Antonio Cromartie?

[packers11]

www.rotoworld.com


ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports the Chargers are "exploring possible trade scenarios" that involve trading CB Antonio Cromartie for a running back.

Cromartie has fallen out of favor with the Bolts. GM A.J. Smith will have a hard time getting full value for him after his half-hearted attempt at tackling in the playoff loss to the Jets. There were persistent rumors of a Cromartie-for-Tashard Choice deal a week ago, but the Cowboys aren't interested. Mort mentions the Packers as a team looking for corner help, though they'd have to deal a draft pick instead of a player. Feb. 17 - 12:11 am et


My take... He sucks at tackling but he was a stud a couple years ago (in coverage). Hes only 25, and with Woodson still on the team maybe he could learn a few things from the DMVP...

I wouldn't give up much for him though... Thoughts?

[Smidgeon]

www.rotoworld.com


ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports the Chargers are "exploring possible trade scenarios" that involve trading CB Antonio Cromartie for a running back.

Cromartie has fallen out of favor with the Bolts. GM A.J. Smith will have a hard time getting full value for him after his half-hearted attempt at tackling in the playoff loss to the Jets. There were persistent rumors of a Cromartie-for-Tashard Choice deal a week ago, but the Cowboys aren't interested. Mort mentions the Packers as a team looking for corner help, though they'd have to deal a draft pick instead of a player. Feb. 17 - 12:11 am et


My take... He sucks at tackling but he was a stud a couple years ago (in coverage). Hes only 25, and with Woodson still on the team maybe he could learn a few things from the DMVP...

I wouldn't give up much for him though... Thoughts?

Thoughts are that GB doesn't have what SD is looking for in terms of bait.

[Noodle]

Tough one. As far as I can tell, the Pack doesn't have any extra picks this year. We have one pick in each of the seven rounds, though of course that could change.

I'd say he's certainly worth the Pack's 2nd round pick (No. 56 overall), though I suspect most here would say don't give up anything above the third round (No. 86).

But think of it -- a proven starting CB just hitting his prime with the 56th pick. Entering the 2009 season, one observer had Cromartie listed as the 15th best CB in the league: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/215881-player-profiling-corner-back-rankings, and Sporting News had hims as 7th: http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2009-05-26/cornerback-rankings-asomugha-best-and-still-getting-better. I suspect he's only going to get better with maturity.

For context, look at who TT has drafted in that range:

2009 -- no 2nd round pick (we got BJ and Clay in the first round, then didn't pick again until the 4th (TJ Lang with the 109th)).
2008 -- 3 2nd round picks, Jordy Nelson (36th), Brian Brohm (56), and Pat Lee (60).
2007 -- Brandon Jackson (63rd)
2006 -- 2 2nd round picks, Daryn Colledge (47th) and Greg Jennings (52nd)
2005 -- 2 2nd round picks, Nick Collins (51st) and Terrence Murphy (58th)

So yes, TT has hit some gold in the 2nd -- Jennings and Collins are the obvious examples -- but I still think a top CB is worth the No. 2.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Say we get him, who goes where in the d backfield?

[red]

www.rotoworld.com


ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports the Chargers are "exploring possible trade scenarios" that involve trading CB Antonio Cromartie for a running back.

Cromartie has fallen out of favor with the Bolts. GM A.J. Smith will have a hard time getting full value for him after his half-hearted attempt at tackling in the playoff loss to the Jets. There were persistent rumors of a Cromartie-for-Tashard Choice deal a week ago, but the Cowboys aren't interested. Mort mentions the Packers as a team looking for corner help, though they'd have to deal a draft pick instead of a player. Feb. 17 - 12:11 am et


My take... He sucks at tackling but he was a stud a couple years ago (in coverage). Hes only 25, and with Woodson still on the team maybe he could learn a few things from the DMVP...

I wouldn't give up much for him though... Thoughts?

Thoughts are that GB doesn't have what SD is looking for in terms of bait.

exactly, they want a stud game changing running back for him

we're also looking for one of those

[Smidgeon]

Say we get him, who goes where in the d backfield?

Follow-up question: Assuming Harris recovers from his ACL as rapidly as expected, will he really just be the full time nickel back anyway? Isn't that the way his contract is structured, so he gets paid less and less as he gets older so it matches what are expected contributions?

I imagine Harris has 2-3 more years as a nickel back (maybe longer if he can really stay in peak shape), Woodson probably has 2-3 as a CB and maybe another 2 as a safety (yes, those are all optimistic projections). Tramon Williams, I think, is starting calibur, but #2 starting calibur. If Cromartie came over (highly doubtful), I would imagine he'd supplant Tramon Williams until Harris or Woodson made a more permanent move (either to retirement or to another position). Either that or Capers introduces a one-safety-three-cornerback base scheme and a one-safety-four-cornerback nickel scheme...

[Smidgeon]

www.rotoworld.com


ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports the Chargers are "exploring possible trade scenarios" that involve trading CB Antonio Cromartie for a running back.

Cromartie has fallen out of favor with the Bolts. GM A.J. Smith will have a hard time getting full value for him after his half-hearted attempt at tackling in the playoff loss to the Jets. There were persistent rumors of a Cromartie-for-Tashard Choice deal a week ago, but the Cowboys aren't interested. Mort mentions the Packers as a team looking for corner help, though they'd have to deal a draft pick instead of a player. Feb. 17 - 12:11 am et


My take... He sucks at tackling but he was a stud a couple years ago (in coverage). Hes only 25, and with Woodson still on the team maybe he could learn a few things from the DMVP...

I wouldn't give up much for him though... Thoughts?

Thoughts are that GB doesn't have what SD is looking for in terms of bait.

exactly, they want a stud game changing running back for him

we're also looking for one of those

Agreed. I read an article earlier today that suggested trading Grant for Cromartie. The question the writer asked was, "Would you trade them?" I think what the writer didn't quite grasp is that SD likely wants a lot more than Grant. GB couldn't trade the two straight up. Grant isn't as "sexy" of a RB as required to pull off a trade like that.

[RashanGary]

We play zone coverage. Many great zone corners have come in later rounds in the draft. 5'10" is about ideal for a zone corner. Compact guys that are instinctive and can tackle. They don't even have to be burners. 5'10", 4.5. Physically, they're dime a dozen, but finding a smart one, that wants to study and has a feel for the game, that's where it's at.

Cromartie fit's what we used to do really well. I suppose we'd get good use out of him still, but we don't need to spend mega resources to bring in an ideal man corner when now we can focus on getting the easier to find, instinctive zone corners.

[Noodle]

Say we get him, who goes where in the d backfield?

If Harris isn't quite right, he'd start in Al's place.

If Harris is 100%, I'd play Cromartie at the other corner and move Woodson to safety, where he'd team up with Collin. That's a pretty dang good d-backfield.

[cheesner]

Great video of him I saw somewhere where he is blitzing and its a handoff up the middle. He is in good position for a TFL. Instead he slows down to a jog and watches the RB run by.

No thanks. I want guys who love football and want to help the team in any way they can. This is a high bust potential here, I feel.

[Smidgeon]

Say we get him, who goes where in the d backfield?

If Harris isn't quite right, he'd start in Al's place.

If Harris is 100%, I'd play Cromartie at the other corner and move Woodson to safety, where he'd team up with Collin. That's a pretty dang good d-backfield.

Not until Woodson loses his ability to run. Otherwise why move the best player on D from his best position on D?

[mission]

Say we get him, who goes where in the d backfield?

If Harris isn't quite right, he'd start in Al's place.

If Harris is 100%, I'd play Cromartie at the other corner and move Woodson to safety, where he'd team up with Collin. That's a pretty dang good d-backfield.

Not until Woodson loses his ability to run. Otherwise why move the best player on D from his best position on D?

It's all semantics really. How else would your one-safety-four-corner defense work?

You got deep half, you got deep half, you guys man up underneath... ;p

Call them what you will be they will still (hopefully) be lining up all over the place.

Either way, I like the idea. We'd probably see him come into town and turn into a changed man like Woodson before him. Cromartie could use some time around Chuck and Al...

Seems like it'd create quite a logjam in the secondary with at least one person not happy about their role... that is, unless, Capers/MM can show them how we'll be utilizing everyone in a hybrid defense.

It won't happen, though. :arrow:

[Smidgeon]

Say we get him, who goes where in the d backfield?

If Harris isn't quite right, he'd start in Al's place.

If Harris is 100%, I'd play Cromartie at the other corner and move Woodson to safety, where he'd team up with Collin. That's a pretty dang good d-backfield.

Not until Woodson loses his ability to run. Otherwise why move the best player on D from his best position on D?

It's all semantics really. How else would your one-safety-four-corner defense work?

You got deep half, you got deep half, you guys man up underneath... ;p

Call them what you will be they will still (hopefully) be lining up all over the place.

Either way, I like the idea. We'd probably see him come into town and turn into a changed man like Woodson before him. Cromartie could use some time around Chuck and Al...

Seems like it'd create quite a logjam in the secondary with at least one person not happy about their role... that is, unless, Capers/MM can show them how we'll be utilizing everyone in a hybrid defense.

It won't happen, though. :arrow:

That part is Capers' to figure out. I just suggested he'd do it. He's the defensive mastermind, not me. :mrgreen:

[hoosier]

Tough one. As far as I can tell, the Pack doesn't have any extra picks this year. We have one pick in each of the seven rounds, though of course that could change.

I'd say he's certainly worth the Pack's 2nd round pick (No. 56 overall), though I suspect most here would say don't give up anything above the third round (No. 86).

But think of it -- a proven starting CB just hitting his prime with the 56th pick. Entering the 2009 season, one observer had Cromartie listed as the 15th best CB in the league: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/215881-player-profiling-corner-back-rankings, and Sporting News had hims as 7th: http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2009-05-26/cornerback-rankings-asomugha-best-and-still-getting-better. I suspect he's only going to get better with maturity.
For context, look at who TT has drafted in that range:

2009 -- no 2nd round pick (we got BJ and Clay in the first round, then didn't pick again until the 4th (TJ Lang with the 109th)).
2008 -- 3 2nd round picks, Jordy Nelson (36th), Brian Brohm (56), and Pat Lee (60).
2007 -- Brandon Jackson (63rd)
2006 -- 2 2nd round picks, Daryn Colledge (47th) and Greg Jennings (52nd)
2005 -- 2 2nd round picks, Nick Collins (51st) and Terrence Murphy (58th)

So yes, TT has hit some gold in the 2nd -- Jennings and Collins are the obvious examples -- but I still think a top CB is worth the No. 2.

My impression is that Cromartie is still living off the rep he made for himself back in 2007. At least from what I have read, for the last two years his performance hasn't lived up to that level, and as we saw quite clearly on the Shonn Greene TD run in the playoffs he is not exactly the toughest defender on the field. I suspect he wants to be paid like a top flight cornerback, but his performance doesn't live up to that. No thanks. I don't think I would even want TT to pursue him if the Chargers cut him.

[get louder at lambeau]

Great video of him I saw somewhere where he is blitzing and its a handoff up the middle. He is in good position for a TFL. Instead he slows down to a jog and watches the RB run by.

Any chance you could dig that one up?

[pbmax]

Great video of him I saw somewhere where he is blitzing and its a handoff up the middle. He is in good position for a TFL. Instead he slows down to a jog and watches the RB run by.

Any chance you could dig that one up?
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=2&thread=1584335&page=1&pc=4

Its an animated GIF and a Dugout style chat satire. You will need to go to the message board page above to see it. Its worth the wait for the advertisement to make way.

[get louder at lambeau]

Great video of him I saw somewhere where he is blitzing and its a handoff up the middle. He is in good position for a TFL. Instead he slows down to a jog and watches the RB run by.

Any chance you could dig that one up?
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=2&thread=1584335&page=1&pc=4

Its an animated GIF and a Dugout style chat satire. You will need to go to the message board page above to see it. Its worth the wait for the advertisement to make way.

Wow. We would want him why again? No wonder the Chargers are done with him. Jarrett Bush is a superhero compared to that.

[cheesner]

Great video of him I saw somewhere where he is blitzing and its a handoff up the middle. He is in good position for a TFL. Instead he slows down to a jog and watches the RB run by.

Any chance you could dig that one up?
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/?go=forum_framed.posts&forum=2&thread=1584335&page=1&pc=4

Its an animated GIF and a Dugout style chat satire. You will need to go to the message board page above to see it. Its worth the wait for the advertisement to make way.

Wow. We would want him why again? No wonder the Chargers are done with him. Jarrett Bush is a superhero compared to that.

Thats the one!

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab186/dawiesner/5kkln4jpg.gif

This is too funny not to share.

[get louder at lambeau]

Looks like he's another Travis Henry type of loser-


Chargers cornerback Antonio Cromartie lost a grievance Wednesday filed by his former agent Jason Fletcher, according to NFL Network's Jason La Canfora.

NFL arbitrator Roger Kaplan ruled that Cromartie must pay Fletcher at least $32,000 in back fees.

The 2007 Pro Bowler is currently the subject of trade rumors despite a decent 2009 campaign.

Cromartie claimed in the grievance it was a financial hardship to pay the overdue fees, hinting at deeper monetary problems. Cromartie has seven children spread across five states and was named in at least five paternity suits, according to the San Diego Union-Tribune.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/02/17/cromartie-loses-grievance/

[Noodle]

Yeah, I've seen these. I still say that a quality cover CB is worth a 2.

I seem to recall quite a bit of bitchin on this board about the inability of a certain GB CB (Jarrett Bush, cough cough) to cover worth a crap. Cromartie gives the Pack a chance to have a really dominant secondary, with Tramon or Harris coming in on nickle. You're going to pass that up?

[get louder at lambeau]

Yeah, I've seen these. I still say that a quality cover CB is worth a 2.

I seem to recall quite a bit of bitchin on this board about the inability of a certain GB CB (Jarrett Bush, cough cough) to cover worth a crap. Cromartie gives the Pack a chance to have a really dominant secondary, with Tramon or Harris coming in on nickle. You're going to pass that up?

Going from "can't cover" to "won't tackle" will make us dominant?

[Scott Campbell]

Looks like he's another Travis Henry type of loser-


Chargers cornerback Antonio Cromartie lost a grievance Wednesday filed by his former agent Jason Fletcher, according to NFL Network's Jason La Canfora.

NFL arbitrator Roger Kaplan ruled that Cromartie must pay Fletcher at least $32,000 in back fees.

The 2007 Pro Bowler is currently the subject of trade rumors despite a decent 2009 campaign.

Cromartie claimed in the grievance it was a financial hardship to pay the overdue fees, hinting at deeper monetary problems. Cromartie has seven children spread across five states and was named in at least five paternity suits, according to the San Diego Union-Tribune.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/02/17/cromartie-loses-grievance/



He's not Packer People.

[The Leaper]

He had one good year...hasn't done much recently. I wouldn't trade anything for the guy. I'd rather find young hungry talent in the draft. SD would keep him if he was worth close to what people think he is.

[KYPack]

I'd sign Leigh Bodden over this guy. A number 1 who didn't really turn out. Decent slot corner, but lots a baggage.

[Pugger]

Thanks but no thanks. :no:

[mission]

Did someone bump the 'Packers interested in signing Charles Woodson" thread ?? :idea:

[hoosier]

Yeah, I've seen these. I still say that a quality cover CB is worth a 2.

I seem to recall quite a bit of bitchin on this board about the inability of a certain GB CB (Jarrett Bush, cough cough) to cover worth a crap. Cromartie gives the Pack a chance to have a really dominant secondary, with Tramon or Harris coming in on nickle. You're going to pass that up?

Would you give up a 2 for him just to get him for one year? I seem to remember that he's a UFA after 2010, and given his off-field reputation I have a hard time envisioning him wanting to be in Green Bay. I suppose if you think he is a key piece of a GB SB puzzle it would make sense. I am not convinced; I think he's a prima donna who is would not take well to a reduced role if and when Harris is back to full speed.

[Smidgeon]

Did someone bump the 'Packers interested in signing Charles Woodson" thread ?? :idea:

Charles Woodson's knock was that he couldn't stay healthy, not that he wasn't willing to tackle.

[mission]

Did someone bump the 'Packers interested in signing Charles Woodson" thread ?? :idea:

Charles Woodson's knock was that he couldn't stay healthy, not that he wasn't willing to tackle.

i thought it was because he was out partying every night and many thought he just wasn't very serious about football...

definitely not 'packer people'.

[Smidgeon]

Did someone bump the 'Packers interested in signing Charles Woodson" thread ?? :idea:

Charles Woodson's knock was that he couldn't stay healthy, not that he wasn't willing to tackle.

i thought it was because he was out partying every night and many thought he just wasn't very serious about football...

definitely not 'packer people'.

Personally, I don't care about what they do in their free time unless it's illegal. But I'd still rather have Woodson's "can't stay healthy" than Cromartie's "unwilling to tackle".

[Brandon494]

Cromartie > Hawk

Would do that trade in a heart beat.

[Fritz]

Man-o-manneschevitz - watching Cromartie on that play is like Antuan Edwards.

Honestly, doesn't he just slow right down and watch the running back go by? And this is a playoff game?

Please tell me how many I'm-on-him-like-a-fly-on-shit plays a player would have to make to make him worth that I-don't-think-I-want-to-tackle-anyone kind of play?

[Gunakor]

Cromartie > Hawk

Would do that trade in a heart beat.

Hawk > Cromartie too. They play different positions. At least Hawk tackles people.

Bigger issue is that Hawk is better than Desmond Bishop, so unless we have a comparable player to play ILB in Hawk's place I don't see how this is making our defense as a whole any better. Maybe a tad better on the back end, but our front 7 suffers for it. I say no way to this trade.

[Brandon494]

Cromartie > Hawk

Would do that trade in a heart beat.

Hawk > Cromartie too. They play different positions. At least Hawk tackles people.

Bigger issue is that Hawk is better than Desmond Bishop, so unless we have a comparable player to play ILB in Hawk's place I don't see how this is making our defense as a whole any better. Maybe a tad better on the back end, but our front 7 suffers for it. I say no way to this trade.

Right....

Thats why Hawk got pretty much no playing time earlier in the season before Chillar got hurt. Hawk is nothing but an average LB. So what if Cromartie isnt the greastest takcler, he is a CB. All I know is Cromarties has shown pontenial in the past while Hawk has looked no better since his rookie season.

To copy from you, the bigger issue is Cromartie is MUCH better than Bush while Hawk is no better than Chillar and slightly better than Bishop. We had the #1 rush defense in the league last season, we need help more in the secondary more than the front 7.

[sharpe1027]

Right....

Thats why Hawk got pretty much no playing time earlier in the season before Chillar got hurt. Hawk is nothing but an average LB. So what if Cromartie isnt the greastest takcler, he is a CB. All I know is Cromarties has shown pontenial in the past while Hawk has looked no better since his rookie season.

To copy from you, the bigger issue is Cromartie is MUCH better than Bush while Hawk is no better than Chillar and slightly better than Bishop. We had the #1 rush defense in the league last season, we need help more in the secondary more than the front 7.

Good discussion. You have a point about our nickel back, but for one, Bush only plays up if they have 3 injured DBs again. Otherwise we still have either T. Will or A. Harris at nickel and likely one of the young guys that were originally slated ahead of Bush. Second, given Cromartie's history, do you think for a minute he would put the team first and play nickel?

[rbaloha1]

Talent with too much of the field issues. Not worth the risk. Lets hope Pat Lee turns out to be a player.

[Smidgeon]

Cromartie > Hawk

Would do that trade in a heart beat.

Hawk > Cromartie too. They play different positions. At least Hawk tackles people.

Bigger issue is that Hawk is better than Desmond Bishop, so unless we have a comparable player to play ILB in Hawk's place I don't see how this is making our defense as a whole any better. Maybe a tad better on the back end, but our front 7 suffers for it. I say no way to this trade.

Right....

Thats why Hawk got pretty much no playing time earlier in the season before Chillar got hurt. Hawk is nothing but an average LB. So what if Cromartie isnt the greastest takcler, he is a CB. All I know is Cromarties has shown pontenial in the past while Hawk has looked no better since his rookie season.

To copy from you, the bigger issue is Cromartie is MUCH better than Bush while Hawk is no better than Chillar and slightly better than Bishop. We had the #1 rush defense in the league last season, we need help more in the secondary more than the front 7.

It is my opinion that you're downplaying Hawk's role in that #1 run defense. He's a thumper. He's not going to get the tackles because he's taking on blockers. While I would certainly have hoped for more out of a #5 pick in terms of game-changing plays, he's certainly better than average. He isn't great, he isn't amazing. But I think he's good. He's assignment sure and makes it easier for the other LBs to make plays.

[Brandon494]

I'm not downplaying his role, its a reason earlier in the season he was getting hardly no playing time. You don't think Chillar or Bishop could take on blockers ?

Listen I like the guy but Im not going to give him a free pass just because of that. He is a bust as the #5 pick and could be replaced easily. Do you really believe if we lost him for the season and he was replaced by Chillar or Bishop our run defense would drop that much because I dont.

As far as Cromartie I don't see any reason why he would have a problem playing nickel with two veterns like C Woodson and Al Harris ahead of him, thats if Al Harris can come back from his knee injury. If Harris is unable to return thats even more of a season to go after this guy.

[Smidgeon]

I'm not downplaying his role, its a reason earlier in the season he was getting hardly no playing time. You don't think Chillar or Bishop could take on blockers ?

Listen I like the guy but Im not going to give him a free pass just because of that. He is a bust as the #5 pick and could be replaced easily. Do you really believe if we lost him for the season and he was replaced by Chillar or Bishop our run defense would drop that much because I dont.

As far as Cromartie I don't see any reason why he would have a problem playing nickel with two veterns like C Woodson and Al Harris ahead of him, thats if Al Harris can come back from his knee injury. If Harris is unable to return thats even more of a season to go after this guy.

Yes, I think there would be a drop from Hawk to Bishop or Chiller in the role that Hawk plays. Bishop is too inconsistent. Capers admitted that last year when people were asking why he wasn't on the field. He said that when Bishop was more consistent he'd see the field more. As for Chiller, I'm not a scout, but it seems that he plays a different game than Hawk. He's more of a runner and a tackler who seems more likely to be taken out by a guard than to take out a guard. He's sideline to sideline like Barnett but doesn't have the same big hit to him. He's more quick twitch.

I think a good analogy of this is back in Hawk's rookie year. Whoever the third down RB was gave an interview about blitz pickup in camp. He was comparing LB's blitzing styles. He said that one LB just had the speed move to try to get around the RB, one LB (I think Barnett) would try to set up the RB and at the last minute dip around, and Hawk would just run over you. Those are three different styles, and I think the current LBs fit those three styles. Chiller is the speed guy without a ton of moves, Barnett's more talented and doesn't make a ton of mistakes, and Hawk just tries to run over you with brute power. He's more equipped to take on blockers than Chiller. That's my opinion.

[Guiness]

Right....

Thats why Hawk got pretty much no playing time earlier in the season before Chillar got hurt. Hawk is nothing but an average LB. So what if Cromartie isnt the greastest takcler, he is a CB. All I know is Cromarties has shown pontenial in the past while Hawk has looked no better since his rookie season.

To copy from you, the bigger issue is Cromartie is MUCH better than Bush while Hawk is no better than Chillar and slightly better than Bishop. We had the #1 rush defense in the league last season, we need help more in the secondary more than the front 7.

Good discussion. You have a point about our nickel back, but for one, Bush only plays up if they have 3 injured DBs again. Otherwise we still have either T. Will or A. Harris at nickel and likely one of the young guys that were originally slated ahead of Bush. Second, given Cromartie's history, do you think for a minute he would put the team first and play nickel?

Two of the three injuries you're referring to are Lee and Blackmon, neither guaranteed to be on the field before Bush.

[Smidgeon]

Right....

Thats why Hawk got pretty much no playing time earlier in the season before Chillar got hurt. Hawk is nothing but an average LB. So what if Cromartie isnt the greastest takcler, he is a CB. All I know is Cromarties has shown pontenial in the past while Hawk has looked no better since his rookie season.

To copy from you, the bigger issue is Cromartie is MUCH better than Bush while Hawk is no better than Chillar and slightly better than Bishop. We had the #1 rush defense in the league last season, we need help more in the secondary more than the front 7.

Good discussion. You have a point about our nickel back, but for one, Bush only plays up if they have 3 injured DBs again. Otherwise we still have either T. Will or A. Harris at nickel and likely one of the young guys that were originally slated ahead of Bush. Second, given Cromartie's history, do you think for a minute he would put the team first and play nickel?

Two of the three injuries you're referring to are Lee and Blackmon, neither guaranteed to be on the field before Bush.

Although at least Blackmon appeared to be past Bush on the depth chart.

[sharpe1027]

Two of the three injuries you're referring to are Lee and Blackmon, neither guaranteed to be on the field before Bush.

If Bush is really as bad as most people claim, then it's a pretty good bet. Nothing is guaranteed.

Anyway, I doubt he would be happy playing in a reduced role and I doubt the Packers would pay him the type of money he seems to want for that reduced role. I could be wrong, but a guy that quits on his team doesn't strike me as the type of guy that is going to look at the big picture. Is he really going to put the team's success over his own and be happy with Al and Woodson getting more press/attention? I guess stranger things have happened, but I'm not taking that bet.

[Gunakor]

If Hawk weren't the #5 overall pick, rather he were picked by Green Bay in the second round or later, would he still need to be traded if his production were the same as it has been?

The only reason being picked so high would by itself justify a trade is if we needed to free up cap space and concluded Hawk's salary wasn't justified by his performance. We are in no perdicament there. Even if Hawk's production doesn't justify his salary, we can afford to pay it to him anyway. That being the case, there's no reason to trade a solid player when there is no comparable talent behind him on the depth chart. We can afford to overpay him far more than we can afford to lose him.

Where Hawk was picked in the draft several years ago doesn't matter anymore. All that matters is what he does on the field. We don't have anyone behind him that can do what Hawk does better than Hawk does it. If we do, I haven't seen it. I've seen Bishop and Chillar, and they ain't it. Chillar does what Chillar can do better than Hawk can do it, Bishop doesn't do anything better than anybody.

But if Bishop is really the better player, why don't we try to trade Bishop for Cromartie straight up and see where that takes us. Or Chillar even! LOL, think they'd bite? I think they'd laugh. And if Thompson could pull off a trade like that I'd give him Executive of the Year for life.

[Gunakor]

Two of the three injuries you're referring to are Lee and Blackmon, neither guaranteed to be on the field before Bush.

Blackmon has seen the field on defense before Bush previously, when healthy. I think it's a pretty safe bet that he was ahead of Bush on the depth chart again this year.

As for Lee, I don't know. He was drafted as a press corner, before the switch to Capers. In his rookie preseason he looked like a rookie during preseason, but Bush has looked like a rookie for 3 years now. Lee would not have needed a whole lot of improvement in his game to overtake Bush.

Bush is garbage, and should not be seeing the field other than for ST's. Even when 4 DB's are lost to IR. He's that bad.

[get louder at lambeau]

Two of the three injuries you're referring to are Lee and Blackmon, neither guaranteed to be on the field before Bush.

Blackmon has seen the field on defense before Bush previously, when healthy. I think it's a pretty safe bet that he was ahead of Bush on the depth chart again this year.

As for Lee, I don't know. He was drafted as a press corner, before the switch to Capers. In his rookie preseason he looked like a rookie during preseason, but Bush has looked like a rookie for 3 years now. Lee would not have needed a whole lot of improvement in his game to overtake Bush.

Bush is garbage, and should not be seeing the field other than for ST's. Even when 4 DB's are lost to IR. He's that bad.

He's also younger than Pat Lee.

[Maxie the Taxi]

The state of our secondary is a very tough thing to analyze without inside knowledge.

From film available to the public we can see that Bush just doesn't seem to have football instincts. He's often caught out of position or with his head not in the game.

Have we really seen enough of Lee, Underwood or even Blackmon to judge competently?

Remember, a bunch of us were quick to catagorize Aaron Rodgers is an injury-prone pansy when he didn't have a lot of playing time. Blackmon seems brittle, but who really knows but the doctors and coaches?

I tend to look at Josh Bell, Ford and company as "emergency roster fillers" but who really knows but the coaches. Look at Ryan Grant, a "roster filler" who became really, really good.

I like Underwood's potential, but beyond that I'll trust TT and staff.