Bills grab Brohm off the practice squad

[imscott72]

per Bedard via Twitter..

[digitaldean]

Now I am really pissed off at Buffalo!

First they steal Craig Nall, now this!!! :lol:

Maybe Brohm will get things turned around in Buffalo. He definitely looked like a fish out of water here.

[Lurker64]

I was sadder to see them steal Jamon Meredith off the practice squad.

[Guiness]

lol - wow

We get no compensation for that, right? I wonder if Brohm even gave the Pack a chance to put him on the squad, and they didn't want to?

I know this isn't really related, but with the # of sacks Rodgers has taken, I'd feel a lot better if we were running with 3 QBs!

[Lurker64]

I know this isn't really related, but with the # of sacks Rodgers has taken, I'd feel a lot better if we were running with 3 QBs!

There's a lot of QBs on other people's practice squads we could sign to the roster spot vacated by Jake Allen: Brett Basanez, Richard Bartel, John David Booty, Ryan Durand, Hunter Cantwell, Rudy Carpenter, Rhett Bomar, and Andre Woodson. How many of these guys do you really feel worse about than Brohm?

[Partial]

Well this is dumb given that we had an open roster spot. Goodbye second round pick..

[imscott72]

Brohm wanted out..

Brohm declines Packers, signs with Bills
By Greg A. Bedard of the Journal Sentinel
Nov. 18, 2009 11:01 p.m.

Green Bay – Brian Brohm is no longer a member of the Green Bay Packers’ organization.

And this time that was his choice.

On the practice squad since being cut by the Packers at the final roster cutdown before the regular season, Brohm was signed Wednesday night by the Buffalo Bills to their active roster, a source said.

The Packers had an open roster spot after waiving wide receiver Jake Allen and attempted to retain Brohm by offering the same two-year deal as the Bills did. But in the end, the Packers’ second-round pick in 2008 thought it best to go to a team searching for a quarterback, not stay on one that has its long-term answer at the position in Aaron Rodgers.

Brohm also gets a chance to be reunited with Eric Wood, Brohm’s center when the two were at the University of Louisville together. Wood was the Bill’s second first-round pick in the ’09 draft.

Brohm is the second recent Packers’ draft pick to be plucked from the Packers’ practice squad by the Bills. Jamon Meredith, fifth-round pick this year, was signed by the Bills in September and started three games at right tackle.

[Lurker64]

Well this is dumb given that we had an open roster spot. Goodbye second round pick..

But, in an amusing bit of karmic balancing, we got about as much out of Brohm as the Browns got out of Corey Williams.

[red]

what an absolute waste

[Partial]

Knowing that it was his choice not to resign makes me not as irritated by this. Clearly they did open the JA spot for Brohm and he declined. Can't say that I blame him knowing that Rodgers is solid and Flynn has looked good too, but at the sametime it may have been to his benefit to spend another year with the Pack to go through QB school.

Is it Obiozor time? I recall hearing how good this guy looked all summer.

[Lurker64]

I think really we could do more to help this team with the roster spot vacated by Jake Allen than to put Brohm on this roster. It was pretty clear that Brohm wasn't going to magically vault Flynn on the depth chart any time soon and #3 QBs aren't particularly valuable, nor do they tend to contribute much to a team.

I'm disappointed that the second round pick was wasted, but when we first cut Brohm, I had no doubt that he'd jump ship as soon as a team came calling during the season.

[Smidgeon]

I know this isn't really related, but with the # of sacks Rodgers has taken, I'd feel a lot better if we were running with 3 QBs!

There's a lot of QBs on other people's practice squads we could sign to the roster spot vacated by Jake Allen: Brett Basanez, Richard Bartel, John David Booty, Ryan Durand, Hunter Cantwell, Rudy Carpenter, Rhett Bomar, and Andre Woodson. How many of these guys do you really feel worse about than Brohm?

What's the deal, Lurker? Where'd you get all your roster knowledge? Constant perusing of the web? Somewhere else?

[sheepshead]

what an absolute waste

He mine as well go.

[Waldo]

Not disappointed at all.

Brohm sucked.

$10 says we draft a QB in '10. 8-)

[Badgerinmaine]

I think really we could do more to help this team with the roster spot vacated by Jake Allen than to put Brohm on this roster. It was pretty clear that Brohm wasn't going to magically vault Flynn on the depth chart any time soon and #3 QBs aren't particularly valuable, nor do they tend to contribute much to a team.

I'm disappointed that the second round pick was wasted, but when we first cut Brohm, I had no doubt that he'd jump ship as soon as a team came calling during the season.
I agree. I think if you go back to when Brohm was drafted, most people thought he was drafted where people expected or even a little lower. He did a lot worse than expected; Flynn, taken very late in the same draft, has looked (in preseason games anyhow) a lot better than people expected. The way I look at it, I just pretend their draft positions were flopped, and then I feel a lot better. :-)

Any why wouldn't he go? Not only is Buffalo unsettled at QB--I don't think many people think Ryan Fitzpatrick is their long-term answer, plus you have a new coach there who need not do what's been done before there. Only a catastrophe would have had him playing in Green Bay. Let's wish him luck and move on.

[Smidgeon]

$10 says we draft a QB in '10. 8-)

You have a round you're thinking of?

[Bretsky]

another blown high draft pick

[pbmax]

Brohm is not ready to be an NFL QB. And the Bills are not ready to nurture an NFL QB. This is a bad call by Brohm and his agent. This team fired its offensive coordinator a week before the season started.

The only chance he has is if the Bills hire Shanahan or Gruden and the new guy likes Brohm. He would have been better off training with a known commodity and beating Flynn for the backup job, then leaving. But there is just as good a chance that a new coach is going to want his own guy.

[SkinBasket]

Brohm is not ready to be an NFL QB. And the Bills are not ready to nurture an NFL QB. This is a bad call by Brohm and his agent. This team fired its offensive coordinator a week before the season started.

The only chance he has is if the Bills hire Shanahan or Gruden and the new guy likes Brohm. He would have been better off training with a known commodity and beating Flynn for the backup job, then leaving. But there is just as good a chance that a new coach is going to want his own guy.

I don't know about that. Remember that Brohm is considered a busted 2nd round pick who cleared and made the PS with apparently only one other PS offer. Given the chance to get on an active roster, he's got to take it.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I know this isn't really related, but with the # of sacks Rodgers has taken, I'd feel a lot better if we were running with 3 QBs!

There's a lot of QBs on other people's practice squads we could sign to the roster spot vacated by Jake Allen: Brett Basanez, Richard Bartel, John David Booty, Ryan Durand, Hunter Cantwell, Rudy Carpenter, Rhett Bomar, and Andre Woodson. How many of these guys do you really feel worse about than Brohm?

What's the deal, Lurker? Where'd you get all your roster knowledge? Constant perusing of the web? Somewhere else?

[Footnote: I had Andre Woodson on my draft list. He might be an interesting replacement.]

[hoosier]

another blown high draft pick

2005: Rodgers (1), Collins (2), Murphy (2)
2006: Hawk (1), Colledge (2), Jennings (2)
2007: Harrell (1), Jackson (2)
2008: Nelson (2), Brohm (2), Lee (2)
2009: Raji (1), Matthews (1)

So far we know that Brohm was a bust. Murphy and almost certainly Harrell didn't work out because of injuries. Lee seems to be a good bet to bust or to be unable to stay healthy, or both. Rodgers and Jennings are stars and maybe even more. Matthews seems to be headed in that direction too. Collins and Hawk are at least solid starters, potentially more.

I think TT's record on high draft picks is better than Wolf's. Only two busts in five drafts (I am not including Harrell) is a pretty good average.

[KYPack]

another blown high draft pick

2005: Rodgers (1), Collins (2), Murphy (2)
2006: Hawk (1), Colledge (2), Jennings (2)
2007: Harrell (1), Jackson (2)
2008: Nelson (2), Brohm (2), Lee (2)
2009: Raji (1), Matthews (1)

So far we know that Brohm was a bust. Murphy and almost certainly Harrell didn't work out because of injuries. Lee seems to be a good bet to bust or to be unable to stay healthy, or both. Rodgers and Jennings are stars and maybe even more. Matthews seems to be headed in that direction too. Collins and Hawk are at least solid starters, potentially more.

I think TT's record on high draft picks is better than Wolf's. Only two busts in five drafts (I am not including Harrell) is a pretty good average.

BJack and Colledge would have to be listed on the "shaky" side of any evaluation. I'd say we draft about as well as most other teams, but...

We rarely sign marquee free agents. We also don't go after many street free agents. Out whole building philosophy is thru the draft. With that in mind, we need to hit on a few more players and starters from our drafting. We also cut a 3rd rounder who went from starter to the streets in one week (Rouse).

If our philosophy is build thru the draft, we need to draft better.

[KYPack]

[Footnote: I had Andre Woodson on my draft list. He might be an interesting replacement.]

Andre Woodson is the poor man's Vince Young. A big guy with a cannon arm who can run and make plays. He also knows very little of how to play QB. He needs a couple more years of education and he may well never play regularly in the NFL.

I really thought Brohm would make it big in the NFL. He is the son of a coach, his brother was an NFL QB. He lead Louisville to national prominence, with last second wins and clutch performances. If he had left as a junior, he may well have been a top ten pick.

He played in a multiple offense in college and put up big numbers. Louisville featured a passing attack with many slants and crosses, just like GB. Except it was different. Brohm made many of his passes off quick rollouts and other schemes that had him on the move. In the pro's, he went into a shell. Many of the routes Brohm was expected to hit were from the pocket. Brohm from the pocket is a shell of Brohm throwing on a roll-out. The kid lost confidence and showed that his arm is strong when moving, but average from the pocket.

I really doubt he will ever make it, but if he does, a change of scenery is almost mandatory. Brohm needed to leave the scene of the crime.

[Maxie the Taxi]

[Footnote: I had Andre Woodson on my draft list. He might be an interesting replacement.]

Andre Woodson is the poor man's Vince Young. A big guy with a cannon arm who can run and make plays. He also knows very little of how to play QB. He needs a couple more years of education and he may well never play regularly in the NFL.

I really thought Brohm would make it big in the NFL. He is the son of a coach, his brother was an NFL QB. He lead Louisville to national prominence, with last second wins and clutch performances. If he had left as a junior, he may well have been a top ten pick.

He played in a multiple offense in college and put up big numbers. Louisville featured a passing attack with many slants and crosses, just like GB. Except it was different. Brohm made many of his passes off quick rollouts and other schemes that had him on the move. In the pro's, he went into a shell. Many of the routes Brohm was expected to hit were from the pocket. Brohm from the pocket is a shell of Brohm throwing on a roll-out. The kid lost confidence and showed that his arm is strong when moving, but average from the pocket.

I really doubt he will ever make it, but if he does, a change of scenery is almost mandatory. Brohm needed to leave the scene of the crime.

I figured Woodson would be a project, that he could be kind of like Vince Young or Bobby Douglass. Our #3 QB probably isn't going to help us much with his arm or smarts anyway.

[KYPack]

Here is where I have a problem with Ted's philosphy. You build thru the draft. So you draft well and build your organization from within, right?

So the answer is always Kids, Kids, Kids, right?

Ah, no.

There are some jobs that veterans provide a much better answer than any kid.

Punters

Kickers

Back-up OL, and

Back-up QB. You do draft a kid that you teach and groom to be your starting QB. That kid is your 3d QB.

Your back-up QB? Doug Pederson, Mark Brunnell, Jon Kitna. Guys that know their stuff, can help the starter, work with the kiddie QB, and actually come into a game and lead the team.

We've been going along with our 3rd QB as the back-up for two years now. It's time to stop the madness, get a back-up QB and get real.

[Smidgeon]

We've been going along with our 3rd QB as the back-up for two years now. It's time to stop the madness, get a back-up QB and get real.

Except by now, that 3rd QB knows the system as well as anyone else out there. He is the 2nd QB now.

[sharpe1027]

BJack and Colledge would have to be listed on the "shaky" side of any evaluation. I'd say we draft about as well as most other teams, but...

We rarely sign marquee free agents. We also don't go after many street free agents. Out whole building philosophy is thru the draft. With that in mind, we need to hit on a few more players and starters from our drafting. We also cut a 3rd rounder who went from starter to the streets in one week (Rouse).

If our philosophy is build thru the draft, we need to draft better.

Honestly though, does any team but the Redskins actually sign "marquee" free agents more a couple times a decade, if that? TT dipped into FA and got the best player on the team from free agency along with a key piece (Woodson and Pickett). I think if there is a legit complaint to be had, it is the lack of signings for the mid-range guys. Chillar was one of those mid-range guys that worked out well.

[pbmax]

Here is where I have a problem with Ted's philosphy. You build thru the draft. So you draft well and build your organization from within, right?

So the answer is always Kids, Kids, Kids, right?

Ah, no.

There are some jobs that veterans provide a much better answer than any kid.

Punters

Kickers

Back-up OL, and

Back-up QB. You do draft a kid that you teach and groom to be your starting QB. That kid is your 3d QB.

Your back-up QB? Doug Pederson, Mark Brunnell, Jon Kitna. Guys that know their stuff, can help the starter, work with the kiddie QB, and actually come into a game and lead the team.

We've been going along with our 3rd QB as the back-up for two years now. It's time to stop the madness, get a back-up QB and get real.
Brunell was a kid too, at first, when he was GB's #2 under Holmgren. Number 3 was Detmer, who was barely a marginal starter.

And veteran OL backups are fine, but with the OL lucky to go 2 deep, if you have an older Vet starter and your backup is a vet (who by definition is worse and as old if not older) then you have nothing being groomed for the future on the OL.

So all the posters who can rattle off all the FAs Thompson didn't sign will cry for a UFA when that Vet starter is done. But you are now faced with needing a surefire win with a FA and no backup plan. Welcome to the Chicago Bears of 2009. How is that working for them?

Face it. For Left Tackles, you need to get lucky in the first two rounds. Or you will struggle and spend money like there is no tomorrow. And that is the only position on the line that can kill you almost single-handedly. I used to believe you could manufacture the rest out of draftees, retreads and smart signings. That doesn't seem to be working this year. Too many holes and its unclear whether talent or coaching will fix it first.

Problem is that it takes three years to know what you have sometimes with youth. Spitz was obvious early, so was Sitton. But Colledge kept making progress until this year when he has lapsed into all his old inconsistent habits. Barbre is still a cipher as is Breno. Lang looks like Sitton (everyone has him pegged as a starter) but do we really know?.

I think you need to have a stopgap or better vet at each position. Then youth, so that youth has time to show you what it will do of it isn't a surefire starter. We have no youth at LT with Clifton. Colledge is less than stopgap sometimes at LG, maybe Lang can play there eventually. Center was OK. RG has youth starter and a hodge-podge for a backup. Probably do-able. RT is old and inured vet with very uncertain youth.

I think Spitz getting hurt is keeping Colledge in the lineup. But we have two holes at tackle that Duke Preston wasn't going to help. Moll wasn't the answer. Packers need to be able to make a call on talent earlier than they are. That might be Campen and personnel's worst failure.

[KYPack]

We've been going along with our 3rd QB as the back-up for two years now. It's time to stop the madness, get a back-up QB and get real.

Except by now, that 3rd QB knows the system as well as anyone else out there. He is the 2nd QB now.

But you can't say he knows the job. Sure he's our back-up, but can he be an effective replacement for AR over a mulitple game stretch? Nobody knows, including one Ted Thompson.

I don't want to turn this into the same 'ol anti-TT-pro-TT rant thread, but in some areas, Thompson's approach has not been sound and time has proven that.

His overall philosophy is fine, but in some areas, his failure to add quality players by his rigid approach is biting us in the ass.

[get louder at lambeau]

We've been going along with our 3rd QB as the back-up for two years now. It's time to stop the madness, get a back-up QB and get real.

Except by now, that 3rd QB knows the system as well as anyone else out there. He is the 2nd QB now.

But you can't say he knows the job. Sure he's our back-up, but can he be an effective replacement for AR over a mulitple game stretch? Nobody knows, including one Ted Thompson.

You can't honestly say that any realistically available vet backup would be an effective replacement for AR over a multiple game stretch either. Everyone makes it sound so easy, like there are capable QBs out there just dying for a backup spot behind a franchise QB. There aren't. Even Brohm just took a better offer.

[Smidgeon]

We've been going along with our 3rd QB as the back-up for two years now. It's time to stop the madness, get a back-up QB and get real.

Except by now, that 3rd QB knows the system as well as anyone else out there. He is the 2nd QB now.

But you can't say he knows the job. Sure he's our back-up, but can he be an effective replacement for AR over a mulitple game stretch? Nobody knows, including one Ted Thompson.

I don't want to turn this into the same 'ol anti-TT-pro-TT rant thread, but in some areas, Thompson's approach has not been sound and time has proven that.

His overall philosophy is fine, but in some areas, his failure to add quality players by his rigid approach is biting us in the ass.

I didn't say he could be an effective replacement for AR over a multiple game stretch by any stretch of the imagination. I'm saying that for being in GB's system for 2 years now, he knows GB's offensive scheme better than a FA would. Also, I think if you're confident a veteran FA QB who wasn't good enough to win a starting position in another city would be able to effectively fill in for any significant stretch of time, then you'd be in for a rude surprise. I wouldn't be shocked at all if all (or the vast majority) of the successful backup QBs who took over and finished a year or several stretches of games successfully were young QBs with their first real opportunity. In which case, they either become "the QB of the future" (Kolb), are traded to another team (Cassel), or take over starting immediately (a la Favre). I don't have data on that--it's speculation--but I think "veteran" QBs are overrated when it comes to their ability to do more than play one or two effective games.

[rbaloha1]

Disappointed. The Packers attempted to match. Good opportunity for BB. Chance to be a decent pro qb. I also felt BB would be a good pro qb.

[KYPack]

We've been going along with our 3rd QB as the back-up for two years now. It's time to stop the madness, get a back-up QB and get real.

Except by now, that 3rd QB knows the system as well as anyone else out there. He is the 2nd QB now.

But you can't say he knows the job. Sure he's our back-up, but can he be an effective replacement for AR over a mulitple game stretch? Nobody knows, including one Ted Thompson.

I don't want to turn this into the same 'ol anti-TT-pro-TT rant thread, but in some areas, Thompson's approach has not been sound and time has proven that.

His overall philosophy is fine, but in some areas, his failure to add quality players by his rigid approach is biting us in the ass.

I didn't say he could be an effective replacement for AR over a multiple game stretch by any stretch of the imagination. I'm saying that for being in GB's system for 2 years now, he knows GB's offensive scheme better than a FA would. Also, I think if you're confident a veteran FA QB who wasn't good enough to win a starting position in another city would be able to effectively fill in for any significant stretch of time, then you'd be in for a rude surprise. I wouldn't be shocked at all if all (or the vast majority) of the successful backup QBs who took over and finished a year or several stretches of games successfully were young QBs with their first real opportunity. In which case, they either become "the QB of the future" (Kolb), are traded to another team (Cassel), or take over starting immediately (a la Favre). I don't have data on that--it's speculation--but I think "veteran" QBs are overrated when it comes to their ability to do more than play one or two effective games.

I tell ya a guy who can do that job and would have been a good fit here. There are several back-ups around, but people say hell no all the time for reasons I can't fathom. You want a guy like Kitna. Not only could he fill in for a stretch, He can help the team. Firstly he can be a mentor to the starter. helping him read the D and spotting places where some plays can work. He can also teach the young boys that are holding the clipboard. he did that for the Bengals and helped grow Carson Palmer from a green kid to one of the league's top QB's.

The way Thompson structured it, we had a starter and two green kids. Now we are down to one green kid who maybe can play and maybe can't. This is lame. We've had two years to come up with a better situation and we haven't done it.

That ain't hacking the program.

[Smidgeon]

We've been going along with our 3rd QB as the back-up for two years now. It's time to stop the madness, get a back-up QB and get real.

Except by now, that 3rd QB knows the system as well as anyone else out there. He is the 2nd QB now.

But you can't say he knows the job. Sure he's our back-up, but can he be an effective replacement for AR over a mulitple game stretch? Nobody knows, including one Ted Thompson.

I don't want to turn this into the same 'ol anti-TT-pro-TT rant thread, but in some areas, Thompson's approach has not been sound and time has proven that.

His overall philosophy is fine, but in some areas, his failure to add quality players by his rigid approach is biting us in the ass.

I didn't say he could be an effective replacement for AR over a multiple game stretch by any stretch of the imagination. I'm saying that for being in GB's system for 2 years now, he knows GB's offensive scheme better than a FA would. Also, I think if you're confident a veteran FA QB who wasn't good enough to win a starting position in another city would be able to effectively fill in for any significant stretch of time, then you'd be in for a rude surprise. I wouldn't be shocked at all if all (or the vast majority) of the successful backup QBs who took over and finished a year or several stretches of games successfully were young QBs with their first real opportunity. In which case, they either become "the QB of the future" (Kolb), are traded to another team (Cassel), or take over starting immediately (a la Favre). I don't have data on that--it's speculation--but I think "veteran" QBs are overrated when it comes to their ability to do more than play one or two effective games.

I tell ya a guy who can do that job and would have been a good fit here. There are several back-ups around, but people say hell no all the time for reasons I can't fathom. You want a guy like Kitna. Not only could he fill in for a stretch, He can help the team. Firstly he can be a mentor to the starter. helping him read the D and spotting places where some plays can work. He can also teach the young boys that are holding the clipboard. he did that for the Bengals and helped grow Carson Palmer from a green kid to one of the league's top QB's.

The way Thompson structured it, we had a starter and two green kids. Now we are down to one green kid who maybe can play and maybe can't. This is lame. We've had two years to come up with a better situation and we haven't done it.

That ain't hacking the program.

Personally, I think McCarthy is better than any veteran QB. He has a respectable roster of QBs he's trained up. Kitna can't provide anything that McCarthy isn't.

[KYPack]

McCarty is a great QB coach.

But the input of a coach and help from a teammate are two vastly different things.

McCarthy can't suit up and go in and play, for instance.

We need one of them guys.

[Smidgeon]

McCarty is a great QB coach.

But the input of a coach and help from a teammate are two vastly different things.

McCarthy can't suit up and go in and play, for instance.

We need one of them guys.

And how do you know Flynn isn't better than Kitna?

[Waldo]

His overall philosophy is fine, but in some areas, his failure to add quality players by his rigid approach is biting us in the ass.

It is the philosophy of the self sustaining system. It is biting us in the ass this season.

Unfortunately for impatient fans, Ted's approach can never yield results fast enough.

Wolf's system was not sustainable. It is the same approach Mn is taking. Like a giant star, it is a short but bright lifetime. Sherman was left with the dregs of Wolf's approach. Face it, Wolf didn't exactly leave the best situation for Sherman.

Sometimes the way to win at poker is to push all your chips in the pot. Other times you slowly build your pile until it dwarfs the rest.

When you look at the team building model that Ted is using, the teams that do it that way, you have to go back to the 90's to see the establishment of their current successes. Indy, Pit, and Philly have been essentially doing it this way for more than 10 years. Rare, but occasional free agent acquisitions, drafting their team, and being ruthless with 3rd contracts, only giving them out in the rarest of rarest circumstances unless at bargain basement prices at a position devoid of talent. They each are more than a playing career past the establishment of the system. Each always has holes that they get around to eventually, much too slow for fans tastes typically.

We are one of the most pilfered teams out there. Our cuts become treasure. We are always near the tops yearly in # of players claimed after camp cuts, our PS is regularly raided, and midseason cuts tend to be quickly claimed. Other teams GM's obviously have a ton of respect for the players that Ted brings to the Packers. Hardly any of his draft picks in his time in GB aren't currently on an active NFL roster. Two other teams that stand out like that as well are Indy and Pit, their ex-players that simply weren't good enough for them at their price are everywhere.

Ted's approach is getting close (2-3 years). The gap has to cycle into the 3rd contract area. The only Sherman players (the gap) that stand a chance at a 3rd contract are Barnett and Jenkins. By then the Wolf era will be gone, and Teds first 4-5 years will be in their prime, the next generation of kids will be coming in, with a younger, but very experienced, veteran core.

It took Pit almost 15 years to get a SB trophy using this approach, and 10 years for Indy. Philly has been at it 10+ years and they still haven't made it.

[Smidgeon]

It took Pit almost 15 years to get a SB trophy using this approach, and 10 years for Indy. Philly has been at it 10+ years and they still haven't made it.

Nice post. Reinforces the faith I have that patience will pay off.

Continual prominence will be nice. I prefer that. Quick question: those dynasties all have their share of continual Pro-Bowlers and potential HOFers. Who on the Packers has the potential to reach that level? I was thinking about that when I thought back to the Super Bowl team of '96. Except for Favre and White, I'm not sure another player will make the HOF (am I missing someone obvious?). The dynasties of the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 00s all have three, four, or more players in the HOF. Does GB have anyone on their roster with the potential to rise? Or are we still waiting for someone(s) special? (Personally, I think AR has that potential, and maybe our two 1st round picks. Maybe.)

[Waldo]

Longevity is a huge part of the equation for the hall, as is success.

It is a chicken/egg question in reference to Superbowls. Do the HOF players create the SB, or does the SB create the HOF players?

Woodson is playing at a HOF level. But he really needs a ring to have a chance. He earns a ring and plays a huge role in getting it, chances are he's got a shot.

SB's create the QB's chances as much as anything else. A ring is worth a couple MVP's. Two rings for a starting QB almost assures a bust in Canton.

Clay's father's career, with a couple of rings, and he's probably a HOF player. A career on the Browns, playing just as good, no dice.

Most of our players are too young to even approach the question.

[pbmax]

It took Pit almost 15 years to get a SB trophy using this approach, and 10 years for Indy. Philly has been at it 10+ years and they still haven't made it.

Nice post. Reinforces the faith I have that patience will pay off.

Continual prominence will be nice. I prefer that. Quick question: those dynasties all have their share of continual Pro-Bowlers and potential HOFers. Who on the Packers has the potential to reach that level? I was thinking about that when I thought back to the Super Bowl team of '96. Except for Favre and White, I'm not sure another player will make the HOF (am I missing someone obvious?). The dynasties of the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 00s all have three, four, or more players in the HOF. Does GB have anyone on their roster with the potential to rise? Or are we still waiting for someone(s) special? (Personally, I think AR has that potential, and maybe our two 1st round picks. Maybe.)
Waldo, no one has a 15 or even 10 year plan. Pittsburgh made the Super Bowl in '95 versus the Boys. Cowher was hired in 1992. Colts were perennially in the playoffs after 1999. Polian was hired at the end of the 1997 season. Those franchises were patient because there was success, if not Super Bowls, right away. Eagles same way with Reid. Hired in 1999, and after his first year, playoffs five straight years. No one expects the Patriots, but with Rodgers, he doesn't have the excuse most GMs do.

I like his approach, but we are taking the longer road to the playoffs.

[mraynrand]

Wolf's system was not sustainable. It is the same approach Mn is taking. Like a giant star, it is a short but bright lifetime. Sherman was left with the dregs of Wolf's approach. Face it, Wolf didn't exactly leave the best situation for Sherman.


If Wolf hadn't had that absolutely stellar GM year in 2000, the Packers would have been in the shit in 2001 or 2002 instead of 2005. But he was much better at the pro-player personnel aspect than drafting. But dealing for other teams' players ultimately leaves your roster pretty thin.

[mission]

We've already signed the replacement QB.

Mike Reily from Central Washington via Pittsburgh's PS ...

Highly productive college career, good size, great upside...

source: another Packer forum :X

[Waldo]

It took Pit almost 15 years to get a SB trophy using this approach, and 10 years for Indy. Philly has been at it 10+ years and they still haven't made it.

Nice post. Reinforces the faith I have that patience will pay off.

Continual prominence will be nice. I prefer that. Quick question: those dynasties all have their share of continual Pro-Bowlers and potential HOFers. Who on the Packers has the potential to reach that level? I was thinking about that when I thought back to the Super Bowl team of '96. Except for Favre and White, I'm not sure another player will make the HOF (am I missing someone obvious?). The dynasties of the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 00s all have three, four, or more players in the HOF. Does GB have anyone on their roster with the potential to rise? Or are we still waiting for someone(s) special? (Personally, I think AR has that potential, and maybe our two 1st round picks. Maybe.)
Waldo, no one has a 15 or even 10 year plan. Pittsburgh made the Super Bowl in '95 versus the Boys. Cowher was hired in 1992. Colts were perennially in the playoffs after 1999. Polian was hired at the end of the 1997 season. Those franchises were patient because there was success, if not Super Bowls, right away. Eagles same way with Reid. Hired in 1999, and after his first year, playoffs five straight years. No one expects the Patriots, but with Rodgers, he doesn't have the excuse most GMs do.

I like his approach, but we are taking the longer road to the playoffs.

Did we not have early success? I seem to recall a pass in overtime that still make me wince.

Are we out of the playoffs this year? By my reckoning we're tied for a WC spot with 7 weeks to go. Certainly in the mix.

Polian already had 2 young HOF players on the roster when he got there. The cupboard looked bare at the time, but the existing roster quickly blossomed.

I believe that Pit was much the same way.

For Philly, just like Indy, the most important player, the QB, came early.

Brett was a fairly major early roster building impediment. While Mn shed all their contracts and pushed money forward, we had some leftover giants, especially Brett, that ensured a much slower building process. I wasn't until this season that Mn passed GB in the 3 big money areas, OL, DL, and QB. Mn's team of today was paid for during their lean years a couple years ago. They were lean for us also, but our team also cost 20-30M more per year than Mn's, the cumulative effect of a few years of all that pushing forward and frontloading vs our pay as you go is the reason that Mn has the concentration of talent they have today

[Lurker64]

Brohm's Practice Squad spot was filled by former Central Washington QB Mike Reilly, who was signed as a UDFA by Pittsburgh. Apparently he's got a marginal arm, but he's big and athletic. Prior to the draft, Ron Jaworski said about Reilly: "I just saw an NFL quarterback. This is a guy who has (Tom) Brady-like attributes."

No word on Jake Allen's roster spot.

[Partial]

Waldo, here are some snippets.

Bill Cowher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cowher)


In Cowher’s 15 seasons, the Steelers captured eight division titles, earned ten postseason playoff berths, played in 21 playoff games, advanced to six AFC Championship games and made two Super Bowl appearances. He is one of only six coaches in NFL history to claim at least seven division titles.

Sure, they did the things you said, but they also had a ton of talent throughout the Cowher years and have had continued success under Tomlin. I don't think you can look at our time since TT has been here and say it's comparable or there is any indication we'll get to that level.



Eagles:

The Eagles have been to 5 conference championships in 9 years and the divisional round of the playoffs or better 6 times. All signs do not point to replicating this success.


What say you?

[retailguy]

McCarty is a great QB coach.

But the input of a coach and help from a teammate are two vastly different things.

McCarthy can't suit up and go in and play, for instance.

We need one of them guys.

Welcome to the dark side KY.

Edit - Ah screw it. It isn't worth it.

[Waldo]

Waldo, here are some snippets.

Bill Cowher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cowher)


In Cowher’s 15 seasons, the Steelers captured eight division titles, earned ten postseason playoff berths, played in 21 playoff games, advanced to six AFC Championship games and made two Super Bowl appearances. He is one of only six coaches in NFL history to claim at least seven division titles.

Sure, they did the things you said, but they also had a ton of talent throughout the Cowher years and have had continued success under Tomlin. I don't think you can look at our time since TT has been here and say it's comparable or there is any indication we'll get to that level.



Eagles:

The Eagles have been to 5 conference championships in 9 years and the divisional round of the playoffs or better 6 times. All signs do not point to replicating this success.


What say you?

I understand the history quite well.

I'm not nearly as down on our roster as you are you know. We can hang with and beat any team in the NFL.

We dump our crappy DC, and add a couple of rookies, and now our defense is a top 5 unit? Which was the problem, talent or coaching? Sanders NEVER had these guys playing this good, and they are still learning the scheme.

A team with a legit QB is a legit threat to win any game it plays.

We have the combination that leads to a lot of wins, Explosive passing, useable running game, legit QB, shutdown defense.

[Smidgeon]

Most of our players are too young to even approach the question.

Yeah. That's what I was thinking; I knew the question was premature. But I thought I'd ask your opinion anyway.

[pbmax]

Did we not have early success? I seem to recall a pass in overtime that still make me wince.

Are we out of the playoffs this year? By my reckoning we're tied for a WC spot with 7 weeks to go. Certainly in the mix.

Polian already had 2 young HOF players on the roster when he got there. The cupboard looked bare at the time, but the existing roster quickly blossomed.

I believe that Pit was much the same way.

For Philly, just like Indy, the most important player, the QB, came early.

Brett was a fairly major early roster building impediment. While Mn shed all their contracts and pushed money forward, we had some leftover giants, especially Brett, that ensured a much slower building process. I wasn't until this season that Mn passed GB in the 3 big money areas, OL, DL, and QB. Mn's team of today was paid for during their lean years a couple years ago. They were lean for us also, but our team also cost 20-30M more per year than Mn's, the cumulative effect of a few years of all that pushing forward and frontloading vs our pay as you go is the reason that Mn has the concentration of talent they have today
Thompson so far is 1 for 4 playoff berth wise.
Reid was 3 for 4 (4 for 5).
Cowher 4 for 4 (5 for 5).
Polian 2 for 4 (3 for 5).
Belichick 2 for 4 (3 of 5).
Record wise it isn't that close.

Now as you point out, there are differences. Cowher's team wasn't a bare cupboard. They had Lloyd, Nickerson, Tunch Ilkin, Dermotti Dawson, Yancey Thigpen, Jeff Graham, Carnell Lake and Rod Woodson (and Darren Perry!). They had their QB, Neil O'Donnell though he was not a difference maker unless your name is Larry Brown. A good deal of young talent. There is a reason Cowher went four for four.

Colts before Polian had Faulk, Harrison, Ken Dilger, Marcus Pollard. Also Tony Mandarich! and Ellis Johnson, the only D player I recognize as more than average. Polian hit the jackpot with the first pick and got Manning, which made all those pieces on offense look even better.

Eagles with Reid started by drafting McNabb who started 6 games, Doug Pederson got the other nine. They had Tra Thomas and Jermane Mayberry on the line and Duce Staley in the backfield. Hollis Thomas on defense along with Troy Vincent, Bobby Taylor, Brian Dawkins and William Thomas at LB. Mamula had 8.5 sacks.

Belichick kept Bledsoe, Faulk, Glenn, Troy Brown, Bruce Armstrong (who was near the end) and the not quite venerable Joe Andruzzi. He had McGinest, Ted Johnson and Bruschi on defense along with Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy (and Tebuckey Jones). He drafted a Hall of Famer in the 6th round the next year.

Thompson may have pulled off the toughest stunt of them all by drafting one very good QB WHILE Having a Hall of Famer around. This doesn't happen often. He also drafts Nick Collins. I should mention that his cap situation is tough, but I don't want to dwell on it since I cannot comment in an informed manner on the other teams. But the cap does cost him 2 of his 4 best O lineman though Rivera was not long for his pro career at this point. Cost cutting put Sharper on the waiver wire. That left him with Favre, Green, Driver, Henderson, Clifton, Tauscher and Flanagan on offense. On defense he has Kampman, Jackson and Jenkins along with Barnett and Al Harris (plus Grabby Smurf!).

Thompson's team mirrors Belichick and Reid most closely in that there is talent there but not a murderer's row. All are thin at crucial positions. Belichick completely remakes his roster with the great bargain basement FA signing in 2001 offseason and some guy named Brady. Thompson signs 3 FAs, picks a new coach and has to rebuild the offensive line prior to his second season. Reid already has a defense and uses McNabb, Runyan, and new receivers to perk up the offense. Corey Simon helps on D.

None of these teams are flawless. NE and Eagles are not good rushing teams. The Packers have a major issue at O line though Favre, Green and the tackles perhaps mask this. Even with Woodson, the Packer defense is plagued by communication issues last seen under Slowik and Kurt Schottenheimer.

Given how Thompson redid his cap in one season and how well he resisted serious pressure from his HOF QB to deviate from his plan, I am not sure how much Favre hindered the development or the accumulation of talent. Other than possibly Corey Williams, few have been lost that were missed in a meaningful way and Thompson did not spend anymore money once Favre's contract was off the books.

There is no good reason the tackle position is where it is and the O line in general is a continuing problem. Lang might solve one spot, but that leaves 2 positions unsettled. I think we are a year behind with this group. I am not troubled elsewhere. After this exercise, I am again leaning to hiring Larry Beightol as a "consultant".

[get louder at lambeau]

Did we not have early success? I seem to recall a pass in overtime that still make me wince.

Are we out of the playoffs this year? By my reckoning we're tied for a WC spot with 7 weeks to go. Certainly in the mix.

Polian already had 2 young HOF players on the roster when he got there. The cupboard looked bare at the time, but the existing roster quickly blossomed.

I believe that Pit was much the same way.

For Philly, just like Indy, the most important player, the QB, came early.

Brett was a fairly major early roster building impediment. While Mn shed all their contracts and pushed money forward, we had some leftover giants, especially Brett, that ensured a much slower building process. I wasn't until this season that Mn passed GB in the 3 big money areas, OL, DL, and QB. Mn's team of today was paid for during their lean years a couple years ago. They were lean for us also, but our team also cost 20-30M more per year than Mn's, the cumulative effect of a few years of all that pushing forward and frontloading vs our pay as you go is the reason that Mn has the concentration of talent they have today
Thompson so far is 1 for 4 playoff berth wise.
Reid was 3 for 4 (4 for 5).
Cowher 4 for 4 (5 for 5).
Polian 2 for 4 (3 for 5).
Belichick 2 for 4 (3 of 5).
Record wise it isn't that close.

Now as you point out, there are differences. Cowher's team wasn't a bare cupboard. They had Lloyd, Nickerson, Tunch Ilkin, Dermotti Dawson, Yancey Thigpen, Jeff Graham, Carnell Lake and Rod Woodson (and Darren Perry!). They had their QB, Neil O'Donnell though he was not a difference maker unless your name is Larry Brown. A good deal of young talent. There is a reason Cowher went four for four.

Colts before Polian had Faulk, Harrison, Ken Dilger, Marcus Pollard. Also Tony Mandarich! and Ellis Johnson, the only D player I recognize as more than average. Polian hit the jackpot with the first pick and got Manning, which made all those pieces on offense look even better.

Eagles with Reid started by drafting McNabb who started 6 games, Doug Pederson got the other nine. They had Tra Thomas and Jermane Mayberry on the line and Duce Staley in the backfield. Hollis Thomas on defense along with Troy Vincent, Bobby Taylor, Brian Dawkins and William Thomas at LB. Mamula had 8.5 sacks.

Belichick kept Bledsoe, Faulk, Glenn, Troy Brown, Bruce Armstrong (who was near the end) and the not quite venerable Joe Andruzzi. He had McGinest, Ted Johnson and Bruschi on defense along with Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy (and Tebuckey Jones). He drafted a Hall of Famer in the 6th round the next year.

Thompson may have pulled off the toughest stunt of them all by drafting one very good QB WHILE Having a Hall of Famer around. This doesn't happen often. He also drafts Nick Collins. I should mention that his cap situation is tough, but I don't want to dwell on it since I cannot comment in an informed manner on the other teams. But the cap does cost him 2 of his 4 best O lineman though Rivera was not long for his pro career at this point. Cost cutting put Sharper on the waiver wire. That left him with Favre, Green, Driver, Henderson, Clifton, Tauscher and Flanagan on offense. On defense he has Kampman, Jackson and Jenkins along with Barnett and Al Harris (plus Grabby Smurf!).

Thompson's team mirrors Belichick and Reid most closely in that there is talent there but not a murderer's row. All are thin at crucial positions. Belichick completely remakes his roster with the great bargain basement FA signing in 2001 offseason and some guy named Brady. Thompson signs 3 FAs, picks a new coach and has to rebuild the offensive line prior to his second season. Reid already has a defense and uses McNabb, Runyan, and new receivers to perk up the offense. Corey Simon helps on D.

None of these teams are flawless. NE and Eagles are not good rushing teams. The Packers have a major issue at O line though Favre, Green and the tackles perhaps mask this. Even with Woodson, the Packer defense is plagued by communication issues last seen under Slowik and Kurt Schottenheimer.

Given how Thompson redid his cap in one season and how well he resisted serious pressure from his HOF QB to deviate from his plan, I am not sure how much Favre hindered the development or the accumulation of talent. Other than possibly Corey Williams, few have been lost that were missed in a meaningful way and Thompson did not spend anymore money once Favre's contract was off the books.

There is no good reason the tackle position is where it is and the O line in general is a continuing problem. Lang might solve one spot, but that leaves 2 positions unsettled. I think we are a year behind with this group. I am not troubled elsewhere. After this exercise, I am again leaning to hiring Larry Beightol as a "consultant".

Wow pb. Great stuff. :worship:

[KYPack]

That's some vicious work, PB.

My big concern is the OLine. The Kids theory is a good basis to begin from. but there are several ways to add talent and TT is ignoring one of 'em.

I'll either post my thoughts in this thread or start one detailing another team that has went far beyond ours in Oline talent and done it far differently.

Once again, PB that's some nice stuff

[mraynrand]

This idea just occurred to me the other day and I posted it in another thread. It seems to me that a really bold offseason move would have been to trade Kampman for some Oline talent and/or an experienced 3-4 OLB or maybe some picks. But given Kamp is a bit of a fish out of water, you'd think they coulda got something for him from a team that needed a 4-3 end. It would have been crazy/bold, and would have required a lot of confidence in your new scheme, but why not?

[Fritz]

It also would have required knowing for sure that your o-line talent was going to suck. At the time, I believe that TT and MM felt that Barbre was going to come into his own, Spitz and Colledge were finally "there", Sitton soon would be, and Clifton, with a developing young guy (Meredith) behind him (not as backup but as future) would be fine.

The calculus seems to have beeen wrong. Colledge had gone backward, it seems, Spitz is hurt, Barbe is hurting the team, and Clifton - after supposedly being healthier than he has been in a long time - has been on and off the field.

Add that to the idea that the staff and many others felt not only could Kampman make the switch, the Packers had no playmaker to put there, and it would've been more than bold to trade him at that time.

[Waldo]

Given how Thompson redid his cap in one season and how well he resisted serious pressure from his HOF QB to deviate from his plan, I am not sure how much Favre hindered the development or the accumulation of talent. Other than possibly Corey Williams, few have been lost that were missed in a meaningful way and Thompson did not spend anymore money once Favre's contract was off the books.

Offseasons are just a wee bit different when you've got 35M in cap space that you pushed forward that didn't need to be spent on your pouty QB that threw ints when it mattered.

35M gets you Jared Allen @ 3M/yr for 5 years.

That kind of cap space goes a LONG way. We had to pay off Favre's ridiculous contract, KGB's ridiculous contract, Clifton's ridiculous contract, etc..., over the 3 year span 2005 to 2007, those 3 players cost upwards of 80M in cap space. Fill those spots with 3 first round picks, Rodgers, and two others over a 3 year span, and you've got 25M in cap expenses, at most, leaving 50-60M to use on the FA market and to frontload any extensions, pushing the money forward.

One of the tenets of rebuilding is to shed the big ones. Veterans are not a problem, as long as they are not expensive. Expensive veterans are unacceptable. Ted was really left with what was a 2-3 year period just to shed the contracts. And Favre complicated it all, he'd bitch to the media at any moment about not trying to win. And of course his status made him more important than the administration trying to rebuild the team, hell braindead "fans" would burn down Lambeau if Lord Favre thought it would help win.

This is exactly the model Mn used. They dumped their QB. They dumped their expensive WR. Anybody overly expensive, buh bye. They kept a few vets around, cheepies like the C, all extra moneies were pushed forward, all new contracts were heavily frontloaded. They bought every good FA they could get their hands on, because, they could afford it. They did the shed period correctly. Favre and his tears of Moss wouldn't allow it. The rebuilding period that Mn went through to reach their current stage could never have happened with old man. He'd complain way too much. For a while they were a team that analyzed by pay as you go was operating 30-40M+ under the cap, cooking the books to look like they were spending enough, really they used every trick in the book to push that cap space into the future, so to the cap they were spending a lot more than they actually were. Now they've got a few years saved up, they can operate well over the cap, which they are this year.

[pbmax]

Jason Wilde was on Milwaukee radio today making the trade Kampman case and his theory is that his value is no worse than last offseason. AK may still be a man out of position on this team and that is no different than March or August prior to this season. He also felt that is was not within Kampman's personality to demand a trade or act publicly in a way to force one. No news on whether it was considered by the team.

Also one point that goes in Waldo's favor. Thompson's QB pick, which seems to be almost as charmed as Reid, Polian and Belichick's QB picks did have to sit, which probably helped Rodgers in the long run but did prolong the learning curve. However, perhaps more importantly, Thompson did not have his choice at Head Coach for his first year. That might be part of the line equation here. Sherman would have wanted power guys and at least a one vet to replace essentially two Pro Bowl guards. That might explain Adrian Klemm instead of an earlier draft pick.

And its probably no coincidence that all these teams acquired very good young QBs in short order. In fact, Pittsburgh makes the best case for the importance of the position, as they were knocking on the door without getting a SB win until Roethlisberger came along. The Neil O'Donnell's of the world can only do so much. And no, I can't explain Jeff Hostetler or Mark Rypien either.

[pbmax]

Given how Thompson redid his cap in one season and how well he resisted serious pressure from his HOF QB to deviate from his plan, I am not sure how much Favre hindered the development or the accumulation of talent. Other than possibly Corey Williams, few have been lost that were missed in a meaningful way and Thompson did not spend anymore money once Favre's contract was off the books.

Offseasons are just a wee bit different when you've got 35M in cap space that you pushed forward that didn't need to be spent on your pouty QB that threw ints when it mattered.

35M gets you Jared Allen @ 3M/yr for 5 years.

That kind of cap space goes a LONG way. We had to pay off Favre's ridiculous contract, KGB's ridiculous contract, Clifton's ridiculous contract, etc..., over the 3 year span 2005 to 2007, those 3 players cost upwards of 80M in cap space.
Sure. Minnesota cleaned house years earlier, when it was clear Moss and Culpepper weren't going to get it done. But neither was producing according to their contract. KGB didn't either, but Favre and Clifton were. Do you have the cap numbers for Favre, Clifton and KGB for 05-07? I don't see $27 million per year.

Also, if Thompson had wanted them gone, there was no cap reason any of the three couldn't have been released. Each had a base salary that would have cleared the cap acceleration after cutting them. So the contracts were no impediment.

Thompson did sign FAs in 2006 and front loaded them. Subsequently, he could have done a blockbuster in any year. He also never asked KGB to take a paycut even after he lost his starting and full-time gig. If we had a replacement for LT or were planning on doing FA for one, Clifton could have been released. I am not seeing an impediment except for the Face of the Franchise. Even he would have been mollified if Clifton was being replaced with someone younger and better.

[mngolf19]

Now they've got a few years saved up, they can operate well over the cap, which they are this year.

Vikes are not over the cap. I've seen numbers of approx $15-18M avail for next year(assuming a similar cap). Also, they are still pushing money forward, they did still last year and are planning to this year. Expect to hear extensions for a Henderson or Leber in late Dec.

[Bretsky]

another blown high draft pick

2005: Rodgers (1), Collins (2), Murphy (2)
2006: Hawk (1), Colledge (2), Jennings (2)
2007: Harrell (1), Jackson (2)
2008: Nelson (2), Brohm (2), Lee (2)
2009: Raji (1), Matthews (1)

So far we know that Brohm was a bust. Murphy and almost certainly Harrell didn't work out because of injuries. Lee seems to be a good bet to bust or to be unable to stay healthy, or both. Rodgers and Jennings are stars and maybe even more. Matthews seems to be headed in that direction too. Collins and Hawk are at least solid starters, potentially more.

I think TT's record on high draft picks is better than Wolf's. Only two busts in five drafts (I am not including Harrell) is a pretty good average.


We drafted an Harrell knowing he had injury concerns. I'd undoubtedly considerer him a bust. Lee maybe and Brosh deserve the spots too. Nelson was drafted ahead of better WR's. Jackson IMO too high.

With all that said I'd agree so far TT's record is decent and better than Wolf's on high picks. He's a good drafter.....not good enough to ingore free agency the last few years though :lol:

[Bretsky]

another blown high draft pick

2005: Rodgers (1), Collins (2), Murphy (2)
2006: Hawk (1), Colledge (2), Jennings (2)
2007: Harrell (1), Jackson (2)
2008: Nelson (2), Brohm (2), Lee (2)
2009: Raji (1), Matthews (1)

So far we know that Brohm was a bust. Murphy and almost certainly Harrell didn't work out because of injuries. Lee seems to be a good bet to bust or to be unable to stay healthy, or both. Rodgers and Jennings are stars and maybe even more. Matthews seems to be headed in that direction too. Collins and Hawk are at least solid starters, potentially more.

I think TT's record on high draft picks is better than Wolf's. Only two busts in five drafts (I am not including Harrell) is a pretty good average.

BJack and Colledge would have to be listed on the "shaky" side of any evaluation. I'd say we draft about as well as most other teams, but...

We rarely sign marquee free agents. We also don't go after many street free agents. Out whole building philosophy is thru the draft. With that in mind, we need to hit on a few more players and starters from our drafting. We also cut a 3rd rounder who went from starter to the streets in one week (Rouse).

If our philosophy is build thru the draft, we need to draft better.


:knll: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap:

[pbmax]

Now they've got a few years saved up, they can operate well over the cap, which they are this year.

Vikes are not over the cap. I've seen numbers of approx $15-18M avail for next year(assuming a similar cap). Also, they are still pushing money forward, they did still last year and are planning to this year. Expect to hear extensions for a Henderson or Leber in late Dec.
Waldo means that a substantial portion of the cap money available to the Vikings to spend this year came from previous years pushing forward unspent cap money. He is not saying the Vikings are over the cap in the strict CBA sense.

So when the Vikings or Packers sign the punter to a $4 million dollar bonus that will payout if he will participates in 20% of the offensive snaps, it counts against the cap as a Likely To Be Earned Incentive THIS YEAR. When the punter invariably does not participate in 20% of the offensive snaps, that $4 million dollar cap charge gets refunded into NEXT year's cap. This forwarded money, accumulated over several years, is what Waldo believes made the Jared Allen signing possible. The Eagles and Vikings were the earliest adopters of this tactic as a regular maneuver.

[pbmax]

another blown high draft pick

2005: Rodgers (1), Collins (2), Murphy (2)
2006: Hawk (1), Colledge (2), Jennings (2)
2007: Harrell (1), Jackson (2)
2008: Nelson (2), Brohm (2), Lee (2)
2009: Raji (1), Matthews (1)

So far we know that Brohm was a bust. Murphy and almost certainly Harrell didn't work out because of injuries. Lee seems to be a good bet to bust or to be unable to stay healthy, or both. Rodgers and Jennings are stars and maybe even more. Matthews seems to be headed in that direction too. Collins and Hawk are at least solid starters, potentially more.

I think TT's record on high draft picks is better than Wolf's. Only two busts in five drafts (I am not including Harrell) is a pretty good average.


We drafted an Harrell knowing he had injury concerns. I'd undoubtedly considerer him a bust. Lee maybe and Brosh deserve the spots too. Nelson was drafted ahead of better WR's. Jackson IMO too high.

With all that said I'd agree so far TT's record is decent and better than Wolf's on high picks. He's a good drafter.....not good enough to ingore free agency the last few years though :lol:
Come on Bretsky, its fine to consider Harrell a bust. But don't tell us that bicep and ankle injuries are precursors to back troubles.

[retailguy]

But don't tell us that bicep and ankle injuries are precursors to back troubles.

Not precursors to back trouble, but warnings that the guy couldn't stay healthy. He played one complete college year, was banged up the rest of them. You can't predict back trouble, but there were warnings PB, significant warnings...

[Partial]

Now they've got a few years saved up, they can operate well over the cap, which they are this year.

Vikes are not over the cap. I've seen numbers of approx $15-18M avail for next year(assuming a similar cap). Also, they are still pushing money forward, they did still last year and are planning to this year. Expect to hear extensions for a Henderson or Leber in late Dec.
Waldo means that a substantial portion of the cap money available to the Vikings to spend this year came from previous years pushing forward unspent cap money. He is not saying the Vikings are over the cap in the strict CBA sense.

So when the Vikings or Packers sign the punter to a $4 million dollar bonus that will payout if he will participates in 20% of the offensive snaps, it counts against the cap as a Likely To Be Earned Incentive THIS YEAR. When the punter invariably does not participate in 20% of the offensive snaps, that $4 million dollar cap charge gets refunded into NEXT year's cap. This forwarded money, accumulated over several years, is what Waldo believes made the Jared Allen signing possible. The Eagles and Vikings were the earliest adopters of this tactic as a regular maneuver.

So they have 10 mil in cap room, sign this punter to that contract, in theory they would have 14 mil the next year?

BTW, PB you're like the all-knowing grandfather of the forum. Just a wise mofo. I wouldn't mess with you.

[pbmax]

Now they've got a few years saved up, they can operate well over the cap, which they are this year.

Vikes are not over the cap. I've seen numbers of approx $15-18M avail for next year(assuming a similar cap). Also, they are still pushing money forward, they did still last year and are planning to this year. Expect to hear extensions for a Henderson or Leber in late Dec.
Waldo means that a substantial portion of the cap money available to the Vikings to spend this year came from previous years pushing forward unspent cap money. He is not saying the Vikings are over the cap in the strict CBA sense.

So when the Vikings or Packers sign the punter to a $4 million dollar bonus that will payout if he will participates in 20% of the offensive snaps, it counts against the cap as a Likely To Be Earned Incentive THIS YEAR. When the punter invariably does not participate in 20% of the offensive snaps, that $4 million dollar cap charge gets refunded into NEXT year's cap. This forwarded money, accumulated over several years, is what Waldo believes made the Jared Allen signing possible. The Eagles and Vikings were the earliest adopters of this tactic as a regular maneuver.

So they have 10 mil in cap room, sign this punter to that contract, in theory they would have 14 mil the next year?

BTW, PB you're like the all-knowing grandfather of the forum. Just a wise mofo. I wouldn't mess with you.
Yes, but its over two years. in Year one they sign the punter to the incentive and reduce their cap number (usually in November/early December) from $5 million to $1 million., Money they would not have used anyway. Then in year 2, where you expected $10 million in cap room, after LTBE (likely to be earned) incentives are calculated, they get back the $4 mill for a total of $14 million in space in Year 2.

And that is very kind of you Partial, but if I know anything of significance, its likely been explained to me on this forum. If we could all keep from pissing each other off for a while, you would all be surprised at what you learn.

For instance, I think Waldo has me on a point of logic. If the Packers committed to total rebuilding on the fly in 2005 and had dumped some combo (or renegotiated) Favre, KGB and Clifton around 2005 or 2006, they could have had even more substantial cap space to push into future years. And this may have been enough to buy the rare franchise player like Jared Allen. As a matter of logic, this could have been done.

Yet while the Vikings did something similar with Moss and Culpepper, Favre and Clifton were not under performing their contracts by much, if at all. Culpepper was injured and Moss was being Moss. And T2 never asked KGB to reduce his salary after he lost the starting job to Jenkins. This to me are signs that T2 never intended to operate this way. And he needed to come up with two other offensive line options in a non-Jared Allen manner.

[Smidgeon]

But don't tell us that bicep and ankle injuries are precursors to back troubles.

Not precursors to back trouble, but warnings that the guy couldn't stay healthy. He played one complete college year, was banged up the rest of them. You can't predict back trouble, but there were warnings PB, significant warnings...

Peterson had significant warnings in college too. If injuries had popped up with him, everyone would be saying "I told you so". Since Harrell's back is unrelated to his college injuries, don't even try to tell me "I told you so" because you didn't know. You had a guess. Kind of like teams and fans had a guess about Peterson. Well, that guess was right about Harrell and wrong about Peterson. But it doesn't mean the pick was a bust for that reason.

[Partial]

That said, don't you think they still could have afforded Allen? I never thought the money was an issue. I just thought they weren't interested in paying the large sum of money, the arsenal of picks, etc for a guy who missed 4 games of his last year in KC for partying too hard.

I get that it's an example, but the Pack have been in great shape financially. There is some monkey business with the cap that I don't understand, but I guess I don't see how it's super relevant given the amount of cap room we have currently.

To me, one of the reasons the rebuilding was kind of screwed up from the start was because Favre kept the team competitive outside of 2005 and limited their number of high draft picks. Guys like Peterson aren't available in the twenties.

To me, and I could be way off, the difference between the Pack and Vikings is we ended up with at best, so far, an above average player in Hawk when we had the shot to hit gold. They hit it out of the park and ended up with a super star with their shot in the top 10

[Zool]

Or maybe Peterson gets drafted by GB and gets a fluke injury in training camp. Gotta start looking forward instead of back.

[Partial]

Or maybe Peterson gets drafted by GB and gets a fluke injury in training camp. Gotta start looking forward instead of back.

Oh I'm looking forward. I think this years draft is shaping up to be very good. Clay Matthews is going to be a star.

[Packnut]

Waldo, here are some snippets.

Bill Cowher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cowher)


In Cowher’s 15 seasons, the Steelers captured eight division titles, earned ten postseason playoff berths, played in 21 playoff games, advanced to six AFC Championship games and made two Super Bowl appearances. He is one of only six coaches in NFL history to claim at least seven division titles.

Sure, they did the things you said, but they also had a ton of talent throughout the Cowher years and have had continued success under Tomlin. I don't think you can look at our time since TT has been here and say it's comparable or there is any indication we'll get to that level.



Eagles:

The Eagles have been to 5 conference championships in 9 years and the divisional round of the playoffs or better 6 times. All signs do not point to replicating this success.


What say you?

I understand the history quite well.

I'm not nearly as down on our roster as you are you know. We can hang with and beat any team in the NFL.

We dump our crappy DC, and add a couple of rookies, and now our defense is a top 5 unit? Which was the problem, talent or coaching? Sanders NEVER had these guys playing this good, and they are still learning the scheme.

A team with a legit QB is a legit threat to win any game it plays.

We have the combination that leads to a lot of wins, Explosive passing, useable running game, legit QB, shutdown defense.

For someone with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to x's and o's, you sure post some dumb shit when it comes to defending Teddy. Comparing what this clown has down in GB to other organizations like Pitt and Indy is down-right STUPIDITY.

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB. In YEAR 5, Thompson's team DOES NIETHER. And please don't start quoting me stats cause we both know stats can be mis-leading. Let's base this on what we've seen this season.

Those other organizations did what Teddy cannot do and that is find medium round offensive linemen who are DEPENDABLE. In other words, they won't consistently blow guys off the line, but neither will they have brain cramps and forget their blocking assignment. Nor will they whiff on a block and stand by to watch their QB get drilled or forget the snap count on a key drive.

Also may-be you should go back year by year in those other organizations and look at picks in rounds 1-4 and see how many of those picks became wasted and compare it to Teddy's stellar record. I think you would be surprised.

One last thought. You paint a rosy picture for the next "cycle" as you call it. Your boy has done NOTHING to replace the most important position on the O-line. Clifton is at the end of his career and we have NO ONE who we can trust to protect the franchise QB's blind side. For someone as football smart as you, failing to recognize this EPIC Thompson blunder is just a damn shame...........

[pbmax]

Comparing what this clown has down in GB to other organizations like Pitt and Indy is down-right STUPIDITY.

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB.
First off, knock off the personal insults. Just stop. They don't help. At all. Anyone reading thinks less of the argument as soon as they read it.

Second, the 2006 Super Bowl champion Indianapolis Colts would like to talk to you about running the ball and stopping the run as necessities to winning football. Both the Colts and the Steelers have had trouble with their O lines and trouble running the ball. They are bad examples for your case. Manning can run a pass only attack as can Roethlisberger. Manning does it by dissecting a defense quicker than any other QB with the possible exception of Brees. And Roethlisberger because no matter how much he gets hit, he is so big he can still stand in the pocket and get the throws off.

The current problem with the Packers is that Rodgers is neither that big nor that fast (yet).

[sharpe1027]

For someone with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to x's and o's, you sure post some dumb shit when it comes to defending Teddy. Comparing what this clown has down in GB to other organizations like Pitt and Indy is down-right STUPIDITY.

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB. In YEAR 5, Thompson's team DOES NIETHER. And please don't start quoting me stats cause we both know stats can be mis-leading. Let's base this on what we've seen this season.

Those other organizations did what Teddy cannot do and that is find medium round offensive linemen who are DEPENDABLE. In other words, they won't consistently blow guys off the line, but neither will they have brain cramps and forget their blocking assignment. Nor will they whiff on a block and stand by to watch their QB get drilled or forget the snap count on a key drive.

Also may-be you should go back year by year in those other organizations and look at picks in rounds 1-4 and see how many of those picks became wasted and compare it to Teddy's stellar record. I think you would be surprised.

One last thought. You paint a rosy picture for the next "cycle" as you call it. Your boy has done NOTHING to replace the most important position on the O-line. Clifton is at the end of his career and we have NO ONE who we can trust to protect the franchise QB's blind side. For someone as football smart as you, failing to recognize this EPIC Thompson blunder is just a damn shame...........

Saying it LOUDER and calling others STUPID killed any logic you might have had for me. Your tone comes off as such a jackass, I lost track of your point before the first paragraph ended. Just my opinion.

[Brandon494]

For someone with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to x's and o's, you sure post some dumb shit when it comes to defending Teddy. Comparing what this clown has down in GB to other organizations like Pitt and Indy is down-right STUPIDITY.

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB. In YEAR 5, Thompson's team DOES NIETHER. And please don't start quoting me stats cause we both know stats can be mis-leading. Let's base this on what we've seen this season.

Those other organizations did what Teddy cannot do and that is find medium round offensive linemen who are DEPENDABLE. In other words, they won't consistently blow guys off the line, but neither will they have brain cramps and forget their blocking assignment. Nor will they whiff on a block and stand by to watch their QB get drilled or forget the snap count on a key drive.

Also may-be you should go back year by year in those other organizations and look at picks in rounds 1-4 and see how many of those picks became wasted and compare it to Teddy's stellar record. I think you would be surprised.

One last thought. You paint a rosy picture for the next "cycle" as you call it. Your boy has done NOTHING to replace the most important position on the O-line. Clifton is at the end of his career and we have NO ONE who we can trust to protect the franchise QB's blind side. For someone as football smart as you, failing to recognize this EPIC Thompson blunder is just a damn shame...........

Saying it LOUDER and calling others STUPID killed any logic you might have had for me. Your tone comes off as such a jackass, I lost track of your point before the first paragraph ended. Just my opinion.

+1

[Smidgeon]

For someone with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to x's and o's, you sure post some dumb shit when it comes to defending Teddy. Comparing what this clown has down in GB to other organizations like Pitt and Indy is down-right STUPIDITY.

I'm not sure I've ever read one of your posts before, since I'm new-ish to the forum, but this starting paragraph absolutely undermines any chance that I'll take anything you say as unbiased. If you want to rant, go ahead and rant.


Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB. In YEAR 5, Thompson's team DOES NIETHER. And please don't start quoting me stats cause we both know stats can be mis-leading. Let's base this on what we've seen this season.

Yes, stats can be misleading, but they can also be completely accurate. Here are some stats that say your assessment is off base. Oh yeah, except for the first point, they're all from this season, like you suggested:

* The Steelers were 4th in the league in most sacks last year and WON THE SUPER BOWL!
* The Packers running attack is 12th in yards and 13th in TDs, which are both better than the 49ers, a team that is known for their successful running game
* In terms of stopping the run, the Packers are 4th in fewest yards allowed and 3rd in fewest TDs allowed
* Just so you know, the GB running game is better than both Pittsburgh's and Indy's
* You know how many teams with a top 10 running offense have one of the 10 best records in the NFL? 2. You know how many top 10 passing offenses have one of the 10 best records in the NFL? 7.

Running doesn't win championships anymore. Passing and defense does.


Those other organizations did what Teddy cannot do and that is find medium round offensive linemen who are DEPENDABLE. In other words, they won't consistently blow guys off the line, but neither will they have brain cramps and forget their blocking assignment. Nor will they whiff on a block and stand by to watch their QB get drilled or forget the snap count on a key drive.

I think this is legitimate, to an extent. How do you know it isn't a fault of the coaches for failing to develop these picks? And have you watched any of Indy's games? Their O-line isn't close to all-pro. The difference is between the QBs: Peyton gets rid of the ball quickly, no matter what. AR isn't a bad QB, he just isn't that experienced yet.


Also may-be you should go back year by year in those other organizations and look at picks in rounds 1-4 and see how many of those picks became wasted and compare it to Teddy's stellar record. I think you would be surprised.

So instead of making these brash statements, why don't you pull out some statistics and prove just how bad TT's record is in comparison?


One last thought. You paint a rosy picture for the next "cycle" as you call it. Your boy has done NOTHING to replace the most important position on the O-line. Clifton is at the end of his career and we have NO ONE who we can trust to protect the franchise QB's blind side. For someone as football smart as you, failing to recognize this EPIC Thompson blunder is just a damn shame...........

Epic? Hardly. Done nothing? How do you know? Nothing came to fruition, but that doesn't mean he hasn't looked under every rock for a replacement. Clifton was supposedly as healthy as ever after his offseason injuries. Meredith was supposed to be developed into that replacement, but didn't pan out. Rumor had it that he would have taken Smith if the Bengals hadn't.

[Waldo]

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB. In YEAR 5, Thompson's team DOES NIETHER. And please don't start quoting me stats cause we both know stats can be mis-leading. Let's base this on what we've seen this season.

Run the ball. LOL, why don't you go back to 1990, note the rank of the run O, pass O, run D, and pass D of every team that makes it to the SB. Tell me again how important running the ball is?

Our running game is fine anyway, above average by virtually every measure.

Again there is not much correlation between # of sacks and postseason success. There is typically a correlation between passer rating or YPA and sacks, and there is a correlation between rating or YPA and postseason success, but those QB's that can maintain a high rating and YPA despite inflated sack numbers tend to be just as successful in the postseason as their peers with a similar rating/YPA that take fewer sacks. The effectiveness of the passing game is what matters, not the number of sacks, which is only a part of the equation that makes up the effectiveness of the passing game.


Those other organizations did what Teddy cannot do and that is find medium round offensive linemen who are DEPENDABLE. In other words, they won't consistently blow guys off the line, but neither will they have brain cramps and forget their blocking assignment. Nor will they whiff on a block and stand by to watch their QB get drilled or forget the snap count on a key drive.

Aaron is the problem more often than not when it comes to the free rushers. There are plays where the QB has to account for the free rusher. All blocking schemes block inside out, if a free rusher is going to come based on available #'s, the blockers got it right if the free rusher comes from the edge on the hot side. Which they have been. Problem is Aaron hasn't recognized it (or cared), thrown it hot, and his WR's haven't adjusted hot.

We had a backup LT for a long time. MM and his staff decided this year that enough was enough, end the musical chairs and make him a full time G. There are consequences to that COACHING decision. I never met another person on any MB anywhere that was not dead set against the end to musical chairs thing like I was. I recognized this problem in camp. Ted didn't create this problem.

He supplied a mid range LT prospect to MM (Colledge), every bit the player on draft day that Matt Light was for the Pats, but more athletic, however very similar traits to their game and physical measurements, very similar physically to Jordan Gross.

Did Ted decide to keep Giacomini over Meredith? Did Ted decide to give almost no practice snaps to Meredith. Meredith is currently starting at RT and hands down outplaying Barbre. In his 3 starts he's given up 1 sack. Is that Teds fault?

We drafted on of the better RT's in the 2008 draft. A little short, but only an inch or so. Real similar build to our last RT, a hair taller and a bunch more athletic. He's now our starting RG, and has been a RG from day 1. Sitton would be a fine RT if he moved over, he is superior to Tausher in virtually every respect. Why not play Lang at RG and Sitton at RT? That option was seemingly never even approached, yet it is probably our best alignment given our people.

Of course one of our most experienced and dependable lineman that Ted has drafted is on IR. Lets just ignore that fact though. It makes your argument better.

Do you not find it curious that guys that couldn't make our team are starters or backups elsewhere on the OL? Why is that?

MM, Philbin, and Campen have a real problem with choosing what a guy should play, and coaching him to fit that role. And they have done a very poor job with the gameday active backups, especially this year. The backup LT situation is squarely on MM and his staff's head. If "musical chairs" was such a problem, Colledge should have become a full time backup T, and somebody else (Barbre or Lang) the starting LG. Ending all practice snaps for your backup LT, and putting him on a mass gaining program that saps the athleticism that made him a T, is just plain idiotic.


Also may-be you should go back year by year in those other organizations and look at picks in rounds 1-4 and see how many of those picks became wasted and compare it to Teddy's stellar record. I think you would be surprised.

And Ted has clearly outperformed them in the 6th round. Big picture here. Talent comes from everywhere. Why limit the set to rounds 1-4. Ah, it makes your argument better (not really though if you cared to check). You fail to grasp the macro view. All GM's that has been in place for a full roster cycle that gets zero free agents will each draft the exact same number of starters and backups as every other GM in the same situation, regardless of how many draft picks they have. Only 53 guys can make the cut. If you draft (or sign as an UDFA) 250 guys over a 10 year period, 53 of them make your team; your success rate is 21.2%. Draft (or sign as a UDFA) 125 guys over a 10 year period, 53 of them still make your team. Now your success rate is 42.4%. Do you understand this concept?

Grading a GM by his success in rounds X is a pointless endeavor. For virtually every high player taken that didn't work out, TT got a later player that did, at the same position, either via the draft, waiver wire, minor trade, or as an UDFA.

Murphy-J Jones
Underwood-Bigby
Hodge-Bishop
Harrell-Jolly and Wynn
Jackson-Grant
Rouse-Martin/Giordano (very weak)
Thompson-B Jones
Brohm-Flynn
Lee-Williams and Underwood
etc...

If you use the line that TT sucks in the higher rounds, and grade him based on that, using success rate, you've got to consider him an absolute genius with late rounds and UDFAs, using the same method.

How many TT draft picks, in his time with GB, are not currently on an active roster (or IR) in the NFL, that didn't have career ending injuries. All that trading down, stockpiling. If the word is that he sucks and his picks don't work out, one would expect that his guys that get away are out of the NFL. Well, I'll leave it up to you to go do that research, then again, you already know the answer.

Why is it that our PS is one of the most pilfered in the NFL? Every year a guy or two is stolen, or somebody tries to steal them. Surely a sign that TT sucks, and that he has no eye for talent.

Of the two dozen or so players claimed yearly after camp cuts, why is it that GB has some of its cuts claimed every year, typically a couple? Obviously a sign that TT sucks and has no eye for talent.

I would wager good money, that since TT took over in GB, the combination of GB cuts that were claimed on waivers and guys taken from our practice squad is at least in the top 3 in the NFL over that span, most likely #1.



One last thought. You paint a rosy picture for the next "cycle" as you call it. Your boy has done NOTHING to replace the most important position on the O-line. Clifton is at the end of his career and we have NO ONE who we can trust to protect the franchise QB's blind side. For someone as football smart as you, failing to recognize this EPIC Thompson blunder is just a damn shame...........

Really, why don't we look at all the college LT's that TT has drafted (or acquired as an UDFA) in GB:

Colledge
Moll
Thompson
Barbre
Lang
Meredith

An average of more than 1 per year in his time as GM. He's obviously done nothing to address the issue. As the need has now grown much greater now, I'm sure that we will see something on the FA front or a high draft pick, as opposed to trying to find a good one using later picks (thought the guy that had been the backup the whole time was TT's 2nd pick in the McCarthy era (obviously nobody saw this as important, right?). But go ahead and be a chicken little, we're doomed, this will never be fixed...

Clifton stays healthy, Mac keeps Meredith over Breno, is this an issue?

[Scott Campbell]

For someone with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to x's and o's, you sure post some dumb shit when it comes to defending Teddy. Comparing what this clown has down in GB to other organizations like Pitt and Indy is down-right STUPIDITY.

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB. In YEAR 5, Thompson's team DOES NIETHER. And please don't start quoting me stats cause we both know stats can be mis-leading. Let's base this on what we've seen this season.

Those other organizations did what Teddy cannot do and that is find medium round offensive linemen who are DEPENDABLE. In other words, they won't consistently blow guys off the line, but neither will they have brain cramps and forget their blocking assignment. Nor will they whiff on a block and stand by to watch their QB get drilled or forget the snap count on a key drive.

Also may-be you should go back year by year in those other organizations and look at picks in rounds 1-4 and see how many of those picks became wasted and compare it to Teddy's stellar record. I think you would be surprised.

One last thought. You paint a rosy picture for the next "cycle" as you call it. Your boy has done NOTHING to replace the most important position on the O-line. Clifton is at the end of his career and we have NO ONE who we can trust to protect the franchise QB's blind side. For someone as football smart as you, failing to recognize this EPIC Thompson blunder is just a damn shame...........

Saying it LOUDER and calling others STUPID killed any logic you might have had for me. Your tone comes off as such a jackass, I lost track of your point before the first paragraph ended. Just my opinion.



Normally I'd chip in here, but you guys have it pretty well covered. Thanks.

[Smidgeon]

For someone with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to x's and o's, you sure post some dumb shit when it comes to defending Teddy. Comparing what this clown has down in GB to other organizations like Pitt and Indy is down-right STUPIDITY.

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB. In YEAR 5, Thompson's team DOES NIETHER. And please don't start quoting me stats cause we both know stats can be mis-leading. Let's base this on what we've seen this season.

Those other organizations did what Teddy cannot do and that is find medium round offensive linemen who are DEPENDABLE. In other words, they won't consistently blow guys off the line, but neither will they have brain cramps and forget their blocking assignment. Nor will they whiff on a block and stand by to watch their QB get drilled or forget the snap count on a key drive.

Also may-be you should go back year by year in those other organizations and look at picks in rounds 1-4 and see how many of those picks became wasted and compare it to Teddy's stellar record. I think you would be surprised.

One last thought. You paint a rosy picture for the next "cycle" as you call it. Your boy has done NOTHING to replace the most important position on the O-line. Clifton is at the end of his career and we have NO ONE who we can trust to protect the franchise QB's blind side. For someone as football smart as you, failing to recognize this EPIC Thompson blunder is just a damn shame...........

Saying it LOUDER and calling others STUPID killed any logic you might have had for me. Your tone comes off as such a jackass, I lost track of your point before the first paragraph ended. Just my opinion.



Normally I'd chip in here, but you guys have it pretty well covered. Thanks.

This is true teamwork. Eric Mangini should be paying attention...

[bobblehead]

But don't tell us that bicep and ankle injuries are precursors to back troubles.

Not precursors to back trouble, but warnings that the guy couldn't stay healthy. He played one complete college year, was banged up the rest of them. You can't predict back trouble, but there were warnings PB, significant warnings...

I would guess that a full half of marquee talents coming out of college have at least one notable injury in their career. And honestly, ankle injuries are fluke injuries, they are warning signs of NOTHING!

[Waldo]

But don't tell us that bicep and ankle injuries are precursors to back troubles.

Not precursors to back trouble, but warnings that the guy couldn't stay healthy. He played one complete college year, was banged up the rest of them. You can't predict back trouble, but there were warnings PB, significant warnings...

I would guess that a full half of marquee talents coming out of college have at least one notable injury in their career. And honestly, ankle injuries are fluke injuries, they are warning signs of NOTHING!

Biceps too. Torn biceps, while not terribly common, have a near 100% recovery rate to pre-injury levels.

The back thing really sucks. Especially because it occurred in GB's weight room.

[bobblehead]

For someone with a wealth of knowledge when it comes to x's and o's, you sure post some dumb shit when it comes to defending Teddy. Comparing what this clown has down in GB to other organizations like Pitt and Indy is down-right STUPIDITY.

Football offense 101 states you must be able to RUN THE BALL AND PROTECT YOUR QB. In YEAR 5, Thompson's team DOES NIETHER. And please don't start quoting me stats cause we both know stats can be mis-leading. Let's base this on what we've seen this season.

Those other organizations did what Teddy cannot do and that is find medium round offensive linemen who are DEPENDABLE. In other words, they won't consistently blow guys off the line, but neither will they have brain cramps and forget their blocking assignment. Nor will they whiff on a block and stand by to watch their QB get drilled or forget the snap count on a key drive.

Also may-be you should go back year by year in those other organizations and look at picks in rounds 1-4 and see how many of those picks became wasted and compare it to Teddy's stellar record. I think you would be surprised.

One last thought. You paint a rosy picture for the next "cycle" as you call it. Your boy has done NOTHING to replace the most important position on the O-line. Clifton is at the end of his career and we have NO ONE who we can trust to protect the franchise QB's blind side. For someone as football smart as you, failing to recognize this EPIC Thompson blunder is just a damn shame...........

Saying it LOUDER and calling others STUPID killed any logic you might have had for me. Your tone comes off as such a jackass, I lost track of your point before the first paragraph ended. Just my opinion.

His point was that because MM calls only 15 runs a game that TT has obviously failed to provide us with a running game.

[Smidgeon]

But don't tell us that bicep and ankle injuries are precursors to back troubles.

Not precursors to back trouble, but warnings that the guy couldn't stay healthy. He played one complete college year, was banged up the rest of them. You can't predict back trouble, but there were warnings PB, significant warnings...

I would guess that a full half of marquee talents coming out of college have at least one notable injury in their career. And honestly, ankle injuries are fluke injuries, they are warning signs of NOTHING!

Biceps too. Torn biceps, while not terribly common, have a near 100% recovery rate to pre-injury levels.

The back thing really sucks. Especially because it occurred in GB's weight room.

Didn't part of it start in his mom's kitchen?

[bobblehead]

But don't tell us that bicep and ankle injuries are precursors to back troubles.

Not precursors to back trouble, but warnings that the guy couldn't stay healthy. He played one complete college year, was banged up the rest of them. You can't predict back trouble, but there were warnings PB, significant warnings...

I would guess that a full half of marquee talents coming out of college have at least one notable injury in their career. And honestly, ankle injuries are fluke injuries, they are warning signs of NOTHING!

Biceps too. Torn biceps, while not terribly common, have a near 100% recovery rate to pre-injury levels.

The back thing really sucks. Especially because it occurred in GB's weight room.

Didn't part of it start in his mom's kitchen?

Common myth...but as some have pointed out it was something like 8 weeks between the end of the season and the off season workouts...just how outta shape can a 24? year old get in 8 weeks?

[mraynrand]

But don't tell us that bicep and ankle injuries are precursors to back troubles.

Not precursors to back trouble, but warnings that the guy couldn't stay healthy. He played one complete college year, was banged up the rest of them. You can't predict back trouble, but there were warnings PB, significant warnings...

I would guess that a full half of marquee talents coming out of college have at least one notable injury in their career. And honestly, ankle injuries are fluke injuries, they are warning signs of NOTHING!

Biceps too. Torn biceps, while not terribly common, have a near 100% recovery rate to pre-injury levels.

The back thing really sucks. Especially because it occurred in GB's weight room.

Didn't part of it start in his mom's kitchen?

I like the Mom's kitchen theory. Gilbert Brown porked it on too in Mom's kitchen and he blew out a bicep as well.

[Smidgeon]

But don't tell us that bicep and ankle injuries are precursors to back troubles.

Not precursors to back trouble, but warnings that the guy couldn't stay healthy. He played one complete college year, was banged up the rest of them. You can't predict back trouble, but there were warnings PB, significant warnings...

I would guess that a full half of marquee talents coming out of college have at least one notable injury in their career. And honestly, ankle injuries are fluke injuries, they are warning signs of NOTHING!

Biceps too. Torn biceps, while not terribly common, have a near 100% recovery rate to pre-injury levels.

The back thing really sucks. Especially because it occurred in GB's weight room.

Didn't part of it start in his mom's kitchen?

I like the Mom's kitchen theory. Gilbert Brown porked it on too in Mom's kitchen and he blew out a bicep as well.

He was also a very solid player on the GB D-line for a while. I'll take that correlation!

[CaliforniaCheez]

Some of you forget some details of that 2005 salary cap shedding season.

1) They had been putting off Brett's salary cap and Andrew Brandt said unless you start paying it down there will be disaster upon retirement like Aikman).

2) Sharper was no longer affordable, Rivera, and Wahle were all part of it.

3) The Shermn GM years had to be paid down. There was no way to avoid the pain.

XXXXXXXXXXXX

As to trading Kampmann, you get more than just a 5th round compensatory pick if he signs elsewhere, but you lose leadership and give up on him without giving him a chance. Plus if there were injuries on the D line he can still take over there.

There is no easy solution.

***************
Colledge was drafted for that silly zone blocking crap. That fad is ending and you saw with drafting Sitton, Lang and Meredith the direction the line is headed. Being stylish costs you in the long run.

@@@@@@@@@@@

Back to Brohm. The problem is arm strength. He can't put the zip on the ball required at the NFL level. That in turn hurt his confidence and mental outlook. He tried more to not make mistakes instead of making plays.

The Packers had not given up on him. They cut and lost Jake Allen to Cleveland to make a spot for him. But Brohm wisely relizing that next year he would probably be a practice squad player sees money and opportunity in the confused Buffalo Bills situation. Can't blame him a bit. The Packers will not really miss him. Trading him this offseason would have been giving up on him.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

With Jolly and Pickett's contracts up there will be another defensive lineman drafted. Even if Lang is Clifton's replacement a back up will have to be drafted. They also have to find a replacement at CB that is not named Lee or Blackmon. Midrounds don't be suprised if a big Center and RB are drafted. 3rd QB is just not a priority.

[pbmax]

1) They had been putting off Brett's salary cap and Andrew Brandt said unless you start paying it down there will be disaster upon retirement like Aikman).
I don't remember this at all. Any details you recall? My memory is that they played Favre's contract pretty straight. But my memory has failed before.

[KYPack]

I kid you not. We still need to find a back-up QB. Flynn is totally unproven. We need a guy who can come in and play QB. Flynn could be a total disaster.

I don't care how well he knows the O, can he play?

Nobody knows.

[Rastak]

I kid you not. We still need to find a back-up QB. Flynn is totally unproven. We need a guy who can come in and play QB. Flynn could be a total disaster.

I don't care how well he knows the O, can he play?

Nobody knows.


KY, I have to agree. I'm a big fan of having a vet as #2 and a developmental guy at #3.

[KYPack]

I kid you not. We still need to find a back-up QB. Flynn is totally unproven. We need a guy who can come in and play QB. Flynn could be a total disaster.

I don't care how well he knows the O, can he play?

Nobody knows.


KY, I have to agree. I'm a big fan of having a vet as #2 and a developmental guy at #3.

You got it pal.
Lay out some money for a vet #2, and make sure he the kind of guy who help mature the kid you have #3. But his primary job is moving the team if the big boy goes down. TT's insistence at two kids at back-up is flat-out goofy.

Chez, PB is right. BF's contact was a 10 year extension expiring in 2010. Brandt got it done correctly, there was no big hit coming that we had to pay down.

The Aikman deal was an example to Jerruh thaat he needed to get a cap guy. Brett's deal was nowhere like that one.

[pbmax]

Time to wander off to the recesses of my memory.

It was 1988. No one knew what a cell phone was, but we had car phones just like in the Shazam! (not Kazam!) live action cartoon on Saturday morning. But ours came in a bag like your were an infantry radio operator. You paid $400 to have the antenna mounted to your car so the window could then leak. Computers weren't in every house and those that had them were communicating with bulletin boards at 300 baud. Oddly enough, the only things discussed were porn, football and insults. Somethings never change. The only reason to get cable was HBO and ESPN and satellite antennas were larger than a picnic table.

And the Cleveland Browns had a playoff team and a great situation at QB. A young star in Bernie Kosar with a veteran backup in Gary Danielson. Sure Kosar looked more like your tax attorney than an NFL QB, but he was smart and somehow he made it work while moving around the pocket like he was running in sand. This team was coached by Marty Schottenheimer which meant it was snake bit. And in 1988, that meant QB injuries.

Week 1 Kosar gets hurt and Danielson comes in, gets a win versus the Chiefs. Danielson starts one week later and is nearly killed when Mark Gastineau and Brigitte Nielsen trample him doing the sack dance. This injury, which must have been more horrific than I remember, ends Danielson's career. Of course, he is 204 years old. Mike Pagel, former below average starting QB for the Colts goes in and takes the loss to the Jets. Browns have no one else at QB so they lure Don Strock out of Miami retirement by promising to play him only in away or dome games. Pagel goes 2-2 in four starts after the Jets game and then is hurt himself, I believe.

Kosar is getting healthier, but Strock gets a start first and ingratiates himself with the faithful by beating the Eagles. Bernie returns for a 5-3 stretch at which time he must take a training class at H&R Block. Strock starts 2 more games and goes 1-1. He is 38 and 2-1 as a starter. Unfortunately for Browns fans, that last start came on Dec 24, 1988. Which in those days of no byes and no issue with Labor Day, was the first week of the playoffs.

Errol Morrall of the story? Follow KYPack's advice and hire Don Strock. He is only 59 years old. :lol:

P.S. The Browns played the Bears in the 1986 opener, the year after the Super Bowl shuffle and were taking the stuffing out of the Bears. You could pass on them if you had a Hall of Fame TE named Ozzie Newsome and your QB did not mind being horizontal. The Browns lost in Chicago, but not before demonstrating the worst trait of Instant Replay (new that year). On a kickoff or punt, the ball was batted into the endzone and two refs watched it roll out of bounds. AND THEY MADE NO CALL! They looked at one another and then went to find the Head Ref. He had to use the radio (no peep show booth then) to call upstairs to find out what should have been called on the field. Browns got the better of the call, but Replay was changed that week to avoid refs and umpires waiting for a decision from upstairs.

[Fosco33]

I didn't know that PS guys were only getting like $80K. Guess I'd leave if I were going to get a chance at playing and $300K more.

Tell me you would leave your current job to get a massive pay increase and a chance at a need-based promotion.

[Scott Campbell]

I didn't know that PS guys were only getting like $80K. Guess I'd leave if I were going to get a chance at playing and $300K more.

Tell me you would leave your current job to get a massive pay increase and a chance at a need-based promotion.



He got offered the same roster spot and pay here. As a free agent, he decided the Bills offered him a better opportunity.

[Smidgeon]

I didn't know that PS guys were only getting like $80K. Guess I'd leave if I were going to get a chance at playing and $300K more.

Tell me you would leave your current job to get a massive pay increase and a chance at a need-based promotion.

I totally understand your point, and would be hardpressed to ignore it, but you also have to weigh long term career instead of just immediate career. Yeah, the short term opportunity in Buffalo is way, way better than GB. But Buffalo is in a state of flux and isn't exactly known for building up good QBs (since Kelly). GB seems to have had more success at that over the years. I don't blame him at all to take the promotion, but personally I'd at least hesitate to take a promotion if it meant that I'd be downgrading my organizational surroundings.

[sharpe1027]

I totally understand your point, and would be hardpressed to ignore it, but you also have to weigh long term career instead of just immediate career. Yeah, the short term opportunity in Buffalo is way, way better than GB. But Buffalo is in a state of flux and isn't exactly known for building up good QBs (since Kelly). GB seems to have had more success at that over the years. I don't blame him at all to take the promotion, but personally I'd at least hesitate to take a promotion if it meant that I'd be downgrading my organizational surroundings.

The Packers have had good luck with QBs, but they would have been be looking for his replacement after this year. Brohm cleared waivers (no other team was interested) and was stuck on the PS all year.

Hesitate when given an opportunity to go somewhere with a better chance of sticking? Maybe only for a minute or two... :lol:

[Smidgeon]

I totally understand your point, and would be hardpressed to ignore it, but you also have to weigh long term career instead of just immediate career. Yeah, the short term opportunity in Buffalo is way, way better than GB. But Buffalo is in a state of flux and isn't exactly known for building up good QBs (since Kelly). GB seems to have had more success at that over the years. I don't blame him at all to take the promotion, but personally I'd at least hesitate to take a promotion if it meant that I'd be downgrading my organizational surroundings.

The Packers have had good luck with QBs, but they would have been be looking for his replacement after this year. Brohm cleared waivers (no other team was interested) and was stuck on the PS all year.

Hesitate when given an opportunity to go somewhere with a better chance of sticking? Maybe only for a minute or two... :lol:

Yeah, it'd probably only be a minute or two, but I'd still hesitate. And who knows, maybe this offseason he would have put it all together and become the rising star everyone predicted...

[get louder at lambeau]

I didn't know that PS guys were only getting like $80K. Guess I'd leave if I were going to get a chance at playing and $300K more.

Tell me you would leave your current job to get a massive pay increase and a chance at a need-based promotion.



He got offered the same roster spot and pay here. As a free agent, he decided the Bills offered him a better opportunity.

I read that the Packers offered to bring him up into the roster, but they didn't match Buffalo's offer, which included a bonus. I saw Brohm throw in Training Camp, and I don't blame them for not wanting to give him a bonus.

[Freak Out]

Time to wander off to the recesses of my memory.

It was 1988. No one knew what a cell phone was, but we had car phones just like in the Shazam! (not Kazam!) live action cartoon on Saturday morning. But ours came in a bag like your were an infantry radio operator. You paid $400 to have the antenna mounted to your car so the window could then leak. Computers weren't in every house and those that had them were communicating with bulletin boards at 300 baud. Oddly enough, the only things discussed were porn, football and insults. Somethings never change. The only reason to get cable was HBO and ESPN and satellite antennas were larger than a picnic table.

And the Cleveland Browns had a playoff team and a great situation at QB. A young star in Bernie Kosar with a veteran backup in Gary Danielson. Sure Kosar looked more like your tax attorney than an NFL QB, but he was smart and somehow he made it work while moving around the pocket like he was running in sand. This team was coached by Marty Schottenheimer which meant it was snake bit. And in 1988, that meant QB injuries.

Week 1 Kosar gets hurt and Danielson comes in, gets a win versus the Chiefs. Danielson starts one week later and is nearly killed when Mark Gastineau and Brigitte Nielsen trample him doing the sack dance. This injury, which must have been more horrific than I remember, ends Danielson's career. Of course, he is 204 years old. Mike Pagel, former below average starting QB for the Colts goes in and takes the loss to the Jets. Browns have no one else at QB so they lure Don Strock out of Miami retirement by promising to play him only in away or dome games. Pagel goes 2-2 in four starts after the Jets game and then is hurt himself, I believe.

Kosar is getting healthier, but Strock gets a start first and ingratiates himself with the faithful by beating the Eagles. Bernie returns for a 5-3 stretch at which time he must take a training class at H&R Block. Strock starts 2 more games and goes 1-1. He is 38 and 2-1 as a starter. Unfortunately for Browns fans, that last start came on Dec 24, 1988. Which in those days of no byes and no issue with Labor Day, was the first week of the playoffs.

Errol Morrall of the story? Follow KYPack's advice and hire Don Strock. He is only 59 years old. :lol:

P.S. The Browns played the Bears in the 1986 opener, the year after the Super Bowl shuffle and were taking the stuffing out of the Bears. You could pass on them if you had a Hall of Fame TE named Ozzie Newsome and your QB did not mind being horizontal. The Browns lost in Chicago, but not before demonstrating the worst trait of Instant Replay (new that year). On a kickoff or punt, the ball was batted into the endzone and two refs watched it roll out of bounds. AND THEY MADE NO CALL! They looked at one another and then went to find the Head Ref. He had to use the radio (no peep show booth then) to call upstairs to find out what should have been called on the field. Browns got the better of the call, but Replay was changed that week to avoid refs and umpires waiting for a decision from upstairs.

:) Good stuff Max.

[sharpe1027]

Yeah, it'd probably only be a minute or two, but I'd still hesitate. And who knows, maybe this offseason he would have put it all together and become the rising star everyone predicted...

Maybe he does put it together, stranger things have happened. However, not much points in that direction and hopes and best wishes don't win games. Good luck to him.

[Smidgeon]

Yeah, it'd probably only be a minute or two, but I'd still hesitate. And who knows, maybe this offseason he would have put it all together and become the rising star everyone predicted...

Maybe he does put it together, stranger things have happened. However, not much points in that direction and hopes and best wishes don't win games. Good luck to him.

Agreed.

[KYPack]

OK, we offered him a spot on the roster and money. But that money was nowhere near what he would have gotten if we kept his rookie deal intact.

The only choice was for him to leave, espec with Buffalo offering more dough.

[Smidgeon]

OK, we offered him a spot on the roster and money. But that money was nowhere near what he would have gotten if we kept his rookie deal intact.

The only choice was for him to leave, espec with Buffalo offering more dough.

Sure the money was "nowhere near what he would have gotten if we kept his rookie deal intact". But his skill level was nowhere near what we would have gotten if he performed like everyone expected. He didn't get gipped. He failed to perform and got a pay cut because of it.

[Fosco33]

I didn't know that PS guys were only getting like $80K. Guess I'd leave if I were going to get a chance at playing and $300K more.

Tell me you would leave your current job to get a massive pay increase and a chance at a need-based promotion.



He got offered the same roster spot and pay here. As a free agent, he decided the Bills offered him a better opportunity.

I read that the Packers offered to bring him up into the roster, but they didn't match Buffalo's offer, which included a bonus. I saw Brohm throw in Training Camp, and I don't blame them for not wanting to give him a bonus.

I thought I read somewhere that the bonus was $10K. Really? I'm getting a bonus in February that Brohm may be jealous of...

Good luck to him.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I kid you not. We still need to find a back-up QB. Flynn is totally unproven. We need a guy who can come in and play QB. Flynn could be a total disaster.

I don't care how well he knows the O, can he play?

Nobody knows.

The Shadow knows.

[sharpe1027]

I kid you not. We still need to find a back-up QB. Flynn is totally unproven. We need a guy who can come in and play QB. Flynn could be a total disaster.

I don't care how well he knows the O, can he play?

Nobody knows.

The Shadow knows.

That just sent shiver down my spine.

[MJZiggy]

I kid you not. We still need to find a back-up QB. Flynn is totally unproven. We need a guy who can come in and play QB. Flynn could be a total disaster.

I don't care how well he knows the O, can he play?

Nobody knows.

The Shadow knows.

That just sent shiver down my spine.

Really? It gave me a cramp in my foot.

I think we'll learn about Flynn how you're supposed to: in the fourth quarter of a blowout win.