Offensive Line Theory #245

[pbmax]

Body Type.

Dom Capers came in and while saying all the right things about fitting the scheme to the players and working to their strengths, he also mentioned in his opening press conference that they would have different body type ideals for a front seven than a traditional 4-3 would and that these requests would need to be passed along to the personnel department to use when evaluating defensive talent. Judging from Matthews, Raji, Jones and to a lesser extent Obiozor, they seemed to have meshed.

McCarthy and Jeff JustHoldOnaMinuteIamInterviewingForAnotherShortTer mJobJagodzinski came in at year one and had to do something similar with running backs and O lineman. McCarthy had never run this rushing attack and Jags was never the O Coord of such an attack. Is it possible that they were not as successful in communicating their needs to the personnel side?

Question 2, more important than the first, since Jags left after year 1 (before the offseason began in earnest) did any hope of quickly getting this correct leave with him?

But perhaps the missing piece to the puzzle is Question 3: Did McCarthy's decision to move slowly away from the ZBS from year 2 on have an effect like changing a coordinator on the O line in terms of personnel acquiring talent that fit the body type needs of the new-to-them scheme?

They spent two years drafting and collecting line talent for one system. It was a new system for them, new enough that there were probably some miscalculations for players with the new body type. Then they modify/switch schemes to be more power oriented and traditional. It takes time to acquire and develop the new correct body type talent. But it seems to have had the following effect:

Lang and Sitton are both clearly succeeding where earlier picks struggled (Colledge, Spitz, Giacomini). Are they simply now, in year four and five, doing a better job of identifying the correct body type for the lineman they want? And is it possible that without Jags, these players and scheme fit better with their coaches than the earlier talent?

[Partial]

Good post. You raise a valid question. Sitton and Lang definitely look like the real deal.

[hoosier]

Is Sitton now really looking better than Colledge in the last half of '08 or Spitz during '07 and '08? This is a sincere question, as I haven't watched enough of GB this year to have a sense of how the different parts of the OL are peforming. And relying on JSO in forming impressions is a trying experience.

But another way of looking at things, it seems to me, is that the only consistent pattern the GB OL has shown under McCarthy is inconsistency. The coaches called Spitz their most reliable lineman last year, but this year he seemed to be struggling even before he got hurt. Colledge is notorious for being up and down from one game to another. Are we sure that the left hand has finally figured out what the right hand is doing with Sitton and Lang? Maybe next year those two will look like Colledge this year.

[RashanGary]

Interesting theory and I think you might be on to something here.

Sitton and Lang were different from the lineman we've been taking and early indications show they're probably better. Hopefully we stick with this "bigger is better" philosophy. I don't think we need 350 lb hogs, but 320 lbers that can move is a lot better than the 295ers.

[bobblehead]

Hoosier, there is one HUGE difference in Lang and Sitton that I see that makes me believe they are better than College/Babre/Spitz et al. These guys are scrappers. When Lang gets beat he doesn't stand there with his thumb up his ass, he fights to reposition and scraps til the whistle. With the others when they miss, they stand and watch ARod make one move, then another, then get sacked. If Lang misses but ARod avoids the guy, you can damn well bet that Lang will be right back on top of his guy immediately.

OL is a position of grit and determination and I am just not sure College has it...and Cliffy just doesn't have the mobility to recover when he gets beat any more. Wells, Sitton, and Lang are battlers that will make up the center/right part of the line for the next 10 years I think. College may or may not stay the LG, but we need a new LT....Loved cliffy, but he just can't do it anymore.

[Zool]

God I hope Wells isn't around for 10 more years. I get tired of seeing him get blown up in the middle. Maybe you meant Spitz?

[MichiganPackerFan]

God I hope Wells isn't around for 10 more years. I get tired of seeing him get blown up in the middle. Maybe you meant Spitz?

I'm sorry, I just don't see this a lot. Wells is usually assignment sure. He's had a bad game or two, but I just don't think he's the turnstile you make him out to be.

[Fritz]

I would agree with the theory, PB, except that I think Hoosier makes a good point: Colledge seemed to improve and play really well at the end of last year, and now he's gone backward.

Then again, maybe he's changed his body type - gained weight or something - and it's not working for him. I dunno.

I hope you are right because that would mean the Pack has a better chance of drafting the next left tackle now. One that would actually work out.

How's ol' Jamon Meredith doing in Boofalo? Anybody know?

[mraynrand]

Then again, maybe he's (Colledge) changed his body type - gained weight or something - and it's not working for him. I dunno.

Waldo has argued that 10 extra pounds has made Colledge more sluggish. If true, lose those ten pounds. I've got some Glymetrol he can use.

http://www.quick2you.com/store/product-images/cats67/glymetrol-small.jpg

[bobblehead]

God I hope Wells isn't around for 10 more years. I get tired of seeing him get blown up in the middle. Maybe you meant Spitz?

I'm sorry, I just don't see this a lot. Wells is usually assignment sure. He's had a bad game or two, but I just don't think he's the turnstile you make him out to be.

yea, I virtually never see this. Last year when he was hurt he had a few bad games, but I watch the OL a lot and I don't think I screamed "Fucking Wells" once this year. Wish I could say that about anyone else (although I scream very rarely about Sitton).

[Fosco33]

Bills have had numerous starting lineman hurt this year. Meredith started a few games then sprained his knee a few games back. I haven't heard/watched any since then but don't think he's starting anymore.

[ThunderDan]

Then again, maybe he's (Colledge) changed his body type - gained weight or something - and it's not working for him. I dunno.

Waldo has argued that 10 extra pounds has made Colledge more sluggish. If true, lose those ten pounds. I've got some Glymetrol he can use.

http://www.quick2you.com/store/product-images/cats67/glymetrol-small.jpg

I would suggest Starcaps!

[Smidgeon]

Then again, maybe he's (Colledge) changed his body type - gained weight or something - and it's not working for him. I dunno.

Waldo has argued that 10 extra pounds has made Colledge more sluggish. If true, lose those ten pounds. I've got some Glymetrol he can use.

I would suggest Starcaps!

Might as well use it while nobody's getting punished for it...

[cheesner]

Then again, maybe he's (Colledge) changed his body type - gained weight or something - and it's not working for him. I dunno.

Waldo has argued that 10 extra pounds has made Colledge more sluggish. If true, lose those ten pounds. I've got some Glymetrol he can use.

I would suggest Starcaps!

Might as well use it while nobody's getting punished for it...
That is only for Vikings to get away with - apparently a state law trumps a sports rule.

Say, I wonder if WI can enact a law where it is illegal to call a holding penalty?

[Smidgeon]

Then again, maybe he's (Colledge) changed his body type - gained weight or something - and it's not working for him. I dunno.

Waldo has argued that 10 extra pounds has made Colledge more sluggish. If true, lose those ten pounds. I've got some Glymetrol he can use.

I would suggest Starcaps!

Might as well use it while nobody's getting punished for it...
That is only for Vikings to get away with - apparently a state law trumps a sports rule.

Say, I wonder if WI can enact a law where it is illegal to call a holding penalty?

The Saints players haven't been punished either. Not yet.

[KYPack]

That whole Starcaps deal will filter up into the ozone, I guess.

I always thought that was a bum deal, but I hoped the Vikings would get royally fucked by it!

[Waldo]

Every team in the league wants 5 (or more) offensive lineman that are 6'5", 315 lb, can run about a 5.0 flat 40, run cones in the mid 7's, run a shuttle in the mid 4's, have 34"+ arms, and can put up 30+ reps, are very smart, and have outstanding balance. Guys like this can play all 5 positions at an elite level, and execute any blocking scheme.

Problem is, these guys are scarce, you might get a guy or two in a good year that measures out like that that comes from a big program and can ball. Jason Smith was the closest last year.

To build a line then, what kind of trade offs are you willing to make? Need the power over everything? Less ideal prospects can be a little bigger, especially at G, and don't need to be as athletic. Need the athleticism? You'll have to sacrifice size if you can't get your hands on an ideal prospect.

The sacrifices determine where they play. Shorter arms can get by at G and still play elite, as well as shorter guys. Shorter and lighter guys do well at C, as long as they have the athleticism. The close but not good enough athletes make better G's, and can get even better then by getting bigger. Close on just about everything but 1 key item, stick 'em on the right.

The last two years Ted has gotten his hands on two guys very close to the overall OL ideal. Sitton and Lang's arms are a little short, and each is a hair short, but that is about it. Both have the size and the athleticism. It just so happens that they came from small schools and were a little overlooked. Sitton was invited to nothing, neither the combine nor any of the all star games.

This was said immediately after the Sitton pick by a major Packer blog:

The Green Bay Packers select Central Florida T Josh Sitton. This is a reach as Sitton was not highly rated by New Era Scouting or Rivals.com . But if the guy works out, that doesn't matter except the Packers could have still taken Sitton in the 7th round and taken someone more highly regarded in this spot.

TJ Lang is the exact same way, except that he was invited to an all star game (Shrine game I believe)(not the combine), and was known because of Larry English. First rounder pass rusher tape gets around, and Lang had faced English multiple times. Lang was an extremely similar prospect to Sitton though. Sitton was RT (for a LH QB I believe), and Lang was LT.

If either Lang or Sitton would have went to Alabama or USC, they would have been 1st-2nd rounders. Each has pro bowl OG measurables, right there with Mack, Wood, and Unger (I understand that they were C's, but college G's aren't drafted too often, most pro G's were C's or T's in college). It is typical draft day talkingheadspeak to call all small school prospects raw, but Sitton and Lang have been pretty good from the start.

Last year when I went through the all draft eligible prospects, I made a list of all the prospects that had the athleticism (I was looking for a <7.6 3C, and a <4.6 SS, or close) and were close to or greater than 310 and 6'4" or taller.

Who I got:
J. Smith - Closest to ideal
M. Oher - Dumb
A. Mack - Not ideally athletic, not great balance
E. Wood - Not great balance
M. Unger - Short arms
S. Vollmer - Small school, back injury history
T. Lang - Small school, short arms
J. Bell - Small school, not great balance, dumb
L. Murtha - Very tall, very injury prone, underachiever
J. Valdez - Played OG, short arms, underachiever

Incidentally, the first OL off the board, the top 2 LT's drafted (by play), the top 3 C's (all 3 were day 1 starters, 2 of them at G), and 4 other guys. 3 first rounders, 3 second rounders, and 4 other dudes. Of the 4 other guys, we got Lang, none of the others were drafted, Bell was cut and is a free agent, Murtha made the Dolphins as an UDFA, and Valdez is on the Falcon's PS.

That exact same criteria would have also picked out Sitton, Spitz, Coston, Moll. Barbre, Colledge, and Giacomini were light, Meredith wasn't as athletic and was small.

I don't think that Ted is looking for a different model of player, I just think that he hasn't been in a position to draft ideal guys. In the '08 draft there was nothing after our first pick until Sitton, in '07 again there was nothing around our picks, Barbre was light but crazy athletic, he got the closest he could in '06 around our picks. Good big boys are rare, on both sides of the ball. Especially when you take the tape approach with a grain of salt and use the stopwatch and ruler approach with the tape approach.

Ted has never passed on a close to ideal OL prospect in the current tier, and has reached a tier for a couple others (if using the standard elite, 1st rd ish, 2-3 rd ish, 4th-5th rd ish, 6+ tier system).

[RashanGary]

Waldo, I think you're one of hte most unique, interesting posters out there. I've learned a lot from you.


I don't know that the draft is exact of a science as you sometimes make it out to be. Andre Smith, for example, didn't meet your criteria, yet there were SEVERAL sec standout DL that, when asked, said Andre Smith was the best player they've played against.

For some reason, I'll take 4 or 5 star defenders that have played him and madly respect him over a few numbers.

Head-case aside, I think Andre Smith is the most talented lineman drafted last year (more talented than Jason Smith or BJ Raji) based on what people who played him think. Of course, I don't put in the research or time that you do so I could very well be wrong.

More than any number you gave, I had my own reason to love the Sitton pick two years ago. Unlike Patrick Lee and Jeremy Thompson who Thompson said were good athletes (fit yoru descriptions), Thompson had a different sort of praise for Sitton. He said, "he get's his block". With Nelson he said, "He catches the ball and makes things happen with the ball".

Guys who make it happen on the field; Jordy Nelson (not explosive enough), Andre Smith, Ray Rice, Kenny Britt (big fan of last year), Curtis Lofton (too slow), Bob Sanders (too small), etc. . . Those guys are the guys who will be good players. You can try to narrow it down with numbers, but I don't think it does much. I woudl start with game tape and then barely change that after the numbers come out and maybe rely a little more on the numbers for small school guys or guys that haven't played a lot like Matthews.

[rbaloha1]

The zbs requires different type of o-linemen. Agility and athleticism are rated higher than prototypical NFL o-line size (recall the Alex Gibb lines from the Broncos super bowl years)

Colledge fit the zbs criteria but thats where it ends. Inconsistent play means Colledge should not be resigned.

The Packers are running more power stuff -- Sitton and Colledege fit the mold -- assignment sure and tough.

[RashanGary]

1a. Game tape
1b. Coaches and peers praise
1c. Character (all different types of good guys, but not lazy or a criminal)






2. Combine numbers





If you find great players that are praised high and low by those who coached them and played against them, the measurables have a funny way of working out.

[Smidgeon]

The zbs requires different type of o-linemen. Agility and athleticism are rated higher than prototypical NFL o-line size (recall the Alex Gibb lines from the Broncos super bowl years)

Colledge fit the zbs criteria but thats where it ends. Inconsistent play means Colledge should not be resigned.

The Packers are running more power stuff -- Sitton and Colledege fit the mold -- assignment sure and tough.

Care to clarify?

[cheesner]

1a. Game tape
1b. Coaches and peers praise
1c. Character (all different types of good guys, but not lazy or a criminal)






2. Combine numbers





If you find great players that are praised high and low by those who coached them and played against them, the measurables have a funny way of working out.

Not sure you can trust coaches. The more kids that get drafted, the better their program looks - the better their recruiting will go.

There are so many variables to look at:
1. Is the player being used wrong
2. Is the player getting the proper coaching
3. Is the player behind developmentally because of better players in front of him, injury, etc.

All these things will distort tape.

Plain and simple, the combine numbers are a excellent gage on how athletic a player is. Athleticism is an important component to a players success in the NFL. Many coaches and GMs realize that you can't teach athleticism or heart, but all the other aspects of a player, you can.

[Waldo]

1a. Game tape
1b. Coaches and peers praise
1c. Character (all different types of good guys, but not lazy or a criminal)






2. Combine numbers





If you find great players that are praised high and low by those who coached them and played against them, the measurables have a funny way of working out.

You may think so, but Ted doesn't.

Raji has one of the highest size:speed ratios of any DT to come out this decade (T Harris and K Williams are slightly higher)

Matthews ran one of the fastest 10 yd splits ever clocked for a 240+ lb person, at any position. Incidentally, Ted did draft the fastest 230+ lb person ever clocked, Deshawn Wynn.

Allen Barbre's combine workout was legendary good.

I picked out Lang as TT's target a month before the draft, simply with his workout #'s.

Ted has never taken a CB shorter than 6'0", or one that ran >4.49.

Nick Collins is one of the fastest S's in the league. Rouse was an almost physical clone of Taylor Mays, though about .05 sec to .1 sec slower.

Ted took the 2nd fastest WR in the 2007 draft, Clowney, who was nothing more than a number on a stopwatch, he had no route running or catching ability.

Almost every elite RB that had size (210+) since the start of the combine ran less than 1.53 in their 10 yd split. Ted has never drafted a RB slower.

At DE, Ted likes long arms. Monty's are some the longest in the league. Wynn's aren't too far off, Jeremy Thompson's are freakishly long as well.

Thomson, B. Jones, and Matthews, every rusher TT has drafted (Jason Hunter too) has been crazy fast, even as rushers go.

.......

I didn't key onto this until it was pointed out that Ted is a #'s drafter by Michael Lombardi. Sure enough. He clearly values tape, but Ted RARELY takes guys with mediocre #'s, he'll reach for good #'s before he grabs what is viewed to be great value but bad numbers. The really notable poor #'s guy that Ted took that was all tape was Abdul Hodge. When you really dig in to the numbers and compare them to other players taken in the drafts over Ted's GB tenure, it is shocking how often the best player at this or that is a Packer. Best 3C out of a linebacker last year....he's now our starting LOLB.

Face it, Ted is a lot closer to Crazy Al in draft philospohy than people care to believe.

[Smidgeon]

You may think so, but Ted doesn't.

Raji has one of the highest size:speed ratios of any DT to come out this decade (T Harris and K Williams are slightly higher)

Matthews ran one of the fastest 10 yd splits ever clocked for a 240+ lb person, at any position. Incidentally, Ted did draft the fastest 230+ lb person ever clocked, Deshawn Wynn.

Allen Barbre's combine workout was legendary good.

I picked out Lang as TT's target a month before the draft, simply with his workout #'s.

Ted has never taken a CB shorter than 6'0", or one that ran >4.49.

Nick Collins is one of the fastest S's in the league. Rouse was an almost physical clone of Taylor Mays, though about .05 sec to .1 sec slower.

Ted took the 2nd fastest WR in the 2007 draft, Clowney, who was nothing more than a number on a stopwatch, he had no route running or catching ability.

Almost every elite RB that had size (210+) since the start of the combine ran less than 1.53 in their 10 yd split. Ted has never drafted a RB slower.

At DE, Ted likes long arms. Monty's are some the longest in the league. Wynn's aren't too far off, Jeremy Thompson's are freakishly long as well.

Thomson, B. Jones, and Matthews, every rusher TT has drafted (Jason Hunter too) has been crazy fast, even as rushers go.

.......

I didn't key onto this until it was pointed out that Ted is a #'s drafter by Michael Lombardi. Sure enough. He clearly values tape, but Ted RARELY takes guys with mediocre #'s, he'll reach for good #'s before he grabs what is viewed to be great value but bad numbers. The really notable poor #'s guy that Ted took that was all tape was Abdul Hodge. When you really dig in to the numbers and compare them to other players taken in the drafts over Ted's GB tenure, it is shocking how often the best player at this or that is a Packer. Best 3C out of a linebacker last year....he's now our starting LOLB.

Face it, Ted is a lot closer to Crazy Al in draft philospohy than people care to believe.

Fascinating stuff. Got any more of these nuggets?

[RashanGary]

Ted has taken some top athletes that weren't good football players and I'm really disappointed in that. Hopefully he can focus a little more on just taking guys who kick ass on the field. They tend to be good athletes anyway.

I'll say this,

All good football players are good football players

Not all good athletes are good football players



At times, playmakers will come available. No need to take trash because your blinded in yoru search for treasure. If you keep grabbing good/great college players, the NFL playmakers will hit along the way.

[Smidgeon]

Ted has taken some top athletes that weren't good football players and I'm really disappointed in that. Hopefully he can focus a little more on just taking guys who kick ass on the field. They tend to be good athletes anyway.

I'll say this,

All good football players are good football players

Not all good athletes are good football players



At times, playmakers will come available. No need to take trash because your blinded in yoru search for treasure. If you keep grabbing good/great players, the playmakers will hit too.

Well, isn't the trick finding out which "good football players" in college can translate to "good football players" in the pros? You know perfectly well that there are far more college gamers who can't do it in the pros than there are ones that translate perfectly. Likewise, you hear stories here and there about players who didn't play ball in high school or didn't play until their college senior year, but end up playing well in the pros. Yours is a circular argument: TT needs to draft good football players because they're good football players. That's the metaphorical equivalent of saying "I like spaghetti because it's spaghetti." There's no logic trail there, just a logic circle that depends on the conclusion to build the antecedent.

[RashanGary]

Yeah. I see what you're saying.

How about this, take guys who show talent on the field that you are looking for in an NFL player.

Not so much just good college players, but players who's game you think translates well to the NFL. If you focus on that, I think you end up with a lot of really good athletes anyway.

[RashanGary]

Last year I was a big Kenny Britt fan because I saw him catch a lot of balls in traffic, saw him track non-perfect passes in the air and saw him adjust quickly to throws that were low, high or off to the side and make all of those catches. I think receivers that really catch well tend to play well in the NFL.


Measurables count, but the evaluation has to start on the football field. I'd say a guy should never move up more than a round off the grade you gave him on the field because of measurables. I could see dropping a guy who just tested out as a really poor athlete, but don't bump guys way up just because of numbers. If they're average on the college field, they'll probably be bad in the NFL. A 4.4 40 yd dash shouldn't change that.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Last year I was a big Kenny Britt fan because I saw him catch a lot of balls in traffic, saw him track non-perfect passes in the air and saw him adjust quickly to throws that were low, high or off to the side and make all of those catches. I think receivers that really catch well tend to play well in the NFL.


Measurables count, but the evaluation has to start on the football field. I'd say a guy should never move up more than a round off the grade you gave him on the field because of measurables. I could see dropping a guy who just tested out as a really poor athlete, but don't bump guys way up just because of numbers. If they're average on the college field, they'll probably be bad in the NFL. A 4.4 40 yd dash shouldn't change that.

It is relatively rare that a workout warrior moves up signficantly up the board.

What is kinda funny is that a buy you liked, was evaluated on the field..and was easy to see him taking plays off and had a primadona attitude.

[Waldo]

Yeah. I see what you're saying.

How about this, take guys who show talent on the field that you are looking for in an NFL player.

If the "just watch the tape" method was that good, there would be very few misses in the draft.

Take for example last year, pass rush OLB's:

1) Larry English, he's the most tenacious and consistently productive pass rusher in the draft. Has been his whole career. Overall though, pretty slow for an NFL pass rusher and linebacker. Measurables are very much on the fringe of being acceptable for the NFL level, though there is no distinct red flad.

2) Everette Brown, the leading major program sack artist, with lots of examples of him giving top LT prospects fits and beating them. His combine explosion drills and agility drills were very, very bad, a joke really.

3) Clay Matthews, not really noted as a sack artist in college, marginal experience, though he worked hard and did get there a few times as a senior. Performed no worse than NFL adequate at any drill (his VJ and bench weren't great), however scorched it on the agility drills and 10 yd split.

4) Brain Orakpo, not quite the sack artist Brown and English are, but close. In the #'s that you look at to project pass rushing success, the speed and explosion drills, Orakpo does well, excelling in the explosion drills. He performs adequate at all other drills as well, with no big blemishes.

5) Robert Ayers, supposedly looked eye poppingly good on tape, though he didn't have great production #'s in college. His workouts were laughably bad.

You can take your production and tape. Have fun with Everette Brown. I'll stick to the stopwatch and ruler, in addition to the production and tape, and have them ranked 1) Orakpo, 2) Matthews, 3)English, DND) Brown, DND) Ayers.

Production and tape matter too. Ted isn't the kind of idiot that will reach for #'s (that much), he just doesn't seem to bother taking guys that performed marginally or poorly in workouts. Good and bad workouts can be found everywhere in the draft.

There is a lot of value having the stopwatch tell you that AD cannot beat your OLB to the corner, that there is no WR in the division that can beat your FS deep.

If you were given Brad Jones' height, 3C, 10 yd, and 40 yd (generally seen as the #'s that matter for a CB), most would conclude that you are looking at a 2nd-3rd round CB that might have to be moved to FS (a la Rolle) at the NFL level to excel, having the quickness and agility to be elite, just lacking the deep speed to hang with the burners on go routes. A 7th round outside linebacker / pass rusher, LOL, he'd be a dynamo in coverage, having the physical ability to at least hang with starting WR's. It is any surprise that he has surpassed Pops and Thompson on the depth chart?

Do you think that it is luck that virtually every player that Ted has drafted, plus a good # of his UDFA's, are still playing in this league, if not with us then elsewhere.

[Maxie the Taxi]

My 2009 Draft Wish List had Larry English on top...

But I like Ted's actual choices a whole lot better. :)


Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:06 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1A Larry English, DE, N. Illinois

1B Brandon Pettigrew, TE, Oklahoma State

2A Tyson Jackson, DE, LSU

2B Robert Ayers, OLB, Tennessee

3A Connor Barwin, OLB, Cincinnati

3B Ron Brace, NG, Boston College

4A Chase Coffman, TE, Missouri

4B David Veikune, OLB, Hawaii

5A Robert Brewster, OT, Ball State

5B Greg Peach, DE, Eastern Washington

[pbmax]

To build a line then, what kind of trade offs are you willing to make? Need the power over everything? Less ideal prospects can be a little bigger, especially at G, and don't need to be as athletic. Need the athleticism? You'll have to sacrifice size if you can't get your hands on an ideal prospect.
This is preceisely where I would suspect the change to show up. If McCarthy had requested larger or more powerful (though I have never seen it attributed to him by quote), then the lineman (esp. drafted later) will be missing some other attribute. If they are moving away from ZBS, then I would expect the agility/althletic numbers to come down or be of slightly less importance.



The last two years Ted has gotten his hands on two guys very close to the overall OL ideal. Sitton and Lang's arms are a little short, and each is a hair short, but that is about it. Both have the size and the athleticism. It just so happens that they came from small schools and were a little overlooked. Sitton was invited to nothing, neither the combine nor any of the all star games.

Can you post the numbers for Ted's O Line draft picks for comparison's sake?

[Fritz]

If Thompson would pay more attention to the Packerrats, he would also be comparing the size of various players' cojones.

[MichiganPackerFan]

If Thompson would pay more attention to the Packerrats, he would also be comparing the size of various players' cojones.

Please do not invite the opportunity for Skin to post related "art".

[Mazzin]

Ted has taken some top athletes that weren't good football players and I'm really disappointed in that. Hopefully he can focus a little more on just taking guys who kick ass on the field. They tend to be good athletes anyway.

I'll say this,

All good football players are good football players

Not all good athletes are good football players



At times, playmakers will come available. No need to take trash because your blinded in yoru search for treasure. If you keep grabbing good/great college players, the NFL playmakers will hit along the way.

So I'm confused, are all good football players good athletes?

[MJZiggy]

If Thompson would pay more attention to the Packerrats, he would also be comparing the size of various players' cojones.

That's MY job!!

Thank you.

[pbmax]

Ted has taken some top athletes that weren't good football players and I'm really disappointed in that. Hopefully he can focus a little more on just taking guys who kick ass on the field. They tend to be good athletes anyway.

I'll say this,

All good football players are good football players

Not all good athletes are good football players



At times, playmakers will come available. No need to take trash because your blinded in yoru search for treasure. If you keep grabbing good/great college players, the NFL playmakers will hit along the way.
Jason White, Chris Weinke and Matt Leinart would like to take issue with the former statement. Antonio Gates takes issue with the latter.

[mraynrand]

I'll say this,

All good football players are good football players


A is A

[Partial]

Waldo I don't recall you being high on Orakpo before. As a matter of fact I recall you being low on him. Now you have him as number one?

[Waldo]

The last two years Ted has gotten his hands on two guys very close to the overall OL ideal. Sitton and Lang's arms are a little short, and each is a hair short, but that is about it. Both have the size and the athleticism. It just so happens that they came from small schools and were a little overlooked. Sitton was invited to nothing, neither the combine nor any of the all star games.

Can you post the numbers for Ted's O Line draft picks for comparison's sake?

Ht, WT, 40, 10, Reps, Shuttle, 3 Cone

Colledge.....6'4", 299, 5.05, 1.71, 21, 4.60, 7.46
Spitz..........6'3", 313, 5.40, 1.82, 25, 4.56, 7.82
Moll............6'5", 308, 5.10, Unk, 18, Unk, Unk (I've seen Moll's 3C and SS before, they were close to DC's. He was a TE at one time).
Barbre........6'4", 305, 4.86, 1.72, 28, 4.63, 7.40
Sitton.........6'4", 319, 5.20, Unk, 28, 4.50, 7.55
Gicomini......6'7", 303, 5.20, 1.72, 23, 4.63, 7.56
Lang...........6'4", 314, 5.15, 1.75, 30, 4.42, Unk (with a shuttle like that you've got to assume his cone is quite good too)
Meredith......6'5", 304, 4.99, 1.69, 31, 4.82, 8.01 (a Hodge-like prospect, fell several rounds beyond where projected, doesn't have TT typical #'s).

For comparison's sake:
Jason Smith........6'5", 309, 5.09, 1.75, 33, 4.59, 7.53
Eugene Monroe....6'5", 309, 5.18, 1.75, 23, 4.79, 7.86
Joe Thomas........6'6", 311, 4.92, 1.75, 28, 4.88, 7.95
Ryan Clady.........6'6", 309, 5.18, 1.81, 24, 4.73, 7.07
Jake Long...........6'7", 313, 5.22, 1.75, 37, 4.73, 7.44
Steve Hutchinson.6'5", 315, 5.15, 1.77, 31, 4.74, 7.82
Phil Loadholt.......6'8", 332, 5.49, 1.75, 26, 4.77, 8.18
Alex Mack...........6'4", 307, 5.17, 1.75, 20, 4.75, 7.31

[Waldo]

Waldo I don't recall you being high on Orakpo before. As a matter of fact I recall you being low on him. Now you have him as number one?

I personally was not high on him because he reportedly was said to look poor in linebacker drills (stiff), and was incredibly injury prone. His workout #'s back up his college production though, unlike many of the other top rushers.

If you combine workout #'s with college tape and production, Orakpo is the top of the class, though Maybin is right at his heels. Brown had the tape and production, but really bombed the explosion drills, to the point to losing a round because of it.

I should have said "a numbers based drafter" instead of "I".

I've been told two other key pieces of information that caused me to drop Maybin off my radar late. Ted drafts team captains, especially high in the draft, he highly values players with leadership qualities, and Ted dislikes taking underclassmen high. Rodgers and Jackson are the only two underclassmen that Ted has taken in the top two rounds, and I believe that every player but Jackson that he's taken in the top 2 rounds was a team captain. Maybin was neither a senior nor a team captain.

[bobblehead]

1a. Game tape
1b. Coaches and peers praise
1c. Character (all different types of good guys, but not lazy or a criminal)






2. Combine numbers





If you find great players that are praised high and low by those who coached them and played against them, the measurables have a funny way of working out.

You may think so, but Ted doesn't.

Raji has one of the highest size:speed ratios of any DT to come out this decade (T Harris and K Williams are slightly higher)

Matthews ran one of the fastest 10 yd splits ever clocked for a 240+ lb person, at any position. Incidentally, Ted did draft the fastest 230+ lb person ever clocked, Deshawn Wynn.

Allen Barbre's combine workout was legendary good.

I picked out Lang as TT's target a month before the draft, simply with his workout #'s.

Ted has never taken a CB shorter than 6'0", or one that ran >4.49.

Nick Collins is one of the fastest S's in the league. Rouse was an almost physical clone of Taylor Mays, though about .05 sec to .1 sec slower.

Ted took the 2nd fastest WR in the 2007 draft, Clowney, who was nothing more than a number on a stopwatch, he had no route running or catching ability.

Almost every elite RB that had size (210+) since the start of the combine ran less than 1.53 in their 10 yd split. Ted has never drafted a RB slower.

At DE, Ted likes long arms. Monty's are some the longest in the league. Wynn's aren't too far off, Jeremy Thompson's are freakishly long as well.

Thomson, B. Jones, and Matthews, every rusher TT has drafted (Jason Hunter too) has been crazy fast, even as rushers go.

.......

I didn't key onto this until it was pointed out that Ted is a #'s drafter by Michael Lombardi. Sure enough. He clearly values tape, but Ted RARELY takes guys with mediocre #'s, he'll reach for good #'s before he grabs what is viewed to be great value but bad numbers. The really notable poor #'s guy that Ted took that was all tape was Abdul Hodge. When you really dig in to the numbers and compare them to other players taken in the drafts over Ted's GB tenure, it is shocking how often the best player at this or that is a Packer. Best 3C out of a linebacker last year....he's now our starting LOLB.

Face it, Ted is a lot closer to Crazy Al in draft philospohy than people care to believe.

Great post waldo...I mean this in the nicest way, but you must have no life. To dig all this up, or know it is insane, and I respect your football knowledge all the more.

BTW, I think the first couple years TT focused on football players to build depth, but now he wants more homeruns and is focusing on athletes. I may be wrong, but that is my impression.

[pbmax]

The last two years Ted has gotten his hands on two guys very close to the overall OL ideal. Sitton and Lang's arms are a little short, and each is a hair short, but that is about it. Both have the size and the athleticism. It just so happens that they came from small schools and were a little overlooked. Sitton was invited to nothing, neither the combine nor any of the all star games.

Can you post the numbers for Ted's O Line draft picks for comparison's sake?

Ht, WT, 40, 10, Reps, Shuttle, 3 Cone

Colledge.....6'4", 299, 5.05, 1.71, 21, 4.60, 7.46
Spitz..........6'3", 313, 5.40, 1.82, 25, 4.56, 7.82
Moll............6'5", 308, 5.10, Unk, 18, Unk, Unk (I've seen Moll's 3C and SS before, they were close to DC's. He was a TE at one time).
Barbre........6'4", 305, 4.86, 1.72, 28, 4.63, 7.40
Sitton.........6'4", 319, 5.20, Unk, 28, 4.50, 7.55
Gicomini......6'7", 303, 5.20, 1.72, 23, 4.63, 7.56
Lang...........6'4", 314, 5.15, 1.75, 30, 4.42, Unk (with a shuttle like that you've got to assume his cone is quite good too)
Meredith......6'5", 304, 4.99, 1.69, 31, 4.82, 8.01 (a Hodge-like prospect, fell several rounds beyond where projected, doesn't have TT typical #'s).

For comparison's sake:
Jason Smith........6'5", 309, 5.09, 1.75, 33, 4.59, 7.53
Eugene Monroe....6'5", 309, 5.18, 1.75, 23, 4.79, 7.86
Joe Thomas........6'6", 311, 4.92, 1.75, 28, 4.88, 7.95
Ryan Clady.........6'6", 309, 5.18, 1.81, 24, 4.73, 7.07
Jake Long...........6'7", 313, 5.22, 1.75, 37, 4.73, 7.44
Steve Hutchinson.6'5", 315, 5.15, 1.77, 31, 4.74, 7.82
Phil Loadholt.......6'8", 332, 5.49, 1.75, 26, 4.77, 8.18
Alex Mack...........6'4", 307, 5.17, 1.75, 20, 4.75, 7.31

Phenomenal, thanks Waldo. Can I suggest we avoid repetitions under 28 and shuttle over 4.5? :lol:

I think KYPack also keeps some combine numbers, maybe he has something for Moll. Oddly, the two things Lang and Sitton have over the other candidates would seem to be slightly at odds with each other (reps and shuttle).

Meredith seems very similar to Loadholt, except faster. Wonder why they thought LT right away?

[KYPack]

Any combine numbers I dig up were googled. I used to look at college talent a lot. Now I read the draft sharpies like Harv, Waldo, Bretsky, on PackerRats.

I comment on the college players I see on local TV or in bowl's. I really thought Brohm would be a big thing, fer instance.

Seriously, a lot of the posters on here have better draft stuff than the major draft sites.

[Waldo]

Phenomenal, thanks Waldo. Can I suggest we avoid repetitions under 28 and shuttle over 4.5? :lol:

I think KYPack also keeps some combine numbers, maybe he has something for Moll. Oddly, the two things Lang and Sitton have over the other candidates would seem to be slightly at odds with each other (reps and shuttle).

Meredith seems very similar to Loadholt, except faster. Wonder why they thought LT right away?

You can see though why I said that TT isn't necessarily looking for different body types. If it was decided that we need mass and to emphasize that more, obviously something would have to suffer relative to the guys we were taking, and that thing would be athleticism. But that simply isn't the case. When presented with two prospects of equal athleticism, but a size difference, all else being equal only an idiot would take the little guy.

I've always said that it is a huge misconception that the ZBS looks for little guys. No, all schemes are looking 5 of those perfect guys like Jason Smith. The reality is those guys are extremely scarce, the trade offs made will determine the look of the line. ZBS teams value the athleticism, and will sacrifice size in a less than perfect prospect. You can't just go into a draft and pull out 5 Josh Sittons or TJ Langs. If things fall right you'll get the chance to draft one every year-every other year without significant reaches, if you are willing to dig hard and ignore some of the draft dogma, and trust your coaches. Or spend premium picks.

Meredith is a garbage run blocker. He's one of those guys that could play RT, but he would just be a pass blocker and add little to the run game. He lacks that thing that Lang exhibits, where he wants to beat up the guy across from him on every play.

[RashanGary]

Our three biggest lineman look like our three best lineman (Sitton/Lang/Spitz). Maybe he should stick with those types and avoid the midgets.

[RashanGary]

I don't see why our lineman have to be so athletic anyway. Just watching, it seems like more strength would be better than more agility. They're in their leveraging and pushing. It's not like they're out in space very often.

[pbmax]

Phenomenal, thanks Waldo. Can I suggest we avoid repetitions under 28 and shuttle over 4.5? :lol:

I think KYPack also keeps some combine numbers, maybe he has something for Moll. Oddly, the two things Lang and Sitton have over the other candidates would seem to be slightly at odds with each other (reps and shuttle).

Meredith seems very similar to Loadholt, except faster. Wonder why they thought LT right away?

You can see though why I said that TT isn't necessarily looking for different body types. If it was decided that we need mass and to emphasize that more, obviously something would have to suffer relative to the guys we were taking, and that thing would be athleticism. But that simply isn't the case. When presented with two prospects of equal athleticism, but a size difference, all else being equal only an idiot would take the little guy.

I've always said that it is a huge misconception that the ZBS looks for little guys. No, all schemes are looking 5 of those perfect guys like Jason Smith. The reality is those guys are extremely scarce, the trade offs made will determine the look of the line. ZBS teams value the athleticism, and will sacrifice size in a less than perfect prospect. You can't just go into a draft and pull out 5 Josh Sittons or TJ Langs. If things fall right you'll get the chance to draft one every year-every other year without significant reaches, if you are willing to dig hard and ignore some of the draft dogma, and trust your coaches. Or spend premium picks.

Meredith is a garbage run blocker. He's one of those guys that could play RT, but he would just be a pass blocker and add little to the run game. He lacks that thing that Lang exhibits, where he wants to beat up the guy across from him on every play.
Body type might have been the wrong heading to use for the piece, but I wanted to tie it to the information that Capers gave in his opening remarks when he was introduced as DC.

I agree that few teams can seriously hope to land 5 ideal types on the O Line, regardless of system; but of course, they still try. As I recall, Denver went to great lengths, including rumors of tampering, to land Tony Jones when he left the Browns and he was no tiny right tackle. And I agree that a Denver type ZBS would value athletic skill over bulk in a trade off with non-ideal draft prospects.

But I think that the fact that Lang, Meredith and Sitton are more powerful (at least as measured by reps) than Colledge, Giacomini or Moll might point to a change in direction. That change might only be in the trade off they are willing to make. But with a very small sample size, it seems to have fit their coaching and play calling better. Its also just possible that T2 just hit on two in a row. Time may tell.

[bobblehead]

Phenomenal, thanks Waldo. Can I suggest we avoid repetitions under 28 and shuttle over 4.5? :lol:

I think KYPack also keeps some combine numbers, maybe he has something for Moll. Oddly, the two things Lang and Sitton have over the other candidates would seem to be slightly at odds with each other (reps and shuttle).

Meredith seems very similar to Loadholt, except faster. Wonder why they thought LT right away?

You can see though why I said that TT isn't necessarily looking for different body types. If it was decided that we need mass and to emphasize that more, obviously something would have to suffer relative to the guys we were taking, and that thing would be athleticism. But that simply isn't the case. When presented with two prospects of equal athleticism, but a size difference, all else being equal only an idiot would take the little guy.

I've always said that it is a huge misconception that the ZBS looks for little guys. No, all schemes are looking 5 of those perfect guys like Jason Smith. The reality is those guys are extremely scarce, the trade offs made will determine the look of the line. ZBS teams value the athleticism, and will sacrifice size in a less than perfect prospect. You can't just go into a draft and pull out 5 Josh Sittons or TJ Langs. If things fall right you'll get the chance to draft one every year-every other year without significant reaches, if you are willing to dig hard and ignore some of the draft dogma, and trust your coaches. Or spend premium picks.

Meredith is a garbage run blocker. He's one of those guys that could play RT, but he would just be a pass blocker and add little to the run game. He lacks that thing that Lang exhibits, where he wants to beat up the guy across from him on every play.
Body type might have been the wrong heading to use for the piece, but I wanted to tie it to the information that Capers gave in his opening remarks when he was introduced as DC.

I agree that few teams can seriously hope to land 5 ideal types on the O Line, regardless of system; but of course, they still try. As I recall, Denver went to great lengths, including rumors of tampering, to land Tony Jones when he left the Browns and he was no tiny right tackle. And I agree that a Denver type ZBS would value athletic skill over bulk in a trade off with non-ideal draft prospects.

But I think that the fact that Lang, Meredith and Sitton are more powerful (at least as measured by reps) than Colledge, Giacomini or Moll might point to a change in direction. That change might only be in the trade off they are willing to make. But with a very small sample size, it seems to have fit their coaching and play calling better. Its also just possible that T2 just hit on two in a row. Time may tell.

the part in bold is my guess, but like Waldo said, guys like Lang and Sitton want to maul the guy across from them, I rarely see that intensity from DC or Cliffy. Babre has it as well, but for some reason looks as bad in pass pro as anyone I've ever seen get significant time. Guys with that chip on their shoulder are battlers, they come back harder when they get beat....others put their tail between their legs and crawl away.

[Waldo]

Our three biggest lineman look like our three best lineman (Sitton/Lang/Spitz). Maybe he should stick with those types and avoid the midgets.

Would you be in favor of just drafting the big guys then, and skipping on the smaller guys that could develop?

You know that TT's yearly take of lineman would cut in half or more. I'm not so sure that is the best idea.

LIS, there aren't a whole lot of guys like that out there. Either you spend a 1st/2nd every year, or you keep taking the guys like Moll as well and hope you get a decent batting average, but busts surely are to be expected.

One thing I've tried to impress on people, is how insanely rare prospects like Lang and Sitton are. Saying "get more guys like them" is blowing hot air, go back through all of the drafts in the MM/TT era and find a guy like them that he has passed on.

Ted has taken a small school guy that has the athleticism and overall good ruler measurements every year in either the 4th or 5th. The more polished ones have come from the 4th (Barbre, Sitton, Lang), the raw ones from the 5th (Coston, Moll, Giacomini). You can't expect a batting average any better than 50% with these guys, even if you are lucky, but it helps to cut down on the number of premium picks spent on lineman. Heck you don't even really need to use your mid round pick, just trade your second down 10 spots or so, and you get the 4th/5th rounder free.