T.T. gives the media no ammo

[packers11]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/82653002.html

:bclap:

especially at the end when they asked him about Favre... I'm glad he is taking the high road on these questions...

I wonder if T.T. is doing all his studying now on the Senior Bowl so he can fall asleep at the NFL combine? :lol: :wink:

[Lurker64]

I'm disappointed that Thompson took time off from scouting in order to talk to the media. There's plenty of time for that after OTAs.

[Joemailman]

I'm disappointed that the media still wants to stir up trouble between Favre and The Packers.

[sheepshead]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

[packerbacker1234]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

We'll see. He hasn't really done well at the positions that do matter most: The line. Our OL is still relying on veterans to hold down the fort, and while he got picket he was just as productive as the linemen he let go in grady. He has drafted top DL with top picks and neither have showned much yet, though Raji will have a shot this next season.

Hawk hasn't played up the #5 pick since his rookie season. Matthews had a great rookie year... lets see if he can continue it.


He isn't a bad GM, I never really thought he was. He is pretty solid at drafting players in general, but the fact he pretty much never gets involved in FA makes it so hard to win. FA isn't always the key, but he seems to always "draft for the future" and not go after anyone that we could use desperately, like a stud guard, or D-Linemen.

Woodson was a great pickup, but you can hardly say year to eyar he has been committed to wining that year based on the moves he makes. He is a solid gm, but until he puts together a championship team he is nothing more than that.

[mraynrand]

I don't think Bob Harlan surrounded TT with the talent he needs to win.

[pbmax]

I don't think Bob Harlan surrounded TT with the talent he needs to win.
The guy in charge of office supplies is always getting low on paper clips.

[sharpe1027]

We'll see. He hasn't really done well at the positions that do matter most: The line. Our OL is still relying on veterans to hold down the fort, and while he got picket he was just as productive as the linemen he let go in grady. He has drafted top DL with top picks and neither have showned much yet, though Raji will have a shot this next season.

Hawk hasn't played up the #5 pick since his rookie season. Matthews had a great rookie year... lets see if he can continue it.


He isn't a bad GM, I never really thought he was. He is pretty solid at drafting players in general, but the fact he pretty much never gets involved in FA makes it so hard to win. FA isn't always the key, but he seems to always "draft for the future" and not go after anyone that we could use desperately, like a stud guard, or D-Linemen.

Woodson was a great pickup, but you can hardly say year to eyar he has been committed to wining that year based on the moves he makes. He is a solid gm, but until he puts together a championship team he is nothing more than that.

You can hardly say that based upon the moves he makes, year to year, he has not been committed to winning that year. :P

[ND72]

I get a huge kick out of the media always trying to pry something from Thompson, and he never changes.

[ThunderDan]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

We'll see. He hasn't really done well at the positions that do matter most: The line. Our OL is still relying on veterans to hold down the fort, and while he got picket he was just as productive as the linemen he let go in grady. He has drafted top DL with top picks and neither have showned much yet, though Raji will have a shot this next season.

Hawk hasn't played up the #5 pick since his rookie season. Matthews had a great rookie year... lets see if he can continue it.


He isn't a bad GM, I never really thought he was. He is pretty solid at drafting players in general, but the fact he pretty much never gets involved in FA makes it so hard to win. FA isn't always the key, but he seems to always "draft for the future" and not go after anyone that we could use desperately, like a stud guard, or D-Linemen.

Woodson was a great pickup, but you can hardly say year to eyar he has been committed to wining that year based on the moves he makes. He is a solid gm, but until he puts together a championship team he is nothing more than that.

After the last season the debate was, was 2007 or 2008 the "fake" year.

So we have now gone: 4-12, 8-8, 13-3, 6-10, 11-5

We have been in the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years. We have an exciting offense that finally got on track at the end of the season. Our defense played well in it's first season as a 3-4 team. It seems to me that TT has things going in the right direction with a stumble last year.

[ND72]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

We'll see. He hasn't really done well at the positions that do matter most: The line. Our OL is still relying on veterans to hold down the fort, and while he got picket he was just as productive as the linemen he let go in grady. He has drafted top DL with top picks and neither have showned much yet, though Raji will have a shot this next season.

Hawk hasn't played up the #5 pick since his rookie season. Matthews had a great rookie year... lets see if he can continue it.


He isn't a bad GM, I never really thought he was. He is pretty solid at drafting players in general, but the fact he pretty much never gets involved in FA makes it so hard to win. FA isn't always the key, but he seems to always "draft for the future" and not go after anyone that we could use desperately, like a stud guard, or D-Linemen.

Woodson was a great pickup, but you can hardly say year to eyar he has been committed to wining that year based on the moves he makes. He is a solid gm, but until he puts together a championship team he is nothing more than that.

After the last season the debate was, was 2007 or 2008 the "fake" year.

So we have now gone: 4-12, 8-8, 13-3, 6-10, 11-5

We have been in the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years. We have an exciting offense that finally got on track at the end of the season. Our defense played well in it's first season as a 3-4 team. It seems to me that TT has things going in the right direction with a stumble last year.


I think last year's 6-10 mark had to be expected with a new leader in Rodgers, and all the Favre drama in the start of camp. The thing that wasn't expected, was for our defense to fall on their face, so I would say we have the ship turned in the proper direction.

[The Leaper]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

He needs to acquire the talent to win a Super Bowl and build a consistent winner before he can even be considered one of the best.

[Bretsky]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

He needs to acquire the talent to win a Super Bowl and build a consistent winner before he can even be considered one of the best.


ditto; I'll annoint him as a king after he earns the crown

[Gunakor]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

He needs to acquire the talent to win a Super Bowl and build a consistent winner before he can even be considered one of the best.

I may be in the minority here, but I think he already has for the most part aquired championship caliber talent. And the core is young. Color me crazy but I feel this team has dynasty written all over it as the core players continue to mature together as a team. They'll only get better going forward.

[Gunakor]

ditto; I'll annoint him as a king after he earns the crown

The King has already annointed him.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/01/04/awards/index.html

[Fritz]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

He needs to acquire the talent to win a Super Bowl and build a consistent winner before he can even be considered one of the best.


ditto; I'll annoint him as a king after he earns the crown

Nobody said he was THE best; the phrase was "one of the best."

I think he is one of the best GM's in the NFL. He's better than "okay" or even "pretty good."

How many are better? Does New England's GM count since so many claim it's the coach who runs the show?

Let's see...Indianapolis has a GM who's gotten the team to the SB a couple times lately. Minnesota's GM - is that Spielburg? - could be said to be better based on the past year, though Thompson got the pieces to get GB to the same NFC championship game three years ago. San Diego? Nope, no Super Bowl. New Orleans? Maybe. Pittsburgh? Good organization, but for those pointing fingers at Thompson's up-and-down record, how do you account for Pittsburgh's up-and-down seasons? Arizona? Dallas? Baltimore? Have those teams gotten further than Green Bay?

No, Thompson can't be said to be the best GM in the NFL. No Super Bowl appearance, no consistent streak of playoff runs yet. But I think it's fairly safe to say he's one of the top five in the NFL.

[sheepshead]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

He needs to acquire the talent to win a Super Bowl and build a consistent winner before he can even be considered one of the best.


ditto; I'll annoint him as a king after he earns the crown

Nobody said he was THE best; the phrase was "one of the best."

I think he is one of the best GM's in the NFL. He's better than "okay" or even "pretty good."

How many are better? Does New England's GM count since so many claim it's the coach who runs the show?

Let's see...Indianapolis has a GM who's gotten the team to the SB a couple times lately. Minnesota's GM - is that Spielburg? - could be said to be better based on the past year, though Thompson got the pieces to get GB to the same NFC championship game three years ago. San Diego? Nope, no Super Bowl. New Orleans? Maybe. Pittsburgh? Good organization, but for those pointing fingers at Thompson's up-and-down record, how do you account for Pittsburgh's up-and-down seasons? Arizona? Dallas? Baltimore? Have those teams gotten further than Green Bay?

No, Thompson can't be said to be the best GM in the NFL. No Super Bowl appearance, no consistent streak of playoff runs yet. But I think it's fairly safe to say he's one of the top five in the NFL.

well said, I know we spend a lot of time on these boards ripping his choices and contemplating free agents and draft choices and that makes the NFL fun, but I'm not sure I would trade TT for another guy right now.

[Scott Campbell]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

We'll see. He hasn't really done well at the positions that do matter most:



Because QB matters about as much as the punter does.

[Patler]

Considering in the span of five years he rebuilt 54 of 62 roster spots (active and IR in 2009) with players he brought in, replaced a HOF QB, made the playoffs a couple times and has a young team good enough to have 11 wins in the current season, I think TT has done a very good job. Good enough to call him one of the better GMs in the league. Rebuilding a team to that extent, especially when QB is part of the rebuild, and not go through consecutive seasons that are abysmal, is no easy task. While the record in 2008 was not good, the team was competitive. There was really only one bad season.

Thompson has accomplished a heck of a lot, but there is still more to do. There will always be more to do because of the ever changing nature of an NFL team.

However, at some point, the roster is good enough, even with weaknesses, and it becomes the coaching staff's responsibility to take it the rest of the way, and the GMs responsibility to hold the coaching staff responsible. I'm not sure if the Packers are there yet, but they are close.

[hoosier]

Considering in the span of five years he rebuilt 54 of 62 roster spots (active and IR in 2009) with players he brought in, replaced a HOF QB, made the playoffs a couple times and has a young team good enough to have 11 wins in the current season, I think TT has done a very good job. Good enough to call him one of the better GMs in the league. Rebuilding a team to that extent, especially when QB is part of the rebuild, and not go through consecutive seasons that are abysmal, is no easy task. While the record in 2008 was not good, the team was competitive. There was really only one bad season.

Thompson has accomplished a heck of a lot, but there is still more to do. There will always be more to do because of the ever changing nature of an NFL team.

However, at some point, the roster is good enough, even with weaknesses, and it becomes the coaching staff's responsibility to take it the rest of the way, and the GMs responsibility to hold the coaching staff responsible. I'm not sure if the Packers are there yet, but they are close.

I think they are there in every respect except possibly for OL, which remains a bit of a mystery: have TTs recent picks failed to develop the way Wolf's picks did with Lovat and Beightol because of lack of talent or insufficient coaching? Even if coaching is primarily to blame, TT still needs to find the LT of the future before I feel comfortable with the talent level there.

[Smidgeon]

We'll see. He hasn't really done well at the positions that do matter most: The line.

Pro Bowl QB? WR? Pass rushing LB in the 3-4? #1 run defense DL? Pro Bowl Safety? DPOY CB? 1250 yard RB with 0 fumbles?

I think until the team is perfect people will always find a gripe if they want to find one. TT has drafted many on the O-line. He hasn't drafted one in round 1 yet, but everywhere from round 2 to eternity he's looked to upgrade that line, including free agency (just not the ones that in retrospect worked out for other teams).

[Bossman641]

We'll see. He hasn't really done well at the positions that do matter most: The line.

Pro Bowl QB? WR? Pass rushing LB in the 3-4? #1 run defense DL? Pro Bowl Safety? DPOY CB? 1250 yard RB with 0 fumbles?

I think until the team is perfect people will always find a gripe if they want to find one. TT has drafted many on the O-line. He hasn't drafted one in round 1 yet, but everywhere from round 2 to eternity he's looked to upgrade that line, including free agency (just not the ones that in retrospect worked out for other teams).

I agree. It always cracks me up when people rip on TT's draft choices. Have they been perfect? No, but no GM is. And when you look at how his picks have stacked up next to other teams it really isn't even close.

[Sparkey]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

He needs to acquire the talent to win a Super Bowl and build a consistent winner before he can even be considered one of the best.

By that standard, Bill Polian isn't much of a gm either. Event though his eye for talent got the Bills to the Super Bowl four years in a row. :?

[Fritz]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

He needs to acquire the talent to win a Super Bowl and build a consistent winner before he can even be considered one of the best.

By that standard, Bill Polian isn't much of a gm either. Event though his eye for talent got the Bills to the Super Bowl four years in a row. :?

If that's your standard to be one of the best, then who are the best? Teams who have won a Super Bowl and consistently won from season to season?

I listed several teams earlier in this thread. The only ones that seem to fit your criteria are New England and Indy. So by "best" or "one of the best" do you mean, then, top two? Top three?

[Bretsky]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

He needs to acquire the talent to win a Super Bowl and build a consistent winner before he can even be considered one of the best.


ditto; I'll annoint him as a king after he earns the crown

Nobody said he was THE best; the phrase was "one of the best."

I think he is one of the best GM's in the NFL. He's better than "okay" or even "pretty good."

How many are better? Does New England's GM count since so many claim it's the coach who runs the show?

Let's see...Indianapolis has a GM who's gotten the team to the SB a couple times lately. Minnesota's GM - is that Spielburg? - could be said to be better based on the past year, though Thompson got the pieces to get GB to the same NFC championship game three years ago. San Diego? Nope, no Super Bowl. New Orleans? Maybe. Pittsburgh? Good organization, but for those pointing fingers at Thompson's up-and-down record, how do you account for Pittsburgh's up-and-down seasons? Arizona? Dallas? Baltimore? Have those teams gotten further than Green Bay?

No, Thompson can't be said to be the best GM in the NFL. No Super Bowl appearance, no consistent streak of playoff runs yet. But I think it's fairly safe to say he's one of the top five in the NFL.



TOP 5 ? Don't buy that he's warranted that argument. I'd give him top 10. Indy, Pittsburg, Giants, Vikings, Saints, come off the top of my head for starters as sticking out well. San Diego personnell wise would have to be graded out more consistent. Perhaps New England..And I'm sure you could throw in a few others into that mix. But I'm not annointing him top 5 quite yet.

Not complaining either; he's done a very good job.

[Packers4Ever]

I'm disappointed that the media still wants to stir up trouble between Favre and The Packers.


They will never give up,

count on it !! :roll:

[pbmax]

I'm disappointed that the media still wants to stir up trouble between Favre and The Packers.


They will never give up,

count on it !! :roll:
Come on you two. Even Mike Holmgren today on the radio said he felt the problem could have been averted if there had been better communication between the two sides. While I think Mike is putting a happy face on it (it was closer to a standoff IMHO), even someone who knows the principals doesn't think this is over. The media didn't invent this. The two parties involved let it develop and failed to appreciate what the fallout would be (or didn't care because they thought they were right). Their stories will always be linked and Thompson will only top that story if he delivers a Super Bowl.

I doubt either side feels its owed an apology from the media over the constant coverage. And I would suspect that if they ever expressed this feeling that it would most likely be a ploy to leverage outlets to cover it less. Of course, if Mrs. Favre continues to take pictures with relatives in THANKSTED jerseys, then those requests will fall on deaf ears.

BTW, it was an incredible sense of deja vu listening to Holmgren on the radio. Same guy, same presence. Seems excited about his new job.

[Gunakor]

Nobody said he was THE best; the phrase was "one of the best."

I think he is one of the best GM's in the NFL. He's better than "okay" or even "pretty good."

How many are better? Does New England's GM count since so many claim it's the coach who runs the show?

Let's see...Indianapolis has a GM who's gotten the team to the SB a couple times lately. Minnesota's GM - is that Spielburg? - could be said to be better based on the past year, though Thompson got the pieces to get GB to the same NFC championship game three years ago. San Diego? Nope, no Super Bowl. New Orleans? Maybe. Pittsburgh? Good organization, but for those pointing fingers at Thompson's up-and-down record, how do you account for Pittsburgh's up-and-down seasons? Arizona? Dallas? Baltimore? Have those teams gotten further than Green Bay?

No, Thompson can't be said to be the best GM in the NFL. No Super Bowl appearance, no consistent streak of playoff runs yet. But I think it's fairly safe to say he's one of the top five in the NFL.



TOP 5 ? Don't buy that he's warranted that argument. I'd give him top 10. Indy, Pittsburg, Giants, Vikings, Saints, come off the top of my head for starters as sticking out well. San Diego personnell wise would have to be graded out more consistent. Perhaps New England..And I'm sure you could throw in a few others into that mix. But I'm not annointing him top 5 quite yet.

Not complaining either; he's done a very good job.

I think it's pretty safe to say Thompson is top 5. He's almost completely turned over this roster in a very, very short amount of time and is still making playoff pushes. This is his team now, not the one he inherited. His very first two draft picks as the Packers GM are both playing in Miami this weekend. His first big name FA signing declined to go, but he did win Defensive Player of the Year. I'm just saying, wherever he's mined talent from during his time here in Green Bay he's struck gold.

Thompson has been named Executive of the Year twice in the past 3 seasons now. There's a reason for that. Once could be a fluke, but twice in 3 years is establishing a trend. I wouldn't call him the very best in the NFL either, but top 5 is not that far of a reach.

[swede]

I think it's pretty safe to say Thompson is top 5.

Thompson has been named Executive of the Year twice in the past 3 seasons now. There's a reason for that. Once could be a fluke, but twice in 3 years is establishing a trend. I wouldn't call him the very best in the NFL either, but top 5 is not that far of a reach.



I'm inclined to agree, but I think that others who'd drop him down three or four spots (I'm not counting those who would drop him 27 spots) have some ammunition to make pretty good arguments for the slightly lower ranking.

Offensive line: TT has paid particularly close attention to the offensive line during his drafts without a great deal of depth to show for his efforts. It continues to be a huge concern going into next year, and I wonder if he has considered making changes to either his scouting department or McCarthy's coaching staff in order to fix the problem. I'll dig into past drafts to find out how many picks he's made on the offensive line vs. how many remain on the team. His wide receivers and tight ends are sticking at a much higher rate I would think.

Special Teams: Have sucked and do suck in most areas. Coaching or personnel? Whatever it is he's not getting it fixed after multiple do-overs.

Defensive Backs: I'll cut him some slack on this one because this unit has operated really well at times. But we just lost a playoff game 51-42 and the opposing quarterback shredded our passing defense. As with the offensive line, huge questions remain in terms of how to replace our aging veterans.

[Gunakor]

But we just lost a playoff game 51-42 and the opposing quarterback shredded our passing defense.

It's tough to win a playoff game against a dangerous pass happy offense led by a potential HOF quarterback and WR when 3 of your top 5 cornerbacks are on IR.

[Pugger]

But we just lost a playoff game 51-42 and the opposing quarterback shredded our passing defense.

It's tough to win a playoff game against a dangerous pass happy offense led by a potential HOF quarterback and WR when 3 of your top 5 cornerbacks are on IR.

+1

Our ST was starting to come around as far as our coverage units are concerned. I'm hoping Crosby just had a bad year and that he'll come around in 2010. Unfortunately we had poor punting (it seems like we are still trying to replace Hentrick!) and Jordy Nelson has no business being back there returning kicks and punts! But every team has issues. No team, even the 2 still remaining in the hunt - is perfect. The trick is to have the fewest issues and most wins in Febuary.

[Bretsky]

But we just lost a playoff game 51-42 and the opposing quarterback shredded our passing defense.

It's tough to win a playoff game against a dangerous pass happy offense led by a potential HOF quarterback and WR when 3 of your top 5 cornerbacks are on IR.


Harris is missed; devoid of any quality depth in the secondary we could not afford to lose Harris, or Woodsen.

As for the other two you are noting...neither has really shown much and I'm not convinced we had a capable #4 or #5 to step up if the top players were injured. And we had plenty of time to look for players instead of the developmental squad IMO

[Smidgeon]

But we just lost a playoff game 51-42 and the opposing quarterback shredded our passing defense.

It's tough to win a playoff game against a dangerous pass happy offense led by a potential HOF quarterback and WR when 3 of your top 5 cornerbacks are on IR.


Harris is missed; devoid of any quality depth in the secondary we could not afford to lose Harris, or Woodsen.

As for the other two you are noting...neither has really shown much and I'm not convinced we had a capable #4 or #5 to step up if the top players were injured. And we had plenty of time to look for players instead of the developmental squad IMO

The other two players are nothing, but the argument is that they're (presumably) better than what was on the field. At some point in the season they had shown the coaches they were better players than Bush or Bell at least since both were seeing the field before they were. So even if Lee and Blackman were nothing in general, the idea is they were better than who was on the field, and that has to count for something (even if it's a sliver).

[Gunakor]

But we just lost a playoff game 51-42 and the opposing quarterback shredded our passing defense.

It's tough to win a playoff game against a dangerous pass happy offense led by a potential HOF quarterback and WR when 3 of your top 5 cornerbacks are on IR.


Harris is missed; devoid of any quality depth in the secondary we could not afford to lose Harris, or Woodsen.

As for the other two you are noting...neither has really shown much and I'm not convinced we had a capable #4 or #5 to step up if the top players were injured. And we had plenty of time to look for players instead of the developmental squad IMO

And just who was sitting there unemployed that would have been better than Bush or Bell that we could have simply signed to our roster so that Kurt Warner's magical day wouldn't have happened? A bunch of 50 year old has beens and a bunch of other unprovens just like Pat Lee and Brandon Underwood. I'm not convinced there were any unemployed corners that could have helped us anyway. Solid corners don't just grow on trees waiting to be picked up mid season by any and every team that suffers an injury in their defensive backfield.

You might not be convinced that Underwood and Lee are better players than Bush and Bell, but the coaches were. Hence Underwood and Lee being ahead of Bush and Bell on the depth chart. That you haven't seen them play doesn't make them any worse than Bush or Bell. Can't get much worse than that from my perspective. So call it like it is - 3 of our top 5 corners were on IR and as it was our #6 cornerback to start the season saw extensive playing time against one of the most dangerous passing attacks in football. Shit happens.

[The Leaper]

By that standard, Bill Polian isn't much of a gm either. Event though his eye for talent got the Bills to the Super Bowl four years in a row. :?

When TT even GETS to a Super Bowl, let me know. Until then, let's stop comparing Thompson to some of the elite executives in the league. My point was in reference to Thompson, who has yet to develop a team that can consistently win 10+ wins a year. How that got twisted into a slight on Polian has me scratching my head.

You don't agree that Thompson has yet to produce a consistent winning roster? Polian did a long time ago...his credentials are obviously far superior to Thompson's. That was my whole point. Thompson is NOT an elite GM yet.

:roll: :roll:

[The Leaper]

If that's your standard to be one of the best, then who are the best? Teams who have won a Super Bowl and consistently won from season to season?

I listed several teams earlier in this thread. The only ones that seem to fit your criteria are New England and Indy. So by "best" or "one of the best" do you mean, then, top two? Top three?

Can any of you read? Seriously. Where the hell did I say Thompson had to WIN a Super Bowl?

IMO, Thompson has yet to build a roster even CAPABLE of winning a title. How anyone can put him in the TOP 5 of NFL GM's is beyond me. Great teams typically have great line play...yet Thompson seems clueless in terms of how to improve our OL. He has to keep hanging on to Clifton and Tauscher because he is unable to assemble any talent himself. We have no depth in the defensive secondary, which is unacceptable if you want to win a title against QBs like Warner, Manning, Brees, Favre, etc. Does a top 5 GM keep BUSH around for as long as Thompson has? I'm not a top 5 GM, and even I know that you can find someone on one of the other 31 practice squads better than Bush. Thompson's handling of the punter situation is another major black mark. He has an annoying habit of creating holes on the roster without someone to fill it.

Thompson still has a ways to go to prove himself in my book. He's not a bad GM. But top 5? You are nuts.

[Joemailman]

There are 2 things that TT has to do to be considered an elite GM. First, he has to put together a quality OL for the long term. This year's OL was held together by 3 guys (Clifton, Tauscher, Wells) whom he inherited. Two of them are on their last legs. He needs to prove he can replace them.

Second, MM has to prove that TT hired the right coach. We know he can get this team into the playoffs. He needs to prove he can get this team into the Super Bowl before TT can be considered an elite GM.

[The Leaper]

As for the other two you are noting...neither has really shown much and I'm not convinced we had a capable #4 or #5 to step up if the top players were injured. And we had plenty of time to look for players instead of the developmental squad IMO

I agree...and the fact that Bush even made the roster is a major concern IMO. That guy is not an NFL caliber DB. He doesn't belong on ANY roster, least of all ours.

[The Leaper]

Second, MM has to prove that TT hired the right coach. We know he can get this team into the playoffs. He needs to prove he can get this team into the Super Bowl before TT can be considered an elite GM.

I agree with this too...McCarthy hasn't shown me enough yet. He loves to hang on to his "friends" rather than upgrading his coaching staff when he has a chance. Our defense was improved with Capers only because McCarthy was FORCED to get a new DC. I'm underwhelmed with some of his assistants.

[pbmax]

Second, MM has to prove that TT hired the right coach. We know he can get this team into the playoffs. He needs to prove he can get this team into the Super Bowl before TT can be considered an elite GM.

I agree with this too...McCarthy hasn't shown me enough yet. He loves to hang on to his "friends" rather than upgrading his coaching staff when he has a chance. Our defense was improved with Capers only because McCarthy was FORCED to get a new DC. I'm underwhelmed with some of his assistants.
Please explained what you mean by forced. By the circumstance of playing horrible defense or by the demand of his GM.

[pbmax]

There are 2 things that TT has to do to be considered an elite GM. First, he has to put together a quality OL for the long term. This year's OL was held together by 3 guys (Clifton, Tauscher, Wells) whom he inherited. Two of them are on their last legs. He needs to prove he can replace them.

Second, MM has to prove that TT hired the right coach. We know he can get this team into the playoffs. He needs to prove he can get this team into the Super Bowl before TT can be considered an elite GM.
That statement about the OL being "saved" by Wells, Tausch and Clifton is a little misleading. Sitton was the best player on the line this year according to McGinn. And Spitz beat Wells for the starting job. Both of those starters are Thompson. Injuries are part of the game and much to the surprise of everyone, Thompson kept Wells, when everyone else had him cut. He gets a point for that as well.

In addition, by the time Clifton returned from injury, they had discovered Lang could play left tackle as a backup better than Colledge. The left tackle catastrophe was partially the result of the coaching staff not knowing that Colledge could not cut it anymore and that Lang needed to be the backup. Thompson should get dinged for not having other options (besides Moll and Meredith), but remember it took Wolf four bodies and four high draft picks (Michels, Verba, Wahle and Clifton) to find a long term replacement for Ruetggers. The real question is why Wolf could find a spot for Bruce Wilkerson and T2 cannot?

Tauscher I will give you. Maybe he is Thompson's Wilkerson. Lang could have held down the fort (Barbre has to be on the coaching staff) but he was also needed at Left Tackle so they were one complete body short. This also makes Breno Giacomini look like a luxury on the roster and inactive each game.

[Fritz]

Giacomini seems to be the mystery tramp in all of this. It's not quite on a par of holding a roster spot open for a backup punter, but it's costly to carry a developmental guy at a position in which you needed immediate help.

Perhaps the coaching staff and GM vastly overestimated Barbre's ability to perform consistently.

[Joemailman]

There are 2 things that TT has to do to be considered an elite GM. First, he has to put together a quality OL for the long term. This year's OL was held together by 3 guys (Clifton, Tauscher, Wells) whom he inherited. Two of them are on their last legs. He needs to prove he can replace them.

Second, MM has to prove that TT hired the right coach. We know he can get this team into the playoffs. He needs to prove he can get this team into the Super Bowl before TT can be considered an elite GM.
Sitton was the best player on the line this year according to McGinn.
I agree

And Spitz beat Wells for the starting job. Both of those starters are Thompson. Injuries are part of the game and much to the surprise of everyone, Thompson kept Wells, when everyone else had him cut. He gets a point for that as well.
It's debatable as to whether Spitz "beat out" Wells. Some would say he was anointed.

In addition, by the time Clifton returned from injury, they had discovered Lang could play left tackle as a backup better than Colledge. The left tackle catastrophe was partially the result of the coaching staff not knowing that Colledge could not cut it anymore and that Lang needed to be the backup. Thompson should get dinged for not having other options (besides Moll and Meredith), but remember it took Wolf four bodies and four high draft picks (Michels, Verba, Wahle and Clifton) to find a long term replacement for Ruetggers. The real question is why Wolf could find a spot for Bruce Wilkerson and T2 cannot?
Largely agree, although the idea of having Colledge as the backup LT did not jibe with MM's stated intention of avoiding a "musical chairs" situation in the event of an injury

Tauscher I will give you. Maybe he is Thompson's Wilkerson. Lang could have held down the fort (Barbre has to be on the coaching staff) but he was also needed at Left Tackle so they were one complete body short. This also makes Breno Giacomini look like a luxury on the roster and inactive each game.
The fact that a third year draft pick like Barbre was worse than Will Whitticker as a rookie has to at least in part be on TT. I'm not even sure what to make of the Giaco situation.

[Bretsky]

If that's your standard to be one of the best, then who are the best? Teams who have won a Super Bowl and consistently won from season to season?

I listed several teams earlier in this thread. The only ones that seem to fit your criteria are New England and Indy. So by "best" or "one of the best" do you mean, then, top two? Top three?

Can any of you read? Seriously. Where the hell did I say Thompson had to WIN a Super Bowl?

IMO, Thompson has yet to build a roster even CAPABLE of winning a title. How anyone can put him in the TOP 5 of NFL GM's is beyond me. Great teams typically have great line play...yet Thompson seems clueless in terms of how to improve our OL. He has to keep hanging on to Clifton and Tauscher because he is unable to assemble any talent himself. We have no depth in the defensive secondary, which is unacceptable if you want to win a title against QBs like Warner, Manning, Brees, Favre, etc. Does a top 5 GM keep BUSH around for as long as Thompson has? I'm not a top 5 GM, and even I know that you can find someone on one of the other 31 practice squads better than Bush. Thompson's handling of the punter situation is another major black mark. He has an annoying habit of creating holes on the roster without someone to fill it.

Thompson still has a ways to go to prove himself in my book. He's not a bad GM. But top 5? You are nuts.


winner winner chicken dinner IMO :!:

[pbmax]

There are 2 things that TT has to do to be considered an elite GM. First, he has to put together a quality OL for the long term. This year's OL was held together by 3 guys (Clifton, Tauscher, Wells) whom he inherited. Two of them are on their last legs. He needs to prove he can replace them.

Second, MM has to prove that TT hired the right coach. We know he can get this team into the playoffs. He needs to prove he can get this team into the Super Bowl before TT can be considered an elite GM.
Sitton was the best player on the line this year according to McGinn.
I agree

And Spitz beat Wells for the starting job. Both of those starters are Thompson. Injuries are part of the game and much to the surprise of everyone, Thompson kept Wells, when everyone else had him cut. He gets a point for that as well.
It's debatable as to whether Spitz "beat out" Wells. Some would say he was anointed.

In addition, by the time Clifton returned from injury, they had discovered Lang could play left tackle as a backup better than Colledge. The left tackle catastrophe was partially the result of the coaching staff not knowing that Colledge could not cut it anymore and that Lang needed to be the backup. Thompson should get dinged for not having other options (besides Moll and Meredith), but remember it took Wolf four bodies and four high draft picks (Michels, Verba, Wahle and Clifton) to find a long term replacement for Ruetggers. The real question is why Wolf could find a spot for Bruce Wilkerson and T2 cannot?
Largely agree, although the idea of having Colledge as the backup LT did not jibe with MM's stated intention of avoiding a "musical chairs" situation in the event of an injury

Tauscher I will give you. Maybe he is Thompson's Wilkerson. Lang could have held down the fort (Barbre has to be on the coaching staff) but he was also needed at Left Tackle so they were one complete body short. This also makes Breno Giacomini look like a luxury on the roster and inactive each game.
The fact that a third year draft pick like Barbre was worse than Will Whitticker as a rookie has to at least in part be on TT. I'm not even sure what to make of the Giaco situation.

The Spitz/Wells coverage was a mixed bag of info. But McGinn said sometime in the middle of the year that Spitz had never looked so effective as he did at center. Given his draft round, I am assuming he was capable of more things than the very steady Wells. But the only coverage we got about it during the preseason was that Spitz seemed to be doing fine and Wells had never looked better. Then everyone expected Wells to be cut. Did they believe your take or was Spitz better and they didn't want to seem to slam Wells publicly after a very hard offseason where he did nothing wrong?

Everyone on the line has to have at least ONE other spot they could start in a pinch. There are only 10 lineman and only seven or eight of them are active on game day. Only the Left Tackle and Center are likely not to have to slide in case of injury.

I think the musical chairs line was meant to include training camp. In times past, the team had lineman regularly practicing at three and even four spots in some cases. He wanted practice to more closely mirror what they would be called upon to do in the season. Even in the non-musical chairs training camp, Lang played 3 spots and Colledge did get some time at the very end at LT.

Worse than Whitticker perhaps, but its a different position. He had no problem run blocking. It was entirely a matter of pass protection. And at RT, he was more exposed than a Guard.

[pbmax]

If that's your standard to be one of the best, then who are the best? Teams who have won a Super Bowl and consistently won from season to season?

I listed several teams earlier in this thread. The only ones that seem to fit your criteria are New England and Indy. So by "best" or "one of the best" do you mean, then, top two? Top three?

Can any of you read? Seriously. Where the hell did I say Thompson had to WIN a Super Bowl?

IMO, Thompson has yet to build a roster even CAPABLE of winning a title. How anyone can put him in the TOP 5 of NFL GM's is beyond me. Great teams typically have great line play...yet Thompson seems clueless in terms of how to improve our OL. He has to keep hanging on to Clifton and Tauscher because he is unable to assemble any talent himself. We have no depth in the defensive secondary, which is unacceptable if you want to win a title against QBs like Warner, Manning, Brees, Favre, etc. Does a top 5 GM keep BUSH around for as long as Thompson has? I'm not a top 5 GM, and even I know that you can find someone on one of the other 31 practice squads better than Bush. Thompson's handling of the punter situation is another major black mark. He has an annoying habit of creating holes on the roster without someone to fill it.

Thompson still has a ways to go to prove himself in my book. He's not a bad GM. But top 5? You are nuts.


winner winner chicken dinner IMO :!:
This team, in what for many was their first playoff game, needed one more play to go their way to beat the Cardinals. That was after the worst possible start the team could have had. On the road with a terrible start and backups for cornerbacks 2-4 and they should have won. That is an impressive effort, though it wasn't enough. That ultimate failure, however, was not the GM in this case.

If you don't think this team was capable of getting to the Super Bowl over the Saints, then I don't think you appreciate the talent on hand.

The QB had Pro Bowl numbers and should have gotten MVP and All Pro votes while playing behind a line that was pass blocking horribly. The last guy to do that? Randall Cunningham. You might also put Favre on the list if you think he made the 2007 pass blocking look better than it was, though Clifton and Tausch were much healthier and younger.

This team wasn't the waste of an opportunity that the Packers team that lost in Philly was. They still had to beat the Vikes. But they could have done it.

[Fritz]

If that's your standard to be one of the best, then who are the best? Teams who have won a Super Bowl and consistently won from season to season?

I listed several teams earlier in this thread. The only ones that seem to fit your criteria are New England and Indy. So by "best" or "one of the best" do you mean, then, top two? Top three?

Can any of you read? Seriously. Where the hell did I say Thompson had to WIN a Super Bowl?

IMO, Thompson has yet to build a roster even CAPABLE of winning a title. How anyone can put him in the TOP 5 of NFL GM's is beyond me. Great teams typically have great line play...yet Thompson seems clueless in terms of how to improve our OL. He has to keep hanging on to Clifton and Tauscher because he is unable to assemble any talent himself. We have no depth in the defensive secondary, which is unacceptable if you want to win a title against QBs like Warner, Manning, Brees, Favre, etc. Does a top 5 GM keep BUSH around for as long as Thompson has? I'm not a top 5 GM, and even I know that you can find someone on one of the other 31 practice squads better than Bush. Thompson's handling of the punter situation is another major black mark. He has an annoying habit of creating holes on the roster without someone to fill it.

Thompson still has a ways to go to prove himself in my book. He's not a bad GM. But top 5? You are nuts.


winner winner chicken dinner IMO :!:

Yes Leaper I can read. That's why I wrote "one of the best."

Couple of points: I did not say you said "had" to win; I asked you what your parameters were for including someone as a top GM.

Since you mention above "great line play," I'm thinking you would exclude the GM's of Pittsburgh and Arizona since Pittsburgh won a Super Bowl in spite of a very mediocre offensive line and Arizona got knocked out this year featuring a defensive line that gave up over, what, 80 points in two games?

Could you tell me please which practice squad defensive backs are so much better than Bush? No, I don't like Bush all that well, but he wasn't supposed to be the nickel back going into the season. That was Tramon Williams, who I think is a far better nickel back than the vast majority of nickel backs out there. Blackmon and Lee were the depth, but both got hurt. It's not like Thompson/McCarthy had Bush starting over Al Harris or playing in front of Tramon Williams. He was all that was left.

We disagree, obviously. I think Thompson is an excellent GM; you don't.

[The Shadow]

TT remains one of the best executives in pro football.

I agree. His peers seem to also concur; he has the hardware,

[Joemailman]

Thompson's handling of the punter situation is another major black mark. He has an annoying habit of creating holes on the roster without someone to fill it.


This is his greatest problem IMO. This year he released both Anthony Smith and Aaron Rouse when all he had on the bench were Derrick Martin and Jarrett Bush. Smith and Rouse may have had their weak points, but either one would have been preferable to Martin once Bigby got hurt. If he brings back Tauscher and Clifton, rather than just hoping the kids are ready to fill in, perhaps that will be a sign he has learned something in this area.

[Patler]

What is the fascination with Smith? He couldn't even hold onto a job in St. Louis.

[Fritz]

Smith and Rouse had weak points? Smith couldn't keep a job very long with any other NFL teams after the Packers released him. You sure he was better than Bush? Rouse continued to make the same mistakes with the Giants as he did with the Packers; beyond that, he's a safety not a corner like Bush was playing.

As the Leaper's point about great GM's = great lines, then this Doug Farrar quote concerning Bryant Mckinnie's being kicked off the NFC pro bowl team should be of interest: "The Vikings got to the NFC Championship despite their line, and everybody knows it."

This suggests Minny's GM is not one of the best, either.

[Joemailman]

It's not a fascination. Just a feeling that having a veteran to fill in is sometimes better than plugging in a guy who has barely played the position.

[Joemailman]

Smith and Rouse had weak points? Smith couldn't keep a job very long with any other NFL teams after the Packers released him. You sure he was better than Bush? Rouse continued to make the same mistakes with the Giants as he did with the Packers; beyond that, he's a safety not a corner like Bush was playing.

At that point of the season, our backup safeties were Martin and Bush. Even now, Bush is listed on the Packers roster as CB/S. Given Bigby's injuries in 2008, I don't think our backup safeties should have been 2 guys who had not started a game at that position. Others may be fine with that arrangement.

[Patler]

I'm not sure Wolf had anything more than an adequate O-line until the last one when he retired. Even the '96 team had two new starters from '95, gave up 40 sacks in the regular season and averaged 4.0 yards/carry rushing. His lines were anything but stable, with one or two new starters each and every year. Wolf gave the line a lot of lip service, drafted a lot of really good linemen, but didn't seem to have a lot of interest in keeping guards in particular. I never thought his lines were much more than "OK".

I have often wondered if Wolf would have worked as hard and spent as much money as Sherman did to keep Clifton, Wahle, Winters/Flanagan, Rivera and Tauscher together. He had no qualms about letting Taylor, Timmerman and Verba leave in a 4 year stretch. I suspect there would have been some changes along the way.

[Patler]

Smith and Rouse had weak points? Smith couldn't keep a job very long with any other NFL teams after the Packers released him. You sure he was better than Bush? Rouse continued to make the same mistakes with the Giants as he did with the Packers; beyond that, he's a safety not a corner like Bush was playing.

At that point of the season, our backup safeties were Martin and Bush. Even now, Bush is listed on the Packers roster as CB/S. Given Bigby's injuries in 2008, I don't think our backup safeties should have been 2 guys who had not started a game at that position. Others may be fine with that arrangement.

Smith was a restricted free agent, but the Steelers didn't even make him a qualifying offer. He was a 3rd round draft pick, so was given a lot of opportunities, yet in the end the Steelers had no interest in him at all. I'm not sure he was any better than players who never started before.

Rouse I'm not certain of, only because the Giants did stick with him through out the season.

[Bretsky]

What is the fascination with Smith? He couldn't even hold onto a job in St. Louis.


Well, TTT did put in a waiver claim for him as well

[Bretsky]

Smith and Rouse had weak points? Smith couldn't keep a job very long with any other NFL teams after the Packers released him. You sure he was better than Bush? Rouse continued to make the same mistakes with the Giants as he did with the Packers; beyond that, he's a safety not a corner like Bush was playing.

As the Leaper's point about great GM's = great lines, then this Doug Farrar quote concerning Bryant Mckinnie's being kicked off the NFC pro bowl team should be of interest: "The Vikings got to the NFC Championship despite their line, and everybody knows it."

This suggests Minny's GM is not one of the best, either.


I've never heard of Doug Farrar.......but how would you compare the line of MN to Green Bay position to position ? Come on.......they are not close

[Bretsky]

If that's your standard to be one of the best, then who are the best? Teams who have won a Super Bowl and consistently won from season to season?

I listed several teams earlier in this thread. The only ones that seem to fit your criteria are New England and Indy. So by "best" or "one of the best" do you mean, then, top two? Top three?

Can any of you read? Seriously. Where the hell did I say Thompson had to WIN a Super Bowl?

IMO, Thompson has yet to build a roster even CAPABLE of winning a title. How anyone can put him in the TOP 5 of NFL GM's is beyond me. Great teams typically have great line play...yet Thompson seems clueless in terms of how to improve our OL. He has to keep hanging on to Clifton and Tauscher because he is unable to assemble any talent himself. We have no depth in the defensive secondary, which is unacceptable if you want to win a title against QBs like Warner, Manning, Brees, Favre, etc. Does a top 5 GM keep BUSH around for as long as Thompson has? I'm not a top 5 GM, and even I know that you can find someone on one of the other 31 practice squads better than Bush. Thompson's handling of the punter situation is another major black mark. He has an annoying habit of creating holes on the roster without someone to fill it.

Thompson still has a ways to go to prove himself in my book. He's not a bad GM. But top 5? You are nuts.


winner winner chicken dinner IMO :!:

Yes Leaper I can read. That's why I wrote "one of the best."

Couple of points: I did not say you said "had" to win; I asked you what your parameters were for including someone as a top GM.

Since you mention above "great line play," I'm thinking you would exclude the GM's of Pittsburgh and Arizona since Pittsburgh won a Super Bowl in spite of a very mediocre offensive line and Arizona got knocked out this year featuring a defensive line that gave up over, what, 80 points in two games?

Could you tell me please which practice squad defensive backs are so much better than Bush? No, I don't like Bush all that well, but he wasn't supposed to be the nickel back going into the season. That was Tramon Williams, who I think is a far better nickel back than the vast majority of nickel backs out there. Blackmon and Lee were the depth, but both got hurt. It's not like Thompson/McCarthy had Bush starting over Al Harris or playing in front of Tramon Williams. He was all that was left.

We disagree, obviously. I think Thompson is an excellent GM; you don't.



Leaper can correct me if I'm wrong..........but............I don't think any of us are that far away.

I consider TTT a very good GM; top ten for sure. Not elite yet. Many consider him there already

[Bretsky]

Smith and Rouse had weak points? Smith couldn't keep a job very long with any other NFL teams after the Packers released him. You sure he was better than Bush? Rouse continued to make the same mistakes with the Giants as he did with the Packers; beyond that, he's a safety not a corner like Bush was playing.

As the Leaper's point about great GM's = great lines, then this Doug Farrar quote concerning Bryant Mckinnie's being kicked off the NFC pro bowl team should be of interest: "The Vikings got to the NFC Championship despite their line, and everybody knows it."

This suggests Minny's GM is not one of the best, either.


I'd take Smith over Bush any day of the week....unless you value the Special Team contributions of Bush that much. Maybe we kept him for the specials ? Cover guy.....Smith hands down.

Performance wise, in the preseason Smith looked every bit as good as Bigby and it was well documented how well he knew the defense. Players felt like he did well also........see comments from Woodsen...which were very uncharacteristic of him.

[pbmax]

Smith and Rouse had weak points? Smith couldn't keep a job very long with any other NFL teams after the Packers released him. You sure he was better than Bush? Rouse continued to make the same mistakes with the Giants as he did with the Packers; beyond that, he's a safety not a corner like Bush was playing.

As the Leaper's point about great GM's = great lines, then this Doug Farrar quote concerning Bryant Mckinnie's being kicked off the NFC pro bowl team should be of interest: "The Vikings got to the NFC Championship despite their line, and everybody knows it."

This suggests Minny's GM is not one of the best, either.


I've never heard of Doug Farrar.......but how would you compare the line of MN to Green Bay position to position ? Come on.......they are not close
No one, in the history of football has ever played position by position.

Packer's Adjusted Line Yards (Rushing) (footballoutsiders.com): 8th ranked at 4.29 yards

Vikings Adjusted Line Yards (Rushing): 20th, at 4.01 yards

And that is with Adrian Peterson/Chester Taylor versus Ryan Grant/Brandon Jackson. Tell me you thought the Packers were a better running team. Pass blocking its the reverse: Min 14th (average) and Green Bay 30th (horrible overall but far better in the 2nd half)

Here are some more things most people don't pay attention to when discussion the Packers O line:

Success in Power Rushing (short yardage and goal to go): 73% success 3rd ranked
Stuffed (tackled at or short of LOS): 16% of attempts, ranked 4th

[Patler]

What is the fascination with Smith? He couldn't even hold onto a job in St. Louis.


Well, TTT did put in a waiver claim for him as well

Which would have made him what, their 6th, 7th or 8th safety for the year and maybe their 16th-18th DB of the season? Doesn't mean very much that they put in a claim at that time.

[Joemailman]

Except it might mean by then that they realized he was better than Derrick Martin.

[mraynrand]

Smith and Rouse had weak points? Smith couldn't keep a job very long with any other NFL teams after the Packers released him. You sure he was better than Bush? Rouse continued to make the same mistakes with the Giants as he did with the Packers; beyond that, he's a safety not a corner like Bush was playing.

As the Leaper's point about great GM's = great lines, then this Doug Farrar quote concerning Bryant Mckinnie's being kicked off the NFC pro bowl team should be of interest: "The Vikings got to the NFC Championship despite their line, and everybody knows it."

This suggests Minny's GM is not one of the best, either.


I've never heard of Doug Farrar.......but how would you compare the line of MN to Green Bay position to position ? Come on.......they are not close
No one, in the history of football has ever played position by position.

Packer's Adjusted Line Yards (Rushing) (footballoutsiders.com): 8th ranked at 4.29 yards

Vikings Adjusted Line Yards (Rushing): 20th, at 4.01 yards

And that is with Adrian Peterson/Chester Taylor versus Ryan Grant/Brandon Jackson. Tell me you thought the Packers were a better running team. Pass blocking its the reverse: Min 14th (average) and Green Bay 30th (horrible overall but far better in the 2nd half)

Here are some more things most people don't pay attention to when discussion the Packers O line:

Success in Power Rushing (short yardage and goal to go): 73% success 3rd ranked
Stuffed (tackled at or short of LOS): 16% of attempts, ranked 4th

More proof that the Vikings failed to surround Favre with the talent he needed to win.

THANKSRICK

[Patler]

Except it might mean by then that they realized he was better than Derrick Martin.

I don't think so. TT put in the claim for Smith when Derrick Martin was out with a concussion. Collins was dinged up and Bigby was back only a couple weeks from having missed three games. That's why TT was looking for another safety.

If TT was going to replace a safety with Smith, it likely would have been Giordano, not Martin. Martin was considered a staple on special teams.

[Scott Campbell]

Except it might mean by then that they realized he was better than Derrick Martin.


It's hard to get overly excited about those borderline players at the bottom of the roster. I remember how it seemed that Aaron Rouse somehow became more valuable once he was starting for the Giants - like Ted had suddenly made a huge blunder. But he was still the same crappy player he was when he was here. Some of these guys always look better in another teams colors.

[Pugger]

It is kinda funny how these marginal players are ignored when we cut them but then some fans howl when another team picks them up off the street afterwards like we somehow lost an All-Pro or something. :roll: