his multiple sacks a product of his environment or simply the way God made him? Perhaps, he was predisposed to having multiple sacks, but did not have so many sacks until conditions caused his holding of balls to result in him suddenly having many sacks.

It is truly a strange occurrence that deserves our attention. Perhaps there is something that can be done to get rid of at least some of his extra sacks.

[gbgary]

Green Bay uses a WCO? Could've fooled me. Unless I am mistaken the WCO uses a lot of short passes and slants, something MM is loathe to use. And the fool can't figure out why his QB is getting hammered every week? Please... :roll:

this!!

[ThunderDan]

Green Bay uses a WCO? Could've fooled me. Unless I am mistaken the WCO uses a lot of short passes and slants, something MM is loathe to use. And the fool can't figure out why his QB is getting hammered every week? Please... :roll:

this!!

I've been talking about this since week 1 and stop kicking field goals over 50+ yards..

[pbmax]

OK gbgary and Thunder Dan, will both of you be on the game day thread?

Let's chart the Packer passes and see how many 3, 5 and seven step drops we get. And let's see how many progressions Rodgers goes through and who he looks for first.

Playcalling versus QB decisions. Let's get some data from this game.

[ThunderDan]

OK gbgary and Thunder Dan, will both of you be on the game day thread?

Let's chart the Packer passes and see how many 3, 5 and seven step drops we get. And let's see how many progressions Rodgers goes through and who he looks for first.

Playcalling versus QB decisions. Let's get some data from this game.

I'd love some good data on the subject.

I will be at the mighty Lambeau Sunday afternoon yelling my guts out.

PS - Being the classless fan that I am I will be booing Romo.

[Smidgeon]

PS - Being the classless fan that I am I will be booing Romo.

+1

[bobblehead]

Maybe Rodgers wont throw the slants and short passes? He NEVER throws over the middle of the field. Its quite disturbing.

As long as he isn't throwing late over the middle of the field...

As to "never", not true. He's thrown balls over the middle to Jones, Finley, Driver, etc. I just don't think you see a lot of short (< 5 yds) throws over that area.
He's thrown over the middle plenty. Here's his stats per ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=8439

It's like Mythbusters around here with Rodgers today.

Again with the over the top statement by g4orce. It must suck getting it in the mouth daily.

[bobblehead]

OK gbgary and Thunder Dan, will both of you be on the game day thread?

Let's chart the Packer passes and see how many 3, 5 and seven step drops we get. And let's see how many progressions Rodgers goes through and who he looks for first.

Playcalling versus QB decisions. Let's get some data from this game.
This is why PR is still the best packer website out there....no other site has posters willing to make this kind of commitment to settle a debate.....kudos guys. (someone else can insert the granola snack picture).

[Badgerinmaine]

Nice post, Bossman--thanks for putting it up.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I'd even go so far as to say that MM should shit-can the damn shotgun formation. Sure you can play-action off of it, but IMO play-action off the shotgun is not nearly as effective as off the old "I" formation. The DL knows that 90% of the time an offense in the shotgun is going to pass.

I can agree with that. It would be interesting to see Rodgers' splits from the shotgun. Just my general feeling, but I feel it doesn't suit this team very well: it allows the DL to solely concentrate on Rodgers, Grant isn't quick enough to run effectively from the shotgun, Rodgers doesn't have enough experience to make the quick decisions necessary.


FORMATION CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT RATT YDS AVG LNG TD
Shotgun 93 155 1175 60.0 7.58 62 7 1 21.0 96.0 15 149 9.9 19 2



P.S. RATT = Rushing Attempts

EDIT: So he gets sacked a lot on shotgun, but his rating isn't awful. Another thing I noticed in the splits data: 14 sacks have been on 1st and 10. 14!

Unbelievable the type of stats you guys can come up with. Thanks.

I kind of suspected that he was sacked alot on 1st down. MM seems to call an inordinate number of passes on 1st down. That stat kind of confirms that defenses aren't confused or fooled. They just pin their ears back and go.

[Smidgeon]

Unbelievable the type of stats you guys can come up with. Thanks.

I kind of suspected that he was sacked alot on 1st down. MM seems to call an inordinate number of passes on 1st down. That stat kind of confirms that defenses aren't confused or fooled. They just pin their ears back and go.

Believe you me, I'm not the one coming up with stats. I just pulled the necessary data from the split stats screen on NFL.com.

And I'm not sure M3 calls more passes than runs on 1st down. I don't know what's happening for sure, but GB's been leading the league (not sure if they still do) in quick strike offense. Which means AR might be looking for the big play right out of the gate. Speculation.

[MJZiggy]

A much better thread now.

He seems to hold his balls too long, but then again according to the article that doesn't happen as often as we seem to think. His offensive line is also being given responsiblity for many of his sacks.

I am a little concerned that Rodgers holds his balls too long and has multiple sacks.

Maybe in honor of our friend Skin, we should start calling Rodgers's sacks "skinbaskets."

One could say that if he'd just let go of his balls, he'd be a more efficient passer.

(I've always loved a good double entendre)

[Fritz]

I still think we should start calling sacks "skinbaskets" in honor of our so-named Packerrat.

"Oh no! Rodgers just got skinbasketed!"

"The opposing team has four skinbaskets on Rodgers today."

I little lengthy, but it works.

[Maxie the Taxi]

A much better thread now.

He seems to hold his balls too long, but then again according to the article that doesn't happen as often as we seem to think. His offensive line is also being given responsiblity for many of his sacks.

I am a little concerned that Rodgers holds his balls too long and has multiple sacks.

Maybe in honor of our friend Skin, we should start calling Rodgers's sacks "skinbaskets."

One could say that if he'd just let go of his balls, he'd be a more efficient passer.

(I've always loved a good double entendre)

Maybe MM heard a double entendre when Mike the groundskeeper said to him: "Hey coach, let's get the boys ready to kick some butt this weekend." :)

[Scott Campbell]

So letting go of his balls means avoiding his sack?

[MJZiggy]

I think you've got it. Once he lets his balls go, the sack isn't an issue.

[sharpe1027]

Sometimes there is a sack involved even when he doesn't hold his balls too long.