TT signs punter

[Spaulding]

JSO has article out there that TT signed an Aussie punter to a three year deal? Is that common for length of a FA deal? Evidently was in house back in 2004 but no whispers of NFL since. Assuming camp fodder but if the guy can punt up to his size, maybe a poor man's Ray Guy :D

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/87856677.html

[Tony Oday]

6-feet-5, 215 pounds

if he isnt any good at punting maybe he can run and be a WR! :)

[Scott Campbell]

JSO has article out there that TT signed an Aussie punter to a three year deal? Is that common for length of a FA deal? Evidently was in house back in 2004 but no whispers of NFL since. Assuming camp fodder but if the guy can punt up to his size, maybe a poor man's Ray Guy :D

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/87856677.html


It's pretty common in a league without guaranteed contracts.


His coach was the one that was in the house back in 04 - not this kid.

[CaliforniaCheez]

Camp leg. He will be around to help the special teams practices in training camp.

Ted will find somebody else too.

Aussie football begins again in April. He is risking his old job to try for a new one.

[RashanGary]

Ol' tight wad Ted, signing another budget nobody.

[pbmax]

Ol' tight wad Ted, signing another budget nobody.
Can Tauscher punt?

[Freak Out]

Is Mesko worth throwing a pick at? I've never seen the guy play.....

[vince]

Now that's searching the world over to find what you need. Here are some Aussie Rules Football highlights of the guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVdQAID2E0c

Between this and watching his punting footage on the JSO link, I like him better than Kapinos already.

[Fritz]

Watching Mesko at U of M, I saw a guy with a booming leg who had no sense of the intricacies of punting. I'm no special teams coach, but he seems like a pretty raw prospect.

[Scott Campbell]

Watching Mesko at U of M, I saw a guy with a booming leg who had no sense of the intricacies of punting. I'm no special teams coach, but he seems like a pretty raw prospect.


I thought the same thing. His mechanics seemed inconsistent to me. But his kicks were very consistent - both in distance and hangtime. There were no shanks, and no 30 yarders.

[Fritz]

My memory's hazy, but I think when Mesko first started punting for Lloyd Carr, ol' Lloyd was trying that Australian kicking thing, where the punter gets the snap, runs off to the right and punts while on the run. This was because the special teams kept getting punts blocked.

That I think occurred when Mesko was a young punter. If it was him, then no wonder his mechanics are messed up.

[CaptainKickass]

Can Tauscher punt?


Hell....

Someone better take a look-see if Crosby can Punt.

[vince]

Bryan had 5 tryouts scheduled and the Packers were the first. Upon seeing him punt at his private tryout in Green Bay, they immediately signed him before any of the other tryouts could occur. That would seem to be a pretty strong indication that they liked what they saw.

But that logical conclusion isn't drawn by the hacks at JSO - this time by Betard and his partner in crime, McGinn. McGinn is a little more nuanced at it though, at least citing another of his infamous anonymous sources to voice the unending criticisms. Among other half-truths and misleading content is this nugget.


A special-teams coach with intimate knowledge of prospects in Australia said Bryan was only mediocre.

"From what everybody over there said (Bryan) was a good guy, but he was nothing special, and they named three, four or five guys that were better than him," the coach said. "One of them was Rocca's brother (Anthony), who actually signed with the Eagles but got homesick and left."
Sounds like the guy has real intimate knowledge Bob. He heard from some more anonymous people over in Australia. That's not even first-hand information from a second hand source, much less intimate knowledge.

McGinn also goes on to profile all the failures and also-rans from Australia, projecting those traits onto Bryan, while ignoring the successes of some of today's better kickers from Down Under.

Benny Smith of Prokick Australia, who along with Nathan Chapman, coached Bryan, says that McGinn is "confused" about the whole situation. Based on past history from McGinn and company, I'd say that's stating it nicely.


The "mediocre punter" described in that article [by McGinn] is not Chris. Chris has not taken part in any camps and his Green Bay tryout was conducted in complete privacy with only Green Bay coaches in attendance. There are so many inaccuracies in that article it is disturbing. A real case of mistaken identity and not enough research once again.

To the contrary Benny, McGinn did just enough research to put together the critical tone of article he wanted from the get-go. I don't expect Prokick Australia to be objective in their information here, but they appear to be more so than the JSO. That's disturbing.

Of course, no-one knows if Bryan is going to be any good, or even make the team, but that doesn't stop McGinn from criticizing him and Thompson before anyone on the outside can have any realistic perspective whether this is a good move or not. Par for the course at JSO.

One thing that can be said is that the move doesn't carry any cost if he gets beat out by someone better. Another potential upgrade without risk that draws premature criticism from the hacks.

From the practice tape provided by Prokick Australia that's posted on Youtube, Bryan averaged 47.6 yds a punt and 4.8 seconds of hangtime in the 20 punts. There was little to no wind on that day judging from the trees the loose fitting clothes on his coach. There were 3 cuts in the 20 punts that were recorded, so in fairness it is possible that bad kicks were edited. However, also in fairness, there were less than stellar kicks that were included, so it appears to be a relatively fair and accurate recording of a practice session. The fact that the Packers quickly snatched him up after a live tryout would support that.

That distance would have ranked him 3rd in the NFL last year, and the hangtime is significantly above the average in the NFL, which based on the data I’ve been able to access from Philadelphia kickers and opponents over the last decade is about 4.25 seconds on average. It’s impossible to know if the balls were somehow bouncier than the real NFL game day variety and it’s safe to assume kicking in Green Bay in the fall will be different than Australia in the late summer/early fall. He took a 2-step approach, so getting the ball off shouldn’t be a problem.

Did JSO report any of that information? Of course not, the only thing Betard reported on the blog was, “He appears to be a left-footed kicker” (no shit) and he has hangtimes “over 4” and distances “over 50,” but “he looks slow to punt.” He then provides a link to an Australian Rules highlight where Bryan gets a kick blocked.

Astute observations Greg, and way to get that dig in and try to shape negative perception right from the get-go. Wouldn’t expect anything different from you, McGinn and an outfit like yours.

In other news not provided by the Urinal Mintenal, this punter has some potential.

[pbmax]

Well, Benny Smith didn't exactly refute anything McGinn wrote. McGinn didn't describe any public workouts or call him a mediocre punter. His source said he was not top two or three of the available legs out of Australian Rules Football. And Smith has a horse in this race. So he is not exactly an uninterested observer.

But I do want to see the article where Smith spoke. And the videos. Vince, can you post the links? The video posted earlier showed him landing a number of punts between 40 and 45 yards. Encouragingly, they were all over 4 seconds of hang time.

[pbmax]

Bedard's blog entry is reasonable. The primary video is his workout from his coaches which paints him in a pretty good light. He doesn't even mention the edits in the video which might put the lie to our earlier estimation of his distance and hangtime. Its also ridiculous to compare this to actual game conditions. To be fair, you would need good weather workouts from all other NFL punters to make a like for like comparison.

McGinn's article carries an argument for the mis-handling of the punter position by McCarthy and Thompson. It is hard to argue that they have handled that position well. But he gives credence to both arguments for Bryan's chances. Before the unnamed scout rules him below the top prospects (which for the Packers could be an improvement), McGinn gives earlier weight to his coaches assessment and lists the Australian Rules kickers who have succeeded and notes he maybe a better prospect than his coach was.

Outside of an accurate video, which we cannot be sure we are getting, the most significant fact might be the fact that he has never played American Rules Football. The fact that the Packers signed him might tell us more about their desperation than about the punter's chances. I hope it works out, but its far from certain. College kickers usually need to bust out of camp once or twice before sticking. He has a heck of a learning curve ahead of him

[vince]

You’re saying it’s ridiculous to project a punter’s potential by comparing his simulated NFL punting performance with other punters’ actual performance doing the same thing, but it’s reasonable to project a punter’s potential based on a specifically-selected, isolated video of an entirely different game, with different rules, different kicking circumstances altogether – as Bedard did?

What reasonable (or ridiculous) measures do you think the Packers took, and the other five teams would have taken, to project his potential? I’m pretty sure they didn’t fly in the Bears and invite 70,000 into Lambeau to play a few games and try him out, or ask all the other punters in the league to show up to the Hutson Center to compare him to.

A demonstration of his leg strength in punting the football enables one to reasonably assess whether he has the potential to succeed. Now we will see if he can fulfill that potential in different weather and in game situations. That is/was all fully acknowledged. The comparison to the leg strenght of other punters taking the same action on the football gives the closest context available. His leg strength compares adequately (perhaps favorably) with other punters on other teams in the league.

Bedard's blog and McGinn’s article are only reasonable if you want to assume the negative before this guy is tested in game situations. No one would assume that Prokick Australia is objective - as I stated, but his coach’s quote in McGinn’s article is about the only reasonable perspective in the article.

Long shot? Not at all. He's there to help them win a Super Bowl. Now he has to produce.
Again, no one expects objectivity from this guy’s trainers, but people do have the right to expect objectivity from the JSO. McGinn and Bedard clearly are not here, in my opinion, and rarely are when it comes to coverage of Ted Thompson’s GM activities. Sure they pay lip-service to objectivity to enough of an extent to keep themselves above board, but they consistently ignore information which would shed a positive light on situations – as they’ve done here - and highlight negative spins – as they’ve done here. In fact, they typically ignore positive article opportunities altogether, and consistently give a negative spin on neutral news items that can’t be ignored. They’re “reasonable” if you want to be paid lip-service to half the facts and circumstances and ultimately be consistently proven wrong. This goes back to McGinn's article last offseason about how the state of the Packers was the worst it's been since the 70's. That may have been a reasonable perspective, but it was also blatantly wrong and incredibly biased.

Regarding Bryan’s learning curve, it’s not like he’s an offensive lineman here PB. If he can catch the snap (he can), take 2 steps and position the ball (he can) and kick it far and high, far or high, and maybe even angle it too, in game situations, he’s 99% there. He’s been controlling kicks, often on the run, as a rucker already, and he’s demonstrated the potential for those things to the Packers staff personally and in the video. From there, his Australian Rules skills may even help him make a tackle down field if needed. He probably can run a fake and throw the ball some. That’d put him ahead of the learning curve for most punters.

Regarding the above comments, Smith didn’t refute what McGinn said. How exactly does one refute a statement about another statement about other anonymous’ people’s opinions? He stated that they are incorrect. What else would you ask him to do?
The quote was from an Australian forum that follows the activities of Australian Rules Football. If you go back a couple pages and read the thread, I think it’s reasonable to assume that Johnny is who he says he is. Johnny Smith (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=533265&page=9)
The referenced videos were from Bedard’s blog.

[pbmax]

You’re saying it’s ridiculous to project a punter’s potential by comparing his simulated NFL punting performance with other punters’ actual performance doing the same thing, but it’s reasonable to project a punter’s potential based on a specifically-selected, isolated video of an entirely different game, with different rules, different kicking circumstances altogether – as Bedard did?

I don't think Bedard draws any conclusions from that video. It was at the end of the blog post. If he did, then he is an idiot. But there is no indication he did.


What reasonable (or ridiculous) measures do you think the Packers took, and the other five teams would have taken, to project his potential? I’m pretty sure they didn’t fly in the Bears and invite 70,000 into Lambeau to play a few games and try him out, or ask all the other punters in the league to show up to the Hutson Center to compare him to.

Man did you get up on the wrong side of the grumpy bed. I doubt the Packers did anything of the sort. What the Packers DO have is a record of every punter they have ever worked out or seen at the combine. Therefore, they have points of comparison for the punter that we do not.


A demonstration of his leg strength in punting the football enables one to reasonably assess whether he has the potential to succeed. Now we will see if he can fulfill that potential in different weather and in game situations. That is/was all fully acknowledged. The comparison to the leg strenght of other punters taking the same action on the football gives the closest context available. His leg strength compares adequately (perhaps favorably) with other punters on other teams in the league.

I agree on potential. But you were comparing his video kick stats to actual kicks on NFL games. There were no people rushing the kid in the workout. So to determine if he has the necessary leg strength, you need an apples to apples comparison. I do not agree that you can conclude what you did in the last sentence of that paragraph from a workout video; esp. one that has been edited.


but his coach’s quote in McGinn’s article is about the only reasonable perspective in the article.
[quote="Nathan Chapman"]Long shot? Not at all. He's there to help them win a Super Bowl. Now he has to produce.

From whose perspective is this reasonable? As a fan, I would like to believe this kid will kick us to the Super Bowl. But he has never played the game before. So while the coach's confidence is understandable, his conclusion is not reasonable.


Sure they pay lip-service to objectivity to enough of an extent to keep themselves above board, but they consistently ignore information which would shed a positive light on situations – as they’ve done here - and highlight negative spins – as they’ve done here. In fact, they typically ignore positive article opportunities altogether, and consistently give a negative spin on neutral news items that can’t be ignored.

This contention is demonstrably false. If JSO wanted you to be convinced the punter would fail, then the workout video would not have been made available as the first video link. Other items by JSO writers have been catastrophes, but this one fails to meet your test for bias.


Regarding Bryan’s learning curve, it’s not like he’s an offensive lineman here PB. If he can catch the snap (he can), take 2 steps and position the ball (he can) and kick it far and high, far or high, and maybe even angle it too, in game situations, he’s 99% there. He’s been controlling kicks, often on the run, as a rucker already, and he’s demonstrated the potential for those things to the Packers staff personally and in the video. From there, his Australian Rules skills may even help him make a tackle down field if needed. He probably can run a fake and throw the ball some. That’d put him ahead of the learning curve for most punters.
If there was no more to the learning curve than that, college punters would routinely latch on in their rookie years. They do not. There is a high failure rate. His experience in Australia will clearly help him, but not every Aussie football player succeeds either. And no one keeps a punter based on downfield tackling. Its great, and I loved Jon Ryan's attitude while covering, but it isn't anywhere on the list of concerns.

And thanks for the link to the story from your earlier post.

[vince]

I don't think Bedard draws any conclusions from that video. It was at the end of the blog post. If he did, then he is an idiot. But there is no indication he did.
Of course Bedard doesn't explicitly draw a conclusion from the video, and of course there is just enough hint of objectivity so as to not explicitly lose credibility. As you said, doing that would demonstrate that he's an idiot. Idiots don't hold jobs very long. Bedard is not and idiot.

It would be most reasonable and objective to just include the punting video and perhaps a breakdown of some factual analysis, but he doesn't. He includes the punting video and then criticizes it with his opinion. Then he adds the completely irrelevant video.... Why do you suppose he would pick that one video out of the others available which profile Bryan to add in? Random selection? How is the inference from the inclusion of this video reasonable when you say he would be an idiot for drawing the only conclusion that it drives?


What the Packers DO have is a record of every punter they have ever worked out or seen at the combine. Therefore, they have points of comparison for the punter that we do not.
I couldn't agree more. Too bad Bedard and McGinn completely ignored this fact and instead premised their coverage by attempting to discredit the Packers. It's quite possible - perhaps even probable based on your statement here, that the Packers have improved their situation with this move, but, while the idea is paid lip-service through a thin veil of objectivity, you have to search to find any acknowledgement of that in their work.


I agree on potential. But you were comparing his video kick stats to actual kicks on NFL games.
My sole purpose in the comparison was to take the best data available for context in order to demonstrate potential - not a ridiculous thing to conclude. But unfortunately, that is something JSO only reluctantly acknowledges under their veil of objectivity, but in fact went out of their way to deny IMO.

Bryan may well not make the regular season roster. As his own coach said, "Now he needs to produce." It's reasonable to acknowledge that based on what is known, Bryan isn't a "long shot" as the question was posed to his coach. He's on the team. There aren't enough spots for long-shot punters. Now he has to produce. The part about him helping the team try to win the Super Bowl is the meaningless sentence in teh quote. The rest of what he said are what is relevant to the point at hand.

Skepticism doesn't equal reality. And an imbalanced article that pays lip service to one perspective doesn't equal objectivity. In my opinion, the balance of the JSO pieces are hardly objective. Including counterpoints to an argument - and then immediately attempting to defeat them does not make a piece objective. In fact, it's usually necessary to make the intended position more persuasive.

[vince]

Not surprisingly, JSO completely omitted McCarthy's comments on the punting situation altogether from their coverage at the NFL annual meetings.

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/ic/blogs/insider/index.shtml


McCarthy likes his punters...

"I know the ability in our competitive punting situation we have today is better than what it was last year," McCarty said. "I feel strongly that we’ll be better just from a pure productive standpoint of just punting the football."

Remember, last year at this time the Packers had Jeremy Kapinos (who ended up winning the job, struggled in 2009 and then was not offered a contract for 2010) and Durant Brooks, both of whom had punted in the league previously.

Masthay is a first-year player who kicked at Kentucky from 2005-08, while Bryan is a 28-year old former Australian Rules Football player who has never played American football.

"I think there's more ability there," McCarthy said. "Where they are, what they've shown to this point, I think it'll be noticeable to all you guys when you see them kick for the firs time. ... They're both strong physically when you look at them, they're both tall, linear guys. They have good fundamentals. There's a lot of talent there."

Edit: Here's Silversteen's article, which is basically the same as the GBPG blog above. He was just slower in getting it published. McCarthy sees potential in two inexperienced punters (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/88881447.html)