Atari Bigby

[RashanGary]

Is playing fantastic. Interceptions, big hits, run stuffing, not giving up big plays. . . What more can you ask for from a SS?


Very underrated player. I remember Vince saying he'd love to lock Bigby up, then after he was injured, retailguy just tore him apart with sarcasm and insults. The way Bigby is playing, I'd say Vince deserves some credit for taking the brunt and really not being wrong at all.

I also believe skinbasket owes Bigby an apology :)

[SkinBasket]

All I owe him is the common courtesy of knocking his nutsack out your mouth before the constant suction prevents him from ever having children.

How can a guy be so underrated when we've always got at least two threads on the front page (where this month's Atari Bigby is retarded/awesome discussion has already been played out) and a monthly JSO fluff piece dedicated to him?

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=19725

[pbmax]

...I also believe skinbasket owes Bigby an apology :)
And after I see that message, Fritz will give up the Drew Barrymore dream and Ty will admit defeat in an argument. :D

[retailguy]

Is playing fantastic. Interceptions, big hits, run stuffing, not giving up big plays. . . What more can you ask for from a SS?


Very underrated player. I remember Vince saying he'd love to lock Bigby up, then after he was injured, retailguy just tore him apart with sarcasm and insults. The way Bigby is playing, I'd say Vince deserves some credit for taking the brunt and really not being wrong at all.

I also believe skinbasket owes Bigby an apology :)

Stirring shit up again? If you recall, I disagreed with Vince's point to "lock up Bigby" based on 4 games performance. He was "exclusive rights" at the time and had no choice but to play for whatever GB offered him. It was not the time for an extension then, regardless of how he played. It was a moment of "fan exhuberance" for Vince (that's part of being a fan), and I did chide him heavily on it. He didn't appreciate it, and that's ok. Later, when I realized how offended he was, I did apologize for hurting his feelings. I also think that the remainder of that season exposed flaws in Bigby's game, flaws which remain today.

Bigby has had big issues related to coverage responsibilities. I once used the term that "Bigby couldn't cover with a blanket", and though that has improved, he is still not good in coverage. He can hit like a mack truck, but that's clearly his best trait. He is mediocre at best regarding coverage, and a few interceptions clustered together don't change my mind about his abilities. Should we resign him? Sure. Should we break the bank? No. When someone better comes along, we should draft them and replace him.

Stop stirring the pot. You aren't very good at it. Just enjoy the JSO fluff pieces....

[get louder at lambeau]

Bigby has had big issues related to coverage responsibilities. I once used the term that "Bigby couldn't cover with a blanket", and though that has improved, he is still not good in coverage.

I hear people say this a lot, but is it true? Compared to other STRONG safeties, not free safeties, is he bad in coverage? My impression is that he isn't, personally.

[retailguy]

Bigby has had big issues related to coverage responsibilities. I once used the term that "Bigby couldn't cover with a blanket", and though that has improved, he is still not good in coverage.

I hear people say this a lot, but is it true? Compared to other STRONG safeties, not free safeties, is he bad in coverage? My impression is that he isn't, personally.

Then I guess you, vince and Justin can "lock him up". I still won't be signing off on that deal because he isn't worth that kind of contract.

[SkinBasket]

Bigby has had big issues related to coverage responsibilities. I once used the term that "Bigby couldn't cover with a blanket", and though that has improved, he is still not good in coverage.

I hear people say this a lot, but is it true? Compared to other STRONG safeties, not free safeties, is he bad in coverage? My impression is that he isn't, personally.

I hear people say he can hit a lot, but is that true? I think you can still count his regular season "big hits" on one hand over his career here, and really they weren't any bigger than any other safety teeing off over the middle.

The guy has big hair and a funny name. Take that away and you really don't have much that distinguishes him from any other slow, injury prone, non instinctive safety with stiff hips that any team would be trying to replace at the earliest opportunity.

[mraynrand]

Bigby has had big issues related to coverage responsibilities. I once used the term that "Bigby couldn't cover with a blanket", and though that has improved, he is still not good in coverage.

I hear people say this a lot, but is it true? Compared to other STRONG safeties, not free safeties, is he bad in coverage? My impression is that he isn't, personally.

I don't doubt for a second that Bigby could cover you. It's NFL TEs, RBs and WRs that make him look silly. Might as well bring in Tank - I hear that he once dominated Darren Charles in high school.

[get louder at lambeau]

Bigby has had big issues related to coverage responsibilities. I once used the term that "Bigby couldn't cover with a blanket", and though that has improved, he is still not good in coverage.

I hear people say this a lot, but is it true? Compared to other STRONG safeties, not free safeties, is he bad in coverage? My impression is that he isn't, personally.

I hear people say he can hit a lot, but is that true? I think you can still count his regular season "big hits" on one hand over his career here, and really they weren't any bigger than any other safety teeing off over the middle.

The guy has big hair and a funny name. Take that away and you really don't have much that distinguishes him from any other slow, injury prone, non instinctive safety with stiff hips that any team would be trying to replace at the earliest opportunity.

Well, Bigby tied for 5th among all NFL safeties in INTs this year, and has been awarded a game ball in the last three consecutive weeks, so that might set him apart from SOME other slow, injury prone, non instinctive safeties with stiff hips that any team would be trying to replace at the earliest opportunity.

Also, (no I don't have a link, so feel free to verify) the Packers are something like 26-9 with Bigby in the game, and 4-8 without him.

[Patler]

Each year, JSO surveys one scout from each NFC North team at the end of the year to rank the players on the other teams to establish an All Star team. Bigby was the unanimous choice for #1 at SS, the first unanimous selection at SS since Butler.

[retailguy]

Each year, JSO surveys one scout from each NFC North team at the end of the year to rank the players on the other teams to establish an All Star team. Bigby was the unanimous choice for #1 at SS, the first unanimous selection at SS since Butler.

Sorry. I know Leroy Butler. Atari Bigby is no Leroy Butler.

That's kind of my point and my comparison. Happy that the scouts like him. Still don't believe he's all world. Maybe if he does it consistently for a while, but it's been up and down with him.

Again - he's better than anything else we've got. Maybe he's better than anybody else in the NFC North, but plenty in the league better than him. Just a guy right now, maybe on the cusp of being a lot better, but he's getting a little old for that, though he has been out injured, so maybe. Not yet, but maybe.

[swede]

Each year, JSO surveys one scout from each NFC North team at the end of the year to rank the players on the other teams to establish an All Star team. Bigby was the unanimous choice for #1 at SS, the first unanimous selection at SS since Butler.

Sorry. I know Leroy Butler. Atari Bigby is no Leroy Butler.

That's kind of my point and my comparison. Happy that the scouts like him. Still don't believe he's all world. Maybe if he does it consistently for a while, but it's been up and down with him.

Again - he's better than anything else we've got. Maybe he's better than anybody else in the NFC North, but plenty in the league better than him. Just a guy right now, maybe on the cusp of being a lot better, but he's getting a little old for that, though he has been out injured, so maybe. Not yet, but maybe.

The brilliance of your post here, RG, is that you can now take credit for having foreseen the disaster, the ordinariness, or the eventual supremacy of Atari Bigby.

In my home state of Minnesota we tended to talk the same way.

"I don't suppose it'll do any good but I might as well take the Ford up to Mankato and see if they can fix her up. I heard there's a mechanic up there that got Wally Severson another 8 miles to the gallon better out of that F-1 of his so maybe the guy can smooth out the idle and do the same for me but with my luck I'll probably have to junk the old rust bucket. At any rate if we can get the old Ford through harvest we'll be good."

[Patler]

Each year, JSO surveys one scout from each NFC North team at the end of the year to rank the players on the other teams to establish an All Star team. Bigby was the unanimous choice for #1 at SS, the first unanimous selection at SS since Butler.

Sorry. I know Leroy Butler. Atari Bigby is no Leroy Butler.

That's kind of my point and my comparison. Happy that the scouts like him. Still don't believe he's all world. Maybe if he does it consistently for a while, but it's been up and down with him.

Again - he's better than anything else we've got. Maybe he's better than anybody else in the NFC North, but plenty in the league better than him. Just a guy right now, maybe on the cusp of being a lot better, but he's getting a little old for that, though he has been out injured, so maybe. Not yet, but maybe.

Who said he was "all world"?
However, if he is the unanimous choice as the best of the NFC North, in my opinion he is more than "just a guy". If he was "just a guy" with the others of the North, I doubt his selection would be unanimous.

I think even a very good team can stand to have Bigby as their SS. Are there better ones than him? Of course there are. I don't think the Packers have the best in the League at any position, although an argument could be made for Woodson this year.

Bigby doesn't hurt this team, and per the coaches seems to be at the top of his game right now.

[SkinBasket]

Bigby has had big issues related to coverage responsibilities. I once used the term that "Bigby couldn't cover with a blanket", and though that has improved, he is still not good in coverage.

I hear people say this a lot, but is it true? Compared to other STRONG safeties, not free safeties, is he bad in coverage? My impression is that he isn't, personally.

I hear people say he can hit a lot, but is that true? I think you can still count his regular season "big hits" on one hand over his career here, and really they weren't any bigger than any other safety teeing off over the middle.

The guy has big hair and a funny name. Take that away and you really don't have much that distinguishes him from any other slow, injury prone, non instinctive safety with stiff hips that any team would be trying to replace at the earliest opportunity.

Well, Bigby tied for 5th among all NFL safeties in INTs this year, and has been awarded a game ball in the last three consecutive weeks, so that might set him apart from SOME other slow, injury prone, non instinctive safeties with stiff hips that any team would be trying to replace at the earliest opportunity.

Also, (no I don't have a link, so feel free to verify) the Packers are something like 26-9 with Bigby in the game, and 4-8 without him.

I'm not terribly swayed by the INTs, as they've mostly come as a result of playing deep and fielding poor throws. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but he's not creating those opportunities so much as he's capitalizing on opportunities afforded him by the front generating pressure. It's nice and all, but really, all he's doing is not dropping passes thrown at or near him. If the team wants to pass out game balls like participation awards for retarded kids, I won't argue about it, but judging from some of the quotes from this past week's JSO article, the team sure seems to blow a lot of sunshine up his butt to keep his confidence up.

I have too much confidence in the quality of this team and the change in defensive scheme and coaching to pin our wins and losses on one player - much less the weakest defensive starter we have.

As others have pointed out, Bigby is the best we have at that position right now, and at times guys like Jarrett Bush make him look downright awesome in comparison - but that certainly doesn't make him anywhere as good as some people want him to be.

[hoosier]

Each year, JSO surveys one scout from each NFC North team at the end of the year to rank the players on the other teams to establish an All Star team. Bigby was the unanimous choice for #1 at SS, the first unanimous selection at SS since Butler.

Where did you see that posted at JSO?

[Scott Campbell]

I think he's playing much better since getting healthy.

[Bossman641]

Each year, JSO surveys one scout from each NFC North team at the end of the year to rank the players on the other teams to establish an All Star team. Bigby was the unanimous choice for #1 at SS, the first unanimous selection at SS since Butler.

Where did you see that posted at JSO?

McGinn did an insider article where he asked personnel from each of the North teams to rank the starters for each position for each team in the division. Bigby got the #1 pick from every scout.

[hoosier]

thanks

[HarveyWallbangers]

Bigby has had big issues related to coverage responsibilities. I once used the term that "Bigby couldn't cover with a blanket", and though that has improved, he is still not good in coverage.

I hear people say this a lot, but is it true? Compared to other STRONG safeties, not free safeties, is he bad in coverage? My impression is that he isn't, personally.

I hear people say he can hit a lot, but is that true? I think you can still count his regular season "big hits" on one hand over his career here, and really they weren't any bigger than any other safety teeing off over the middle.

The guy has big hair and a funny name. Take that away and you really don't have much that distinguishes him from any other slow, injury prone, non instinctive safety with stiff hips that any team would be trying to replace at the earliest opportunity.

I'd disagree with this. Count on one hand? Come on man. Dude brings the wood. Almost every game he lays the wood coming up in run support or blasts a receiver going over the middle. Bigby has had a solid year. Anybody remember him breaking down much in coverage this year? I haven't. That's the #1 thing I look for in a safety. We've also limited big plays--which I think attests to Bigby's ability to get the right calls to people.

[Bossman641]

Bigby has had big issues related to coverage responsibilities. I once used the term that "Bigby couldn't cover with a blanket", and though that has improved, he is still not good in coverage.

I hear people say this a lot, but is it true? Compared to other STRONG safeties, not free safeties, is he bad in coverage? My impression is that he isn't, personally.

I hear people say he can hit a lot, but is that true? I think you can still count his regular season "big hits" on one hand over his career here, and really they weren't any bigger than any other safety teeing off over the middle.

The guy has big hair and a funny name. Take that away and you really don't have much that distinguishes him from any other slow, injury prone, non instinctive safety with stiff hips that any team would be trying to replace at the earliest opportunity.

I'd disagree with this. Count on one hand? Come on man. Dude brings the wood. Almost every game he lays the wood coming up in run support or blasts a receiver going over the middle. Bigby has had a solid year. Anybody remember him breaking down much in coverage this year? I haven't. That's the #1 thing I look for in a safety. We've also limited big plays--which I think attests to Bigby's ability to get the right calls to people.

I agree. I don't think Bigby is all-world or anything, but he has been solid this year. He certainly doesn't flash like Collins does, but I don't think he has the skills or opportunities the way that Collins has.

I don't know if the scheme is covering him, he's playing better, or he's just not being put in terrible positions but he certainly hasn't been exposed the way he was last year. As long as he makes a few hits, picks off a couple balls, and doesn't give up the big play I'm OK with him.

[Patler]

I don't know if the scheme is covering him, he's playing better, or he's just not being put in terrible positions but he certainly hasn't been exposed the way he was last year. As long as he makes a few hits, picks off a couple balls, and doesn't give up the big play I'm OK with him.

I don't think he can be judged on last year. He was healthy for a game and a half. After that, he missed 5 games, was in and out for 5 and then was put on the shelf the remainder of the year. He played very little, and did so injured except for the first game and a half.

[Bretsky]

Never that high on Bigby. Still not high on Bigby. He's played well the last two games. I can't name the other three safeties in our division for him to compete against but since I have no idea who they are it would not surprise me if Bibgy was the top one.

[Bossman641]

I don't know if the scheme is covering him, he's playing better, or he's just not being put in terrible positions but he certainly hasn't been exposed the way he was last year. As long as he makes a few hits, picks off a couple balls, and doesn't give up the big play I'm OK with him.

I don't think he can be judged on last year. He was healthy for a game and a half. After that, he missed 5 games, was in and out for 5 and then was put on the shelf the remainder of the year. He played very little, and did so injured except for the first game and a half.

Oh I totally agree. Last year he looked awful - the Saints game comes to mind. I thought his coverage was better this year than it was in 07 though.

[gbgary]

http://www.fototime.com/08CE19954FED830/standard.jpg

[mission]

I like him and think he'll continue his hot play in the playoffs.

He's not a franchise guy, but close for his position. Might never end up reaching that point but I definitely see a different player the second of this season. Seems health has been a major factor.

[retailguy]

Each year, JSO surveys one scout from each NFC North team at the end of the year to rank the players on the other teams to establish an All Star team. Bigby was the unanimous choice for #1 at SS, the first unanimous selection at SS since Butler.

Sorry. I know Leroy Butler. Atari Bigby is no Leroy Butler.

That's kind of my point and my comparison. Happy that the scouts like him. Still don't believe he's all world. Maybe if he does it consistently for a while, but it's been up and down with him.

Again - he's better than anything else we've got. Maybe he's better than anybody else in the NFC North, but plenty in the league better than him. Just a guy right now, maybe on the cusp of being a lot better, but he's getting a little old for that, though he has been out injured, so maybe. Not yet, but maybe.

The brilliance of your post here, RG, is that you can now take credit for having foreseen the disaster, the ordinariness, or the eventual supremacy of Atari Bigby.

In my home state of Minnesota we tended to talk the same way.

"I don't suppose it'll do any good but I might as well take the Ford up to Mankato and see if they can fix her up. I heard there's a mechanic up there that got Wally Severson another 8 miles to the gallon better out of that F-1 of his so maybe the guy can smooth out the idle and do the same for me but with my luck I'll probably have to junk the old rust bucket. At any rate if we can get the old Ford through harvest we'll be good."

Good luck with the Ford. As to Bigby, not a chance I would ever "take credit" for predicting he's good. I'd be blown away and admitting it. I am not a Bigby fan. Never was a Bigby fan.

Don't expect him to change, was merely pointing out he's had his fair share of injuries. He's been in the league long enough to likely "be as good as he'll get", but I wanted to acknowledge the possibility that since he's been hurt so much, it's still technically possible that he'll improve further.

Again, I don't expect it, and Swede, I PROMISE, I will not attempt to take credit for it if it happens.

[retailguy]

All of you Bigby defenders, go back and read the original post. It was Harrell's goal to start a bunch of crap and it worked.

His point was to "ridicule me" and praise vince as a "visionary". I think vince would be the first guy to tell you he isn't a visionary, he just liked the guy, was excited about what he saw and wanted to share how glad he was that guys like Mike Hawkins, and Mark Roman were gone. That's fair enough. He wanted to throw a bunch of money at the guy in his excitement and I ridiculed him for it. I shouldn't have, and later apologized. I did mean it in fun, and was admittedly poking the bear a bit.

Keep in mind that this entire discussion happened after FOUR GAMES. FOUR GAMES. You guys are defending Bigby based on THIS SEASON. What did he look like after FOUR GAMES? Best in the NFC North? Nope, I don't think so.

I said he was better this season than the others. Still don't like him. You do. GREAT! We disagree. So what?

Justin wanted to "stir up shit", and he did, and got ALL of us. I'm done with this crap. Hope you will be done also. The next time Harrell stirs shit instead of creating good discussion, I'm trying damn hard to not respond. Hope you'll all follow suit.

[SkinBasket]

All I owe him is the common courtesy of knocking his nutsack out your mouth before the constant suction prevents him from ever having children.

[pbmax]

Actually, I think RG has a point. Why does the lead post in this thread talk more about posters than Bigby? That is usually a bad sign.

[Joemailman]

Bigby has had big issues related to coverage responsibilities. I once used the term that "Bigby couldn't cover with a blanket", and though that has improved, he is still not good in coverage.

I hear people say this a lot, but is it true? Compared to other STRONG safeties, not free safeties, is he bad in coverage? My impression is that he isn't, personally.

Then I guess you, vince and Justin can "lock him up". I still won't be signing off on that deal because he isn't worth that kind of contract.

Exactly what kind of contract are we talking about here?

[vince]

Is playing fantastic. Interceptions, big hits, run stuffing, not giving up big plays. . . What more can you ask for from a SS?


Very underrated player. I remember Vince saying he'd love to lock Bigby up, then after he was injured, retailguy just tore him apart with sarcasm and insults. The way Bigby is playing, I'd say Vince deserves some credit for taking the brunt and really not being wrong at all.

I also believe skinbasket owes Bigby an apology :)

Stirring shit up again? If you recall, I disagreed with Vince's point to "lock up Bigby" based on 4 games performance. He was "exclusive rights" at the time and had no choice but to play for whatever GB offered him. It was not the time for an extension then, regardless of how he played. It was a moment of "fan exhuberance" for Vince (that's part of being a fan), and I did chide him heavily on it. He didn't appreciate it, and that's ok. Later, when I realized how offended he was, I did apologize for hurting his feelings. I also think that the remainder of that season exposed flaws in Bigby's game, flaws which remain today.

Bigby has had big issues related to coverage responsibilities. I once used the term that "Bigby couldn't cover with a blanket", and though that has improved, he is still not good in coverage. He can hit like a mack truck, but that's clearly his best trait. He is mediocre at best regarding coverage, and a few interceptions clustered together don't change my mind about his abilities. Should we resign him? Sure. Should we break the bank? No. When someone better comes along, we should draft them and replace him.

Stop stirring the pot. You aren't very good at it. Just enjoy the JSO fluff pieces....I like Bigby as a player. He lacks top-end speed and is shorter than the ideal, but he's a good football player with a good football IQ within the team structure, as evidenced by the play of this defense in his presence and absence. He's returned to form after suffering through a nagging high-ankle sprain last year. He's usully in proper position, has others in proper position, usually takes proper angles (not that he hasn't gotten beat before), rarely drops interception opportunities and brings the lumber with the best of them - and I appreciate that in a strong safety. I think that the intimidation factor when receivers come into the middle of the field is important to have in a defense. I never once said he was all-pro, but he's not a weakness out there.

And my previous statements about signing Bigby to more than a one-year contract stem from the exact OPPOSITE motivation you are (mis)characterizing Retail. By signing him earlier, the Packers would likely end up SAVING money over the term of the contract - assuming you end up being correct in who you sign - versus going a year at a time and then having a 4th-year veteran solid starter ready to hit unrestricted free agency. Bigby was a unique case since he didn't have multi-year rookie contract as a solid 3rd or 4th round draft pick, which is about how he played in '07.

I never advocated for signing him to a "big contract" as you pose here in your strawman arguments above - which is the same strawman argument you made back then. That's what I made note of in my retort to your mischaracterizations then and now. Your perception that my "feelings were hurt" is woefully inaccurate - more strawman.

And I don't read every post or thread here, but I never received any apology for those mischaracterizations, so unless you can cite where you did that (in which I will apologize to you for this), that's another bald-faced lie. But hey, no harm done from my perspective. Just stop misrepresenting others' positions, insulting people's intelligence and lieing to people's faces, and it will all be good.

I still like Bigby - not that he's not replaceable by someone better. But who isn't?

[bobblehead]

Never that high on Bigby. Still not high on Bigby. He's played well the last two games. I can't name the other three safeties in our division for him to compete against but since I have no idea who they are it would not surprise me if Bibgy was the top one.

How many safeties not named reed or polamolu can you name?? (in the entire NFL without using google.)

I'm not sure how much "shit" JH stirred up, I don't mind a spirited debate about bigby and a little I told you so for those who were right. For my part I think Bigby and Grant are/were similar. Difference is that some wanted to lock Grant up for big money, but don't want to pay Bigby. For my taste, when Grant was making a big deal outta contracts I woulda offered Bigby 5 years at $15 million and let Grant sit since he wanted much more than that.

[SkinBasket]

I don't mind a spirited debate about bigby and a little I told you so for those who were right.

Right about what though? Most people are simply pointing to the fact that the defense has played better since he came back from injury without linking the two. See the pirates vs. global temperature graph for just as conclusive of a finding. Our defensive line has improved against the run, and we have two rookie LBs applying pressure on a consistent basis. Bigby is benefiting from that, by being surrounded by talented players playing very well in a solid scheme, not the other way around. I would continue but I already covered this in the other fucking Bigby thread. Because we absolutely need two Bigby threads.

[packerbacker1234]

Our defense is completely different when he's not in there. Thats not a coincidence - he is that impactful on how this defense plays.

He almost has the same impact on our overall defense and Troy polomalu. Say what you want, but pitts D sucks without him, and as we have seen... our defense sucks without Bigby.

He needs to be locked up. He isn't a "stud", but what he is is a difference maker. Smart. Rarely makes mistakes. Does his job. Allows our defense to flourish.

Lock him up. While your at, Collins too.

[Smidgeon]

Our defense is completely different when he's not in there. Thats not a coincidence - he is that impactful on how this defense plays.

He almost has the same impact on our overall defense and Troy polomalu. Say what you want, but pitts D sucks without him, and as we have seen... our defense sucks without Bigby.

He needs to be locked up. He isn't a "stud", but what he is is a difference maker. Smart. Rarely makes mistakes. Does his job. Allows our defense to flourish.

Lock him up. While your at, Collins too.

No, Bigby isn't a difference maker. He simply doesn't make mistakes. Difference makers force the other team to make mistakes. Bigby just hasn't the same deficiencies as those behind him on the depth chart. Spit out the kool-aid.

[Scott Campbell]

He almost has the same impact on our overall defense and Troy polomalu.




http://www.hayabusa.org/forum/attachments/general-bike-related-topics/154396d1250423869-hayabusa-killer-crack_pipe.jpg

[Fritz]

I don't mind a spirited debate about bigby and a little I told you so for those who were right.

Right about what though? Most people are simply pointing to the fact that the defense has played better since he came back from injury without linking the two. See the pirates vs. global temperature graph for just as conclusive of a finding. Our defensive line has improved against the run, and we have two rookie LBs applying pressure on a consistent basis. Bigby is benefiting from that, by being surrounded by talented players playing very well in a solid scheme, not the other way around. I would continue but I already covered this in the other fucking Bigby thread. Because we absolutely need two Bigby threads.

What? Is there some information out there linking pirates to global warming? Damn, I knew it was the pirates.

I like Bigby alright, think he's good enough for this Packer team given the talent around him, but I would like to see the Packers draft a couple of safeties to compete and provide some more athletic backup material than that Giordini (sp?) guy.

[RashanGary]

I think Bigby is an impact guy. He's great in run support (impact on several key downs). He's impact with big hits in the secondary. He's impact with interceptions.

He also doesn't have much negative impact (giving up big plays).

I also think he's a good guy to have in the lockerroom. Good attitude, loves to play. . . He's obviously benefited with the new zone scheme where he can play facing forward, downhill, rather than the match coverage where he was trailing a TE for large chunks of field with little pass rush to boot.



I'd put Bigby, Tramon, Barnett, Chillar, Jolly, Jenkins, Raji, Pickett all an about the same level. These are guys who make big plays just about every game and don't make a lot of mistakes. None are superstars, but all are really good players.

Matthews, Woodson, Collins are on a different level.

Top to bottom, the Packers jsut have talent. #2 defense is no mistake. 11-5 is no fluke. They're legit and Bigby fits right in. Mistake free, interception gathering, big hit laying, run stuffing play from our SS isn't an issue as far as I'm concerned.

[Freak Out]

He's a lover not a fighter.

http://towleroad.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/01/15/bigby.jpg

[SkinBasket]

I don't mind a spirited debate about bigby and a little I told you so for those who were right.

Right about what though? Most people are simply pointing to the fact that the defense has played better since he came back from injury without linking the two. See the pirates vs. global temperature graph for just as conclusive of a finding. Our defensive line has improved against the run, and we have two rookie LBs applying pressure on a consistent basis. Bigby is benefiting from that, by being surrounded by talented players playing very well in a solid scheme, not the other way around. I would continue but I already covered this in the other fucking Bigby thread. Because we absolutely need two Bigby threads.

What? Is there some information out there linking pirates to global warming? Damn, I knew it was the pirates.

I like Bigby alright, think he's good enough for this Packer team given the talent around him, but I would like to see the Packers draft a couple of safeties to compete and provide some more athletic backup material than that Giordini (sp?) guy.

You are so out of touch with the real world...

http://benfry.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/piratesarecool4.gif

Like you say, he's fine given the talent around him. But people polling hima s a pro-bowler are fucking nuts. Adjective, not verb.

[RashanGary]

I think he's a really good player, not a probowler, but honestly, I wouldn't be shocked if he made the probowl either.


We've had plenty of good players that haven't made the probowl. Tauscher, Jenkins, Barnett, and others. . . Just because Bigby isn't a probowler doesn't mean he's not a really good Packer. He obviously has to stay healthy, if not, he turns into a tease and a let down. If he stays healthy, I think he's a really good Packer.

If he were a really good Cowboy, maybe he makes the probowl, but being a really good Packer, probably he just goes under the radar.


Scouts like him a lot more than you do. Coaches and players think a lot more of him than you do too.

Normally skin, you pick out the lowliest of the low Packers and rip them apart. In this case, you picked a good player. I think you're wrong on Bigby.

[Bretsky]

I think Bigby is an impact guy. He's great in run support (impact on several key downs). He's impact with big hits in the secondary. He's impact with interceptions.

I'd put Bigby, Tramon, Barnett, Chillar, Jolly, Jenkins, Raji, Pickett all an about the same level. These are guys who make big plays just about every game and don't make a lot of mistakes. None are superstars, but all are really good players.

Matthews, Woodson, Collins are on a different level.

Top to bottom, the Packers jsut have talent. #2 defense is no mistake. 11-5 is no fluke. They're legit and Bigby fits right in. Mistake free, interception gathering, big hit laying, run stuffing play from our SS isn't an issue as far as I'm concerned.

IMO Bigby is a step down from any of the players youve mentioned above.

[RashanGary]

James Jones and Atari Bigby are two guys I like a lot that others don't really like. That's how it goes sometimes.

[Joemailman]

Bigby and Hawk don't get a lot of love from Packer fans, but I think they're kind of the glue that holds this defense together. You can't have 11 guys running around doing what Woodson and Matthews do. Some guys have to assume more of a support role. Bigby is one of those guys. Remember all the screwups in the secondary when Marquand Manuel was here? You don't see that with Bigby in there. He may some physical limitations, but he does a great job of making sure everyone is on the same page.

[SkinBasket]

I think some people have a very short memory when it comes to Bigby's mistakes and limitations. Again, he looks adequate now because he's benefiting from being surrounded by a top defense and as Joe points out - his role in that defense is one of support. That's great for him, and it's great he's capitalizing on those opportunities he's being afforded by that defense.

And JH, I don't pick the "lowliest" Packers to tear apart. I pick apart those who I feel should be high on the list to be replaced - regardless of how mythically popular they happen to be at the time. I think it's a bit silly and fanboyish to suggest Bigby is the reason for this defense's improvement and/or the team's wins and losses. It completely disregards the new staff, scheme, the incredibly increased effectiveness of the front seven throughout the season and suggests that somehow Bigby's presence in the defense is infinitely more important than Al Harris'.

Also, can someone link me to something that suggests that Bigby has an important role in aligning and adjusting the defense? people seem to be suggesting that's the case, but I don't recall reading that and I don't see it happening in-game.

[Lurker64]

Definitely "Safety" ought to be on our draft wish list. Not that Bigby isn't at least a moderately adequate player when surrounded by talent, but the fact that everybody lower on the depth chart is actually worse than Bigby means that we might want to draft two safeties.

[Joemailman]

http://www.packers.com/news/releases/2010/01/04/3/

(Bigby seems to be making more plays as the season is ending. Are you seeing something different with him?)
Yeah, I think Atari Bigby is playing at a very high level. He's going to receive another game ball this week and I think that is three in a row. He's playing outstanding. He has always been a very good communicator. He has done a very good job of being the last line of defense back there, and now that he has been given some opportunities, he's definitely cashed in on them. I think Atari's confidence is as high as I have seen it. He has battled through a couple of injuries and now he has been able to put a full season together. He has a lot of confidence in this new scheme, and he is playing at a very high level for us.

(Were injuries bugging him earlier in the season?)
Yeah, definitely. He missed a couple of games. I think he had a little bit of almost "here we go again" because he had the back-to-back injuries that happened very early in the season. Yeah, I think that definitely affected him a little bit, but he is such an upbeat personality. He brings a lot to the table as far as the way he fits into the group. They really trust him. He's an excellent communicator. It's just really part of the growth of the whole defense. Nick Collins has put together a Pro Bowl season back there, so I really like our safety play. It has really picked up and it is a big part of our defense. They are the key communicators in our defense, and you're just seeing a defense growing and getting better and better each week.

[Smidgeon]

Bigby and Hawk don't get a lot of love from Packer fans, but I think they're kind of the glue that holds this defense together. You can't have 11 guys running around doing what Woodson and Matthews do. Some guys have to assume more of a support role. Bigby is one of those guys. Remember all the screwups in the secondary when Marquand Manuel was here? You don't see that with Bigby in there. He may some physical limitations, but he does a great job of making sure everyone is on the same page.

+1

[mraynrand]

"Safeties Atari Bigby and Nick Collins also are playing tremendous football"
- ROB REISCHEL

[get louder at lambeau]

Definitely "Safety" ought to be on our draft wish list. Not that Bigby isn't at least a moderately adequate player when surrounded by talent, but the fact that everybody lower on the depth chart is actually worse than Bigby means that we might want to draft two safeties.

Wow. The guy gets three consecutive game balls from the HC, and has 3 INTs in the last two games. Look at the amazing fan reaction players can expect if they come to GB. One more reason NOT to go to GB if you're a FA.

[packrulz]

People forget that Bigby was hurt a lot, when he's healthy, he can lay the wood to opposing players with the best of them. If he's lousy, how did the Packers make the playoffs? Earlier this season, many fans wanted to get rid of Scott Wells too, after Spitz went down, Wells stepped in and did a great job. Another unsung hero.

[Smidgeon]

I changed my mind. The Pack doesn't need to replace Bigby with a draft pick or anything. Don't get me wrong--I think he's the good kind of serviceable. Nothing special though. But the Pack already has his replacement on the roster: Charles Woodson when he loses too much of a step to keep up on the outside. Move him to SS and don't let him miss a beat.

[Administrator]

Definitely "Safety" ought to be on our draft wish list. Not that Bigby isn't at least a moderately adequate player when surrounded by talent, but the fact that everybody lower on the depth chart is actually worse than Bigby means that we might want to draft two safeties.

Wow. The guy gets three consecutive game balls from the HC, and has 3 INTs in the last two games. Look at the amazing fan reaction players can expect if they come to GB. One more reason NOT to go to GB if you're a FA.

Ridiculous. Every football player faces this, it is not unique to GB. You play until someone outplays you, with very few exceptions. It's just the way it is and should have no bearing on players coming here or anywhere.

[mraynrand]

Definitely "Safety" ought to be on our draft wish list. Not that Bigby isn't at least a moderately adequate player when surrounded by talent, but the fact that everybody lower on the depth chart is actually worse than Bigby means that we might want to draft two safeties.

Wow. The guy gets three consecutive game balls from the HC, and has 3 INTs in the last two games. Look at the amazing fan reaction players can expect if they come to GB. One more reason NOT to go to GB if you're a FA.

Ridiculous. Every football player faces this, it is not unique to GB. You play until someone outplays you, with very few exceptions. It's just the way it is and should have no bearing on players coming here or anywhere.

One thing going for Bigby is that he is as cute as a bug's ear.

[get louder at lambeau]

Definitely "Safety" ought to be on our draft wish list. Not that Bigby isn't at least a moderately adequate player when surrounded by talent, but the fact that everybody lower on the depth chart is actually worse than Bigby means that we might want to draft two safeties.

Wow. The guy gets three consecutive game balls from the HC, and has 3 INTs in the last two games. Look at the amazing fan reaction players can expect if they come to GB. One more reason NOT to go to GB if you're a FA.

Ridiculous. Every football player faces this, it is not unique to GB. You play until someone outplays you, with very few exceptions. It's just the way it is and should have no bearing on players coming here or anywhere.

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm talking about retarded and unwarranted negative fan reaction to a player who has been playing well enough to get a game ball for three consecutive weeks. You seem to think I was saying something else completely.

[ThunderDan]

Definitely "Safety" ought to be on our draft wish list. Not that Bigby isn't at least a moderately adequate player when surrounded by talent, but the fact that everybody lower on the depth chart is actually worse than Bigby means that we might want to draft two safeties.

Wow. The guy gets three consecutive game balls from the HC, and has 3 INTs in the last two games. Look at the amazing fan reaction players can expect if they come to GB. One more reason NOT to go to GB if you're a FA.

Ridiculous. Every football player faces this, it is not unique to GB. You play until someone outplays you, with very few exceptions. It's just the way it is and should have no bearing on players coming here or anywhere.

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm talking about retarded and unwarranted negative fan reaction to a player who has been playing well enough to get a game ball for three consecutive weeks. You seem to think I was saying something else completely.

No, what he was saying is that every player on every team has someone that hates them and is vocal about it. Even Emmitt Smith had people who ragged on him. It happens on every team.

[hoosier]

Definitely "Safety" ought to be on our draft wish list. Not that Bigby isn't at least a moderately adequate player when surrounded by talent, but the fact that everybody lower on the depth chart is actually worse than Bigby means that we might want to draft two safeties.

Wow. The guy gets three consecutive game balls from the HC, and has 3 INTs in the last two games. Look at the amazing fan reaction players can expect if they come to GB. One more reason NOT to go to GB if you're a FA.

Ridiculous. Every football player faces this, it is not unique to GB. You play until someone outplays you, with very few exceptions. It's just the way it is and should have no bearing on players coming here or anywhere.

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm talking about retarded and unwarranted negative fan reaction to a player who has been playing well enough to get a game ball for three consecutive weeks. You seem to think I was saying something else completely.

No, what he was saying is that every player on every team has someone that hates them and is vocal about it. Even Emmitt Smith had people who ragged on him. It happens on every team.

You mean before his second "career" with ESPN? :lol:

[SkinBasket]

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm talking about retarded and unwarranted negative fan reaction to a player who has been playing well enough to get a game ball for three consecutive weeks. You seem to think I was saying something else completely.

Does someone keep stats on gameballs now? Because obviously it's the best measure of how talented a player is. Just like being glue. The master of intangibles and unsubstantial correlative results!

If pumping a metric ton of sunshine into Atari's anus each week to keep his confidence up is what it takes to keep him from making mistakes out there, I'm all for it though.

[ThunderDan]

Definitely "Safety" ought to be on our draft wish list. Not that Bigby isn't at least a moderately adequate player when surrounded by talent, but the fact that everybody lower on the depth chart is actually worse than Bigby means that we might want to draft two safeties.

Wow. The guy gets three consecutive game balls from the HC, and has 3 INTs in the last two games. Look at the amazing fan reaction players can expect if they come to GB. One more reason NOT to go to GB if you're a FA.

Ridiculous. Every football player faces this, it is not unique to GB. You play until someone outplays you, with very few exceptions. It's just the way it is and should have no bearing on players coming here or anywhere.

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm talking about retarded and unwarranted negative fan reaction to a player who has been playing well enough to get a game ball for three consecutive weeks. You seem to think I was saying something else completely.

No, what he was saying is that every player on every team has someone that hates them and is vocal about it. Even Emmitt Smith had people who ragged on him. It happens on every team.

You mean before his second "career" with ESPN? :lol:

That would be everybody ragging on him. :lol:

[Administrator]

Ridiculous. Every football player faces this, it is not unique to GB. You play until someone outplays you, with very few exceptions. It's just the way it is and should have no bearing on players coming here or anywhere.

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm talking about retarded and unwarranted negative fan reaction to a player who has been playing well enough to get a game ball for three consecutive weeks. You seem to think I was saying something else completely.


This is what I was talking about. No player should be making decisions from this perspective, and GB has "no unique" fan reaction from any other city. I really don't understand the attitude that you gave me. No reasons for that.


One more reason NOT to go to GB if you're a FA.

[hoosier]

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm talking about retarded and unwarranted negative fan reaction to a player who has been playing well enough to get a game ball for three consecutive weeks. You seem to think I was saying something else completely.

Does someone keep stats on gameballs now? Because obviously it's the best measure of how talented a player is. Just like being glue. The master of intangibles and unsubstantial correlative results!

If pumping a metric ton of sunshine into Atari's anus each week to keep his confidence up is what it takes to keep him from making mistakes out there, I'm all for it though.

At what velocity is that sunshine moving? Because I'm guessing that at its normal speed of C, sunshine has to be pretty near massless. A metric ton would be a LOT of sunshine.

[get louder at lambeau]

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm talking about retarded and unwarranted negative fan reaction to a player who has been playing well enough to get a game ball for three consecutive weeks. You seem to think I was saying something else completely.

Does someone keep stats on gameballs now? Because obviously it's the best measure of how talented a player is. Just like being glue. The master of intangibles and unsubstantial correlative results!

If pumping a metric ton of sunshine into Atari's anus each week to keep his confidence up is what it takes to keep him from making mistakes out there, I'm all for it though.

So, here's a summary of your argument, Skin-

If reporters give him any credit, it's dismissed as a "fluff piece".

When he gets some big hits, they are weren't any bigger than any other safety would have.

Being fifth in the NFL among safeties in INTs is just because the QBs throw balls straight at him and he somehow manages not to drop them once in a while.

When he plays well, it's just because of how great everyone around him is, and it says nothing about him as a player.

If he gets lots of gameballs and praise from the HC, it's just because McCarthy is trying to blow sunshine up his ass to keep him from making mistakes.

Did I miss anything?

[RashanGary]

When he gets the vote of scouts as the best SS in the NFCN, it's because there are 3 other SS's that don't belong in the NFL more than Bigby doesn't belong.

[Smidgeon]

When he gets the vote of scouts as the best SS in the NFCN, it's because there are 3 other SS's that don't belong in the NFL more than Bigby doesn't belong.

Has a rankings been released somewhere?

[get louder at lambeau]

Ridiculous. Every football player faces this, it is not unique to GB. You play until someone outplays you, with very few exceptions. It's just the way it is and should have no bearing on players coming here or anywhere.

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm talking about retarded and unwarranted negative fan reaction to a player who has been playing well enough to get a game ball for three consecutive weeks. You seem to think I was saying something else completely.


This is what I was talking about. No player should be making decisions from this perspective, and GB has "no unique" fan reaction from any other city. I really don't understand the attitude that you gave me. No reasons for that.


One more reason NOT to go to GB if you're a FA.

Me asking you what the fuck you're talking about = attitude, but your post starting with "Rediculous." isn't? K. :tup:

It looked to me like you were arguing something about the depth chart or something. Came off like you totally missed what I was saying-
You play until someone outplays you, with very few exceptions. It's just the way it is and should have no bearing on players coming here or anywhere.

I still wonder what the fuck you were talking about there. Not so much an expression of attitude as confusion, really. "You play until someone outplays you." :?: That's very nice, and very, very obvious. That has what to do with my post about ignorantly negative fan opinion of someone who is playing great football?

Maybe I just took it wrong, out of frustration with Skin discounting every piece of evidence that he's wrong while offering nothing to support his negative opinion of Bigby, except a graph about the minions of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and their affect on Global Warming.

You're right that all teams have some fans who criticize players excessively, but I guess I expect a little more from Packer fans. We are supposed to be "The best fans in the league." and yet there are a lot of them/us who seem to do nothing but offer negative opinions about players and bitch about management, even now, when we're 11-5, playing great, and headed to the playoffs on a hot streak.

Skin's dismissal of Bigby as a weak link who should be replaced while he's playing very, very well is just another little example of a Packer fan offering nothing more than negativity and flawed logic to me. I find ignorant negativity very annoying, and that's what I see here.

Skin- Let's see something, anything, that backs up your point of view. Maybe a stat, or an article that is critical of Bigby. Anything. My guess is you will have trouble finding much.

[RashanGary]

When he gets the vote of scouts as the best SS in the NFCN, it's because there are 3 other SS's that don't belong in the NFL more than Bigby doesn't belong.

Has a rankings been released somewhere?

Bob McGinn did a PI piece where he polled scouts about a week ago.

[Smidgeon]

When he gets the vote of scouts as the best SS in the NFCN, it's because there are 3 other SS's that don't belong in the NFL more than Bigby doesn't belong.

Has a rankings been released somewhere?

Bob McGinn did a PI piece where he polled scouts about a week ago.

Do you have the link? I can't find it (probably because I was in DC and didn't have time to catch up on all the articles on the web).

[RashanGary]

STRONG SAFETY: Atari Bigby* (GB), 9. Others: Tyrell Johnson (Minn), 7; Al Afalava (Chi), 5; Marquand Manuel (Det), 3.

Comments: Bigby was the first unanimous pick at SS since LeRoy Butler in '95. "It was one of his better years," one scout said. Johnson and Afalava didn't fare well as first-year starters. Manuel was over the hill three years ago. "There's a league-wide problem at safety," a scout said.


http://www.jsonline.com/packerinsider/80516717.html

[Smidgeon]

STRONG SAFETY: Atari Bigby* (GB), 9. Others: Tyrell Johnson (Minn), 7; Al Afalava (Chi), 5; Marquand Manuel (Det), 3.

Comments: Bigby was the first unanimous pick at SS since LeRoy Butler in '95. "It was one of his better years," one scout said. Johnson and Afalava didn't fare well as first-year starters. Manuel was over the hill three years ago. "There's a league-wide problem at safety," a scout said.


http://www.jsonline.com/packerinsider/80516717.html

Thanks for the link. That's always one of my favorite articles by McGinn. I know it's a guilty pleasure, but I am, after all, a fan.

[packerbacker1234]

Someone said that scott wells is an unsung hero.


Is he really? He was better at center from day one, the excuse to play spitz was 'the overall line plays better with him over wells'.

That was proven to be false, and wells got screwed out of his starting role. The guy has been as solid as a center can be since taking over a few years back.

So, is he unsung? I don't think so. He was teh best center on the roster before the year started, and the coaching staff decided to screw with it. He is a proven starting caliber center, he's not unsung, he's doing what he has always done.

[ThunderDan]

Someone said that scott wells is an unsung hero.


Is he really? He was better at center from day one, the excuse to play spitz was 'the overall line plays better with him over wells'.

That was proven to be false, and wells got screwed out of his starting role. The guy has been as solid as a center can be since taking over a few years back.

So, is he unsung? I don't think so. He was teh best center on the roster before the year started, and the coaching staff decided to screw with it. He is a proven starting caliber center, he's not unsung, he's doing what he has always done.

I don't know if that is true. Ask Spitz if having Barbre play RT and either a hurt Clifton or rookie Lange play LT hurt the O-Line at the beginning of the year.

[RashanGary]

Spitz goes down for the year
Clifton gets injured
Barbre struggles and is replaced by Tausch
Taush takes time to get 100%
Colledge bounces around positions


The last few weeks things have come together and some chemistry has built. The OL isn't great, but right now they're doing their job well.

[mraynrand]

STRONG SAFETY: Atari Bigby* (GB), 9. Others: Tyrell Johnson (Minn), 7; Al Afalava (Chi), 5; Marquand Manuel (Det), 3.

Comments: Bigby was the first unanimous pick at SS since LeRoy Butler in '95. "It was one of his better years," one scout said. Johnson and Afalava didn't fare well as first-year starters. Manuel was over the hill three years ago. "There's a league-wide problem at safety," a scout said.


http://www.jsonline.com/packerinsider/80516717.html

Thanks for the link. That's always one of my favorite articles by McGinn. I know it's a guilty pleasure, but I am, after all, a fan.


"I don't know how BOB McKinnie made the Pro BOB Bowl," one scout said. "That's a laugher. You know why BOB he got voted in? Because there was BOB nobody else to vote for. I BOB think he's a slob."

oops - can't have a direct quote: BOB added to make it my paraphrase.

[swede]

One of Bob's scouts.

He's pretty excited about Evan Dietrich-Smith.

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dsteenswede44/1584264722_4a16c734d7_o-1.jpg

[SkinBasket]

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm talking about retarded and unwarranted negative fan reaction to a player who has been playing well enough to get a game ball for three consecutive weeks. You seem to think I was saying something else completely.

Does someone keep stats on gameballs now? Because obviously it's the best measure of how talented a player is. Just like being glue. The master of intangibles and unsubstantial correlative results!

If pumping a metric ton of sunshine into Atari's anus each week to keep his confidence up is what it takes to keep him from making mistakes out there, I'm all for it though.

So, here's a summary of your argument, Skin-

If reporters give him any credit, it's dismissed as a "fluff piece".

When he gets some big hits, they are weren't any bigger than any other safety would have.

Being fifth in the NFL among safeties in INTs is just because the QBs throw balls straight at him and he somehow manages not to drop them once in a while.

When he plays well, it's just because of how great everyone around him is, and it says nothing about him as a player.

If he gets lots of gameballs and praise from the HC, it's just because McCarthy is trying to blow sunshine up his ass to keep him from making mistakes.

Did I miss anything?

Those would be some of my arguments. My main point being that calling Bigby a pro-bowl caliber player and pinning our wins and losses on him is ridiculous. I feel it's fairly obvious that Bigby's role has been relegated to playing deep help, and in that role he's benefiting from a great defense in front of him applying pressure, crushing the run at the line, and covering well. Not the other way around, that Bigby brings some magical undefinable quality (oftentimes referred to as "glue," or "positive team effect," or the "Ruvell factor") that makes this entire defense dominant by virtue of him simply being on the field. Several people and articles have claimed he's out there adjusting the defense or calling coverages, and while it's hard to pick up on that when he's oftentimes starting the play off camera, I'll try to pay closer attention this weekend to see if that's true, because to my best recollection, I haven't seen it happening. I'll run down your list quick though.

JSO runs lots of fluff pieces, not just for Bigby. They're easy, feel good scribble. Fans like them because it makes them feel good about the player and the team, especially when things are going well.

As far as the big hits go, Bigby had a few - a couple years ago. This season he's had some solid whacks on guys over the middle, but nothing that makes him stand out from any other safety lining up a big hit on an easy target.

I don't recall any of his INTs requiring any special athleticism or talent other than not dropping the ball. I don't fault him for that - it's what he's supposed to do in that position. I think I remarked that it's nice, but it doesn't make me feel a different player wouldn't have made those plays or that Bigby should be considered a pro bowl talent for catching them. Again, it's a direct benefit of a great defense providing those opportunities. Eugene Robinson used to play the same role years ago. He was slow because he was old. Atari's just slow because he's slow.

I don't know if Bigby is playing any better or any worse than he has in the past when healthy. He's made a couple ankle tackles that I think he's missed in the past, so I would say that's improved. Of course he's making those diving tackles because he's not quick to adjust when the ball carrier changes direction.

The amount of praise he's been getting seems excessive and not all of it seems based on reality. They talk a lot about his confidence. About how they trust him. All of his "responsibilities." They give him footballs and pat him on the back. It smells a little like the slightly retarded kid in high school who finally hits or catches the ball after several dozen tries and everyone gives him accolades and he smiles real big and feels important and tries harder. I'm sure others have different interpretations of it, but that's how it strikes me.

Bottom line: Bigby is one of, if not the most, limited players on this defense. I see his recent success as a direct result of a vastly improved defense, scheme, and coaching staff. His role has been limited, and to appease his ego and retain his confidence, he is praised excessively about his trustworthiness, his responsibilities, and given game balls.

If you want to argue that Atari is so important to this defense as to be almost single-handedly responsible for it's vast improvements, then you would also have to argue that Al Harris conversely was of little to no importance, given the lack of defensive drop off since he was injured. Correlating wins and loses to one player of Bigby's abilities playing or not is absurd.

I understand we can't have all pros at all 11 positions on defense, so I'm fine with having Bigby there for now. I just don't happen to believe he is magically responsible for the improvement on defense, much less the wins and losses of the team, or that he's anywhere near being pro bowl quality.

[Zool]

I guess I'd say he's playing how a starter should play. He's not making any exceptional plays but he's not a giant gaping hole in the middle like the other scrubs we've had recently. Compared with Rouse, Manuel et al, he seems like an all-pro.

[mraynrand]

Rouse was absolutely brutal down the stretch for the Giants. Good thing they fired the Giants' D coordinator to improve his skills. At least we know that strategy worked in GB.

[RashanGary]

Balls: The defensive backs minus Atari Bigby, who managed to completely destroy any confidence I had built in him that he will ever be anything other than a slow plodding dope with dreads with a reputation much larger than the reality.


I'm sorry, but I cannot get excited about any defense that starts Bigby. Doesn't matter how fat or potentially talented the line is if there's always going to an open TE or slot running free across or down the field.


These are the types of comments about Bigby that I was talking about when I started this thread.

Saying he's not a superstar, I don't think that deserves an apology at all. That's not what you tend to say about Bigby though. Patrick Dendy and Noah Herron were good, smart targets by you. Bigby, I think you're dead wrong on, couldn't be more wrong.



As far as what he's done for this defense, we don't have anyone else who can play safety. He's an impact player and has probowl ability IMO, but even if he wasn't, even if he was just average, he still has a major impact on this team because we have junk after him.

Admit it, Bigby means a lot to this team right now. Admit Bigby is not a bad player right now.

[mraynrand]

Bigby seen through Skinbasket's eyes:

http://img5.allocine.fr/acmedia/medias/nmedia/18/64/98/47/18816427.jpg

Bigby seen through many Packer fans' eyes:

http://students.ou.edu/G/David.M.Gehris-1/brian%20dawkins.jpg

[Smidgeon]

I guess I'd say he's playing how a starter should play. He's not making any exceptional plays but he's not a giant gaping hole in the middle like the other scrubs we've had recently. Compared with Rouse, Manuel et al, he seems like an all-pro.

+1 Bingo!

[Joemailman]

Definitely "Safety" ought to be on our draft wish list. Not that Bigby isn't at least a moderately adequate player when surrounded by talent, but the fact that everybody lower on the depth chart is actually worse than Bigby means that we might want to draft two safeties.

Wow. The guy gets three consecutive game balls from the HC, and has 3 INTs in the last two games. Look at the amazing fan reaction players can expect if they come to GB. One more reason NOT to go to GB if you're a FA.

If this were a factor, Philadelphia would never sign a free agent.

[RashanGary]

I don't agree that Bigby makes no impact plays. He makes big hits, still does. Bigger than Collins and Collins is a big hitter too. He gets interceptions. He stops the run.


He doesn't give up big plays and he makes big plays. As far as I'm concerned, when Bigby is healthy, I think he's as good as Collins but I trust Collins to stay healthy and be reliable so I'd much rather have Collins.

[Smidgeon]

I don't agree that Bigby makes no impact plays. He makes big hits, still does. Bigger than Collins and Collins is a big hitter too. He gets interceptions. He stops the run.


He doesn't give up big plays and he makes big plays. As far as I'm concerned, when Bigby is healthy, I think he's as good as Collins but I trust Collins to stay healthy and be reliable so I'd much rather have Collins.

I would say that he doesn't give up big plays, but I'd stop there. Collins is far superior. Bigby doesn't create. He doesn't have coaches salivating over what he can do. Collins creates (though not frequently, he does it more than Bigby), and he has coaches and analysts salivating on his range and athleticism. Except for the last quarter of 2007, nobody's been that high on Bigby (except for you ;) ). He'd definitely solid, but eventually I'd like to see a couple young draft picks with upside come in for competition.

[SkinBasket]

Admit it, Bigby means a lot to this team right now. Admit Bigby is not a bad player right now.

I would appreciate if you dated quotes you're going to pull from the past. Then I would know the context of when I was making those comments. Regardless, those comments still stand and you prove my point: that some people will always see him for what they want him to be instead of what he is. When the defense isn't playing well enough to cover his limitations, he gets exposed. When they're playing well, they can compensate and even allow him to play in a limited fashion that plays to what ability he does have.

No one's arguing that he isn't the best option we have right now. I'm saying he's no where near as talented as some people want him to be. He is not a pro bowler and he is not the reason this team wins or loses.

[KYPack]

Admit it, Bigby means a lot to this team right now. Admit Bigby is not a bad player right now.

I would appreciate if you dated quotes you're going to pull from the past. Then I would know the context of when I was making those comments. Regardless, those comments still stand and you prove my point: that some people will always see him for what they want him to be instead of what he is. When the defense isn't playing well enough to cover his limitations, he gets exposed. When they're playing well, they can compensate and even allow him to play in a limited fashion that plays to what ability he does have.

No one's arguing that he isn't the best option we have right now. I'm saying he's no where near as talented as some people want him to be. He is not a pro bowler and he is not the reason this team wins or loses.

Well, I think you two boys got the whole matter pretty well hashed out.

Skin's comment above reminds of Nixon's old quote about JFK.

"People look at Kennedy and see what they want to be.
They look at me and see what they are".

[vince]

When the defense isn't playing well enough to cover his limitations, he gets exposed. When they're playing well, they can compensate and even allow him to play in a limited fashion that plays to what ability he does have.
We're obviously not going to see Bigby pressing the line of scrimmage manning up wideouts much. He'd be abused quickly. But that doesn't make him weak at doing what is needed (even making a positive impact) in order to make the defense successful as a whole.

Offenses spend all week looking for ways to isolate weaknesses and expose them when they see them. Teams could easily keep extra blockers in to create more time for the QB and flood zones to create one-on-ones for Bigby and abuse him if he was truly as incompetent as you've characterized him back there. In addition to the team helping him as you've pointed out, his ability - and reliability - helps Capers and the playmakers be more aggressive and add to their success. And when backs and receivers cross his path, he has the mindset and leg strength to clean their clock.

I'm a bit surprised that he hasn't been asked to play closer to the line of scrimmage and blitz a bit more, because I think he's strong when on the attack, but Woodson has unique skills and has excelled in his role moving all over the place and being the primary db blitzer - so Bigby rightfully takes on the deep safety role.

I don't think anyone would be crying if a guy like Berry or Mays came along with better skills and took over his spot in the starting lineup, but neither may be there when the Packers pick. And Mays even has a lot of questions about him these days. I'm sure some could throw out a couple more names, but I don't think you can go much deeper than a handful of guys in the draft that could unseed Bigby - particularly with his experience and the trust and chemistry he's built with his coaches and teammates.

If someone does unseed him, then you'll probably have a hard time keeping him around, since he's not currently locked up. I'd love to have Bigby's skills and experience be the first backup rather than whoever it is now, because injuries are a fact of life and we lack depth at the position. Say what you want about the guy, there are a lot of teams in addition to the Packers he could start for tomorrow. We've all seen the reject safeties come through Green Bay that are still floating around the league.

That's not hoping Bigby's something he's not. That's reality as I see it.

[RashanGary]

Bigby is finally healthy. He's acclimated to the defense. He's playing great. If you were to ask me who is going to have more big plays this post season, I'd say Bigby over Collins.

Collins does have more over the last couple years becuase he's supremely durable and Bigby seems to always be injured. When healthy though, I see Bigby making more big plays than Collins and considering Bigby is healthy right now, I'd expect that trend to continue.

Don't get me wrong, I think Collins is the better player to resign. He's great in coverage, has great range, is always healthy, gets interceptions and big hits. He's complete. Bigby is strictly a downhill zone guy who can't be asked to match fast TE's in coverage or 3rd WR's. But we don't ask for that out of our SS. We ask him to play downhill in a zone. We ask him to come forward to get picks or make big hits. He's put in an ideal position to succeed right now.

[Bretsky]

Spitz goes down for the year
Clifton gets injured
Barbre struggles and is replaced by Tausch
Taush takes time to get 100%
Colledge bounces around positions


The last few weeks things have come together and some chemistry has built. The OL isn't great, but right now they're doing their job well.


DITTO and Great Point; the turnaround of this OL was the biggest factor in turning our season around.

I don't care what anybody thinks about youth; bringing back and keeping Tausch is invaluable. Even as a reliable backup. Dude is outstanding for chemistry and steps up his game when called upon.

[Lurker64]

Wow. The guy gets three consecutive game balls from the HC, and has 3 INTs in the last two games. Look at the amazing fan reaction players can expect if they come to GB. One more reason NOT to go to GB if you're a FA.

Okay, keep in mind that in the 3-4 defense we run the Strong Safety is ideally a big time playmaker position (c.f. Polamalu, Troy and Reed, Ed). Collins is a very good free safety, but our strong safety is not a big time difference maker, and our depth at S is basically nonexistent, so I think we should go get a few in hopes we land a big time player or alternatively just get some quality depth in there. Derrick Martin and Matt Giordano do not fill me with confidence, and Bigby is far from one of the best players on our defense.

[pbmax]

Wow. The guy gets three consecutive game balls from the HC, and has 3 INTs in the last two games. Look at the amazing fan reaction players can expect if they come to GB. One more reason NOT to go to GB if you're a FA.

Okay, keep in mind that in the 3-4 defense we run the Strong Safety is ideally a big time playmaker position (c.f. Polamalu, Troy and Reed, Ed). Collins is a very good free safety, but our strong safety is not a big time difference maker, and our depth at S is basically nonexistent, so I think we should go get a few in hopes we land a big time player or alternatively just get some quality depth in there. Derrick Martin and Matt Giordano do not fill me with confidence, and Bigby is far from one of the best players on our defense.
Except that I think you have Polamalu's position confused with Bigby's. Ryan Clark patrols the deep middle for Pittsburgh and is usually back while Polamalu moves around like Collins. KYPack sees more of Pittsburgh than I do, so maybe he can shed some light on this as well.

The Ravens run a different style of D and play less zone than the Steelers or Capers normally do/does. So to find the Ed Reed position of our defense is tougher. Reed is listed as the Free Safety there, so he may be deeper on average than Landry, so that comparison might be fairer. But I am having a hard time envisioning Jim Leonhard playing close to the line SS, which is what he would have been doing last year if Reed played deep. I will say this, for the number of INTs he collects, I wouldn't be surprised if he is deep a lot.

Bigby is deep not because they are hiding him, its because Collins is better and with his skills in this defense dictate he needs to move around like Polamalu. Polamalu and Collins are rarely matched up one on one. Most safeties aren't. The Packers are an aberration here in that both Butler and to a lesser extent Sharper could be used this way. Bigby's role is much more like Eugene Robinson, who was no burner himself. But knowledge and anticipation got him to the deep throws more often than not. That is Bigby's primary job and the one he must be able to maintain.

The one concern I have about Bigby besides health is speed. Even back deep, I have seen too many receivers behind him and the CB. Not every game, but enough to worry. If his recognition is picking up in the D as people are saying, then he might be able to compensate for the lack of a top end gear. Its working for him lately on routes in front of him.

And as a point of emphasis about the deep safety, Paul Krause was elected to the HOF for playing that "centerfielder" position and catching the fly balls that the Purple People Eaters forced. There is something to be said for being in the right place and catching the ball.

[vince]

Woodson has also moved into that role as the roving/blitzing safety in the box on numerous occasions.

Bigby's biggest limitation is that when you bring him up into the box ala Paolamalu, he can provide strong run support and can blitz, but due to his size and speed, he would be a liability covering most TE's in today's game and most slot receivers and backs in the open field. While the Packer play mostly zone these days, there's no denying the fact that guys run into, through and along the edges of those zones that have to be covered. A lack of height in particular can be exposed in the short zones against big TE's. Bigby's listed at 5' 11". which is bad enough, but of he's 5'10" I'll eat my shorts. He may be 5'11" with his helmet on.

So if the Packers brought him up more regularly in pass and run/pass situations, it'd be too easy for teams to check from a plays that play to his strengths into plays that isolates his weakness. You obviously can't blitz him every time in those situations because he'd be too easy to account for.

The fact that Capers moves Collins and Woodson - two of the absolute best in the leage - around in this defense to make plays more than Bigby is evidence that he isn't as versatile in coverage as those guys (few are), but it doesn't say any more than that. In fact, Bigby's better in the box than both of those guys stuffing the run, and he is the guy who usually comes up in high-percentage running situations.

Also, in passing situations and where run/pass tendencies are more equal, Capers has shown that he calls a much more vanilla game when he doesn't have strong backend support, so it's Bigby's ability that enables Capers to disguise things more and be as aggressive with Collins and Woodson to maximize their abilities in those situations.

It was after the Cincy game when Rouse was cut for being exposed back there, and @ Minny was not one of Wood's many stellar games this year. Those are both games that Bigby missed. It was after the Minn. game where Woodson lashed out at Capers in frustration for not allowing him to be more aggressive. The reality was that Favre tore the Packers up when they were aggressive because our safeties in particular didn't get the job done.

So Woodson wouldn't have the numbers he has if he wasn't so good, but he also can thank the fact that - with Bigby - the team doesn't have a weakness (with the notable possible exception of nickel/dime situations now that Harris is out) which would keep Capers from putting Woodson in position to shine. And even in nickel/dime, it's Bigby and Collins in deep support who help cover that up (thus far for the most part - keeping fingers crossed).

Sure he's upgradeable, but it'd take one of the special talents to do it. Bigby's a guy I'd like to see around. If he's a backup, all the better, but you want him on the team.

[Gunakor]

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm talking about retarded and unwarranted negative fan reaction to a player who has been playing well enough to get a game ball for three consecutive weeks. You seem to think I was saying something else completely.

Does someone keep stats on gameballs now? Because obviously it's the best measure of how talented a player is. Just like being glue. The master of intangibles and unsubstantial correlative results!

If pumping a metric ton of sunshine into Atari's anus each week to keep his confidence up is what it takes to keep him from making mistakes out there, I'm all for it though.

So, here's a summary of your argument, Skin-

If reporters give him any credit, it's dismissed as a "fluff piece".

When he gets some big hits, they are weren't any bigger than any other safety would have.

Being fifth in the NFL among safeties in INTs is just because the QBs throw balls straight at him and he somehow manages not to drop them once in a while.

When he plays well, it's just because of how great everyone around him is, and it says nothing about him as a player.

If he gets lots of gameballs and praise from the HC, it's just because McCarthy is trying to blow sunshine up his ass to keep him from making mistakes.

Did I miss anything?

Those would be some of my arguments. My main point being that calling Bigby a pro-bowl caliber player and pinning our wins and losses on him is ridiculous. I feel it's fairly obvious that Bigby's role has been relegated to playing deep help, and in that role he's benefiting from a great defense in front of him applying pressure, crushing the run at the line, and covering well. Not the other way around, that Bigby brings some magical undefinable quality (oftentimes referred to as "glue," or "positive team effect," or the "Ruvell factor") that makes this entire defense dominant by virtue of him simply being on the field. Several people and articles have claimed he's out there adjusting the defense or calling coverages, and while it's hard to pick up on that when he's oftentimes starting the play off camera, I'll try to pay closer attention this weekend to see if that's true, because to my best recollection, I haven't seen it happening. I'll run down your list quick though.

JSO runs lots of fluff pieces, not just for Bigby. They're easy, feel good scribble. Fans like them because it makes them feel good about the player and the team, especially when things are going well.

As far as the big hits go, Bigby had a few - a couple years ago. This season he's had some solid whacks on guys over the middle, but nothing that makes him stand out from any other safety lining up a big hit on an easy target.

I don't recall any of his INTs requiring any special athleticism or talent other than not dropping the ball. I don't fault him for that - it's what he's supposed to do in that position. I think I remarked that it's nice, but it doesn't make me feel a different player wouldn't have made those plays or that Bigby should be considered a pro bowl talent for catching them. Again, it's a direct benefit of a great defense providing those opportunities. Eugene Robinson used to play the same role years ago. He was slow because he was old. Atari's just slow because he's slow.

I don't know if Bigby is playing any better or any worse than he has in the past when healthy. He's made a couple ankle tackles that I think he's missed in the past, so I would say that's improved. Of course he's making those diving tackles because he's not quick to adjust when the ball carrier changes direction.

The amount of praise he's been getting seems excessive and not all of it seems based on reality. They talk a lot about his confidence. About how they trust him. All of his "responsibilities." They give him footballs and pat him on the back. It smells a little like the slightly retarded kid in high school who finally hits or catches the ball after several dozen tries and everyone gives him accolades and he smiles real big and feels important and tries harder. I'm sure others have different interpretations of it, but that's how it strikes me.

Bottom line: Bigby is one of, if not the most, limited players on this defense. I see his recent success as a direct result of a vastly improved defense, scheme, and coaching staff. His role has been limited, and to appease his ego and retain his confidence, he is praised excessively about his trustworthiness, his responsibilities, and given game balls.

If you want to argue that Atari is so important to this defense as to be almost single-handedly responsible for it's vast improvements, then you would also have to argue that Al Harris conversely was of little to no importance, given the lack of defensive drop off since he was injured. Correlating wins and loses to one player of Bigby's abilities playing or not is absurd.

I understand we can't have all pros at all 11 positions on defense, so I'm fine with having Bigby there for now. I just don't happen to believe he is magically responsible for the improvement on defense, much less the wins and losses of the team, or that he's anywhere near being pro bowl quality.

You say Bigby is merely a product of the system he plays in, and a beneficiary of the other talented players on that defense. Yet he gets the job done. How he gets the job done and why he's able to get the job done is irrelevant. THAT he gets the job done is the only relevant matter. Certainly we can agree on that much, can't we?

Facts are facts. Bigby is doing his part in this defense and playing very well. The team is winning with Bigby on the field, much moreso than they were without him on the field.

I would absolutely agree that Bigby is more important to this defense than Al Harris, for two reasons. One, the dropoff from Bigby to whoever they'd plug in behind him (Giordono, Martin, whoever) is far greater than from Harris to Williams. Two, the safeties are the last line of defense, making that position more important than cornerback IMO.

The transformation of this defense from good to elite occured when Bigby got healthy. Look at the defensive performances from games this season when Bigby was out with injury. Then look at the performances after he returned. Not just Bigby's performances, but the defense as a whole. How were the OTHER players on that defense used before and after Bigby's return. Compare. Then try to convince me that Bigby isn't key to the evolution of this defense. I call BS.

[Fritz]

Bigby seen through Skinbasket's eyes:

http://img5.allocine.fr/acmedia/medias/nmedia/18/64/98/47/18816427.jpg

Bigby seen through many Packer fans' eyes:

http://students.ou.edu/G/David.M.Gehris-1/brian%20dawkins.jpg

In that first picture, which one is Bigby? The chick?

[KYPack]

Troy Polamalu is the Steelers Strong Safety. Ryan Clark plays the Free Safety spot. Polamalu is really a hybrid. He is a joker or wild card guy. LeBeau has a unique design for Troy bc of his unique talent. Troy moves around based on down and distance. 1st down finds him in the box. 2nd down behind the LB's and 3rd down, deeper but the up guy in the secondary.

Getting a pre-snap read on Polamalu is absolutely worthless. Last year, I saw him make a play I'm still trying to believe. Troy was on the right side of the defense on 3rd and 6. He was just outside the tackle on the weakside, showing blitz technique. The play was a quick out, just past the sticks. Housh ran a good route and Palmer put it right there. The pass was broken up by the DB. The DB was Polamalu. I didn't notice live how he got over there and had to watch the tape. At the snap, Polamalu had both feet on the LOS on the right. But he instantly broke and ran his ass off diagonally across the field to the other sideline. He arrived just in time to bat down the pass, making a great play that a corner usually makes. I watched that play probably 5 times & I still don't know how he did it, bc it wasn't humanly possible.

I've also seen him turn long gainers into 2 yard losses on screens. They guy goes beyond reads. He's freakin' clairvoyant.

Pitt has a big problem. Lebeau has designed his defense around Polamalu's unique talents. By utilizing his considerable skills, the Steelers are one effective group. With Troy out and a normal human at SS, they are a pretty ordinary bunch.

[SkinBasket]

You say Bigby is merely a product of the system he plays in, and a beneficiary of the other talented players on that defense. Yet he gets the job done. How he gets the job done and why he's able to get the job done is irrelevant. THAT he gets the job done is the only relevant matter. Certainly we can agree on that much, can't we?

I've already stated several times that I'm fine with him there for now. He's being limited to a role where his deficiencies are minimized. Unfortunately that means he can't play near the LOS and spends a lot of time by himself deep. Fortunately he hasn't dropped his opportunities and has only prevented a teammate from making a play once to my recollection. Improvement.


Facts are facts. Bigby is doing his part in this defense and playing very well. The team is winning with Bigby on the field, much moreso than they were without him on the field.

You right, facts is facts:
http://benfry.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/piratesarecool4.gif



I would absolutely agree that Bigby is more important to this defense than Al Harris, for two reasons. One, the dropoff from Bigby to whoever they'd plug in behind him (Giordono, Martin, whoever) is far greater than from Harris to Williams. Two, the safeties are the last line of defense, making that position more important than cornerback IMO.

Being more important, relative to his position, than Al Harris, even if true, does not make him pro bowl quality. Not that I agree that Bigby is a bigger or more important part of this defense than one of the top CBs in the league.


The transformation of this defense from good to elite occured when Bigby got healthy. Look at the defensive performances from games this season when Bigby was out with injury. Then look at the performances after he returned. Not just Bigby's performances, but the defense as a whole. How were the OTHER players on that defense used before and after Bigby's return. Compare. Then try to convince me that Bigby isn't key to the evolution of this defense. I call BS.

And I thought claiming Bigby is more important than Al Harris was silly. You want to disregard the efforts of our entire defense, collectively and individually, and assign responsibility for a top ranked defense to Atari Bigby? So it's Atari and not the D Linemen stop the run at the line? Atari is responsible for Clay Matthews pass rushing? Atari Bigby is responsible for the 3-4 transformation and positional coaching? Do Nick Collins' 6 INTs actually belong to Bigby? Atari Bigby should accept Woodson's accolades for everything he does on the field? Bigby is responsible for 59's development and picked up the slack when Kampman and Harris went down?

I find it much easier to believe that Bigby's return to health coincides with all of those things, not explains them - a combination of which provides a much more sane explanation for a defense playing well than the mystical contributions of the defense's weakest player. You want to revel in putting the cart before the horse because it makes it more fun and easier to root for an underdog player. That's great, but it doesn't make him any better of an athlete or grant him any magical powers.

Or does it?
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/02nm5Kfcrw98l/340x.jpg
LEGENDARY ATARI BIGBY OF DEFENSIVE COHESION +3!!!

[Gunakor]

You say Bigby is merely a product of the system he plays in, and a beneficiary of the other talented players on that defense. Yet he gets the job done. How he gets the job done and why he's able to get the job done is irrelevant. THAT he gets the job done is the only relevant matter. Certainly we can agree on that much, can't we?

I've already stated several times that I'm fine with him there for now. He's being limited to a role where his deficiencies are minimized. Unfortunately that means he can't play near the LOS and spends a lot of time by himself deep. Fortunately he hasn't dropped his opportunities and has only prevented a teammate from making a play once to my recollection. Improvement.

That's our defense. Whether or not he can play at or near the LOS is fairly irrelevant to our situation here. He's not needed at the LOS - we're #1 rush defense with no need to drop Bigby into the box. Why does it matter whether he can play at the LOS if the SS in our defense is playing deep?


I would absolutely agree that Bigby is more important to this defense than Al Harris, for two reasons. One, the dropoff from Bigby to whoever they'd plug in behind him (Giordono, Martin, whoever) is far greater than from Harris to Williams. Two, the safeties are the last line of defense, making that position more important than cornerback IMO.

Being more important, relative to his position, than Al Harris, even if true, does not make him pro bowl quality. Not that I agree that Bigby is a bigger or more important part of this defense than one of the top CBs in the league.

There you go again with the incessant need for a Pro Bowl quality player at SS. Who cares?


The transformation of this defense from good to elite occured when Bigby got healthy. Look at the defensive performances from games this season when Bigby was out with injury. Then look at the performances after he returned. Not just Bigby's performances, but the defense as a whole. How were the OTHER players on that defense used before and after Bigby's return. Compare. Then try to convince me that Bigby isn't key to the evolution of this defense. I call BS.

And I thought claiming Bigby is more important than Al Harris was silly. You want to disregard the efforts of our entire defense, collectively and individually, and assign responsibility for a top ranked defense to Atari Bigby? So it's Atari and not the D Linemen stop the run at the line? Atari is responsible for Clay Matthews pass rushing? Atari Bigby is responsible for the 3-4 transformation and positional coaching? Do Nick Collins' 6 INTs actually belong to Bigby? Atari Bigby should accept Woodson's accolades for everything he does on the field? Bigby is responsible for 59's development and picked up the slack when Kampman and Harris went down?


I find it much easier to believe that Bigby's return to health coincides with all of those things, not explains them - a combination of which provides a much more sane explanation for a defense playing well than the mystical contributions of the defense's weakest player. You want to revel in putting the cart before the horse because it makes it more fun and easier to root for an underdog player. That's great, but it doesn't make him any better of an athlete or grant him any magical powers.


I find it just as silly that you would disregard the effort Bigby has given in the evolution of our entire defense. Atari isn't the one making stops at the LOS. Atari is the reliable deep safety that allows other players to make plays at the LOS. You didn't see as many plays at the LOS early in the season when LB's were lining up 5+ yards off the line and dropping into coverage. That all changed when a guy Capers could trust got healthy, allowing him to use his linebackers more at the line. Boom. Top ranked rush defense. Al Harris did not have that type of an impact on the defense as a whole, and IMO was not more important to the defense than Bigby is. Ah, notice how the defense was sub par while Bigby was out yet remained one of the leagues elite after losing Harris. Again, which player is more key?

You wanted an explaination of how Bigby was key to the evolution of this defense and not just a beneficiary of it, there it is. His play is directly related to the production of everybody else, and the defense as a whole is better for it.

[Gunakor]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

[mraynrand]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

How many tackles did he have on RBs following his return?

[pbmax]

Troy Polamalu is the Steelers Strong Safety. Ryan Clark plays the Free Safety spot. Polamalu is really a hybrid. He is a joker or wild card guy. LeBeau has a unique design for Troy bc of his unique talent. Troy moves around based on down and distance. 1st down finds him in the box. 2nd down behind the LB's and 3rd down, deeper but the up guy in the secondary.

Getting a pre-snap read on Polamalu is absolutely worthless. Last year, I saw him make a play I'm still trying to believe. Troy was on the right side of the defense on 3rd and 6. He was just outside the tackle on the weakside, showing blitz technique. The play was a quick out, just past the sticks. Housh ran a good route and Palmer put it right there. The pass was broken up by the DB. The DB was Polamalu. I didn't notice live how he got over there and had to watch the tape. At the snap, Polamalu had both feet on the LOS on the right. But he instantly broke and ran his ass off diagonally across the field to the other sideline. He arrived just in time to bat down the pass, making a great play that a corner usually makes. I watched that play probably 5 times & I still don't know how he did it, bc it wasn't humanly possible.

I've also seen him turn long gainers into 2 yard losses on screens. They guy goes beyond reads. He's freakin' clairvoyant.

Pitt has a big problem. Lebeau has designed his defense around Polamalu's unique talents. By utilizing his considerable skills, the Steelers are one effective group. With Troy out and a normal human at SS, they are a pretty ordinary bunch.
Phenomenal. Was Housh in a slot position or wide?

This kind of thing happens in basketball, where a player will rebound or block or defend a shot and then outlet the ball while under the basket. There is a fast break and a basket, and if you are lucky to get a good play by play or a replay, you discover the guy scoring on the break is the guy who was furthest away from break when it started. Bobby Jones on the Sixers used to do this all the time.

I recently saw a highlight of it happening again in the NBA, but don't remember the player.

I think Skin has a basic point about the shortcomings of Bigby's athleticism. I have seen it on some (not a lot) throws deep where I would hope to see him closer. He seems smart enough that recognition may get him there more often as he becomes more confident in his reads. Clearly he has gotten better as the year goes along on the stuff in front of him.

But he is clearly light years ahead of the backups right now. Which may be part of the reason why his record as a starter looks so good. And he has the skills to man his role well. Is he replaceable? Yes, but not yet by anyone on the roster. The second safety on this team (esp. with Collins if he signs a big extension eventually) is not going to be a five tool player unless we hit it big on a draft pick. There simply isn't the money in the budget to pay big time money to a second top caliber safety. But the role in this scheme is such that someone like Bigby can play it good enough to win.

[SkinBasket]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

If I had photoshop installed on this computer we would have a nice portrait of Atari Jesus in this thread already.

[pbmax]

Bigby seen through Skinbasket's eyes:

http://img5.allocine.fr/acmedia/medias/nmedia/18/64/98/47/18816427.jpg

Bigby seen through many Packer fans' eyes:

http://students.ou.edu/G/David.M.Gehris-1/brian%20dawkins.jpg

In that first picture, which one is Bigby? The chick?
If so, Bigby is unconventionally attractive. For a safety.

[get louder at lambeau]

Bigby seen through Skinbasket's eyes:

http://img5.allocine.fr/acmedia/medias/nmedia/18/64/98/47/18816427.jpg

In that first picture, which one is Bigby? The chick?

I'm not sure if Bigby is supposed to be the girl or the guy on the right, but SkinBasket is obviously the happy looking guy on the left with his eyes closed.

[SkinBasket]

There you go again with the incessant need for a Pro Bowl quality player at SS. Who cares?

No. That's the claim between the two Bigby threads by the believers that I've been arguing against. That a) he's pro-bowl quality or anywhere near it and b) that he is such an important player that his awesomeness, which apparently can only be measured in fly-ball interceptions, gameballs, and the W-L record of the entire team, overwhelms the performance, improvement, coaching, and scheme of the entire defense on an individual and a team level.

I'm not saying we need a pro bowl SS. I'm saying Bigby isn't one. Nor is he the reason we win or lose, although he has been the reason ofr the later in the past. He's simply an adequate player on a great and steadily improving defense. Improving because they're learning the scheme, rookies are gaining experience, and the defense as a whole is playing with confidence and aggressiveness. Not because Bigby happens to be standing 20 yards off the LOS.

[pbmax]

I find it just as silly that you would disregard the effort Bigby has given in the evolution of our entire defense. Atari isn't the one making stops at the LOS. Atari is the reliable deep safety that allows other players to make plays at the LOS. You didn't see as many plays at the LOS early in the season when LB's were lining up 5+ yards off the line and dropping into coverage. That all changed when a guy Capers could trust got healthy, allowing him to use his linebackers more at the line. Boom. Top ranked rush defense. Al Harris did not have that type of an impact on the defense as a whole, and IMO was not more important to the defense than Bigby is. Ah, notice how the defense was sub par while Bigby was out yet remained one of the leagues elite after losing Harris. Again, which player is more key?

Gun, if I have pulled this quote out and it wasn't yours let me know, I will fix it. That was a long confusing batch of quotes and bolding.

I think you have a point about the time Bigby missed, but its not all in his favor. Bigby missed 3 games (CIN, STL, MIN). In two of those, teams ran more than Capers would like to yield. He adjusted and Favre had a field day throwing with plenty of time.

But when Bigby returned, Capers did not go immediately back to blitzing. There were the wins versus Cleve and Detroit but also the Favre-a-Polooza at Lambeau, where they went for 38 points. Then the Tampa fiasco. Finally versus Dallas they rose up, blitzed and still stopped the run. But it took until the 5th game of his return to perform like that.

Also during his return, they got lit up by Pittsburgh. So its not all candy and nuts for Atari. Harris missing does cost them in coverage. Bigby is necessary for the Packer defense to perform at a high level, but its a even mix of his skill and the shortcomings of his backups that makes it so.

[get louder at lambeau]

I'm not saying we need a pro bowl SS. I'm saying Bigby isn't one. Nor is he the reason we win or lose, although he has been the reason ofr the later in the past. He's simply an adequate player on a great and steadily improving defense.

If that's what you're saying, at least you're starting to see the light compared to what you were saying a few days ago-


The guy has big hair and a funny name. Take that away and you really don't have much that distinguishes him from any other slow, injury prone, non instinctive safety with stiff hips that any team would be trying to replace at the earliest opportunity.

I'd count "adequate player" as a major upgrade of your opinion over that first indictment.

[SkinBasket]

I'm not saying we need a pro bowl SS. I'm saying Bigby isn't one. Nor is he the reason we win or lose, although he has been the reason ofr the later in the past. He's simply an adequate player on a great and steadily improving defense.

If that's what you're saying, at least you're starting to see the light compared to what you were saying a few days ago-


The guy has big hair and a funny name. Take that away and you really don't have much that distinguishes him from any other slow, injury prone, non instinctive safety with stiff hips that any team would be trying to replace at the earliest opportunity.

I'd count "adequate player" as a major upgrade of your opinion over that first indictment.

Well lets not start shaving each other's balls just yet.

I should have said, he's adequate in this defense because this defense has a lot of talent on it, is playing very well, and has a good coaching staff. As the team has picked up the new scheme, which most prognosticators put at a season to a season and a half to learn, they've become more and more impressive.

On a less impressive defense, I think you see the Atari Bigby of the past. One that gets exploited on a regular basis and is the weakest link on the defense.

Our revolving door at safety over the years has demonstrated that the position isn't an easy one to fill, which, as I've said several times now, is why I'm fine with him there - for now. You'll have to forgive me for believing a better football player would improve the position. I hope we can find one this off season. Given our recent history, my hopes aren't as high as a Rastafarian in summertime.

[mraynrand]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

If I had photoshop installed on this computer we would have a nice portrait of Atari Jesus in this thread already.

You're just baiting me, aren't you?

[mraynrand]

Lord Bigby! Saviour of the Defense!

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/LordBigby.jpg

[RashanGary]

Something about Bigby, just that look <shudders>. . . Bigby

[retailguy]

Something about Bigby, just that look <shudders>. . . Bigby

But he's your "homey".

[SkinBasket]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

If I had photoshop installed on this computer we would have a nice portrait of Atari Jesus in this thread already.

You're just baiting me, aren't you?

Thanks. I would have had to walk all the way into the basement, get the cd, come all the way back upstairs and install it. Maybe another day. And nice work. I was going to go with the crown of thorns look, but your version creates much more of a dramatic backdrop to the story at hand.

[HarveyWallbangers]

No. That's the claim between the two Bigby threads by the believers that I've been arguing against. That a) he's pro-bowl quality or anywhere near it

Which person said he was close to Pro Bowl quality? I think even the ones that like him think he's an adequate starter--somebody you can win with.

[RashanGary]

Skins pretty much twisted it from his stance of Bigby being horrible to him simply not being a probowler.


Clever but transparent and void of intellectual honestly.



For the record though, I think Bigby is a big play guy. Interceptions, forced fumbles, big hits. . . . He has some weaknesses in coverage, but in this zone scheme where he plays mostly downhill rather than chasing, I think his strengths are really showcased and his weaknesses really covered. He's a good fit for this team and with Collins being the rangy prototypical FS, I think Bigby is an excellent fit for this team.

As far as him being a probowler, he's not there now, hasn't played consistently enough, but with hsi big plays and how he's played recently, I woudln't be shocked at all if he put together 16 games similar to the last 4 and made it. I think Bigby is more likely to make a probowl than be out of the NFL next year.

[Gunakor]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

If I had photoshop installed on this computer we would have a nice portrait of Atari Jesus in this thread already.

Were you going to answer my question?

[Gunakor]

I find it just as silly that you would disregard the effort Bigby has given in the evolution of our entire defense. Atari isn't the one making stops at the LOS. Atari is the reliable deep safety that allows other players to make plays at the LOS. You didn't see as many plays at the LOS early in the season when LB's were lining up 5+ yards off the line and dropping into coverage. That all changed when a guy Capers could trust got healthy, allowing him to use his linebackers more at the line. Boom. Top ranked rush defense. Al Harris did not have that type of an impact on the defense as a whole, and IMO was not more important to the defense than Bigby is. Ah, notice how the defense was sub par while Bigby was out yet remained one of the leagues elite after losing Harris. Again, which player is more key?

Gun, if I have pulled this quote out and it wasn't yours let me know, I will fix it. That was a long confusing batch of quotes and bolding.

I think you have a point about the time Bigby missed, but its not all in his favor. Bigby missed 3 games (CIN, STL, MIN). In two of those, teams ran more than Capers would like to yield. He adjusted and Favre had a field day throwing with plenty of time.

But when Bigby returned, Capers did not go immediately back to blitzing. There were the wins versus Cleve and Detroit but also the Favre-a-Polooza at Lambeau, where they went for 38 points. Then the Tampa fiasco. Finally versus Dallas they rose up, blitzed and still stopped the run. But it took until the 5th game of his return to perform like that.

Also during his return, they got lit up by Pittsburgh. So its not all candy and nuts for Atari. Harris missing does cost them in coverage. Bigby is necessary for the Packer defense to perform at a high level, but its a even mix of his skill and the shortcomings of his backups that makes it so.

When Bigby returned, Capers started using his linebackers. Whether that was blitzing or simply playing at the line, the linebackers were used more aggressively after Bigby's return than while he was injured. The linebackers weren't lining up 5+ yards off the LOS and dropping back into coverage every play anymore. They started playing the run first, something they hadn't done the first month or so of the season. I think it's quite a leap to say that Bigby's return had nothing to do with that, that it was simply the natural evolution of a defense learning a new system. And my example, again, is the number of linebackers playing the pass vs. the run while Bigby was out.

I'm not trying to imply that Bigby is all world or anything like that. I'm not even trying to imply that Bigby himself is the playmaker on this defense. What I'm implying is that, the way I see it, Bigby allows Capers the freedom to better utilize the other players on that defense. That Bigby isn't just productive because of the defense, but that the defense is more productive because of Bigby. The performance of the defense from when Bigby was out to when he returned and got healthy is night and day. Bigby is a key part of this defense, a defense ranked #2 in the NFL, not simply a product of it. That's the point I'm trying to make.

I hope all 11 starters on defense over the final month or so of this season return as starters for the Packers next year. All 11 of them.

[Gunakor]

I should have said, he's adequate in this defense because this defense has a lot of talent on it...

This defense is the only one I'm at all concerned about. You're right, this defense has a lot of talent on it. I guess it doesn't matter whether Bigby brings out the talent surrounding him or the talent surrounding him is the reason for his own success. It works, and that's the bottom line. No need to change what works. Certainly another guy would be able to do what Bigby does, but Bigby can do what Bigby does just fine. Since Bigby isn't being asked to do more than what he's doing, and this defense is playing at an extremely high level with Bigby doing only what he's asked to do, why would you assume that we need a new SS that can do more than that? I just don't see the need to change anything that works, and exactly what we have right now is working both for Bigby individually and for this defense as a whole with Bigby. So I guess the next logical question is, why do you want to see a change in the way we play defense next year that would require a new SS who can do things Bigby can't?

[mraynrand]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

How many tackles did he have on RBs following his return?

Were you going to answer my question?

[Administrator]

give it up Skinbasket. Obviously Bigby is just short of God, and clearly a probowl talent. You're fighting a losing battle. Can't you see? :P

[RashanGary]

give it up Skinbasket. Obviously Bigby is just short of God, and clearly a probowl talent. You're fighting a losing battle. Can't you see? :P

Very mature. Just come out and say who you are.

[Administrator]

give it up Skinbasket. Obviously Bigby is just short of God, and clearly a probowl talent. You're fighting a losing battle. Can't you see? :P

Very mature. Just come out and say who you are.

mature? what? I'm amazed at the spirited defense of the guy. I don't get it,

I'm still Joe. Always been Joe, always shall be Joe. You'll have to thank my mother for that one.

[RashanGary]

give it up Skinbasket. Obviously Bigby is just short of God, and clearly a probowl talent. You're fighting a losing battle. Can't you see? :P

Very mature. Just come out and say who you are.

mature? what? I'm amazed at the spirited defense of the guy. I don't get it,

I'm still Joe. Always been Joe, always shall be Joe. You'll have to thank my mother for that one.

Yeah, you're a coward.

[KYPack]

OK, everybody brace yourself.

Justin's gonna melt down again.

[Administrator]

OK, everybody brace yourself.

Justin's gonna melt down again.

if he does, it'll be the last time. and he'll take madtown with him too. (maybe, :D )

[Joemailman]

OK, everybody brace yourself.

Justin's gonna melt down again.

http://blog.jkbutcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/exploding-head-1.jpg

[Gunakor]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

How many tackles did he have on RBs following his return?

Were you going to answer my question?

I already have. Try following along. I said Bigby's return allowed Capers the freedom to use his LB's more agressively. In layman's terms, AJ Hawk and Nick Barnett have made more plays on RB's at the LOS as a result of Bigby's return because they don't have to play pass and react to run anymore. Now they can play run and react to pass, which has led to a #1 ranked rush defense in the NFL. Derrick Martin didn't allow them to do that. To answer your question specifically, the answer is zero. Bigby personally did not make those tackles. But as I've explained above, he played a part in those tackles without being the one to actually make them.

For crying out loud, I'm talking about the impact Bigby has on the defense as a whole. Not about how great he is individually. Stop looking at it that way. He plays a support role. That's the role the SS is asked to play in this defense. We don't need a playmaker there. I know, other guys could do it too - but as long as we have Bigby doing it already why the need for a change? There may be better playmaking SS out there, but you won't find many better at the support role Bigby is asked to play. Our SS does not play at the LOS in run support.

The only reason we'd need a SS who can do more than the one we already have is if we were to change the way we play defense. Change the assignments for our SS. Change the role he would play. Why do that? We're #2 in the NFL. Ride the horse till it bucks you. No need to change anything on our defense. Not a goddamn thing.

[Gunakor]

give it up Skinbasket. Obviously Bigby is just short of God, and clearly a probowl talent. You're fighting a losing battle. Can't you see? :P

It's not about Bigby. It's about the defense that features Bigby. It's about how all 11 players are used now vs. how they were used while Derrick Martin was starting at SS. It's about how much better this defense is with Bigby than without him. Bigby will probably never make a pro bowl. Neither will anybody else who plays SS in our defense under Capers. Pro Bowls are for playmakers. Not for role players. Not for the guys whose job it is to make it easier for the real playmakers to shine. But saying that takes nothing away from the importance of a guy like Bigby to our defense or the impact his return had on our defense.

But go ahead, pretend that the remarkable improvement of our defense that coincides with Bigby's return had nothing to do with Bigby at all.

[RashanGary]

Congrats to skinbasket. He's somehow managed to change the conversation from him saying Bigby was a slow, plodding turd that doesn't belong on the Packers to Bigby just not being a probowler.

Don't bite.

[SkinBasket]

No. That's the claim between the two Bigby threads by the believers that I've been arguing against. That a) he's pro-bowl quality or anywhere near it

Which person said he was close to Pro Bowl quality? I think even the ones that like him think he's an adequate starter--somebody you can win with.

This comes from the other Bigby thread. The poll.

[SkinBasket]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

If I had photoshop installed on this computer we would have a nice portrait of Atari Jesus in this thread already.

Were you going to answer my question?

Why would I? So you can pull up some other random statistic and attribute it to Atari's mighty powers? Your stance is ridiculous. If you want to credit Atari Bigby with the transformation of this defense over the other 10 players, the change in scheme, and the coaching, I can't help you.

[SkinBasket]

Congrats to skinbasket. He's somehow managed to change the conversation from him saying Bigby was a slow, plodding turd that doesn't belong on the Packers to Bigby just not being a probowler.

Don't bite.

Bite what? You started this stupid thread. I've just voiced my opinion about a crappy player who been allowed to flourish and attain the level of marginally adequate with a top ranked defense surrounding him.

Like I said. I get it. He's fun to root for if you suspend reality a little. Good for you guys. Just don't expect everyone to join in your delusions about his abilities just because you believe he's the magical key to our defense instead of a guy who's role has been minimized to roaming deep.

I think all my feelings that I could ever possibly have about the guy have been voiced between the dozen pages of these last two threads, so if you have any more questions about how I feel about him, just read up on those.

[RashanGary]

Like I said. I get it. He's fun to root for if you suspend reality a little. Good for you guys. Just don't expect everyone to join in your delusions about his abilities just because you believe he's the magical key to our defense instead of a guy who's role has been minimized to roaming deep.



You're putting words in peoples mouths.

I've, personally, never made that argument, but I believe what everyone is saying is that we don't have a safety that understands and plays well enough in our scheme to run a lot of the mixed coverages Capers likes to run. Early in the season we were having issues with Vanilla defense and Capers said it had a lot to do with our guys not moving on to the mixed coverages until they're ready.

After Bigby came back, the coaches and players talked Bigby bringing a steadiness that allowed them to open up their playbook. After that, the defense started to take off.


As far as why the defense took off, nobody ever claimed it was because he was a superstar. The claim was that he's the only SS we have that can handle the defense we run right now, bringing us from predictable to a multiple coverage team.


Yet you keep putting words in peoples mouths. Face it Skin, you were wrong. Bigby's at least a solid player.

[Scott Campbell]

Good thread!

[mraynrand]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

How many tackles did he have on RBs following his return?

Were you going to answer my question?

I already have. Try following along. I said Bigby's return allowed Capers the freedom to use his LB's more agressively. In layman's terms, AJ Hawk and Nick Barnett have made more plays on RB's at the LOS as a result of Bigby's return because they don't have to play pass and react to run anymore. Now they can play run and react to pass, which has led to a #1 ranked rush defense in the NFL. Derrick Martin didn't allow them to do that. To answer your question specifically, the answer is zero. Bigby personally did not make those tackles. But as I've explained above, he played a part in those tackles without being the one to actually make them.

For crying out loud, I'm talking about the impact Bigby has on the defense as a whole. Not about how great he is individually. Stop looking at it that way. He plays a support role. That's the role the SS is asked to play in this defense. We don't need a playmaker there. I know, other guys could do it too - but as long as we have Bigby doing it already why the need for a change? There may be better playmaking SS out there, but you won't find many better at the support role Bigby is asked to play. Our SS does not play at the LOS in run support.

The only reason we'd need a SS who can do more than the one we already have is if we were to change the way we play defense. Change the assignments for our SS. Change the role he would play. Why do that? We're #2 in the NFL. Ride the horse till it bucks you. No need to change anything on our defense. Not a goddamn thing.

Are you really saying Bigby's return freed up the LBs from pass coverage responsibilities?

[mission]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

How many tackles did he have on RBs following his return?

Were you going to answer my question?

I already have. Try following along. I said Bigby's return allowed Capers the freedom to use his LB's more agressively. In layman's terms, AJ Hawk and Nick Barnett have made more plays on RB's at the LOS as a result of Bigby's return because they don't have to play pass and react to run anymore. Now they can play run and react to pass, which has led to a #1 ranked rush defense in the NFL. Derrick Martin didn't allow them to do that. To answer your question specifically, the answer is zero. Bigby personally did not make those tackles. But as I've explained above, he played a part in those tackles without being the one to actually make them.

For crying out loud, I'm talking about the impact Bigby has on the defense as a whole. Not about how great he is individually. Stop looking at it that way. He plays a support role. That's the role the SS is asked to play in this defense. We don't need a playmaker there. I know, other guys could do it too - but as long as we have Bigby doing it already why the need for a change? There may be better playmaking SS out there, but you won't find many better at the support role Bigby is asked to play. Our SS does not play at the LOS in run support.

The only reason we'd need a SS who can do more than the one we already have is if we were to change the way we play defense. Change the assignments for our SS. Change the role he would play. Why do that? We're #2 in the NFL. Ride the horse till it bucks you. No need to change anything on our defense. Not a goddamn thing.

Are you really saying Bigby's return freed up the LBs from pass coverage responsibilities?

It certainly changes how we have to approach defending the middle of the field.

[3irty1]

I once thought Bigby was the Derrik Turnbow of the Packers. But instead of a shaggy-haired closer who lights up the gun and has a crazy leg whip its a strong safety with a goofy name and dreads that makes big hits. They are both fan favorites for the above reasons even though their performance was more lucky than good.

This season though Bigby has made me a believer. He'll probably never be a pro bowler (although Turnbow was an all-star so who knows) but he's a solid starter who's not a real liability in any aspect of the game. Either that or he's still just really lucky in which case I'd argue that I'd rather be lucky than good.

[mraynrand]

Have the Packers even allowed a 100 yard rusher since Bigby's return? I know they allowed at least 2 in the short time he was out. I'd say that's more than coincidence.

How many tackles did he have on RBs following his return?

Were you going to answer my question?

I already have. Try following along. I said Bigby's return allowed Capers the freedom to use his LB's more agressively. In layman's terms, AJ Hawk and Nick Barnett have made more plays on RB's at the LOS as a result of Bigby's return because they don't have to play pass and react to run anymore. Now they can play run and react to pass, which has led to a #1 ranked rush defense in the NFL. Derrick Martin didn't allow them to do that. To answer your question specifically, the answer is zero. Bigby personally did not make those tackles. But as I've explained above, he played a part in those tackles without being the one to actually make them.

For crying out loud, I'm talking about the impact Bigby has on the defense as a whole. Not about how great he is individually. Stop looking at it that way. He plays a support role. That's the role the SS is asked to play in this defense. We don't need a playmaker there. I know, other guys could do it too - but as long as we have Bigby doing it already why the need for a change? There may be better playmaking SS out there, but you won't find many better at the support role Bigby is asked to play. Our SS does not play at the LOS in run support.

The only reason we'd need a SS who can do more than the one we already have is if we were to change the way we play defense. Change the assignments for our SS. Change the role he would play. Why do that? We're #2 in the NFL. Ride the horse till it bucks you. No need to change anything on our defense. Not a goddamn thing.

Are you really saying Bigby's return freed up the LBs from pass coverage responsibilities?

It certainly changes how we have to approach defending the middle of the field.

But did it, actually? With Chillar's injury, it's hard to say that Bigby reduced the need for 'Big Oakie,' for example. Plus, I don't have any stats on how much Bigby freed LBs to be more aggressive and not be in coverage as much. I think that would be extremely hard to measure. I'll be happy to take the defensive coaches' word for it. I'll be looking around for what they say. If you see articles or quotes that pertain, post 'em. It's interesting since in football, like Gun suggests, a guy can have an influence without seeming to make any plays or "Big Hits" himself.

[ThunderDan]

I don't agree that Bigby makes no impact plays. He makes big hits, still does. Bigger than Collins and Collins is a big hitter too. He gets interceptions. He stops the run.


He doesn't give up big plays and he makes big plays. As far as I'm concerned, when Bigby is healthy, I think he's as good as Collins but I trust Collins to stay healthy and be reliable so I'd much rather have Collins.

Isn't this what you said??? You are comparing Bigby to our 2 time ProBowl Safety Mr. Collins!! So that would make Bigby a ProBowler??

[SkinBasket]

Face it Skin, you were wrong. Bigby's at least a solid player.

You're certainly free to feel that way. I don't understand your annoyingly unsubstantiated insistence that everyone else agree with you, however.

[RashanGary]

I don't agree that Bigby makes no impact plays. He makes big hits, still does. Bigger than Collins and Collins is a big hitter too. He gets interceptions. He stops the run.


He doesn't give up big plays and he makes big plays. As far as I'm concerned, when Bigby is healthy, I think he's as good as Collins but I trust Collins to stay healthy and be reliable so I'd much rather have Collins.

Isn't this what you said??? You are comparing Bigby to our 2 time ProBowl Safety Mr. Collins!! So that would make Bigby a ProBowler??


Nothing I said was false. Down the stretch in 2007 and then down the stretch this year, Bigby was getting more picks, making more big hits and not giving up any big plays.

Bigby isn't a probowler, doesn't deserve to be, but if he puts together 16 games similar to the healthy stretches he's had in 2007 and this year, he will be a probowler,

Collins has done it so well, so consistently for so long. He certainly is a probowler, but when Bigby is healthy he's a big play guy. Made them at a higher rate than Collins during those stretches, but that's not really an opinion. It's a fact. Bigby's problem is that he's been hurt.

[RashanGary]

Face it Skin, you were wrong. Bigby's at least a solid player.

You're certainly free to feel that way. I don't understand your annoyingly unsubstantiated insistence that everyone else agree with you, however.


That's fine. Disregard what the coaches and players say. Disregard what the non biased scouts say. Disregard the stats. Disregard the top tier defense with Bigby in it. You have your mind made up, why would anyone expect you to change it in light of an abundance of new evidence?

[Scott Campbell]

Collins has done it so well, so consistently for so long. He certainly is a probowler,.......

That ain't how I remember it.

Two summers ago we were all hell bent on replacing the inconsistent underachieving Nick Collins with up and coming Aaron Rouse. His Pro Bowl level of play is a relatively recent achievement.

[Scott Campbell]

Face it Skin, you were wrong. Bigby's at least a solid player.

You're certainly free to feel that way. I don't understand your annoyingly unsubstantiated insistence that everyone else agree with you, however.


That's fine. Disregard what the coaches and players say. Disregard what the non biased scouts say. Disregard the stats. Disregard the top tier defense with Bigby in it. You have your mind made up, why would anyone expect you to change it in light of an abundance of new evidence?


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

[SkinBasket]

Face it Skin, you were wrong. Bigby's at least a solid player.

You're certainly free to feel that way. I don't understand your annoyingly unsubstantiated insistence that everyone else agree with you, however.


That's fine. Disregard what the coaches and players say. Disregard what the non biased scouts say. Disregard the stats. Disregard the top tier defense with Bigby in it. You have your mind made up, why would anyone expect you to change it in light of an abundance of new evidence?

What stats? His irreplaceable 49 tackles? His 4 game changing shag ball INTs that came in games we won a combined 107-17? What stats exactly am I disregarding?

What "new evidence" was this? Did you research some of Atari's sperm and find an awesomeness gene that somehow links Atari Bigby to team wins and the improvement of a defense in a new scheme?

The only person disregarding the "top tier defense" is those who claim Bigby is the reason it exists. And the only people who've made up their minds on Bigby are those who have been waiting a year and a half for him to do anything not unproductive so they can get all excited again and tell everyone else how smart they were for never failing in their fanboy adoration of the Great Atari Bigby.

[RashanGary]

Haha. Oh well, we'll see how it all pans out. Hopefully I'm right about Atari.


Just that name though, how can you not like Atari Bigby. And that's before you get into the hair. Sheesh.

[3irty1]

I don't agree that Bigby makes no impact plays. He makes big hits, still does. Bigger than Collins and Collins is a big hitter too. He gets interceptions. He stops the run.


He doesn't give up big plays and he makes big plays. As far as I'm concerned, when Bigby is healthy, I think he's as good as Collins but I trust Collins to stay healthy and be reliable so I'd much rather have Collins.

Isn't this what you said??? You are comparing Bigby to our 2 time ProBowl Safety Mr. Collins!! So that would make Bigby a ProBowler??


Nothing I said was false. Down the stretch in 2007 and then down the stretch this year, Bigby was getting more picks, making more big hits and not giving up any big plays.

Bigby isn't a probowler, doesn't deserve to be, but if he puts together 16 games similar to the healthy stretches he's had in 2007 and this year, he will be a probowler,

Collins has done it so well, so consistently for so long. He certainly is a probowler, but when Bigby is healthy he's a big play guy. Made them at a higher rate than Collins during those stretches, but that's not really an opinion. It's a fact. Bigby's problem is that he's been hurt.

If he did this he'd be defensive player of the year. Was he not NFC defensive player of the month in December of 2007?

[SkinBasket]

....

[MJZiggy]

....

Yeah yeah yeah, I know, I KNOW!!! :x

[SkinBasket]

....

Yeah yeah yeah, I know, I KNOW!!! :x

Just sayin'. :lol:

We have some issues. They need to be fixed.

[Bretsky]

....


Bad day to be a fan of nearly anybody on defense. They all played poorly. Bush and Bigby were often victimized....not sure they were that much more than anybody else though

[SkinBasket]

....


Bad day to be a fan of nearly anybody on defense. They all played poorly. Bush and Bigby were often victimized....not sure they were that much more than anybody else though

The middle of the field might as well of had a "vacancy" sign erected in it. At least it might have deflected a pass or two.

The entire defense was busy trying to cover that gaping, suck-ass hole all night and couldn't. If there's any consolation for Bigby fans, at least Giordano wasn't any better... Although we did tie the game with him playing SS, so he must be a catalyst of some sort by the same logic we've seen this week.

[esoxx]

erected suck-ass hole

Take it to the Garbage Can

[SkinBasket]

[erected suck-ass hole

Take it to the Garbage Can

You love it.

[esoxx]

[erected suck-ass hole

Take it to the Garbage Can

You love it.

:oops:

[ThunderDan]

....


Bad day to be a fan of nearly anybody on defense. They all played poorly. Bush and Bigby were often victimized....not sure they were that much more than anybody else though

The middle of the field might as well of had a "vacancy" sign erected in it. At least it might have deflected a pass or two.
The entire defense was busy trying to cover that gaping, suck-ass hole all night and couldn't. If there's any consolation for Bigby fans, at least Giordano wasn't any better... Although we did tie the game with him playing SS, so he must be a catalyst of some sort by the same logic we've seen this week.

That made me laugh!!!

[SkinBasket]

That made me laugh!!!

Ironically, that's all we can do right now. Laugh sad, sobbing laughs and wonder what happened to the magical Atari Bigby.

Although we should note, once again, that our only defensive stop of the night, outside of the turnover, came when Bigby left the field.

[retailguy]

That made me laugh!!!

Ironically, that's all we can do right now. Laugh sad, sobbing laughs and wonder what happened to the magical Atari Bigby.

Although we should note, once again, that our only defensive stop of the night, outside of the turnover, came when Bigby left the field.

:worship:

[mraynrand]

I hope someone starts a new Bigby thread. This one is getting stale.

[SkinBasket]

I hope someone starts a new Bigby thread. This one is getting stale.

Last night was a sobering experience. Give them time to cope.

[RashanGary]

I think yesterdays performance was about more than Atari Bigby. Williams, Collins, Bush and Bell weren't exactly making plays and the pass rush wasn't exactly sifling.

Time will tell. Your arguement was made stronger yesterday, maybe you're right. I still like Bigby though, think more evidence points to him being good than horrible.

[get louder at lambeau]

....


Bad day to be a fan of nearly anybody on defense. They all played poorly. Bush and Bigby were often victimized....not sure they were that much more than anybody else though

I think you mean they all played poorly except Clay Matthews.

I agree that the whole D had a rough day, but Bush and Bigby were often victimized? Not really. They didn't play well, but the highlight tape shows Woodson getting victimized more than anyone else. Check the Kurt Warner highlight tape at nfl.com, linked below. Woodson got scored on twice, and maybe three times. Not Bush. Not Bigby. Woodson.

The two TDs that he fell down after contact with Fitz are on him and no one else, unless you want to blame the refs, and the first AZ passing TD Woodson was standing there not covering anyone in particular as Doucet runs free. I can't tell if that's on him, Collins or maybe Bigby, but Bigby was the only safety deep, so he has to stay deeper than the deepest, right? If so, it's between Wood and Collins. Collins is keying on the RB in motion since before the snap, and he follows him out wide. Woodson doesn't cover anybody, and jogs towards the middle as the ball is caught. That's a total of 21 points in those three plays that look like they are on Woodson to me.

The last one I mentioned is at the 20 second mark of the video below. I can't really say for sure it's on Chuck, but it sure looks like it's on either Collins or him. My first thought is Collins, but how he's shadowing the RB makes me think it's not. Even if Chuck's not to blame for the last one, he is for the other two TDs, 14 points.

I don't think Bush gave up a TD. Bigby either. Why are they the ones being talked about and not Chuck? Is it like how it was always the receivers' fault if Faver threw an INT? Is Woodson above criticism?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815a55b7/Wild-Card-Kurt-Warner-highlights

[Smidgeon]

....


Bad day to be a fan of nearly anybody on defense. They all played poorly. Bush and Bigby were often victimized....not sure they were that much more than anybody else though

I think you mean they all played poorly except Clay Matthews.

I agree that the whole D had a rough day, but Bush and Bigby were often victimized? Not really. They didn't play well, but the highlight tape shows Woodson getting victimized more than anyone else. Check the Kurt Warner highlight tape at nfl.com, linked below. Woodson got scored on twice, and maybe three times. Not Bush. Not Bigby. Woodson.

The two TDs that he fell down after contact with Fitz are on him and no one else, unless you want to blame the refs, and the first AZ passing TD Woodson was standing there not covering anyone in particular as Doucet runs free. I can't tell if that's on him, Collins or maybe Bigby, but Bigby was the only safety deep, so he has to stay deeper than the deepest, right? If so, it's between Wood and Collins. Collins is keying on the RB in motion since before the snap, and he follows him out wide. Woodson doesn't cover anybody, and jogs towards the middle as the ball is caught. That's a total of 21 points in those three plays that look like they are on Woodson to me.

The last one I mentioned is at the 20 second mark of the video below. I can't really say for sure it's on Chuck, but it sure looks like it's on either Collins or him. My first thought is Collins, but how he's shadowing the RB makes me think it's not. Even if Chuck's not to blame for the last one, he is for the other two TDs, 14 points.

I don't think Bush gave up a TD. Bigby either. Why are they the ones being talked about and not Chuck? Is it like how it was always the receivers' fault if Faver threw an INT? Is Woodson above criticism?

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815a55b7/Wild-Card-Kurt-Warner-highlights

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?p=497254#497254

[get louder at lambeau]

Thanks Smidgeon. I'll take my ball over there.

[Smidgeon]

Thanks Smidgeon. I'll take my ball over there.

Thought I'd help out. ;)

[SkinBasket]

I don't think Bush gave up a TD. Bigby either. Why are they the ones being talked about and not Chuck? Is it like how it was always the receivers' fault if Faver threw an INT? Is Woodson above criticism?

Maybe it's because Woodson is one of the best CBs in the league, Williams has held his own - covering just as well as Harris did, and wasn't too bad against AZ outside of tackling like a pansy, Collins is going to the Pro Bowl again, and Bush and Bigby suck. Bush covered the wrong receiver multiple times, allowing his guy to run uncovered, and couldn't cover whoever he did end up on. Bigby might as well have not been on the field. We can't use him near the line, and he was too dumb and slow to offer any help deep or close on any of the big plays and just make a tackle - which is kind of what you would hope your deep safety would do.