Fire Capers

[wist43]

As you all know, I have long been an advocate of the 3-4 and hailed the transition triumphantly...

Capers is a dilemma though, b/c he is an good coach, an experienced coach, and the kind of coach you want on staff to implement a scheme change.

On the flip side of that is the concern that he is not a great game-day coach, game planner, or play caller.

Everyone on here will tout our high defensive ranking... but that is not an accurate measure of what this defense is. Without doing any research - how many of our games came against abysmal offenses??? Detroit twice, Cleveland, SF, TB, STL, SEA - Chicago when they weren't going well...

That's half our games against very, very sub standard offenses...

That said, they did show glimpses, and Capers did occassionally show some aggression... however, therein lies my probelem with Capers - his nature, and his track record.

His overall nature is timidity and a reluctance to make adjustments. If his initial game plan is crap... the game is crap. It's as if he can't see it... "why isn't this working??? it worked on paper last week in the film room???" lol...

Capers is a good coach... but unless he has a HC that is willing to over rule him, i.e. he will go down with the ship that brung him... I have serious resevations as to whether we can win anything with him at the defensive helm.

He is one of those guys that can maybe get you close, but never get you over the top (last year in Pitt the exception - however, I have a strong feeling that has more to do with Mike Tomlin than Dom Capers)... it was my primary concern when we hired him - and now, after giving up 51 pts in a playoff game???

Well, that's just inexcusable... but more than that - if I'm Arizona, I'm wondering, "how did we not score 80???"

For Arizona, to have even had to punt once, against that defensive game plan??? That's embarrassing...

As I said, I don't blame even the 1st player... the players never had a chance b/c Capers never gave them a chance. Terrible game plan, terrible play calling, no adjustments... that is the Capers I have always known - a leopard doesn't change his spots.

That was a bad game plan, bad execution, and bad play calling... all of that is on Capers. TT has to pull the trigger, and send Capers packing.

[retailguy]

you don't fire on one bad game.... he was successful overall, but not when it counts...

[mission]

keep the 3-4, keep the staff, promote someone

thanks capers for the "consulting" during our transition.

[Brandon494]

How many injuries did we have on defense?

Also do you remember our defense from last season?

[Brando19]

This is a post out of emotion....you don't fire Dom after his first year..especially when our D was in the top 2 or 3 most of the year. We need a better group of players in the secondary.

[BallHawk]

The fact that you aren't even willing to blame any of the players completely illegitimizes your argument. At the end of the day, there were coverages blown, tackles missed, bad reads, etc. That's on the players.

[b bulldog]

Capers does seem to cave during pressure situations

[BallHawk]

Capers does seem to cave during pressure situations

Home game against Dallas. Team was 4-4 and the season was basically riding on that game....Basically pitches a shutout.

[b bulldog]

Dallas tries to run the ball, that was our D's strength unlike the Steelers, Vikings, and Cards.

[ICU81MI]

This is a ridiculous thread. When they pressured Warner early they didn't get home. When they sat in coverage they got burned.

Coaching can only take you so far. At some point players have to make plays. Four and five man rushes were extremely ineffective today. Had they been, which has nothing to do with coaching, it would have been a much different game.

[wist43]

This is a post out of emotion....you don't fire Dom after his first year..especially when our D was in the top 2 or 3 most of the year. We need a better group of players in the secondary.

No it's not :lol: Capers has been around since... well, since I started studying Buddy Ryans 46 defense :D

As I said... I know a lot of you guys will site "stats"; but those can be illusory.

Capers does have a history, and I've never liked it... even though I acknowledge he is a very good, and very knowledgable coach.

In some ways it comes down to a persons nature... When his back is against the wall, he is timid - go back and watch the 1996 NFC Championship game - thank God, the opposing HC/DC was Dom Capers... he put us in the SB :wave:

I said earlier this week... we would know very quickly if we were to win this game or not based solely on defensive game plan.

It is a testiment to luck, Neil Rackers, and maybe even to M3 and the offense in general that they were able to make it close - b/c from a standpoint of defensive prowess??? We didn't have a chance.

Today, the defense of the Green Bay Packers was an embarrassement... and that falls on Dom Capers.

For those of you who are younger... perhaps you don't know Dom; but, I know Dom, and nothing I saw today suprised me.

Go back and watch the 1996 NFC Championship game...

We easily won that game on our way to our only Championship in the past 40+ years - even though I think we were destined to win that Championship b/c we had a great team - but facing a timid/simplicitic defensive scheme like what Dom Capers trotted out there for the Carolina Panthers... well :D that certainly made things easier :D

No... as I said, I think Dom is a good coach, but in the end, he will get you beat in big games. Pitt beating Arizona in last years SB was more a "fluke" on his resume than anything else...

[Fritz]

This is a ridiculous thread. When they pressured Warner early they didn't get home. When they sat in coverage they got burned.

Coaching can only take you so far. At some point players have to make plays. Four and five man rushes were extremely ineffective today. Had they been, which has nothing to do with coaching, it would have been a much different game.

What he said.

[ICU81MI]

wist your threads and the game thread has been ridiculous today. At some point players have to play. Not much that coaching can do when players are outmanned.

[Brando19]

wist your threads and the game thread has been ridiculous today. At some point players have to play. Not much that coaching can do when players are outmanned.

Agreed...Capers had a shitty secondary to play with today. No argument there.

[Fritz]

Vanilla Bob's firing last year was warranted. It would be foolish to turn around and fire Capers now, after what he's done with this defense in one year.

Crazy idea. It's that 'let's fire someone every time we lose' theory of fandom.

[retailguy]

Vanilla Bob's firing last year was warranted. It would be foolish to turn around and fire Capers now, after what he's done with this defense in one year.

Crazy idea. It's that 'let's fire someone every time we lose' theory of fandom.

I don't know fritz. Slowik is available, I think. :wink:

[wist43]

This is a ridiculous thread. When they pressured Warner early they didn't get home. When they sat in coverage they got burned.

Coaching can only take you so far. At some point players have to make plays. Four and five man rushes were extremely ineffective today. Had they been, which has nothing to do with coaching, it would have been a much different game.

Obviously, you are a newbie :lol:

I am wist...

When in doubt??? Blitz... if 4 don't get home, send 5; if 5 don't get home, send 6; if 6 don't get home, send 7...

... if 7 don't get home, go over and punch the HC in the mouth and start a brawl :D

As I said... I am not new to the game - been watching Dom Capers for decades; and, as Hannibel Lecter says, "read Marcus Aurelius, what is the first in princple thing he does... what is his nature"??? For Dom Capers - he has a history of what we saw today...

Our lofty defensive ranking notwithstanding... I am not at all surprised, and based upon viewing our first defensive series, I knew the outcome - simply b/c I have decent understanding of Dom Capers - been watching him for years.

As I said, a leopard doesn't change his spots... and we saw Dom Capers spots today - hence, he needs to go, in order for the Packers to improve...

The other alternative would be that someone, i.e. M3 intervene and inject himself into game planning, and play calling on the defensive side of the ball.

Did I mention Dom gave up 51 pts today??? :lol:

[wist43]

wist your threads and the game thread has been ridiculous today. At some point players have to play. Not much that coaching can do when players are outmanned.

Agreed...Capers had a shitty secondary to play with today. No argument there.

Hey... I knew the outcome from the beginnig...

Don't know what to tell you... I said last week - if he comes out passive, we're screwed.

He came out passive, stayed passive, we were screwed... nobody was more bummed than me.

I knew we were destined to give up big pts from our very first defensive snap... was I wrong??? :lol:

[Carolina_Packer]

When your depth at safety includes Matt Giordano, you've got to shore that up and get better. I'm sure Warner and his receivers were licking their chops to see him back there in coverage. With all the time Warner had, and the depleted secondary, it's no surprising that they put up 45 on the defense today. I don't necessarily put that on Dom, but the personnel they had to go with. I am surprised that the Packers didn't get more pressure on Warner, but he does have a quick release. That said, the secondary was very bad today in coverage, to go with the lack of pressure.

[channtheman]

I agree wist. How can you blame the Packers when the defensive scheme is so bad? You can't. Being at the game I was watching Breaston OVER AND OVER come off the line so easily and he was open for his entire route almost every time. It was truly embarassing to watch this game. Capers against Warner, Favre, etc. sucks and it showed 3 times this year. I agree with thanking him for the transition but going out and finding another defensive coordinator.

[wist43]

This is a ridiculous thread. When they pressured Warner early they didn't get home. When they sat in coverage they got burned.

Coaching can only take you so far. At some point players have to make plays. Four and five man rushes were extremely ineffective today. Had they been, which has nothing to do with coaching, it would have been a much different game.

What he said.

Back it up... any of you!!!!

I defy any of you!!!!

Go ahead, fight me on this... we gave up 51 pts, Dom has a history - plenty of fodder to fight with.

Am I missing something???

I mentioned the '96 NFC Championship Game... was ecstatic with Dom's defensive game plan :lol:

Put us in the SB...

51 pts... surely this is Jarret Bush's fault, right???

[wist43]

I agree wist. How can you blame the Packers when the defensive scheme is so bad? You can't. Being at the game I was watching Breaston OVER AND OVER come off the line so easily and he was open for his entire route almost every time. It was truly embarassing to watch this game. Capers against Warner, Favre, etc. sucks and it showed 3 times this year. I agree with thanking him for the transition but going out and finding another defensive coordinator.

Is it rocket science to bust the slot receiver in the chops, and send 5???

Arizona receivers were given clean releases all day... you might as well be trying to cover with cheerleaders.

[rbaloha1]

Capers should not be fire. The defense improved and is on its way to becomong a top caliber d.

All season felt the defense was overrated. Only shut down one top qb -- Romo. Favre, Palmer, Rothleisberger and Warner shredded our d.

Another draft, resigns and free agency shall bring more 3-4 types.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Stupid thread

[wist43]

Stupid thread

51 pts... care to defend???

Didn't think so Harv...

I made a case, did you defend??? Of course not...

[BallHawk]

Stupid thread

45 pts... care to defend???

Fixed.

[wist43]

Capers should not be fire. The defense improved and is on its way to becomong a top caliber d.

All season felt the defense was overrated. Only shut down one top qb -- Romo. Favre, Palmer, Rothleisberger and Warner shredded our d.

Another draft, resigns and free agency shall bring more 3-4 types.

I guess that's my point...

Doesn't matter how much the personnel is improved, Dom Capers has a baseline nature...

If his initial game plan is crap - you're going to lose.

Good coach... always thought he was a good coach; just not a championship calibur coach, or a good game day coach, or even necessarily a good game planning coach.

If we were truly the #2 ranked defense in the league... would we have given up 51 pts??? Is something wrong with this picture??

[wist43]

Stupid thread

45 pts... care to defend???

Fixed.

Well, actually... I'm ashamed for Arizona that they didn't score more :D

60+ was probably a more accurate measure :D

[digitaldean]

Dom's scheming was a contributing factor, but it was more a lack of playmaking by the D. The horrible tackling by Hawk, Chillar, Collins, even C-Wood didn't help. The lack of secondary depth was exposed today.

The players have to make plays. Today they weren't in position plus they were more interested in stripping the ball than wrapping up and tackling.

It was a TEAM loss all the way around. A-Rod threw a pick that led to a TD, DD had a fumble that led to a TD, Crosby had an indoor FG attempt that cost us 3 points also. Poor clock mgmt. before HT cost us a chance at a TD.

There are VERY fine lines between winning and losing. They are even finer in the playoffs. We didn't deserve to win, because we didn't execute on the field. It's not all coaching, but it was a factor.

[Carolina_Packer]

Capers should not be fire. The defense improved and is on its way to becomong a top caliber d.

All season felt the defense was overrated. Only shut down one top qb -- Romo. Favre, Palmer, Rothleisberger and Warner shredded our d.

Another draft, resigns and free agency shall bring more 3-4 types.

I guess that's my point...

Doesn't matter how much the personnel is improved, Dom Capers has a baseline nature...

If his initial game plan is crap - you're going to lose.

Good coach... always thought he was a good coach; just not a championship calibur coach, or a good game day coach, or even necessarily a good game planning coach.

If we were truly the #2 ranked defense in the league... would we have given up 51 pts??? Is something wrong with this picture??

Wist, the defense was like bringing a knife to a gunfight today. The offense did their job, outside of some early miscues. Couldn't have asked the to do much more than they did. The defense showed it's lack of depth today, especially in the secondary, when the d-line and linebackers couldn't get much pressure. No pressure and a depleted secondary plays into the hands of a good offense like Arizona's. If you have some more help in the secondary and get some pressure, it might be a blow-out in our favor. Do you really think this is the crew that we'll be forced to go with on defense next season. Even still, they finished the season right up there, so imagine what they can do with some more talent in place.

[hoosier]

This is a ridiculous thread. When they pressured Warner early they didn't get home. When they sat in coverage they got burned.

Coaching can only take you so far. At some point players have to make plays. Four and five man rushes were extremely ineffective today. Had they been, which has nothing to do with coaching, it would have been a much different game.

What he said.

Back it up... any of you!!!!

I defy any of you!!!!

Go ahead, fight me on this... we gave up 51 pts, Dom has a history - plenty of fodder to fight with.

Am I missing something???

I mentioned the '96 NFC Championship Game... was ecstatic with Dom's defensive game plan :lol:

Put us in the SB...

51 pts... surely this is Jarret Bush's fault, right???

Your insinuation that Capers's scheme cost Carolina the 1996 championship game is ridiculous--as are your ideas about what TT should do with his DC in 2010. Capers didn't lose the NFCCG in 96, the Panthers lost to a much more talented and experienced team. Look at who they had on offense that year: a young Kerry Collins, a nobody at RB named Anthony Johnson, Wesley Walls and a bunch of average WRs. The defense and special teams were the only things that stood out about that team, and the defensive success they had was a credit to Capers as much or more than it was to their talent, which was not exactly overwhelming.

Fire Capers because the defense gave up 45 points to Arizona? I guess the Cardinals should fire their DC for giving up 45 to GB too then. :lol: This was a painful loss, but it is too bad that the amazing near-comeback engineered by Rodgers has to be overshadowed by loose canons calling for everyone's head while remaining totally oblivious to what continuity brings to a team.

[channtheman]

Stupid thread

45 pts... care to defend???

Fixed.

That's much better looking. It's acceptable to give up only 45. Once you break the 50 point barrier though it's terrible. :roll:

[hoosier]

dp

[wist43]

I don't accept "lack of depth" as an excuse... maybe a "lack of depth" gets you to giving up, what??? 30 pts... but I'm a defensive guy... winnning a game 10-6 is a beautiful thing in my view :D

There's no excuse for a DC essentially saying, "okay, let's play Harlem Globe Trotters" and give everyone free releases... wow, that is just some kind of stupid.

The one punt they did force... I laughed, coz Woodson actually had Fitz in man coverage right off the line - jeez??? ya think ya might be on to something there???

Watch the Baltimore game... that is defense. What Dom Capers trotted out there was embarrassing.

You can't have it both way guys, i.e. "we're the #2 defense in the league - but a couple of injuries = 51 pts"

As I said... something wrong with this picture... don't think it unreasonable to look at Dom.

[Bretsky]

This is a ridiculous thread. When they pressured Warner early they didn't get home. When they sat in coverage they got burned.

Coaching can only take you so far. At some point players have to make plays. Four and five man rushes were extremely ineffective today. Had they been, which has nothing to do with coaching, it would have been a much different game.

What he said.

Back it up... any of you!!!!

I defy any of you!!!!

Go ahead, fight me on this... we gave up 51 pts, Dom has a history - plenty of fodder to fight with.

Am I missing something???
I mentioned the '96 NFC Championship Game... was ecstatic with Dom's defensive game plan :lol:

Put us in the SB...

51 pts... surely this is Jarret Bush's fault, right???



What is this history you speak of ? You using the 96 game; is that really all ? Ripping him for today is fine; but is that other game all you really have ? How has Dom faired with other teams as the DC ? Give me a history lesson if you are calling for him to be fired.

[Fosco33]

No fucking way do you fire Capers.

You either face an onfire Warner - or the shitty Warner. We got the former.

[esoxx]

The two turnover's on the first three offensive plays put them a big hole before the game even settled in. I'm not going to bash Capers for that.

This is the first year of running the 3-4. They led the league in run D. Now it's time to clean up the back end.

You're nuts to fire Capers and essentiallly start over on D.

[sheepshead]

I thought this was a joke...let it die.

[BZnDallas]

I don't accept "lack of depth" as an excuse... maybe a "lack of depth" gets you to giving up, what??? 30 pts... but I'm a defensive guy... winnning a game 10-6 is a beautiful thing in my view :D

There's no excuse for a DC essentially saying, "okay, let's play Harlem Globe Trotters" and give everyone free releases... wow, that is just some kind of stupid.

The one punt they did force... I laughed, coz Woodson actually had Fitz in man coverage right off the line - jeez??? ya think ya might be on to something there???

Watch the Baltimore game... that is defense. What Dom Capers trotted out there was embarrassing.

You can't have it both way guys, i.e. "we're the #2 defense in the league - but a couple of injuries = 51 pts"

As I said... something wrong with this picture... don't think it unreasonable to look at Dom.



i love the fact that we can't have it both ways, yet you say Dom is a good coach but can't win the big one... you say Doms defense wins a SB inspite of himself... you say Dom loses the '96 championship game b/c of his defense when that '96 GB team had a No. 1 offense and defense and was obviously the best team in football that year... (didn't carolina whoop the shit out of the cowboys a week before that?)... you say you can tell we were gonna lose this game b/c of the first drive when we were on defense... easy to call that, when they had such a short field... you say YOU are a 'defensive guy', where do you coach??? c'mon you are better than that...

i think Dom def could have done better today... but so could the players!! i agree we need to send more blitzes with more guys... play some bump and run and try and get warner on his ass early!... but to fire the guy after one year when he has done so much with this defense (and if remember correctly you say we have so little talent on the defensive side of the ball)... OVERREACTION???? c'mon wist you are better than that...

[MJZiggy]

I thought this was a joke...let it die.

Ohferchrissakes people. Now you've got me agreeing with Sheepshead? Knock it off!!

[wist43]

Actually, with a sufficient improvement in defensive talent... I believe even "Dom 'i am a pussy under pressure' Capers" can win championships...

He proved that last year... none of us will ever know how much influence Mike Tomlin had on him... given the game plans I saw executed while he was with the Steelers, I can't believe Capers was in complete control.

I know Capers won't be fired... but to me, there is never, ever, an excuse to go into a "do or die" game, and play passively - to me, it is nauseating.

I first came to, shall we say "maturity", as a student of Buddy Ryans 46... I studied if for hours on end, and had seriously considered going into coaching (for good or ill, as far as defensive football is concerned, Buddy Ryan is my hero :D) - it is in my nature to be aggressive; hence, I readily recognize weakness in others... Dom Capers is only aggressive if forcecd - and that is what I can't stand about the guy.

You guys can make excuses all you want... but look at the tape. If he comes in with a "passive" game plan - the overall game plan necessarily has to be - to score 40+ pts...

What sense does that make??? Has M3 even considered that??? Does he solely sit in offensive meetings completely oblivious to the fact that his DC has conceded 40+ pts???

From the very first snap, I knew, that from a defensive standpoint they were committed to giving up 40+ pts... was M3 on that same page???

As I said, it is not rocket science... if you're allowing the slot receiver free release the entire game - I don't care if the slot receiver is Hillary Clinton or Dolly Parton... you're going to be giving up an awful lot of first downs, and an awful lot of pts.

Am I missing something??? :lol:

Tell ya what... make me the OC of your opposition, give me Hillary Clinton as my slot receiver, and play those coverages - I'll still kick your ass with 51 pts.

I don't care who you are, what team you coach, what scheme you run, where you were born, what color your skin...

51 pts??? That is a complete embarrassment.

Go ahead, defend it!!! Al Harris's knee??? Gimme a break... surely Dom is innocent , and 51 pts is not only acceptable, but defensible :roll:

[The Leaper]

You don't fire Capers. The guy made this defense respectable...even with the losses of Harris and Kampman. If you had said before the season that the defense would lose Harris and Kampman, most would've assumed the defense would've gone into the tank.

Should he be taken to task for this defensive gameplan? Sure he should. He should be told that kind of disappearing act will not be tolerated again.

The defense has some needs. We clearly are very thin in the secondary...which is dangerous when the playoffs is full of elite QBs and offenses these days.

Overall, the defense took a major step forward this year...but more work needs to be done, obviously. Give Capers a chance to finish the job...I really don't see anyone on the staff capable of stepping up to DC right now.

[wist43]

I thought this was a joke...let it die.

Ohferchrissakes people. Now you've got me agreeing with Sheepshead? Knock it off!!

Com'on MJ...

You know me to far too intelligent to stake out an indefensible position... Breeds Hill, or Bunker Hill, lol... I'm willing to fight this one out :D

BTW, we found out a couple of days ago, it's a girl... I'll be the oldest dad at graduation :D

Super psyched about that :D

[retailguy]

I thought this was a joke...let it die.

Ohferchrissakes people. Now you've got me agreeing with Sheepshead? Knock it off!!

the ground is shaking here. I think it's the big one.

[MJZiggy]

I thought this was a joke...let it die.

Ohferchrissakes people. Now you've got me agreeing with Sheepshead? Knock it off!!

Com'on MJ...

You know me to far too intelligent to stake out an indefensible position... Breeds Hill, or Bunker Hill, lol... I'm willing to fight this one out :D

BTW, we found out a couple of days ago, it's a girl... I'll be the oldest dad at graduation :D

Super psyched about that :D

Yay girl! Congrats papa! (but they're just not going to fire Dom Capers)(and don't go overboard with the pink--and no pink packer gear. Green and gold or nada.)(except the breast cancer cap.)

[wist43]

You don't fire Capers. The guy made this defense respectable...even with the losses of Harris and Kampman. If you had said before the season that the defense would lose Harris and Kampman, most would've assumed the defense would've gone into the tank.

Should he be taken to task for this defensive gameplan? Sure he should. He should be told that kind of disappearing act will not be tolerated again.

The defense has some needs. We clearly are very thin in the secondary...which is dangerous when the playoffs is full of elite QBs and offenses these days.

Overall, the defense took a major step forward this year...but more work needs to be done, obviously. Give Capers a chance to finish the job...I really don't see anyone on the staff capable of stepping up to DC right now.

A voice of reason, lol...

In general, I agree with all of that... although, in a 3-4, I don't view Kampmans loss as a negative, but a plus. Love him as a 4-3 End, fish out of water as a 3-4 LB...

I know Capers won't be fired...

And I was fan #1 in the change to a 3-4... but I would hate to see our chances for a championship squandered by cowardice. Capers is just one of those guys... so afraid to die, that he can't bring himself to live, i.e. chocked by caution.

Beat me with 3 bombs??? I don't care... in the mean time, I've beat the living shit out of your QB, your OL doesn't know where I'm coming from, I've forced 3 turnovers, 5 sacks, and 14 pressures...

You may beat me... but if you do, you will earn it, and I can live with that - what I can't live with, is passivity, and simply hoping you don't "beat me" too bad...

I don't mind losing... what I mind is going down without a fight.

[wist43]

I thought this was a joke...let it die.

Ohferchrissakes people. Now you've got me agreeing with Sheepshead? Knock it off!!

Com'on MJ...

You know me to far too intelligent to stake out an indefensible position... Breeds Hill, or Bunker Hill, lol... I'm willing to fight this one out :D

BTW, we found out a couple of days ago, it's a girl... I'll be the oldest dad at graduation :D

Super psyched about that :D

Yay girl! Congrats papa! (but they're just not going to fire Dom Capers)(and don't go overboard with the pink--and no pink packer gear. Green and gold or nada.)(except the breast cancer cap.)

Already bought baby Fiona (I had no say in naming girl - mom's choice, lol) a "I was born a Packer Fan" shirt :D

She gives mama a kick whenever we score... so she is already on the side of righteousness :lol:

[BZnDallas]

I thought this was a joke...let it die.

Ohferchrissakes people. Now you've got me agreeing with Sheepshead? Knock it off!!

Com'on MJ...

You know me to far too intelligent to stake out an indefensible position... Breeds Hill, or Bunker Hill, lol... I'm willing to fight this one out :D

BTW, we found out a couple of days ago, it's a girl... I'll be the oldest dad at graduation :D

Super psyched about that :D

Yay girl! Congrats papa! (but they're just not going to fire Dom Capers)(and don't go overboard with the pink--and no pink packer gear. Green and gold or nada.)(except the breast cancer cap.)

Already bought baby Fiona (I had no say in naming girl - mom's choice, lol) a "I was born a Packer Fan" shirt :D

She gives mama a kick whenever we score... so she is already on the side of righteousness :lol:


CONGRATS on the newbie WIST!!!... :glug: always happy to add another fan to family!... and let me add, i do like reading your insightful posts... i do think for the most part you 'get it'... i may not always like what i read out of you, but it certainly makes for good conversation... again congrats on your new baby!!

[pbmax]

Congrats on the great news.

wist, Capers and Tomlin did not coach together on the Steelers. He was in New England last year.

A free release off the LOS is a basic feature of the Steelers zone for an interior receiver covered by a safety of LB. Even if they play short zones tight, its still zone with one interior receiver free to run into the short zone. That is the pass play they want you to take. Challenging the release of a slot receiver who is 3 yards off the LOS is a losing proposition. Too many angles to take.

The problem was that those interior receivers were getting into the middle of the field without being redirected in the route. And when they covered the interior, the X and Ys were getting into the middle with no help coming fast enough. The seam routes I think would have been harder to complete if Bigby plants someone during the game. I still don't know what happened to him. Never heard it on the radio.

Also, one effective pass rusher is not going to cut it. Even Matthews couldn't get home often enough to disrupt play. I think this is the flaw I agree with you on. If we could not get to the passer by the 2nd half, we needed to send the house. It also did not help that we tackled like a marching band.

But like Bretsky, if you can come up with a list of games to review that Capers has blown by being too passive, I am willing to look.

[Bossman641]

So let me get this straight Wist.

All year you've been playing the "mismatched players, trying to fit square pegs into a round hole" card, and now you are turning around and saying the players just weren't put into a position to succeed and that Capers is the problem? And this game and the 1996 Championship game are your proof?

[wist43]

Congrats on the great news.

wist, Capers and Tomlin did not coach together on the Steelers. He was in New England last year.

A free release off the LOS is a basic feature of the Steelers zone for an interior receiver covered by a safety of LB. Even if they play short zones tight, its still zone with one interior receiver free to run into the short zone. That is the pass play they want you to take. Challenging the release of a slot receiver who is 3 yards off the LOS is a losing proposition. Too many angles to take.

The problem was that those interior receivers were getting into the middle of the field without being redirected in the route. And when they covered the interior, the X and Ys were getting into the middle with no help coming fast enough. The seam routes I think would have been harder to complete if Bigby plants someone during the game. I still don't know what happened to him. Never heard it on the radio.

Also, one effective pass rusher is not going to cut it. Even Matthews couldn't get home often enough to disrupt play. I think this is the flaw I agree with you on. If we could not get to the passer by the 2nd half, we needed to send the house. It also did not help that we tackled like a marching band.

But like Bretsky, if you can come up with a list of games to review that Capers has blown by being too passive, I am willing to look.

Thanks for congrats on baby Fiona news...I will tell her - she will surely kick - to mama's chagrin :lol:

PB... you are right - perhaps that strengthens my case?? lol...

As for games to review.... I studied the 1996 Champ game for many hours, and that is why it comes to mind, but I am not retired, :D

However, my advocacy for the 3-4 was due in principle to pressure... with Matthews proving to be the answer as the rush ROLB, we're most of the way there... it is only a matter how can the DC screw it up from there??

Yes, we need help in the back end... but does that justify surrender??? What I saw today was surrender... "let's hope we can outscore em-ism"... nauseating.

Can any Packer fan sit back and accept that kind of passivity??? My nature is aggressive... God help you should you ever cross me - it's a switch, life/death/family - between the whistles - were I not a homeless, criminal, drug addicticed, academc - I surely would have been a pro-bowler :lol:

Marlon Brando got nothin on me, lol...

What I saw today... there's no excuse for that. I will tell you, I am one hell of a chess player - over 2000 - but, that is a different game; there is time to contemplate; and by nature, in that game, I am defensive by nature, but not chocked by caution - Capers is chocked by caution, if given a choice??? I'll rip your throat out... Capers??? He'd ask you what you'd like with your tea...

[Cheesehead Craig]

The two turnover's on the first three offensive plays put them a big hole before the game even settled in. I'm not going to bash Capers for that.

This is the first year of running the 3-4. They led the league in run D. Now it's time to clean up the back end.

You're nuts to fire Capers and essentiallly start over on D.
Agree 100%

This defense came very far this year compared to last season. Like others have said, let's keep the continuity and get the familiarity and chemistry up.

Changing co-ordinators every year is foolish. Especially when one has done a very good job.

[wist43]

So let me get this straight Wist.

All year you've been playing the "mismatched players, trying to fit square pegs into a round hole" card, and now you are turning around and saying the players just weren't put into a position to succeed and that Capers is the problem? And this game and the 1996 Championship game are your proof?

Dude... they gave up 51 pts :shock:

Whatever position of discontent I take, or took... doesn't that put you in the position of defending 51 pts??

Good Lord man... none of us is happy about today. What seperates me from the rest of you homers, is that from the opening defensive snap, I knew the outcome.

You can't play "pussy defense" like that and expect any other outcome... the fact that they made it close is perhaps a testiment to M3's abilities to overcome his DC's shortcomings...

Matthews is the real deal... Woodson had a HOF year... bodes well for the future, but if you come to a playoff game that kind of weak-ass defensive game plan??? Well, that's just 51 pts worth of laughable :lol:

And not in a good way... :(

[Bossman641]

So let me get this straight Wist.

All year you've been playing the "mismatched players, trying to fit square pegs into a round hole" card, and now you are turning around and saying the players just weren't put into a position to succeed and that Capers is the problem? And this game and the 1996 Championship game are your proof?

Dude... they gave up 51 pts :shock:

Whatever position of discontent I take, or took... doesn't that put you in the position of defending 51 pts??

Good Lord man... none of us is happy about today. What seperates me from the rest of you homers, is that from the opening defensive snap, I knew the outcome.

You can't play "pussy defense" like that and expect any other outcome... the fact that they made it close is perhaps a testiment to M3's abilities to overcome his DC's shortcomings...

Matthews is the real deal... Woodson had a HOF year... bodes well for the future, but if you come to a playoff game that kind of weak-ass defensive game plan??? Well, that's just 51 pts worth of laughable :lol:

And not in a good way... :(

I'll quote CC above as to why it is even ridiculous to consider getting rid of Capers.



This defense came very far this year compared to last season. Like others have said, let's keep the continuity and get the familiarity and chemistry up.

Changing co-ordinators every year is foolish. Especially when one has done a very good job.

[wist43]

So let me get this straight Wist.

All year you've been playing the "mismatched players, trying to fit square pegs into a round hole" card, and now you are turning around and saying the players just weren't put into a position to succeed and that Capers is the problem? And this game and the 1996 Championship game are your proof?

Dude... they gave up 51 pts :shock:

Whatever position of discontent I take, or took... doesn't that put you in the position of defending 51 pts??

Good Lord man... none of us is happy about today. What seperates me from the rest of you homers, is that from the opening defensive snap, I knew the outcome.

You can't play "pussy defense" like that and expect any other outcome... the fact that they made it close is perhaps a testiment to M3's abilities to overcome his DC's shortcomings...

Matthews is the real deal... Woodson had a HOF year... bodes well for the future, but if you come to a playoff game that kind of weak-ass defensive game plan??? Well, that's just 51 pts worth of laughable :lol:

And not in a good way... :(

I'll quote CC above as to why it is even ridiculous to consider getting rid of Capers.



This defense came very far this year compared to last season. Like others have said, let's keep the continuity and get the familiarity and chemistry up.

Changing co-ordinators every year is foolish. Especially when one has done a very good job.

I know they won't fire him... but a mans nature is his nature... Capers is passive - I"d rip his throat out, he'd ask me if i'd like more lemon in my tea.

Today, Kurt Whisenhunt is enjoying his lemon flavored tea...

I dare ya, I dare any of ya... defend 51 pts :lol:

[Tony Oday]

This is a post out of emotion....you don't fire Dom after his first year..especially when our D was in the top 2 or 3 most of the year. We need a better group of players in the secondary.

No it's not :lol: Capers has been around since... well, since I started studying Buddy Ryans 46 defense :D

As I said... I know a lot of you guys will site "stats"; but those can be illusory.

Capers does have a history, and I've never liked it... even though I acknowledge he is a very good, and very knowledgable coach.

In some ways it comes down to a persons nature... When his back is against the wall, he is timid - go back and watch the 1996 NFC Championship game - thank God, the opposing HC/DC was Dom Capers... he put us in the SB :wave:

I said earlier this week... we would know very quickly if we were to win this game or not based solely on defensive game plan.

It is a testiment to luck, Neil Rackers, and maybe even to M3 and the offense in general that they were able to make it close - b/c from a standpoint of defensive prowess??? We didn't have a chance.

Today, the defense of the Green Bay Packers was an embarrassement... and that falls on Dom Capers.

For those of you who are younger... perhaps you don't know Dom; but, I know Dom, and nothing I saw today suprised me.

Go back and watch the 1996 NFC Championship game...

We easily won that game on our way to our only Championship in the past 40+ years - even though I think we were destined to win that Championship b/c we had a great team - but facing a timid/simplicitic defensive scheme like what Dom Capers trotted out there for the Carolina Panthers... well :D that certainly made things easier :D

No... as I said, I think Dom is a good coach, but in the end, he will get you beat in big games. Pitt beating Arizona in last years SB was more a "fluke" on his resume than anything else...

seriously you can be a purple lover we would be ok with that.

[Bossman641]

Nobody can defend today's performance. The entire unit played like shit.

There can certainly be a case made though that it makes a lot more sense to build off the D's performance this year then to tear it down and start over again.

[packerbacker1234]

Bad game plan? They blitzed a lot... thats the players fault for not getting through.


This was year one. Our defense wasn't even suppose to be remotely good in YEAR ONE.

Capers stays, we would be idiots to do otherwise. You think capers had nothing to do with us trading up to get Matthews? We need this off season to really get the pieces in place. What do I mean?

Lack of depth in the secondary. Williams was decent, but he wasn't nearly the shut down guy harris was this year for us. We need backup safties. We also need another DL, and possibly a new OLB to replace Kampman/Jones. Jones showed some flashes, but wasn't even close to the same level as Matthews.

Plus - ANother year for the main group to be together in the scheme and learn. I mean, is he really all that horrible of a game manager and play caller? Is it his fault his players fall over?

You need to give capers one more year. Look at his history - He has a very long history of turning around defenses super fast. Within 2 or 3 years, they are usually one of the best. Forget the oppoents, he has a good track record period. With a year under his belt, he will know how to better utilize more of his players. He used Woodson MASTERFULLY, and he may get defensive palyer of the year beacause of it. Now with some tape, he may be able to do that with even more guys on this defense.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

It is like Partial took over Wist's account.

Wist, you are so full of shit, it isn't funny. You studied the 46 defense. LOL Please detail your studies. This is the funniest thing Ty has read in a long time.

P.S. Exactly how many championships did the aggressive defense of Buddy ryan win. Cause, just like you with capers and tomlin, I dont' believe it was his defense..it was the tempering of it thru Ditka.

Left unfettered, the 46 produced NOTHING!

[mraynrand]

This is a ridiculous thread. When they pressured Warner early they didn't get home. When they sat in coverage they got burned.

Coaching can only take you so far. At some point players have to make plays. Four and five man rushes were extremely ineffective today. Had they been, which has nothing to do with coaching, it would have been a much different game.

What he said.

Back it up... any of you!!!!

I defy any of you!!!!

Go ahead, fight me on this... we gave up 51 pts, Dom has a history - plenty of fodder to fight with.

Am I missing something???

I mentioned the '96 NFC Championship Game... was ecstatic with Dom's defensive game plan :lol:

Put us in the SB...

51 pts... surely this is Jarret Bush's fault, right???

Your insinuation that Capers's scheme cost Carolina the 1996 championship game is ridiculous--as are your ideas about what TT should do with his DC in 2010. Capers didn't lose the NFCCG in 96, the Panthers lost to a much more talented and experienced team. Look at who they had on offense that year: a young Kerry Collins, a nobody at RB named Anthony Johnson, Wesley Walls and a bunch of average WRs. The defense and special teams were the only things that stood out about that team, and the defensive success they had was a credit to Capers as much or more than it was to their talent, which was not exactly overwhelming.

Fire Capers because the defense gave up 45 points to Arizona? I guess the Cardinals should fire their DC for giving up 45 to GB too then. :lol: This was a painful loss, but it is too bad that the amazing near-comeback engineered by Rodgers has to be overshadowed by loose canons calling for everyone's head while remaining totally oblivious to what continuity brings to a team.


Couldn't have said it better. Carolina D was responsible for all 10 points Carolina scored in that game. Carolina offense got dominated by Packer D.

Packer fans want to look at Packer talent and imagine it's so much better than it is. Packers ran out three rookies on D yesterday and have a bunch of journeymen all over their defensive roster. Most of the year, they played above their talent level.

[wist43]

Have quite the hangover this am, lol... mostly just venting frustration.

That said, there's no excuse for that nonsense we saw yesterday... 51 pts???

What's equally amazing, is you guys seem to think they played well, and Capers did a great job... wow.

You guys did happen to notice - 51pts!!!!!

[Smidgeon]

Personally, I'm not sure that any defense could have stopped Warner the way he was playing. His throws were coming out fast and on target. Blitzing him wasn't doing anything, and sending the farm would have only given him more lanes. The best Capers could do is sit back and hope to close up the lanes. It didn't work, but I put that more on the inexperience of the defense against top tier QBs than against Capers' scheme.

[wist43]

Personally, I'm not sure that any defense could have stopped Warner the way he was playing. His throws were coming out fast and on target. Blitzing him wasn't doing anything, and sending the farm would have only given him more lanes. The best Capers could do is sit back and hope to close up the lanes. It didn't work, but I put that more on the inexperience of the defense against top tier QBs than against Capers' scheme.

That's the point...

Capers gave receivers free releases the whole game... Breaston would line up in the slot, run 12 yds untouched, and be wide open by 5 yds - easy pitch and catch.

Can't give receivers free releases like that... as I said last week, if Capers comes out with the game plan he did, it would allow Warner to get into a rhythm, and we'd end up in a track meet - that's exactly what happened.

[mraynrand]

What's equally amazing, is you guys seem to think they played well, and Capers did a great job... wow.

Yes, that's what we think. The Packer D played great. Capers did a great job. :roll:

[Bossman641]

Have quite the hangover this am, lol... mostly just venting frustration.

That said, there's no excuse for that nonsense we saw yesterday... 51 pts???

What's equally amazing, is you guys seem to think they played well, and Capers did a great job... wow.

You guys did happen to notice - 51pts!!!!!

Are you even reading the responses you are getting?

[Administrator]

Capers blew it yesterday, but you can't hang all of the points on him. There were two Turnovers deep in packer territory to start the game. Giving up one of the two touchdowns surely isn't on the defense. The last touchdown, in overtime, the defense wasn't even on the field.

Did the defense give up 51? No. But they gave up enough that it is clear that they didn't have a good day.

Don't think you fire the coach for one bad day, even in a critical situation. But it probably makes you question him a little bit.

If we're firing coaches, lets start with the offensive line coach.

[mraynrand]

The Packers got schooled. They got beat like a drum. Capers got outcoached and exposed. The Packers struggled to generate any pressure up the gut, they got outscheme having LBs covering WRs, they got outschemed getting small DBs getting run on, they got exposed for having a weak left side against the run, they got exposed for lack of depth in the secondary, and they got exposed for inexperience throughout the defense. There were some extenuating circumstances (turnovers, push offs), but every last deficiency on the defense got exposed and Warner had a hot hand. The Packer improved overall in 2009, but the switch to the 3-4 and injuries resulted in 4 rookies and some weak journeymen being on the field yesterday. If Thompson can repeat this past offseason for next year, I expect the defense to continue to improve. Too bad he didn't trade Kampman right away when they made the switch to the 3-4. That was the bold personnel move that might have made all the difference for this year.

[Administrator]

mraynrand, I see your point, just to add that they didn't really have an OLB to plug in for Kampman. Failing a trade or FA acquisition, they thought they needed him. Who'd have thought that Brad Joes would have stepped up and had the year he did?

clearly now, in this defense Kampman is expendable and should be traded. Last offseason? He was expendable, but it wasn't that clear.

Otherwise, I'm on your bandwagon. defense didn't give up 51, but they had an awful day.

Skinbasket made me laugh with his comment about the "vacant" sign in the middle of the defense. He's right. It was open all day, and Breaston ran through it doing his best impersonation of Jerry Rice. Breaston is certainly not Jerry Rice. sickening.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Capers got dealt a bad hand in the secondary.

Bush is worse than Will Blackmon & Patrick Lee. And losing Harris obviously hurt depth, even though Travon William played pretty well.

At safety, fans were happy to see Rouse get the axe, but he is a lot better than Giordino. Rouse played well as a starter for the Giants this year, and the other guy that Thompson cut, Anthony Smith, ended up starting for Jacksonville.

I say blame God for the injuries and, as always, FIRE TED THOMPSON!

[pbmax]

The Packers got schooled. They got beat like a drum. Capers got outcoached and exposed. The Packers struggled to generate any pressure up the gut, they got outscheme having LBs covering WRs, they got outschemed getting small DBs getting run on, they got exposed for having a weak left side against the run, they got exposed for lack of depth in the secondary, and they got exposed for inexperience throughout the defense. There were some extenuating circumstances (turnovers, push offs), but every last deficiency on the defense got exposed and Warner had a hot hand. The Packer improved overall in 2009, but the switch to the 3-4 and injuries resulted in 4 rookies and some weak journeymen being on the field yesterday. If Thompson can repeat this past offseason for next year, I expect the defense to continue to improve. Too bad he didn't trade Kampman right away when they made the switch to the 3-4. That was the bold personnel move that might have made all the difference for this year.
Considering the lack of pass rush, at least Kampman would have offered more to the run defense on the left side of the D. Jones was being manhandled by a TE (Becht).

[pbmax]

Capers got dealt a bad hand in the secondary.

Bush is worse than Will Blackmon & Patrick Lee. And losing Harris obviously hurt depth, even though though Travon William.

At safety, fans were happy to see Rouse get the axe, but he is a lot better than Giordino. Rouse played well as a starter for the Giants this year, and the other guy that Thompson cut, Anthony Smith, ended up starting for Jacksonville.

I say blame God for the injuries and, as always, FIRE TED THOMPSON!
Did you see the Giants play defense with him as a starter?

[Harlan Huckleby]

I saw Rouse make some hard tackles. I actually don't know if he sucked or not, but stop ruining my story.

Do you think the Giants would have used Giordino as a starter for the season?

[mraynrand]

The Packers got schooled. They got beat like a drum. Capers got outcoached and exposed. The Packers struggled to generate any pressure up the gut, they got outscheme having LBs covering WRs, they got outschemed getting small DBs getting run on, they got exposed for having a weak left side against the run, they got exposed for lack of depth in the secondary, and they got exposed for inexperience throughout the defense. There were some extenuating circumstances (turnovers, push offs), but every last deficiency on the defense got exposed and Warner had a hot hand. The Packer improved overall in 2009, but the switch to the 3-4 and injuries resulted in 4 rookies and some weak journeymen being on the field yesterday. If Thompson can repeat this past offseason for next year, I expect the defense to continue to improve. Too bad he didn't trade Kampman right away when they made the switch to the 3-4. That was the bold personnel move that might have made all the difference for this year.
Considering the lack of pass rush, at least Kampman would have offered more to the run defense on the left side of the D. Jones was being manhandled by a TE (Becht).

I agree with your point about Kampman. But when I first posted the idea of trading Kampman, the idea was to trade for a draft pick and use it for an OLB and/or another position on defense or offense. With Kampman out the of the picture, TT would have been forced to find an OLB to replace him, other than J. Thompson or Brad Jones. I know TT couldn't have foreseen the injury, and that's why trading Kampman would have been such a bold move.

[pbmax]

The Packers got schooled. They got beat like a drum. Capers got outcoached and exposed. The Packers struggled to generate any pressure up the gut, they got outscheme having LBs covering WRs, they got outschemed getting small DBs getting run on, they got exposed for having a weak left side against the run, they got exposed for lack of depth in the secondary, and they got exposed for inexperience throughout the defense. There were some extenuating circumstances (turnovers, push offs), but every last deficiency on the defense got exposed and Warner had a hot hand. The Packer improved overall in 2009, but the switch to the 3-4 and injuries resulted in 4 rookies and some weak journeymen being on the field yesterday. If Thompson can repeat this past offseason for next year, I expect the defense to continue to improve. Too bad he didn't trade Kampman right away when they made the switch to the 3-4. That was the bold personnel move that might have made all the difference for this year.
Considering the lack of pass rush, at least Kampman would have offered more to the run defense on the left side of the D. Jones was being manhandled by a TE (Becht).

I agree with your point about Kampman. But when I first posted the idea of trading Kampman, the idea was to trade for a draft pick and use it for an OLB and/or another position on defense or offense. With Kampman out the of the picture, TT would have been forced to find an OLB to replace him, other than J. Thompson or Brad Jones. I know TT couldn't have foreseen the injury, and that's why trading Kampman would have been such a bold move.
No, I agree. I was just pointing out the irony of Kampman's overall misfit possibly being useful yesterday.

[wist43]

Have quite the hangover this am, lol... mostly just venting frustration.

That said, there's no excuse for that nonsense we saw yesterday... 51 pts???

What's equally amazing, is you guys seem to think they played well, and Capers did a great job... wow.

You guys did happen to notice - 51pts!!!!!

Are you even reading the responses you are getting?

:lol: Actually, not reading much... last night I was wasted (so my apologies for being overly contentious), and this am I'm hungover :D

I don't drink much, so my head is hurting quite a bit this am :alc:

[wist43]

This is what I wrote last Friday,

Quote:

As our debates in other threads have gone... to me, it's all about pressure. To that end, I would open up the playbook on defense.

If Warner hits on a couple??? So what??? Keep the pressure coming... I'd rather give up a couple of TD's b/c they just happened to hit on one or two, than to sit back and let Warner get into a rhythm, and give up 40+ points, 500 yds, and 38 minutes TOP, 7 to 18 yds at a time.

If Capers gets conservative, I don't like our odds. If Capers does get conservative... I think our only chance is for the offense to score on just about every possession, b/c Arizona will surely be putting pts on the board, only question would be if we could keep pace.

Unquote

Obviously Capers came out conservative, and true to his nature, he didn't adjust.

I knew from the first couple of series the defensive game plan was a disaster. It's hard to lay a lot of blame on the players - Capers game plan, and his in-game play calling were crap... the players really didn't have a chance.

[MOBB DEEP]

Nobody can defend today's performance. The entire unit played like shit.

There can certainly be a case made though that it makes a lot more sense to build off the D's performance this year then to tear it down and start over again.

qft

[pbmax]

From Football Outsiders (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/audibles/2010/audibles-line-wild-card-round)


Aaron Schatz: Touchdown, Steve Breaston, right up the middle in a huge hole in the zone. Kurt Warner wasn't kidding when he told the FOX people that there were holes in the Packers coverage up the middle. I just checked, and Packers ranked 20th in DVOA on passes marked "deep middle." That's not too bad, but it is their worst ranking against any of the six directions (short/deep and left/middle/right). By the way, Dallas was 20th against passes marked deep middle, New Orleans 24th, and Minnesota 28th. Uh-oh.
He has a ranking wrong, both Dallas and Green Bay can't be twentieth (unless its actually a tie) but it might be something to look at in the next game or two (or three).

[mraynrand]

This is what I wrote last Friday,

Quote:

As our debates in other threads have gone... to me, it's all about pressure. To that end, I would open up the playbook on defense.

If Warner hits on a couple??? So what??? Keep the pressure coming... I'd rather give up a couple of TD's b/c they just happened to hit on one or two, than to sit back and let Warner get into a rhythm, and give up 40+ points, 500 yds, and 38 minutes TOP, 7 to 18 yds at a time.

If Capers gets conservative, I don't like our odds. If Capers does get conservative... I think our only chance is for the offense to score on just about every possession, b/c Arizona will surely be putting pts on the board, only question would be if we could keep pace.

Unquote

Obviously Capers came out conservative, and true to his nature, he didn't adjust.

I knew from the first couple of series the defensive game plan was a disaster. It's hard to lay a lot of blame on the players - Capers game plan, and his in-game play calling were crap... the players really didn't have a chance.

Interesting. Jimmy Johnson said that you have two choices: blitz or play coverage; with an experienced, solid QB you play coverage and with an inexperienced guy you blitz. So he had the opposite view.

Thing is, you can scheme all day, but you have to get it done on the field. It's possible the Packers could have kept blitzing and have finally gotten there and made a difference, but I'm guessing not. One critical item was the running game. The Packers defense has struggled mightily in games where they give up yards rushing on early downs - just like last year. The same thing happened this year. The loss to Cin, the losses to MN, and the loss to the Cards. The Packers gave those teams too many second and third and short downs. It's hard to blitz on third and short, because it's way too easy to throw the hot read. The Packer's failure I think was the inability to make the Cards one-dimensional and not get them into third and long, just like happened in their defensive failures the entire year. Plus, there were some serious coverage f-ups.

[wist43]

Yeah, I saw JJ's comments... I just disagree. Look what Baltimore did to Brady??

As it is - they did, in fact, give up 500+ yds and 40+ pts... and how did Arizona ultimately win the game??? On a Corner blitz that resulted in a sack, fumble, and TD - game over.

As I said, so what if they hit on few... it's better than bleeding to death, and letting Warner sit in the pocket and write his memoirs. Bring the heat from every which angle, show a lot of presnap movement to get the OL thinking and leaning...

I think I have a pretty strong case for saying that the approach they took yesterday certainly wasn't the right one.

[Old School]

I can't believe I hung in through 4 pages of this negativity. I usually enjoy the back and forth and seldom post, but as Popeye said, "That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more".

If I understand what I read, the original premise here points to two DC openings any minute now. If I were smarter than Dom Capers, I'd be at 1265 offering to help, not wasting my time here.

[Administrator]

I think I have a pretty strong case for saying that the approach they took yesterday certainly wasn't the right one.

What you may not have though, is support that blitzing would have been the better approach to take. It may have been worse.

I remember several catches by both Doucet and Breaston coming across the middle yesterday. The middle was wide open and a source for many of the Cardinals 1st downs.

Blitzing without plugging that gaping hole may have made it even easier pickings than Warner actually had.

As others have said in this thread and other threads (including KYPack excellent summary), the coverage option may have been the best one of the bunch, and we saw just how ineffective that was.

[Bossman641]

This is what I wrote last Friday,

Quote:

As our debates in other threads have gone... to me, it's all about pressure. To that end, I would open up the playbook on defense.

If Warner hits on a couple??? So what??? Keep the pressure coming... I'd rather give up a couple of TD's b/c they just happened to hit on one or two, than to sit back and let Warner get into a rhythm, and give up 40+ points, 500 yds, and 38 minutes TOP, 7 to 18 yds at a time.

If Capers gets conservative, I don't like our odds. If Capers does get conservative... I think our only chance is for the offense to score on just about every possession, b/c Arizona will surely be putting pts on the board, only question would be if we could keep pace.

Unquote

Obviously Capers came out conservative, and true to his nature, he didn't adjust.

I knew from the first couple of series the defensive game plan was a disaster. It's hard to lay a lot of blame on the players - Capers game plan, and his in-game play calling were crap... the players really didn't have a chance.

Interesting. Jimmy Johnson said that you have two choices: blitz or play coverage; with an experienced, solid QB you play coverage and with an inexperienced guy you blitz. So he had the opposite view.

Thing is, you can scheme all day, but you have to get it done on the field. It's possible the Packers could have kept blitzing and have finally gotten there and made a difference, but I'm guessing not. One critical item was the running game. The Packers defense has struggled mightily in games where they give up yards rushing on early downs - just like last year. The same thing happened this year. The loss to Cin, the losses to MN, and the loss to the Cards. The Packers gave those teams too many second and third and short downs. It's hard to blitz on third and short, because it's way too easy to throw the hot read. The Packer's failure I think was the inability to make the Cards one-dimensional and not get them into third and long, just like happened in their defensive failures the entire year. Plus, there were some serious coverage f-ups.

Ding ding ding. Winner.

The Cards, if I remember right, faced 3 or 4 THIRD downs all game. They were never put in unfavorable situations.

[KYPack]

This was no defensive struggle. There were two punts yesterday. 1 by each team. The '85 Bears weren't present at this game, in body or spirit.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I think I have a pretty strong case for saying that the approach they took yesterday certainly wasn't the right one.
I certainly am not disagreeing with you. The whole defensive plan AND execution by the players was garbage.

Some days you're the dog, others you're the fire hydrant. The defense was the hydrant yesterday and the AZ offense was a whole pack of dogs.

I just don't feel that Capers needs to be fired.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Capers got dealt a bad hand in the secondary.

Bush is worse than Will Blackmon & Patrick Lee. And losing Harris obviously hurt depth, even though Travon William played pretty well.

At safety, fans were happy to see Rouse get the axe, but he is a lot better than Giordino. Rouse played well as a starter for the Giants this year, and the other guy that Thompson cut, Anthony Smith, ended up starting for Jacksonville.

I say blame God for the injuries and, as always, FIRE TED THOMPSON!

YAY!!!! MY BLUE BITCH IS BACK!!!!

[MichiganPackerFan]

Have quite the hangover this am, lol... mostly just venting frustration.

That said, there's no excuse for that nonsense we saw yesterday... 51 pts???

What's equally amazing, is you guys seem to think they played well, and Capers did a great job... wow.

You guys did happen to notice - 51pts!!!!!

Are you even reading the responses you are getting?

:lol: Actually, not reading much... last night I was wasted (so my apologies for being overly contentious), and this am I'm hungover :D

I don't drink much, so my head is hurting quite a bit this am :alc:

Seemed a bit out of character in your writing style!! Wist + emotion = scary.

Still (not sure if it was the booze perspective (nothing against having one btw!!!), but) it seems you derive more satisfaction in seeing capers fail than you would have in seeing the packers win.

I read your posts a lot more objectively than I did at JSO, because I think you understand the game. I'm just not sure you how to appreciate and enjoy the triumphs. (adding a question mark to invite a response): ?

[Pugger]

I thought this was a joke...let it die.

Ohferchrissakes people. Now you've got me agreeing with Sheepshead? Knock it off!! :lol: :lol:

[Pugger]

I saw Rouse make some hard tackles. I actually don't know if he sucked or not, but stop ruining my story.

Do you think the Giants would have used Giordino as a starter for the season?

There you go! We had to trot out the likes of Giordino, Bell and everyone's favorite CB Bush to stop a high powered passing attack like AZ. Honestly, people. Capers had one hand tied behind his back with that disaster called the Packers' secondary. And not getting any pressure on Warner was a recipe for failure. AZ doubled CM3 and Jones didn't get in there. I'm hoping we might keep Kampman and use him like we once used KGB = a situational pass rusher and not put him out in coverage. It will depend, of course, if he can still rush the passer after rehabbing that knee.

[Smidgeon]

I saw Rouse make some hard tackles. I actually don't know if he sucked or not, but stop ruining my story.

Do you think the Giants would have used Giordino as a starter for the season?

There you go! We had to trot out the likes of Giordino, Bell and everyone's favorite CB Bush to stop a high powered passing attack like AZ. Honestly, people. Capers had one hand tied behind his back with that disaster called the Packers' secondary. And not getting any pressure on Warner was a recipe for failure. AZ doubled CM3 and Jones didn't get in there. I'm hoping we might keep Kampman and use him like we once used KGB = a situational pass rusher and not put him out in coverage. It will depend, of course, if he can still rush the passer after rehabbing that knee.

It also depends on if Kampman wants to be back.

[wist43]

Have quite the hangover this am, lol... mostly just venting frustration.

That said, there's no excuse for that nonsense we saw yesterday... 51 pts???

What's equally amazing, is you guys seem to think they played well, and Capers did a great job... wow.

You guys did happen to notice - 51pts!!!!!

Are you even reading the responses you are getting?

:lol: Actually, not reading much... last night I was wasted (so my apologies for being overly contentious), and this am I'm hungover :D

I don't drink much, so my head is hurting quite a bit this am :alc:

Seemed a bit out of character in your writing style!! Wist + emotion = scary.

Still (not sure if it was the booze perspective (nothing against having one btw!!!), but) it seems you derive more satisfaction in seeing capers fail than you would have in seeing the packers win.

I read your posts a lot more objectively than I did at JSO, because I think you understand the game. I'm just not sure you how to appreciate and enjoy the triumphs. (adding a question mark to invite a response): ?

Was angry... wouldn't have vented like that if I didn't think they had a chance. To me, there's no excuse for what we saw on Sunday... and now, sober as a judge :D, I still put the loss squarely on Capers.

Truthfully, I don't mind losing... what I mind is going down in such an embarrassing fashion based mainly one mans utter refusal to accept his initial game plan wasn't working, and then making adjustments accordingly. Capers has been getting ripped apart on the talk shows, and rightfully so...

As I said last Friday, we'd know pretty quickly what we were going to get on D, b/c if Capers came out with an unaggressive game plan, that would be it... he wouldn't adjust, Warner would get in a rhythm, and the game would become a track meet. Capers simply does not make adjustments... he may tweak things a bit, but only within the initial game plan itself... in this case, the game plan was a disaster, it was obvious from the very start, and needed to be abandoned; but, that is not Capers MO... he'll sit up there in the booth, scratch his head, and keep making the same calls.

51 pts, 500 yds, 29-33 passing, 5 TD's later... the Packers are relaxing at home.

I wonder if Dom is trying to explain to M3 and TT, "it should have worked, I don't know what went wrong, it looked good on paper" :roll:

[Joemailman]

Capers got dealt a bad hand in the secondary.

Bush is worse than Will Blackmon & Patrick Lee. And losing Harris obviously hurt depth, even though Travon William played pretty well.

At safety, fans were happy to see Rouse get the axe, but he is a lot better than Giordino. Rouse played well as a starter for the Giants this year, and the other guy that Thompson cut, Anthony Smith, ended up starting for Jacksonville.

I say blame God for the injuries and, as always, FIRE TED THOMPSON!

I knew if I returned you'd come back! But I digress...

Agree about Rouse. If TT didn't like the way he was playing early, they should have benched him. Releasing him left the team very weak at Safety behind the starters, and it came back ti bite them against the Cardinals.

[Smidgeon]

Capers got dealt a bad hand in the secondary.

Bush is worse than Will Blackmon & Patrick Lee. And losing Harris obviously hurt depth, even though Travon William played pretty well.

At safety, fans were happy to see Rouse get the axe, but he is a lot better than Giordino. Rouse played well as a starter for the Giants this year, and the other guy that Thompson cut, Anthony Smith, ended up starting for Jacksonville.

I say blame God for the injuries and, as always, FIRE TED THOMPSON!

I knew if I returned you'd come back! But I digress...

Agree about Rouse. If TT didn't like the way he was playing early, they should have benched him. Releasing him left the team very weak at Safety behind the starters, and it came back ti bite them against the Cardinals.

Because Rouse would've been the difference against the Cardinals... :roll:

[Smidgeon]

Have quite the hangover this am, lol... mostly just venting frustration.

That said, there's no excuse for that nonsense we saw yesterday... 51 pts???

What's equally amazing, is you guys seem to think they played well, and Capers did a great job... wow.

You guys did happen to notice - 51pts!!!!!

Are you even reading the responses you are getting?

:lol: Actually, not reading much... last night I was wasted (so my apologies for being overly contentious), and this am I'm hungover :D

I don't drink much, so my head is hurting quite a bit this am :alc:

Seemed a bit out of character in your writing style!! Wist + emotion = scary.

Still (not sure if it was the booze perspective (nothing against having one btw!!!), but) it seems you derive more satisfaction in seeing capers fail than you would have in seeing the packers win.

I read your posts a lot more objectively than I did at JSO, because I think you understand the game. I'm just not sure you how to appreciate and enjoy the triumphs. (adding a question mark to invite a response): ?

Was angry... wouldn't have vented like that if I didn't think they had a chance. To me, there's no excuse for what we saw on Sunday... and now, sober as a judge :D, I still put the loss squarely on Capers.

Truthfully, I don't mind losing... what I mind is going down in such an embarrassing fashion based mainly one mans utter refusal to accept his initial game plan wasn't working, and then making adjustments accordingly. Capers has been getting ripped apart on the talk shows, and rightfully so...

As I said last Friday, we'd know pretty quickly what we were going to get on D, b/c if Capers came out with an unaggressive game plan, that would be it... he wouldn't adjust, Warner would get in a rhythm, and the game would become a track meet. Capers simply does not make adjustments... he may tweak things a bit, but only within the initial game plan itself... in this case, the game plan was a disaster, it was obvious from the very start, and needed to be abandoned; but, that is not Capers MO... he'll sit up there in the booth, scratch his head, and keep making the same calls.

51 pts, 500 yds, 29-33 passing, 5 TD's later... the Packers are relaxing at home.

I wonder if Dom is trying to explain to M3 and TT, "it should have worked, I don't know what went wrong, it looked good on paper" :roll:

Warner was in rhythm from the first pass. Didn't matter how aggressive Caper's scheme was.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Have quite the hangover this am, lol... mostly just venting frustration.

That said, there's no excuse for that nonsense we saw yesterday... 51 pts???

What's equally amazing, is you guys seem to think they played well, and Capers did a great job... wow.

You guys did happen to notice - 51pts!!!!!

Are you even reading the responses you are getting?

:lol: Actually, not reading much... last night I was wasted (so my apologies for being overly contentious), and this am I'm hungover :D

I don't drink much, so my head is hurting quite a bit this am :alc:

Seemed a bit out of character in your writing style!! Wist + emotion = scary.

Still (not sure if it was the booze perspective (nothing against having one btw!!!), but) it seems you derive more satisfaction in seeing capers fail than you would have in seeing the packers win.

I read your posts a lot more objectively than I did at JSO, because I think you understand the game. I'm just not sure you how to appreciate and enjoy the triumphs. (adding a question mark to invite a response): ?

Was angry... wouldn't have vented like that if I didn't think they had a chance. To me, there's no excuse for what we saw on Sunday... and now, sober as a judge :D, I still put the loss squarely on Capers.

Truthfully, I don't mind losing... what I mind is going down in such an embarrassing fashion based mainly one mans utter refusal to accept his initial game plan wasn't working, and then making adjustments accordingly. Capers has been getting ripped apart on the talk shows, and rightfully so...

As I said last Friday, we'd know pretty quickly what we were going to get on D, b/c if Capers came out with an unaggressive game plan, that would be it... he wouldn't adjust, Warner would get in a rhythm, and the game would become a track meet. Capers simply does not make adjustments... he may tweak things a bit, but only within the initial game plan itself... in this case, the game plan was a disaster, it was obvious from the very start, and needed to be abandoned; but, that is not Capers MO... he'll sit up there in the booth, scratch his head, and keep making the same calls.

51 pts, 500 yds, 29-33 passing, 5 TD's later... the Packers are relaxing at home.

I wonder if Dom is trying to explain to M3 and TT, "it should have worked, I don't know what went wrong, it looked good on paper" :roll:

All for the aggressive approach, and hate the passive gameplans, but I don't believe that blitzing Warner would have changed anything. The ball is gone before anyone can get there and that's just one less person in coverage. There certainly needed to be someone protecting the short-middle of the field.

[Joemailman]

Capers got dealt a bad hand in the secondary.

Bush is worse than Will Blackmon & Patrick Lee. And losing Harris obviously hurt depth, even though Travon William played pretty well.

At safety, fans were happy to see Rouse get the axe, but he is a lot better than Giordino. Rouse played well as a starter for the Giants this year, and the other guy that Thompson cut, Anthony Smith, ended up starting for Jacksonville.

I say blame God for the injuries and, as always, FIRE TED THOMPSON!

I knew if I returned you'd come back! But I digress...

Agree about Rouse. If TT didn't like the way he was playing early, they should have benched him. Releasing him left the team very weak at Safety behind the starters, and it came back ti bite them against the Cardinals.

Because Rouse would've been the difference against the Cardinals... :roll:

Rouse would have better than Giordano once Bigby was hurt . Not saying it would necessarily have changed the outcome.

[Smidgeon]

Capers got dealt a bad hand in the secondary.

Bush is worse than Will Blackmon & Patrick Lee. And losing Harris obviously hurt depth, even though Travon William played pretty well.

At safety, fans were happy to see Rouse get the axe, but he is a lot better than Giordino. Rouse played well as a starter for the Giants this year, and the other guy that Thompson cut, Anthony Smith, ended up starting for Jacksonville.

I say blame God for the injuries and, as always, FIRE TED THOMPSON!

I knew if I returned you'd come back! But I digress...

Agree about Rouse. If TT didn't like the way he was playing early, they should have benched him. Releasing him left the team very weak at Safety behind the starters, and it came back ti bite them against the Cardinals.

Because Rouse would've been the difference against the Cardinals... :roll:

Rouse would have better than Giordano once Bigby was hurt . Not saying it would necessarily have changed the outcome.

Then how would Rouse have been better if it didn't change the outcome?

[Harlan Huckleby]

YAY!!!! MY BLUE BITCH IS BACK!!!!

Thanks for the shout out, but I'm just here doing a little slumming. I've got all sorts of new friends - pretty people, brilliant people, shakers and movers.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Then how would Rouse have been better if it didn't change the outcome?

You might be right that a better backup safety wouldn't have made a difference. BTW, I saw an article that praised Smith contribution at Jacksonville, he moved up to starter.

You never know, I bet Blackwell or Lee would have been better than Bushy. Rouse and Smith were certainly better than Gardenia (I know that's not his real name, dummy) and either would have been better in coverage than Bigby. I think overall the weak depth at secondary was a big problem.

[denverYooper]

YAY!!!! MY BLUE BITCH IS BACK!!!!

Thanks for the shout out, but I'm just here doing a little slumming. I've got all sorts of new friends - pretty people, brilliant people, shakers and movers.

Well, when you're sitting there
In your silk upholstered chair
Talking to some rich folk that you know
Well, I hope you won't see me
In my ragged company
You know I could never be alone