Goodell wants to ruin the NFL...

[packers11]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-superbowl-goodell&prov=ap&type=lgns

Can you take out hitting too? Looks like Kampy's days in the NFL are done :wink:

[Lurker64]

If I were the supreme ruler of football, I would probably enact this rule for high school and lower. Don't let the kids take unnecessary hits to the head for no reason, especially when (at those levels) they probably ought to pay more attention to what they're doing and what the other guy is doing than "hitting someone as hard as you can".

But let the college kids hit and let the pro guys hit.

[swede]

How many linemen has GB had out with concussions?

It seems to me that the most vulnerable players are, in descending order, quarterbacks, receivers, and running backs.

My kid, a tailback, had his first football concussion this year as a freshman. He was churning for extra yards dragging a few players with him. While he was being held up two players hit him in the head with their helmets and knocked him silly. No flags. If he happens to get two more concussions during his high school career, school policy is that he will be out of contact sports.

If Goodell wants to limit concussions, indeed if football at any level wants to limit concussions, then deliberate helmet to helmet contact would require a player to be removed from the remainder of the game.

What the heck does three-point stance have to do with concussions?

[Patler]

How many linemen has GB had out with concussions?


Wells, Lang and Barbre all were on the injury reports this season for concussions and missed at least practice time.

[Scott Campbell]

Is there any truth to the concept that some people just have a thick skull? Or does everyone get concussed equally?







And no, the answer to the first one is not "you're living proof that there are".

[pbmax]

Lineman take shots to the head far more frequently than backs and receivers in the regular course of line play. The hits on the QB or at midfield can often be much harder and more dramatic. Most of the players whose brains have been donated and studied for evidence of damage due to concussions have been lineman who had trouble later in life. Its a self-selected group obviously, but most positions seem to carry risk.

There are dozens if not hundreds of other factors that could play a part in determining who will suffer long term damage, but I do not think you could act just for skill positions and claim to have acted in the best interest of all players.

[red]

Is there any truth to the concept that some people just have a thick skull? Or does everyone get concussed equally?







And no, the answer to the first one is not "you're living proof that there are".

i don't know, but i can tell you for a fact that after the first one its much easier to get another one

i never had problems with my head until the first major shot (almost 15 years ago). i have had well over a dozen since then, maybe as many as 2 dozen

they are serious injuries, they aren't just a little head ache like most people think they are. they are very serious injuries that can have a big impact on your life

[Freak Out]

Is there any truth to the concept that some people just have a thick skull? Or does everyone get concussed equally?







And no, the answer to the first one is not "you're living proof that there are".

i don't know, but i can tell you for a fact that after the first one its much easier to get another one

i never had problems with my head until the first major shot (almost 15 years ago). i have had well over a dozen since then, maybe as many as 2 dozen

they are serious injuries, they aren't just a little head ache like most people think they are. they are very serious injuries that can have a big impact on your life

How often do you have to empty the drool bucket? :lol: What in the hell are you doing to get so many concussions?

[Smidgeon]

I had a friend in college who (at last count) had nine concussions. Of course, he got his first seven and last one playing rugby without a scrum cap, so he shoulders much of that blame. But his worst concussion, the one that he still couldn't shake 8 months later wasn't from rugby. It was from a freak accident where a friend gave him a playful shove and their feet got tangled. His head hit the ground hard and it took him most of a year to recover. Just like many athletes out there, he went right back to rugby once the effects of the concussion wore off despite our pleading against it. Don't know what the long-term effects will be, but he's definitely someone I get concerned about whenever I hear about concussions.

[Fosco33]

I don't recall any specific hits in my hs football days - but remember many teammates forgetting most of the game while playing.

Myself - I got my 1st when I was 5 falling out of the top bunk while sleeping. I remember not being able to have recess for a few weeks... that sucked

I got my 2nd as a 6th grader playing touch football on the blacktop (ran straight into a telephone pole). Apparently I went back to class and started taking notes - backwards - without realizing it. Teacher was freaked out. I still made it to hunter's safety that night after being checked out in the ER 8-)

[swede]

How many linemen has GB had out with concussions?


Wells, Lang and Barbre all were on the injury reports this season for concussions and missed at least practice time.

Thanks Patler.

I'll watch the injury reports more closely. My theory was that quarterback and receivers concussions came from being driven into the ground, while the receivers and running backs were most at risk of being speared with another player's helmet. I didn't think linemen were as vulnerable because the head shots they take happen in more close quarters.

Patlerized, as usual, by the facts.


Lineman take shots to the head far more frequently than backs and receivers in the regular course of line play. The hits on the QB or at midfield can often be much harder and more dramatic. Most of the players whose brains have been donated and studied for evidence of damage due to concussions have been lineman who had trouble later in life. Its a self-selected group obviously, but most positions seem to carry risk.

There are dozens if not hundreds of other factors that could play a part in determining who will suffer long term damage, but I do not think you could act just for skill positions and claim to have acted in the best interest of all players.

Also appreciated, pbmax. Do you think the league will act to require medical clearance for concussed players to return to practice and play?

[Scott Campbell]

Is there any truth to the concept that some people just have a thick skull? Or does everyone get concussed equally?







And no, the answer to the first one is not "you're living proof that there are".

i don't know, but i can tell you for a fact that after the first one its much easier to get another one

i never had problems with my head until the first major shot (almost 15 years ago). i have had well over a dozen since then, maybe as many as 2 dozen

they are serious injuries, they aren't just a little head ache like most people think they are. they are very serious injuries that can have a big impact on your life



Scary. Unlike knees and hips, you can't just get a new head.

[Noodle]

Here's the thing -- linemen concusions are not necessarily caused by helmet-to-helmet contact. Rather, it's the abrupt stopping of the head, while the brain is still moving forward, that causes the concussion. So if guys can't fire off of three-point stances, then their brains won't get smashed when the lineman contacts another lineman.

But helmet-to-helmet or helmet-to-ground is the type of contact that causes RB, QB, DB, WR concussions. Stopping the 3-point stance will have no affect on those concussions. But getting rid of the plastic-shelled helmet/weapon would.

[red]

Is there any truth to the concept that some people just have a thick skull? Or does everyone get concussed equally?







And no, the answer to the first one is not "you're living proof that there are".

i don't know, but i can tell you for a fact that after the first one its much easier to get another one

i never had problems with my head until the first major shot (almost 15 years ago). i have had well over a dozen since then, maybe as many as 2 dozen

they are serious injuries, they aren't just a little head ache like most people think they are. they are very serious injuries that can have a big impact on your life

How often do you have to empty the drool bucket? :lol: What in the hell are you doing to get so many concussions?

nah don't need a bucket

lots and lots of sports. and walking into door jams, and crawling under buildings, and falling down and whatnot.

the first and worst came from playing a pickup game of full contact 11 on football without pads with some of the members of my colleges football team

that wasn't one of my smarter ideas

[MadScientist]

Here's the thing -- linemen concusions are not necessarily caused by helmet-to-helmet contact. Rather, it's the abrupt stopping of the head, while the brain is still moving forward, that causes the concussion. So if guys can't fire off of three-point stances, then their brains won't get smashed when the lineman contacts another lineman.

But helmet-to-helmet or helmet-to-ground is the type of contact that causes RB, QB, DB, WR concussions. Stopping the 3-point stance will have no affect on those concussions. But getting rid of the plastic-shelled helmet/weapon would.
Getting rid of the helmet wouldn't reduce the number of concussions, but would change how they happen. What is needed is a different design for a helmet that does not act as one solid piece. What I would try is something like a flexible outer skin (vinyl or some such) covering small, harder pieces that move independently (think scales or poker chips, not overlapping). Underneath that, a layer of softer foam, like memory foam and finally a stiffer foam to make it form fitting. I don't know if it would work, but my hunch is it would work for the impacts they players are really getting.

As you noted above this would be more for the skill players than the linemen.

[Freak Out]

Is there any truth to the concept that some people just have a thick skull? Or does everyone get concussed equally?







And no, the answer to the first one is not "you're living proof that there are".

i don't know, but i can tell you for a fact that after the first one its much easier to get another one

i never had problems with my head until the first major shot (almost 15 years ago). i have had well over a dozen since then, maybe as many as 2 dozen

they are serious injuries, they aren't just a little head ache like most people think they are. they are very serious injuries that can have a big impact on your life

How often do you have to empty the drool bucket? :lol: What in the hell are you doing to get so many concussions?

nah don't need a bucket

lots and lots of sports. and walking into door jams, and crawling under buildings, and falling down and whatnot.

the first and worst came from playing a pickup game of full contact 11 on football without pads with some of the members of my colleges football team

that wasn't one of my smarter ideas

Ha ha!

I've had two....one from football and one from a ski crash. I had headaches and nausea for days after both.

[Little Whiskey]

What is needed is a different design for a helmet

how about a hans device similar to nascar. you are unable to move your head and it transfers the hit to your shoulders. reduces injuries, but makes the game boring as hell.

[mission]

We put a man on the moon and haven't even figured out this whole helmet thing yet.. :?: :P

[pbmax]

Its not just the helmet, but deceleration. Basically, how fast your head moves and then how fast it stops. I remember reports indicating that concern over Earnhardt's open facemask helmet as contributing to his death were missing the point. The point wasn't padding, but inertia. Forensic Pathologists, who had not worked with NASCAR but knew car injuries, knew what killed Earnhardt before the reports were released because the results were predictable.

Whiskey's mention (HANS device), impractical outside of a car currently, is the only method I am aware of that can take that energy and transfer it somewhere (wheels, gears, pulleys, gyroscopes, I have no idea, etc.) to something other than forward momentum for the driver's head. It has to react quickly enough to dissipate enough energy that the body can take the blow when the head can no longer travel forward and snaps to a stop.

[Tarlam!]

Take away helmuts. Seems pretty simple to me. Although, in saying that, my only experience if from a Rugby stanpoint. And we all know what wimps Rugby players are.

[channtheman]

Take away helmuts. Seems pretty simple to me. Although, in saying that, my only experience if from a Rugby stanpoint. And we all know what wimps Rugby players are.
No argument there. :lol:

[MJZiggy]

Take away helmuts. Seems pretty simple to me. Although, in saying that, my only experience if from a Rugby stanpoint. And we all know what wimps Rugby players are.

Actually, that's not that far-fetched. I think something closer to the old leather helmets is not a bad idea. No using your helmet for a weapon then. Not sure how to slow down a lineman's helmet, but since they only go a couple feet, I wonder how much inertia they can really overcome...

[Freak Out]

Take away helmuts. Seems pretty simple to me. Although, in saying that, my only experience if from a Rugby stanpoint. And we all know what wimps Rugby players are.

Actually, that's not that far-fetched. I think something closer to the old leather helmets is not a bad idea. No using your helmet for a weapon then. Not sure how to slow down a lineman's helmet, but since they only go a couple feet, I wonder how much inertia they can really overcome...

Players would die.....lots of players used to die playing football back in the day...I believe Congress came close to banning college football unless rules were changed and the number of deaths came down.

[MJZiggy]

Not saying go back TO that, but something more pliable less missile-like...

[Maxie the Taxi]

I'll cut to the chase, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

The day the NFL bans the 3-point stance is the day I quit being a football fan. Fortunately, that will also be the day the NFL dies from lack of interest.

If I want to watch flag football, I'll visit my local park league fields and enjoy the contest...without about 10 other fans... and friends of the players.

[Guiness]

i don't know, but i can tell you for a fact that after the first one its much easier to get another one

i never had problems with my head until the first major shot (almost 15 years ago). i have had well over a dozen since then, maybe as many as 2 dozen

they are serious injuries, they aren't just a little head ache like most people think they are. they are very serious injuries that can have a big impact on your life

How often do you have to empty the drool bucket? :lol: What in the hell are you doing to get so many concussions?

nah don't need a bucket

lots and lots of sports. and walking into door jams, and crawling under buildings, and falling down and whatnot.

the first and worst came from playing a pickup game of full contact 11 on football without pads with some of the members of my colleges football team

that wasn't one of my smarter ideas

Ha ha!

I've had two....one from football and one from a ski crash. I had headaches and nausea for days after both.

Scary to look back and think about it. I don't know that I've ever had a 'diagnosed' concussion, but looking back I think I can think of 3-4
First one I remember is from public skating - was about 6-7yrs old, ran headlong into someone, woke up being carried through the lobby. I can remember taking a few knocks on the head other times, and being nauseous for a while after, but luckily nothing like the extended ones I've seen described. Rather be lucky than good, I guess.

[Fritz]

I'll cut to the chase, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

The day the NFL bans the 3-point stance is the day I quit being a football fan. Fortunately, that will also be the day the NFL dies from lack of interest.

If I want to watch flag football, I'll visit my local park league fields and enjoy the contest...without about 10 other fans... and friends of the players.

Well, this is pretty bottom line. Maxie's okay with players ending up with debilitating head injuries. It seems he feels it's their choice to make. Having players get these very serious injuries is, for Maxie, not troubling.

I don't agree with you Maxie, not at all. I'd argue that the whole "it's their choice" thing is quite simplistic. If a kid's talented, really talented, and from the get-go is pushed to be the football guy, the hero - his parents, probably, certainly middle school and high school coaches go after and try to persuade talented kids to play - and if he gets much adulation from adults and peers, does a kid really have the emotional bedrock to resist that? Not many, I don't think. I don't think it's that much of a free choice.

I also think that we as fans are complicit in all this. Most of us, like you, frankly don't give a rat's ass what happens to players once they leave the game. I suspect though that if we had to look at and sit down and talk with some of these old timers and actually see what's happened to so many of them, we might not be so ready to act the macho part about "don't pussify the game."

But I'll give you credit for being up front about not caring about the injuries enough to propose radical changes to the game.

[Scott Campbell]

I don't agree with you Maxie, not at all. I'd argue that the whole "it's their choice" thing is quite simplistic. If a kid's talented, really talented, and from the get-go is pushed to be the football guy, the hero - his parents, probably, certainly middle school and high school coaches go after and try to persuade talented kids to play - and if he gets much adulation from adults and peers, does a kid really have the emotional bedrock to resist that? Not many, I don't think. I don't think it's that much of a free choice.




Listening to Hines Ward talk about Ben this year, I'd agree with that. I think you could potentially improve the situation by requiring league doctors to clear guys to play. But big hits are part of the game.

[Kiwon]

Remember Aikman? Concussions are what did him in.

I wonder how many of the old linemen are dealing with concussion-related issues from back in the day when the "head slap" was legal?

Then what about this guy?

http://s539.photobucket.com/albums/ff358/bankaiAP/th_Gus_Frerotte_headbutt_LG.gif

[pbmax]

I don't agree with you Maxie, not at all. I'd argue that the whole "it's their choice" thing is quite simplistic. If a kid's talented, really talented, and from the get-go is pushed to be the football guy, the hero - his parents, probably, certainly middle school and high school coaches go after and try to persuade talented kids to play - and if he gets much adulation from adults and peers, does a kid really have the emotional bedrock to resist that? Not many, I don't think. I don't think it's that much of a free choice.

Listening to Hines Ward talk about Ben this year, I'd agree with that. I think you could potentially improve the situation by requiring league doctors to clear guys to play. But big hits are part of the game.
That is tough. the Doctors are already on the team payroll and the players have an incentive to lie to them. They will probably need an objective standard applied and evaluated outside the normal team doctor situation.

[MJZiggy]

It just dawned on me: if this stuff happens boxing is done for. Ali's got trauma induced Parkinson's, Leonard almost went blind, and these guys take shots to a bare head constantly through their entire careers. The sport is nothing but one big head injury.

[pbmax]

It just dawned on me: if this stuff happens boxing is done for. Ali's got trauma induced Parkinson's, Leonard almost went blind, and these guys take shots to a bare head constantly through their entire careers. The sport is nothing but one big head injury.
True, but a punch is different than hit. the mass behind it is less and there are probably more ways to avoid contact. But the cumulative effect might be similar.

And wait until those MMA boys find out how many brain cells they are losing during a choke out. It will make Wrestling seem like a healthy alternative. :)

[MJZiggy]

I have to question the number of brain cells they had in the first place to want to do MMA...

[ThunderDan]

It just dawned on me: if this stuff happens boxing is done for. Ali's got trauma induced Parkinson's, Leonard almost went blind, and these guys take shots to a bare head constantly through their entire careers. The sport is nothing but one big head injury.
True, but a punch is different than hit. the mass behind it is less and there are probably more ways to avoid contact. But the cumulative effect might be similar.

And wait until those MMA boys find out how many brain cells they are losing during a choke out. It will make Wrestling seem like a healthy alternative. :)

Actually, there have been studies done on this. MMA is safer from a head trauma standpoint. The smaller gloves make it easier to knock someone out. Therefor they don't take as many headshots during a fight. In MMA it is rare for someone to take more than 3 or 4 "shots" to the head before they get knocked out. In a boxing match you can take 70 or more shots and still be able to fight for 45 minutes.

And before anyone says no way; I am only taking about head trauma from contact not choking, beating, smashing etc.....

[Patler]

Adults engage in many different professions and hobbies that are fraught with risks. Miners, loggers, commercial fishermen, steel workers, smoke jumpers, farmers, policemen, firemen, soldiers, boxers to name just a few. At least pro football players are well-compensated for the risks they take.

[Joemailman]

Adults engage in many different professions and hobbies that are fraught with risks. Miners, loggers, commercial fishermen, steel workers, smoke jumpers, farmers, policemen, firemen, soldiers, boxers to name just a few. At least pro football players are well-compensated for the risks they take.

You left out a few:

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/wpa0394l.jpg

[red]

It just dawned on me: if this stuff happens boxing is done for. Ali's got trauma induced Parkinson's, Leonard almost went blind, and these guys take shots to a bare head constantly through their entire careers. The sport is nothing but one big head injury.
True, but a punch is different than hit. the mass behind it is less and there are probably more ways to avoid contact. But the cumulative effect might be similar.

And wait until those MMA boys find out how many brain cells they are losing during a choke out. It will make Wrestling seem like a healthy alternative. :)

Actually, there have been studies done on this. MMA is safer from a head trauma standpoint. The smaller gloves make it easier to knock someone out. Therefor they don't take as many headshots during a fight. In MMA it is rare for someone to take more than 3 or 4 "shots" to the head before they get knocked out. In a boxing match you can take 70 or more shots and still be able to fight for 45 minutes.

And before anyone says no way; I am only taking about head trauma from contact not choking, beating, smashing etc.....

i can buy that

a lot of brain injuries come from you brain crashing into the skull. for those that somehow don't know, the brain is floating, its not attached to the skull. so it can move around and crash into it

in boxing even a little jab, that sudden quick movement can cause the brain to smack the skull. having that happen 100+ times in 30 or 40 minutes is just suicide

ask the greatest of all time if he would do it all over again, knowing now that he would be a vegetable for the second half of his life

boxing is on its way out anyways, nobody cares about it. i'm a boxing fan, or was, and i couldn't name one champ in any weight class right now

[pbmax]

All businesses that engage in physical risk and the professionals among them have some sort of obligation to seek out, test and adopt new safety advances. Miners now have access to oxygen bottles and soldiers have access to body armor (I am not saying either is a panacea - but simply one solution to a number of possible risks). The professional organizations for each group, the businesses themselves and the government all have a hand in advocating and adopting policies and procedures to raise the standards of safety.

I think football has a similar obligation.

And just as certainly as you cannot change the reality that men and machines must be underground to work a mine (outside of a strip mine, that is), there will always danger in a collision sport such as football. And the fact that too many changes might cause the public to lose interest.