Special Teams - Cover your eyes

[Bossman641]

I knew the special teams were bad, but I didn't realize just how bad they were.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091201/PKR07/91201156/1058/PKR01/Vandermause--Special-teams-must-help


The Packers have been plagued by inconsistency across the board. They rank 22nd in kickoff returns, 23rd in punt returns, 23rd in opponents’ kickoff returns and 32nd — last — in net punting.

Only once in the past 39 seasons has the Packers’ kickoff coverage team been worse than this year, based on average yards allowed per return. Only once in the past decade has the Packers’ punt return average been worse than this year.

The Packers’ net punting average has plummeted 2.2 yards from last year, when a washed up Derrick Frost was their primary punter, and a whopping 4.1 yards from two years ago when they ranked 10th with Jon Ryan on the job.

Who knew we would be longing for the days of Derrick Frost?

[channtheman]

If you can, go to the Lions game and watch our gunners Nick Collins and Jarrett Bush. On almost every kick off they ran themselves right out of the play. They'd run full speed to the 20 and the kick returner would go right past them.

[digitaldean]

What stuns me about a lot of NFL special teams is that no one really tries for the coffin corner any more.

I know I'm dating myself, but I remember when Ray Guy made this an art form. The dude was money pinning others deep near their own endzone.

[Bossman641]

The ST play really confuses me. What is the reason?

Improper technique being coached by Slocum?
Players don't have that crazed ST mindset?
Busted coverages? The regularity with which our ST suck makes me believe it's not this
You would also think it couldn't be because of having the wrong body types - recall all the MM talk about the extra LB being carried being good for ST.

[Fosco33]

I fed the net avg falling to Pelissero a few weeks back... no more goats I guess. Wish we had Ryan still.

[Fritz]

What stuns me about a lot of NFL special teams is that no one really tries for the coffin corner any more.

I know I'm dating myself, but I remember when Ray Guy made this an art form. The dude was money pinning others deep near their own endzone.

I'm 100% with you on this one, Dean. Back in the day, punters who were good at their craft could knock the ball out of bounds after a 38-40-something yard kick - and thus a zero net, no chance at a run back at all. Most punters are already asked to kick directionally, I believe, so why not just kick it a little farther toward the sideline and try to get it to go out of bounds? You lose distance, sure, but there's no run back involved.

[MJZiggy]

If we don't start covering soon (without the mandatory block in the back penalty--does it have to be EVERY time?) maybe they'll bring it back...

[pbmax]

Football Outsiders has the Packer Special Teams at 32nd this week. I have no spin or kool-aid here. They stink. I think wist should stop worrying about the defense and figure out why the Packers can't draft, trade or waiver wire for Special Teams.

[RashanGary]

Football Outsiders has the Packer Special Teams at 32nd this week. I have no spin or kool-aid here. They stink. I think wist should stop worrying about the defense and figure out why the Packers can't draft, trade or waiver wire for Special Teams.

Wow. That's really pathetic. We have no chance for anything with ST's playing that way. We might as well fold up and quit right now.

[bobblehead]

Football Outsiders has the Packer Special Teams at 32nd this week. I have no spin or kool-aid here. They stink. I think wist should stop worrying about the defense and figure out why the Packers can't draft, trade or waiver wire for Special Teams.

They must factor in penalties which I would bet make our pathetic ST's look even worse if that is possible.

As for the coffin corner kick I agree. Not sure what the leagues justification for abandoning this is. No clue whatsoever. Hey, if we could punt it out of bounds to eliminate returns could we cut some of those ST aces who are contributing to our 32nd rank??

[Fritz]

Here's the mystery to me, PB: when final cutdowns come, often the rationale for what seem strange roster choices was that it was for the sake of special teams. Three fullbacks, linebackers like Lansanah, and so on. Yet the special teams continue to suck monkey butt.

[mraynrand]

The Packers have been attempting the 'coffin corner' of sorts on kickoffs.

Still, I don't know why anyone would think that a punter as lousy as Kapinos would be able to directionally kick. Who knows, maybe suckitude in hangtime and distance make you better at kicking on an angle, but I doubt it.

[pbmax]

Here's the mystery to me, PB: when final cutdowns come, often the rationale for what seem strange roster choices was that it was for the sake of special teams. Three fullbacks, linebackers like Lansanah, and so on. Yet the special teams continue to suck monkey butt.
Its a mystery. The Moll trade and Anthony Smith go into this column as well. Maybe Tracy White was that good?

[SkinBasket]

If you can, go to the Lions game and watch our gunners Nick Collins and Jarrett Bush. On almost every kick off they ran themselves right out of the play. They'd run full speed to the 20 and the kick returner would go right past them.

This has been S.O.P. for Bush his entire career, which has always made me wonder why people continue to, or ever did, call him a ST ace.

[Fritz]

The Packers have been attempting the 'coffin corner' of sorts on kickoffs.

Still, I don't know why anyone would think that a punter as lousy as Kapinos would be able to directionally kick. Who knows, maybe suckitude in hangtime and distance make you better at kicking on an angle, but I doubt it.

This is my theory. If your hangtime sucks and your distance sucks, can you please learn to kick the ball on an angle so it hits out of bounds after it's been in the air, say, 38 - 40 yards?

[pbmax]

If you can, go to the Lions game and watch our gunners Nick Collins and Jarrett Bush. On almost every kick off they ran themselves right out of the play. They'd run full speed to the 20 and the kick returner would go right past them.

This has been S.O.P. for Bush his entire career, which has always made me wonder why people continue to, or ever did, call him a ST ace.
His specialty is gunner on punt coverage. But he doesn't seem to be helping there either.

Packers are 20th overall at 43.2 gross, dead last in coverage with 33.5 net.

[SkinBasket]

If you can, go to the Lions game and watch our gunners Nick Collins and Jarrett Bush. On almost every kick off they ran themselves right out of the play. They'd run full speed to the 20 and the kick returner would go right past them.

This has been S.O.P. for Bush his entire career, which has always made me wonder why people continue to, or ever did, call him a ST ace.
His specialty is gunner on punt coverage. But he doesn't seem to be helping there either.

Packers are 20th overall at 43.2 gross, dead last in coverage with 33.5 net.

And when do you ever see him making a tackle or even holding the corner to force the returner into the coverage team? Maybe he misheard and assumed his specialty is "runner."

[Smidgeon]

The Packers have been attempting the 'coffin corner' of sorts on kickoffs.

Still, I don't know why anyone would think that a punter as lousy as Kapinos would be able to directionally kick. Who knows, maybe suckitude in hangtime and distance make you better at kicking on an angle, but I doubt it.

This is my theory. If your hangtime sucks and your distance sucks, can you please learn to kick the ball on an angle so it hits out of bounds after it's been in the air, say, 38 - 40 yards?

A while ago there was a great article (don't remember where) about the art of the coffin corner punt. I think Feagles in NY was the last kicker with the mastery of it. I'm not sure this is the article I read back when, but I found an article about it anyway:

Coffin kicking ESPN column. (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=sando_mike&id=3111471)

[KYPack]

The Packers have been attempting the 'coffin corner' of sorts on kickoffs.

Still, I don't know why anyone would think that a punter as lousy as Kapinos would be able to directionally kick. Who knows, maybe suckitude in hangtime and distance make you better at kicking on an angle, but I doubt it.

This is my theory. If your hangtime sucks and your distance sucks, can you please learn to kick the ball on an angle so it hits out of bounds after it's been in the air, say, 38 - 40 yards?

ST coaches hate punting the ball out of bounds. They feel the different trajectory is more prone to blocked kicks. They also all live in deadly fear of shanks. They (mistakenly IMHO) think a kick angled OB would be worse if you shank it. I think any shank is gonna suck, so why not try it from time to time?

This brings us to Stock and his illegitimate son, Slocum. It's obvious by now, Slocum didn't learn a lot at the feet of his master. We fired Stock's ass, why did we figure his asst was gonna be a world beater?

Stock was a total fool to cut Ryan so close to the start of the season. He should have scared the shit out of Ryan and got him kicking 'em the way he wanted. That, and he should have hired a kicking tutor to make sure he stayed with a two step punt. Ryan would revert to his old CFL 3 steppers and it drove Stock nuts. That's fine, but you don't run off a leg like his, you refine it.

Our cover guys are out of their lanes all the time and don't seem to have that 'ol kamikazee spirit you need to run cover. Bush got hit with a punt in the back last week, I think. That's at least half a dozen of those deals since he's been here. That's a guy who ain't too bright and isn't scared of losing his job. He should be.

[Rastak]

The Packers have been attempting the 'coffin corner' of sorts on kickoffs.

Still, I don't know why anyone would think that a punter as lousy as Kapinos would be able to directionally kick. Who knows, maybe suckitude in hangtime and distance make you better at kicking on an angle, but I doubt it.

This is my theory. If your hangtime sucks and your distance sucks, can you please learn to kick the ball on an angle so it hits out of bounds after it's been in the air, say, 38 - 40 yards?

ST coaches hate punting the ball out of bounds. They feel the different trajectory is more prone to blocked kicks. They also all live in deadly fear of shanks. They (mistakenly IMHO) think a kick angled OB would be worse if you shank it. I think any shank is gonna suck, so why not try it from time to time?

This brings us to Stock and his illegitimate son, Slocum. It's obvious by now, Slocum didn't learn a lot at the feet of his master. We fired Stock's ass, why did we figure his asst was gonna be a world beater?

Stock was a total fool to cut Ryan so close to the start of the season. He should have scared the shit out of Ryan and got him kicking 'em the way he wanted. That, and he should have hired a kicking tutor to make sure he stayed with a two step punt. Ryan would revert to his old CFL 3 steppers and it drove Stock nuts. That's fine, but you don't run off a leg like his, you refine it.

Our cover guys are out of their lanes all the time and don't seem to have that 'ol kamikazee spirit you need to run cover. Bush got hit with a punt in the back last week, I think. That's at least half a dozen of those deals since he's been here. That's a guy who ain't too bright and isn't scared of losing his job. He should be.


Greets KY.

Wanted to mention a couple of things on your two points bolded above.

1) Vikes did sort of the same thing. Let the top guy go who really sucked and promoted an assistant under him. They currently rank (per football outsiders) Number 1. So that argument has to be a case by case basis.

2) TT makes all the roster decisions. I admit I don't know for sure how it works but my guess would be TT and McCarthy make the decisions with TT having the final call. The Special Teams coordinator would plead his case to the HC. I could be off on this and perhaps each org is different.

[KYPack]

Hey Rasta.

Yeah, maybe Slocum could have been a world beater, but I think a whole new regime would have been the better move. No biggie, but there are always a few ST geeks out there. Slocum had never been a coordinator and the job is too big for him, I'd say.

There is no doubt in my mind that Stock got Ryan cut. Ryan was the kind of punter that give ST coaches fits. He was always trying to hit a boomer and those kickers scare guys like Stock. Stock knew of Frost and made the pitch to get the "control" kicker and lose the big leg Canuck. There were rumors to that effect at the time and Stock's "retirement" at seasons end confirms that deal.

Sure, things were done thru the chain of command, but Ryan would still be here if he had Stock's support. He didn't and was cut.

I think HC's should insist that the ST staff include a punting and PK tutor. Those guys are available for a song, but they can correct swing and step flaws just like golf tutors do for guys on the pro tour. Somebody like that could have straightened Ryan out very quickly

[Bossman641]

Hey Rasta.

Yeah, maybe Slocum could have been a world beater, but I think a whole new regime would have been the better move. No biggie, but there are always a few ST geeks out there. Slocum had never been a coordinator and the job is too big for him, I'd say.

There is no doubt in my mind that Stock got Ryan cut. Ryan was the kind of punter that give ST coaches fits. He was always trying to hit a boomer and those kickers scare guys like Stock. Stock knew of Frost and made the pitch to get the "control" kicker and lose the big leg Canuck. There were rumors to that effect at the time and Stock's "retirement" at seasons end confirms that deal.

Sure, things were done thru the chain of command, but Ryan would still be here if he had Stock's support. He didn't and was cut.

I think HC's should insist that the ST staff include a punting and PK tutor. Those guys are available for a song, but they can correct swing and step flaws just like golf tutors do for guys on the pro tour. Somebody like that could have straightened Ryan out very quickly

I agree with you. Didn't Ryan consult an outside coach at one time, possibly during the offseason? I feel like this happened and Stock was pissed about it.

[ND72]

I am waiting for the day after our season is done for Slocum to be fired.

[Fred's Slacks]

The poor special teams play IMO is the reason we are only a playoff hopeful instead of a SuperBowl favorite. The O and D are both playing well enough to beat anyone but they have to keep making up for the horrific special teams. Is it any suprise that our most impressive win this year (Dallas) also happened to be our best special teams game? If we could get that type of play consistently, we'll win alot of games. Funny thing is they don't have to be good, they just can't suck like they have.

[bobblehead]

The Packers have been attempting the 'coffin corner' of sorts on kickoffs.

Still, I don't know why anyone would think that a punter as lousy as Kapinos would be able to directionally kick. Who knows, maybe suckitude in hangtime and distance make you better at kicking on an angle, but I doubt it.

We aren't just referring to Kampinos, but the league in general has gone away from it...I think there are 3 guys in the league who are respected for the coffin corner right now.

[Zool]

The poor special teams play IMO is the reason we are only a playoff hopeful instead of a SuperBowl favorite. The O and D are both playing well enough to beat anyone but they have to keep making up for the horrific special teams. Is it any suprise that our most impressive win this year (Dallas) also happened to be our best special teams game? If we could get that type of play consistently, we'll win alot of games. Funny thing is they don't have to be good, they just can't suck like they have.

This!

Getting mediocre kick and punt coverage would do wonders for the team. Also Kapinos has to go. Low, short line drives a couple times per game shouldn't be acceptable. It's probably not "gonna get fixed" at this point.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

If the fault is Slocums, please explain the career of Bobby April.

[MichiganPackerFan]

GET BJ SANDER!!! :D






what, still too soon?

[KYPack]

If the fault is Slocums, please explain the career of Bobby April.

He's been ST coach of the year twice and coached ST for 3 NFL teams and has a ton of experience.

If MM would hire him, we could blame some other factor for shitty ST play?

[BallHawk]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

[Fritz]

I wonder how much if any validity there is to the fear that a directional punter has a better chance of having his kicks blocked. It'd be interesting (but not interesting enough for me to do it) to look at coffin corner guys like Feagles and see how his # punts blocked numbers look compared to other guys.

In my opinion, most posters way overvalue the worth of the screaming, high-energy coach. How'd Buddy Ryan do as a head coach? However, I feel that special teams is the one area of the three that can benefit from a wild-n-crazy coach. The special teamers have to have that kamikaze, screw-it-if-I-get-killed attitude to get down the field and do the job. It's the one area I think an emotional coordinator-coach can work in.

I am afraid when I hear MM talk about how pleased he is with the special teams. I know it wouldn't help to throw Slocum under the bus, but MM seems especially firm in his praise. Me no like.

Funny that last year lots of us were saying that if the defense could become even average that this team would do pretty well. Turns out that was true, so I too agree that if the Packers' special teams were even average, this team could be a SB contender.

[mngolf19]

What stuns me about a lot of NFL special teams is that no one really tries for the coffin corner any more.

I know I'm dating myself, but I remember when Ray Guy made this an art form. The dude was money pinning others deep near their own endzone.

I scream at the tv every time I see an NFL or college punter take a punt from inside the opp 50 and put it into the endzone. I'm with you on that.

[Smidgeon]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Well, one of M2's biggest blemishes as GM was drafting a punter...

[Pugger]

The Packers have been attempting the 'coffin corner' of sorts on kickoffs.

Still, I don't know why anyone would think that a punter as lousy as Kapinos would be able to directionally kick. Who knows, maybe suckitude in hangtime and distance make you better at kicking on an angle, but I doubt it.

This is my theory. If your hangtime sucks and your distance sucks, can you please learn to kick the ball on an angle so it hits out of bounds after it's been in the air, say, 38 - 40 yards?

ST coaches hate punting the ball out of bounds. They feel the different trajectory is more prone to blocked kicks. They also all live in deadly fear of shanks. They (mistakenly IMHO) think a kick angled OB would be worse if you shank it. I think any shank is gonna suck, so why not try it from time to time?

This brings us to Stock and his illegitimate son, Slocum. It's obvious by now, Slocum didn't learn a lot at the feet of his master. We fired Stock's ass, why did we figure his asst was gonna be a world beater?

Stock was a total fool to cut Ryan so close to the start of the season. He should have scared the shit out of Ryan and got him kicking 'em the way he wanted. That, and he should have hired a kicking tutor to make sure he stayed with a two step punt. Ryan would revert to his old CFL 3 steppers and it drove Stock nuts. That's fine, but you don't run off a leg like his, you refine it.

Our cover guys are out of their lanes all the time and don't seem to have that 'ol kamikazee spirit you need to run cover. Bush got hit with a punt in the back last week, I think. That's at least half a dozen of those deals since he's been here. That's a guy who ain't too bright and isn't scared of losing his job. He should be.

This move by MM is the most puzzling to me along with MM keeping Campen around. Even tho punting has been a issue I think punt and kick coverage is the true problem here. We give up big returns and there is always laundry on the turf when we are receiving punts/kicks. It is a surprise where there isn't a penalty during these plays and that is just unacceptable. If we are one of the wild card teams our ST will be our Waterloo. :(

[Tyrone Bigguns]

If the fault is Slocums, please explain the career of Bobby April.

He's been ST coach of the year twice and coached ST for 3 NFL teams and has a ton of experience.

If MM would hire him, we could blame some other factor for shitty ST play?

Nope. Missed the point.

Please explain his tenure with the Rams vs. Buffalo.

[mraynrand]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mTIR6JMpzsI/SZOK6TaSViI/AAAAAAAADQE/oMwOlny-Kdk/s400/brett+favre+jersey.jpg

[Smidgeon]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Don't start.

[BallHawk]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

[Partial]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Pretty messed up, eh? That and keeping three fullbacks is another one in people's eyes. Fricking weird.

[KYPack]

If the fault is Slocums, please explain the career of Bobby April.

He's been ST coach of the year twice and coached ST for 3 NFL teams and has a ton of experience.

If MM would hire him, we could blame some other factor for shitty ST play?

Nope. Missed the point.

Please explain his tenure with the Rams vs. Buffalo.

OK Ty.

Yer the genius and I, the dullard.

Did see April get a little too involved last night.

He was coaching like a madman when he got knocked flat on his ass on the sidelines.

[woodbuck27]

I fed the net avg falling to Pelissero a few weeks back... no more goats I guess. Wish we had Ryan still.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PUNTING&season=2009&seasonType=REG

Today as punters in the NFL Jon Ryan (Seattle) is ranked 8th while Jeremy Kampinos (Green Bay) is ranked 24th.

The argument may be? That if Jon Ryan was still in Green Bay he'd be ranked about 24th. Jon Ryan is a maturing punter in the NFL and he came to the NFL with outstanding promise and results from the CFL. :D

[mraynrand]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

Forgive me, but I don't see the punter as being anywhere close to one of TT's biggest blemishes. I'm on record in saying that I thought TT made the right call in the Favre/Rodgers situation. It was time to move on, IMO. However, if Favre goes and wins it all for the Vikings, well, then we're pretty much wrong - in a spectacular way - in the short term.

That being said, there are plenty of other blunders that are much larger than the punter. Not to say I don't think a lot of TT. well above average in the draft, so-so in pro-player/FA. Just don't think cutting Ryan is "one of his biggest blemishes." Not by a long shot.

[Smidgeon]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

Forgive me, but I don't see the punter as being anywhere close to one of TT's biggest blemishes. I'm on record in saying that I thought TT made the right call in the Favre/Rodgers situation. It was time to move on, IMO. However, if Favre goes and wins it all for the Vikings, well, then we're pretty much wrong - in a spectacular way - in the short term.

That being said, there are plenty of other blunders that are much larger than the punter. Not to say I don't think a lot of TT. well above average in the draft, so-so in pro-player/FA. Just don't think cutting Ryan is "one of his biggest blemishes." Not by a long shot.

Speaking to the bolded portion: you can't even say that conclusively, and nobody can say that conclusively because there's no guarantee that BF would be playing this well in GB. Maybe it's the domes, maybe it was him skipping minicamp that's kept him fresher. Maybe it took a bad year on the Jets that gave him a "Eureka" moment when it came to how he needed to play to still be effective. Whatever. That part's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is that you're comparing an actual to one of the several hypotheticals. So your bolded statement is just an unconfirmable sensationalist judgement point. (You should be a journalist. ;))

[woodbuck27]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

Forgive me, but I don't see the punter as being anywhere close to one of TT's biggest blemishes. I'm on record in saying that I thought TT made the right call in the Favre/Rodgers situation. It was time to move on, IMO. However, if Favre goes and wins it all for the Vikings, well, then we're pretty much wrong - in a spectacular way - in the short term.

That being said, there are plenty of other blunders that are much larger than the punter. Not to say I don't think a lot of TT. well above average in the draft, so-so in pro-player/FA. Just don't think cutting Ryan is "one of his biggest blemishes." Not by a long shot.

Speaking to the bolded portion: you can't even say that conclusively, and nobody can say that conclusively because there's no guarantee that BF would be playing this well in GB. Maybe it's the domes, maybe it was him skipping minicamp that's kept him fresher. Maybe it took a bad year on the Jets that gave him a "Eureka" moment when it came to how he needed to play to still be effective. Whatever. That part's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is that you're comparing an actual to one of the several hypotheticals. So your bolded statement is just an unconfirmable sensationalist judgement point. (You should be a journalist. ;))

The fallout of the Green Bay Packers decision to replace Brett Favre with Aaron Rodgers cannot reflect poorly on Ted Thompson ' et all ' instrumentle in that decision. Yes Ted Thompsons fears were realized when Favre ended up with an arch rival. Yes the early reports on that may be glamorized or sensationalized as a poor reflection on Ted Thompson, but long term, TT and Aaron Rodgers certainly now appears to be the best course. Aaron Rodgers isn't stumbling out of the gate. He's probably most responsible for saving Ted Thompson's butt.

[mraynrand]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

Forgive me, but I don't see the punter as being anywhere close to one of TT's biggest blemishes. I'm on record in saying that I thought TT made the right call in the Favre/Rodgers situation. It was time to move on, IMO. However, if Favre goes and wins it all for the Vikings, well, then we're pretty much wrong - in a spectacular way - in the short term.

That being said, there are plenty of other blunders that are much larger than the punter. Not to say I don't think a lot of TT. well above average in the draft, so-so in pro-player/FA. Just don't think cutting Ryan is "one of his biggest blemishes." Not by a long shot.

Speaking to the bolded portion: you can't even say that conclusively, and nobody can say that conclusively because there's no guarantee that BF would be playing this well in GB. Maybe it's the domes, maybe it was him skipping minicamp that's kept him fresher. Maybe it took a bad year on the Jets that gave him a "Eureka" moment when it came to how he needed to play to still be effective. Whatever. That part's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is that you're comparing an actual to one of the several hypotheticals. So your bolded statement is just an unconfirmable sensationalist judgement point. (You should be a journalist. ;))

Well, I was considering just writing in what's happened already: Beating the Packers twice, Favre playing his best football ever, and the Vikes being almost assured a bye in the playoffs. That's bad enough to consider it a major blunder. Add in a possible third victory over the Pack in the Playoffs, an NFC Championship, possibly Superbowl - well, you get the idea. Yes there are no guarantees, but what matters is how Favre is playing in Minnesota - so unfortunately it looks like TT is getting punked pretty good on the Favre situation. But there is still hope - the Pack could lay the lumber on the Vikes in the playoffs and the whole thing would turn on it's head. That's what I'm hoping for, but I don't think it's likely.

[mraynrand]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

Forgive me, but I don't see the punter as being anywhere close to one of TT's biggest blemishes. I'm on record in saying that I thought TT made the right call in the Favre/Rodgers situation. It was time to move on, IMO. However, if Favre goes and wins it all for the Vikings, well, then we're pretty much wrong - in a spectacular way - in the short term.

That being said, there are plenty of other blunders that are much larger than the punter. Not to say I don't think a lot of TT. well above average in the draft, so-so in pro-player/FA. Just don't think cutting Ryan is "one of his biggest blemishes." Not by a long shot.

Speaking to the bolded portion: you can't even say that conclusively, and nobody can say that conclusively because there's no guarantee that BF would be playing this well in GB. Maybe it's the domes, maybe it was him skipping minicamp that's kept him fresher. Maybe it took a bad year on the Jets that gave him a "Eureka" moment when it came to how he needed to play to still be effective. Whatever. That part's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is that you're comparing an actual to one of the several hypotheticals. So your bolded statement is just an unconfirmable sensationalist judgement point. (You should be a journalist. ;))

The fallout of the Green Bay Packers decision to replace Brett Favre with Aaron Rodgers cannot reflect poorly on Ted Thompson ' et all ' that were instrumentle in that decision. Yes Ted Thompsons fears were realized when Favre ended up with an arch rival. Yes the early reports on that may be glamorized or sensationalized as a poor reflection on Ted Thompson, but long term, TT and Aaron Rodgers cedrtainly now appears to be the best course. Aaron Rodgers isn't stumbling out of the gate. He's probably most responsible for saving Ted Thompson's butt.

As someone else mentioned, there are no guarantees. Rodgers could go in the tank next year. TT can certainly be judged on getting the Favre thing wrong, if that's the way it turns out. It's already bad enough as I've detailed, and it could get worse. If Rodgers leads the Packers beyond what Favre does this year (and next?) for Minnesota, then TT will be judged favorably.

[woodbuck27]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

Forgive me, but I don't see the punter as being anywhere close to one of TT's biggest blemishes. I'm on record in saying that I thought TT made the right call in the Favre/Rodgers situation. It was time to move on, IMO. However, if Favre goes and wins it all for the Vikings, well, then we're pretty much wrong - in a spectacular way - in the short term.

That being said, there are plenty of other blunders that are much larger than the punter. Not to say I don't think a lot of TT. well above average in the draft, so-so in pro-player/FA. Just don't think cutting Ryan is "one of his biggest blemishes." Not by a long shot.

Speaking to the bolded portion: you can't even say that conclusively, and nobody can say that conclusively because there's no guarantee that BF would be playing this well in GB. Maybe it's the domes, maybe it was him skipping minicamp that's kept him fresher. Maybe it took a bad year on the Jets that gave him a "Eureka" moment when it came to how he needed to play to still be effective. Whatever. That part's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is that you're comparing an actual to one of the several hypotheticals. So your bolded statement is just an unconfirmable sensationalist judgement point. (You should be a journalist. ;))

The fallout of the Green Bay Packers decision to replace Brett Favre with Aaron Rodgers cannot reflect poorly on Ted Thompson ' et all ' that were instrumentle in that decision. Yes Ted Thompsons fears were realized when Favre ended up with an arch rival. Yes the early reports on that may be glamorized or sensationalized as a poor reflection on Ted Thompson, but long term, TT and Aaron Rodgers cedrtainly now appears to be the best course. Aaron Rodgers isn't stumbling out of the gate. He's probably most responsible for saving Ted Thompson's butt.

As someone else mentioned, there are no guarantees. Rodgers could go in the tank next year. TT can certainly be judged on getting the Favre thing wrong, if that's the way it turns out. It's already bad enough as I've detailed, and it could get worse. If Rodgers leads the Packers beyond what Favre does this year (and next?) for Minnesota, then TT will be judged favorably.

Yup. It hinges to a great extent on how Aaron Rodgers performs overall and his contribution in terms of winning.

[Smidgeon]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

Forgive me, but I don't see the punter as being anywhere close to one of TT's biggest blemishes. I'm on record in saying that I thought TT made the right call in the Favre/Rodgers situation. It was time to move on, IMO. However, if Favre goes and wins it all for the Vikings, well, then we're pretty much wrong - in a spectacular way - in the short term.

That being said, there are plenty of other blunders that are much larger than the punter. Not to say I don't think a lot of TT. well above average in the draft, so-so in pro-player/FA. Just don't think cutting Ryan is "one of his biggest blemishes." Not by a long shot.

Speaking to the bolded portion: you can't even say that conclusively, and nobody can say that conclusively because there's no guarantee that BF would be playing this well in GB. Maybe it's the domes, maybe it was him skipping minicamp that's kept him fresher. Maybe it took a bad year on the Jets that gave him a "Eureka" moment when it came to how he needed to play to still be effective. Whatever. That part's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is that you're comparing an actual to one of the several hypotheticals. So your bolded statement is just an unconfirmable sensationalist judgement point. (You should be a journalist. ;))

Well, I was considering just writing in what's happened already: Beating the Packers twice, Favre playing his best football ever, and the Vikes being almost assured a bye in the playoffs. That's bad enough to consider it a major blunder. Add in a possible third victory over the Pack in the Playoffs, an NFC Championship, possibly Superbowl - well, you get the idea. Yes there are no guarantees, but what matters is how Favre is playing in Minnesota - so unfortunately it looks like TT is getting punked pretty good on the Favre situation. But there is still hope - the Pack could lay the lumber on the Vikes in the playoffs and the whole thing would turn on it's head. That's what I'm hoping for, but I don't think it's likely.

I would definitely agree that it looks like a blunder. On the surface, it appears as if it's an easy argument to say that "if he's playing this well in Minn, then he'd be playing this well in GB." But that argument avoids a lot of factors and a whole season of football. A lot of progression (both personal and professional) can occur in a year of football, and there are just too many possibilities to say that it was a blunder.

Let me pose an equal hypothetical to TT doing what he could to keep BF in GB as long as BF wanted: In doing so, he would have either a) kept an AR who needed to play in games to improve on the bench as he had peaked in practices thus stagnating his talent and never getting the opportunity to play him when he needed to play in order to continue his education as a QB, or b) trade AR to another team and hope that the next QB GB took in the draft (which ended up being Brohm) would work out and become the next QB of the future/BF understudy. I doubt the second scenario would have happened because BF was getting up there in age, but that's what GB's done before with their QBs (most noteably Hasselback). Now if he had taken the first option, who knows if when AR would have taken the field (after year 5 at least, maybe after year 6) he would still be young enough to be malleable as a QB as he would have spent an extra 2-3 (maybe more) years on the bench. Maybe instead he comes out peaked and doesn't improve anymore because he stagnated on the bench. In the second scenario, the next QB of the future would have been cut and sitting on Buffalo's roster. They'd be in even further desperate straits and this time with panic because there was no high draft pick ready to take over when Favre didn't unretire for the 3rd or 4th time.

But these are complete hypotheticals and not really arguments of value because we don't know what would have happened had TT done what he could to keep BF around. In the same way, your position that it's a blunder because BF is doing well is an equal hypothetical because we don't know how well he would have played had he stayed in GB. One could even argue that TT blundered by not trading BF directly to Minn because we don't know what Minn would have given up in trade value to GB. The year he spent on the Jets would have been in Minn, his arm would have been torn and he would have tanked the Viking's season last year. That's equally hypothetical. There are just way too many scenarios when you bring in "what might have been". The only things we really know for sure is that BF is playing better in Minn than he has in...ever, and AR appears to be the next great GB QB.

I'm not even sure you can call this a blunder in the short term because of how well AR is playing out of the gate (his first year starting only the second QB to throw for over 4k yards in that starting year; the first, Warner, has 2 MVP awards).

[Fritz]

How 'bout them special teams, huh? How 'bout 'em? Think they'll hold up Monday night?

Will they be the downfall of this year's edition of the Green Bay Packers?

[mraynrand]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

Forgive me, but I don't see the punter as being anywhere close to one of TT's biggest blemishes. I'm on record in saying that I thought TT made the right call in the Favre/Rodgers situation. It was time to move on, IMO. However, if Favre goes and wins it all for the Vikings, well, then we're pretty much wrong - in a spectacular way - in the short term.

That being said, there are plenty of other blunders that are much larger than the punter. Not to say I don't think a lot of TT. well above average in the draft, so-so in pro-player/FA. Just don't think cutting Ryan is "one of his biggest blemishes." Not by a long shot.

Speaking to the bolded portion: you can't even say that conclusively, and nobody can say that conclusively because there's no guarantee that BF would be playing this well in GB. Maybe it's the domes, maybe it was him skipping minicamp that's kept him fresher. Maybe it took a bad year on the Jets that gave him a "Eureka" moment when it came to how he needed to play to still be effective. Whatever. That part's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is that you're comparing an actual to one of the several hypotheticals. So your bolded statement is just an unconfirmable sensationalist judgement point. (You should be a journalist. ;))

Well, I was considering just writing in what's happened already: Beating the Packers twice, Favre playing his best football ever, and the Vikes being almost assured a bye in the playoffs. That's bad enough to consider it a major blunder. Add in a possible third victory over the Pack in the Playoffs, an NFC Championship, possibly Superbowl - well, you get the idea. Yes there are no guarantees, but what matters is how Favre is playing in Minnesota - so unfortunately it looks like TT is getting punked pretty good on the Favre situation. But there is still hope - the Pack could lay the lumber on the Vikes in the playoffs and the whole thing would turn on it's head. That's what I'm hoping for, but I don't think it's likely.

I would definitely agree that it looks like a blunder. On the surface, it appears as if it's an easy argument to say that "if he's playing this well in Minn, then he'd be playing this well in GB." But that argument avoids a lot of factors and a whole season of football. A lot of progression (both personal and professional) can occur in a year of football, and there are just too many possibilities to say that it was a blunder.

Let me pose an equal hypothetical to TT doing what he could to keep BF in GB as long as BF wanted: In doing so, he would have either a) kept an AR who needed to play in games to improve on the bench as he had peaked in practices thus stagnating his talent and never getting the opportunity to play him when he needed to play in order to continue his education as a QB, or b) trade AR to another team and hope that the next QB GB took in the draft (which ended up being Brohm) would work out and become the next QB of the future/BF understudy. I doubt the second scenario would have happened because BF was getting up there in age, but that's what GB's done before with their QBs (most noteably Hasselback). Now if he had taken the first option, who knows if when AR would have taken the field (after year 5 at least, maybe after year 6) he would still be young enough to be malleable as a QB as he would have spent an extra 2-3 (maybe more) years on the bench. Maybe instead he comes out peaked and doesn't improve anymore because he stagnated on the bench. In the second scenario, the next QB of the future would have been cut and sitting on Buffalo's roster. They'd be in even further desperate straits and this time with panic because there was no high draft pick ready to take over when Favre didn't unretire for the 3rd or 4th time.

But these are complete hypotheticals and not really arguments of value because we don't know what would have happened had TT done what he could to keep BF around. In the same way, your position that it's a blunder because BF is doing well is an equal hypothetical because we don't know how well he would have played had he stayed in GB. One could even argue that TT blundered by not trading BF directly to Minn because we don't know what Minn would have given up in trade value to GB. The year he spent on the Jets would have been in Minn, his arm would have been torn and he would have tanked the Viking's season last year. That's equally hypothetical. There are just way too many scenarios when you bring in "what might have been". The only things we really know for sure is that BF is playing better in Minn than he has in...ever, and AR appears to be the next great GB QB.

I'm not even sure you can call this a blunder in the short term because of how well AR is playing out of the gate (his first year starting only the second QB to throw for over 4k yards in that starting year; the first, Warner, has 2 MVP awards).

Wow. Forget all the hypotheticals. Thompson got rid of Favre and he is playing lights out for Minnesota. It looks bad, doesn't it?

[mraynrand]

How 'bout them special teams, huh? How 'bout 'em? Think they'll hold up Monday night?

Will they be the downfall of this year's edition of the Green Bay Packers?

I'd like to see Favre as a gunner for the Ravens. I'd like for the Packers to do a Special Teams on him.

As far as the Ravens, I'd like to see our FBs serve Ray Lewis a few Pancakes and shut his piehole.

[Smidgeon]

It's kinda funny that one of TT's biggest blemishes as GM is cutting a punter.

Joking, right?

Feel free to show be the part where I say "the biggest blemish" or "blemish bigger than Favre."

Forgive me, but I don't see the punter as being anywhere close to one of TT's biggest blemishes. I'm on record in saying that I thought TT made the right call in the Favre/Rodgers situation. It was time to move on, IMO. However, if Favre goes and wins it all for the Vikings, well, then we're pretty much wrong - in a spectacular way - in the short term.

That being said, there are plenty of other blunders that are much larger than the punter. Not to say I don't think a lot of TT. well above average in the draft, so-so in pro-player/FA. Just don't think cutting Ryan is "one of his biggest blemishes." Not by a long shot.

Speaking to the bolded portion: you can't even say that conclusively, and nobody can say that conclusively because there's no guarantee that BF would be playing this well in GB. Maybe it's the domes, maybe it was him skipping minicamp that's kept him fresher. Maybe it took a bad year on the Jets that gave him a "Eureka" moment when it came to how he needed to play to still be effective. Whatever. That part's irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is that you're comparing an actual to one of the several hypotheticals. So your bolded statement is just an unconfirmable sensationalist judgement point. (You should be a journalist. ;))

Well, I was considering just writing in what's happened already: Beating the Packers twice, Favre playing his best football ever, and the Vikes being almost assured a bye in the playoffs. That's bad enough to consider it a major blunder. Add in a possible third victory over the Pack in the Playoffs, an NFC Championship, possibly Superbowl - well, you get the idea. Yes there are no guarantees, but what matters is how Favre is playing in Minnesota - so unfortunately it looks like TT is getting punked pretty good on the Favre situation. But there is still hope - the Pack could lay the lumber on the Vikes in the playoffs and the whole thing would turn on it's head. That's what I'm hoping for, but I don't think it's likely.

I would definitely agree that it looks like a blunder. On the surface, it appears as if it's an easy argument to say that "if he's playing this well in Minn, then he'd be playing this well in GB." But that argument avoids a lot of factors and a whole season of football. A lot of progression (both personal and professional) can occur in a year of football, and there are just too many possibilities to say that it was a blunder.

Let me pose an equal hypothetical to TT doing what he could to keep BF in GB as long as BF wanted: In doing so, he would have either a) kept an AR who needed to play in games to improve on the bench as he had peaked in practices thus stagnating his talent and never getting the opportunity to play him when he needed to play in order to continue his education as a QB, or b) trade AR to another team and hope that the next QB GB took in the draft (which ended up being Brohm) would work out and become the next QB of the future/BF understudy. I doubt the second scenario would have happened because BF was getting up there in age, but that's what GB's done before with their QBs (most noteably Hasselback). Now if he had taken the first option, who knows if when AR would have taken the field (after year 5 at least, maybe after year 6) he would still be young enough to be malleable as a QB as he would have spent an extra 2-3 (maybe more) years on the bench. Maybe instead he comes out peaked and doesn't improve anymore because he stagnated on the bench. In the second scenario, the next QB of the future would have been cut and sitting on Buffalo's roster. They'd be in even further desperate straits and this time with panic because there was no high draft pick ready to take over when Favre didn't unretire for the 3rd or 4th time.

But these are complete hypotheticals and not really arguments of value because we don't know what would have happened had TT done what he could to keep BF around. In the same way, your position that it's a blunder because BF is doing well is an equal hypothetical because we don't know how well he would have played had he stayed in GB. One could even argue that TT blundered by not trading BF directly to Minn because we don't know what Minn would have given up in trade value to GB. The year he spent on the Jets would have been in Minn, his arm would have been torn and he would have tanked the Viking's season last year. That's equally hypothetical. There are just way too many scenarios when you bring in "what might have been". The only things we really know for sure is that BF is playing better in Minn than he has in...ever, and AR appears to be the next great GB QB.

I'm not even sure you can call this a blunder in the short term because of how well AR is playing out of the gate (his first year starting only the second QB to throw for over 4k yards in that starting year; the first, Warner, has 2 MVP awards).

Wow. Forget all the hypotheticals. Thompson got rid of Favre and he is playing lights out for Minnesota. It looks bad, doesn't it?

I'm not contesting that it looks bad. I'm contesting that it is bad. BF playing lights out in Minn is nearly irrelevant to whether or not TT made a blunder in his decision to trade him to the Jets.

[mraynrand]

I'm not contesting that it looks bad. I'm contesting that it is bad. BF playing lights out in Minn is nearly irrelevant to whether or not TT made a blunder in his decision to trade him to the Jets.

I disagree. If Favre were playing like crap, no one would think getting rid of him was the wrong move. That he is playing like an MVP, and for the Packers' number one rival makes it completely relevant. The only reason it isn't that bad is the way Rodgers is playing. The other thing that makes it look bad for Thompson is the critique that he didn't assemble a good enough squad around Favre to win. (Now don't go all crazy on this one - I could argue the opposite just as easily). Rather than continue to debate this, let's let the rest of the season play out because if Rodgers outplays Favre and beats him in a playoff game, or advances further in the playoffs, all this is moot.

[RashanGary]

Favre had a subtle arrogance about him, about his play, that I don't many in Green Bay were able to see.

I think what happened really humbled Favre. he's playing better than ever in Minny, and let's face it, they have the better team. Tavaris Jackson lead them to the playoffs last year over the Packers.


I do think the Packers let go the guy with the talent to play better at the moment, but the attitude that came with it and how he would have played here. I don't think he'd have the humility he has now or the drive he has now, or the surrounding cast he has now if he was still here.

He's a damn fine football player, still great in a different way that he used to be, but us keeping him, the way he was acting, the things that happened. . . I don't think it was much of a choice, either bend over for Favre and give up the team or set some limits of what is acceptable/unacceptable from the highest paid player. Brett's like a spoiled Bratt who was finally told no. He learned. Best for both sides IMO. He needed that. It sucks, but sometimes your best salesman turns into an arrogant A-hole and you feel it's hurting the team more than his worth. It just sucks when that happens, but I think that's what happened. He went to antoher company with hunger and humility and now he's tearing it up. Good for him, but it doesn't erase what was happening here and doesn't mean there was anything we could have done, outside this wakeup call, to make it work here.

[Smidgeon]

I'm not contesting that it looks bad. I'm contesting that it is bad. BF playing lights out in Minn is nearly irrelevant to whether or not TT made a blunder in his decision to trade him to the Jets.

I disagree. If Favre were playing like crap, no one would think getting rid of him was the wrong move. That he is playing like an MVP, and for the Packers' number one rival makes it completely relevant. The only reason it isn't that bad is the way Rodgers is playing. The other thing that makes it look bad for Thompson is the critique that he didn't assemble a good enough squad around Favre to win. (Now don't go all crazy on this one - I could argue the opposite just as easily). Rather than continue to debate this, let's let the rest of the season play out because if Rodgers outplays Favre and beats him in a playoff game, or advances further in the playoffs, all this is moot.

Granted that people wouldn't be questioning if it was a blunder if BF was bombing in Minn. But that would only prove that it wasn't a blunder to move on. But there are still way too many issues and variables to say categorically that is was a blunder, even if he is playing well. But there's a difference between perception and reality, and I surmise that you're arguing the perception angle whilst I'm arguing the reality angle. Oh well, different perspectives.

[RashanGary]

On a side note, I'm hoping they fall short this year. I hate to see those actions pay off for people. And then the slime ball, Chilly, yeah, I don't root for them.


I have mad respect for many of the Vikes, just those two, I don't want to see dishonesty and arrogance pay off.

[mraynrand]

I'm not contesting that it looks bad. I'm contesting that it is bad. BF playing lights out in Minn is nearly irrelevant to whether or not TT made a blunder in his decision to trade him to the Jets.

I disagree. If Favre were playing like crap, no one would think getting rid of him was the wrong move. That he is playing like an MVP, and for the Packers' number one rival makes it completely relevant. The only reason it isn't that bad is the way Rodgers is playing. The other thing that makes it look bad for Thompson is the critique that he didn't assemble a good enough squad around Favre to win. (Now don't go all crazy on this one - I could argue the opposite just as easily). Rather than continue to debate this, let's let the rest of the season play out because if Rodgers outplays Favre and beats him in a playoff game, or advances further in the playoffs, all this is moot.

Granted that people wouldn't be questioning if it was a blunder if BF was bombing in Minn. But that would only prove that it wasn't a blunder to move on. But there are still way too many issues and variables to say categorically that is was a blunder, even if he is playing well. But there's a difference between perception and reality, and I surmise that you're arguing the perception angle whilst I'm arguing the reality angle. Oh well, different perspectives.

Defining 'blunder' as not working out the best for the Packers, I'll just have to quote another Packerrat: "Too soon to tell."

[Smidgeon]

I'm not contesting that it looks bad. I'm contesting that it is bad. BF playing lights out in Minn is nearly irrelevant to whether or not TT made a blunder in his decision to trade him to the Jets.

I disagree. If Favre were playing like crap, no one would think getting rid of him was the wrong move. That he is playing like an MVP, and for the Packers' number one rival makes it completely relevant. The only reason it isn't that bad is the way Rodgers is playing. The other thing that makes it look bad for Thompson is the critique that he didn't assemble a good enough squad around Favre to win. (Now don't go all crazy on this one - I could argue the opposite just as easily). Rather than continue to debate this, let's let the rest of the season play out because if Rodgers outplays Favre and beats him in a playoff game, or advances further in the playoffs, all this is moot.

Granted that people wouldn't be questioning if it was a blunder if BF was bombing in Minn. But that would only prove that it wasn't a blunder to move on. But there are still way too many issues and variables to say categorically that is was a blunder, even if he is playing well. But there's a difference between perception and reality, and I surmise that you're arguing the perception angle whilst I'm arguing the reality angle. Oh well, different perspectives.

Defining 'blunder' as not working out the best for the Packers, I'll just have to quote another Packerrat: "Too soon to tell."

And I'll simply say we'll never know.

[Fosco33]

I fed the net avg falling to Pelissero a few weeks back... no more goats I guess. Wish we had Ryan still.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PUNTING&season=2009&seasonType=REG

Today as punters in the NFL Jon Ryan (Seattle) is ranked 8th while Jeremy Kampinos (Green Bay) is ranked 24th.

The argument may be? That if Jon Ryan was still in Green Bay he'd be ranked about 24th. Jon Ryan is a maturing punter in the NFL and he came to the NFL with outstanding promise and results from the CFL. :D

I hear ya Ed.

My friend played with Frost in N. Iowa. He told Frost about this and he laughed. Apparently his avg in the UFL was still 42-44 this year. But now he's a day trader - life of a below avg punter...

[Packers4Ever]

Football Outsiders has the Packer Special Teams at 32nd this week. I have no spin or kool-aid here. They stink. I think wist should stop worrying about the defense and figure out why the Packers can't draft, trade or waiver wire for Special Teams.

Wow. That's really sickening... We have no chance for anything with ST's playing that way. We might as well fold up and quit right now.


No no no, never say die, :wink: I'm very sure MM is watching carefully, he couldn't possibly miss such sickening play. Bet we'll see new coaching on ST next year ??

[Tyrone Bigguns]

If the fault is Slocums, please explain the career of Bobby April.

He's been ST coach of the year twice and coached ST for 3 NFL teams and has a ton of experience.

If MM would hire him, we could blame some other factor for shitty ST play?

Nope. Missed the point.

Please explain his tenure with the Rams vs. Buffalo.

OK Ty.

Yer the genius and I, the dullard.

Did see April get a little too involved last night.

He was coaching like a madman when he got knocked flat on his ass on the sidelines.

Say what? I wasn't implying anything about smarts or dullards.

Nor was i asking or commenting on his coaching at this moment.

I'll spell it out. April's ST in St. Lou weren't good, and he was canned.

His special teams in Buffalo have been tremendous.

St. Lou had better teams record wise and worse ST. Buffalo has worse teams record wise, but better ST.

I'm merely pointing out that placing ST blame on Slocum may be misguided.

[SnakeLH2006]

Who cares about Slocum. Blame McFatty. He's the head guy who hired them. The ST is atrochious. PR, KR, Defensive PR-KR contain, punt net, FG's...This all goes on McFatty. He hired them.

McFatty's hires are very bad for coaches (he sticks with Campy for OL too) and the best hire for coaches was made by TT....Dom Capers. Damn glad he's our D-coordinater...

Heard some stat, where when he takes over the DC position, his teams are top 5 every year. Well, let Snake congrat TT, good 2009 draft, and good pick there with Capers as DC. Let's hope him or Cowher is our coach next year.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Who cares about Slocum. Blame McFatty. He's the head guy who hired them. The ST is atrochious. PR, KR, Defensive PR-KR contain, punt net, FG's...This all goes on McFatty. He hired them.

McFatty's hires are very bad for coaches (he sticks with Campy for OL too) and the best hire for coaches was made by TT....Dom Capers. Damn glad he's our D-coordinater...

Heard some stat, where when he takes over the DC position, his teams are top 5 every year. Well, let Snake congrat TT, good 2009 draft, and good pick there with Capers as DC. Let's hope him or Cowher is our coach next year.

This guy is available. One of the best ST coaches of all time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Avezzano

[Fritz]

In truth it's probably complicated. Maybe losing a guy like Swain messes up the special teams as much as losing Harris might mess up the D, but because it's "only" special teams, no one puts much stock into the loss of a guy like Swain.

Since it's so complicated, it's much easier - and much more fun - to just blame some guy you don't know.

We've narrowed it down to Jarrett Bush and Shawn Slocum.

Some people want to go up the ladder - not Slocum, the guy who hired Slocum - McCarthy. If you pursue this line, then who's the idiot who hired McCarthy? Thompson. But wait, who's his boss? Murphy? Let's shit can that dude - special teams is his fault!

Wait a sec. Let's take the next step - who owns this damn team, anyway?

Oh - we do. Damn - atrocious special teams play is our fault, people!

Let's fire us! Get some new owners in here!