Packer Pro Bowl Snubs

[SnakeLH2006]

http://www.totalpackers.com/2010/01/01/the-packers-pro-bowl-snubs/

The Packers Pro Bowl Snubs
2010-01-01

C'mon people!

Every year there are guys who get elected to the Pro Bowl who don’t deserve to be there. Every year there are guys who are more deserving who get left off the squad.

The Green Bay Packers have three deserving Pro Bowlers in Aaron Rodgers, Charles Woodson and Nick Collins, but they also have two guys that have a pretty good argument for being snubbed – running back Ryan Grant and outside linebacker Clay Matthews.

Let’s look at their arguments.

The running backs on the NFC squad are Minnesota’s Adrian Peterson, St. Louis’ Steven Jackson and Carolina’s DeAngelo Williams. Peterson and Jackson most certainly deserve to be on the squad. Jackson is first in the NFC with 1,353 yards. Peterson is second with 1,329 and leads the NFL with 15 touchdowns.

The questionable inclusion is clearly DeAngelo Williams. While Williams has had a good season, most of Grant’s numbers are better (NFC rank in parenthesis). Yards per carry rank based on players with 200-plus carries.

Grant: 1,202 yards (3), 10 touchdowns (tie-2), 4.4 ypc (5)
Williams: 1,117 yards (4), 7 touchdowns (tie-7), 5.2 ypc (1)

Williams’ yards per carry is certainly impressive, but he’s also lost three fumbles to Grant’s one, and he’s missed two games. You might argue that Williams missing two games only makes what he’s done more impressive, but then I’d ask you why Cedric Benson isn’t on the AFC roster. Durability counts. Factor in the fact that the Packers are 10-5 and the Panthers are 7-8 and Grant has a strong case.

Matthews, who was beaten out by Dallas’ DeMarcus Ware, Chicago’s Lance Briggs and Washington’s Brian Orakpo, has an even stronger case.

Ware is the most deserving of the group. He’s a consistent pass rushing force who has 11 sacks this season, tied for fourth in the NFC. He also has 56 tackles, an impressive five forced fumbles and he’s the heart of the 10-5 Cowboys’ 3-4 defense.

Briggs and Orakpo? Matthews is better than both of them.

Somehow Briggs was elected as a starter, even though he’s having a sub-par season. His numbers don’t look bad – 106 tackles, 2.5 sacks, 1 interception – but if you’ve seen Briggs play this season, you know he just isn’t making plays. Briggs has been banged up, but considering Brian Urlacher hasn’t played since week one, Briggs should have 20 more tackles than he does.

However, since Briggs was elected, let’s focus on Orakpo.

Matthews: 51 tackles, 10 sacks, 1 forced fumble
Orakpo: 48 tackles, 11 sacks, 1 forced fumble

The numbers are similar, but Matthews didn’t become a starter until the fourth game of the season while Orakpo started from day one. Orakpo should get credit for being an opening day starter, but the fact that Matthews has achieved similar numbers in three fewer starts speaks to the impact he’s made.

Of Orakpo’s 11 sacks, four came in week 14 against the Raiders. They’re the only four sacks he’s had in the last six games. Over the last six games, Matthews has six sacks and they came in four different games.

Finally, I have to point out the fact that Orakpo plays in a 4-3 defense and he’s only registered 48 tackles. To give you an idea of what an outside linebacker’s stats should look like in a 4-3, take a look at Briggs, who has 106 tackles in a bad year.

The Packers defense is ranked second in the league (first in the NFC), the Redskins is 11th (fifth). The Packers are 10-5, the Redskins are 4-11.

Can someone tell me what I’m missing here?

Maybe it’s the joke, because that’s what choosing Orakpo over Matthews is – a joke.

-----------------------------

Personally, I like when we get snubbed from the Pro Bowl...less money for them and easier to resign, but let's look at it.

Ryan Grant....most have known Snake has been advocating replacing him for the last year.

Lately, he's shown some explosiveness....Breaking off big runs....But I think that has to do with some great blocking lately and cohesiveness with the starting OL (Cliffy/Tauch healthy)...Grant is a back who I don't wanna diss given he's done well lately, but hate me, I still want a top OT or RB with our #1 pick in the 2010 draft. Why, Grant is already old. He's done well lately, but if that OL is not doing ok, he really struggles. I like Ryan lately, but he does not make the OL good, the OL makes him decent. He's not worthy of the Pro Bowl....at all. I cringe seeing his "no vision "...seen it last week despite his "big TD" get lost and run into the back of the OL repeatedly. His numbers are ok, but still would like a young college back like Spiller at our draft pick at #1 or so. I'm also not impressed with BJack despite his TD's last week. They are ok, but neither are close to being top notch guys you must stop. Grant did well, but I'd like to replace him by 2012 when he's 30.

Clay Matthews....Well, he's been a beast. Fun watching him every play as his explosiveness/body control doing crazy almost falling down shit and hustle is awesome. Is he a Pro-Bowler long time? For sure!!! He's awesome...and even like Brad Jones with our 7th rounder giving hustle lately. The future is bright!.....

The only problem is I've seen Orakpo play on a shitty D, doubleteamed most of the time or chipped by the RB or TE, and just beast out. Orakpo deserves it, as he's played a bit better than Matthews (who came on late) and really is a phenom on the edge. Matthews is close, but Orakpo is just a bit better. It's rare that Matthews (seen all the games) has faced any type of chip or doubleteam. This takes nothing away from CMatty, but he's not faced the same type of impediment vs. the OL/TE/RB trying to stop him, thus far.

These views from Snake are not homer views, but realistic NFL views. Neither one got into the Pro Bowl...both had deece stats, but both lost out honorably. Matthews will get there soon, as he's quickly become one of my fav. players.

[3irty1]

Orakpo isn't a true OLB, he lines up as a DE on passing downs. So his tackles don't bother me. He was more prolific coming out of college so this isn't a surprise.

Grant is a very good player but is he cream of the crop in the NFC? Probably not. He's a workhorse and a roll player but the pro bowl is for a different type of back.

[Bretsky]

I think a good case can be made for Matthews; on a better defense with more success and he's been a big part of that. To me he's more deserving that Orakpo. Briggs made it on his name.

To me Ryan Grant should not be in the Pro Bowl. Not a snub at all

[Fritz]

Agree with Bretsky on Grant. He's good. He's a good running back. But the pro bowl's not about good.

[pbmax]

How about some consistency from the author? Grant should be elected for starting all the games but Matthews should be elected for not?

That said, Matthews is the more deserving choice. But Orakpo made a name for himself earlier in the season and by the time Matthews caught him, he would have had to completely blow by him to catch the attention of the voters. But since then they have stayed relatively even.

[red]

deangelo > grant

its not even close. grant is a good RB, not great

williams is near that elite status IMO

[bobblehead]

How about some consistency from the author? Grant should be elected for starting all the games but Matthews should be elected for not?

That said, Matthews is the more deserving choice. But Orakpo made a name for himself earlier in the season and by the time Matthews caught him, he would have had to completely blow by him to catch the attention of the voters. But since then they have stayed relatively even.

always love your perspective PB, I agree with this. Mathews is definately a star in the making. Stats be damned, I can watch a game and see how he can almost take it over at times. The man makes big plays at big moments. He will be a long term pro bowler, but it was hard for him to catch orakpo in most peoples minds.

[Bretsky]

How about some consistency from the author? Grant should be elected for starting all the games but Matthews should be elected for not?

That said, Matthews is the more deserving choice. But Orakpo made a name for himself earlier in the season and by the time Matthews caught him, he would have had to completely blow by him to catch the attention of the voters. But since then they have stayed relatively even.

always love your perspective PB, I agree with this. Mathews is definately a star in the making. Stats be damned, I can watch a game and see how he can almost take it over at times. The man makes big plays at big moments. He will be a long term pro bowler, but it was hard for him to catch orakpo in most peoples minds.


Great Post; when I think Pro Bowl I think playmaker...guy that is special at his position. Matthews has been that this year.

When I think special at their position, I don't think Ryan Grant. I'd get flamed but there are other RB's I'd take before him out of the NFC that didn't make the Pro Bowl either.

[Patler]

Grant is a solid 1250 yards/year back (929 yards in 10 games in '07, 1200+ in '08 and '09). String that together for a number of years, and at some time or another he will make a Pro Bowl, and he should. In any one year he might not due to others having better seasons, but over time his consistency is likely to be rewarded, sort of like Driver and Henderson. If Grant was a better receiver, it would be hard to keep him out.

Grant is a pretty darn good back for the Packers to have. His style works well on grass and in deteriorating weather late in the season. He has shown that for three year, with his best games at the end of the season.. Some of the "elite" runners might not fare so well on those types of fields. It shouldn't be overlooked that as a ball carrier he has just 4 fumbles in 771 carries. That's a stat that won't earn points toward the pro bowl, but is important to what the Packers try to emphasize.

I think it is funny that we as fans perceive the O-line to be quite bad and Grant to be sort of "average". I'm not sure those are consistent with one another. An average back running behind a poor line doesn't gain 1200 yards, in my opinion. I'm not sure an average back behind an average line gains 1200 yards. I suspect the line is sort of average, and Grant is better than we give him credit for.

I think Grant is to running backs what Driver is to wide receivers. Not the best in the league, but not that easy to replace either.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Grant is a solid 1250 yards/year back (929 yards in 10 games in '07, 1200+ in '08 and '09). String that together for a number of years, and at some time or another he will make a Pro Bowl, and he should. In any one year he might not due to others having better seasons, but over time his consistency is likely to be rewarded, sort of like Driver and Henderson. If Grant was a better receiver, it would be hard to keep him out.

Grant is a pretty darn good back for the Packers to have. His style works well on grass and in deteriorating weather late in the season. He has shown that for three year, with his best games at the end of the season.. Some of the "elite" runners might not fare so well on those types of fields. It shouldn't be overlooked that as a ball carrier he has just 4 fumbles in 771 carries. That's a stat that won't earn points toward the pro bowl, but is important to what the Packers try to emphasize.

I think it is funny that we as fans perceive the O-line to be quite bad and Grant to be sort of "average". I'm not sure those are consistent with one another. An average back running behind a poor line doesn't gain 1200 yards, in my opinion. I'm not sure an average back behind an average line gains 1200 yards. I suspect the line is sort of average, and Grant is better than we give him credit for.

I think Grant is to running backs what Driver is to wide receivers. Not the best in the league, but not that easy to replace either.

Excellent points Patler and a very good comparison to Driver.

[Fritz]

Which leads me back to the point, which is that I don't think Grant is a pro bowl guy. He's good, don't get me wrong. I think Driver's good, too, but not a pro bowler.

[gex]

Grant is ok in my book, but 1200+ in a 16 game season is not overly impressive these days(if healthy and the main rb for the team).
That's 75yds/game and at 20+ carries about 3.75 ypc.
What should you expect from your main rb in a full season? I would say he is doing is job well and staying off the trainers table(always a plus)

[Fritz]

He is a good running back; don't get me wrong. Better than Edgar Bennett, I think, and a better runner than Levens though not as good a pass catcher. One of his biggest assets is his lack of fumbling, knock on wood. That is huge.

[Patler]

Grant is ok in my book, but 1200+ in a 16 game season is not overly impressive these days(if healthy and the main rb for the team).
That's 75yds/game and at 20+ carries about 3.75 ypc.
What should you expect from your main rb in a full season? I would say he is doing is job well and staying off the trainers table(always a plus)

Sounds easy enough, but generally in any one year only about 9 or 10 backs get over 1200 yards. So far this season 8 have, and only DeAngelo Williams is between 1100 and 1200. It seems like something that should be readily attainable, but it isn't as common as you might think; and if you have a back that stays healthy enough and consistent enough to do it year after year, that means something too.

[Bretsky]

Grant is interesting to consider for the Pro Bowl
OK here is an exercise

Playing for one year

List every NFC RB you'd take over Ryan Grant. I'll do this later but my wife is nicely telling me we have to leave for the relatives.

There are probably two RB's in Carolina I'd take over Ryan Grant

[Gunakor]

Grant is interesting to consider for the Pro Bowl
OK here is an exercise

Playing for one year

List every NFC RB you'd take over Ryan Grant. I'll do this later but my wife is nicely telling me we have to leave for the relatives.

There are probably two RB's in Carolina I'd take over Ryan Grant

But there aren't two RB's in Carolina with the stats to back it up.

In a perfect world the Pro Bowl would honor those players who were most productive in that single season. If you're top 3 or 4 in your conference at your position you go, even if that means a more recognizable name with lesser production has to stay home.

It shouldn't be a vote in the first place because it shouldn't be a popularity contest. People vote for names. I'd rather people vote for numbers. In this world Bretsky is right, there's probably over a half dozen backs I'd rather see in the Pro Bowl. More entertaining and all. But that doesn't mean there's a half dozen more deserving. And there ain't 2 backs in Carolina who have each had a better 2009 season than Grant.

[DonHutson]

As far as the stat comparison between Grant and Williams it should be noted that Williams shares the backfield with Jonathon Stewart, a pretty good back in his own right. Grant hasn't had to share much this year.

There were also lots of injuries in the NFC this year to guys like Westbrook, Portis, and Gore. The reality is that Grant is a solid workhorse type, but not special at all.

Certainly you can make a good case that he should be in this year, but in a typical year I don't consider him a Pro Bowl caliber back.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Grant is ok in my book, but 1200+ in a 16 game season is not overly impressive these days(if healthy and the main rb for the team).
That's 75yds/game and at 20+ carries about 3.75 ypc.
What should you expect from your main rb in a full season? I would say he is doing is job well and staying off the trainers table(always a plus)
Grant doesn't have 20+ carries/game this year and his avg is a healthy 4.4 ypc. So he's better than you are giving him credit for.

Had he been getting at least 20 carries/game at his current avg, he would have 1320 yds this season at this point. Would he then be better than ok?

[Scott Campbell]

I don't really care about the Pro Bowl, or the popularity contest preceding it.

[Bossman641]

Grant is interesting to consider for the Pro Bowl
OK here is an exercise

Playing for one year

List every NFC RB you'd take over Ryan Grant. I'll do this later but my wife is nicely telling me we have to leave for the relatives.

There are probably two RB's in Carolina I'd take over Ryan Grant

I'd take

AD
Jonathan Stewart
DeAngelo Williams
Steven Jackson
Frank Gore
Michael Turner

Portis misses the cut due to his age and workload he has carried
Barber just misses, same with Felix Jones
Forte is too unproven to me
I'd take Westbrook but his current year bumps him off
Pierre Thomas is on the cutline but I stick with Grant for now

The thing that really makes Grant look bad is his receiving ability

[ICU81MI]

Grant is interesting to consider for the Pro Bowl
OK here is an exercise

Playing for one year

List every NFC RB you'd take over Ryan Grant. I'll do this later but my wife is nicely telling me we have to leave for the relatives.

There are probably two RB's in Carolina I'd take over Ryan Grant

Off the top of my head:

1. Chris Johnson
2. Adrian Peterson
3. Maurice Jones-Drew
4. Stephen Jackson
5. Ray Rice
6. Deangelo Williams
7. Ronnie Brown
8. Jonathan Stewart
9. Frank Gore
10. Marion Barber
11. Cedric Benson
12. Steve Slaton
13. Michael Turner

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Grant is interesting to consider for the Pro Bowl
OK here is an exercise

Playing for one year

List every NFC RB you'd take over Ryan Grant. I'll do this later but my wife is nicely telling me we have to leave for the relatives.

There are probably two RB's in Carolina I'd take over Ryan Grant

Off the top of my head:

1. Chris Johnson
2. Adrian Peterson
3. Maurice Jones-Drew
4. Stephen Jackson
5. Ray Rice
6. Deangelo Williams
7. Ronnie Brown
8. Jonathan Stewart
9. Frank Gore
10. Marion Barber
11. Cedric Benson
12. Steve Slaton
13. Michael Turner

He asked NFC, not NFL.:oops:

Since an RB is also about receiving, gotta put several guys ahead of Grant. Hence putting Forte, gore, jackson ahead of grant. 50 receptions counts for something.

In no particular order:

1. AD or Chester Taylor (can ANYONE tell ty taylor wouldn't be the bomb in greenbay with our offense? Get him TT!)
2. Stephen Jackson.
3. Gore
4. Turner
5. Deangelo
6. Forte (ty is going with the thought that it isn't forte..it is a combo of cutler, bad offense, and terrible line)
7. Beanie Wells (going to be a monster)
8. Stewart
9. Westbrook

Guys that i might consider before Grant
1. Jacobs
2. McCoy (iggles guy)
3. Pierre Thomas
4. Ahmad Bradshaw
5. Portis (gotta see how much he has left physically and mentally)
6. Barber

Guys that Ty wonders about

1. Kevin Smith
2. Felix Jones
3. Cadillac and Ward
4. Justin Forsett. Can do it all.

[DonHutson]

I don't really care about the Pro Bowl, or the popularity contest preceding it.

I don't care about the game, and I would gladly do without Minnesota ballot box stuffing... I mean fan voting.

While the method of putting the team together could be tweaked, it's still an honor to be named.

[GBRulz]

It sure would be nice to see Rodgers, Woodson and Collins NOT play in the Pro Bowl this year :wink:

[SnakeLH2006]

To make this clear....CMatty could've went to the Pro Bowl over Orakpo...That was just too close to call. Grant is a good back (the best I'll EVER say about him there) but is not elite or near the top backs.

Is anyone aware that he just got his massive bonuses for getting 1250 yards which he just skated by to get? I noticed Grant only ran hard as all hell in the past 3 weeks of this season (coincidence....hell no). He ran nuts out last week in a meaningless game to end the season and was SUPER GIDDY when I noticed he got his 1250th (barely yard...after the run and on the sideline...unbelievably giddy, but was aware of his yards when I saw it)...he was only running hard (the hardest I EVER seen him run) for his cash the past few weeks. He's ok, but really has some Antonio Freeman syndromitis. He got paid. Doubt he runs that hard next season and nearing 30....he's old. He ran his ass off to get those late season yards to get his millions (he made several millions with the 1250 plateau he barely reached). Makes me sick.

At least Matthews is a bone-a-fied star to boot. That kid is pure hustle EVERY play....like Bretsky said....he looks the part of elite player and will get better. Grant....hell no...

Here's the question....if you had to take one to stay and one to leave....how many would pick Grant over Matthews as a guy we need? I doubt from 1000's of Rats that ANYONE would pick Grant. I still wanna dump him. He's replaceable. Matthews has exhibited elite talent. We love that guy if you watch the games...Grant is a stat stuffer. Nuff said.

[Patler]

To make this clear....CMatty could've went to the Pro Bowl over Orakpo...That was just too close to call. Grant is a good back (the best I'll EVER say about him there) but is not elite or near the top backs.

Is anyone aware that he just got his massive bonuses for getting 1250 yards which he just skated by to get? I noticed Grant only ran hard as all hell in the past 3 weeks of this season (coincidence....hell no). He ran nuts out last week in a meaningless game to end the season and was SUPER GIDDY when I noticed he got his 1250th (barely yard...after the run and on the sideline...unbelievably giddy, but was aware of his yards when I saw it)...he was only running hard (the hardest I EVER seen him run) for his cash the past few weeks. He's ok, but really has some Antonio Freeman syndromitis. He got paid. Doubt he runs that hard next season and nearing 30....he's old. He ran his ass off to get those late season yards to get his millions (he made several millions with the 1250 plateau he barely reached). Makes me sick.

At least Matthews is a bone-a-fied star to boot. That kid is pure hustle EVERY play....like Bretsky said....he looks the part of elite player and will get better. Grant....hell no...

Here's the question....if you had to take one to stay and one to leave....how many would pick Grant over Matthews as a guy we need? I doubt from 1000's of Rats that ANYONE would pick Grant. I still wanna dump him. He's replaceable. Matthews has exhibited elite talent. We love that guy if you watch the games...Grant is a stat stuffer. Nuff said.

Well, last year Grant barely missed the same bonus level, and would have had it but for the replay challenge that turned his 80 yard TD run into a 21 yard gain in the last game of the year. One year he barely missed it, one year he barely got it. When you have bonuses that kick in every 250 yards like Grant has (1000, 1250, and 1500 yards), it seems likely that he will either barely get one or barely miss one.

So now the past few weeks he was running hard for his bonus? Two months ago people on here wrote that Grant was running harder than they had ever seen, and credited it to the example set by the recently signed Ahman Green. In my opinion, Grant is and has been running as he always has, but for some reason many do not want to give him credit for what he does. There seems to be a need by some to lessen it instead of just recognizing it for what it is; good, solid but unspectacular play that apparently meets team expectations because he falls right in the middle of the yardage bonus scale they set for him.

[SnakeLH2006]

To make this clear....CMatty could've went to the Pro Bowl over Orakpo...That was just too close to call. Grant is a good back (the best I'll EVER say about him there) but is not elite or near the top backs.

Is anyone aware that he just got his massive bonuses for getting 1250 yards which he just skated by to get? I noticed Grant only ran hard as all hell in the past 3 weeks of this season (coincidence....hell no). He ran nuts out last week in a meaningless game to end the season and was SUPER GIDDY when I noticed he got his 1250th (barely yard...after the run and on the sideline...unbelievably giddy, but was aware of his yards when I saw it)...he was only running hard (the hardest I EVER seen him run) for his cash the past few weeks. He's ok, but really has some Antonio Freeman syndromitis. He got paid. Doubt he runs that hard next season and nearing 30....he's old. He ran his ass off to get those late season yards to get his millions (he made several millions with the 1250 plateau he barely reached). Makes me sick.

At least Matthews is a bone-a-fied star to boot. That kid is pure hustle EVERY play....like Bretsky said....he looks the part of elite player and will get better. Grant....hell no...

Here's the question....if you had to take one to stay and one to leave....how many would pick Grant over Matthews as a guy we need? I doubt from 1000's of Rats that ANYONE would pick Grant. I still wanna dump him. He's replaceable. Matthews has exhibited elite talent. We love that guy if you watch the games...Grant is a stat stuffer. Nuff said.

Well, last year Grant barely missed the same bonus level, and would have had it but for the replay challenge that turned his 80 yard TD run into a 21 yard gain in the last game of the year. One year he barely missed it, one year he barely got it. When you have bonuses that kick in every 250 yards like Grant has (1000, 1250, and 1500 yards), it seems likely that he will either barely get one or barely miss one.

So now the past few weeks he was running hard for his bonus? Two months ago people on here wrote that Grant was running harder than they had ever seen, and credited it to the example set by the recently signed Ahman Green. In my opinion, Grant is and has been running as he always has, but for some reason many do not want to give him credit for what he does. There seems to be a need by some to lessen it instead of just recognizing it for what it is; good, solid but unspectacular play that apparently meets team expectations because he falls right in the middle of the yardage bonus scale they set for him.

Yep.

I'm sure you and most Rats have seen every game. IMO, he's run harder (trying hard to outdo his ability and run through tackles in the past month like I haven't seen him do since his 26 year old "rookie" year in 2007( where he tried and DID establish himself.

I'm not a Grant "hater", but really would like to upgrade to a 21-22 year old back with some burst. He did surprise me the past few weeks, but his run burst sure took off when he knew his bonus came about, and I suspected it, but was damn sure looking at him after a 2 yard gain, and and on the sidelines looking giddier than a school girl on free sparkler-tassles give-a-way day at an ice-skating spectacular after his 1250th yard.

HUGE GIVEAWAY. He really ran his nuts off hard late in the year, cuz those were worth SEVERAL MILLION DOLLARS. I stand by that. I know you are a Grant fan, Patler, and won't diss that, but diss the fact he ran (think you saw the same games...) harder than he EVER DID since early 2007 when he got his chance. Grant is just a tease. Antonio Freeman all over again. Guy ran really hard to get paid. Most probably weren't aware or weren't watching, but Snake WAS aware of his 1250 march to "paydom"....He's old and replaceable.....so I don't care...just draft someone to replace him in the next year or so....either way, it won't matter cuz he's an old RB.

[Patler]

I have been watching Grant ever since he was at Notre Dame. I have seen almost every carry he has ever had in college and the pros. I was aware of his bonus levels last year. I have been aware of his bonus levels this year.

What I have seen from Grant the last 3 games, the last 8 games, whatever, is what I have always seen from him. He has run that way all the way back to his days at ND. He has always run hard, not as punishing a runner as Green in his heyday and not with the same kind of balance, but I have never questioned his effort. So he was happy to have achieved the bonus level, so what? More important in my mind is that he never complained about barely missing it last year. He accepted it as just something that was.

With running backs, I think you always have to be looking for a replacement. They don't last at the top of their game for very long to begin with, and are prone to missing years here and there due to injuries. It is the rare back that can maintain a high level of performance for more than 5 years or so. The one thing Grant has going for him is that he has not yet logged a lot of carries for his age. Many seem to hit a wall of sorts based on punishment from carries as much as age itself.

[SnakeLH2006]

I have been watching Grant ever since he was at Notre Dame. I have seen almost every carry he has ever had in college and the pros. I was aware of his bonus levels last year. I have been aware of his bonus levels this year.

What I have seen from Grant the last 3 games, the last 8 games, whatever, is what I have always seen from him. He has run that way all the way back to his days at ND. He has always run hard, not as punishing a runner as Green in his heyday and not with the same kind of balance, but I have never questioned his effort. So he was happy to have achieved the bonus level, so what? More important in my mind is that he never complained about barely missing it last year. He accepted it as just something that was.

With running backs, I think you always have to be looking for a replacement. They don't last at the top of their game for very long to begin with, and are prone to missing years here and there due to injuries. It is the rare back that can maintain a high level of performance for more than 5 years or so. The one thing Grant has going for him is that he has not yet logged a lot of carries for his age. Many seem to hit a wall of sorts based on punishment from carries as much as age itself.

Just ran to the gas station wasted between these posts to get Snake some cigs..but yeah, I ackowledge Grant runs hard and respect you've seen him do so, thus, my acknowledgement to your Grant knowledge earlier....but I've seen EVERY game (as I'm sure you've too) since Grant became a Packer, and have SEEN a new burst lately since he became aware of his closeness to 1250. That's all. He runs hard, rarely with any type of vision (where's Madtown when I need him?), but lately he's displayed the same no vision (those same games lately he's run into the back of his OL) but more killer high-steps to get the yards.....I've seen it, my buddies I watch the games with have seen it...He's an ok back, but really, he's run hard as fuck in the last 3 games of the year (it means millions)....that's what I saw. Either way, he's ok, but I want a 21-22 year old young back instead of his 28-29 year old self in a year. I respect your love of Grant, Patler, but he's already old, and want fresh legs soon...that's all.

Grant is only going downhill from here...and there's about 30+ backs in the NFL I'd rather have than Ryan Grant right now (and probably 12 in the 2010 draft to boot). Who cares? He's ok. I wasn't disputing he's ok, but I want an upgrade.

As far as Matthews....I wouldn't trade that guy for much else. He's super young (22) and has demonstrated elite skills (Grant has none). Matthews could with Raji (who has flashed young 22 year old skills too) be the future of our D. Both guys have fluke skills that most don't have (bar any age) in the NFL, but have to put it together. Grant has none of those skills. He's dependable and old, and not elite or Pro-Bowl worthy.

Matthews is a stud. Grant is not.

[Patler]

Just ran to the gas station wasted between these posts to get Snake some cigs..but yeah, I ackowledge Grant runs hard and respect you've seen him do so, thus, my acknowledgement to your Grant knowledge earlier....but I've seen EVERY game (as I'm sure you've too) since Grant became a Packer, and have SEEN a new burst lately since he became aware of his closeness to 1250. That's all. He runs hard, rarely with any type of vision (where's Madtown when I need him?), but lately he's displayed the same no vision (those same games lately he's run into the back of his OL) but more killer high-steps to get the yards.....I've seen it, my buddies I watch the games with have seen it...He's an ok back, but really, he's run hard as fuck in the last 3 games of the year (it means millions)....that's what I saw. Either way, he's ok, but I want a 21-22 year old young back instead of his 28-29 year old self in a year. I respect your love of Grant, Patler, but he's already old, and want fresh legs soon...that's all.

Grant is only going downhill from here...and there's about 30+ backs in the NFL I'd rather have than Ryan Grant right now (and probably 12 in the 2010 draft to boot). Who cares? He's ok. I wasn't disputing he's ok, but I want an upgrade.

As far as Matthews....I wouldn't trade that guy for much else. He's super young (22) and has demonstrated elite skills (Grant has none). Matthews could with Raji (who has flashed young 22 year old skills too) be the future of our D. Both guys have fluke skills that most don't have (bar any age) in the NFL, but have to put it together. Grant has none of those skills. He's dependable and old, and not elite or Pro-Bowl worthy.

Matthews is a stud. Grant is not.

I don't "love" Grant at all. I just try to recognize him for the type of player he is. Since I know him personally not at all, I wouldn't ever assume to know his motivations. I just look at what I have seen having watched him in EVERY (I can use caps too! :lol: ) game as a Packer and probably EVERY (caps button still works!) at ND.

I never made any comparison at all between Grant and Mathews. Mathews appears to have a much higher potential at his position, but before classifying him as a stud I want to see how he handles his success. I have no reason to think that he will not handle it well, but again, since I know him not at all, I will wait to see before classifying him.

[RashanGary]

Grant has really grown on me. He''s very durable, runs very hard and he has top end speed.

He's not nifty, so he doesn't get as many intermediate runs (avoiding tacklers) but he is fast so he gets long runs and is tough so he does well in short runs.

If we had a star, I'd be happy to replace him, but I'm in no hurry. He's a damn good player.

[channtheman]

Snake, I have to disagree with what you're getting at. Why would someone not care (or not run hard) the first 13 games of the year, and then only try to run hard when they realize they are close to a bonus? Or maybe I should say it like this, he had to get 1200 yards before Sunday's game. You don't think he ever tried to get those yards? He just started trying when he knew he was in reach of the bonus? I don't know if I'm getting my point across, but hopefully you'll see what I'm saying.

I agree Grant is only average, and "good" at best and we should upgrade when we can, but I disagree that he only just started running harder than he ever did.

[packerbacker1234]

Orakpo is good...


but if mathews had those 3 extra games under his belt... the numbers wouldn't even be close.

[mission]

Grant's bonus was 1.5 million. Not "several million" as you said.

You kiddin Snake? You got a problem with a guy who has an incentive-based contract -- and who barely missed out on those incentives in the past -- to get a little $1.5 million for coming on strong at the end?

Maybe I'd believe all this if Grant hasn't shown us for three straight seasons that he gets better as the season goes on. This one has been no different.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Snake veering very close to Partial territory.

[mission]

Snake veering very close to Partial territory.

At least we know Snake was probably wasted late at night and got a little into it. Partial, I'm not sure that's the issue there. :lol:

[Scott Campbell]

I sorta miss Partial.

Flame away.

[SnakeLH2006]

Snake veering very close to Partial territory.

At least we know Snake was probably wasted late at night and got a little into it. Partial, I'm not sure that's the issue there. :lol:

Ty is veering dangerously close to CPK territory.

Either way, Grant still isn't that great. Replace him at some point. Matthews is a beast.

[Gunakor]

One should mention that since he first became a starter halfway through the 2007 season the only RB in the NFL with more rushing yards than Ryan Grant is Adrian Peterson. That's a 40 game sample. I would think that's big enough, eh?

Grant isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread, but he gets the job done. Not the best in the league, but up there. Top 10 in rushing, 2 years in a row, and the second most yards rushing over the past 40 games. That sucks in your opinion Snake? I'll take that in a heartbeat. That shit ain't easy.

[SnakeLH2006]

One should mention that since he first became a starter halfway through the 2007 season the only RB in the NFL with more rushing yards than Ryan Grant is Adrian Peterson. That's a 40 game sample. I would think that's big enough, eh?

Grant isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread, but he gets the job done. Not the best in the league, but up there. Top 10 in rushing, 2 years in a row, and the second most yards rushing over the past 40 games. That sucks in your opinion Snake? I'll take that in a heartbeat. That shit ain't easy.

Yeah, thanks for the post, Gun, buddy. I didn't notice you had posted and spent the last 10 min. editing my own post for Ty reasons without knowledge you had posted that making my post look like shit with the edits.

Thanks....Grant is not shit. But my point was his running hard to get his bonus.

He ran hard all year, but I saw a 6th gear (as my buddies did too I grill out with and watch the games with) in the past 3 games. Noone showed MORE effort that Grant did in the last game as he did to get that 1253rd yard to get his 1250. He ran with reckless abandon with eagle eyes to get it. He's not terrrible, but that's what we saw. He ran CRAZY esp. in the last game to get a couple million of bonus money in a game that meant nothing. ...Like REALLY HARD. Watch the game again....his feet/arms/legs were doing crazy shit as you are not coherent if you don't think he was aware of the 1250 million dollar plateau or showed crazy smilies when he got it after a meaningless run.

[Gunakor]

One should mention that since he first became a starter halfway through the 2007 season the only RB in the NFL with more rushing yards than Ryan Grant is Adrian Peterson. That's a 40 game sample. I would think that's big enough, eh?

Grant isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread, but he gets the job done. Not the best in the league, but up there. Top 10 in rushing, 2 years in a row, and the second most yards rushing over the past 40 games. That sucks in your opinion Snake? I'll take that in a heartbeat. That shit ain't easy.

Yeah, thanks for the post, Gun, buddy. I didn't notice you had posted and spent the last 10 min. editing my own post for Ty reasons without knowledge you had posted that making my post look like shit with the edits.

Thanks....Grant is not shit. But my point was his running hard to get his bonus.

He ran hard all year, but I saw a 6th gear (as my buddies did too I grill out with and watch the games with) in the past 3 games. Noone showed MORE effort that Grant did in the last game as he did to get that 1253rd yard to get his 1250. He ran with reckless abandon with eagle eyes to get it. He's not terrrible, but that's what we saw. He ran CRAZY esp. in the last game to get a couple million of bonus money in a game that meant nothing. ...Like REALLY HARD. Watch the game again....his feet/arms/legs were doing crazy shit as you are not coherent if you don't think he was aware of the 1250 million dollar plateau or showed crazy smilies when he got it after a meaningless run.

That's where my 40 game sample comes in. It's not just the last 3 games I'm talking about. He's been doing it for quite some time now. You don't get 3300 yards in 40 games by only giving effort in a select few of them. Otherwise there'd be dozens of backs doing it. Over the last 40 games the only 2 backs in the league with that many rushing yards are Grant and Peterson. That alone should be enough to convince anyone.

Now I'm not implying that Grant is the 2nd best back in the NFL, just that he's been the 2nd most productive from a yardage standpoint. And when you look at his yardage totals from one year to the next, he's also one of the most consistent.

[SnakeLH2006]

Grant has been solid. But, he's getting old soon. But I hear ya. He's been good, but I saw his Roger Craig-esque performance in the last game and his giddy smiles. You think at 29 he's gonna do the same or can we try some new drafted blood? I'm all for it, but understand your viewpoint, Gun. Regardless, Grant is no Pro-Bowler or elite specimen...stats be damned.

I'd still like to replace Grant with a young back in the next year.....and Ty with a new poster with a positive view for once, that doesn't drop negative barbs on everyone's posts.

[mraynrand]

One should mention that since he first became a starter halfway through the 2007 season the only RB in the NFL with more rushing yards than Ryan Grant is Adrian Peterson. That's a 40 game sample. I would think that's big enough, eh?

Grant isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread, but he gets the job done. Not the best in the league, but up there. Top 10 in rushing, 2 years in a row, and the second most yards rushing over the past 40 games. That sucks in your opinion Snake? I'll take that in a heartbeat. That shit ain't easy.

Yeah, thanks for the post, Gun, buddy. I didn't notice you had posted and spent the last 10 min. editing my own post for Ty reasons without knowledge you had posted that making my post look like shit with the edits.

Thanks....Grant is not shit. But my point was his running hard to get his bonus.

He ran hard all year, but I saw a 6th gear (as my buddies did too I grill out with and watch the games with) in the past 3 games. Noone showed MORE effort that Grant did in the last game as he did to get that 1253rd yard to get his 1250. He ran with reckless abandon with eagle eyes to get it. He's not terrrible, but that's what we saw. He ran CRAZY esp. in the last game to get a couple million of bonus money in a game that meant nothing. ...Like REALLY HARD. Watch the game again....his feet/arms/legs were doing crazy shit as you are not coherent if you don't think he was aware of the 1250 million dollar plateau or showed crazy smilies when he got it after a meaningless run.

That's where my 40 game sample comes in. It's not just the last 3 games I'm talking about. He's been doing it for quite some time now. You don't get 3300 yards in 40 games by only giving effort in a select few of them. Otherwise there'd be dozens of backs doing it. Over the last 40 games the only 2 backs in the league with that many rushing yards are Grant and Peterson. That alone should be enough to convince anyone.

Now I'm not implying that Grant is the 2nd best back in the NFL, just that he's been the 2nd most productive from a yardage standpoint. And when you look at his yardage totals from one year to the next, he's also one of the most consistent.

I agree with both of you. Consistent, hard-running back, pad level too high, more of a hammer, less elusive, less vision, was running like man possessed and giddy as shit to get that bonus. Who wouldn't be?