Colledge - Worse than Whitticker?

[Patler]

Colledge had a horrendous season statistically, and may have worn out his welcome in GB. The Journal Sentinel reports that he allowed 40½ pressures, which was 10 more than the previous worst for a season by Will Whitticker in 2005. On top of that, he was the team leader in bad runs with 18½.

Worse than Will Whitticker, with 4 years experience? I would not be surprised if the Packers do little to retain him

[MJZiggy]

I had always been hoping for a light to come on there. Wanted Colledge to succeed, but enough already.

[Bretsky]

WOW; to be honest that was shocking to me. There was some DC love in here this year and while I've never been a fan of the guy I didn't think he had that crappy of a season. And he's commenting about not getting an extension

[denverYooper]

WOW; to be honest that was shocking to me. There was some DC love in here this year and while I've never been a fan of the guy I didn't think he had that crappy of a season. And he's commenting about not getting an extension

+1. I didn't think he had a great year by any stretch but I was surprised to hear it was so bad.

[Scott Campbell]

I met Korey Hall's mom at the airport on Monday. She and another woman (her sister) were flying their green and gold colors, so I started talking with them. They initially told me they had flown down from Boise to support the Boise State players on the team. When I said Daryn Colledge and Korey Hall, she seemed kind of excited that anyone would know who the backup fullback on the team was, and told me her son was Korey.

They were very nice and talked about how somber the locker room was after the game. I was kind of surprised they were let in there. It wouldn't surprise me at all if neither guy was on the team next year.

[denverYooper]

Colledge had a horrendous season statistically, and may have worn out his welcome in GB. The Journal Sentinel reports that he allowed 40½ pressures, which was 10 more than the previous worst for a season by Will Whitticker in 2005. On top of that, he was the team leader in bad runs with 18½.

Worse than Will Whitticker, with 4 years experience? I would not be surprised if the Packers do little to retain him

I was curious to see if his stint at LT messed up his numbers PFF (http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=T&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=0&numgames=1)has:
5 sacks, 5 hits, and 10 pressures came from 179 snaps in 3 games at LT
5 sacks, 5 hits, and 12 pressures from 912 snaps in 13 games at LG

Where does the JSO get their numbers? From FO Premium DB?

Looking at PFF numbers, I'd guess you'd add sacks + hits + pressures to get the totals (42). Anyhow, looking at that, half of his pressures came from a horrendous 3 game stint at LT.

[esoxx]

I don't see DC back next year. He played so poorly that at one point he was called out by the coaches and told he needed to play better or would sit. His game improved slighty after that. Not good enough.

[Lurker64]

Are we counting Colledge's disastrous stint at tackle against him in terms of pressures and bad runs? I'm not sure that's really fair to do, as it's clear that he shouldn't be playing outside. I mean, if you put Greg Jennings in at left tackle, he'll give up a lot of pressures too. Doesn't mean he's not worth keeping.

I would be interested in seeing a breakdown of Colledge's bad plays by position. If he's awful at T but good at LG, he's probably worth keeping. If he's uniformly mediocre, we probably won't make much of an effort to resign him.

[pbmax]

Yes, those numbers count his disastrous stint at LT against him. McGinn mentions that in his article. Its never been entirely clear where he gets the numbers, but he does crunch his own numbers from the TV tapes.

He also has numbers in this column that describe what the Packers have counted. Those would seem to be his main two sources.

He is not worse that Whitticker. But you would figure he could be replaced without much effort. I think Lang could do it today. But he may be needed for RT.

[Patler]

Geeze, half the people on here the last two years excused Colledge for playing out of position at guard, insisting that his best position was tackle. Now others want to excuse him because he did play tackle. Truth be told, he hasn't been very good at either position.

JS recognized the time at LT. O-linemen move around when injuries happen. Spitz has played three positions, and played two this season. Lang has been all over, too, I believe playing three positions this year. Colledge is a four year vet who just doesn't seem to have the toughness required to be a consistent O-lineman, regardless of where he plays.

[pbmax]

Geeze, half the people on here the last two years excused Colledge for playing out of position at guard, insisting that his best position was tackle.

JS recognized the time at LT. O-linemen move around when injuries happen. Spitz has played three positions, and played two this season. Lang has been all over, too, I believe playing three positions this year. Colledge is a four year vet who just doesn't seem to have the toughness required to be a consistent O-lineman, regardless of where he plays.
I thought he was slated for a big year, but I have not thought he was a tackle in quite some time. But even if you adjust those numbers for the stint at tackle and then prorate, its not a pretty picture. He was a mess at times.

[denverYooper]

Yes, those numbers count his disastrous stint at LT against him. McGinn mentions that in his article. Its never been entirely clear where he gets the numbers, but he does crunch his own numbers from the TV tapes.

He also has numbers in this column that describe what the Packers have counted. Those would seem to be his main two sources.

He is not worse that Whitticker. But you would figure he could be replaced without much effort. I think Lang could do it today. But he may be needed for RT.

There is also the possibility that they play Spitz at LG next year if he's healthy. Wells had a pretty good year at center and EDS looks to be a decent C/G backup.

[Joemailman]

Whatever the stats may be, Colledge is maddeningly inconsistent. In the next year or two, the Packers will likely have a youngster at the crucial LT position. You'd like for that guy, whoever it is, to be lined up next to a solid player he can have confidence in. That's not Colledge.

[Administrator]

Are we counting Colledge's disastrous stint at tackle against him in terms of pressures and bad runs? I'm not sure that's really fair to do, as it's clear that he shouldn't be playing outside. I mean, if you put Greg Jennings in at left tackle, he'll give up a lot of pressures too. Doesn't mean he's not worth keeping.

I would be interested in seeing a breakdown of Colledge's bad plays by position. If he's awful at T but good at LG, he's probably worth keeping. If he's uniformly mediocre, we probably won't make much of an effort to resign him.

I don't understand this logic. Did Greg Jennings play left tackle in college? I thought he was a WR. Colledge has experience both in college and in the pros at LT. He should have played better than he did.

[Bretsky]

Geeze, half the people on here the last two years excused Colledge for playing out of position at guard, insisting that his best position was tackle.

JS recognized the time at LT. O-linemen move around when injuries happen. Spitz has played three positions, and played two this season. Lang has been all over, too, I believe playing three positions this year. Colledge is a four year vet who just doesn't seem to have the toughness required to be a consistent O-lineman, regardless of where he plays.
I thought he was slated for a big year, but I have not thought he was a tackle in quite some time. But even if you adjust those numbers for the stint at tackle and then prorate, its not a pretty picture. He was a mess at times.


I seem to remember a ton of DC homerism before the season.....I thought there was a thread annointing him as possibly our best OL. Dude has a ton of ability but something just doesn't seem to be there

[mission]

those numbers are startling... including his stint at LT or not.

[Patler]

I seem to remember a ton of DC homerism before the season.....I thought there was a thread annointing him as possibly our best OL. Dude has a ton of ability but something just doesn't seem to be there

My complaint for some time has been that he is not tenacious. I see him getting beat without touching anyone, or lying on his back, or spinning around to watch his man take a bead on the QB.

Contrast that with a play I saw from Lang against Arizona. Lang got beaten cleanly on the snap, looked a half step slow, and I immediately thought Rodgers was going to get crushed. Lang stumbled backwards, off balance and all, but thrusting his arms backward against the DE's shoulder pads. It was all he could reach. He managed to slow the DE just a little, affected his balance just a little, changed his angle just a little, and Rodgers got the pass away as the DE got close. Colledge would have either tackled the DE and gotten a penalty, or walked back to help Rodgers to his feet.

Tauscher plays the same as Lang did on that one, never gives up on a play, no matter how little he seems to be doing. Often it is just enough to allow the play a chance. Colledge seems to give up on plays.

[Joemailman]

Geeze, half the people on here the last two years excused Colledge for playing out of position at guard, insisting that his best position was tackle.

JS recognized the time at LT. O-linemen move around when injuries happen. Spitz has played three positions, and played two this season. Lang has been all over, too, I believe playing three positions this year. Colledge is a four year vet who just doesn't seem to have the toughness required to be a consistent O-lineman, regardless of where he plays.
I thought he was slated for a big year, but I have not thought he was a tackle in quite some time. But even if you adjust those numbers for the stint at tackle and then prorate, its not a pretty picture. He was a mess at times.


I seem to remember a ton of DC homerism before the season.....I thought there was a thread annointing him as possibly our best OL. Dude has a ton of ability but something just doesn't seem to be there

I thought he played well last year and there was reason to be optimistic about this year. Obviously he's been a big disappointment. If the Packers bring him back, it has to be with the understanding that he has to fight for a position on the team. Of course, that has an impact on how much you're willing to pay him. I suspect he'll get a better offer somewhere else.

[pbmax]

Geeze, half the people on here the last two years excused Colledge for playing out of position at guard, insisting that his best position was tackle.

JS recognized the time at LT. O-linemen move around when injuries happen. Spitz has played three positions, and played two this season. Lang has been all over, too, I believe playing three positions this year. Colledge is a four year vet who just doesn't seem to have the toughness required to be a consistent O-lineman, regardless of where he plays.
I thought he was slated for a big year, but I have not thought he was a tackle in quite some time. But even if you adjust those numbers for the stint at tackle and then prorate, its not a pretty picture. He was a mess at times.


I seem to remember a ton of DC homerism before the season.....I thought there was a thread annointing him as possibly our best OL. Dude has a ton of ability but something just doesn't seem to be there
Best OL doesn't mean Left Tackle. But he played worse this year. Patler may be on to the reason why, but I couldn't say for sure.

I will say this, this OL played so bad this season (esp. early) that he still might be the best, as sad as that might be. Remember, McCarthy and Rodgers had to alter to the gameplan even after Tauscher came back.

[steve823]

So if Colledge is gone after this year does that mean we move Spitz to LG and Wells to C...or put Lang at LG and Spitz/Wells at C.

You never know with this O-line what's going to happen. The only people I am confident in for the future are Sitton and Lang. Let's hope we can get at least 1 solid o-lineman in the offseason.

[mmmdk]

It all becomes more clearly now...none of you posters went to Colledge!?...when the probowl votes were given by y'all :lol:

[The Leaper]

The guy is mediocre at best...and bad at worst. After this much time to develop, he will clearly never become a reliable starter.

Got to look elsewhere.

[Lurker64]

So if Colledge is gone after this year does that mean we move Spitz to LG and Wells to C...or put Lang at LG and Spitz/Wells at C.

You never know with this O-line what's going to happen. The only people I am confident in for the future are Sitton and Lang. Let's hope we can get at least 1 solid o-lineman in the offseason.

I would think next year could look like:

LT?/Spitz/Wells/Sitton/Lang.

[steve823]

So if Colledge is gone after this year does that mean we move Spitz to LG and Wells to C...or put Lang at LG and Spitz/Wells at C.

You never know with this O-line what's going to happen. The only people I am confident in for the future are Sitton and Lang. Let's hope we can get at least 1 solid o-lineman in the offseason.

I would think next year could look like:

LT?/Spitz/Wells/Sitton/Lang.

Let's hope so. Having Sitton and Lang on the right side would be a pretty dam good right side. Wells and Spitz aren't stars but aren't bad either so I'll deal with it. Let's hope we can get a good LT.

I would still love to see the Pack get a good Center in the draft since you can get a decent one with a later pick. Wells is just too small for C.

[KYPack]

There were a lot of guys bragging on Colledge last season. He played much better in '08 than this year.

Patler sums up a lot of his failures. One thing drives me crazy. He can make 95% of the plays that need to be made. He just doesn't ever have sustained, consistent effort. He can make some spectacular plays pulling and blocking downfield. Every once in awhile, he gets to the second level and tears ass up. He's a decent athlete, but maddeningly inconsistent.

He doesn't drive block with a lot of force. He should have the juice to drive block, but after all this time, I have to doubt his heart. He has another tendency that drives me nuts. If he gets beat in his pass pro, he does two awful things. 1. he gets flat footed. 2. He goes into a shell.

He added weight this season and now looks like an NFL guard, but the extra weight didn't add up to additional shove in his game. I don't know what they'll do with the boy, but Spitz has played LG sparingly and has never shined at the spot. We have gone far too long with all of TT's kiddie corp at OL. if they run Colledge off, which seems to be the consensus, Spitz could be the last guy left. I don't think anyone thinks he will ever be a star player.

We've waited a long time for very little to show for it.

[3irty1]

DC imo was our best OL-man in 2008. With Clifton and Tauscher both having down years. This year Sitton was our best OL-man.

[pbmax]

Casey Hampton was said to have a down year this year and there are calls to get his replacement ready. Even if that is an overreaction, he went through Wells like he was an orange traffic cone when he was in the game. I still think Spitz lands at center, but if Lang is indeed the RT, then there may be two holes in the left side.

[KYPack]

Casey Hampton was said to have a down year this year and there are calls to get his replacement ready. Even if that is an overreaction, he went through Wells like he was an orange traffic cone when he was in the game. I still think Spitz lands at center, but if Lang is indeed the RT, then there may be two holes in the left side.

What I hope we don't do is keep such a cavalier atitude about building/replacing OLineman. Under the Wolf organization, Ron would pull out all the stops to patch the line. When LT was a problem, he would burn #1 picks and bring in a whole raft of FA's. You have to, sometimes that won't even get you a decent OT.

Under TT/MM, they don't try much of anything. When Tausch was down & gone last off season, we stood pat for some reason. These guys just announced they would move a failed/back-up guard to OT. I was so under the influence of the Kool-aide, I bought it for a bit. Not this year, we need to make some moves. Sign a decent FA and a whole passel of street FA's. Use a high pick and get a top kid and some college FA's. We need support in that Oline, & not just bring in a herd of college kids, either.

[pbmax]

Casey Hampton was said to have a down year this year and there are calls to get his replacement ready. Even if that is an overreaction, he went through Wells like he was an orange traffic cone when he was in the game. I still think Spitz lands at center, but if Lang is indeed the RT, then there may be two holes in the left side.

What I hope we don't do is keep such a cavalier atitude about building/replacing OLineman. Under the Wolf organization, Ron would pull out all the stops to patch the line. When LT was a problem, he would burn #1 picks and bring in a whole raft of FA's. You have to, sometimes that won't even get you a decent OT.

Under TT/MM, they don't try much of anything. When Tausch was down & gone last off season, we stood pat for some reason. These guys just announced they would move a failed/back-up guard to OT. I was so under the influence of the Kool-aide, I bought it for a bit. Not this year, we need to make some moves. Sign a decent FA and a whole passel of street FA's. Use a high pick and get a top kid and some college FA's. We need support in that Oline, & not just bring in a herd of college kids, either.
I get the point, but its too much to say they don't do much of anything. We are just begging the question here. Funny that when folks are looking to argue for FA everyone has moved on to the New Orleans secondary and Bruce Wilkerson and conveniently forgotten the Bears and Eagles O line signings. No one remembers the failures when discussing FA.

They have drafted more O lineman than anything else under Thompson. At RT they had Barbre, a second (or third?) year guy in Giacomini and a draftee in Lang at the start of camp. The real question is how on earth was the decision made early to move Lang to guard after watching Barbre and Giacomini for weeks on end. That kind of lunacy should be fireable.

I would say that like Matthews, Thompson might need to target someone in the first two rounds that he knows can be successful right away. And get him.

[Patler]

In five drafts TT has brought in 10 O-linemen, one second round, one third, three fourths, four fifths and a seventh. Not the highest of picks, but most clustered in the middle of the draft. Ten players, with nothing of significance to show for it. I have to question the coaching performance in making them into NFL caliber players. (I know, I am like a broken record on this topic.)

[sharpe1027]

What I hope we don't do is keep such a cavalier atitude about building/replacing OLineman. Under the Wolf organization, Ron would pull out all the stops to patch the line. When LT was a problem, he would burn #1 picks and bring in a whole raft of FA's. You have to, sometimes that won't even get you a decent OT.

Under TT/MM, they don't try much of anything. When Tausch was down & gone last off season, we stood pat for some reason. These guys just announced they would move a failed/back-up guard to OT. I was so under the influence of the Kool-aide, I bought it for a bit. Not this year, we need to make some moves. Sign a decent FA and a whole passel of street FA's. Use a high pick and get a top kid and some college FA's. We need support in that Oline, & not just bring in a herd of college kids, either.

It is a problem, but the comparison to Wolf has a few holes. FA just isn't the same. Who was the big FA tackle last year...Pace? Thank god they didn't bother with that waste of money. Indeed, one of the few FA signings was an OL that started something like 8 games last year. He couldn't even make the team.

They had several guys slated for the position and only needed one of them to step up. Unfortunately it took them too long to realize that Lang was the right guy for the job, and by that time Tausch was healthy enough to sign.

It cost them games, but to say that they didn't try much of anything is a bit of a stretch.

[Joemailman]

The real question is how on earth was the decision made early to move Lang to guard after watching Barbre and Giacomini for weeks on end. That kind of lunacy should be fireable.


This and the decision to have Moll take the backup snaps at LT cost the Packers games early. If these decisions originated with MM, we'll just have to hope learns from his mistake. If these decisions were a matter of MM deferring to Campen, then we may see a different OL coach in 2010.

[Bretsky]

In five drafts TT has brought in 10 O-linemen, one second round, one third, three fourths, four fifths and a seventh. Not the highest of picks, but most clustered in the middle of the draft. Ten players, with nothing of significance to show for it. I have to question the coaching performance in making them into NFL caliber players. (I know, I am like a broken record on this topic.)


Maybe that's right and Campen is that bad....or maybe we just have the wrong guys.

[Bretsky]

Casey Hampton was said to have a down year this year and there are calls to get his replacement ready. Even if that is an overreaction, he went through Wells like he was an orange traffic cone when he was in the game. I still think Spitz lands at center, but if Lang is indeed the RT, then there may be two holes in the left side.

What I hope we don't do is keep such a cavalier atitude about building/replacing OLineman. Under the Wolf organization, Ron would pull out all the stops to patch the line. When LT was a problem, he would burn #1 picks and bring in a whole raft of FA's. You have to, sometimes that won't even get you a decent OT.

Under TT/MM, they don't try much of anything. When Tausch was down & gone last off season, we stood pat for some reason. These guys just announced they would move a failed/back-up guard to OT. I was so under the influence of the Kool-aide, I bought it for a bit. Not this year, we need to make some moves. Sign a decent FA and a whole passel of street FA's. Use a high pick and get a top kid and some college FA's. We need support in that Oline, & not just bring in a herd of college kids, either.


Good points..........DITTO for the secondary

[Bretsky]

Casey Hampton was said to have a down year this year and there are calls to get his replacement ready. Even if that is an overreaction, he went through Wells like he was an orange traffic cone when he was in the game. I still think Spitz lands at center, but if Lang is indeed the RT, then there may be two holes in the left side.

What I hope we don't do is keep such a cavalier atitude about building/replacing OLineman. Under the Wolf organization, Ron would pull out all the stops to patch the line. When LT was a problem, he would burn #1 picks and bring in a whole raft of FA's. You have to, sometimes that won't even get you a decent OT.

Under TT/MM, they don't try much of anything. When Tausch was down & gone last off season, we stood pat for some reason. These guys just announced they would move a failed/back-up guard to OT. I was so under the influence of the Kool-aide, I bought it for a bit. Not this year, we need to make some moves. Sign a decent FA and a whole passel of street FA's. Use a high pick and get a top kid and some college FA's. We need support in that Oline, & not just bring in a herd of college kids, either.
I get the point, but its too much to say they don't do much of anything. We are just begging the question here. Funny that when folks are looking to argue for FA everyone has moved on to the New Orleans secondary and Bruce Wilkerson and conveniently forgotten the Bears and Eagles O line signings. No one remembers the failures when discussing FA.

They have drafted more O lineman than anything else under Thompson. At RT they had Barbre, a second (or third?) year guy in Giacomini and a draftee in Lang at the start of camp. The real question is how on earth was the decision made early to move Lang to guard after watching Barbre and Giacomini for weeks on end. That kind of lunacy should be fireable.

I would say that like Matthews, Thompson might need to target someone in the first two rounds that he knows can be successful right away. And get him.


I'm not sure why I'd consider the Eagles a failure; some of their FA's were hit with injuries.

I've always said the key to free agency is not signing a bust. It's whether you decide to play or not

I'd rather swing and miss than keep looking at the called third strike

[pbmax]

Casey Hampton was said to have a down year this year and there are calls to get his replacement ready. Even if that is an overreaction, he went through Wells like he was an orange traffic cone when he was in the game. I still think Spitz lands at center, but if Lang is indeed the RT, then there may be two holes in the left side.

What I hope we don't do is keep such a cavalier atitude about building/replacing OLineman. Under the Wolf organization, Ron would pull out all the stops to patch the line. When LT was a problem, he would burn #1 picks and bring in a whole raft of FA's. You have to, sometimes that won't even get you a decent OT.

Under TT/MM, they don't try much of anything. When Tausch was down & gone last off season, we stood pat for some reason. These guys just announced they would move a failed/back-up guard to OT. I was so under the influence of the Kool-aide, I bought it for a bit. Not this year, we need to make some moves. Sign a decent FA and a whole passel of street FA's. Use a high pick and get a top kid and some college FA's. We need support in that Oline, & not just bring in a herd of college kids, either.
I get the point, but its too much to say they don't do much of anything. We are just begging the question here. Funny that when folks are looking to argue for FA everyone has moved on to the New Orleans secondary and Bruce Wilkerson and conveniently forgotten the Bears and Eagles O line signings. No one remembers the failures when discussing FA.

They have drafted more O lineman than anything else under Thompson. At RT they had Barbre, a second (or third?) year guy in Giacomini and a draftee in Lang at the start of camp. The real question is how on earth was the decision made early to move Lang to guard after watching Barbre and Giacomini for weeks on end. That kind of lunacy should be fireable.

I would say that like Matthews, Thompson might need to target someone in the first two rounds that he knows can be successful right away. And get him.


I'm not sure why I'd consider the Eagles a failure; some of their FA's were hit with injuries.

I've always said the key to free agency is not signing a bust. It's whether you decide to play or not

I'd rather swing and miss than keep looking at the called third strike
Free Agents don't get better and one of their signees came to the team with a knee injury and missed time. There is no way to avoid signing a bust in today's market. This year there be far fewer impact players in the pool if the CBA is not extended, which is not looking likely right now.

It would be ludicrous to ignore it, but there will be less help available.

[pbmax]

While the Packer line play was not acceptable in the first half of the season, the Eagles struggled in much the same way, against an opponent the Packers beat.


Les Bowen - Philly Daily News (http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/20091231_Les_Bowen__Eagles__offensive_line_faces_t est_without_Jamaal_Jackson.html)[/b]]The last time the Eagles played the Cowboys, back on Nov. 8 at the Linc, Donovan McNabb was picked off twice and never looked comfortable in the pocket.

The Birds' offensive line got shuffled when left tackle Jason Peters suffered a first-half ankle injury, then was reshuffled when he returned. It gave up four sacks and seemed overmatched, most notably when it couldn't pick up a key fourth-quarter first down from the Dallas 45 on second-, third- and fourth-and-1. (The spots on third and fourth down almost certainly were wrong, but let's not rehash that again.) The home team lost a very winnable game, 20-16.

The whole point is that there is nothing guaranteed. You need to hit on a player. And these days that player, especially in key positions, is less likely to be in FA.

[get louder at lambeau]

If you've ever watched "The Colledge Experience" on packers.com, you know Colledge's demeanor. He comes across as a good natured, wouldn't hurt a fly, even-keeled, kinda dorky type of person. Probably a good friend, but not a big mean monster who's gonna kick the other big mean monsters' asses. Not very intimidating, despite his size.

If he's playing so bad, get some more competition for him, but for fuck's sake don't cut ANYBODY if you don't have to. We need all the depth we can get on the OL. He'd make a great interior backup if nothing else.

[Joemailman]

I'm sure they won't cut Colledge. The question is how much do you want to pay to keep a guy who hasn't lived up to expectations.

[denverYooper]

I'm sure they won't cut Colledge. The question is how much do you want to pay to keep a guy who hasn't lived up to expectations.

Bingo. Tricky situation b/c he's in a contract year.

[Patler]

In five drafts TT has brought in 10 O-linemen, one second round, one third, three fourths, four fifths and a seventh. Not the highest of picks, but most clustered in the middle of the draft. Ten players, with nothing of significance to show for it. I have to question the coaching performance in making them into NFL caliber players. (I know, I am like a broken record on this topic.)


Maybe that's right and Campen is that bad....or maybe we just have the wrong guys.

Well maybe, but with 10 opportunities to develop a player, and not one shows any indication of improvement, leads me to believe there is something wrong with the instruction.

[pbmax]

In five drafts TT has brought in 10 O-linemen, one second round, one third, three fourths, four fifths and a seventh. Not the highest of picks, but most clustered in the middle of the draft. Ten players, with nothing of significance to show for it. I have to question the coaching performance in making them into NFL caliber players. (I know, I am like a broken record on this topic.)


Maybe that's right and Campen is that bad....or maybe we just have the wrong guys.

Well maybe, but with 10 opportunities to develop a player, and not one shows any indication of improvement, leads me to believe there is something wrong with the instruction.
I think you could credit him with Sitton. EDS and Lang played well, though EDS has not had to start yet. Could Campen have had an effect on those two?

[pbmax]

The real question is how on earth was the decision made early to move Lang to guard after watching Barbre and Giacomini for weeks on end. That kind of lunacy should be fireable.


This and the decision to have Moll take the backup snaps at LT cost the Packers games early. If these decisions originated with MM, we'll just have to hope learns from his mistake. If these decisions were a matter of MM deferring to Campen, then we may see a different OL coach in 2010.
Its good to have you back. Harlan would also be proud. He nearly went catatonic when they traded Moll. To be fair, I think Meredith and then Lang worked third string tackle.

Waldo was making noise that all the complaining about O Line musical chairs was missing a key element. Everyone, except perhaps you starting Left Tackle and maybe the starting center need to play two positions, if only to cover yourself during gamedays with inactive O Lineman.

This year they need to find a middle ground of no more than two positions.

[pbmax]

If you've ever watched "The Colledge Experience" on packers.com, you know Colledge's demeanor. He comes across as a good natured, wouldn't hurt a fly, even-keeled, kinda dorky type of person. Probably a good friend, but not a big mean monster who's gonna kick the other big mean monsters' asses. Not very intimidating, despite his size.

If he's playing so bad, get some more competition for him, but for fuck's sake don't cut ANYBODY if you don't have to. We need all the depth we can get on the OL. He'd make a great interior backup if nothing else.
If there is no CBA, then Colledge will be going nowhere. He will be playing for a less than top-shelf RFA tender. It'll be cheap for a guy with that much starting experience.

[Fritz]

Though it's cold comfort, it is comforting to think that it's Campen's lack of coaching ability rather than Thompson's inability to draft offensive linemen.

Thus, I hope Patler is correct and that further Campen is reassigned to assist the assistant special teams coach.

[KYPack]

Casey Hampton was said to have a down year this year and there are calls to get his replacement ready. Even if that is an overreaction, he went through Wells like he was an orange traffic cone when he was in the game. I still think Spitz lands at center, but if Lang is indeed the RT, then there may be two holes in the left side.

What I hope we don't do is keep such a cavalier atitude about building/replacing OLineman. Under the Wolf organization, Ron would pull out all the stops to patch the line. When LT was a problem, he would burn #1 picks and bring in a whole raft of FA's. You have to, sometimes that won't even get you a decent OT.

Under TT/MM, they don't try much of anything. When Tausch was down & gone last off season, we stood pat for some reason. These guys just announced they would move a failed/back-up guard to OT. I was so under the influence of the Kool-aide, I bought it for a bit. Not this year, we need to make some moves. Sign a decent FA and a whole passel of street FA's. Use a high pick and get a top kid and some college FA's. We need support in that Oline, & not just bring in a herd of college kids, either.
I get the point, but its too much to say they don't do much of anything. We are just begging the question here. Funny that when folks are looking to argue for FA everyone has moved on to the New Orleans secondary and Bruce Wilkerson and conveniently forgotten the Bears and Eagles O line signings. No one remembers the failures when discussing FA.

They have drafted more O lineman than anything else under Thompson. At RT they had Barbre, a second (or third?) year guy in Giacomini and a draftee in Lang at the start of camp. The real question is how on earth was the decision made early to move Lang to guard after watching Barbre and Giacomini for weeks on end. That kind of lunacy should be fireable.

I would say that like Matthews, Thompson might need to target someone in the first two rounds that he knows can be successful right away. And get him.

TT did not do enough. Another team that is a case in point is the Bengals. They rebuilt their entire offensive line in 1 off season. The only starter that was intact, at his same position from '08 to '09 was RG Bobby Williams. The other 3 starters were street free agents. They got a new LG (actually two LG's both of 'em better players than Colledge). A new C and left and right tackle. The right tackle was Dennis Roland, 6'9" 330 pound monster with great feet. The back-up at RT was number 1 pick Andre Smith. smith will be a superstar. We can't come up with a LG after waiting 4 years and the Bengals dug up 5 starters and two back-ups in a year. The Bengals did fill the LT spot with former LG Andrew Whitworth, a blue chip #1 pick from LSU in '06

5 of these guys were street free agents. While we were signing a waste like Duke Preston, the Bengals added 3 starters and a couple back-ups to their roster from the same talent resource. The Bengals organization is a shadow of ours. TT has to lose his obsession with Kids and "build from within" when it comes to OLineman.

OLineman hit their peak at 26 - 29 tears old. 22 yr old college kids are years away and may not pan out. We should bring in a bunch of mature UFA guys and come up with a LG out of it.

Incidently, the Bengals also drafted a OT with their #1 pick. That went to Andre Smith. Smith played sparingly, basically Dennis Roland (a Cowboy cast-off) beat him out. Roland played this year, but Smith will be a superstar in the future if he avoids injury.

TT has to stop trying to draft a line and go get a line. It can be done.

[get louder at lambeau]

If you've ever watched "The Colledge Experience" on packers.com, you know Colledge's demeanor. He comes across as a good natured, wouldn't hurt a fly, even-keeled, kinda dorky type of person. Probably a good friend, but not a big mean monster who's gonna kick the other big mean monsters' asses. Not very intimidating, despite his size.

If he's playing so bad, get some more competition for him, but for fuck's sake don't cut ANYBODY if you don't have to. We need all the depth we can get on the OL. He'd make a great interior backup if nothing else.
If there is no CBA, then Colledge will be going nowhere. He will be playing for a less than top-shelf RFA tender. It'll be cheap for a guy with that much starting experience.

Exactly why Colledge stays, starting or not. This one is not going to be solved by spending money on other teams' free agents. Anybody worth anything will be kept by their current team. Bring in some rookies, and see if any of the rookies or current backups can beat out an incumbent anywhere along the line next spring. Hopefully a left tackle falls into Ted's lap at #23.

[sharpe1027]

TT did not do enough. Another team that is a case in point is the Bengals. They rebuilt their entire offensive line in 1 off season. The only starter that was intact, at his same position from '08 to '09 was RG Bobby Williams. The other 3 starters were street free agents. They got a new LG (actually two LG's both of 'em better players than Colledge). A new C and left and right tackle. The right tackle was Dennis Roland, 6'9" 330 pound monster with great feet. The back-up at RT was number 1 pick Andre Smith. smith will be a superstar. We can't come up with a LG after waiting 4 years and the Bengals dug up 5 starters and two back-ups in a year. The Bengals did fill the LT spot with former LG Andrew Whitworth, a blue chip #1 pick from LSU in '06

5 of these guys were street free agents. While we were signing a waste like Duke Preston, the Bengals added 3 starters and a couple back-ups to their roster from the same talent resource. The Bengals organization is a shadow of ours. TT has to lose his obsession with Kids and "build from within" when it comes to OLineman.

OLineman hit their peak at 26 - 29 tears old. 22 yr old college kids are years away and may not pan out. We should bring in a bunch of mature UFA guys and come up with a LG out of it.

Incidently, the Bengals also drafted a OT with their #1 pick. That went to Andre Smith. Smith played sparingly, basically Dennis Roland (a Cowboy cast-off) beat him out. Roland played this year, but Smith will be a superstar in the future if he avoids injury.

TT has to stop trying to draft a line and go get a line. It can be done.

Good points. You do realize that you chose the extreme end of the spectrum of successes. The Bengals OL is talked about so much because, frankly, their success is rather outstanding, and certainly not the rule. Can it be done, yes, but none of the other 31 teams had as much success as the Bengals...

[Lurker64]

If there is no CBA, then Colledge will be going nowhere. He will be playing for a less than top-shelf RFA tender. It'll be cheap for a guy with that much starting experience.

Yeah, for a tender of just over 1 million dollars, the Packers will maintain right of first refusal and would get a second round draft choice from another team if Colledge signs elsewhere. That's dirt cheap, there's no way that they don't tender him.

[Bretsky]

Casey Hampton was said to have a down year this year and there are calls to get his replacement ready. Even if that is an overreaction, he went through Wells like he was an orange traffic cone when he was in the game. I still think Spitz lands at center, but if Lang is indeed the RT, then there may be two holes in the left side.

What I hope we don't do is keep such a cavalier atitude about building/replacing OLineman. Under the Wolf organization, Ron would pull out all the stops to patch the line. When LT was a problem, he would burn #1 picks and bring in a whole raft of FA's. You have to, sometimes that won't even get you a decent OT.

Under TT/MM, they don't try much of anything. When Tausch was down & gone last off season, we stood pat for some reason. These guys just announced they would move a failed/back-up guard to OT. I was so under the influence of the Kool-aide, I bought it for a bit. Not this year, we need to make some moves. Sign a decent FA and a whole passel of street FA's. Use a high pick and get a top kid and some college FA's. We need support in that Oline, & not just bring in a herd of college kids, either.
I get the point, but its too much to say they don't do much of anything. We are just begging the question here. Funny that when folks are looking to argue for FA everyone has moved on to the New Orleans secondary and Bruce Wilkerson and conveniently forgotten the Bears and Eagles O line signings. No one remembers the failures when discussing FA.

They have drafted more O lineman than anything else under Thompson. At RT they had Barbre, a second (or third?) year guy in Giacomini and a draftee in Lang at the start of camp. The real question is how on earth was the decision made early to move Lang to guard after watching Barbre and Giacomini for weeks on end. That kind of lunacy should be fireable.

I would say that like Matthews, Thompson might need to target someone in the first two rounds that he knows can be successful right away. And get him.

TT did not do enough. Another team that is a case in point is the Bengals. They rebuilt their entire offensive line in 1 off season. The only starter that was intact, at his same position from '08 to '09 was RG Bobby Williams. The other 3 starters were street free agents. They got a new LG (actually two LG's both of 'em better players than Colledge). A new C and left and right tackle. The right tackle was Dennis Roland, 6'9" 330 pound monster with great feet. The back-up at RT was number 1 pick Andre Smith. smith will be a superstar. We can't come up with a LG after waiting 4 years and the Bengals dug up 5 starters and two back-ups in a year. The Bengals did fill the LT spot with former LG Andrew Whitworth, a blue chip #1 pick from LSU in '06

5 of these guys were street free agents. While we were signing a waste like Duke Preston, the Bengals added 3 starters and a couple back-ups to their roster from the same talent resource. The Bengals organization is a shadow of ours. TT has to lose his obsession with Kids and "build from within" when it comes to OLineman.

OLineman hit their peak at 26 - 29 tears old. 22 yr old college kids are years away and may not pan out. We should bring in a bunch of mature UFA guys and come up with a LG out of it.

Incidently, the Bengals also drafted a OT with their #1 pick. That went to Andre Smith. Smith played sparingly, basically Dennis Roland (a Cowboy cast-off) beat him out. Roland played this year, but Smith will be a superstar in the future if he avoids injury.

TT has to stop trying to draft a line and go get a line. It can be done.


GREAT POST


There are successes and failures in free agency; I get a kick of of those who say....well who should we have signed ? Every year there are players out there who could help.

The key to free agency, if you are going to play, is hitting on the right ones

I'd rather go down swinging than looking.




SUBPOST: I am fully aware TT did a great job in free agency in year one so it is possibly that he will get the bat out again; but I'm not longer going to hang my hat on what he did in year one of his reign.

[pbmax]

TT did not do enough. Another team that is a case in point is the Bengals. They rebuilt their entire offensive line in 1 off season. The only starter that was intact, at his same position from '08 to '09 was RG Bobby Williams. The other 3 starters were street free agents. They got a new LG (actually two LG's both of 'em better players than Colledge). A new C and left and right tackle. The right tackle was Dennis Roland, 6'9" 330 pound monster with great feet. The back-up at RT was number 1 pick Andre Smith. smith will be a superstar. We can't come up with a LG after waiting 4 years and the Bengals dug up 5 starters and two back-ups in a year. The Bengals did fill the LT spot with former LG Andrew Whitworth, a blue chip #1 pick from LSU in '06

5 of these guys were street free agents. While we were signing a waste like Duke Preston, the Bengals added 3 starters and a couple back-ups to their roster from the same talent resource. The Bengals organization is a shadow of ours. TT has to lose his obsession with Kids and "build from within" when it comes to OLineman.

OLineman hit their peak at 26 - 29 tears old. 22 yr old college kids are years away and may not pan out. We should bring in a bunch of mature UFA guys and come up with a LG out of it.

Incidently, the Bengals also drafted a OT with their #1 pick. That went to Andre Smith. Smith played sparingly, basically Dennis Roland (a Cowboy cast-off) beat him out. Roland played this year, but Smith will be a superstar in the future if he avoids injury.

TT has to stop trying to draft a line and go get a line. It can be done.
I have only seen the Bengals twice outside of the Packers game (Vikes and half of each end of season game against the Jets). Are they that much better as a unit than their Packer counterparts with Tauscher? They seemed to run well, but how was the protection?

Both teams went 1 and done in the playoffs. And the Packer offense seems far much potent.

[Patler]

I think you could credit him with Sitton. EDS and Lang played well, though EDS has not had to start yet. Could Campen have had an effect on those two?

No credit for Sitton or Lang until they become better than they were when they arrived. Sitton probably would have started last year, if he hadn't gotten injured. They had him tabbed as a possible starter from the beginning of camp. If he develops into a Pro-Bowl caliber player, then I will credit the coaches with developing him. Until then, he came in as a good player and plays as a good player.

If they make Dietrich-Smith into a starter, I will give them credit on that one.

[Bretsky]

I think you could credit him with Sitton. EDS and Lang played well, though EDS has not had to start yet. Could Campen have had an effect on those two?

No credit for Sitton or Lang until they become better than they were when they arrived. Sitton probably would have started last year, if he hadn't gotten injured. They had him tabbed as a possible starter from the beginning of camp. If he develops into a Pro-Bowl caliber player, then I will credit the coaches with developing him. Until then, he came in as a good player and plays as a good player.

If they make Dietrich-Smith into a starter, I will give them credit on that one.


Well if we can't count them as improving then your "10" is a bit off as well :lol:

What about Wells; he seems to have improved some and is about as much as we could expect from a 6th/7th round draft pick.

[KYPack]

TT did not do enough. Another team that is a case in point is the Bengals. They rebuilt their entire offensive line in 1 off season. The only starter that was intact, at his same position from '08 to '09 was RG Bobby Williams. The other 3 starters were street free agents. They got a new LG (actually two LG's both of 'em better players than Colledge). A new C and left and right tackle. The right tackle was Dennis Roland, 6'9" 330 pound monster with great feet. The back-up at RT was number 1 pick Andre Smith. smith will be a superstar. We can't come up with a LG after waiting 4 years and the Bengals dug up 5 starters and two back-ups in a year. The Bengals did fill the LT spot with former LG Andrew Whitworth, a blue chip #1 pick from LSU in '06

5 of these guys were street free agents. While we were signing a waste like Duke Preston, the Bengals added 3 starters and a couple back-ups to their roster from the same talent resource. The Bengals organization is a shadow of ours. TT has to lose his obsession with Kids and "build from within" when it comes to OLineman.

OLineman hit their peak at 26 - 29 tears old. 22 yr old college kids are years away and may not pan out. We should bring in a bunch of mature UFA guys and come up with a LG out of it.

Incidently, the Bengals also drafted a OT with their #1 pick. That went to Andre Smith. Smith played sparingly, basically Dennis Roland (a Cowboy cast-off) beat him out. Roland played this year, but Smith will be a superstar in the future if he avoids injury.

TT has to stop trying to draft a line and go get a line. It can be done.
I have only seen the Bengals twice outside of the Packers game (Vikes and half of each end of season game against the Jets). Are they that much better as a unit than their Packer counterparts with Tauscher? They seemed to run well, but how was the protection?

Both teams went 1 and done in the playoffs. And the Packer offense seems far much potent.

Well, yer right.

The Bengals pass pro like they've got 5 guards. LT Whitworth is a hoss, but speed rushers give him fits. RT's Roland and Smith have trouble with the same kind of cat. Even with our 40 something sacks, we pass pro better with our old boy tackles. But, of course the Bengals will have an experienced Whitworth and Smith at the T spots when we are breaking our new guys in (at some point)

Where the Bengals really waxed our ass is at LG. Both Evan Mathis and Nate Livings are superior to the erratic Colledge at LG. To me, we should have signed guys like them back in '06 and built from there. This waiting around 3 and 4 years for college boy OLineman to develop is for the birds.

[pbmax]

TT did not do enough. Another team that is a case in point is the Bengals. They rebuilt their entire offensive line in 1 off season. The only starter that was intact, at his same position from '08 to '09 was RG Bobby Williams. The other 3 starters were street free agents. They got a new LG (actually two LG's both of 'em better players than Colledge). A new C and left and right tackle. The right tackle was Dennis Roland, 6'9" 330 pound monster with great feet. The back-up at RT was number 1 pick Andre Smith. smith will be a superstar. We can't come up with a LG after waiting 4 years and the Bengals dug up 5 starters and two back-ups in a year. The Bengals did fill the LT spot with former LG Andrew Whitworth, a blue chip #1 pick from LSU in '06

5 of these guys were street free agents. While we were signing a waste like Duke Preston, the Bengals added 3 starters and a couple back-ups to their roster from the same talent resource. The Bengals organization is a shadow of ours. TT has to lose his obsession with Kids and "build from within" when it comes to OLineman.

OLineman hit their peak at 26 - 29 tears old. 22 yr old college kids are years away and may not pan out. We should bring in a bunch of mature UFA guys and come up with a LG out of it.

Incidently, the Bengals also drafted a OT with their #1 pick. That went to Andre Smith. Smith played sparingly, basically Dennis Roland (a Cowboy cast-off) beat him out. Roland played this year, but Smith will be a superstar in the future if he avoids injury.

TT has to stop trying to draft a line and go get a line. It can be done.
I have only seen the Bengals twice outside of the Packers game (Vikes and half of each end of season game against the Jets). Are they that much better as a unit than their Packer counterparts with Tauscher? They seemed to run well, but how was the protection?

Both teams went 1 and done in the playoffs. And the Packer offense seems far much potent.

Well, yer right.

The Bengals pass pro like they've got 5 guards. LT Whitworth is a hoss, but speed rushers give him fits. RT's Roland and Smith have trouble with the same kind of cat. Even with our 40 something sacks, we pass pro better with our old boy tackles. But, of course the Bengals will have an experienced Whitworth and Smith at the T spots when we are breaking our new guys in (at some point)

Where the Bengals really waxed our ass is at LG. Both Evan Mathis and Nate Livings are superior to the erratic Colledge at LG. To me, we should have signed guys like them back in '06 and built from there. This waiting around 3 and 4 years for college boy OLineman to develop is for the birds.
Makes sense, as does the LG comparisons. In fact, while I would love Lang to come in and win RT, I could easily see them devoting him to LG to solve the enigma that is Colledge.

In that case I would expect Clifton to get two years to come back and then the hunt for tackle candidates to commence forthwith.

[Patler]

Casey Hampton was said to have a down year this year and there are calls to get his replacement ready. Even if that is an overreaction, he went through Wells like he was an orange traffic cone when he was in the game. I still think Spitz lands at center, but if Lang is indeed the RT, then there may be two holes in the left side.

What I hope we don't do is keep such a cavalier atitude about building/replacing OLineman. Under the Wolf organization, Ron would pull out all the stops to patch the line. When LT was a problem, he would burn #1 picks and bring in a whole raft of FA's. You have to, sometimes that won't even get you a decent OT.

Under TT/MM, they don't try much of anything. When Tausch was down & gone last off season, we stood pat for some reason. These guys just announced they would move a failed/back-up guard to OT. I was so under the influence of the Kool-aide, I bought it for a bit. Not this year, we need to make some moves. Sign a decent FA and a whole passel of street FA's. Use a high pick and get a top kid and some college FA's. We need support in that Oline, & not just bring in a herd of college kids, either.
I get the point, but its too much to say they don't do much of anything. We are just begging the question here. Funny that when folks are looking to argue for FA everyone has moved on to the New Orleans secondary and Bruce Wilkerson and conveniently forgotten the Bears and Eagles O line signings. No one remembers the failures when discussing FA.

They have drafted more O lineman than anything else under Thompson. At RT they had Barbre, a second (or third?) year guy in Giacomini and a draftee in Lang at the start of camp. The real question is how on earth was the decision made early to move Lang to guard after watching Barbre and Giacomini for weeks on end. That kind of lunacy should be fireable.

I would say that like Matthews, Thompson might need to target someone in the first two rounds that he knows can be successful right away. And get him.

TT did not do enough. Another team that is a case in point is the Bengals. They rebuilt their entire offensive line in 1 off season. The only starter that was intact, at his same position from '08 to '09 was RG Bobby Williams. The other 3 starters were street free agents. They got a new LG (actually two LG's both of 'em better players than Colledge). A new C and left and right tackle. The right tackle was Dennis Roland, 6'9" 330 pound monster with great feet. The back-up at RT was number 1 pick Andre Smith. smith will be a superstar. We can't come up with a LG after waiting 4 years and the Bengals dug up 5 starters and two back-ups in a year. The Bengals did fill the LT spot with former LG Andrew Whitworth, a blue chip #1 pick from LSU in '06

5 of these guys were street free agents. While we were signing a waste like Duke Preston, the Bengals added 3 starters and a couple back-ups to their roster from the same talent resource. The Bengals organization is a shadow of ours. TT has to lose his obsession with Kids and "build from within" when it comes to OLineman.

OLineman hit their peak at 26 - 29 tears old. 22 yr old college kids are years away and may not pan out. We should bring in a bunch of mature UFA guys and come up with a LG out of it.

Incidently, the Bengals also drafted a OT with their #1 pick. That went to Andre Smith. Smith played sparingly, basically Dennis Roland (a Cowboy cast-off) beat him out. Roland played this year, but Smith will be a superstar in the future if he avoids injury.

TT has to stop trying to draft a line and go get a line. It can be done.

GREAT POST



The Bengals also have a very highly regarded O-line coach, who has been there forever, even as head coaches changed. He has been successful with different groups of players, seemingly getting the best out of them, regardless of who he has, even in years when injuries decimated his starters. He has taken rejects of one sort or another from other teams and made them into a competent line. His bio:



Paul Alexander is in his 16th season on the Bengals coaching staff. It’s his 15th straight season as offensive line coach, and Alexander is also the team’s assistant head coach, promoted to that position in 2003 when Marvin Lewis took over as head coach.

"It has been important to me to have Paul as an advisor," said Lewis. "When I first came here, his knowledge of our team gave me a source for some very important direction. Since then, he has helped me in a lot of areas off and on the field. And as the record shows, he has continued to do an excellent job with our line."

Twice during the past four years, the Bengals have set new franchise records for fewest sacks allowed. Opponents managed only 17 sacks in 2007, easily topping the record low of 21 that had been established just two years before, during the team’s 2005 AFC North title season.

Last season was a tough one overall for the Cincinnati offense, which struggled to recover from the loss of Pro Bowl QB Carson Palmer for 12 games due to injury. But the club rallied to finish the season on a three-game win streak, and instrumental in the strong finish was Alexander’s coaching of a line that was markedly short of experience.

Due to injuries, the Bengals played their last six games with rookie Anthony Collins at LT and first-year player Nate Livings at LG. Collins had seen action for only a handful of plays when he was called on to start, and Livings had seen no game action at all. But the Bengals averaged 167 rushing yards over the final three games while allowing only three sacks. In the season finale against Kansas City, when Cincinnati rushed for a season-high 204 yards, another player with virtually no experience was in the starting lineup, as first-year player Dennis Roland was pressed into service due to injuries at the RT spot.

Alexander’s line has helped Palmer post offensive numbers that qualify him as one of the NFL’s elite quarterbacks. Over the four years 2004-07, Palmer became the fifth-fastest player in NFL history (59 games) to reach the 100 mark in TD passes. Palmer has also set, and in some cases has re-set, club season records for completions, passing yards, TD passes and passer rating.

And over 2004-06, RB Rudi Johnson’s 4221 rushing yards were the most by any Bengal in a three-season span.

On Oct. 22, 2000, Alexander’s Bengals line shared the glory of a 278-yard rushing game by RB Corey Dillon vs. Denver. It was an NFL record at the time, and it still stands third in league annals entering the 2009 season. The Bengals 407 total rushing yards in that game ranks as the fifth-highest single-game total in NFL history, and as the most rushing yards in 58 years. The last team to top it was the New York Giants, who gained 423 against Baltimore in 1950.

Alexander began his NFL coaching career in 1992 as tight ends coach of the N.Y. Jets, under head coach Bruce Coslet. When Coslet moved to Cincinnati as offensive coordinator in 1994, Alexander joined him, in the role of Bengals tight ends coach.

But Alexander’s first love in football was always the offensive line. He was afforded the chance to take over that job for the Bengals in 1995, and has held it ever since.

The Packers have guys who should be hitting their prime. Unfortunately, they don't look any different than when they were drafted. But heck, they tapped a guy to be the O-line coach who was coaching high school just three seasons earlier, and, more importantly, who hasn't shown success after being given the job. His audition should be done.

[Patler]

Well if we can't count them as improving then your "10" is a bit off as well :lol:

What about Wells; he seems to have improved some and is about as much as we could expect from a 6th/7th round draft pick.

My 10 are draft picks brought in by TT, given to Campen to make into players. Wells isn't one of those, but he became a starter under this regime. Has he improved? I think JSO rated him #4 in the NFC North, didn't they? GBPG gave him a "B-" for the year, so we will give him a wee bit of credit for that! :lol:

So is Campen sort of 1 for 11 on developing players? :lol: :lol:

Tom Lovat under Holmgren and Larry Beightol under Sherman had players who became better and better with experience. Lovat and Beightol took low round picks and made them into Pro-Bowl players and near Pro-Bowl players. They weathered the storms when injuries took out starters because the back-ups were ready to step in.

Campen can't even get the starters playing well until halfway through the seasons, and backups look lost if he is forced to play them. He has done nothing with Colledge, even though he has started for 4 years. Moll and Coston had lots of starts, but never became players. Spitz was steady and unspectacular as a first year starter, and was the same in 2008.

Meredith will be an interesting case study. All the reporters covering camp pegged him for practice squad at best, saying he was no where near ready to play in a game. Yet Buffalo gets him for a couple weeks, has to start him for injuries and he didn't seem to embarrass himself. Meredith commented in an interview after his start how well the staff prepared him and how confident he felt after being there just a short time. He didn't come right out and say it, but the implication was that he didn't get that in GB.

[pbmax]

I am not sure that Adam Timmerman and Mark Tauscher represent a triumph of coaching a late round pick to greatness rather than proof that players can overcome physical deficiencies (compared to higher round picks) and perform at a high level. Each started their first year, so the amount of coaching they got at the pro level was limited to offseason and 1 training camp.

I think the better success stories for those coaches were mid round picks that took time to develop into solid starters. Rivera, Flanagan, Andruzzi (for another team) and Wahle (I can never remember if he was 1st or second round in the supplemental). I might be missing some names, so feel free to add to the list.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

College had a poor season. No doubt. Ty never thought College was a LT..and doesn't hold his play at LT against him. Ty likes college, doesn't love him. Ty thinks we can win with him.

College was darn good in 08. Can he bounce back? Ty says yes.

KY....talking about College development is bs. College was bounced around early in his career. That retards development. And, your statements would look dumb after 08.

Talking about the Bengals is foolish. 1) As previously stated..that is the exception that proves the rule. 2) Their line wasn't any better than ours when we were healthy. 3) Much better line coach. 4) 1 and done..just like us. 5) The bengals, like the pack are a team. Looking at specific areas isn't right. How long have the bengals been trying to produce under Marvin. How long were they looking for a rb. Every team has weaknesses. To even talk about the Bengals and pointing to their success in building a line is hilarious..talk about seeing the tree and missing the forest. LOL

[KYPack]

Anything you say, Ty.

But I stick by my post.

I'm talking about that personnel group. The fact is, the Bengals developed a first rate Oline at light speed while we have dicked aroung for four years and haven't dug up many effective players with our approach. I don't think it is as sound as what some other teams do.

We aren't the only team to screw that up. Philly signed former Bengal RT Stacey Andrews for '09. The Bengali's had groomed him for a number of seasons and started him in '08. He couldn't hack the program and they went another way. Philly signed Andrews to a big contract and he didn't play a lick for them. He's the classic "looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" guy. Thank God we didn't get him. So other teams struggle.

What I'm saying is there are guys on the NFL scrap heap that can help you. We need to look at that talent stream as well as the kids we always get.

It's "Colledge", BTW.

KYPack, your reporter out here in the trees.

[Patler]

I am not sure that Adam Timmerman and Mark Tauscher represent a triumph of coaching a late round pick to greatness rather than proof that players can overcome physical deficiencies (compared to higher round picks) and perform at a high level. Each started their first year, so the amount of coaching they got at the pro level was limited to offseason and 1 training camp.

I think the better success stories for those coaches were mid round picks that took time to develop into solid starters. Rivera, Flanagan, Andruzzi (for another team) and Wahle (I can never remember if he was 1st or second round in the supplemental). I might be missing some names, so feel free to add to the list.

I don't think Timmerman started his first year. Tauscher started only because Dotson couldn't play after a few games. Both backup tackles were rookies that year, and both ended up starting shortly into the season because Dotson's back gave out and Wahle was awful. Going with two rookie tackles and a left guard just converted from tackle (Verba) was a good coaching job.

[Cleft Crusty]

I am not sure that Adam Timmerman and Mark Tauscher represent a triumph of coaching a late round pick to greatness rather than proof that players can overcome physical deficiencies (compared to higher round picks) and perform at a high level. Each started their first year, so the amount of coaching they got at the pro level was limited to offseason and 1 training camp.

I think the better success stories for those coaches were mid round picks that took time to develop into solid starters. Rivera, Flanagan, Andruzzi (for another team) and Wahle (I can never remember if he was 1st or second round in the supplemental). I might be missing some names, so feel free to add to the list.

I don't think Timmerman started his first year. Tauscher started only because Dotson couldn't play after a few games. Both backup tackles were rookies that year, and both ended up starting shortly into the season because Dotson's back gave out and Wahle was awful. Going with two rookie tackles and a left guard just converted from tackle (Verba) was a good coaching job.

Timmerman replaced Taylor in the wildcard game against Atlanta, due to a patellar tendon tear. Timmerman then started against San Fran and Dallas, and acquitted himself rather well.

I agree about the coaching in 2000. It was interesting how the Packers played to their strength in the running game, and it served them well, as they were able to destroy the Vikings' chances with a victory at Minnesota late in the season.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Anything you say, Ty.

But I stick by my post.

I'm talking about that personnel group. The fact is, the Bengals developed a first rate Oline at light speed while we have dicked aroung for four years and haven't dug up many effective players with our approach. I don't think it is as sound as what some other teams do.

We aren't the only team to screw that up. Philly signed former Bengal RT Stacey Andrews for '09. The Bengali's had groomed him for a number of seasons and started him in '08. He couldn't hack the program and they went another way. Philly signed Andrews to a big contract and he didn't play a lick for them. He's the classic "looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" guy. Thank God we didn't get him. So other teams struggle.

What I'm saying is there are guys on the NFL scrap heap that can help you. We need to look at that talent stream as well as the kids we always get.

It's "Colledge", BTW.

KYPack, your reporter out here in the trees.

Calling the bengals a first rate line is a bit a of stretch.

You still can't deny that it is the exception.

Our way has developed players. Wells, Spitz, Colledge, Sitton, and now Lang.

We tried FA with Klemm and that guy we brought in this year who didn't make the club. You are acting like we never tried.

We did try the scrap heap..and it was less successful than what we are doing.

They are on the scrap heap because they suck.

And, you can't deny that the Bengals have a better line coach.

[pbmax]

I am not sure that Adam Timmerman and Mark Tauscher represent a triumph of coaching a late round pick to greatness rather than proof that players can overcome physical deficiencies (compared to higher round picks) and perform at a high level. Each started their first year, so the amount of coaching they got at the pro level was limited to offseason and 1 training camp.

I think the better success stories for those coaches were mid round picks that took time to develop into solid starters. Rivera, Flanagan, Andruzzi (for another team) and Wahle (I can never remember if he was 1st or second round in the supplemental). I might be missing some names, so feel free to add to the list.

I don't think Timmerman started his first year. Tauscher started only because Dotson couldn't play after a few games. Both backup tackles were rookies that year, and both ended up starting shortly into the season because Dotson's back gave out and Wahle was awful. Going with two rookie tackles and a left guard just converted from tackle (Verba) was a good coaching job.
If we give credit to Lovat for Timmerman, Tauscher and Clifton starting and not being abysmal in their first year (and Clifton is a bit outside your original parameter of later round picks as was Wahle in my previous post), then we need to credit Campen for Sitton and Lang.

But I do not think its easy to separate coaching from talent and compatibility to the Packers' version of the pro game in those instances of almost immediate success.

I think a better case can be made for earlier O line coaches (esp. Lovat) with those mid-round guys that took years to develop. Wahle, Rivera, Flanagan (injury played a factor) and Andruzzi (Patriots). Two of those guys had the NFL-E to help them.

And its interesting to note that I am having difficulty remembering if Beightol developed any depth behind his tremendous starters during his time. The injury to Clifton put Flanagan at Tackle (a feat that by itself should almost put him in the Packers Hall of Fame) but Winters went in as center again. He did convert Wahle successfully to guard and helped implement the Power O running game*. Someone else can help us out here.

Do not get me wrong. I have my doubts about Campen and your arguments have swayed me. The failure to get Moll, Colledge, Barbre and Coston to amount to more is troubling. Even more troubling are the indecision about Colledge at Tackle and the ludicrous move of Lang away from RT when it was only Giacomini and Barbre there.

But I am also open to the argument that Campen has gotten exactly what was there. That Colledge is average despite better than average physical skill. That Coston and Barbre just don't and may never get it. That Spitz is maxed out and best at Center (a transition that should be to Campen's credit). And that Moll was never going to be more effective because he was a puffed up TE.

When given actual talent (Sitton and Lang) it was ready to start. Giacomini might be the next test as will finding Lang a permanent position.

[pbmax]

* From my previous post. Has anyone else noticed how the Power O run game has spread everywhere in the NFL? If I recall correctly, the Packers were using this system first this decade with Beightol/Rossley/Sherman. At the time, I remember a couple of offensive minded commentators stating that our running game in some respects was untraditional for the pros and more like a college team. I think, but am not sure, that the reference was to that run scheme.

There is nothing truly new in football, but apparently those coaches were ahead of the curve given how widely that running scheme has caught on. If I am out of my mind, please someone correct me.

[Patler]

If we give credit to Lovat for Timmerman, Tauscher and Clifton starting and not being abysmal in their first year (and Clifton is a bit outside your original parameter of later round picks as was Wahle in my previous post), then you need to credit Campen for Sitton and Lang.

But I do not think its easy to separate coaching from talent and compatibility to the Packers' version of the pro game in those instances of almost immediate success.

I think a better case can be made for earlier O line coaches (esp. Lovat) with those mid-round guys that took years to develop. Wahle, Rivera, Flanagan (injury played a factor) and Andruzzi (Patriots). Two of those guys had the NFL-E to help them.

And its interesting to note that I am having difficulty remembering if Beightol developed any depth behind his tremendous starters during his time. The injury to Clifton put Flanagan at Tackle (a feat that by itself should almost put him in the Packers Hall of Fame) but Winters went in as center again. He did convert Wahle successfully to guard and helped implement the Power O running game*. Someone else can help us out here.

Do not get me wrong. I have my doubts about Campen and your arguments have swayed me. The failure to get Moll, Colledge, Barbre and Coston to amount to more is troubling. Even more troubling are the indecision about Colledge at Tackle and the ludicrous move of Lang away from RT when it was only Giacomini and Barbre there.

But I am also open to the argument that Campen has gotten exactly what was there. That Colledge is average despite better than average physical skill. That Coston and Barbre just don't and may never get it. That Spitz is maxed out and best at Center (a transition that should be to Campen's credit). And that Moll was never going to be more effective because he was a puffed up TE.

When given actual talent (Sitton and Lang) it was ready to start. Giacomini might be the next test as will finding Lang a permanent position.

I probably haven't been clear enough in arguing two different things. So let me try to better explain my thoughts regarding two different situations .

First - coaches who take players and make them better each year for several years until they become very good, or even pro bowl players. Rivera is a good example of this. Even after he became a starter, he was a very weak link on the line. After his first year as a starter there was an article about whether the Packers could continue with their patience with him starting, or if they should look for veteran replacements to "win now". But Rivera got better. In fact, he got better and better each year for many years until he became a pro bowl player. Wahle is another example of a guy who developed over 4 years or so. I can look back at a lot of the guys thrust into the starting lineups who were not that good their first year, somewhat better their second, and usually turned a corner their third season. I can make that argument even as far back as Ron Hallstrom (for whoever was coaching back then). I think arguments can be made that Tauscher especially and maybe even Clifton to some extent showed significant improvement over their first couple years, getting to the point a few years ago when they rarely needed help and could be stuck out there and forgotten about.

Second - coaches who are given a real problem usually because of injuries, and are forced to patch together a line of rookies and castoffs, but still perform well. The Packers in 2000 are an example. They wanted Dotson at RT, but his back (I think it was) failed him after a couple games, and they had no choice but to go with Tauscher the rookie, Wahle was as bad at LT as Barbre was this year at RT, maybe even worse, so Clifton was put in after a few games. Verba had just been converted in training camp to guard from tackle. That was a lot of inexperience, yet they made it work.

With that said, I don't give a coach a lot of credit just because a first or second year player starts. Often it is due only to circumstances, or just to the ability the player came to camp with. I am more concerned with what they do with them. So far, I have not seen Campen make much if any difference in the play of the young players through their first 2, 3 or 4 years. I haven't seen him do anything notable with overall line performance, He made nothing of Coston, Moll, Barbre or Giacomini; I saw no dramatic change in Colledge or Spitz; and the jury is still out on Lang and Sitton as to whether they will be what they are or get even better. Many have said Sitton has pro-bowl potential. Will Campen get him there, or will Sitton just stay as he is? Further, Campen's lines have started the seasons quite poorly for three seasons, and seem to take half the season to find themselves. I have to consider coaching when I see that year after year.

In short, nothing changes under Campen. Contrast that with the improvement shown by runningbacks under Bennett, and the marvelous job he did patching together backfields with a new back seemingly every week in Sherman's last season.

Maybe you are right, and the 10 or so guys Campen has been given never would have amounted to much for anyone, but the shear numbers of them would suggest there should have been a few he could do something with.

The most telling might be what happens with Meredith. All the Packers reporters at the end of camp sang the same tune about him - that he was no where near ready to play, and at best would be a practice squad player. Yet Buffalo gets him, spends a little time with him, is forced to play him and seemed happy-enough with his performance. Meredith himself commented about the Buffalo coaches clarifying a lot for him in just a couple weeks. Why was he so ill-prepared in Green Bay? It will be interesting to see if he becomes a player or not.

[pbmax]

I will need to return to this later, but work calls. I am largely in agreement that long term development is the best measure. But the 2000 O line and Meredith will take some parsing. Good thread everyone.

[sharpe1027]

I considered presenting a counter argument in that the line fared pretty well this year after a really rough start; however, I think it is important to remember that the Packers, and MM specifically, made a number of changes to help compensate for the poor line play. IMO, those changes count as much or more than anything that Campen did.

[KYPack]

* From my previous post. Has anyone else noticed how the Power O run game has spread everywhere in the NFL? If I recall correctly, the Packers were using this system first this decade with Beightol/Rossley/Sherman. At the time, I remember a couple of offensive minded commentators stating that our running game in some respects was untraditional for the pros and more like a college team. I think, but am not sure, that the reference was to that run scheme.

There is nothing truly new in football, but apparently those coaches were ahead of the curve given how widely that running scheme has caught on. If I am out of my mind, please someone correct me.

Power O and Power Gap are two terms for the same thing. Most coaches use the term "Power Gap" to differentiate from one of the key plays in a power gap offense. The play "power O" is the old Ahman Green play Sherm ran forever. The G & C double team the NT to the inside. The tackle kicks out on the DT (or player in that gap). the left guard pulls and leads thru the gap, & Ahman runs for 12 yards, right? That's power 0 and it's a staple of the power gap running game.

Power Gap is the term for blocking a hole (gap). it's real old and was probably invented by an old Indian Chief or Walter Camp or somebody like that. "power" means a double team or multiple players hitting that area and opening up space for the back.

The term gap has replace hole as the word for the area you are targeting to block. As the 3-4 being the 7 men from you face came into vogue, the old term hole fell out of place. now the coaches refer to gaps and block their playes accordingly.

[Joemailman]

What's amazing to me is that the Packers just set a team record for points scored, and yet the only certainty on the OL is that Josh Sitton will be the RG. I could probably come up with 10-15 perfectly plausible scenarios for the starting OL lineup.

Possibililties per position:

LT: Clifton/Lang/Rookie
LG: Colledge/Lang/Spitz
C: Wells/Spitz
RG: Sitton
RT: Tauscher/Lang/Giaco/Rookie

[get louder at lambeau]

What's amazing to me is that the Packers just set a team record for points scored, and yet the only certainty on the OL is that Josh Sitton will be the RG. I could probably come up with 10-15 perfectly plausible scenarios for the starting OL lineup.

Possibililties per position:

LT: Clifton/Lang/Rookie
LG: Colledge/Lang/Spitz
C: Wells/Spitz
RG: Sitton
RT: Tauscher/Lang/Giaco/Rookie

The common denominator is Lang. And a rookie. One good rookie pick who can play right away, and we could have a very solid line next year.

[denverYooper]

Don't forget we're gonna get Joe Thomas!

Plus the Pats will let Mankins walk and we'll snap him up!

So I've got:

Thomas/Mankins/Wells/Sitton/Lang

[mission]

Don't forget we're gonna get Joe Thomas!

Plus the Pats will let Mankins walk and we'll snap him up!

So I've got:

Thomas/Mankins/Wells/Sitton/Lang

:bookingsuperbowltickets:

[pbmax]

Well, that was a fun week of work. :roll:

Back to the O Line. KYP, thanks for the explanation. Does Power Gap necessarily include the pulling guard?

As for O line coach Patler, I think I misread your post on Tauscher and Clifton and thought your were giving Beightol more credit for their rookie year than you are. So no disagreements here. Rookies who start their first year and play reasonably well are relying significantly on their own talent and to a smaller degree from coaching that is making things simple enough for them to execute well. In this case, the coach is responsible for giving enough information and getting out of the way I think.

One point about Rivera. In 1998, Rivera played Left Guard opposite Timmerman on the Right. I believe this is the year you reference that he struggled. After 98, he was at RG exclusively since Timmerman left. Its possible the side of the line made a difference to him. I know they liked his nasty streak on the side they ran to most often. It could be that runs to his side were a particular strength, opposed to pulling, cutting people off or reach blocking, or peeling back and preventing pursuit.

That is a challenge they will have with Lang. He could probably play 3 (RT, RG, LG) positions capably, and could be used in a pinch for a 4th (LT). If he is to excel, he needs to find a permanent home that matches his best qualities. The Barbre experiment is not encouraging in this respect.

As for progress, I think there has been progress for Spitz and Colledge (and Wells, but he was made de facto starter in MM's first year). 2006 was a rough year even for Favre and certainly the run game. 2007 was far stronger for the guards. I also think Favre's hair trigger release at this stage of his career helped mask deficiencies in the O line's protection. Rodgers, while learning, does not help as much. In fact my fear is that he will revert if his protection is not more solid soon.

Also to Campen's credit, this line, that early in Campen's regime struggled so much to run, ranked 8th in Football Outsiders Adjusted Line Yards (which is their best attempt to measure O Line effectiveness running the ball). Standing in stark contrast to some earlier years, they ranked 3rd in Power attempts (basic short yardage, goaline and QB sneaks) and 4th in stuffs (run plays that went nowhere [no first down] or lost yardage). I also think that Spitz transitioning to center should deserve some credit. Moll, Coston, Barbre and Giacomini are all disappointments so far, for themselves and for their coach's reputation.

As for Meredith, his comments after his Buffalo start, might simply be trying to say something positive and unobjectionable rather than reveal any truth about coaching. And he did not remain the starter for a team that lost one starter from the previous season and had a poor offense. Time will tell.

One other point. The O line couldn't pass block a lick for the first half of the season. But that was largely due to three reasons. Barbre, an injury to the Left Tackle and the effect both had on the QB. I mentioned that the people responsible for Barbre getting the job unchallenged by Lang should all be put in the stockade for an extended amount of time. I think the Head Coach and GM are responsible for there being no reliable Left Tackle backup on the roster, ready to play. Colledge was no longer the answer and they had let everyone else go. They had to move Lang, nearly cold, over there to stop the bleeding. That was a roster and a coaching error. So while the pass blocking is an issue for Campen (especially with Colledge at this point), he wasn't alone in screwing up.

So they ran the ball well this season, and on the whole, have done so since MM's second year. And we are left with very mixed results. A decent to good running game, indifferent pass blocking and occasional horrible play. But even with those mediocre grades, this team can run and score against very good defenses. What did the Colts get on the Ravens D at home on the turf? 20? Packers put 27 up, albeit not facing Ed Reed. Some of this is scheme and some of this is skill position players, but if the line was a true fire drill, that couldn't happen.

I don't think Campen has proven himself anything other than average at best. But I also think his GM has provided only one player as high as the second round and that player might have fit a running system that we are no longer running exclusively. If Waldo is to be believed, Colledge's shorter arms are causing him to overcompensate while pass blocking and get himself completely off balance and out of position. This might have been more apparent early if Favre had not been his QB. Should coaching be able to correct this? I don't know. But if my guess is correct, they have switched their priority on drafting O lineman since Jagodzinski left.

Finally, the GM has also not supplied a viable candidate for tackle on either side yet (I exclude Lang only because it would seem his best position might be Guard and we can't be sure about Tackle yet). It might be Giacomini, perhaps Barbre can overcome his problems with technique. But unlike Sitton, Lang, Tauscher, Clifton and Timmerman, neither of those guys strikes me as starting caliber. Its interesting that each of the long developing guys for Lovat and Beightol was a guard. All of their tackles showed they could play early. Thompson has not landed one of those yet.

It may be that the lack of progress through coaching has caused some bad decisions to be made about the roster while waiting for talent to develop. I agree that the lack of breakout performances lends credence to the fact that Campen has not been effective. But the front office has left them holes at tackle and I think that is causing errors to be made elsewhere.

[KYPack]

PB. Power running plays means a double team or multiple players hitting that area and opening up space for the back.

Double teams don't require a pulling guard. Some teams call the power O - power A for the A gap. The other blocks in a power series are the BOB and BOSS blocks. BOB blocks are a FB lead and blocking on the LB (Back On Backer). BOSS = Back on Strong Safety. These are pretty basic elements of a power gap offense. Power gap basically equals the blocking schemes we old moldies grew up watching the Lombardi Packers running.

I, too, share your concerns about last year's decision to merely plug Barbre into the RT position. Who in the hell knew if he could hack the program? it worked out by accident. Tausch obviously wanted to stay a Packer and came in to save our bacon. Very lucky for us, IMHO. We should have amassed more candidates for that job than just waiting to see if Barbre could do the job.

As far as Campen, he's Bob Sanders II in my book. I couldn't tell you if he's a good line coach or not. But I see better than I hear. I don't see guys developing at their interior spots like they do for other teams. Patler brought up Paul Alexander. That guy molded two LG's both better than Colledge in a season and a half for Cincy, both players off the NFL scrap heap. We don't look to that talent source since Klemm and Matt O'Dwyer bombed out on us 4 years ago. (I know about Duke Preston, etc) We don't aggressively pursue that kind of player. We have developed some good kids, but I don't think Lang can fill the 3 spots I see Packer Forum posters recommending he be moved to and start. Get more guys in here and let them fight it out with our developing kids.

If we don't sign Colledge and Spitz, the Pack will have grown two lineman in all these years (not counting Wells). That ain't getting it done.

[pbmax]

Then perhaps is was the pulling Guard that occasioned that comment from quite a long time ago that the Rossley/Beightol/Ahman running game resembled a college scheme in some plays. It also marked a departure from previous West Coast incarnations in that Green ran exclusively from an I formation, not split backs.

The year (98) that Holmgren nearly killed Dorsey Levens after his holdout (mostly kidding), he had to deal with a runner (Darick Holmes? Raymont Harris?) who operated better out of the I but Holmgren did not like losing the advantage of split backs. He also never had Favre in the shotgun either. So much has changed. I just see a lot of pro teams running the Power Gap with a pulling guard now. At the beginning, it seemed the Packers were the only ones to run it that way.

But I would suspect that the scrapheap LGs of the Bengals either were mistakes (previous team didn't know what they had) or they were asked to perform very basic work. That coach might be a miracle worker, or it could be that those two guys were able to do the limited amount they were asked to do very well. I could be wrong here. This isn't the first time the Packers have struggled to find a LG. The Bengals offense ran well this season, but it struggled to pass as the year went on. Someone got figured out.

There need not be much mystery about Colledge, other first and second round picks have failed to perform, and Colledge seems to fail mostly in his inability to be consistent. I have seen him play well, I have also seen him be a turnstile. There is not much doubt in my mind that had Lang not had to fill in at tackle, he would have been LG by mid-season.

And that brings me back to player acquisition and your point. If there were more viable bodies at tackle (not projects waiting to be developed - yes, I am sounding like RG here) then the Guard question might not be such a question. Instead its like playing dime defense with Harris hurt. The fifth, sixth and seventh lineman you play off the depth chart aren't as good. Colledge probably deserves to be replaced, but the guy who should have replaced him was busy at tackle.

If Colledge was dumped (unlikely given the CBA) then we might get a better read on him and his coach. As it is, the offense performs well enough with him (especially running) that I am willing to entertain the notion that while he sometimes played like the worst guy on the line, he probably starts for a reasonable number of teams.

[KYPack]

The Bengals Oline had pass pro issues from the tackle spot. The interior line protected Palmer pretty well. Alexander developed another interior guy who started all year. C Kyle Cook was a Viking cut and he was a really capable C. The fact that this goofy organization came up with all these capable OLineman in a year and we haven't done much in 4 still burns my butt.

I'm sure some of this was luck, but Christ, why can't we at least be in position to get lucky? Lang was a savior this season. Another thing that gripes me is the loss of Meredith. Waldo sent me pm with his list of the top ten OT's in last year's draft. He had Meredith in there. We lost a decent kid like that in order to keep the 3 headed FB spot? Why?

[Fritz]

Well, wait a second now. Earlier, much earlier, this season, one of you venerables in this thread suggested I overreacted to Meredith's loss to the Bills. I was unhappy as I saw him as the guy you need to develop and get ready for next year to take over from Clifton. I think I wanted him on the 53 man roster at someone else's expense, but one of you pointed out to me that Meredith was only a fifth rounder and you can get one of those fifth round talented-but-uncertain guys every year.

My argument was that yes, Meredith would be a waste of a valuable roster spot this year, but that this would pay off in the upcoming year. But someone out there suggested that as a fifth round pick made on "potential" those guys were easy come easy go.

Anybody remember that or care to take responsibility and explain? I'd really like to be right on this one. It's been a while.

[KYPack]

Well, wait a second now. Earlier, much earlier, this season, one of you venerables in this thread suggested I overreacted to Meredith's loss to the Bills. I was unhappy as I saw him as the guy you need to develop and get ready for next year to take over from Clifton. I think I wanted him on the 53 man roster at someone else's expense, but one of you pointed out to me that Meredith was only a fifth rounder and you can get one of those fifth round talented-but-uncertain guys every year.

My argument was that yes, Meredith would be a waste of a valuable roster spot this year, but that this would pay off in the upcoming year. But someone out there suggested that as a fifth round pick made on "potential" those guys were easy come easy go.

Anybody remember that or care to take responsibility and explain? I'd really like to be right on this one. It's been a while.

Sure, bud, you can be right. Twasn't me, but I was ragged. We lose the other half of the NE deal. 3 high picks for a 1st and a 5th. Meredith was that fifth rounder. Why did we lose him? to keep the triple FB threat intact? I didn't dig it then and don't like it now.

Thank God the 1 was CMIII. That kid is unreal. 5 Rooks made the pro Bowl this year and he was one of 'em. He's a ruby, the real thing in person.

[Fritz]

Okay, KY, we'll blame someone else then. Wasn't you. And really I don't recall who it was.

In any case, we're starting over and this time TT needs to find the next left tackle in the draft. If he's lucky the kid will have a year to sit behind Clifton and soak it all in. And that's if TT's lucky. So he better pick a good one, and probably better draft another right tackle, too, so Lang can play left guard. The re-up Tauscher, too.

[Patler]

Well, wait a second now. Earlier, much earlier, this season, one of you venerables in this thread suggested I overreacted to Meredith's loss to the Bills. I was unhappy as I saw him as the guy you need to develop and get ready for next year to take over from Clifton. I think I wanted him on the 53 man roster at someone else's expense, but one of you pointed out to me that Meredith was only a fifth rounder and you can get one of those fifth round talented-but-uncertain guys every year.

My argument was that yes, Meredith would be a waste of a valuable roster spot this year, but that this would pay off in the upcoming year. But someone out there suggested that as a fifth round pick made on "potential" those guys were easy come easy go.

Anybody remember that or care to take responsibility and explain? I'd really like to be right on this one. It's been a while.

Sure, bud, you can be right. Twasn't me, but I was ragged. We lose the other half of the NE deal. 3 high picks for a 1st and a 5th. Meredith was that fifth rounder. Why did we lose him? to keep the triple FB threat intact? I didn't dig it then and don't like it now.

Thank God the 1 was CMIII. That kid is unreal. 5 Rooks made the pro Bowl this year and he was one of 'em. He's a ruby, the real thing in person.

They lost Meredith because they decided they didn't want him, not because of the 3 FBs. They also lost Meredith because they decided that Giacomini had more immediate value to them than Meredith.

Hard to know what is fact and what is not, but when Meredith left they Packers were a mess in performance and with injuries in the O-line. Its clear they did little to retain him, and as I recall a day or two earlier said they had no intention to bring him off the PS, even with the injuries.

Basically, they lost him because they saw little potential that he would ever become a player.

[pbmax]

Losing Meredith was symptomatic of the trouble at tackle. He certainly wasn't the answer for this year and as Patler says above, they did not even make him the matching offer they have other PS candidates whom they wish to keep. I checked the Google cache of the JSO blog the day he was signed and it also reiterated that the Packers had indicated he was not a candidate for the roster even when Clifton and Colledge were hurt.

He might have been an interesting prospect to develop, but it was going to take time. He did not show much in preseason.

The question, as Patler put it even earlier, is if his start this year (or his development in the coming year) is a sign that he can play at this level, then Campen comes into further question as they will have lost a player who developed on a faster track that the Packers thought he would. The tricky part is that Buffalo's offense stinks. So we are not exactly comparing apples to apples.

[ThunderDan]

Losing Meredith was symptomatic of the trouble at tackle. He certainly wasn't the answer for this year and as Patler says above, they did not even make him the matching offer they have other PS candidates whom they wish to keep. I checked the Google cache of the JSO blog the day he was signed and it also reiterated that the Packers had indicated he was not a candidate for the roster even when Clifton and Colledge were hurt.

He might have been an interesting prospect to develop, but it was going to take time. He did not show much in preseason.

The question, as Patler put it even earlier, is if his start this year (or his development in the coming year) is a sign that he can play at this level, then Campen comes into further question as they will have lost a player who developed on a faster track that the Packers thought he would. The tricky part is that Buffalo's offense stinks. So we are not exactly comparing apples to apples.

Meredith was horrible in the preseason. He took the same drop in pass protection on every play. The DE just went deeper around him or cut inside to the QB. I was surprised he even made the practice squad. He was a "super" development project. I was even more surprised when he was signed off of the PS.

[KYPack]

Losing Meredith was symptomatic of the trouble at tackle. He certainly wasn't the answer for this year and as Patler says above, they did not even make him the matching offer they have other PS candidates whom they wish to keep. I checked the Google cache of the JSO blog the day he was signed and it also reiterated that the Packers had indicated he was not a candidate for the roster even when Clifton and Colledge were hurt.

He might have been an interesting prospect to develop, but it was going to take time. He did not show much in preseason.

The question, as Patler put it even earlier, is if his start this year (or his development in the coming year) is a sign that he can play at this level, then Campen comes into further question as they will have lost a player who developed on a faster track that the Packers thought he would. The tricky part is that Buffalo's offense stinks. So we are not exactly comparing apples to apples.

Meredith was horrible in the preseason. He took the same drop in pass protection on every play. The DE just went deeper around him or cut inside to the QB. I was surprised he even made the practice squad. He was a "super" development project. I was even more surprised when he was signed off of the PS.

Thanks on that, TD. I didn't see that much of Meredith in pre-season. Sounds like he may have improved by moving to Buff, but who knows. Patler's information makes it sound like a performance issue. Rookie O tackles usually don't do much. Two of the best young OT's I've ever seen was Cliffy and Tausch at the start of the decade.

There has to be some credence that other teams are developing their OLineman better than GB is. That's a performance issue, too. Some signs point to Campens ability to coach-up his young lineman. That bad for us, our philosophy is to go with the young guys in that spot.