Calling out - NFL KICKERS

[packers11]

What happened to the good ol reliable NFL kicker in the playoffs? (Adam Vinatieri)

Cincy - Shayne Graham - a probowler who looked like total shit against the jets, missed a 28 yarder?!?!

Dallas (folk) - then moved on to Shaun Suisham which did horrible in playoffs...

Skins- Shaun Suisham - choked against the saints... got the boot

Pats kicker - Wildcard game

Ravens kickers this season - I think they went through 2-3...

Packers - Mason Crosby wasn't consistent at all... Missed 1 in the playoff

Chargers - Kaeding going 0/3 today was the dagger for the Chargers... can you say choke?

Rackers - Lucky the packers lost that game or your ass would be hated by every Arizona fan... Missed a 33 yarder to end the game...


What is up with all the kickers this year?! Esp since most of the teams I listed are playoff teams, whats going on? I haven't seen it this bad in awhile, does anyone have any ideas?

[sheepshead]

I'm not sure there's an answer to this.Read some of Kaedings comments after the game. Just missin' 'em.

[Spaulding]

Didn't see the three kicks that Kaeding missed but there is a big difference in degrees of missed kicks.

On the highest level I'd say would be ones like Crosby where he's missing but consistent in the way he's doing so (pushing right).

Then there is erratic ones (both sides of the upright with no real rhyme or reason).

Finally, there is the outright shankers, likely not on any roster and if so, not for long.

Kickers like Kaeding, Graham, Rackers and Crosby are definitely keepers. Barring it getting mental I'd much rather have one of them on my roster than constantly searching for better and ending up with less.

One could also argue that there are regular season kickers (Vanderjagt, Gary Anderson, Norwood and possibly could add Grahm and Kaeding to the list, etc.) which seem to choke in the playoffs but are accurate during the regular season. Then three are post season kickers (Vinatieri, Elam, Stenerud, etc.) that excel when the pressure is at the highest.

Longwell also has the capability to be in the latter group if the Vikes (God help us if the do) win the Superbowl.

Ultimately, if you could have any kicker in today's game who would you take?

I'd steer towards Rob Bironas.

[sheepshead]

Robbie Gold

[Fosco33]

Crosby's miss was long - acceptable.

Kaeding tried a 57 yarder at the half. Mark him for 2 - still very big. But Leonhard's int and Greene's long run lost the game - not nate.

[mngolf19]

I've been wondering why no one on here mentions Longwell. He's been great for the Vikes, even hitting long fgs. And since he left GB they have been inconsistent and constantly looking for a suitable replacement. I guess from my perspective it was a mistake by TT to let him go.

[Joemailman]

Packer kickers don't play half their games in a dome. There was a lot of talk that Longwell kind of wanted out of Green Bay because he was tired of kicking in bad conditions.

[sheepshead]

Packer kickers don't play half their games in a dome. There was a lot of talk that Longwell kind of wanted out of Green Bay because he was tired of kicking in bad conditions.

I always heard that the negotiations were designed for that very result. He forced our hand.

[Bretsky]

I've been wondering why no one on here mentions Longwell. He's been great for the Vikes, even hitting long fgs. And since he left GB they have been inconsistent and constantly looking for a suitable replacement. I guess from my perspective it was a mistake by TT to let him go.


Longwell IMO was the Packers greatest kicker; I do think he kind of wanted to test the waters in the dome.

We rarely mention him in here beause it's rare than anybody gives an ex Packer credit once they leave.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Longwell's a great kicker.

[MOBB DEEP]

it's rare than anybody gives an ex Packer credit once they leave.

which is amazing to me; im jus the opposite, i appreciate what the did for the Pack. Alot of times its not in their control or makes good business sense to stay

I LOVED javon walkers play for us so i wanted to see him do well even though i dislike broncs ONLY less than cowgirls

I liked jacke a lil more than longy

[denverYooper]

it's rare than anybody gives an ex Packer credit once they leave.

which is amazing to me; im jus the opposite, i appreciate what the did for the Pack. Alot of times its not in their control or makes good business sense to stay

I LOVED javon walkers play for us so i wanted to see him do well even though i dislike broncs ONLY less than cowgirls

I liked jacke a lil more than longy

As a side note, Javon Walker has been subpoenaed in Denver to testify in the Darrent Williams murder trial.

[Patler]

I've been wondering why no one on here mentions Longwell. He's been great for the Vikes, even hitting long fgs. And since he left GB they have been inconsistent and constantly looking for a suitable replacement. I guess from my perspective it was a mistake by TT to let him go.


Longwell IMO was the Packers greatest kicker; I do think he kind of wanted to test the waters in the dome.

We rarely mention him in here beause it's rare than anybody gives an ex Packer credit once they leave.

Nay, its not that. Why should we waste time talking about players who didn't want to be in GB anymore, especially when they burned bridges behind them leaving town?

I have always said Longwell was a good kicker, even with his short KOs and all. But in praising Longwell and criticizing Crosby we should keep in mind that Longwell was anything but clutch his first 3 or 4 years or so, and rarely tried kicks beyond 45 yards until he got older. Crosby has 17 attempts beyond 50 yards in three years. Longwell tried just 22 in 9 seasons in GB.

[Scott Campbell]

How in the hell is it that King Louie can't get a NFL gig?


http://blog.al.com/bamabeat/2008/12/meet_utahs_top_gun.html

[Lurker64]

Longwell IMO was the Packers greatest kicker

Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung? He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker.

[sheepshead]

Longwell IMO was the Packers greatest kicker

Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung? He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker.

nice call.

[Bretsky]

Longwell IMO was the Packers greatest kicker

Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung? He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker.

I'm not old enough to judge that so I honestly would not know..

What was Hornung's field goal percentage as opposed to Ryan Longwells ? Distances ? I honestly have no idea and I would have to consider those befoer annointing Hornung as being better. He was certainly the better player for the Packers, though.

[esoxx]

Kaeding choked like a dog. Severe glazed ham look after the first miss, he was shot.
He'll make them at the Pro Bowl when nothing's on the line again.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Longwell IMO was the Packers greatest kicker

Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung? He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker.

nice call.

Bad call on both of you.

Hornung kicked for 4 years for the pack..and if you guys think Mason had problems..then Hornung sucked. Ty is excluding the 2 years he just kicked extra points.

Career:

From 0-19
18 of 28

From 20-29
14 of 21

From 30-39
7 of 24

From 40-49
2 of 11

From 50 plus
1 of 1

Even factoring in the different kicking style and the dual role (hornung is not alone in that) he wasn't a very good kicker..and certainly doesn't even deserve to be listed anywhere close to the top packer kicker.

[Patler]

Longwell IMO was the Packers greatest kicker

Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung? He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker.

nice call.

Bad call on both of you.

Hornung kicked for 4 years for the pack..and if you guys think Mason had problems..then Hornung sucked. Ty is excluding the 2 years he just kicked extra points.

Career:

From 0-19
18 of 28

From 20-29
14 of 21

From 30-39
7 of 24

From 40-49
2 of 11

From 50 plus
1 of 1

Even factoring in the different kicking style and the dual role (hornung is not alone in that) he wasn't a very good kicker..and certainly doesn't even deserve to be listed anywhere close to the top packer kicker.

Totally different era in kicking before the soccer style showed up

Through out the '60s, the really good straight on kickers hit 55-65%. Lots of factors, not the least of which is that the hashmarks were a lot wider (closer to the sidelines), so most kicks were from greater angles at similar distances. When they moved the hashmarks in, FG% went up immediately.

Kickers didn't use "kicking balls", all games were outdoors, fields didn't have near the drainage or water handling capabilities, etc. Few kickers were specialists, the starting QB was often the holder, and the snappers weren't specialists. It just wasn't an emphasized play, and wasn't practiced like now.

Straight-on kickers had a max range of about 50 yards under good conditions. As I recall, Hornungs lone 50 yard attempt was on a free kick. They used to report that "so and so" had a 50 yard attempt, it was that much of a novelty.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Longwell IMO was the Packers greatest kicker

Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung? He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker.

nice call.

Bad call on both of you.

Hornung kicked for 4 years for the pack..and if you guys think Mason had problems..then Hornung sucked. Ty is excluding the 2 years he just kicked extra points.

Career:

From 0-19
18 of 28

From 20-29
14 of 21

From 30-39
7 of 24

From 40-49
2 of 11

From 50 plus
1 of 1

Even factoring in the different kicking style and the dual role (hornung is not alone in that) he wasn't a very good kicker..and certainly doesn't even deserve to be listed anywhere close to the top packer kicker.

Totally different era in kicking before the soccer style showed up

Through out the '60s, the really good straight on kickers hit 55-65%. Lots of factors, not the least of which is that the hashmarks were a lot wider (closer to the sidelines), so most kicks were from greater angles at similar distances. When they moved the hashmarks in, FG% went up immediately.

Kickers didn't use "kicking balls", all games were outdoors, fields didn't have near the drainage or water handling capabilities, etc. Few kickers were specialists, the starting QB was often the holder, and the snappers weren't specialists. It just wasn't an emphasized play, and wasn't practiced like now.

Straight-on kickers had a max range of about 50 yards under good conditions. As I recall, Hornungs lone 50 yard attempt was on a free kick. They used to report that "so and so" had a 50 yard attempt, it was that much of a novelty.

Of course it was a different era. And, maybe you didn't notice that Ty noted this "kicking style."

Regardless of kicking style, Hornung wasn't a good kicker. He didn't rate at the top in his own era.

Let me put it to you this way, Jim Bakken wasn't missing field goals from 0-19. Capelleti was 46-53 from that range. Mercer was 28-31. Fred Cox was 55-57.

Talking about Hornung as a good kicker is just foolish. Actually thinking he was the packer's greatest kicker is asinine. Don Chandler was a better kicker.

Hornung shouldn't even be discussed as one of the greatest packer kickers. Jacke, Longwell, Stenerud, Marcol, Crosby, and perhaps Del Greco were better.

[Patler]

Longwell IMO was the Packers greatest kicker

Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung? He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker.

nice call.

Bad call on both of you.

Hornung kicked for 4 years for the pack..and if you guys think Mason had problems..then Hornung sucked. Ty is excluding the 2 years he just kicked extra points.

Career:

From 0-19
18 of 28

From 20-29
14 of 21

From 30-39
7 of 24

From 40-49
2 of 11

From 50 plus
1 of 1

Even factoring in the different kicking style and the dual role (hornung is not alone in that) he wasn't a very good kicker..and certainly doesn't even deserve to be listed anywhere close to the top packer kicker.

Totally different era in kicking before the soccer style showed up

Through out the '60s, the really good straight on kickers hit 55-65%. Lots of factors, not the least of which is that the hashmarks were a lot wider (closer to the sidelines), so most kicks were from greater angles at similar distances. When they moved the hashmarks in, FG% went up immediately.

Kickers didn't use "kicking balls", all games were outdoors, fields didn't have near the drainage or water handling capabilities, etc. Few kickers were specialists, the starting QB was often the holder, and the snappers weren't specialists. It just wasn't an emphasized play, and wasn't practiced like now.

Straight-on kickers had a max range of about 50 yards under good conditions. As I recall, Hornungs lone 50 yard attempt was on a free kick. They used to report that "so and so" had a 50 yard attempt, it was that much of a novelty.

Of course it was a different era. And, maybe you didn't notice that Ty noted this "kicking style."

Regardless of kicking style, Hornung wasn't a good kicker. He didn't rate at the top in his own era.

Let me put it to you this way, Jim Bakken wasn't missing field goals from 0-19. Capelleti was 46-53 from that range. Mercer was 28-31. Fred Cox was 55-57.

Talking about Hornung as a good kicker is just foolish. Actually thinking he was the packer's greatest kicker is asinine. Don Chandler was a better kicker.

Hornung shouldn't even be discussed as one of the greatest packer kickers. Jacke, Longwell, Stenerud, Marcol, Crosby, and perhaps Del Greco were better.

Oh Ty, sometimes you are just too easily baited.

Of course I noted Ty's reference to "kicking style". Maybe Ty didn't notice that I in no way shape or form suggested that Hornung was one of the greatest Packer kickers of all times, nor did the original comment if read carefully?

Perhaps Ty failed to notice the difference between "the greatest Packer who was also a kicker" which was the original comment, and Ty's foolish argument concerning "the top Packer kicker" or "the Packers greatest kicker." A subtle difference, but a significant one. It does not surprise me that Ty missed it in his zeal to insult and ridicule.

However, even missing the difference, arguing as Ty did in the first post by seemingly comparing percentages then to percentages now was asinine.

Good Morning Ty. :lol:

[pbmax]

Do the special 'K' for kicking balls help or hurt placekickers? My impression is that they hurt them, as the kickers preferred to rub the shine off them before the game. But to be honest, it has been mostly punters that have discussed this. I do not recall placekickers' opinions on the matter.

[Patler]

Do the special 'K' for kicking balls help or hurt placekickers? My impression is that they hurt them, as the kickers preferred to rub the shine off them before the game. But to be honest, it has been mostly punters that have discussed this. I do not recall placekickers' opinions on the matter.

Some said the benefit when they first went to "K" balls, and even earlier when they generally started caring for balls better during the game in the '70s, was that the balls were clean. With the indoor stadiums, the new "mudless" fields outdoors and the like, its probably a mostly moot concern today.

[vince]

In terms of Packer history, I think you can only say that Longwell was the best, followed closely by Jan Stenerud. Kicking statistics tell everything with kickers (even when it comes to kicking off, neither of which were strong in that area for the Packers - although I didn't look up those stats).

Longwell kicked for 9 years here and has Stenerud beat by 0.8% (81.6% - 80.8%) in field goal %. Stenerud was a Packer for a shorter time also - 3 1/2 years. Longwell was more consistent (72% vs. 57%) from 40-49, which I think is the money range, as far more kicks are attempted from that distance than 50+, and most kickers probably hit about 90% from 39 and in. Certainly those in consideration for any type of "best of" debate do so. Stenerud did have one year (1981) for the Pack where he made 92% (22 of 24), which is the best year ever for a Packer kicker. Longwell's best year was 2003 (88% - 23-26).

Thus far, Crosby would be the third best at 78% career-to-date. Jacke is 4th at 76.2% kicker for the Pack. Both of these guys gave better hangtime and kicked deeper on kickoffs as I recall, than both Longwell and Stenerud, so depending on the weight you may place on that, there may be an argument for one of these two guys.

Crosby seems to be stellar when it comes to specialty kickoffs, including consistently delivering picture-perfect onside kicks when the situation calls for one.

[Patler]

Vince; I think your summary is right on; but you missed an important consideration (especially with the Packers the last few years). Crosby looks to be the best tackler! :lol:

[vince]

Actually, I'd give that nod to John Anderson, who also had a 100% field goal % for the Pack! :lol:

[Bossman641]

Do the special 'K' for kicking balls help or hurt placekickers? My impression is that they hurt them, as the kickers preferred to rub the shine off them before the game. But to be honest, it has been mostly punters that have discussed this. I do not recall placekickers' opinions on the matter.

The way I remember it, both kicks and punters were hurt by the change to the "K" balls as they were not able to rub and doctor them the way they used to.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Packer kickers don't play half their games in a dome. There was a lot of talk that Longwell kind of wanted out of Green Bay because he was tired of kicking in bad conditions.

Jason Hanson has made a solid 18 year career kicking in safe elements in Detroit.

If you estimate that half of the teams play indoors and the other outdoors, an indoor kicker only kicks outside 4 times per year and as opposed to the 12 times per year an outdoor kicker does it. I think it really skews stats.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Longwell IMO was the Packers greatest kicker

Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung? He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker.

nice call.

Bad call on both of you.

Hornung kicked for 4 years for the pack..and if you guys think Mason had problems..then Hornung sucked. Ty is excluding the 2 years he just kicked extra points.

Career:

From 0-19
18 of 28

From 20-29
14 of 21

From 30-39
7 of 24

From 40-49
2 of 11

From 50 plus
1 of 1

Even factoring in the different kicking style and the dual role (hornung is not alone in that) he wasn't a very good kicker..and certainly doesn't even deserve to be listed anywhere close to the top packer kicker.

Totally different era in kicking before the soccer style showed up

Through out the '60s, the really good straight on kickers hit 55-65%. Lots of factors, not the least of which is that the hashmarks were a lot wider (closer to the sidelines), so most kicks were from greater angles at similar distances. When they moved the hashmarks in, FG% went up immediately.

Kickers didn't use "kicking balls", all games were outdoors, fields didn't have near the drainage or water handling capabilities, etc. Few kickers were specialists, the starting QB was often the holder, and the snappers weren't specialists. It just wasn't an emphasized play, and wasn't practiced like now.

Straight-on kickers had a max range of about 50 yards under good conditions. As I recall, Hornungs lone 50 yard attempt was on a free kick. They used to report that "so and so" had a 50 yard attempt, it was that much of a novelty.

Of course it was a different era. And, maybe you didn't notice that Ty noted this "kicking style."

Regardless of kicking style, Hornung wasn't a good kicker. He didn't rate at the top in his own era.

Let me put it to you this way, Jim Bakken wasn't missing field goals from 0-19. Capelleti was 46-53 from that range. Mercer was 28-31. Fred Cox was 55-57.

Talking about Hornung as a good kicker is just foolish. Actually thinking he was the packer's greatest kicker is asinine. Don Chandler was a better kicker.

Hornung shouldn't even be discussed as one of the greatest packer kickers. Jacke, Longwell, Stenerud, Marcol, Crosby, and perhaps Del Greco were better.

Oh Ty, sometimes you are just too easily baited.

Of course I noted Ty's reference to "kicking style". Maybe Ty didn't notice that I in no way shape or form suggested that Hornung was one of the greatest Packer kickers of all times, nor did the original comment if read carefully?

Perhaps Ty failed to notice the difference between "the greatest Packer who was also a kicker" which was the original comment, and Ty's foolish argument concerning "the top Packer kicker" or "the Packers greatest kicker." A subtle difference, but a significant one. It does not surprise me that Ty missed it in his zeal to insult and ridicule.

However, even missing the difference, arguing as Ty did in the first post by seemingly comparing percentages then to percentages now was asinine.

Good Morning Ty. :lol:

So, let's get this straight...you post a long diatribe about the differences in style and era, which i noted. Basically talking about something that has no bearing on my post..since my post was about hornung. Then, why not just post it and not respond to my post. Then you post that i'm easily baited. Why are you trying to bait someone, if you arent' trying to establish a position. Hmm.

I saw what was originally posted.......and the person then hedged. But, the ORIGINAL comment was not as you say. The original was "Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung?" Followed by his hedge. Nice try, though. The original comment was in response to longwell being the best/greatest kicker. You are wrong. The argument is about that. The poster then notes he was the greatest player who kicked.

And, if we are going on the subtle..then I could argue Kramer was the greatest who also kicked.

Hornung was not our top kicker nor our greatest kicker....and all the rest of your patler argument is just bs, and you know it.

And, Ty NEVER compared percentages then to today. Didn't do it...didn't "seemingly" either. Find it. Ty merely posted his numbers. Ooops. :oops:

The simple fact is that good kickers of any era...well, can't speak of the 40s and such made their field goal inside the 20. Kramer did it, Cox did it, Groza did it, etc. Hornung wasn't good inside the 20. And, that is all Ty needs to establish that he wasn't our greatest kicker.

good afternoon.

[Patler]

So, let's get this straight...you post a long diatribe about the differences in style and era, which i noted. Basically talking about something that has no bearing on my post..since my post was about hornung. Then, why not just post it and not respond to my post. Then you post that i'm easily baited. Why are you trying to bait someone, if you arent' trying to establish a position. Hmm.
Just to see you rant uncontrollably and illogically, as you are.


I saw what was originally posted.......and the person then hedged. But, the ORIGINAL comment was not as you say. The original was "Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung?" Followed by his hedge. Nice try, though. The original comment was in response to longwell being the best/greatest kicker. You are wrong. The argument is about that. The poster then notes he was the greatest player who kicked.
You saw it? Really? He Hedged? Doesn't look like it to me. A single, unequivocal, two sentence statement:



Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung? He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker.

Ooops! :oops: :oops:


And, if we are going on the subtle..then I could argue Kramer was the greatest who also kicked.
Well, you could do that sure. It would be a pretty darn weak argument, in my opinion.


Hornung was not our top kicker nor our greatest kicker....and all the rest of your patler argument is just bs, and you know it.
I would never argue that Hornung was, nor did I argue that he was. The only bs I see here is coming from you, as you scramble to recover from getting caught with a long-winded argument against nothing more than Lurker's humorous comment.


And, Ty NEVER compared percentages then to today. Didn't do it...didn't "seemingly" either. Find it. Ty merely posted his numbers. .
Oh Really??? When your post was:






Longwell IMO was the Packers greatest kicker

Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung? He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker.

nice call.

Bad call on both of you.

Hornung kicked for 4 years for the pack..and if you guys think Mason had problems..then Hornung sucked. Ty is excluding the 2 years he just kicked extra points.

(Stats deleted by Patler for brevity)

Even factoring in the different kicking style and the dual role (hornung is not alone in that) he wasn't a very good kicker..and certainly doesn't even deserve to be listed anywhere close to the top packer kicker.

You intended no comparison. Riiiiiiiiight! I believ you Ty, sure. :wink: :wink:
If you weren't comparing him to today, then why state "he wasn't a very good kicker..and certainly doesn't even deserve to be listed anywhere close to the top packer kicker." Doesn't that require a comparison to the kickers of today???????


The simple fact is that good kickers of any era...well, can't speak of the 40s and such made their field goal inside the 20. Kramer did it, Cox did it, Groza did it, etc. Hornung wasn't good inside the 20. And, that is all Ty needs to establish that he wasn't our greatest kicker.

good afternoon.
There you go again with the comparison. I have no idea who you are arguing the point with.

Good night Ty.

[MOBB DEEP]

it's rare than anybody gives an ex Packer credit once they leave.

which is amazing to me; im jus the opposite, i appreciate what the did for the Pack. Alot of times its not in their control or makes good business sense to stay

I LOVED javon walkers play for us so i wanted to see him do well even though i dislike broncs ONLY less than cowgirls

I liked jacke a lil more than longy

As a side note, Javon Walker has been subpoenaed in Denver to testify in the Darrent Williams murder trial.

didnt even know the trial hadnt been completed yet; funny how so many things are so news worthy at first then falls to the wayside nationally....

so tragic

[Tyrone Bigguns]

So, let's get this straight...you post a long diatribe about the differences in style and era, which i noted. Basically talking about something that has no bearing on my post..since my post was about hornung. Then, why not just post it and not respond to my post. Then you post that i'm easily baited. Why are you trying to bait someone, if you arent' trying to establish a position. Hmm.
Just to see you rant uncontrollably and illogically, as you are.


I saw what was originally posted.......and the person then hedged. But, the ORIGINAL comment was not as you say. The original was "Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung?" Followed by his hedge. Nice try, though. The original comment was in response to longwell being the best/greatest kicker. You are wrong. The argument is about that. The poster then notes he was the greatest player who kicked.
You saw it? Really? He Hedged? Doesn't look like it to me. A single, unequivocal, two sentence statement:



Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung? He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker.

Ooops! :oops: :oops:


And, if we are going on the subtle..then I could argue Kramer was the greatest who also kicked.
Well, you could do that sure. It would be a pretty darn weak argument, in my opinion.


Hornung was not our top kicker nor our greatest kicker....and all the rest of your patler argument is just bs, and you know it.
I would never argue that Hornung was, nor did I argue that he was. The only bs I see here is coming from you, as you scramble to recover from getting caught with a long-winded argument against nothing more than Lurker's humorous comment.


And, Ty NEVER compared percentages then to today. Didn't do it...didn't "seemingly" either. Find it. Ty merely posted his numbers. .
Oh Really??? When your post was:






Longwell IMO was the Packers greatest kicker

Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung? He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker.

nice call.

Bad call on both of you.

Hornung kicked for 4 years for the pack..and if you guys think Mason had problems..then Hornung sucked. Ty is excluding the 2 years he just kicked extra points.

(Stats deleted by Patler for brevity)

Even factoring in the different kicking style and the dual role (hornung is not alone in that) he wasn't a very good kicker..and certainly doesn't even deserve to be listed anywhere close to the top packer kicker.

You intended no comparison. Riiiiiiiiight! I believ you Ty, sure. :wink: :wink:
If you weren't comparing him to today, then why state "he wasn't a very good kicker..and certainly doesn't even deserve to be listed anywhere close to the top packer kicker." Doesn't that require a comparison to the kickers of today???????


The simple fact is that good kickers of any era...well, can't speak of the 40s and such made their field goal inside the 20. Kramer did it, Cox did it, Groza did it, etc. Hornung wasn't good inside the 20. And, that is all Ty needs to establish that he wasn't our greatest kicker.

good afternoon.
There you go again with the comparison. I have no idea who you are arguing the point with.

Good night Ty.

1. Rant. That is hilarious. Illogical. Care to point where that is..nope. You would rather just insult. 2 can play the patler game.
2. Just cause you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. The post was in repsonse to Longwell. He stated shouldn't that be Hornung. The hedge is if he isn't then he is the greatest player who kicked. That is hedging on the first sentence. Sorry.
3. Your oops denies the first sentence..and that it was a response to Longwell being stated as the best kicker. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
3. Weak argument. LOL Yes, it would be weak to mention a player that was in the 50 greatest when the list came out in 69 ty believes. Don't think Hornung was on the list. A player that was 5 time pro bowl to 2x for Hornung. Sorry, but it ain't weak. Hornung was great and so was Kramer.
4. Recover. Right. What i see is you backpedaling. You attempted to educate those who didn't need educating. You responded to my post..which implies a position regarding my post. And, you have now assumed lurker was being humorous..despite the fact that there is no emoticon or reason to believe that. He responded to the proposition that longwell was our best kicker. What is humorous about mentioning Hornung. Please explain the humor. Humor would be mentioning a sucky kicker or someone who kicked once in their career.
5. Comparson. Nope. It means you look at who was good in their time period and you look at who was good in this time period. You dont' compare distinct time periods. Nice try.

That is why is stated it the way i did. I put it into context for his time. I didn't say, look at this percentage made by mason/longwell/jack vs. Hornungs. My god, it really is that simple. You are reading WAY more into it than i ever thought possible.

And, i stated that those who thought mason was problematic..didn't say what i thought of mason. THe issue wasn't comparing mason to hornung on percentage..but, that those that thought mason was missing makeable kicks would be complaining about hornung missing makeable kicks. It really shouldn't be this hard for you to understand. Problems vs. problems. Not stats vs. stats.

It is simple. You can admit you have read more into it..anytime you want. And, you can admit that i didn't use stats..as you said i did. You stated it and you were wrong. I purposefully left those out. Just as i wouldn't compare passing #s or reception #s. Different eras, different rules, different coaching, etc. That doesn't mean that one can't say player X was great in his era and player Y was great in another. And player X was average in his era and player Y was average in his. 20 tds tossed in 1960 may have been great (dont' know..this is just an example) but would be average today..but, that doesn't make 20 tds in 1960 average.

I let Hornungs #s speak for themselves.

And, no..it doesn't require comparing to today..it requires comparing to other kickers of his time..which is the reason i listed them in response. I have never attempted to compare today to yesterday...EXCEPT stating that good kickers of that time period made their field goals inside the 20, just as they should today.

Good nite, patler.

[Patler]

So, let's get this straight...you post a long diatribe about the differences in style and era, which i noted. Basically talking about something that has no bearing on my post..since my post was about hornung. Then, why not just post it and not respond to my post. Then you post that i'm easily baited. Why are you trying to bait someone, if you arent' trying to establish a position. Hmm.
Just to see you rant uncontrollably and illogically, as you are.


I saw what was originally posted.......and the person then hedged. But, the ORIGINAL comment was not as you say. The original was "Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung?" Followed by his hedge. Nice try, though. The original comment was in response to longwell being the best/greatest kicker. You are wrong. The argument is about that. The poster then notes he was the greatest player who kicked.
You saw it? Really? He Hedged? Doesn't look like it to me. A single, unequivocal, two sentence statement:



Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung? He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker.

Ooops! :oops: :oops:


And, if we are going on the subtle..then I could argue Kramer was the greatest who also kicked.
Well, you could do that sure. It would be a pretty darn weak argument, in my opinion.


Hornung was not our top kicker nor our greatest kicker....and all the rest of your patler argument is just bs, and you know it.
I would never argue that Hornung was, nor did I argue that he was. The only bs I see here is coming from you, as you scramble to recover from getting caught with a long-winded argument against nothing more than Lurker's humorous comment.


And, Ty NEVER compared percentages then to today. Didn't do it...didn't "seemingly" either. Find it. Ty merely posted his numbers. .
Oh Really??? When your post was:






Longwell IMO was the Packers greatest kicker

Shouldn't that be Paul Hornung? He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker.

nice call.

Bad call on both of you.

Hornung kicked for 4 years for the pack..and if you guys think Mason had problems..then Hornung sucked. Ty is excluding the 2 years he just kicked extra points.

(Stats deleted by Patler for brevity)

Even factoring in the different kicking style and the dual role (hornung is not alone in that) he wasn't a very good kicker..and certainly doesn't even deserve to be listed anywhere close to the top packer kicker.

You intended no comparison. Riiiiiiiiight! I believ you Ty, sure. :wink: :wink:
If you weren't comparing him to today, then why state "he wasn't a very good kicker..and certainly doesn't even deserve to be listed anywhere close to the top packer kicker." Doesn't that require a comparison to the kickers of today???????


The simple fact is that good kickers of any era...well, can't speak of the 40s and such made their field goal inside the 20. Kramer did it, Cox did it, Groza did it, etc. Hornung wasn't good inside the 20. And, that is all Ty needs to establish that he wasn't our greatest kicker.

good afternoon.
There you go again with the comparison. I have no idea who you are arguing the point with.

Good night Ty.

1. Rant. That is hilarious. Illogical. Care to point where that is..nope. You would rather just insult. 2 can play the patler game.
2. Just cause you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. The post was in repsonse to Longwell. He stated shouldn't that be Hornung. The hedge is if he isn't then he is the greatest player who kicked. That is hedging on the first sentence. Sorry.
3. Your oops denies the first sentence..and that it was a response to Longwell being stated as the best kicker. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
3. Weak argument. LOL Yes, it would be weak to mention a player that was in the 50 greatest when the list came out in 69 ty believes. Don't think Hornung was on the list. A player that was 5 time pro bowl to 2x for Hornung. Sorry, but it ain't weak. Hornung was great and so was Kramer.
4. Recover. Right. What i see is you backpedaling. You attempted to educate those who didn't need educating. You responded to my post..which implies a position regarding my post. And, you have now assumed lurker was being humorous..despite the fact that there is no emoticon or reason to believe that. He responded to the proposition that longwell was our best kicker. What is humorous about mentioning Hornung. Please explain the humor. Humor would be mentioning a sucky kicker or someone who kicked once in their career.
5. Comparson. Nope. It means you look at who was good in their time period and you look at who was good in this time period. You dont' compare distinct time periods. Nice try.

That is why is stated it the way i did. I put it into context for his time. I didn't say, look at this percentage made by mason/longwell/jack vs. Hornungs. My god, it really is that simple. You are reading WAY more into it than i ever thought possible.

And, i stated that those who thought mason was problematic..didn't say what i thought of mason. THe issue wasn't comparing mason to hornung on percentage..but, that those that thought mason was missing makeable kicks would be complaining about hornung missing makeable kicks. It really shouldn't be this hard for you to understand. Problems vs. problems. Not stats vs. stats.

It is simple. You can admit you have read more into it..anytime you want. And, you can admit that i didn't use stats..as you said i did. You stated it and you were wrong. I purposefully left those out. Just as i wouldn't compare passing #s or reception #s. Different eras, different rules, different coaching, etc. That doesn't mean that one can't say player X was great in his era and player Y was great in another. And player X was average in his era and player Y was average in his. 20 tds tossed in 1960 may have been great (dont' know..this is just an example) but would be average today..but, that doesn't make 20 tds in 1960 average.

I let Hornungs #s speak for themselves.

And, no..it doesn't require comparing to today..it requires comparing to other kickers of his time..which is the reason i listed them in response. I have never attempted to compare today to yesterday...EXCEPT stating that good kickers of that time period made their field goals inside the 20, just as they should today.

Good nite, patler.

I see, no ranting on your part! :lol:
The hole you are digger for yourself is getting deeper.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Translation:

I can't admit i was wrong.

[Patler]

Translation:

I can't admit i was wrong.

I suspected that you can not!

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Translation:

I can't admit i was wrong.

I suspected that you can not!

Translation:

I still can't admit i was wrong so i will go for humor.

P.S. why don't you explain why my list answering yours is a rant whereas yours is not. This ought to be good. We all need a laugh after the packer loss.

[Patler]

Volume and venom.
But, we've beaten this dead horse sufficiently, don't you agree?
We've ruined this thread sufficiently, don't you agree?
We've turned away potential respondents to the thread sufficiently, don't you agree?

Go ahead, have the last word if you must, as you often do. I'm done and bored with it. I tried to let it go light heartedly. You refused. Fine.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Volume and venom.
But, we've beaten this dead horse sufficiently, don't you agree?
We've ruined this thread sufficiently, don't you agree?
We've turned away potential respondents to the thread sufficiently, don't you agree?

Go ahead, have the last word if you must, as you often do. I'm done and bored with it. I tried to let it go light heartedly. You refused. Fine.

You are ridiculous. Venom? You have really lost it.

Ty loves the picture you paint of yourself...you tried to let it go, you tried lightheartedly. Ty refused. What a victim you are.

[Fritz]

Ty, you got Patlerized.

Don't worry about it so much. Happens to the best of us.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ty, you got Patlerized.

Don't worry about it so much. Happens to the best of us.

Sorry Fritz, but Ty didn't.

Hornung wasn't the greatest packer kicker. Hornung wasn't even a good kicker in his day. Ty never compared him to modern day kickers, etc.

Patler can be wrong. It happens to the best of them.

[Freak Out]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/Barnze/wanker.gif

[Fritz]

Ty, you got Patlerized.

Don't worry about it so much. Happens to the best of us.

Sorry Fritz, but Ty didn't.

Hornung wasn't the greatest packer kicker. Hornung wasn't even a good kicker in his day. Ty never compared him to modern day kickers, etc.

Patler can be wrong. It happens to the best of them.

Allow me to quote Lurker, whose post about Hornung you disagreed with: "He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker."

Neither Lurker nor Patler was claiming that Hornung was the greatest Packer kicker. Your use of Lurker's first line to set up a strawman doesn't change that.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ty, you got Patlerized.

Don't worry about it so much. Happens to the best of us.

Sorry Fritz, but Ty didn't.

Hornung wasn't the greatest packer kicker. Hornung wasn't even a good kicker in his day. Ty never compared him to modern day kickers, etc.

Patler can be wrong. It happens to the best of them.

Allow me to quote Lurker, whose post about Hornung you disagreed with: "He was certainly the greatest Packer who was also a kicker."

Neither Lurker nor Patler was claiming that Hornung was the greatest Packer kicker. Your use of Lurker's first line to set up a strawman doesn't change that.

Sorry. The first sentence is in response to the question. Lurker said "shouldn't that be hornung..." Then, he hedges by saying the second.

And, Patler was certainly wrong when he said Lurker was making a joke. You can't have it both ways.

And, Patler certainly said that i compared kickers and their stats...which ty didn't.