Did We Get Suckered In GB v. Arz I?

[Noodle]

Don't think I've seen a thread on this -- if so, flame me and move on.

W showed too much of what our D can do in the final season game. In the re-match, Arz was certainly ready for Clay, who faced a bunch of chips and double teams. This was huge, as it shut him down early and allowed Warner to get in a groove.

No doubt there were other things we showed, such as a vulnerability to middle-of-the-field routes.

I'm thinking we should have gone ultra-vanilla, played a ton of base or prevent, and not rushed more than three alll day. We won a battle, but lost a war.

[hoosier]

At the time I thought McCarthy did the right thing by trying to maintain momentum. By contrast I have always cringed when I see the Colts under Tony Dungy or now Caldwell wrapping up their division in early October and then resting their best players for the last month of the season. They invariably come out flat and always seem to be at risk of getting ambushed in the divisional.

I know you're talking about scheming and not resting key players. But didn't McCarthy explicitly state that he held back a lot of what they had installed on offense? Would it have made any real difference if they had gone into "exhibition" mode on defense in the last game of the regular season? Arizona would still have had 16 weeks of film to look at in addition to their experience against Pittsburgh last year. I think that is really what gave Wisenhunt an advantage: seeing last year what it took to move the ball against a team that knew this scheme inside and out, and then being able to implement that knowledge against a team that does not yet know it like the back of their hand. Wait till next year.

[Smidgeon]

At the time I thought McCarthy did the right thing by trying to maintain momentum. By contrast I have always cringed when I see the Colts under Tony Dungy or now Caldwell wrapping up their division in early October and then resting their best players for the last month of the season. They invariably come out flat and always seem to be at risk of getting ambushed in the divisional.

I know you're talking about scheming and not resting key players. But didn't McCarthy explicitly state that he held back a lot of what they had installed on offense? Would it have made any real difference if they had gone into "exhibition" mode on defense in the last game of the regular season? Arizona would still have had 16 weeks of film to look at in addition to their experience against Pittsburgh last year. I think that is really what gave Wisenhunt an advantage: seeing last year what it took to move the ball against a team that knew this scheme inside and out, and then being able to implement that knowledge against a team that does not yet know it like the back of their hand. Wait till next year.

I guess the question becomes: Did Green Bay outplay expectations, and if they did, did that make people believe the sky was the limit this year because they already blew the expectations out of the water? I guess my point is that we, as fans, shouldn't be surprised at this exit via seeming defensive deficiencies. The GB defense is young, both in terms of age of the defenders (excepting CBs) and in terms of the age of the scheme in GB. It needs time to be tempered into a sharp steel.

[KYPack]

One move should have been to give CMII about a quarter of PT. In the quarter he played, I would have kept him to a very limited set of his moves. The Whiz definitely planned all his help and chips around containing CMII, who still had a very good game.

The Cards were pissed about that loss and the Card coaches fed off that. Was it a mistake for MM to play it the way he did?

I think so, to some extent.

[Smidgeon]

Was it a mistake for MM to play it the way he did?

I think so, to some extent.

Unfortunately, in this specific situation, that's something we can only know in retrospect.

[KYPack]

Was it a mistake for MM to play it the way he did?

I think so, to some extent.

Unfortunately, in this specific situation, that's something we can only know in retrospect.

Yeah.

I'm being a hypoctrite.

I feel you should play each game all out, so I agreed with MM's approach last week. After we lost, I disagree with it. I'm an inconsistent hypocrite. Doesn't that go with being a fan?

[Smidgeon]

Was it a mistake for MM to play it the way he did?

I think so, to some extent.

Unfortunately, in this specific situation, that's something we can only know in retrospect.

Yeah.

I'm being a hypoctrite.

I feel you should play each game all out, so I agreed with MM's approach last week. After we lost, I disagree with it. I'm an inconsistent hypocrite. Doesn't that go with being a fan?

Absolutely. Which is why it was unfortunate... ;)

[pbmax]

I don't think it took a game against the Packers to conclude from recent film:

1) Clay Matthews is the only terrifying pass rusher

2) The middle of the field with LBs in coverage were vulnerable.

That has been obvious for a while. What made the score 50 (sorry wist) were the additional mistakes they made in coverage and failing to tackle.

[wist43]

I don't think it took a game against the Packers to conclude from recent film:

1) Clay Matthews is the only terrifying pass rusher

2) The middle of the field with LBs in coverage were vulnerable.

That has been obvious for a while. What made the score 50 (sorry wist) were the additional mistakes they made in coverage and failing to tackle.

pb... what coverage???

Someone made the point that Jimmy Johnson said, "rush and pressure the bad qb's, and cover the good qb's"... even if you agree with that approach - Capers did neither.

You can't not blitz AND allow free releases like Capers did - and yes, that was Capers, not the players - especially to the slot receiver... good gravy, no pressure, and no coverage??? That was the game plan...

I haven't been able to go back and watch the mess, but I eventually will... but I surely do remember Breaston simply walking off the line, completely unmolested time, after time, after time...

In the season finale', Capers was fairly aggressive in both pressure and coverage... did he think he was going to "outsmart" Whisenhunt and Warner buy "cleverly" doing neither in the playoff game???

Capers lost this game virtually all by himself...

[Smidgeon]

I don't think it took a game against the Packers to conclude from recent film:

1) Clay Matthews is the only terrifying pass rusher

2) The middle of the field with LBs in coverage were vulnerable.

That has been obvious for a while. What made the score 50 (sorry wist) were the additional mistakes they made in coverage and failing to tackle.

pb... what coverage???

Someone made the point that Jimmy Johnson said, "rush and pressure the bad qb's, and cover the good qb's"... even if you agree with that approach - Capers did neither.

You can't not blitz AND allow free releases like Capers did - and yes, that was Capers, not the players - especially to the slot receiver... good gravy, no pressure, and no coverage??? That was the game plan...

I haven't been able to go back and watch the mess, but I eventually will... but I surely do remember Breaston simply walking off the line, completely unmolested time, after time, after time...

In the season finale', Capers was fairly aggressive in both pressure and coverage... did he think he was going to "outsmart" Whisenhunt and Warner buy "cleverly" doing neither in the playoff game???

Capers lost this game virtually all by himself...

Without execution, even the best plans will fail.

I'm not saying Caper's had the best plan, nor am I saying that the players were solely responsible for not executing. But I think it's fairly short-sighted for anyone to say that it's definitely one and not the other.

[Sparkey]

I don't think it took a game against the Packers to conclude from recent film:

1) Clay Matthews is the only terrifying pass rusher

2) The middle of the field with LBs in coverage were vulnerable.

That has been obvious for a while. What made the score 50 (sorry wist) were the additional mistakes they made in coverage and failing to tackle.

pb... what coverage???

Someone made the point that Jimmy Johnson said, "rush and pressure the bad qb's, and cover the good qb's"... even if you agree with that approach - Capers did neither.

You can't not blitz AND allow free releases like Capers did - and yes, that was Capers, not the players - especially to the slot receiver... good gravy, no pressure, and no coverage??? That was the game plan...

I haven't been able to go back and watch the mess, but I eventually will... but I surely do remember Breaston simply walking off the line, completely unmolested time, after time, after time...

In the season finale', Capers was fairly aggressive in both pressure and coverage... did he think he was going to "outsmart" Whisenhunt and Warner buy "cleverly" doing neither in the playoff game???

Capers lost this game virtually all by himself...

You are over reacting to the result of the game.

Re-watch the game. Watch the confusion by the db's & lb's on who to cover when AZ went into stack formations.

We had Bush and Ford playing huge minutes in the game. Neither one should be starting if we are healthy, but we weren't. If you watch the game again, try to find where Jenkins, Raji, Pickett or Jolly made any consistent plays.

Absolutely ZERO pressure up the middle, which allowed Warner to throw to the middle of the field.

Then watch how none of the linebackers and db's had a clue as to who they were supposed to cover on all the stack formations AZ ran.

Honestly, they were beat by a better team. Does that mean the sky is falling or that heads should roll ? Of course not. That would be over reacting to one game.

Now, if next season, they have the same issues against stack/spread formations, then there are issues about the coaching adjustments.

First year with AR they go 6-10.
Second year with Ar the go 11-5.

Things are fine. Add another year in the 3-4 and the issues that arose in the AZ game should be no where near as bad.

[Smidgeon]

I don't think it took a game against the Packers to conclude from recent film:

1) Clay Matthews is the only terrifying pass rusher

2) The middle of the field with LBs in coverage were vulnerable.

That has been obvious for a while. What made the score 50 (sorry wist) were the additional mistakes they made in coverage and failing to tackle.

pb... what coverage???

Someone made the point that Jimmy Johnson said, "rush and pressure the bad qb's, and cover the good qb's"... even if you agree with that approach - Capers did neither.

You can't not blitz AND allow free releases like Capers did - and yes, that was Capers, not the players - especially to the slot receiver... good gravy, no pressure, and no coverage??? That was the game plan...

I haven't been able to go back and watch the mess, but I eventually will... but I surely do remember Breaston simply walking off the line, completely unmolested time, after time, after time...

In the season finale', Capers was fairly aggressive in both pressure and coverage... did he think he was going to "outsmart" Whisenhunt and Warner buy "cleverly" doing neither in the playoff game???

Capers lost this game virtually all by himself...

You are over reacting to the result of the game.

Re-watch the game. Watch the confusion by the db's & lb's on who to cover when AZ went into stack formations.

We had Bush and Ford playing huge minutes in the game. Neither one should be starting if we are healthy, but we weren't. If you watch the game again, try to find where Jenkins, Raji, Pickett or Jolly made any consistent plays.

Absolutely ZERO pressure up the middle, which allowed Warner to throw to the middle of the field.

Then watch how none of the linebackers and db's had a clue as to who they were supposed to cover on all the stack formations AZ ran.

Honestly, they were beat by a better team. Does that mean the sky is falling or that heads should roll ? Of course not. That would be over reacting to one game.

Now, if next season, they have the same issues against stack/spread formations, then there are issues about the coaching adjustments.

First year with AR they go 6-10.
Second year with Ar the go 11-5.

Things are fine. Add another year in the 3-4 and the issues that arose in the AZ game should be no where near as bad.

Who's Ford?

[Sparkey]

Trevor Ford, Josh Bell, Brandon Underwood, Jarret Bush.

Any of the above should never touch the field at this time, however all did at one point or another due to injuries.

[pbmax]

I don't think it took a game against the Packers to conclude from recent film:

1) Clay Matthews is the only terrifying pass rusher

2) The middle of the field with LBs in coverage were vulnerable.

That has been obvious for a while. What made the score 50 (sorry wist) were the additional mistakes they made in coverage and failing to tackle.

pb... what coverage???

Someone made the point that Jimmy Johnson said, "rush and pressure the bad qb's, and cover the good qb's"... even if you agree with that approach - Capers did neither.

You can't not blitz AND allow free releases like Capers did - and yes, that was Capers, not the players - especially to the slot receiver... good gravy, no pressure, and no coverage??? That was the game plan...

I haven't been able to go back and watch the mess, but I eventually will... but I surely do remember Breaston simply walking off the line, completely unmolested time, after time, after time...

In the season finale', Capers was fairly aggressive in both pressure and coverage... did he think he was going to "outsmart" Whisenhunt and Warner buy "cleverly" doing neither in the playoff game???

Capers lost this game virtually all by himself...
How can you successfully press a slot receiver who gets two yard head start on the DB?

And on the one particular play I remember (and it was repeated obviously) was a motion toward the center where the LB and CB exchanged responsibilities. Again, hard to press the motion guy. In the play I reference, the guy in motion was Breaston and Barnett picked him up first.

[pbmax]

In the season finale', Capers was fairly aggressive in both pressure and coverage... did he think he was going to "outsmart" Whisenhunt and Warner buy "cleverly" doing neither in the playoff game???

Capers and his players say they ran much of the same schemes. But the run game was for more effective for the Cardinals the second time around. And Warner was in the game the whole time. I don't think he changed the plan, but they were in bad situations all game compared to the previous week.

[Smidgeon]

Trevor Ford, Josh Bell, Brandon Underwood, Jarret Bush.

Any of the above should never touch the field at this time, however all did at one point or another due to injuries.

Is Trevor Ford still on the team?

[pbmax]

KYP, Capers mentioned in the article to day that the other base pass defense option was four deep, compared to the 2 deep they ran. In 2 deep, the safeties are first providing help to the outside CBs on each half of the field. That much I get.

What is four deep? Capers mentions this as an option to help the interior, but how does 4 deep help the middle? Is it that there is deep help closer to the middle? If he is describing quarters coverage, how does this fail to assist the outside guys?

[Smidgeon]

Apparently Trevor Ford is still on the team, but per PFT was inactive for the game:

The Packers' inactives are wide receiver Patrick Williams, safety Derrick Martin, cornerback Trevor Ford, fullback Quinn Johnson, tackles Breno Giacomini and Allen Barbre, nose tackle Anthony Toribio and defensive end Mike Montgomery.

EDIT: I knew who you meant by "Ford", but I thought he was cut a while ago.

[KYPack]

KYP, Capers mentioned in the article to day that the other base pass defense option was four deep, compared to the 2 deep they ran. In 2 deep, the safeties are first providing help to the outside CBs on each half of the field. That much I get.

What is four deep? Capers mentions this as an option to help the interior, but how does 4 deep help the middle? Is it that there is deep help closer to the middle? If he is describing quarters coverage, how does this fail to assist the outside guys?

It's really like cover 6. The first option in vanilla cover 6 is two guys in quarters (strong side) and the other deep guy with half the field.

4 across the back is quarters. The old way was zone on top, man or match-up underneath. 95% of the time, 4 deep in quarters is cover 7.

It's deep help and gives you help on the outside and middle coverage also.

It's a "emergency" defense and if you have to go to that one, it means nobody is covering real good.

Sopmewhere after the game, I'm sure the coaches got around the beer and said things like "We sent in in everything we had, but the guys didn't cover for shit" or something like that.

[sheepshead]

I alluded to this before. I think Ken Whisenhut is a very good HC and he schooled MM big time. He out coached us in that 8 day span no question.

The 2 best coaches in the NFC will meet this weekend in N.O. and the winner will go on to the SB in my opinion. That might even be the AZ Cards.

[pbmax]

KYP, Capers mentioned in the article to day that the other base pass defense option was four deep, compared to the 2 deep they ran. In 2 deep, the safeties are first providing help to the outside CBs on each half of the field. That much I get.

What is four deep? Capers mentions this as an option to help the interior, but how does 4 deep help the middle? Is it that there is deep help closer to the middle? If he is describing quarters coverage, how does this fail to assist the outside guys?

It's really like cover 6. The first option in vanilla cover 6 is two guys in quarters (strong side) and the other deep guy with half the field.

4 across the back is quarters. The old way was zone on top, man or match-up underneath. 95% of the time, 4 deep in quarters is cover 7.

It's deep help and gives you help on the outside and middle coverage also.

It's a "emergency" defense and if you have to go to that one, it means nobody is covering real good.

Sopmewhere after the game, I'm sure the coaches got around the beer and said things like "We sent in in everything we had, but the guys didn't cover for shit" or something like that.
For Sheep, winning by 6 in OT is schooling someone?

KY, that is the definition I am aware of, but I fail to see how that supports the middle of the pass defense more, except deep. He must mean that those four in back are playing much closer to the LOS than normal. Because with two CBs up front plus one LB (or one CB and 2 LBs in nickel) there isn't a lot of coverage underneath.

[hoosier]

Despite what Wist seems to think, Capers was not actually out on the field covering people--or failing to cover. After reading the Capers interview it sounds to me like the major problem last Sunday was not the scheme but the execution. For whatever reason the Packers DBs and LBs just came out flat and didn't perform the way they were capable of. No doubt it didn't help matters that Warner was on fire and the GB offense couldn't protect the ball, so when they got down 17-0 they began pressing and trying for big plays instead of focusing on getting the receivers to the ground. It all begins to sound to me like a kind of "perfect storm" that led to GBs downfall. I really am wondering what would happen if that game were played 10 times. Something tells me the Packers would win at least 6 of them.

[wist43]

Yes, surely continuing on the course we were on was the way to go :roll:

If the DB's and LB's were collectively brain dead... simplify it, play more man, and say, "hey moron, just run with that guy there." Perhaps we might have only given up 38 pts instead of 51???

If the game plan isn't working, if the players aren't executing the game plan... the DC had better have a plan B to at least stop the bleeding to some degree. Saying, "Ah shucks, the players just didn't execute the game plan" doesn't cut it.

All one need do is look at the numbers... Capers should be embarrassed, and to shift blame and make excuses demonstrates a lack of leadership. Even if it is valid to say the players didn't execute the game plan... isn't that Capers fault as well???

Did General Lee blame his soldiers at Gettysburg???

[sheepshead]

KYP, Capers mentioned in the article to day that the other base pass defense option was four deep, compared to the 2 deep they ran. In 2 deep, the safeties are first providing help to the outside CBs on each half of the field. That much I get.

What is four deep? Capers mentions this as an option to help the interior, but how does 4 deep help the middle? Is it that there is deep help closer to the middle? If he is describing quarters coverage, how does this fail to assist the outside guys?

It's really like cover 6. The first option in vanilla cover 6 is two guys in quarters (strong side) and the other deep guy with half the field.

4 across the back is quarters. The old way was zone on top, man or match-up underneath. 95% of the time, 4 deep in quarters is cover 7.

It's deep help and gives you help on the outside and middle coverage also.

It's a "emergency" defense and if you have to go to that one, it means nobody is covering real good.

Sopmewhere after the game, I'm sure the coaches got around the beer and said things like "We sent in in everything we had, but the guys didn't cover for shit" or something like that.
For Sheep, winning by 6 in OT is schooling someone?

KY, that is the definition I am aware of, but I fail to see how that supports the middle of the pass defense more, except deep. He must mean that those four in back are playing much closer to the LOS than normal. Because with two CBs up front plus one LB (or one CB and 2 LBs in nickel) there isn't a lot of coverage underneath.


You dont think we have the better team?

[pbmax]

KYP, Capers mentioned in the article to day that the other base pass defense option was four deep, compared to the 2 deep they ran. In 2 deep, the safeties are first providing help to the outside CBs on each half of the field. That much I get.

What is four deep? Capers mentions this as an option to help the interior, but how does 4 deep help the middle? Is it that there is deep help closer to the middle? If he is describing quarters coverage, how does this fail to assist the outside guys?

It's really like cover 6. The first option in vanilla cover 6 is two guys in quarters (strong side) and the other deep guy with half the field.

4 across the back is quarters. The old way was zone on top, man or match-up underneath. 95% of the time, 4 deep in quarters is cover 7.

It's deep help and gives you help on the outside and middle coverage also.

It's a "emergency" defense and if you have to go to that one, it means nobody is covering real good.

Sopmewhere after the game, I'm sure the coaches got around the beer and said things like "We sent in in everything we had, but the guys didn't cover for shit" or something like that.
For Sheep, winning by 6 in OT is schooling someone?

KY, that is the definition I am aware of, but I fail to see how that supports the middle of the pass defense more, except deep. He must mean that those four in back are playing much closer to the LOS than normal. Because with two CBs up front plus one LB (or one CB and 2 LBs in nickel) there isn't a lot of coverage underneath.


You dont think we have the better team?
Yes. But not enough where a six point loss surprises me. The scale of the loss does, but if it had been 34-28, I would not have been shocked.

[sheepshead]

Ok, combine that with MM puffing out his chest in week 17. The over confidence I thought the team exhibited after the preseason blow out and I think KW has gotten the better of MM. I'm not a big MM fan these days.