Just me, or does Slocum sound like a fool?

[Patler]

OK, these comments from Slocum are so contradictory that they make no sense at all:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/81373892.html

- Will not send Crosby to a kicking specialist, because it is his (Slocum's) job to handle it.
- Wrong advice can screw him up.
- About a month ago he and Crosby broke down and analyzed Crosby's technique.
- Encouraged Crosby to go out and talk to other kickers.

So he doesn't want him talking to a kicking specialist, but he should randomly consult other kickers? Wrong advice can screw him up, but instead of consulting a single specialist he should go out and talk to a number of other kickers? He won't defer to a specialist, because its his job to work with Crosby, but he will defer to advice from other kickers?

All this seems guaranteed to screw up Crosby more than he already is. Makes no sense to avoid a specialized coach with a proven track record in favor of random advice of random kickers.

I feel sorry for Crosby.

[australianpackerbacker]

I can see what your saying Patler. He sounds like an idiot that doesnt really know what hes doing. Either that, or hes trying too hard to control the situation. The way he talks, makes me think that he doesnt get it. Why the hell wouldnt you want your kicker to receive training from a specialist? The results are probably arguable, but wouldnt you want the best people you can find trying to help your guy, hoping that at least one of them has an effective technique that Crosby can use?

Technique isnt the problem IMO. Crosby lacks confidence. If wrong advice can screw him up, what is going on between the ears? We've got too many chokers on this team.

Seattle sent Jon Ryan to a specialist, and look what happened their. Mike Stock lost his job because of that decision. Ryan ranks 8th in the league in avg, 46.2, and 15th in net avg, 38.7. Granted, its not world class, but punters dont make or break games, they are not the difference between winning and losing, unless they screw up majorly. Slocum is going down that same road, deservedly so. We've got enough morons on this coaching staff anyway, just need to offload a few.

Personally, i think we need a new guy in their as special teams coach, i didnt think it was possible that our special teams would actually be worse than it was last year. Ryan Grant could even find a hole in our special teams units.

[Gunakor]

I'd be happy with a ST's coach that simply wasn't so full of himself. He's basically saying to Crosby what Stock said to Ryan. "It's my job, I can handle it myself. Don't seek outside help."

Boy, the apple doesn't fall very far does it?

[Patler]

I'd be happy with a ST's coach that simply wasn't so full of himself. He's basically saying to Crosby what Stock said to Ryan. "It's my job, I can handle it myself. Don't seek outside help."

Boy, the apple doesn't fall very far does it?

Sort of sounds that way.

Both Ryan and Crosby have stronger legs than average. Both are otherwise good athletes. Both came in as raw rookies. Neither was given the opportunity, and seemingly were denied permission to consult true specialists in kicking.

It seems that was a mistake with Ryan. I hope they aren't repeating the same mistake with Crosby.

[Scott Campbell]

Bring in King Louie.

[pbmax]

Bring in King Louie.
Aguiar?

Slocum must go. It sounds like Slocum believes the problem is between Crosby's ears. And he feels that talking to other kickers might give him some tips on adjusting for whatever block Slocum thinks he has in his preparation.

Even if that is not a mis-diagnosis, it would seem far better to give Crosby some physical landmarks to target in his approach, swing and follow through, rather than preach deep breathing or a positive outlook. If it really is psychological, then bring in a specialist in sports psych. Not Max Zendejas.

[hoosier]

Something tells me that if the Packers are letting Slocum talk to the media then he is still firmly entrenched as ST coach for 2010. He absolutely sounds like a carbon copy of Stock. That probably means that Crosby's future is likely to look a lot like Ryan's.

[Freak Out]

M3 needs to show this guy the door. With the kind of numbers the entire unit put out this year I'm surprised it didn't happen right after the final whistle in AZ.

[retailguy]

Slocum is a fool. I agree Patler. Hopefully he leaves. I had hoped he'd be gone before today.... :?

[KYPack]

Slocum is in WAY over his head. He was a LB in his playing career. All he knows about kicking is that he doesn't like bad ones.

If I was to be an NFL ST coach, I would truly be a coordinator. I'd have at least 4 coaches. A kick and punt rush coach. A coach for the kick returns and one or two kicking tutors. Those tutors are all over the place and can be had for a dime a dozen, but few NFL teams have them. We have one ST asst. A young kid who used to be a gunner.

The tutors would be under strict guidelines. Before they said anything negative or offer advice on altering technique, they'd have to talk to me. Then we'd approach the kicker with film work.

I know a little about placekicking technique. Probably more than Slocum does. This season I've noticed Crosby committing 3 of place kicking's deadly sins. He rushes. He flys open and (the worst) he errs in his plant. The easiest one to spot is the plant. A soccer kicker should plant right beside the ball. An inch too far forward or back can create a miss. Crosby has been off 6 inches to a foot on various plants this year.

In Pittsburgh, he made two mistakes on an easy field goal (although all kicks are tough there). The planted properly left foot will slide on a wet Heinz field. Crosby should have shortened his approach step and had ice cleats on his left foot. That way, your plant will hold. Even on the worst field in the NFL - Heinz field.

That is basic stuff for a knowlegeable ST coach. Which Slocum ain't.

We had the worst ST in the NFL. let's get us a vet coach who knows what the hell he is doing.

[Smidgeon]

Slocum is in WAY over his head. He was a LB in his playing career. All he knows about kicking is that he doesn't like bad ones.

If I was to be an NFL ST coach, I would truly be a coordinator. I'd have at least 4 coaches. A kick and punt rush coach. A coach for the kick returns and one or two kicking tutors. Those tutors are all over the place and can be had for a dime a dozen, but few NFL teams have them. We have one ST asst. A young kid who used to be a gunner.

The tutors would be under strict guidelines. Before they said anything negative or offer advice on altering technique, they'd have to talk to me. Then we'd approach the kicker with film work.

I know a little about placekicking technique. Probably more than Slocum does. This season I've noticed Crosby committing 3 of place kicking's deadly sins. He rushes. He flys open and (the worst) he errs in his plant. The easiest one to spot is the plant. A soccer kicker should plant right beside the ball. An inch too far forward or back can create a miss. Crosby has been off 6 inches to a foot on various plants this year.

In Pittsburgh, he made two mistakes on an easy field goal (although all kicks are tough there). The planted properly left foot will slide on a wet Heinz field. Crosby should have shortened his approach step and had ice cleats on his left foot. That way, your plant will hold. Even on the worst field in the NFL - Heinz field.

That is basic stuff for a knowlegeable ST coach. Which Slocum ain't.

We had the worst ST in the NFL. let's get us a vet coach who knows what the hell he is doing.

Bobby April?

[Fritz]

Why is it that the head coach can allow his players to speak up after a big loss and listen to what they say, and can hire assistants up the ying-yang, but the special teams coach can't stand to have his kicker go to a specialist and either is not allowed to or refuses to advocate for an assistant who actually knows something?

What the hell?

I hope MM has the testicular fortitude to dump Slocum.

[red]

he sounds like a guy that needs to be fired ASAP

how can they even justify keeping him with everything that went wrong on ST this year?

keeping incompetent people like him around is good way to lose your own job (looking at you MM and TT)

so did he just say that mason continued to suck because he (slocum) wanted to fix the problem and not let anyone else give it a try?

becaue i would have a MASSIVE problem with that. because he didn't get it fixed, and i might have cost us the season in the end

[KYPack]

Bobby April?

When I said vet coach, I mean a guy who's been around. The dollars you spend for an NFL assistants are relative peanuts. April is the "rock star" ST guy this season. He did well in Buff, but as Ty has pointed out many times, was canned in St Looey. With his big rep, he will command some relative big dollars for his next job.

I don't think he's worth it. There is an up and coming young Bobby April bouncing somewhere either in or out of the league. let's hire that guy and get our "special" guys all traveling in the right direction.

As far as Slocum being a control freak, they all are. ST coaches try to bring order to a chaotic situation. So they are all control freaks to an extent. Kicking is a rythmn/timing thing. It's almost exactly like a golf swing. So, you've got 10 crazy bastards trying to protect a guy trying to hit a long golf drive. Except on defense where you need 11 crazy fuckers trying to kill him. And don't even mention return guys, they are usually all goofy, too.

It's a tough bit of coaching and don't really ask Slocum how to do it, he doesn't know how. We were last in almost every ST dept last season. it's really a miracle we won as many games as we did with such poor ST.

[KYPack]

I got all the posts in this thread, eh?

Bobby April just got hired by the Eagles. They canned their ST guy after a year. The Eagles was ranked 2nd in the NFL by F Outsiders. That was mainly on the strength of their league leading punt return squad. They were poor in other areas, so Andy made the change.

I agree with Hoosier, I think they will keep Slocum. Those the Packers wish to unload are first driven into silence. Gullickson and Stock were heard no more last season, then they were gone.

Also think it's a mistake, we can't be ranked so lowly in all areas. We don't really have a strength on ST right now.

[red]

april is off the board, eagles signed him

but that doesn't mean we can no longer upgrade the position

there has to be a pile of dog shit out in my yard that i can convince to sign with the packers

[Bretsky]

Bedard commented that he highly doubt Slocum will be let go; he thought Campen being let go was possible

[denverYooper]

That's a damn shame.

http://www.videodetective.com/photos/006/00026824_.jpg

[Patler]

I know a little about placekicking technique. Probably more than Slocum does. This season I've noticed Crosby committing 3 of place kicking's deadly sins. He rushes. He flys open and (the worst) he errs in his plant. The easiest one to spot is the plant. A soccer kicker should plant right beside the ball. An inch too far forward or back can create a miss. Crosby has been off 6 inches to a foot on various plants this year.



OK, I will ask the obvious question. Were Crosby's steps wrong, resulting in his plant foot mislocations, or did the holder get the ball down in the wrong spot? Perhaps a combination of both?

Several times last year, it was said by reporters watching practices, that there wasn't a decent holder on the team. I'm not convinced that part of the problem isn't in the holds.

[Lurker64]

Why wouldn't Crosby go to a kicking specialist? He really has one thing to do as part of a football team, so what better way to spend the offseason than by perfecting your craft?

If I were an NFL kicker, I'd probably see a kicking specialist every year, even if I were the best kicker in football. I mean, it's not like Tiger Woods (pre-infidelity-related-hiatus) didn't work extensively with a swing coach every year.

[hoosier]

Why wouldn't Crosby go to a kicking specialist? He really has one thing to do as part of a football team, so what better way to spend the offseason than by perfecting your craft?

If I were an NFL kicker, I'd probably see a kicking specialist every year, even if I were the best kicker in football. I mean, it's not like Tiger Woods (pre-infidelity-related-hiatus) didn't work extensively with a swing coach every year.

When it comes to swingin' nobody can teach Tiger a thing. :lol:

[pbmax]

Why wouldn't Crosby go to a kicking specialist? He really has one thing to do as part of a football team, so what better way to spend the offseason than by perfecting your craft?

If I were an NFL kicker, I'd probably see a kicking specialist every year, even if I were the best kicker in football. I mean, it's not like Tiger Woods (pre-infidelity-related-hiatus) didn't work extensively with a swing coach every year.
He just might. The story about Jon Ryan (from his agent, so reader beware) was that he was too deferential to simply go on his own to a specialist.

But there is a downside from Crosby's point of view. If he goes against the Coach's advice, then he better succeed, because there will be less support from the staff if he struggles again.

[SnakeLH2006]

Hard to fault the ST coach when the kicker has a 70 yard leg, but easy to blame the coach (see my avatar) when he keeps going to him to get his "confidence" and lose some games. I could see if we were 5-11 or so, but to keep going to Crosby lacks some smarts. Kid couldn't kick the ball threw a wet paper bag lately. That kid cost us games, and you must stop that. I don't care if the kid could kick Chuck Norris' ass at Yhatzee....He's terrible in the clutch and got flak earlier this year when I said it around game 8. He's not a "reliable kicker". I'll take a guy who can kick 42 yarders at will. Crosby sucks.

Blame Slocum all you want. "McCarthy put makeup on the pig. It's still a pig. It's a sexy pig, but McCarthy is the one who kept trying to have sex with it."

I'm only putting quotes on that last bit cuz that is worth someone's sig. It's that good. Credit the Snake, though....or at least say thanx.
:D

[Gunakor]

Hard to fault the ST coach when the kicker has a 70 yard leg, but easy to blame the coach (see my avatar) when he keeps going to him to get his "confidence" and lose some games. I could see if we were 5-11 or so, but to keep going to Crosby lacks some smarts. Kid couldn't kick the ball threw a wet paper bag lately. That kid cost us games, and you must stop that. I don't care if the kid could kick Chuck Norris' ass at Yhatzee....He's terrible in the clutch and got flak earlier this year when I said it around game 8. He's not a "reliable kicker". I'll take a guy who can kick 42 yarders at will. Crosby sucks.

Blame Slocum all you want. McCarthy put makeup on the pig. It's still a pig. It's a sexy pig, but McCarthy is the one who kept trying to have sex with it.

I disagree entirely. Use Ryan as an example. He was garbage while he was here being coached by our joke of a ST's staff. He went to Seattle, got independent help, and became top 10 in the league. The LAST thing I want to see is for Crosby to be let go, be signed by another team that gives him permission to work with a specialist outside the organization during the offseason, and become a top 10 kicker for another team.

The problem for Crosby is that he's not getting any help from his coaches, and he's not being allowed to work with someone who knows what the fuck they are talking about.

The blame should go entirely to Slocum for being so full of himself as to tell Crosby he can't/shouldn't seek help from a competent kicking coach. Slocum is definitely not competent in this area, certainly we can agree on that. If and when Crosby is allowed to work with an actual kicking coach, only then will we know for sure that Crosby sucks. In the meantime, don't expect Crosby to coach himself and say he sucks when he can't do it.

[Fritz]

The larger issue in all this is one Patler has mentioned before: MM's very mixed success in hiring coaches.

When he promotes from within, as he did with V-Bob, I think, and with Campen, I believe, it doesn't work so well. When he hires an established coach like Capers, who then makes his own hires with MM's approval (I think that's how it works), then the operation goes better.

The problem on ST is that it's MM's direct hire. Maybe he should hire someone to do his hiring for him.

Wait. If he did that, then the guy he hires to hire people would probably be a lousy hire. Oh well.

[Noodle]

KY, you've got a lot of posts on this because you have a lot of smart stuff to say about it. I know a bit about kicking, and you've always been dead on with your observations about Crosby.

Patler, it was the plant, not the holds, at Heinz. KY is right, the plants were bad, and KY is right about the reason. If you're playing on a slop field, you have to have less angle in your approach, shorten it, and focus like a MFer on getting a plant and mooth swing through. A good ST coach, knowing he going to the most notoriously slop field in the NFL, would have had Crosby practicing in slop all week to get the technique down.

Also, great analogy, Lurker, to golfers and swing coaches. If I'm an ST coach with no experience kicking, I'd insist on my guy getting a kicking specialist. Pick whoever the kicker wants and support him.

I don't blame Slocum for not knowing kicking, but I do blame him for not getting someone involved who does.

As Clint famously observed, "A man's got to know his limitations." Slocum doesn't.

[Patler]

Patler, it was the plant, not the holds, at Heinz. KY is right, the plants were bad, and KY is right about the reason. If you're playing on a slop field, you have to have less angle in your approach, shorten it, and focus like a MFer on getting a plant and mooth swing through. A good ST coach, knowing he going to the most notoriously slop field in the NFL, would have had Crosby practicing in slop all week to get the technique down.


I agree, but I wasn't referring to the kicks at Heinz field. I was referring to KY's mention of inconsistent foot placements throughout the year. Specifically I referred to the following quote in which I now add emphasis:



This season I've noticed Crosby committing 3 of place kicking's deadly sins. He rushes. He flys open and (the worst) he errs in his plant. The easiest one to spot is the plant. A soccer kicker should plant right beside the ball. An inch too far forward or back can create a miss. Crosby has been off 6 inches to a foot on various plants this year.


When I can, on missed kicks I try to look at the holder's body position and where his hands are relative to his body. This will tend to show if he is placing the ball accurately or not. The kicker expects the ball to be in a specific spot, and measures his steps accordingly. If the holder has to come out of his pre-snap position in order to catch the ball, it becomes more difficult to tell about the placement.. In my opinion, Flynn was less than consistent in his placements even when the snaps were accurate, but I'm not suggesting it was all his fault. The kicker can and should adjust some too.

I am firm believer that truly successful and consistent field goal kicking is a three man operation. The snaps have to be accurate, the holds have to be precise and the kicker has to consistent. Inaccurate or inconsistent snaps can affect timing and can lead to inaccurate ball placements if the holder has to move too much to catch the snap. A holder who doesn't catch cleanly can interrupt timing, and if his placements or ball orientation are inconsistent he forces to kicker to adjust. If the kicker is inconsistent or is forced out of his routine, results will vary.

[sharpe1027]

When I can, on missed kicks I try to look at the holder's body position and where his hands are relative to his body. This will tend to show if he is placing the ball accurately or not. The kicker expects the ball to be in a specific spot, and measures his steps accordingly. If the holder has to come out of his pre-snap position in order to catch the ball, it becomes more difficult to tell about the placement.. In my opinion, Flynn was less than consistent in his placements even when the snaps were accurate, but I'm not suggesting it was all his fault. The kicker can and should adjust some too.

I am firm believer that truly successful and consistent field goal kicking is a three man operation. The snaps have to be accurate, the holds have to be precise and the kicker has to consistent. Inaccurate or inconsistent snaps can affect timing and can lead to inaccurate ball placements if the holder has to move too much to catch the snap. A holder who doesn't catch cleanly can interrupt timing, and if his placements or ball orientation are inconsistent he forces to kicker to adjust. If the kicker is inconsistent or is forced out of his routine, results will vary.

Good analysis by everyone. One thing stands out to me though, the results didn't really vary. From the right hash mark, he kicked it beautifully to almost the same exact spot every time. Too bad that spot was wide right. :D

I think the misses from the right hash are pretty much on Crosby.

A wise man knows that he knows nothing. Slocum seems to "know" that he knows everything...

[Smidgeon]

When I can, on missed kicks I try to look at the holder's body position and where his hands are relative to his body. This will tend to show if he is placing the ball accurately or not. The kicker expects the ball to be in a specific spot, and measures his steps accordingly. If the holder has to come out of his pre-snap position in order to catch the ball, it becomes more difficult to tell about the placement.. In my opinion, Flynn was less than consistent in his placements even when the snaps were accurate, but I'm not suggesting it was all his fault. The kicker can and should adjust some too.

I am firm believer that truly successful and consistent field goal kicking is a three man operation. The snaps have to be accurate, the holds have to be precise and the kicker has to consistent. Inaccurate or inconsistent snaps can affect timing and can lead to inaccurate ball placements if the holder has to move too much to catch the snap. A holder who doesn't catch cleanly can interrupt timing, and if his placements or ball orientation are inconsistent he forces to kicker to adjust. If the kicker is inconsistent or is forced out of his routine, results will vary.

Good analysis by everyone. One thing stands out to me though, the results didn't really vary. From the right hash mark, he kicked it beautifully to almost the same exact spot every time. Too bad that spot was wide right. :D

I think the misses from the right hash are pretty much on Crosby.

A wise man knows that he knows nothing. Slocum seems to "know" that he knows everything...

Is that one of those "The more you know, the less you know you know" sort of things?

[sharpe1027]

Is that one of those "The more you know, the less you know you know" sort of things?

Sorta, even the smartest person can look like a fool if they think they know everything.

[Patler]

As you specialize, you learn more and more about less and less, until you finally you know absolutely everything about nothing.

[Smidgeon]

As you specialize, you learn more and more about less and less, until you finally you know absolutely everything about nothing.

Wouldn't that be the same as knowing nothing about everything?

[Patler]

One thing stands out to me though, the results didn't really vary. From the right hash mark, he kicked it beautifully to almost the same exact spot every time. Too bad that spot was wide right. :D

I think the misses from the right hash are pretty much on Crosby.



That is the very unusual aspect of this, and it would seem to indicate a consistent error. It would seem to indicate identical conditions on each miss, most likely, nut not assuredly Crosby's.

[Patler]

As you specialize, you learn more and more about less and less, until you finally you know absolutely everything about nothing.

Wouldn't that be the same as knowing nothing about everything?

I don't know, or ... I do know I don't know, or ... I don't know if I do know.
Oh, heck....maybe! :lol:

[sharpe1027]

That is the very unusual aspect of this, and it would seem to indicate a consistent error. It would seem to indicate identical conditions on each miss, most likely, nut not assuredly Crosby's.

Yep, that was the main reason for my conclusion. Since I don't know the precise reason for the miss, I'd have to go with the most likely scenario.

[Smidgeon]

That is the very unusual aspect of this, and it would seem to indicate a consistent error. It would seem to indicate identical conditions on each miss, most likely, nut not assuredly Crosby's.

Yep, that was the main reason for my conclusion. Since I don't know the precise reason for the miss, I'd have to go with the most likely scenario.

Yeah, but is it the simplest explanation? Occam's razor and all.

[MJZiggy]

Doesn't make Slocum sound any better...

[Patler]

Doesn't make Slocum sound any better...

He actually pointed out his own failings, by stating that he and Crosby broke it down a month ago to find the problem. Unfortunately, they didn't fix it it if they found it.

[bobblehead]

Why wouldn't Crosby go to a kicking specialist? He really has one thing to do as part of a football team, so what better way to spend the offseason than by perfecting your craft?

If I were an NFL kicker, I'd probably see a kicking specialist every year, even if I were the best kicker in football. I mean, it's not like Tiger Woods (pre-infidelity-related-hiatus) didn't work extensively with a swing coach every year.

When it comes to swingin' nobody can teach Tiger a thing. :lol:

seems his wife can. Rumor is she knocked 2 of his teeth out with the club she "rescued" him with...before he ever left the house.

[sharpe1027]

Yeah, but is it the simplest explanation? Occam's razor and all.

Do you have any insight on the answer? It seems pretty simple to me.

[Bretsky]

Campen as a coach IMO is > Slocum

[Maxie the Taxi]

OK, these comments from Slocum are so contradictory that they make no sense at all:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/81373892.html

- Will not send Crosby to a kicking specialist, because it is his (Slocum's) job to handle it.
- Wrong advice can screw him up.
- About a month ago he and Crosby broke down and analyzed Crosby's technique.
- Encouraged Crosby to go out and talk to other kickers.

So he doesn't want him talking to a kicking specialist, but he should randomly consult other kickers? Wrong advice can screw him up, but instead of consulting a single specialist he should go out and talk to a number of other kickers? He won't defer to a specialist, because its his job to work with Crosby, but he will defer to advice from other kickers?

All this seems guaranteed to screw up Crosby more than he already is. Makes no sense to avoid a specialized coach with a proven track record in favor of random advice of random kickers.

I feel sorry for Crosby.

One of the things I love about you, Patler, is that you just can't stand the illogical!

[Noodle]

Sorry to bring this up again, but in the aftermath of the Saints win, I've seen a couple of stories about their kicker Hartley, and I hope Slocum has seen them too.

When Hartley was suspended for taking a stimulant, the Saints brought in old pro John Carney to handle the job. When Hartley came back, the Saints kept Careny on as a kicking coach. Carney helped Hartley work though a slump that included a key miss of a 37-yarder that cost the Saints a game.

Since imitation is the name of the game in the NFL, maybe Slocum will see the light and bring in a guy to work with Crosby.

[mraynrand]

Sorry to bring this up again, but in the aftermath of the Saints win, I've seen a couple of stories about their kicker Hartley, and I hope Slocum has seen them too.

When Hartley was suspended for taking a stimulant, the Saints brought in old pro John Carney to handle the job. When Hartley came back, the Saints kept Careny on as a kicking coach. Carney helped Hartley work though a slump that included a key miss of a 37-yarder that cost the Saints a game.

Since imitation is the name of the game in the NFL, maybe Slocum will see the light and bring in a guy to work with Crosby.

What stimulant do you suggest Crosby start taking?

[Lurker64]

Sorry to bring this up again, but in the aftermath of the Saints win, I've seen a couple of stories about their kicker Hartley, and I hope Slocum has seen them too.

When Hartley was suspended for taking a stimulant, the Saints brought in old pro John Carney to handle the job. When Hartley came back, the Saints kept Careny on as a kicking coach. Carney helped Hartley work though a slump that included a key miss of a 37-yarder that cost the Saints a game.

Since imitation is the name of the game in the NFL, maybe Slocum will see the light and bring in a guy to work with Crosby.

What stimulant do you suggest Crosby start taking?

Meth's a hell of a drug.

[red]

oh come on

don't bump a thread like this

here i went and got my hopes up thinking we finally canned the guy

what a kick in the nuts