For me to continue my support of Thompson........

[RashanGary]

I'm going to focus almost all of my attention on the draft. FA is important. I think he made 1 mistake with Wahle but other than that he has been very solid. So far I give him a B but that is only a small portion of the overall grade. The majority will come from the draft.



For each one Thompson hits on we can give him 1 point. If he gets 13-15 we'll be well on our way to a superbowl. If he gets 10-12 we have a solid base but need to have a special thing or two happen down the road. Anything less than 9 and I am completely out of Thompsons corner. I'm not backing him because I think he's average. I'm backing him because I think he's going to be one of the best in the league.

1. Rodgers pans out
2. Rodgers pans out
3. #5 is a star
4. #5 is a star
5. #5 is a star
6. Murphy pans out
7. Collins develops into a borderline probowler like McKeinzie
8. The remainder of his 1st draft become a solid base and depth on the team
9. The second pick this year is a borderline probowler like Mac
10. The latter portion of this years draft is solid
11. McCarthy is a good coach
12. McCarthy is a good coach
13. He doesn't have any bad contracts signed that hurt the team
14. He either uses or carries over most of the cap space in creative ways
15. He finds more good players like Gado and Lee out of no where

After this year we should be starting to get a general picture of what Thompsons grade is. It's definitly going to take a little more time than two season but these are the things I'm looking for that will be signs of our chances of a great team within the next 4-8 years. If some of this doesn't look to be materializing I will back the hell out of his corner faster than you can say polar-bear. There are no real signs that Thompson has done a bad job yet but he has put himself out there and he better have a great draft this year or his time will be pretty short served.

I'm by no means backing out of his corner yet but I'm just stating that I'm not blind to the possibility that he falls flat on his face. He sure isn't taking the safe route I'll tell you that much.

[Partial]

They will have a chance to add two or three really good players in this draft. The problem is I don't think they're at super important positions.

What they should do is trade that 4th to the browns for Faine. That is an incredible deal in my eyes.

They should trade down in the 2nd and acquire and extra 3rd. They should then take Davin Joseph.

The addition of Joseph and Faine solidifies the offensive line. They can let all the other prospects duke it out for the open starting spot.

They should draft Brandon Williams wherever they can get him. He is a special teams demon!!

They should also try and address the DE spot. You can never have too much depth there. Hopefully KPeterson and MMontgomery can stop the run and be solid on running downs.

[Fritz]

Good thread, and I'm glad that I'm not the only one defending TT. I'm with you - the jury's still out. But that's the point. It's too early to be as critical as some people are, I think. Yes, I wish he'd have re-signed Wahle, but let's say he did. What might last year's record be, then? 6-10, maybe? Is Wahle alone worth two victories? If so, then would people exonerate TT? Probably not.

I think TT inherited Sherman's lousy drafting for what, the past four years? Kampman and Barnett on defense and Walker on offense; that's the sum total of four years worth of drafts. Injuries to Poppinga and Murphy damaged the chances of many rookies contributing, so we'll have to wait and see if others (like Coston) pan out.

Two years from now, if they still suck, then I'll be right in the middle of the mob. But for now, I think he's going to be fine.

[swede]

Nick, you, like your namesake, are the up-and-coming man.

The thing I like about your post is that, in a sense, you are acknowledging TT has gone about this off-season exactly the way we thought he would. The only indication we've ever had is that TT would build through the draft and not Free Agency. (And, if in someone's opinion TT didn't do enough last year to win you may examine Blue Dawg's weasel theory in which TT hangs Shermy by his own rope, letting him play out the string with the talentless team Sherm himself had put together. Weasely, perhaps, but all within the long range plan.) We must measure TT's success by the combined performance of last year's draft, this year's draft, the contribution of the new free agents, and the new coaching staff. You really can't rip on TT for whom he didn't pick up. Judge him by how well this year's players perform. If this team wins ten games with Favre or nine without him I'd say we're back on track and looking up. If we only win 5-7 games there will definitely be some heated deliberations and TT hating.

This is one of the best posts I've seen in a while. Give me a day or two. I'll going bend my mind around this and come up with a similar post to pop into this thread.

[Fritz]

You're on the mark, methinks, Swede. I say TT has two years to turn it around. If in April of 2008 we're stuck in neutral, then TT has failed. But you've got to give him the next two seasons to see how his first couple of drafts will turn out.

[swede]

One other quick point. Somehow we need to rebuild an offensive line through spare parts. Can we get another Tauscher-like sleeper in the draft? Is there another decent body left in FA? I think addressing the offensive line is worth another couple of points.

[Fritz]

What I find interesting is that no one seems to have considered that Whitticker and/or Wells and maybe even Coston might pan out. Rivera didn't even start his first year; Wahle sucked his first year as he was rather immature. It may not be likely but it's possible that two of those three guys could become very solid starters. Decent this year, then good after that.

I think Coston's going to be a player in this league.

[LEWCWA]

I agree. I think Wells is going to be a very good player for a lot of years. Coston has high expectations and well I just don't know about Whitticker(sp). He seems to be very talented and very lazy! White has some raw potential as I hear it as well....You have to give these guys a chance to play and not keep bringing in other teams leftovers. We will find out soon enough if they are players....So this we haven't done anything in FA is total BS. We resigned some of our own guys, and brought in a couple players to compete, REGGIE wasn't in this FA class....

[woodbuck27]

[quote="Partial

"What they should do is trade that 4th to the browns for Faine. That is an incredible deal in my eyes."

woodbuck27:I agree He is young experienced versatile and plays the Zone blocking Scheme. This fella was a 1st Round pick I believe as well.

"They should trade down in the 2nd and acquire and extra 3rd. They should then take Davin Joseph.

The addition of Joseph and Faine solidifies the offensive line. They can let all the other prospects duke it out for the open starting spot."

woodbuck27: Nice option there too.

"They should draft Brandon Williams wherever they can get him. He is a special teams demon!!"

woodbuck27 : Draft a WR or CB that also is a gifted kick returner as a priority. We may have lost T.Murphy

They should also try and address the DE spot. You can never have too much depth there. Hopefully KPeterson and MMontgomery can stop the run and be solid on running downs.[/quote]

woodbuck27 : What is best avail. at the pick? but . . yes generally to another DE.

I tried to address the same things in my draft selections (excluding a trade down)

[HarveyWallbangers]

Wood,

We have to learn ya how to use the quote functionality properly.
:D

[Bretsky]

I agree. I think Wells is going to be a very good player for a lot of years. Coston has high expectations and well I just don't know about Whitticker(sp). He seems to be very talented and very lazy! White has some raw potential as I hear it as well....You have to give these guys a chance to play and not keep bringing in other teams leftovers. We will find out soon enough if they are players....So this we haven't done anything in FA is total BS. We resigned some of our own guys, and brought in a couple players to compete, REGGIE wasn't in this FA class....

You are relying on way too many unknowns here. We have three wide open positions on the OL, which is way too many. Depending on guys like Coston and White to develop into starters when they were not good enough to suit up last year is somehting I disagree with. The staff hyped up Atlas Herrion last year as a guy on the practice squad who would compete for a starting position. He was cut. Wells is no guarantee, and Coston and White don't even deserve 50-50 odds at this point.

We were a 4-12 team with 35MIL under the cap so resigning our own, sitting on excessive cap space, and replacing

Grady with Pickett
Roman with Manuel
Diggs with Ben flippin Taylor

doesn't cut it

[Partial]

Thats why we should trade our 4th for Faine, a proven comodity. We should draft Joseph in the bottom of the second via trade down for extra third, who steps in as an immediate impact starter. Let the other guys fight it out for the spot.

Viola! Line fixed.

[motife]

don't get a viola mixed up with a magdalin.

I doubt Vince Lombardi, Ron Wolf or Bill Parcells would ever pull a magician's cloth off their team and say "Voila!" but it's a great image.

[RashanGary]

I read somewhere that this is one of the deepest interior line drafts in a long time. I think we'll get some players between rounds 3-4. Also, the zone blocking scheme is easy on OG's.

I think we'll get at least one player out of Coston, Whittaker, Wells and White. We should get 2 out of there acctually. So we're one solid piece missing for sure. Hopefully the draft pans out in a way that there is a valuable OG sitting there for us in the 3rd round. We do need a little luck to hit rich quick you know. The natural path is a slower process but it can speed up quickly if value meets need which it rarely does.

[gex]

Very interesting read and alot of spot on posts. 8-)

[Fritz]

What I find interesting is that no one seems to have considered that Whitticker and/or Wells and maybe even Coston might pan out. Rivera didn't even start his first year; Wahle sucked his first year as he was rather immature. It may not be likely but it's possible that two of those three guys could become very solid starters. Decent this year, then good after that.

I think Coston's going to be a player in this league.

That Fritz, now he's got an eye for offensive line talent.

[RashanGary]

Hindsight, I was putting way too much stock into one draft. Damn.


Some of that didn't happen and I think we're well on our way to a SB right now. Thompson has been consistently good.

[Bretsky]

yes, I think he's been solid when looking at things overall. And one big thing I was wrong on.....is he's willing to admit it when he screws up and that is a trait of a winner.

[pbmax]

1. Rodgers pans out
2. Rodgers pans out
3. #5 is a star
4. #5 is a star
5. #5 is a star
6. Murphy pans out
7. Collins develops into a borderline probowler like McKeinzie
8. The remainder of his 1st draft become a solid base and depth on the team
9. The second pick this year is a borderline probowler like Mac
10. The latter portion of this years draft is solid
11. McCarthy is a good coach
12. McCarthy is a good coach
13. He doesn't have any bad contracts signed that hurt the team
14. He either uses or carries over most of the cap space in creative ways
15. He finds more good players like Gado and Lee out of no where

1. +1
2. +1
3. 0
4. 0
5 0
6. 0
7. +1 (Pro Bowl 2008)
8. +1 (3 starters and one key backup)
9. +1 (Best lineman on the team)
10. +1 (5 players are starting from this draft, T2 just turned another into a safety who has started for a top 5 defense)
11. +1
12. +1
13. +1 (can I give him two for this?)
14. +1 (can I give him three for this?)
15. +1 (Evan Dietrich Smith-FA, John Kuhn-waivers, Atari Bigby-FA, Tramon Williams-FA, Sperncer Havner-FA,)

That's 11. Ted passes Go. Gets 2 year extension.

[rbaloha1]

TT rescued the franchise from Sherman's ineptness.

[gbgary]

TT rescued the franchise from Sherman's ineptness.

yup. he's proven to be a football genius. he's survived the brett issue in flying colors and we're all pumped up for the upcoming season (knocking on wood). if he can get us a SB soon he'll be a football god...like ron wolf. :)

[Partial]

Ted has done a pretty good job so far. Wish he was more loyal to Packer veterans, but thats really my only complaint. Now we need to see the results show up on the field.

[Deputy Nutz]

1 trip to the playoffs in 4 years.

They missed the playoffs three times under Wolf, and I don't believe they ever missed the playoffs under Sherman.

1992 miss, 1999 miss, 2000 miss.

Thompson
2005 miss, 2006 miss, 2008 miss.

[Waldo]

TT rescued the franchise from Sherman's ineptness.

TT is ept.

It is a positive sign when teams are chasing after our cuts, and steal players from our PS.

Most players TT has drafted are still in this league in some capacity, even if they aren't Packers.

I give TT a mulligan for last year, and consider him batting .500 with the playoffs.

The Favre situation, injury situation, and poor defensive coaching is hard to pin on TT. If he let McCarthy continue with the defensive coaching there definitely should be some questions, but Mac clearly saw the problem too and rectified it.

[pbmax]

Wolf hired Holmgren, who was one year (maybe two) past being the hottest coordinator on the market (he turned someone down to return to SanFran). He had enough of a name and contacts to lure very bright O coaches and get a good DC in Rhodes.

McCarthy was nowhere near as hot, in fact his best year in buzz was probably the year after he took Aaron Brooks to the playoffs in 2000 as his OC. He had a couple of interesting interviews (that made the papers anyway) for DC before deciding on Bob Sanders. He didn't exactly have his pick from among Hall of Fame candidates.

I think he gets the job done on the offensive side. But did Thompson miscalculate in hiring a relative unknown who still needed to find a DC when he got hired? You can argue it cost us several opportunities.

[swede]

Wolf hired Holmgren, who was one year (maybe two) past being the hottest coordinator on the market (he turned someone down to return to SanFran). He had enough of a name and contacts to lure very bright O coaches and get a good DC in Rhodes.

McCarthy was nowhere near as hot, in fact his best year in buzz was probably the year after he took Aaron Brooks to the playoffs in 2000 as his OC. He had a couple of interesting interviews (that made the papers anyway) for DC before deciding on Bob Sanders. He didn't exactly have his pick from among Hall of Fame candidates.

I think he gets the job done on the offensive side. But did Thompson miscalculate in hiring a relative unknown who still needed to find a DC when he got hired? You can argue it cost us several opportunities.

I think TT hired MM because he was the first guy who did not fall asleep as Ted made his presentation during the interview process, thus becoming "somebody I could work with."

[Partial]

Wolf hired Holmgren, who was one year (maybe two) past being the hottest coordinator on the market (he turned someone down to return to SanFran). He had enough of a name and contacts to lure very bright O coaches and get a good DC in Rhodes.

McCarthy was nowhere near as hot, in fact his best year in buzz was probably the year after he took Aaron Brooks to the playoffs in 2000 as his OC. He had a couple of interesting interviews (that made the papers anyway) for DC before deciding on Bob Sanders. He didn't exactly have his pick from among Hall of Fame candidates.

I think he gets the job done on the offensive side. But did Thompson miscalculate in hiring a relative unknown who still needed to find a DC when he got hired? You can argue it cost us several opportunities.

Good post, what sort of opportunites are you getting at here?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ted has done a pretty good job so far. Wish he was more loyal to Packer veterans, but thats really my only complaint. Now we need to see the results show up on the field.

For example?

[Brohm]

TT's actually taken care of a number of the vets: DD, Al Harris, Tausch (restrucred for a raise w/o extension), offered Green a reasonable contract, etc. Thing is those guys were starters. It's the 3rd/4th RB, 5th/6th receiver, rtc that he doesn't have a problem jettisoning if you are not improving and someone is ready to move up the rungs.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

TT's actually taken care of a number of the vets: DD, Al Harris, Tausch (restrucred for a raise w/o extension), offered Green a reasonable contract, etc. Thing is those guys were starters. It's the 3rd/4th RB, 5th/6th receiver, rtc that he doesn't have a problem jettisoning if you are not improving and someone is ready to move up the rungs.

Loyalty is just another subjective bullshit argument that allows one to posture.

[Partial]

Ted has done a pretty good job so far. Wish he was more loyal to Packer veterans, but thats really my only complaint. Now we need to see the results show up on the field.

For example?

Not giving Tauscher a chance to compete this year. Is he playing at all? If he's out thsi year, I would hope TT would give him a chance to compete next year as he has earned the right to retire a Packer.

The entire Favre fiasco. I believe that someone who has done so much for a franchise has the right to retire on his own terms as a Packer.

[Brohm]

Tauscher won't be ready until mid October at the earliest. The Farve situation was a debacle for all sides, but it looks like everyone now is where they want to be.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The entire Favre fiasco. I believe that someone who has done so much for a franchise has the right to retire on his own terms as a Packer.

Favre did retire on his own terms as a Packer. TT made it clear Favre was welcome to keep playing as long as Favre had the ability, TT never pressured the Legend.

What you meant to say is that Favre had the right to unretire on his own terms.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Ted has done a pretty good job so far. Wish he was more loyal to Packer veterans, but thats really my only complaint. Now we need to see the results show up on the field.

For example?

Not giving Tauscher a chance to compete this year. Is he playing at all? If he's out thsi year, I would hope TT would give him a chance to compete next year as he has earned the right to retire a Packer.

The entire Favre fiasco. I believe that someone who has done so much for a franchise has the right to retire on his own terms as a Packer.

Tauscher: Why hasn't he signed with another team? Think before you write.

Favre: He did retire a packer. Are you trying to say that favre should get to do whatever he wants? That's funny as Montana didn't, namath didn't, oj didn't, jim taylor didn't, etc.

Either way, this is again your opinion,and your definition of loyalty. 2 examples...both of them are poor.

[RashanGary]

1 trip to the playoffs in 4 years.

They missed the playoffs three times under Wolf, and I don't believe they ever missed the playoffs under Sherman.

1992 miss, 1999 miss, 2000 miss.

Thompson
2005 miss, 2006 miss, 2008 miss.

What are you trying to say?

[MJZiggy]

He's trying to say that with 3 playoff misses, right now Thompson is as good as Wolf.

[Scott Campbell]

Ted has done a pretty good job so far. Wish he was more loyal to Packer veterans, but thats really my only complaint. Now we need to see the results show up on the field.

For example?

Not giving Tauscher a chance to compete this year. Is he playing at all? If he's out thsi year, I would hope TT would give him a chance to compete next year as he has earned the right to retire a Packer.

The entire Favre fiasco. I believe that someone who has done so much for a franchise has the right to retire on his own terms as a Packer.


It's a business. I have no desire to ride guys like Ahman Green on the downside of their career. In a way Ted protected his legacy by not letting him stink up the joint.

[gex]

1 trip to the playoffs in 4 years.

They missed the playoffs three times under Wolf, and I don't believe they ever missed the playoffs under Sherman.

1992 miss, 1999 miss, 2000 miss.

Thompson
2005 miss, 2006 miss, 2008 miss.

Yup that about sums it up :wink:
We should make the playoffs and go deep in them this year tho.
If we don't, I wonder what the excuses will be.

[sheepshead]

1 trip to the playoffs in 4 years.

They missed the playoffs three times under Wolf, and I don't believe they ever missed the playoffs under Sherman.

1992 miss, 1999 miss, 2000 miss.

Thompson
2005 miss, 2006 miss, 2008 miss.

Yup that about sums it up :wink:
We should make the playoffs and go deep in them this year tho.
If we don't, I wonder what the excuses will be.

McCarthy gets whacked.

[ThunderDan]

The entire Favre fiasco. I believe that someone who has done so much for a franchise has the right to retire on his own terms as a Packer.

Hasn't this been discussed ad naseum in 500 other threads that this needs to be brought up again?

[Fritz]

1 trip to the playoffs in 4 years.

They missed the playoffs three times under Wolf, and I don't believe they ever missed the playoffs under Sherman.

1992 miss, 1999 miss, 2000 miss.

Thompson
2005 miss, 2006 miss, 2008 miss.

Yup that about sums it up :wink:
We should make the playoffs and go deep in them this year tho.
If we don't, I wonder what the excuses will be.

I have pondered this myself and in fact started a thread on this topic.

I'm saying it's because Jags left before he could fully teach the byzantine zone blocking scheme.

My excuse is ready to go. Just in case.

[mraynrand]

1 trip to the playoffs in 4 years.

They missed the playoffs three times under Wolf, and I don't believe they ever missed the playoffs under Sherman.

1992 miss, 1999 miss, 2000 miss.

Thompson
2005 miss, 2006 miss, 2008 miss.

Yup that about sums it up :wink:
We should make the playoffs and go deep in them this year tho.
If we don't, I wonder what the excuses will be.




I have pondered this myself and in fact started a thread on this topic.

I'm saying it's because Jags left before he could fully teach the byzantine zone blocking scheme.

My excuse is ready to go. Just in case.

I didn't vote in your poll:

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=18415&start=0

Because you didn't include the obvious: Poor Pad level. if the Packers fail, that will be their downfall.

[Fritz]

Ah, yes. Pad level. The obvious.

I missed that one, and I take full responsibility. We're going to get that corrected. For sure. This week.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Well, kudos to you for recognizing that.

[mraynrand]

Well, kudos to you for recognizing that.

Didn't you get the memo? It's 'Fiber One to you' now. This is a health conscious, aging nation that needs it's fiber.

http://www.viewpoints.com/images/review/2007/149/8/1180446212-039_full.jpg

[sharpe1027]

Well, kudos to you for recognizing that.

Didn't you get the memo? It's 'Fiber One to you' now. This is a health conscious, aging nation that needs it's fiber.


A fear that this memo never reached Wisconsin? Despite the aging factor, we are talking brat eating, beer drinking, Packer fans here.

[pbmax]

Wolf hired Holmgren, who was one year (maybe two) past being the hottest coordinator on the market (he turned someone down to return to SanFran). He had enough of a name and contacts to lure very bright O coaches and get a good DC in Rhodes.

McCarthy was nowhere near as hot, in fact his best year in buzz was probably the year after he took Aaron Brooks to the playoffs in 2000 as his OC. He had a couple of interesting interviews (that made the papers anyway) for DC before deciding on Bob Sanders. He didn't exactly have his pick from among Hall of Fame candidates.

I think he gets the job done on the offensive side. But did Thompson miscalculate in hiring a relative unknown who still needed to find a DC when he got hired? You can argue it cost us several opportunities.

Good post, what sort of opportunites are you getting at here?
If Sanders was doomed by scheme and lack of imagination/variation, then one could assume another, more skilled coordinator would have fielded a better defense. So perhaps the Giants don't get to 20 points, or we aren't 8-8 in '06.

The missed opportunities are what the team might have done with someone other than McCarthy and Sanders in Years 1-3. Could Thompson have hired someone better?

My answer is probably not for the offense. You could argue Sean Payton, but he has had similar trouble in New Orleans with his defense.

But in choosing McCarthy (or Payton, who had the Parcells coaching tree at his back) you ran the risk that as new coaches, their success might be dependent on attracting the right guy for defense. Holmgren already had that guy in his back pocket, and knew another when Rhodes bailed (Shurmur).

Payton might have had the Parcells phone book at his fingertips and he still dialed the wrong number. So McCarthy's experience is not unique. The question we must ask ourselves is if Thompson should have insisted on more experience in the D coordinator hire? Could the GM have insisted on better and still had a good working relationship with his coach?

[Deputy Nutz]

1 trip to the playoffs in 4 years.

They missed the playoffs three times under Wolf, and I don't believe they ever missed the playoffs under Sherman.

1992 miss, 1999 miss, 2000 miss.

Thompson
2005 miss, 2006 miss, 2008 miss.

What are you trying to say?

For all the fame and praise that Thompson gets, especially in the preseason he certainly hasn't had the record to back all of it up.

[sharpe1027]

For all the fame and praise that Thompson gets, especially in the preseason he certainly hasn't had the record to back all of it up.

He got all the praise after a 13-3 season and a trip to the NFC championship game. Before that and since, there have been plenty of detractors.

What is so wrong about looking at the specifics of what the Packers have been doing? I think it is a little more intersting than just adding up several years of W/L and calling it a day. Nearly all "supporters" agree that if they do not bounce back from last year, he should be on the hot seat.

Preaseason is all we have to go on, so people make projections based off of that. Take it for what it is worth, most of us understand the limitations of such projections.

[rbaloha1]

Fixing Sherman's mess takes time. Secondly, TT is responsible for assembling the talent not coaching it.

[Deputy Nutz]

Keep telling yourself that.

Are you blaming Sherman for 2008?

[mraynrand]

Fixing Sherman's mess takes time. Secondly, TT is responsible for assembling the talent not coaching it.

Is this a joke? Sherman is long gone. This is Thompson's 5th year and this squad is entirely Thompson's. Did you give Tom Braatz credit for the 1996 Packers?

[bobblehead]

Nutz, you are right, the toll is in the w/l record and while a GM gets the rebuilding to excuse his first 2 years (envelope one, blame previous regime), and he gets injuries and BF distraction to blame for last years dropoff he will have no viable excuse this season.

Either the packers win 10-12 games this season or its time to look in another direction. I've been a hard nosed TT supporter, and the 3 year progression to the NFC championship game was right on. You want to dismiss all that because the team faultered last season amidst one of the bigger controversies of my NFL lifetime and some big injuries to an unimaginative Defense.

Me? I'm willing to admit he MIGHT not be the guy, but I'm also going to wait out this season to find out, otherwise I might be pulling a partial next year and saying he suddenly showed great progress this year.

Remember, at the end of this season one of us is going to be right about TT and one is going to be wrong. But only one of us is painting himself into a corner by insisting TT sucks because he had 2 rebuilding seasons and if you toss out season number one where BF decided 23 picks wasn't quite enough, and we started the rebuilding process, they are an above .500 team. Yes, over the last 3 seasons we are OVER .500!! I think it is VERY fair to discount the first season under shermy. MM had the best record EVER in the NFL over his first 25 games as a head coach. We finished his first season strong. We made the NFC championship in his second. Last year we faltered amid a lot of controversy. Yea, I think this MM TT combo deserves another year before we write them off. Since MM has been the coach instead of the lame duck guy who TT was kinda stuck with at first we are 27-21. You can use the 4-12 year under shermy and while rebuilding having a QB that tossed 26? picks to hold against TT if you want, but the intellectual dishonesty (or lack of intellect) in that argument is...welll....

All that being said, we have to win this year or else its fair to say he isn't leading us in the right direction. But to be blasting him atm isn't quite fair. (or smart)

[mraynrand]

Either the packers win 10-12 games this season or its time to look in another direction.

There's not a chance in hell the Packers move on after this season unless there is a flat out 3-4 win collapse with locker room dissention, etc.

[KYPack]

Either the packers win 10-12 games this season or its time to look in another direction.

There's not a chance in hell the Packers move on after this season unless there is a flat out 3-4 win collapse with locker room dissention, etc.

Wouldn't another 6-10 punch MM's ticket?

I'd say he has to be .500 with a strong showing to keep his gig.

I don't think Murphy would blow them both up with a 6-10, but I think MM would go if he did produce those kind of results.

[bobblehead]

Either the packers win 10-12 games this season or its time to look in another direction.

There's not a chance in hell the Packers move on after this season unless there is a flat out 3-4 win collapse with locker room dissention, etc.

I don't THINK they would move on, but you never know. And I said its time, I didn't say it would happen. My guess is that they would get thru the offseason and into the next season, but if 2010 started out slowly they would likely be gone before they could turn it around.

[pbmax]

Ted and Mike are getting at least one more year together after this. McCarthy has a new defensive coordinator and Thompson needs to find the players. Barring a Lions-esque collapse, we do this again next year. And given Capers track record, I don't think anyone is eager to promote from within.

[Deputy Nutz]

I want to know how I am the only one painting myself in a corner? Why are Ted Thompson supporters not painting themselves in a corner as well?

So far no one cares to remember the mistakes TT has made, they just come up with excuses why he wasn't been a consistent winner, players, former GM, rebuilding, bla, bla, bla.

The Packers from 1992 to 2004 won more games than I believe any other franchise in the NFL. For the past 4 years, they are on the wrong side of .500. Sure I understand it was difficult to come up for air after Sherman's "Go for Broke strategy." Which at the time a good number of fans supported because they wanted to see Favre make it to another Super Bowl before his retirement.

I am sorry, but I need a little bit more than 3 really decent preseason games to cash my ticket to the Super Bowl. I don't want Thompson to be fired, That would mean another horrible season, what I want is for him to at least prove to the fans that he is the right man for the job, just not some mediocre front office lacky.

The pre season has this team on the right track. McCarthy is no longer a wet behind the ears head coach, he is a damn fine offensive mind, it has been his stratedgy and game management so far that has let him down, with this being his 4th year, hopefully he has worked some of those kinks out.

The switch to the 3-4 has no barring on whether or not Thompson or McCarthy keep their jobs. If this defense fails without any hope, then it is personel, not the scheme.

[Lurker64]

I think it's ridiculous to set thresholds of success or failure that indicate the return or not of coaches, GMs, etc. There are always going to be extenuating circumstances that indicate indicate how much credit/blame that the GM or coach should receive that are only apparent after the fact.

It's widely reported that Vikings coach Brad Childress needs to win a playoff game this year in order to keep his job, but if Adrian Peterson suffers a compound fracture of his right femur, and Chester Taylor shatters his radius and ulna in his right arm in the first game, then nobody is going to fault Childress if his squad goes, say, 8-8.

If everything breaks right for our squad this year there's no reason they can't do very well. But invariably, everything doesn't break right for any cause and it's unreasonable to blame coaches or GMs for those things that go wrong that are not their fault. Bill Belichick didn't get or deserve a lot of heat last year after Brady went down for not having a higher quality backup, did he?

[Deputy Nutz]

Very true Lurker, again I point to the 1996 Packers. They lost both of their starting wide receivers, but had one or two decent veterans in place, and Wolf also went after and signed Rison mid season. That team also had tremendous depth on it's roster as well.

Injuries happen, sometimes things just don't break the right way and a team loses a whole season because of it. I believe it was the 2002 Packers, that were the best team in the NFC, but lost to the average Jets to lose home field advangtage and limped into the playoffs against the Falcons.

[Cheesehead Craig]

A big part of what's involved with the hiring/firing of GMs and coaches is how they perform to expectations, IMO. With MM and TT there has been moderate expectations as the roster needed an overhaul and that takes time. So they are given a longer leash because of it.

The Childress example is one that shows this expectations argument. He's got a division title while improving the W/L each season, but he's on the hot seat because of the RB and defense he has, he should have been going deep into the playoffs the past 2 seasons. He could go 11-5 this year and win the division, but if they fall in the playoffs short of the NFC Championship game it's still doubtful if he comes back. So it's not all about the record.

[Rastak]

A big part of what's involved with the hiring/firing of GMs and coaches is how they perform to expectations, IMO. With MM and TT there has been moderate expectations as the roster needed an overhaul and that takes time. So they are given a longer leash because of it.

The Childress example is one that shows this expectations argument. He's got a division title while improving the W/L each season, but he's on the hot seat because of the RB and defense he has, he should have been going deep into the playoffs the past 2 seasons. He could go 11-5 this year and win the division, but if they fall in the playoffs short of the NFC Championship game it's still doubtful if he comes back. So it's not all about the record.


Ummm, when you have what they did at QB two years ago they shouldn't have made the playoffs and they didn't. Last year Frerotte played a bit better and they did make the playoffs. If Favre/Rosenfels don't play well enough then no playoffs for them. I agree he's on the hot seat but it's because next year is the last year of his contract and alot of pieces have been added to the team so ownership rightfully expects a good season.

[pbmax]

Very true Lurker, again I point to the 1996 Packers. They lost both of their starting wide receivers, but had one or two decent veterans in place, and Wolf also went after and signed Rison mid season. That team also had tremendous depth on it's roster as well.

Injuries happen, sometimes things just don't break the right way and a team loses a whole season because of it. I believe it was the 2002 Packers, that were the best team in the NFC, but lost to the average Jets to lose home field advangtage and limped into the playoffs against the Falcons.
Saving your team from injuries depends a lot on who and where your team suffers the loss. Some positions do not lend themselves to in season fixes. Compared to finding extra defensive lineman, a blind squirrel could find NFL caliber WRs off the waiver wire. Especially when Rison gets cut mid-season.

And the roster cutdowns do not contain the same talent as teams have finally mastered the cap.

But your overall point is sound. Thompson has not gotten enough results out of his moves over four years yet. But the measuring stick can't be just the playoffs this year. This team needs to see his players become better, and the team to take a definite step forward. Whether that is 9-7 or 12-4 depends alot on factors outside the team.

[Scott Campbell]

Thompson has only disappointed me one time - 2008. And that was an injury riddled cluster. I approve of the vast majority of his methods, though I'd probably attempt to dabble in FA more than he does. I guess I'll support him right up to the point where I don't anymore.

[mraynrand]

Either the packers win 10-12 games this season or its time to look in another direction.

There's not a chance in hell the Packers move on after this season unless there is a flat out 3-4 win collapse with locker room dissention, etc.

Wouldn't another 6-10 punch MM's ticket?

I'd say he has to be .500 with a strong showing to keep his gig.

I don't think Murphy would blow them both up with a 6-10, but I think MM would go if he did produce those kind of results.

6-6? Doubtful. I can't see anyone moving after this year without a collapse. TT let Stubby hit the reset button with the defense. One year isn't a fair test. Stubby has two years to hit it big (NFCC game or better).

[Deputy Nutz]

Very true Lurker, again I point to the 1996 Packers. They lost both of their starting wide receivers, but had one or two decent veterans in place, and Wolf also went after and signed Rison mid season. That team also had tremendous depth on it's roster as well.

Injuries happen, sometimes things just don't break the right way and a team loses a whole season because of it. I believe it was the 2002 Packers, that were the best team in the NFC, but lost to the average Jets to lose home field advangtage and limped into the playoffs against the Falcons.
Saving your team from injuries depends a lot on who and where your team suffers the loss. Some positions do not lend themselves to in season fixes. Compared to finding extra defensive lineman, a blind squirrel could find NFL caliber WRs off the waiver wire. Especially when Rison gets cut mid-season.

And the roster cutdowns do not contain the same talent as teams have finally mastered the cap.

But your overall point is sound. Thompson has not gotten enough results out of his moves over four years yet. But the measuring stick can't be just the playoffs this year. This team needs to see his players become better, and the team to take a definite step forward. Whether that is 9-7 or 12-4 depends alot on factors outside the team.

Thompson refuses to infuse this team with veteran back ups to possibly protect this team from injury. I agree if a plague hits, no GM is going to save his team but you cannot consistently be the youngest team in the league and expect to have back ups that can step up and contribute in a positive fashion. Thompson keeps trading younger players for players even younger. This organization has little stability at the bottom of it's roster.

They have no veteran depth at QB, RB, TE, OL, DL, DB, and at wide out the team has talent, but after the two starters you have a 3rd year, a second year, and a first year player.

So everyone loves the make up on this team, I tend to agree, especially if the team has the luck like they did in 2007, minimal injuries and also the fact that Thompson was lucky, but talented enough to find a running back in Grant because before that he compiled nothing but crap at the position.

Eventually Thompson is going to have to pray for a completely healthy team, or stock some of these positions with some experience.

Brandon Underwood? This team isn't that far away from him seeing the field on a regular basis.

[Lurker64]

Eventually Thompson is going to have to pray for a completely healthy team, or stock some of these positions with some experience.

Wouldn't the eventuality be that eventually the young guys who are currently unproven eventually grow into experienced veterans, and thus the depth and resiliance of the roster is exceptional? I mean, three years ago nobody envisioned Colledge being our best offensive lineman by a fair margin. Two or three years from now, this will be an exceptionally experienced and young roster, regardless of who is the GM at that point.

[retailguy]

Eventually Thompson is going to have to pray for a completely healthy team, or stock some of these positions with some experience.

Wouldn't the eventuality be that eventually the young guys who are currently unproven eventually grow into experienced veterans, and thus the depth and resiliance of the roster is exceptional? I mean, three years ago nobody envisioned Colledge being our best offensive lineman by a fair margin. Two or three years from now, this will be an exceptionally experienced and young roster, regardless of who is the GM at that point.

Truthfully, isn't that what was said two or three years ago? It hasn't happened yet.

This year, just off the top of my head, we lost Tauscher, Ruvell Martin, and Colin Cole. They were replaced by much younger players with much less experience so we continue to stay young.

I'm not arguing that this "shouldn't have happened", but when you keep doing that it prevents you from reaching your "exceptionally experienced" part. Again, for the 5th year in a row, we have a bottom part of the roster that has very little game experience, which is fine, until you have a bunch of injuries. If you're willing to accept that possibility, then all is well and we keep developing these guys.

I do not see how that changes going forward. I envision the packers always being one of the youngest, if not the youngest teams in the league, perpetually.

[pbmax]

They have no veteran depth at QB, RB, TE, OL, DL, DB, and at wide out the team has talent, but after the two starters you have a 3rd year, a second year, and a first year player.

So everyone loves the make up on this team, I tend to agree, especially if the team has the luck like they did in 2007, minimal injuries and also the fact that Thompson was lucky, but talented enough to find a running back in Grant because before that he compiled nothing but crap at the position.

Eventually Thompson is going to have to pray for a completely healthy team, or stock some of these positions with some experience.

Brandon Underwood? This team isn't that far away from him seeing the field on a regular basis.
I think the youth of the team probably guards against some injuries and overall you will lose less games (to injury) than with comparable veterans in the same spots.

But I think you may overestimate the availability of veterans of any quality to be available for backup duty. AJ Feely is a veteran backup QB who has proven he is unreliable as a starter. Do you want someone like him over Flynn or Brohm? Is a player proven to be unable to start really an advantage? What advantage is experience if you are below mediocre?

Veterans who can play are looking to start and get paid. Veterans who are longtime backups probably stink, and make teams only because they are either cheap or special teams wizards (Tracy White). Talent is more of a factor in winning than experience when the experience is in a body that struggles to be competent.

[Tony Oday]

I would rather have the young talent that has grown up Packer then some aging vet making NFL minimum and being a "safe" back up...they are back ups for a reason.

That being said a journeyman QB with some game experience if AR gets a ding and he needs to come out a series or two. RB, I always have said unless they are elite talent and even then it is all about the O line, bad O line bad running game unless you are Sanders! WR, this offense you don't have to be elite to play, Jennings is a stud and DD "has" been ageless thus far, Jones and Nelson are VERY nice back ups and could start if one goes down. TE Finley and Lee...looks good. FB well we have young and starting experience there. O line...I suck at judging O line I look at them as a success when we gain 4 YPC and do not allow a lot of preasure, other than that I listen to you guys!

D side. D line...Raji will get healthy and he is more than likely out because he is dinged up and really doesn't have the experience to warrant him playing hurt this early, Pickett EATS blockers....and everything else ;) Jenkins, STAY HEALTHY MAN! :) Jolly is awesome really like this kid. LBs...we have such a mix of young talent and game experience here I do not need to even say it, most here think it is an average group and will have fun eating crow this year...I am just saying ;) DBs...two STUDS in Woodson and Harris, Williams is a nice back up that could start, behind that it is like EVERY OTHER TEAM young unrealized talent...Saftey...yeah the weak link with out one Pro Bowler and some "guys" on the other side...

I like the depth of the team and the experience we have is wrapped in YOUNG bodies, not aging vets. I would like a guy like Garcia to back up Rogers but only if he can check his ego that he is not a starter anymore.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Keep telling yourself that.

Are you blaming Sherman for 2008?

Abso-fucking-lutely. I also blame Sherman for the maimed economy and global warming.

[mngolf19]

A big part of what's involved with the hiring/firing of GMs and coaches is how they perform to expectations, IMO. With MM and TT there has been moderate expectations as the roster needed an overhaul and that takes time. So they are given a longer leash because of it.

The Childress example is one that shows this expectations argument. He's got a division title while improving the W/L each season, but he's on the hot seat because of the RB and defense he has, he should have been going deep into the playoffs the past 2 seasons. He could go 11-5 this year and win the division, but if they fall in the playoffs short of the NFC Championship game it's still doubtful if he comes back. So it's not all about the record.


Ummm, when you have what they did at QB two years ago they shouldn't have made the playoffs and they didn't. Last year Frerotte played a bit better and they did make the playoffs. If Favre/Rosenfels don't play well enough then no playoffs for them. I agree he's on the hot seat but it's because next year is the last year of his contract and alot of pieces have been added to the team so ownership rightfully expects a good season.

But Ras, Chilly has tied himself to Jackson so he still takes the blame for that lack of playoff success. I agree that anything short of NFCC is a fired Chilly. Even though he could have better W/L than MM.

I also think since there are expectations on the Pack now for this year that this could also add to the heat on MM if he misses playoffs. Really depends on how they get there.

[Deputy Nutz]

A lot of you are talking about all this young talent, which is great to have, but how come the Packers are only getting older by a tenth of a year? This so called young talent gets replaced each year by new young talent.

I guess I think back to the mid 90s when the Packers were able to secure several veterans that may have been a hair past their prime but were vital contributors when injuries did occur, Don Beebe, Tim Hauck, Mike Prior, Keith Jackson, and Bruce Wilkerson, and Harry Galbreath. Guys that had experience and could give you two or three games of quality when guys were banged up.

Why should Thompson be off the hook because of Injuries? If anything injuries should pin point the glaring needs a team has and the actual strength of it's roster.

[Scott Campbell]

Why should Thompson be off the hook because of Injuries? If anything injuries should pin point the glaring needs a team has and the actual strength of it's roster.


An average amount of injuries? No way he should be off the hook. But last year went well beyond average. Even so, Thompson's still got the monkey on his back from a 6-10 season. I get why it happened. But there's only so many times that you can play the injury card.

[Partial]

Why should Thompson be off the hook because of Injuries? If anything injuries should pin point the glaring needs a team has and the actual strength of it's roster.


An average amount of injuries? No way he should be off the hook. But last year went well beyond average. Even so, Thompson's still got the monkey on his back from a 6-10 season. I get why it happened. But there's only so many times that you can play the injury card.

I will giev you that, but my biggest grievance with him (well documented) is his willingness to count on oft injured players. Jenkins and Harrell are two that come to mind.

[Scott Campbell]

Why should Thompson be off the hook because of Injuries? If anything injuries should pin point the glaring needs a team has and the actual strength of it's roster.


An average amount of injuries? No way he should be off the hook. But last year went well beyond average. Even so, Thompson's still got the monkey on his back from a 6-10 season. I get why it happened. But there's only so many times that you can play the injury card.

I will giev you that, but my biggest grievance with him (well documented) is his willingness to count on oft injured players. Jenkins and Harrell are two that come to mind.


I don't know that they've counted on Harrell for some time. But they count on Jenkins a ton. He's been quite the tease lately. If he can't stay healthy this season, all bets are off on this defense.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Truthfully, isn't that what was said two or three years ago? It hasn't happened yet.

In reality, it has. Green Bay has the least turnover of any team in the division. Only 10 guys on the roster weren't with the team last year. Minnesota and Chicago has 13 new players and Detroit has like 1/2 their roster. They are still young, but you aren't seeing the turnover of the roster that you have the last few seasons.

[bobblehead]

Why should Thompson be off the hook because of Injuries? If anything injuries should pin point the glaring needs a team has and the actual strength of it's roster.


An average amount of injuries? No way he should be off the hook. But last year went well beyond average. Even so, Thompson's still got the monkey on his back from a 6-10 season. I get why it happened. But there's only so many times that you can play the injury card.

I will giev you that, but my biggest grievance with him (well documented) is his willingness to count on oft injured players. Jenkins and Harrell are two that come to mind.

I could be wrong here, but was jenkins hurt much before the last 2 seasons? It seems to me he was healthy and continually improved until 2 seasons ago when he first got hurt, then last year again. If I am wrong, sorry, but if not, I don't think 2 seasons constitutes oft injured.

[Lurker64]

I could be wrong here, but was jenkins hurt much before the last 2 seasons? It seems to me he was healthy and continually improved until 2 seasons ago when he first got hurt, then last year again. If I am wrong, sorry, but if not, I don't think 2 seasons constitutes oft injured.

In 2004, his first year as a Packer (he played in NFL Europe previously), Cullen Jenkins played in 16 games and started 6.
In 2005, Jenkins played in 16 games and started 12.
In 2006, Jenkins played in 14 games and started 5.
In 2007 Jenkins played in 16 games and started 15.
In 2008 Jenkins played and started the first four games before suffering a torn pectoral muscle which put him on the shelf for the rest of the season.

So other than last year, he hasn't really been made unavailable very often due to injury. Certainly there were points in 2007 where he was less effective than he could have been due to a variety of minor injuries, but he still played through them. Hell, every NFL player is going to be hampered by minor nicks and bruises as the season goes on. Isn't "played in virtually every game all but one season for his entire career as a Packer" enough to avoid the "injury prone" tag? I mean, he's played in 66/80 regular season games as a Packer and previous to last year, he had played in 62/64.

[SnakeLH2006]

I'm fine with TT's astute look on talent...

But I hate Scrabble, wine, and En Vogue. Let's hope we win this year, else my TT friendship WILL end.

[RashanGary]

A lot of you are talking about all this young talent, which is great to have, but how come the Packers are only getting older by a tenth of a year? This so called young talent gets replaced each year by new young talent.



It's because we're supposed to have players still around from the 2001-2004 drafts. Because that was a span where we ended up with almost no good young talent, we ended up with almost no good veteran talent 5 years later.

As Wolf's guys get replaced, we're replacing them with young guys. It's kind of an unbalanced roster in that most teams with even average drafts have a few more core players in their prime.

That youngest team in the league tag can mean a few things. In this case, it means we don't have many players from a span of lean drafts, but we do have a lot of young, experienced players that have proven they can play (maybe more than any team in the league) and a lot of young players that have shown reason for optimism.


Where you see reason to doom, gloom and a reason to pout, I see reason to celebrate an exciting new season where I expect the Packers to dominate. We'll find out who is right.

[RashanGary]

Greg Jennings
Aaron Rodgers
Nick Collins
Darryn Colledge
Jason Spitz
Tramon Williams
BJ Raji
Johnny Jolly
Ryan Grant
Korey Hall



Jermichael Finley
James Jones
Jordy Nelson
Josh Sitton
Allen Barbre
AJ Hawk
Clay Matthews
Brandon Jackson
DeShawn Wynn
Quinn Johnson

. . . .


Young? Yeah, they're young but I'll bet there are quite a few GM's that would trade their old talent for our young talent right now. You're making the mistake of presuming Ted Thompson crashed this team and it will stay crashed. What I think happened is 4 bad drafts in a row lead to a couple down years. Ted was on this staff when we won the SB. He was a key member of the Seattle staff when they went, and now, depending on how you view it, he's assembled a competitor here in Green Bay. Time will tell, but I think you are dead wrong about our young talent. I think they're good and I think it's a reason for optimism. It's the reason we're under the radar, even though we are considered a top team by Vegas. I think we're better than the good rating Vegas gives us.