6 chances to win

[Patler]

Six chances to win against Pittsburgh in the final drive alone. Plays that could have stopped the drive, resulting in a Packers victory. (The following content is taken from the GBPG.
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20091221/PKR01/312210159/1058/After-further-review--Breaking-down-tape-of-the-loss-to-the-Steelers
The format is mine.)


1 & 2. "CBs Tramon Williams and Charles Woodson both had passes bounce off their hands — the sort of throws the Packers have seemed to turn into takeaways all season."

3. "Nickel CB Jarrett Bush held onto one, but ILB Brandon Chillar’s illegal (and inadvertent) contact with WR Hines Ward wiped it away."

4. "They had the Steelers in fourth-and-7, but Woodson — freelancing in a “robber” defense — bit on QB Ben Roethlisberger’s pump fake and shaded away from WR Santonio Holmes, who crossed ILB Nick Barnett’s man-under coverage for a 32-yard gain."

5. "DL Cullen Jenkins whipped LT Max Starks with an inside move but couldn’t wrap up Roethlisberger — a would-be sack that almost surely would have caused the final 9 seconds to expire."

6. "And on the next play, which also was the game’s last, dime CB Josh Bell more or less got caught sleeping, drifted too far upfield and opened the back-shoulder throw WR Mike Wallace caught for a 19-yard TD."


With Woodson called for 3 penalties, dropping an interception and misplaying or being outplayed on several key receptions, was this his worst game as a Packer? Being a late game with lots of national exposure, did this game kill his shot for Defensive Player of the Year?

The missed sack by Jenkins was really something. Jenkins was a bit off balance, and had to reach for Roethlisberger, but looked to get a good hook with his hands high on Roethlisberger, being able to get some of his weight onto him. It barely phased Big Ben, who shook it off as if a little cornerback grabbed on.

[KYPack]

I tivoed the game, but don't have the juice to watch the game. That's happened to me a lot this season & it's a pretty good year.

Ben is probably the strongest guy ever to play QB in the NFL. He's the only QB going that would have shaken Cullen's tackle. The only QB I can remember that had Ben's strength is Bobby Douglass. Bobby would have slipped the tackle and thrown a 15 yd duck. Ben escapes and slings 40 yard bullets right to a spot.

[pbmax]

Agreed about the near sack. It was something close to a glancing shot, but Jenkins is big and he hit him with most of his arm, not just a grab and you would expect any other QB to at least have to reset themselves for the throw at least.

Forgot about the dropped INTs. Tramon's seemed like he had a clear shot. They had their chances and they are still learning and eager, the defense will continue to get better.

[Bretsky]

I tivoed the game, but don't have the juice to watch the game. That's happened to me a lot this season & it's a pretty good year.

Ben is probably the strongest guy ever to play QB in the NFL. He's the only QB going that would have shaken Cullen's tackle. The only QB I can remember that had Ben's strength is Bobby Douglass. Bobby would have slipped the tackle and thrown a 15 yd duck. Ben escapes and slings 40 yard bullets right to a spot.


What about Dante Culpepper ?

[mission]

I tivoed the game, but don't have the juice to watch the game. That's happened to me a lot this season & it's a pretty good year.

Ben is probably the strongest guy ever to play QB in the NFL. He's the only QB going that would have shaken Cullen's tackle. The only QB I can remember that had Ben's strength is Bobby Douglass. Bobby would have slipped the tackle and thrown a 15 yd duck. Ben escapes and slings 40 yard bullets right to a spot.


What about Dante Culpepper ?

I was gonna say! Culpepper was impossible to take down as a Viking.

[KYPack]

I tivoed the game, but don't have the juice to watch the game. That's happened to me a lot this season & it's a pretty good year.

Ben is probably the strongest guy ever to play QB in the NFL. He's the only QB going that would have shaken Cullen's tackle. The only QB I can remember that had Ben's strength is Bobby Douglass. Bobby would have slipped the tackle and thrown a 15 yd duck. Ben escapes and slings 40 yard bullets right to a spot.


What about Dante Culpepper ?

I was gonna say! Culpepper was impossible to take down as a Viking.

OK boys. Yeah Pepper had the strength to duck that tackle, but then he would've fumbled or tossed a pick. Ben usually makes a great toss after avoiding the sack. Ben is the best "big man" QB I've ever seen. That, & I love his attitude.

[mission]

I tivoed the game, but don't have the juice to watch the game. That's happened to me a lot this season & it's a pretty good year.

Ben is probably the strongest guy ever to play QB in the NFL. He's the only QB going that would have shaken Cullen's tackle. The only QB I can remember that had Ben's strength is Bobby Douglass. Bobby would have slipped the tackle and thrown a 15 yd duck. Ben escapes and slings 40 yard bullets right to a spot.


What about Dante Culpepper ?

I was gonna say! Culpepper was impossible to take down as a Viking.

OK boys. Yeah Pepper had the strength to duck that tackle, but then he would've fumbled or tossed a pick. Ben usually makes a great toss after avoiding the sack. Ben is the best "big man" QB I've ever seen. That, & I love his attitude.

I'll give ya all that Uncle KY!

[mraynrand]

7) Call the hold on Jolly on the final play

[Maxie the Taxi]

7) Call the hold on Jolly on the final play

Be honest. Doesn't it sometimes cross your mind that NFL games are rigged? With all the judgment calls the refs have to make nowadays, it sure would be easy for a ref to go rogue like the ref in the NBA.

On the other hand, maybe the refs are overwhelmed with the judgment calls so it's a push as to which one to call at any particular time.

[mraynrand]

7) Call the hold on Jolly on the final play

Be honest. Doesn't it sometimes cross your mind that NFL games are rigged? With all the judgment calls the refs have to make nowadays, it sure would be easy for a ref to go rogue like the ref in the NBA.

On the other hand, maybe the refs are overwhelmed with the judgment calls so it's a push as to which one to call at any particular time.

Nah, I don't see it as rigged. Just pretty damn annoying - they spotted and called everything else on that drive on both teams, and it was a full-fist, turn your jersey hold on Jolly. Looking at the replay, I think the Ump and the back judge (I think I have the correct officials) looked like they were screened. No conspiracy theory, no ref payoff. Maybe there was a little of the ref reluctance to call a penalty on a final play, but I doubt that was a factor. Just unlucky and annoying. And as others have said, the Packers had plenty of chances to win before that play.

[Smidgeon]

Nah, I don't see it as rigged. Just pretty damn annoying - they spotted and called everything else on that drive on both teams, and it was a full-fist, turn your jersey hold on Jolly. Looking at the replay, I think the Ump and the back judge (I think I have the correct officials) looked like they were screened. No conspiracy theory, no ref payoff. Maybe there was a little of the ref reluctance to call a penalty on a final play, but I doubt that was a factor. Just unlucky and annoying. And as others have said, the Packers had plenty of chances to win before that play.

I agree. I think the thing is that the refs are human. They're not going to be perfect though we, as fans, want them to be. I think their biggest collective gaffe so far is that they don't quite seem to be following the "50 guys in the bar" for overturning a call on the field. I think their still trying to be so precise that they're overturning things that are really too close to call (and no, I'm not just saying that in response to Clay's overturned strip sack).

[mraynrand]

Nah, I don't see it as rigged. Just pretty damn annoying - they spotted and called everything else on that drive on both teams, and it was a full-fist, turn your jersey hold on Jolly. Looking at the replay, I think the Ump and the back judge (I think I have the correct officials) looked like they were screened. No conspiracy theory, no ref payoff. Maybe there was a little of the ref reluctance to call a penalty on a final play, but I doubt that was a factor. Just unlucky and annoying. And as others have said, the Packers had plenty of chances to win before that play.

I agree. I think the thing is that the refs are human. They're not going to be perfect though we, as fans, want them to be. I think their biggest collective gaffe so far is that they don't quite seem to be following the "50 guys in the bar" for overturning a call on the field. I think their still trying to be so precise that they're overturning things that are really too close to call (and no, I'm not just saying that in response to Clay's overturned strip sack).

Good post. And one final thing that I may have already wrote: when you have a game so incredibly close, it is very easy and very tempting, and very natural to go over the game and find 1,2, 7, or 20 different things that could have gone differently to win you the game. That's why those close losses are so tough to take - because you know when two teams are so evenly matched on that one day, that the difference between winning or losing almost seems arbitrary.

[MJZiggy]

OK boys. Yeah Pepper had the strength to duck that tackle, but then he would've fumbled or tossed a pick. Ben usually makes a great toss after avoiding the sack. Ben is the best "big man" QB I've ever seen. That, & I love his attitude.

Ahem...

[Scott Campbell]

OK boys. Yeah Pepper had the strength to duck that tackle, but then he would've fumbled or tossed a pick. Ben usually makes a great toss after avoiding the sack. Ben is the best "big man" QB I've ever seen. That, & I love his attitude.

Ahem...


Hiya toots.

[Guiness]

Agreed with OP's list.

I wasn't counting, but watching the drive I couldn't believe how it was on life support, but kept staying alive.

3...I don't know that the contact was inadvertent - but it was at 5.001 yards.

6 - was Bell really caught sleeping? It looked like decent coverage, and Wallace made a nice catch. It was one of those throws the announcers love to say 'he put it in a place only the receiver could catch it'

[Guiness]

OK boys. Yeah Pepper had the strength to duck that tackle, but then he would've fumbled or tossed a pick. Ben usually makes a great toss after avoiding the sack. Ben is the best "big man" QB I've ever seen. That, & I love his attitude.

I have trouble appreciating Roth, dating back to his idiotic motorcycle accident. Riding around town on a Hayabusa with no helmet.

Maybe I'm being unfair, and he's grown since then. I couldn't really say.

[Gunakor]

6 - was Bell really caught sleeping? It looked like decent coverage, and Wallace made a nice catch. It was one of those throws the announcers love to say 'he put it in a place only the receiver could catch it'

That's what I saw too. The coverage couldn't have been a whole lot better. Bell was in pretty good position on the inside, using the sideline as his help. Only a perfect throw and an amazing catch scores a TD on that play. Tip of the hat to Rothlisberger and Wallace there. We gave them second chances throughout the drive, but we gave them nothing on that final play. They earned that one.

[Kiwon]

As great as the last Packer TD was by Jones, I would have preferred that he had the presence of mind to take a knee short of the endzone. Of course, players react instinctively and want to score but in that situation in a shoot-out game, clock management becomes a primary concern.

Of course, the Packers 'D' should have stopped the Steelers on that last drive. They certainly had their chances. But the Steelers deserve credit for stepping up and finishing the game in style. It was a great football fans' game even if it was a tough loss for the Pack.

[Patler]

As great as the last Packer TD was by Jones, I would have preferred that he had the presence of mind to take a knee short of the endzone. Of course, players react instinctively and want to score but in that situation in a shoot-out game, clock management becomes a primary concern.

Of course, the Packers 'D' should have stopped the Steelers on that last drive. They certainly had their chances. But the Steelers deserve credit for stepping up and finishing the game in style. It was a great football fans' game even if it was a tough loss for the Pack.

Grants TD? Take a knee short of the endzone when you are trailing in the game? No. If the Packers were ahead by a point or two, maybe, but not when they were behind. A botched snap, a fumbled handoff and you might never score the points to take the lead. The most you can ask that he does in that situation is maybe delay crossing the goal line if he can, but not stop short of actually scoring the go-ahead points.

[esoxx]

As great as the last Packer TD was by Jones, I would have preferred that he had the presence of mind to take a knee short of the endzone. Of course, players react instinctively and want to score but in that situation in a shoot-out game, clock management becomes a primary concern.

Of course, the Packers 'D' should have stopped the Steelers on that last drive. They certainly had their chances. But the Steelers deserve credit for stepping up and finishing the game in style. It was a great football fans' game even if it was a tough loss for the Pack.

Grants TD? Take a knee short of the endzone when you are trailing in the game? No. If the Packers were ahead by a point or two, maybe, but not when they were behind. A botched snap, a fumbled handoff and you might never score the points to take the lead. The most you can ask that he does in that situation is maybe delay crossing the goal line if he can, but not stop short of actually scoring the go-ahead points.

Grant's TD? I think he was talking about Jones. Pls pay attention.

[Patler]

As great as the last Packer TD was by Jones, I would have preferred that he had the presence of mind to take a knee short of the endzone. Of course, players react instinctively and want to score but in that situation in a shoot-out game, clock management becomes a primary concern.

Of course, the Packers 'D' should have stopped the Steelers on that last drive. They certainly had their chances. But the Steelers deserve credit for stepping up and finishing the game in style. It was a great football fans' game even if it was a tough loss for the Pack.

Grants TD? Take a knee short of the endzone when you are trailing in the game? No. If the Packers were ahead by a point or two, maybe, but not when they were behind. A botched snap, a fumbled handoff and you might never score the points to take the lead. The most you can ask that he does in that situation is maybe delay crossing the goal line if he can, but not stop short of actually scoring the go-ahead points.

Grant's TD? I think he was talking about Jones. Pls pay attention.

Give an old guy a break, I had the Grant and Jones TDs reversed in my memory!? :oops:

Doesn't matter, same comment. You might delay a second or two crossing the goal line, but you don't stop short of actually scoring the go-ahead points, for fear you might never score them. Fumbles etc. can happen at the most inopportune times.

[Kiwon]

As great as the last Packer TD was by Jones, I would have preferred that he had the presence of mind to take a knee short of the endzone. Of course, players react instinctively and want to score but in that situation in a shoot-out game, clock management becomes a primary concern.

Of course, the Packers 'D' should have stopped the Steelers on that last drive. They certainly had their chances. But the Steelers deserve credit for stepping up and finishing the game in style. It was a great football fans' game even if it was a tough loss for the Pack.

Grants TD? Take a knee short of the endzone when you are trailing in the game? No. If the Packers were ahead by a point or two, maybe, but not when they were behind. A botched snap, a fumbled handoff and you might never score the points to take the lead. The most you can ask that he does in that situation is maybe delay crossing the goal line if he can, but not stop short of actually scoring the go-ahead points.

Jones scored the last TD.

Which do you prefer - a 31-30 victory or a 37-36 loss?

There's no difference is taking a knee while in very reasonable FG position and chewing up the clock and a situation where you are desperately driving for a game-winning score. So you expend maximum effort with the latter but not the former?

Jones' scored at 2:12. The Steelers had one timeout left.

If Jones takes a knee in-bounds, the clock goes to the 2:00 warning (probably unless the Steelers burn their last timeout). In either case, the Packers have one play (and most likely two plays) to run the clock down and kick a very short FG.

You tell me, how much time can a team run off the clock in two plays?

I think the Packers can convert on the FG in that scenario and leave Mike Tomlin to be torched in the football world for the blunder of the onside kick. The Packers had all the momentum at that point.

[Patler]

Jones scored the last TD.

Yup, I already acknowledged my mistake on that.


Which do you prefer - a 31-30 victory or a 37-36 loss?

Oh, so taking a knee would have insured a win? Get serious!


There's no difference is taking a knee while in very reasonable FG position and chewing up the clock and a situation where you are desperately driving for a game-winning score. So you expend maximum effort with the latter but not the former?

Jones' scored at 2:12. The Steelers had one timeout left.

If Jones takes a knee in-bounds, the clock goes to the 2:00 warning (probably unless the Steelers burn their last timeout). In either case, the Packers have one play (and most likely two plays) to run the clock down and kick a very short FG.

You tell me, how much time can a team run off the clock in two plays?

I think the Packers can convert on the FG in that scenario and leave Mike Tomlin to be torched in the football world for the blunder of the onside kick. The Packers had all the momentum at that point.

With Crosby having missed a FG in this and every game for weeks;
With Kapinos being new, having bobbled the extra point snap, barely getting it down;
With A FG putting you up by just 1, meaning a much shorter drive by the Steelers beats you on a FG;
With the field not being in the best of condition;
With the Packers penchant for penalties;
With any conventional offensive play trying to score a TD having the risk of a fumble or penalty;
With my defense having been a strength in recent weeks in spite of their play that day;
With the defense not having surrender a TD in the second half;

I'll take the touchdown when I can get it, and force the Steelers to have to drive the length of the field for a TD not a FG. I'll rely on my defense to make a stop in 2 minutes. I'll not take the risk of never scoring those go-ahead points. I would rather force the Steelers to drive 75 yards for a TD in 2 minutes, than give them a minute, a minute-thirty, or whatever, to move into FG range.

[denverYooper]

With Crosby having missed a FG in this and every game for weeks;
With Kapinos being new, having bobbled the extra point snap, barely getting it down;
With A FG putting you up by just 1, meaning a much shorter drive by the Steelers beats you on a FG;
With the field not being in the best of condition;
With the Packers penchant for penalties;
With any conventional offensive play trying to score a TD having the risk of a fumble or penalty;
With my defense having been a strength in recent weeks in spite of their play that day;
With the defense not having surrender a TD in the second half;

I'll take the touchdown when I can get it, and force the Steelers to have to drive the length of the field for a TD not a FG. I'll rely on my defense to make a stop in 2 minutes. I'll not take the risk of never scoring those go-ahead points. I would rather force the Steelers to drive 75 yards for a TD in 2 minutes, than give them a minute, a minute-thirty, or whatever, to move into FG range.

I forgot that they hadn't allowed a TD in the 2nd half until that point. So it was very reasonable, I think, to make the assumption that the D wasn't going to give up a TD.

[Kiwon]

Which do you prefer - a 31-30 victory or a 37-36 loss?

Oh, so taking a knee would have insured a win? Get serious!.

Et tu? You get serious! So a strategy that forces a team without any timeouts and a minute left to play to get into field goal position insures a loss?


I'll take the touchdown when I can get it, and force the Steelers to have to drive the length of the field for a TD not a FG. I'll rely on my defense to make a stop in 2 minutes. I'll not take the risk of never scoring those go-ahead points. I would rather force the Steelers to drive 75 yards for a TD in 2 minutes, than give them a minute, a minute-thirty, or whatever, to move into FG range.

And I'll trust the same defense to stop a team with no timeouts left from getting into FG position with one minute left to play.

[Patler]

Which do you prefer - a 31-30 victory or a 37-36 loss?

Oh, so taking a knee would have insured a win? Get serious!.

Et tu? You get serious! So a strategy that forces a team without any timeouts and a minute left to play to get into field goal position insures a loss?


I never said it would necessarily be a win my way (obviously!) or a loss your way, you implied it would have been a win had they done it your way; "a 31-30 victory".

All I am saying is that if I was the coach I would want my player to score the go ahead touchdown when he can in that situation. I would not want to risk not scoring the TD, or not scoring at all. I would gladly take a lead of more than 3 points with 2 minutes left to play following the kickoff over a lead of less than 3 with a minute to a minute 30 left to play after the kickoff. I would not be scared to rely on my defense. It didn't work this time; but I would have it the same way next time.

You prefer the other option.

[sharpe1027]

I think the Packers can convert on the FG in that scenario and leave Mike Tomlin to be torched in the football world for the blunder of the onside kick. The Packers had all the momentum at that point.

Unless the Packers botch the kick.
Unless the Packers fumble the ball killing time.
Unless the Steelers get a good kick off return and convert a FG.
Unless the Steelers drive to within FG range and kick the winner with no time left.

Neither option is a sure thing.

Personally, I'll take the sure points. About the only time I would ever kneel down is when already leading and where the entire clock can be killed.