Troy Aikman: The Genius

[Brando19]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/22/aikman-suggests-getting-rid-of-helmets/

Troy Aikman gave his two cents on concussions in the NFL. He suggests the NFL get rid of helmets, then players would think twice about diving around the way they do. Maybe this genius could also suggest banning helmets on motorcycles or bicycles. Hell...this is Troy Aikman...he'd probably suggest taking away astronaut's helmets!

[pbmax]

Troy doesn't remember (not because of concussions but because of youthfulness) that helmets were first used to prevent skull fractures and lacerations. Pick your poison.

[HowardRoark]

I think he is speaking allegorically, or metaphorically, or maybe speaking hyperbolically.....or something.

Just paint what you see Troy, don't let anyone say it's wrong.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Let's go back to the old hard-leather helmets with no facemasks.

It would take some violence out of the game, plus eliminate facemask penalties, which are a pain in the neck. :)

[Noodle]

I don't know if you're kidding or not, Maxie, but I think you're exactly right. The stuff I've read (and no, I'm no expert) really does indicate that improving the helmet is not the answer to the concusion problem. The players go too fast, their heads stop too quickly and violently, and the brain just gets sloshed around. No amount of padding or plastic will stop that.

So, in fact, I think Aikman is correct. Take off the face mask, put 'em in leather, and players would go back to tackling with their shoulders in stead of their facemasks.

If the NFL and fans really cared about player health, I think this is the single best thing they could do. Yes, you'd get facial cuts, but you can wear scars like that with honor. In contrast, multiple concusions destroy your mind and put you in a grave.

[pbmax]

I think we should fit each player with a HANS device from NASCAR and see if that helps. :lol:

[Patler]

The use of helmets in hockey is relatively recent. It wasn't too many years ago (10 years or so) there were still a few NHL players who did not wear them as they were "grandfathered in" under the old rules. Many argue that the use of helmets changed the game dramatically, making it more violent, with players not respecting each other's or their own vulnerabilities, and actually increasing the frequency of concussions as a result.

[red]

take all pads away, or just shrink the size of them

[Freak Out]

Lets go back to the good old days when there were only 20-30 deaths a year in football.

[sharpe1027]

The only solution is to play badminton instead. Just be sure to wear protective eye gear.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I don't know if you're kidding or not, Maxie, but I think you're exactly right. The stuff I've read (and no, I'm no expert) really does indicate that improving the helmet is not the answer to the concusion problem. The players go too fast, their heads stop too quickly and violently, and the brain just gets sloshed around. No amount of padding or plastic will stop that.

So, in fact, I think Aikman is correct. Take off the face mask, put 'em in leather, and players would go back to tackling with their shoulders in stead of their facemasks.

If the NFL and fans really cared about player health, I think this is the single best thing they could do. Yes, you'd get facial cuts, but you can wear scars like that with honor. In contrast, multiple concusions destroy your mind and put you in a grave.

I was only half-kidding. I think you're right in principle, but in practice the NFL would never do what we're suggesting. The trend will probably be more and more padding and more and better helmetry. Maybe helmets will evolve into the fully-enclosed helmets ala NASCAR or motorcyclists. The facemask would be integrated into the helmet so it would be impossible to get a handhold on it.

Maybe even airbags ala automobiles are in our future. They'd pop open on particularly violent or nasty hits and the player would bounce down the field like the Michelin man!

The NFL is all about what sells, and what sells now is speed, size, flying through the air and violent collisions.

[SkinBasket]

I say add 30-60 pounds of lead weights on the pads to slow the players down. Speed kills, so kill the speed. Make it a thinking man's game.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I say add 30-60 pounds of lead weights on the pads to slow the players down. Speed kills, so kill the speed. Make it a thinking man's game.

Isn't that chess?

[Patler]

Players get concussions even when there is no serious head impact. Coup and contracoup injuries occur from the brain "sloshing around" inside the skull and impacting the skull. It is difficult to see how helmets can prevent this. Basically the deceleration of the skull has to be slowed so that it slows with the brain, rather than the brain slamming against the inside of the skull when the brain is moving faster than the skull.

Make the players smaller and slower and concussions will decrease, but never be eliminated.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Make the players smaller and slower and concussions will decrease, but never be eliminated.
A league full of DTs and FBs. Well, that at least takes care of the speed factor.

[sharpe1027]

Players get concussions even when there is no serious head impact. Coup and contracoup injuries occur from the brain "sloshing around" inside the skull and impacting the skull. It is difficult to see how helmets can prevent this. Basically the deceleration of the skull has to be slowed so that it slows with the brain, rather than the brain slamming against the inside of the skull when the brain is moving faster than the skull.

Make the players smaller and slower and concussions will decrease, but never be eliminated.

That's probably the only solution that would make significant differences, other than changing the rules.

Could you explain how the player size matters when talking concussion? Wouldn't a collision of two 300 lb Linemen result in the same deceleration as two 150lb DBs colliding at the same speed?

Also, while helmets don't prevent all concussions, don't they help ? Aren't they designed to spread the decelerating of the impact over a longer time frame and thus reduce the effective amount of G-force experienced by the head?

[Noodle]

Again, I'm no friggin expert here, but padding of any kind will help prevent concussions from impacts such as hitting your head on the ground. A leather, well-padded helment would serve this functionas well as the plastic models.

But no helmet can protect you from happens to your brain when you get your head snapped due to a violent collision or from a facemask-first tackle. The only thing I can think of to mitigate this is to have the players run, block, and tackle with a little less reckless abandon, which I think would happen if you took the facemask off and removed the hard plastic helmet shell.

That's my theory, anyway. You'll never eliminate concussions, but I bet you'd reduce them big time.

[Patler]

Could you explain how the player size matters when talking concussion? Wouldn't a collision of two 300 lb Linemen result in the same deceleration as two 150lb DBs colliding at the same speed?

Also, while helmets don't prevent all concussions, don't they help ? Aren't they designed to spread the decelerating of the impact over a longer time frame and thus reduce the effective amount of G-force experienced by the head?

Decrease the mass of players, decrease the speed at which they move and you decrease the forces that are generated upon impacts between them, impacts with the ground, etc. In simple terms, think of it this way, a running backer decelerates more slowly when he hits a DB and drives him a few yards than when he hits a 350 pound lineman and stops dead in his tracks.

If you slam the brakes in your car, loose things fly off the seat; if you brake slowly they do not. The same happens with your brain inside your skull. Hitting the DB is braking slowly, running into the 350 lb tackle is slamming your brakes. How fast the players are moving at the time also affects the result.

I'm sure helmets can help to a degree, but the argument in hockey has been that the helmets provide a false sense of security and players do things they wouldn't do without a helmet, so the net result is actually increasing injuries. I don't know if I agree with that conclusion or not, I'm just relaying it.

My real point is that you will never eliminate concussions, and helmets can do only so much. As players continue to get bigger and faster, forces increase and injuries will occur. I think it was SI a few years ago that wrote about the changing types of injuries seen in the NFL, which the medical community attributed to the forces from bigger, faster players.

[MadScientist]

Lesser helmets would only help with some concussions by reducing the helmet-helmet type collisions. It would not help so much with the knee - helmet hits or helmet - turf crashes. Perhaps if the helmet consisted of eye - nose protection (like a variant of ski goggles) and a shell of thick but soft material, like memory foam to the size of a 70's 'fro, we could reduce the number or severity of concussions. It would take a bit of getting used to the new look.

[sharpe1027]

Decrease the mass of players, decrease the speed at which they move and you decrease the forces that are generated upon impacts between them, impacts with the ground, etc. In simple terms, think of it this way, a running backer decelerates more slowly when he hits a DB and drives him a few yards than when he hits a 350 pound lineman and stops dead in his tracks.


I got the speed part, but the size doesn't make sense to me. In your hypothetical, wouldn't the situation actually be worse? Sure, it may be better for the RB, but the DB ends up worse because his direction hasn't just been stopped, it has actually been reversed.

Perhaps the problem is not size, but the disparity of sizes between players? IDK.

[Patler]

Think force, think mass, think acceleration.

[sharpe1027]

Think force, think mass, think acceleration.

Acceleration is what causes the problem.

Hypothetical #1: Two 300 lb players each moving at 5mph in opposite directions meet and accelerate to zero in 1 second. A=dv/dt = 10mph/1sec.

Hypothetical #2: Two 100 lb pee-wee players moving at 5mhp in opposite directions meet and accelerate to zero in 1 second. A=dv/dt = 10mph/1sec.

Same result, what am I missing?

[mraynrand]

dp

[mraynrand]

Think force, think mass, think acceleration.

Acceleration is what causes the problem.

Hypothetical #1: Two 300 lb players each moving at 5mph in opposite directions meet and accelerate to zero in 1 second. A=dv/dt = 10mph/1sec.

Hypothetical #2: Two 100 lb pee-wee players moving at 5mhp in opposite directions meet and accelerate to zero in 1 second. A=dv/dt = 10mph/1sec.

Same result, what am I missing?

F=MA!

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/Patlerized.jpg

[sharpe1027]

Think force, think mass, think acceleration.

Acceleration is what causes the problem.

Hypothetical #1: Two 300 lb players each moving at 5mph in opposite directions meet and accelerate to zero in 1 second. A=dv/dt = 10mph/1sec.

Hypothetical #2: Two 100 lb pee-wee players moving at 5mhp in opposite directions meet and accelerate to zero in 1 second. A=dv/dt = 10mph/1sec.

Same result, what am I missing?

F=MA!

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/Patlerized.jpg

Doesn't that prove my point? Reduce the mass and you may reduce the force, but the acceleration remains constant.

[RashanGary]

I agree that the speed at contact is far more important than the F=MA equation would equate.



When a DB hits a QB or WR square in the noggin at full speed, a sudden, head jarring action is caused. Whether the head keeps moving or not means little after the intial jarring action took place adn the size of the body attached to either head isn't going to make much of a difference after the initial jar happens.



If you increased the mass somewhere near infinity and decreased the acceleration to a turtles pace, I don't think it would matter that you ramed that sky scrapper into your head at 2 miles per hour. But if you took an open palm and went up to a person as hard and fast as you can right up side the most delicate part of their head, you'd have a pretty good chance at a concussion.


F=MA is a useful equations. I'm not so sure it's applies as directly as Patler indicates here to the concussion problem. Speed with enough mass to cause sudden jarring but with the size not mattering much after that crucial threshold is met would seem more applicable. Finding an equation that maps it? I don't know, let's test it on some heads here and see how it plots out.

[Patler]

More important are the changes and distributions of forces and the abilities of materials (body parts or otherwise) to withstand those forces. I tried to simplify by suggesting systems in which a moving object (the RB) hit a movable object (the DB) compared to an immovable object (Grady Jackson!) in which accelerations are different for the RB. Obviously, there are also considerations for the DB and DT, not just the RB.

[RashanGary]

I think if we plotted the sudden jarring impacts on a chart, the sack where a DL slams a QB to the ground and seemingly vertebrae by vertebrae the spine connects with the ground almost like a golf swing uncoiling or a towel whipping a hinder until the very climax where the head finishes with a lash against the turf.

Even if a big guy hits you in the head, there's still some absorbtion into his boyd and into yours. With the hit to the ground, there's no absorption, no where to disipate the energy, plus the speed is so great. That's the bad one I think.

[sharpe1027]

I agree that the speed at contact is far more important than the F=MA equation would equate.



When a DB hits a QB or WR square in the noggin at full speed, a sudden, head jarring action is caused. Whether the head keeps moving or not means little after the intial jarring action took place adn the size of the body attached to either head isn't going to make much of a difference after the initial jar happens.



If you increased the mass somewhere near infinity and decreased the acceleration to a turtles pace, I don't think it would matter that you ramed that sky scrapper into your head at 2 miles per hour. But if you took an open palm and went up to a person as hard and fast as you can right up side the most delicate part of their head, you'd have a pretty good chance at a concussion.


F=MA is a useful equations. I'm not so sure it's applies as directly as Patler indicates here to the concussion problem. Speed with enough mass to cause sudden jarring but with the size not mattering much after that crucial threshold is met would seem more applicable. Finding an equation that maps it? I don't know, let's test it on some heads here and see how it plots out.

As I see it, the properties are all linked, but acceleration is the key. How quickly the head changes directions dominates how much the brain is jarred.

[Patler]

I agree that the speed at contact is far more important than the F=MA equation would equate.



When a DB hits a QB or WR square in the noggin at full speed, a sudden, head jarring action is caused. Whether the head keeps moving or not means little after the intial jarring action took place adn the size of the body attached to either head isn't going to make much of a difference after the initial jar happens.



If you increased the mass somewhere near infinity and decreased the acceleration to a turtles pace, I don't think it would matter that you ramed that sky scrapper into your head at 2 miles per hour. But if you took an open palm and went up to a person as hard and fast as you can right up side the most delicate part of their head, you'd have a pretty good chance at a concussion.


F=MA is a useful equations. I'm not so sure it's applies as directly as Patler indicates here to the concussion problem. Speed with enough mass to cause sudden jarring but with the size not mattering much after that crucial threshold is met would seem more applicable. Finding an equation that maps it? I don't know, let's test it on some heads here and see how it plots out.

Acceleration of the skull is important, because acceleration of the brain will lag behind. But, to accelerate the skull you must apply force from another player, the ground, etc. and that force depends on both the mass and acceleration of the opposing player.

Think of the "bone jarring" tackles from a lineman at the line of scrimmage who gets his legs into an RB hitting straight on. Not much acceleration from the DT, but a lot of mass with it.

Rather than hit the person with an open palm as you suggested, try using a sledgehammer. How fast do you have to swing it? Not very.

Mass counts!

[Patler]

As I see it, the properties are all linked, but acceleration is the key. How quickly the head changes directions dominates how much the brain is jarred.

Relative acceleration of the brain and skull are important, because their masses do not change from one hit to another. But you are thinking of only half of the problem. To create those changes in acceleration to the skull and brain you have to apply force, the force applied from another player is determined by both the mass and acceleration of that player. Lessen the mass and you lessen the force. Lessen the force applied by player #2 and you lessen the acceleration of player #1's brain and skull.

[sharpe1027]

Maybe, but wouldn't you have to assume that a player's head is (relatively) independent from the rest of the player and that whatever is striking the player's head is dependent on the striking player's mass?

Otherwise, you just have situation where player A and B reduce their mass, reduce their force, but result in the same acceleration. Or you would have the situation where their masses don't matter at all.

Many concussions result from slamming to the turf (often largely determined by the acceleration of gravity), hitting the head with another player's head (mostly determined by speed of impact), or the head striking an extremity (knee or leg) of a another player (not very dependent on the total mass of player).

Basically my point is that a bunch of super fast little guys are probably nearly as likely to get concussions as a bunch of super fast big guys.

Broken bones, bruising and destroyed tendons are a completely different issue. :lol:

[Patler]

Maybe, but wouldn't you have to assume that a player's head is (relatively) independent from the rest of the player and that whatever is striking the player's head is dependent on the striking player's mass?

Otherwise, you just have situation where player A and B reduce their mass, reduce their force, but result in the same acceleration. Or you would have the situation where their masses don't matter at all.

The mass of the player who you are concerned with is also important. The mass of each player is important due to all those things about bodies at rest wanting to stay at rest, moving bodies resisting changes, etc. Then, of course the brain in the skull is a whole different but related system to the larger system of the bodies. Then, too, there are shock absorbing effects (with consequences sometimes) of a players neck, their body types and characteristics have impact, etc. These "accidents" are actually quite complex.


Many concussions result from slamming to the turf (often largely determined by the acceleration of gravity), hitting the head with another player's head (mostly determined by speed of impact), or the head striking an extremity (knee or leg) of a another player (not very dependent on the total mass of player).

Basically my point is that a bunch of super fast little guys are probably nearly as likely to get concussions as a bunch of super fast big guys.

Broken bones, bruising and destroyed tendons are a completely different issue. :lol:

I never discounted speed. In fact, I facetiously suggested making the players smaller and slower to decrease the incidents of concussion, and I stick by that! :lol:

[Noodle]

Mass times acceleration equals force, right?

You won't affect mass, but you can affect acceleration by making players a little more wary. And the way you do that is to make the players feel a little less invunerable by changing the helmet from a weapon, which it is today, in to a protective device.

BTW, squishy material as a shell does not work for a helmet, because it causes torque injuries. A plastic shell is good at reducing torque, but so would a leather shell.

[Maxie the Taxi]

The Future!

http://blogs.hatclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/img-9175.jpg

[RashanGary]

Rather than hit the person with an open palm as you suggested, try using a sledgehammer. How fast do you have to swing it? Not very.

Mass counts!


Try organizing that same sledge hammer mass into the shape and materials of a person and rather than focusing all of the mass into jsut the striking head, organize it throughout a body.


Mass counts, like I said from teh very start, but the importance you're putting on it, comparing it to F=MA and a sledge hammer, I think you're putting way more importance on it than it has in this application. Way over simplifying it.

Not saying I have it all figured out, but I disagreed with some of your logic.

[Patler]

Mass times acceleration equals force, right?

You won't affect mass, but you can affect acceleration by making players a little more wary. And the way you do that is to make the players feel a little less invunerable by changing the helmet from a weapon, which it is today, in to a protective device.


That is the exact argument that has been made in hockey, which has had mandated helmet use for only 25 years or so. Players think they are invulnerable, and their opponents are "depersonalized" by wearing helmets.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Mass times acceleration equals force, right?

You won't affect mass, but you can affect acceleration by making players a little more wary. And the way you do that is to make the players feel a little less invunerable by changing the helmet from a weapon, which it is today, in to a protective device.


That is the exact argument that has been made in hockey, which has had mandated helmet use for only 25 years or so. Players think they are invulnerable, and their opponents are "depersonalized" by wearing helmets.

Maybe they should outlaw jock straps and cups too. Talk about "depersonalizing" the opposition.

[sharpe1027]

The mass of the player who you are concerned with is also important. The mass of each player is important due to all those things about bodies at rest wanting to stay at rest, moving bodies resisting changes, etc. Then, of course the brain in the skull is a whole different but related system to the larger system of the bodies. Then, too, there are shock absorbing effects (with consequences sometimes) of a players neck, their body types and characteristics have impact, etc. These "accidents" are actually quite complex.

Yeah, but unless there is a disparity between the masses of the two objects, increasing or decreasing the masses of each player cancels any changes. i.e., one player wants to stay in motion, the other wants to remain stopped, changing the ratio of their masses is the only thing that will modify the overall acceleration.



I never discounted speed. In fact, I facetiously suggested making the players smaller and slower to decrease the incidents of concussion, and I stick by that! :lol:

I just think that having a bunch of smaller players won't have much of an effect. Adjusting the relative size differences between players might, but not making everyone smaller.

[Patler]

Rather than hit the person with an open palm as you suggested, try using a sledgehammer. How fast do you have to swing it? Not very.

Mass counts!


Try organizing that same sledge hammer mass into the shape of a person and rather than focusing all of the mass into jsut the striking head, organize it throughout a body.


Mass counts, like I said from teh very start, but the importance you're putting on it, comparing it to F=MA and a sledge hammer, I think you're putting way more importance on it than it has in this application. Way over simplifying it.

Not saying I have it all figured out, but I disagreed with some of your logic.

Actually, all I said was if you make the players smaller and slower you would have fewer concussions. Others immediately questioned if mass mattered at all, and I have said that it does. Force is important, whether force on the body or force of the impact of the brain against the skull. The mass of the skull and brain do not change, so in that small part of the system acceleration would seem to rule in determining force. But, changing that acceleration requires force, so mass comes into play, too.

Now we could look at which has mattered more, players going from "x lbs." to "y lbs" or from former speeds to current speeds, but there are too many anatomical variations from player to player to really have much validity.

I stick by the premise I put forth, if you have slower and smaller players you will have fewer concussions. You will never eliminate them. Some players get concussions without direct skull impact, some get them from fairly insignificant actions.

I think the real problem is the air headed players. Too much room in their skills for their pea-sized brains to bounce around! :lol: :lol:

[pbmax]

Speed and mass are not the only reasons concussions have increased, though they can make them worse. The techniques modern players use subjects them to a greater risk of concussions as well. Especially for non-lineman.

The problem created by the modern helmet, is that it allows players to both lead with their head on a hit and use it as a weapon. They are is little danger of a laceration (unless you are Chuck Cecil) or a skull fracture, as these were the kinds of injuries the modern helmet and facemask were designed to solve.

We see examples of players doing this every game, whether to deliver the kill shot on a receiver catching the ball or a player trying to knock the ball loose from a RB. And contrary to their public pronouncements, coaches teach (sometimes) and reward (always) this kind of hit.

When helmets were not such surefire protection against an injury that would cause you to leave the game, different techniques were used. In rugby, I have read, players in many situations are taught to put their head behind the runner they are tacking. If you stood a chance of a fracture or laceration that would take you out of the game, LBs and DBs would not be so fast to use the crown of the helmet to try and cause a fumble.

But there are situations where there are no analogues to football plays for safety guidance. 5 offensive lineman and 4 or five defensive players collide on every play on the LOS and often collide head first. The resulting G forces of these hits can reach between 20 and 30 Gs. Not as high as more spectacular collisions, but they happen every play. A fundamental change would need to happen in football to reduce these collisions or change their point of impact. Player caution would only be one step. Line play, technique and rules would need to change dramatically as well.

[Guiness]

The use of helmets in hockey is relatively recent. It wasn't too many years ago (10 years or so) there were still a few NHL players who did not wear them as they were "grandfathered in" under the old rules. Many argue that the use of helmets changed the game dramatically, making it more violent, with players not respecting each other's or their own vulnerabilities, and actually increasing the frequency of concussions as a result.

Put me (at least partially) in that camp.

In theory, a good idea. Ice is hard, you get knocked on you can and bounce your melon off the ice, it can do a lot of damage. Helmets prevent that.

Problem is, helmets went on, sticks came up. A stick bouncing harmlessly off someone's helmet gets you a dirty look. A stick hitting someone in the head gets you beat up.

It got worse with the face shields, which mostly came about because there were a few high profile cases of someone getting hit full in the face with a puck.

One of the problems hockey suffers from is that players have gotten bigger, faster and stronger. The problem is more apparent in hockey because of the very limited space the game is played in. The average NHL player is 25lbs heavier than he was just before the expansion of the league in '67.

[Guiness]

Quite the thread...


Many concussions result from slamming to the turf (often largely determined by the acceleration of gravity), hitting the head with another player's head (mostly determined by speed of impact), or the head striking an extremity (knee or leg) of a another player (not very dependent on the total mass of player).

This is because of the rapid acceleration by these sort of hits. When your head hits the frozen ground (or a very hard knee, or skull) there is no 'give'. It goes from whatever speed directly to zero in a short period of time - resulting in a very high acceleration.

If the speed drops from 10m/s to 0m/s in 0.01 seconds, the acceleration is 10x greater than if the speed change occurred in 0.1 seconds - for a relatively small change in time of 0.09 seconds!

True that these types of injuries aren't necessarily affected by player's mass, and I think they've always been around. Rugby suddenly becomes a much more dangerous sport when the temperature drops in the Great White North!

[ThunderDan]

Quite the thread...


Many concussions result from slamming to the turf (often largely determined by the acceleration of gravity), hitting the head with another player's head (mostly determined by speed of impact), or the head striking an extremity (knee or leg) of a another player (not very dependent on the total mass of player).

This is because of the rapid acceleration by these sort of hits. When your head hits the frozen ground (or a very hard knee, or skull) there is no 'give'. It goes from whatever speed directly to zero in a short period of time - resulting in a very high acceleration.

If the speed drops from 10m/s to 0m/s in 0.01 seconds, the acceleration is 10x greater than if the speed change occurred in 0.1 seconds - for a relatively small change in time of 0.09 seconds!

True that these types of injuries aren't necessarily affected by player's mass, and I think they've always been around. Rugby suddenly becomes a much more dangerous sport when the temperature drops in the Great White North!

And as we all remember from physics.

F=ma
F=1/2mvv (velocity squared)

Players and hits that are going twice as fast deliver 4x the force.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I'll simplify this for all you eggheads:

The bigger the hit, the bigger the hurt. :D :D :D

[Fritz]

Make the nfl a league for "little people" and you'd decrease both the speed and size of the players and eliminate the problem.

This could be fun.