WHY OH WHY didnt we make this trade?!

[Tony Oday]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Miami-Dolphins-trade-Ted-Ginn-Jr-to-San-Francisco-49ers-041610


Wow

[sharpe1027]

He's nothing special as a WR, but for only a 5th round pick I would have liked to have seen whether he could have spiced up the Packer's return game.

[Tony Oday]

He's nothing special as a WR, but for only a 5th round pick I would have liked to have seen whether he could have spiced up the Packer's return game.

TRUE on the WR but what kind of a return guy can we get with a 5th rounder?

[red]

i don't think we have a roster spot for a wr that doesn't have any wr skills

we already have talented guys buried on the practice squad waiting for a spot

[sharpe1027]

i don't think we have a roster spot for a wr that doesn't have any wr skills

we already have talented guys buried on the practice squad waiting for a spot

He can take Swain's spot, or one of the three FBs. He's probably as much WR as Swain anyway. I realize that Swain has "potential," but he's also got the potential not to make the team.

[Patler]

Considering that Ginn's career punt return average isn't even close to Blackmon's, and his career kickoff return average is slightly less than Jordy Nelson's, how would he help the Packers return game????

[packerbacker1234]

Considering that Ginn's career punt return average isn't even close to Blackmon's, and his career kickoff return average is slightly less than Jordy Nelson's, how would he help the Packers return game????

He's a decent return man who stays healthy? And he does get about 30 to 40 catches a year. He's hardly a "horrible" WR, he's just not the stud they thought they drafted. He's still a servicable 4th wr, possibly a 3rd if he gets proper training.

[get louder at lambeau]

Considering that Ginn's career punt return average isn't even close to Blackmon's, and his career kickoff return average is slightly less than Jordy Nelson's, how would he help the Packers return game????

By being a big-name former top 10 pick. Duh. Don't you realize how much greener the grass is outside of Green Bay? :wink:

[Patler]

Considering that Ginn's career punt return average isn't even close to Blackmon's, and his career kickoff return average is slightly less than Jordy Nelson's, how would he help the Packers return game????

He's a decent return man who stays healthy? And he does get about 30 to 40 catches a year. He's hardly a "horrible" WR, he's just not the stud they thought they drafted. He's still a servicable 4th wr, possibly a 3rd if he gets proper training.

I don't know, is he a decent return man? They basically took him off punt returns after his rookie year (just 12 in 32 games since then) and on kickoff returns he averages 23 yards.

I don't think he would be much of an improvement on returns or as a receiver. At least based on what he has done so far.

[Patler]

Considering that Ginn's career punt return average isn't even close to Blackmon's, and his career kickoff return average is slightly less than Jordy Nelson's, how would he help the Packers return game????

By being a big-name former top 10 pick. Duh. Don't you realize how much greener the grass is outside of Green Bay? :wink:

You got that right! :lol:

[Lurker64]

Also, considering that the Niners pick before we do in the fifth round, and the Niners offered up a fifth round pick for Ginn, we would have to outbid the 49ers and offer more than a 5th round pick to get Ginn. The Dolphins could really care less which NFC team they sent him to, they'll just take the best offer they get, which wouldn't have been our fifth round pick.

[sharpe1027]

Last year Ginn had 24.9 yds/kick return and Jordy had 25.4, a difference of .6 yards. Ginn had two TDs and Jordy had none. Personally, I'd take the TDs and give up .6 yards.

Blackmon has better stats for punt returns, but when Jordy had to step in he was terrible.

I can't tell you that he would be better than Nelson or Blackmon for sure, but I'd think he'd at least be competitive. I'm not going out on a limb to say that I'm pretty sure that he'd be more useful as a WR than Swain.

[Bretsky]

I'd take Ginn in a second for a fifth

Stats aside, the guy IS a threat on special teams to go to the house. We don't have that.

He'd be a nice last WR and ST demon.

With that being said, I don't think I'd give a 4th for him and as somebody pointed out the Whiners have a better 5th round pick than we do.

[Patler]

Last year Ginn had 24.9 yds/kick return and Jordy had 25.4, a difference of .6 yards. Ginn had two TDs and Jordy had none. Personally, I'd take the TDs and give up .6 yards.

Blackmon has better stats for punt returns, but when Jordy had to step in he was terrible.

I can't tell you that he would be better than Nelson or Blackmon for sure, but I'd think he'd at least be competitive. I'm not going out on a limb to say that I'm pretty sure that he'd be more useful as a WR than Swain.

...and in about 100 kickoff return before last year Ginn had no TDs, and just a 22 yard average, so what does that prove?

Personally, I would take the guy who gets 20-30 yards every kickoff with no TDs over the guy who gets 15-25 and a TD every couple years.

[highlander]

Last year Ginn had 24.9 yds/kick return and Jordy had 25.4, a difference of .6 yards. Ginn had two TDs and Jordy had none. Personally, I'd take the TDs and give up .6 yards.

Blackmon has better stats for punt returns, but when Jordy had to step in he was terrible.

I can't tell you that he would be better than Nelson or Blackmon for sure, but I'd think he'd at least be competitive. I'm not going out on a limb to say that I'm pretty sure that he'd be more useful as a WR than Swain.

...and in about 100 kickoff return before last year Ginn had no TDs, and just a 22 yard average, so what does that prove?

Personally, I would take the guy who gets 20-30 yards every kickoff with no TDs over the guy who gets 15-25 and a TD every couple years.

I agree with evrything that you said about Ginn. However a 5th!!! That in my opinion is worth taking a look. Great signing by SF.

[Patler]

Last year Ginn had 24.9 yds/kick return and Jordy had 25.4, a difference of .6 yards. Ginn had two TDs and Jordy had none. Personally, I'd take the TDs and give up .6 yards.

Blackmon has better stats for punt returns, but when Jordy had to step in he was terrible.

I can't tell you that he would be better than Nelson or Blackmon for sure, but I'd think he'd at least be competitive. I'm not going out on a limb to say that I'm pretty sure that he'd be more useful as a WR than Swain.

...and in about 100 kickoff return before last year Ginn had no TDs, and just a 22 yard average, so what does that prove?

Personally, I would take the guy who gets 20-30 yards every kickoff with no TDs over the guy who gets 15-25 and a TD every couple years.

I agree with evrything that you said about Ginn. However a 5th!!! That in my opinion is worth taking a look. Great signing by SF.

Ya, I can see that, sort of. Had the Packers been the ones to make the trade I would have been OK with it, but I'm not going to lament the fact they didn't. Basically, I don't look at Ginn as an more of a sure thing to improve the team than any 5th round pick they might find. So I can't say it is a "great" signing by SF, anymore than I will look at any 5th round pick as a "great" pick. Just a guy who might help, might not help, or might not even be here come September.

[Tarlam!]

I remember thinking he was a reach being taken where he was. I had him going late first, early second. And I only saw him player a couple times, but he certainly flashed at times.

Well, we're gonna find out first hand if Ginn is a player, since the 49ers are coming to Lambeau this season.

Patler, I know you've nailed it with the stats - you always do. Rarely would I contradict you, but this time I have to, I'm afraid.

Well, no, let me correct myself. My gut contradicts you.

My gut tells me, Ginn could have been better if he wasn't in that Dolphins transitional organisation. Also, the fact that he was booed upon selection wasn't helpful - a bit like our own Harrell. It must be very confidence-robbing when you hear yourself being booed.

My gut tells me he would have been a star in Green Bay and he will do great
in SFC.

Personally, I'll be comparing who we nab in the 4th to Ginn.

[Fritz]

I remember thinking he was a reach being taken where he was. I had him going late first, early second. And I only saw him player a couple times, but he certainly flashed at times.

Well, we're gonna find out first hand if Ginn is a player, since the 49ers are coming to Lambeau this season.

Patler, I know you've nailed it with the stats - you always do. Rarely would I contradict you, but this time I have to, I'm afraid.

Well, no, let me correct myself. My gut contradicts you.

My gut tells me, Ginn could have been better if he wasn't in that Dolphins transitional organisation. Also, the fact that he was booed upon selection wasn't helpful - a bit like our own Harrell. It must be very confidence-robbing when you hear yourself being booed.

My gut tells me he would have been a star in Green Bay and he will do great
in SFC.

Personally, I'll be comparing who we nab in the 4th to Ginn.

Then again, Tar, the Packers' special teams blocking has been pretty poor the last couple years (well, they're good at blocking in the back) so who's to say that Ginn's numbers would have been better in GB?

I'm with Patler on this one. He's a guy. A guy who had a big name and has speed, but has not done too much in the NFL. I think a fifth round pick is about right for him, but as someone pointed out, since the Niners pick ahead of GB, the Pack would have to have moved up or given up a fourth to get Ginn. And that, too me, would be too much to pay.

[Tarlam!]

I think a fifth round pick is about right for him, but as someone pointed out, since the Niners pick ahead of GB, the Pack would have to have moved up or given up a fourth to get Ginn. And that, too me, would be too much to pay.

Ja, that's why I'll be comparing what our #4 does in comparison to Ginn.

Apparently, Ginn bad-mouthed a heckler on twitter. Quite vulgar language, which raises some eyebrows.

I'll be delighted if my gut feeling on is totally wrong and Ginn remains JAG, especially when he comes to Lambeau.

[twoseven]

using past stats to try and prove how someone will play in another system is hardly effective considering what Desmond Howard did prior to GB and what he accomplished for us in 96'.

and will blackmon has been great when he has not be sidelined with an injury, and that's been few and far in between.

[Fritz]

I think a fifth round pick is about right for him, but as someone pointed out, since the Niners pick ahead of GB, the Pack would have to have moved up or given up a fourth to get Ginn. And that, too me, would be too much to pay.

Ja, that's why I'll be comparing what our #4 does in comparison to Ginn.

Apparently, Ginn bad-mouthed a heckler on twitter. Quite vulgar language, which raises some eyebrows.

I'll be delighted if my gut feeling on is totally wrong and Ginn remains JAG, especially when he comes to Lambeau.

In fact, if he'd be less than a JAG at Lambeau and cough up the football a couple times, that'd be even better...

[Cleft Crusty]

My sources tell me that Joey Jamison will be available in the sixth round.

[sharpe1027]

...and in about 100 kickoff return before last year Ginn had no TDs, and just a 22 yard average, so what does that prove?

Personally, I would take the guy who gets 20-30 yards every kickoff with no TDs over the guy who gets 15-25 and a TD every couple years.

Before last year Jordy Nelson's average per return was horrendous at about 18.9. So, what does that prove? Which is more relevant, stats from two years ago or last year? Either way, the stats are in Ginn's favor.

Also, could you explain where the 20-30 yards and 15-25 yards come from? If you are discounting Ginn's long TDs, shouldn't we also be normalizing Jordy's yards by taking away his longest runs?

I'm only using the stats because you used them in an effort to prove your point in the first place, I completely agree that they don't tell the whole story.

[The Leaper]

Jordy isn't much of a kick returner...but giving up a 4th for Ginn, who offers next to nothing as a receiver, would have been dumb.

[Tarlam!]

giving up a 4th for Ginn, who offers next to nothing as a receiver, would have been dumb.

Maybe. Pick #122 (50 points) versus pick#145 (33.5 points). Miami didn't have a 5th. Now they do.

If the teams had swapped 6th's plus TT's 5th, the Pack could have perhaps had this guy.

His draft status put him under all sorts of pressure to be the #1 WR. Cam Cameron lasted how long? And the Tuna is a bit like the new male in a Lion pack - he just kills off the young from the previous dominent male.

One things certain, he's not expected to be the #1 receiver now. If he was playing poorly due to his environment/ the pressure, then this seems a small price to pay.

I hope I'm wrong about this, I really do. At any rate, according to his twitter account, I doubt he's Packer People.

[Patler]

using past stats to try and prove how someone will play in another system is hardly effective considering what Desmond Howard did prior to GB and what he accomplished for us in 96'.

and will blackmon has been great when he has not be sidelined with an injury, and that's been few and far in between.

The problem with Desmond Howard was that prior to coming to Green Bay teams tried to focus on using him as a wide receiver. He was not used a lot returning kicks or punts. He had more returns in one year at Green Bay than in four seasons prior to '96. (I have a vague recollection of the Packers having to convince him to focus on being a return man, not a receiver. I might be thinking of someone else.)

For Howard, it was more of a change in opportunity than in performance.

[Patler]

...and in about 100 kickoff return before last year Ginn had no TDs, and just a 22 yard average, so what does that prove?

Personally, I would take the guy who gets 20-30 yards every kickoff with no TDs over the guy who gets 15-25 and a TD every couple years.

Before last year Jordy Nelson's average per return was horrendous at about 18.9. So, what does that prove? Which is more relevant, stats from two years ago or last year? Either way, the stats are in Ginn's favor.

Also, could you explain where the 20-30 yards and 15-25 yards come from? If you are discounting Ginn's long TDs, shouldn't we also be normalizing Jordy's yards by taking away his longest runs?

I'm only using the stats because you used them in an effort to prove your point in the first place, I completely agree that they don't tell the whole story.

I didn't dig down in the stats. The ranges were just thrown in as a hypothetical to emphasize a point, not intended to reflect any fact for either player. Had I wanted to do that I would have used exact averages, not such a large range. My point for it was that TDs mean little to me if not coupled with a high overall average, because if you have two long TDs and a so-so overall average, without the two TDs you are not very good on the other returns. I will gladly take a player from whom you can expect 20-30 yards every return, never getting beyond midfield, over a player from whom you usually get only 15-25, but occasionally get a TD. Whether Ginn. Nelson or anyone else actually fits in those categories, I haven't bothered to look.

My main point is simply this. Ginn has shown nothing in my mind that leads me to believe he would necessarily be an improvement over someone the Packers already have, whether it be Jordy Nelson, Will Blackmon or Tramon Williams; or someone they might pick this year. I can't even say it is likely that he would be. As a result, I do not at all wish the Packers had made the trade, though if they had I would have been indifferent to it.

[sharpe1027]

I didn't dig down in the stats. The ranges were just thrown in as a hypothetical to emphasize a point, not intended to reflect any fact for either player. Had I wanted to do that I would have used exact averages, not such a large range. My point for it was that TDs mean little to me if not coupled with a high overall average, because if you have two long TDs and a so-so overall average, without the two TDs you are not very good on the other returns. I will gladly take a player from whom you can expect 20-30 yards every return, never getting beyond midfield, over a player from whom you usually get only 15-25, but occasionally get a TD. Whether Ginn. Nelson or anyone else actually fits in those categories, I haven't bothered to look.

My main point is simply this. Ginn has shown nothing in my mind that leads me to believe he would necessarily be an improvement over someone the Packers already have, whether it be Jordy Nelson, Will Blackmon or Tramon Williams; or someone they might pick this year. I can't even say it is likely that he would be. As a result, I do not at all wish the Packers had made the trade, though if they had I would have been indifferent to it.

I too would take someone that averaged 5 yards more per return as well; however, 5 yards per return is a very large difference, not relevant to any true numbers, and thus a straw man argument. Not to mention that just about the only way you will ever see that much disparity is if the one player consistently breaks large gains and the other does not. Making up a hypothetical that is the other way around just seems unrealistic.

My main point is simply that Ginn has shown something in my mind that leads me to believe he is an improvement over Jordy Nelson and Bret Swain, whether as a WR or a kick returner. He would also be better than either of those two as a backup PR to Blackmon, which history has shown us is necessary due to his injuries.

There are no guarantees, but I would not have minded if the Packers had picked him up for something around a 5th.

[Patler]

Players with 10 yard ranges of "expected returns" having a 5 yard overlap could have the same overall average. But that is also my point. I will take the player who gets that average from a smaller deviation worst-to-best, than the player with the larger deviation worst-to-best. I prefer consistency.

[Fritz]

I believe you are right about Howard. He wanted to be seen as a receiver, a complete player, not just a return guy. But he couldn't get off the jams at the line of scrimmage.

When he finally realized that he could best make his mark as a return guy, he settled in quite nicely.

[sharpe1027]

Players with 10 yard ranges of "expected returns" having a 5 yard overlap could have the same overall average. But that is also my point. I will take the player who gets that average from a smaller deviation worst-to-best, than the player with the larger deviation worst-to-best. I prefer consistency.

Jordy Nelson: 36 total returns - 4 returns of 40+yards = 11.1% long returns
Ted Ginn: 147 total returns - 7 returns of 40+yards - = 4.7% long returns

Jordy might be considered the more inconsistent one with a disproportionate amount of long returns skewing his average of otherwise poor returns. Of course, I haven't taken the time to actually look at each of the 200 returns and run a full analysis. That would be way too much work for me to do on a Sunday!

I still feel that there's a good chance that Ginn would beat out Jordy for kick returns and would push for time as the 3rd or 4th WR. Not a big deal either way I guess.

[twoseven]

using past stats to try and prove how someone will play in another system is hardly effective considering what Desmond Howard did prior to GB and what he accomplished for us in 96'.

and will blackmon has been great when he has not be sidelined with an injury, and that's been few and far in between.

The problem with Desmond Howard was that prior to coming to Green Bay teams tried to focus on using him as a wide receiver. He was not used a lot returning kicks or punts. He had more returns in one year at Green Bay than in four seasons prior to '96. (I have a vague recollection of the Packers having to convince him to focus on being a return man, not a receiver. I might be thinking of someone else.)

For Howard, it was more of a change in opportunity than in performance.you could post things like this all day long for years and years. i'll cite Charles Woodson as another example of how stats do not tell the whole story, and i suppose they didn't use him right in Oak but we did? that's why they play the games, and that's why i rarely even bother to comment on things like this because i know exactly how the discussions go. it still doesn't change the fact that blackmon has not stayed healthy and is hardly the guy you can expect to be there all year long.

[twoseven]

were Ginn to somehow be relegated to return duties only and produce, who is then complaining about his role on the team? There are plenty of well paid individuals that cost a 4th rounder or more on our roster that are not living up to these same expectations based on their salary and when they got picked. How dare we take a chance on another one? What was Rossum doing for us years ago when we last had a reliable and uninjured return game, was he expected to catch passes on a regular basis?

[Tarlam!]

There are plenty of well paid individuals that cost a 4th rounder or more on our roster that are not living up to these same expectations based on their salary and when they got picked.


+1

This why I'll be so curious as what actually transpires with our #4 pick this year. That is, if TT actually uses it! :P

EDIT: I don't know the terms of Ginns contract, but 9th overall, it must be something like B.J. Raji's. That might be a show stopper for TT.

[Patler]

using past stats to try and prove how someone will play in another system is hardly effective considering what Desmond Howard did prior to GB and what he accomplished for us in 96'.

and will blackmon has been great when he has not be sidelined with an injury, and that's been few and far in between.

The problem with Desmond Howard was that prior to coming to Green Bay teams tried to focus on using him as a wide receiver. He was not used a lot returning kicks or punts. He had more returns in one year at Green Bay than in four seasons prior to '96. (I have a vague recollection of the Packers having to convince him to focus on being a return man, not a receiver. I might be thinking of someone else.)

For Howard, it was more of a change in opportunity than in performance.you could post things like this all day long for years and years. i'll cite Charles Woodson as another example of how stats do not tell the whole story, and i suppose they didn't use him right in Oak but we did? that's why they play the games, and that's why i rarely even bother to comment on things like this because i know exactly how the discussions go. it still doesn't change the fact that blackmon has not stayed healthy and is hardly the guy you can expect to be there all year long.

Howards performance a return man was good before '96, he just didn't do it very much.

I don't get your reference to Woodson at all. He was an all-Pro in Oakland, missed time due to broken body parts, and himself admits to having gotten a bad attitude from the environment, but his performance wasn't bad in Oakland.

Woodson might even be a good example as to why the Packers should stick with Blackmon. Many felt Woodson would never stay healthy again after missing lots of games for the Raiders. But, knock on wood, he has stayed relatively healthy in Green Bay. If Blackmon can do the same, I like him over Ginn as a return man. He has demonstrated this more than Ginn has.

I will say it one last time. If the Packers had made the trade for Ginn, it would have bothered me not at all. But I don't see it as much of a lost opportunity that they did not.

[Patler]

Players with 10 yard ranges of "expected returns" having a 5 yard overlap could have the same overall average. But that is also my point. I will take the player who gets that average from a smaller deviation worst-to-best, than the player with the larger deviation worst-to-best. I prefer consistency.

Jordy Nelson: 36 total returns - 4 returns of 40+yards = 11.1% long returns
Ted Ginn: 147 total returns - 7 returns of 40+yards - = 4.7% long returns

Jordy might be considered the more inconsistent one with a disproportionate amount of long returns skewing his average of otherwise poor returns. Of course, I haven't taken the time to actually look at each of the 200 returns and run a full analysis. That would be way too much work for me to do on a Sunday!

I still feel that there's a good chance that Ginn would beat out Jordy for kick returns and would push for time as the 3rd or 4th WR. Not a big deal either way I guess.

Don't mistake my indifference toward Ginn for support of Nelson. Personally, I don't think either one gives you much of a threat as a kick returner.

ya, if you really want to look at the effect of their long returns, you need to look at yardage from those long returns and how it influenced their average returns. Jordy's long last year was something like 55 yards, as I recall (too lazy to look). Ginn had a couple TDs (I think) so I assume something like 90-100 yards or so for each of those. For last season anyway, his long returns probably had a fairly significant impact on his average.

[Patler]

were Ginn to somehow be relegated to return duties only and produce, who is then complaining about his role on the team? There are plenty of well paid individuals that cost a 4th rounder or more on our roster that are not living up to these same expectations based on their salary and when they got picked. How dare we take a chance on another one? What was Rossum doing for us years ago when we last had a reliable and uninjured return game, was he expected to catch passes on a regular basis?

Who said it would be wrong to take the chance? I would have been fine if we did, but I don't care that we didn't.

Personally, I am hoping that the football gods smile on Blackmon and restore his good health. This is a guy who was never injured in college, but can't seem to get it going in the pros.

[Tarlam!]

Many felt Woodson would never stay healthy again after missing lots of games for the Raiders. But, knock on wood, he has stayed relatively healthy in Green Bay.

It's interesting that you mention this, because I vaguely remember TT signing Woodson to a contract based on games played. The knock on him in Oakland was similar to the knock on Brandon Marshall in Denver, overplaying injuries not to play IIRC.

His first year with the Pack, he missed all the voluntary staff, but boy, has he changed! He's really bought into the programme.

[twoseven]

I don't get your reference to Woodson at all. He was an all-Pro in Oakland, missed time due to broken body parts, and himself admits to having gotten a bad attitude from the environment, but his performance wasn't bad in Oakland.when did i say it was bad?

in 34 LESS games in GB, Woodson has 28 more passes defended, 11 more picks, and 5 more touchdowns than his OAK days.

i said stats on a prior team don't always tell the whole story, and clearly his GB stats are MUCH, MUCH better. you don't understand my reference? i think it's pretty black and white.

[Tarlam!]

in 34 LESS games in GB, Woodson has 28 more passes defended, 11 more picks, and 5 more touchdowns than his OAK days.


And he'll be the first to tell you that the increased productivity comes from having Al Harris on the other corner, whereas in Oakland he had nobody, so he was never thrown at.

[twoseven]

Personally, I am hoping that the football gods smile on Blackmon and restore his good health. This is a guy who was never injured in college, but can't seem to get it going in the pros.i am with you, i like blackmon a lot, think he is extremely talented. but the reality is he keeps geting hurt and the team is left with a big hole in the return game each time. IMO the only thing keeping us from having the talent to command the NFC is a return man, more solid Oline play, and a better safety next to Collins. how long do you continue to hope Blackmon stops getting hurt before you look elsewhere?

[Patler]

I don't get your reference to Woodson at all. He was an all-Pro in Oakland, missed time due to broken body parts, and himself admits to having gotten a bad attitude from the environment, but his performance wasn't bad in Oakland.when did i say it was bad?

in 34 LESS games in GB, Woodson has 28 more passes defended, 11 more picks, and 5 more touchdowns than his OAK days.

i said stats on a prior team don't always tell the whole story, and clearly his GB stats are MUCH, MUCH better. you don't understand my reference? i think it's pretty black and white.

Nope, didn't follow it at all, and still don't with respect to the discussion about Ginn. Woodson was unquestionably a very good NFL player even when he was with the Raiders, regardless of his stats. I can't say the same for Ginn, nor can I come up with a plausible reason for his lack of production except that he is what he is.

Just my opinion. Is Ginn worth the risk of a low draft pick? Sure. Is it a big deal the Packers didn't pull this one off? No, not in my opinion.

[twoseven]

in 34 LESS games in GB, Woodson has 28 more passes defended, 11 more picks, and 5 more touchdowns than his OAK days.


And he'll be the first to tell you that the increased productivity comes from having Al Harris on the other corner, whereas in Oakland he had nobody, so he was never thrown at.so then tell me why nobody wanted Woodson then when we picked him up? bad attitude will only carry this conversation so far.

[sharpe1027]

To be fair though, Jordy didn't have many returns total so even a few long returns would have a fairly significant impact on his average.

Ginn is not a D. Howard (worse returner, better WR), but, I feel like he'd be more likely to improve the team than a WR they could get with a 5th round pick.

[Patler]

Personally, I am hoping that the football gods smile on Blackmon and restore his good health. This is a guy who was never injured in college, but can't seem to get it going in the pros.i am with you, i like blackmon a lot, think he is extremely talented. but the reality is he keeps geting hurt and the team is left with a big hole in the return game each time. IMO the only thing keeping us from having the talent to command the NFC is a return man, more solid Oline play, and a better safety next to Collins. how long do you continue to hope Blackmon stops getting hurt before you look elsewhere?

The Blackmon question is a real head scratcher. Woodson missed 20+ games in four season before signing with GB, but has had good health since.

Blackmon has really had two injuries of significance as I recall, a broken foot suffered the last day of rookie mini-camp while running (I think), then his knee injury last year. I'm not sure those things are injuries that show he is prone to injuries as much as just unlucky so far.

I think he has enough talent as a returner to stick with him another season. But they need a better fall back plan if he goes down.

[Tarlam!]

so then tell me why nobody wanted Woodson then when we picked him up? bad attitude will only carry this conversation so far.

Sorry, I don't know what your getting at. What has Woodson's attitude got to do with him stating on numerous occasions that Al Harris has helped increase his prodctivity?

Maybe you were referring to an earlier post, but I really don't get the segueway.

[twoseven]

I don't get your reference to Woodson at all. He was an all-Pro in Oakland, missed time due to broken body parts, and himself admits to having gotten a bad attitude from the environment, but his performance wasn't bad in Oakland.when did i say it was bad?

in 34 LESS games in GB, Woodson has 28 more passes defended, 11 more picks, and 5 more touchdowns than his OAK days.

i said stats on a prior team don't always tell the whole story, and clearly his GB stats are MUCH, MUCH better. you don't understand my reference? i think it's pretty black and white.

Nope, didn't follow it at all, and still don't with respect to the discussion about Ginn. Woodson was unquestionably a very good NFL player even when he was with the Raiders, regardless of his stats. I can't say the same for Ginn, nor can I come up with a plausible reason for his lack of production except that he is what he is.

Just my opinion. Is Ginn worth the risk of a low draft pick? Sure. Is it a big deal the Packers didn't pull this one off? No, not in my opinion.
well, if you don't get it, i guess i must be wrong.

stop trying to put words into my mouth regarding Ginn. i am hardly claiming they have similar situations, i merely stated that stats don't tell the whole story from one team to another. this discussion is growing hilarious, a bunch of regular people that do not actually have a job evaluating talent for the NFL laying down stats to prove their own argument concerning a situation that will never happen in the first place i.e. what Ginn would do in a GBP uniform considering his MIA games thus far.

[twoseven]

so then tell me why nobody wanted Woodson then when we picked him up? bad attitude will only carry this conversation so far.

Sorry, I don't know what your getting at. What has Woodson's attitude got to do with him stating on numerous occasions that Al Harris has helped increase his prodctivity?

Maybe you were referring to an earlier post, but I really don't get the segueway.i am not questioning what you bring up about harris, i agree. but still, NOBODY else wanted woodson when we signed him as a FA. why? some will say he was not packer people based on his attitude. i do not believe that somebody that was as good as Patler is claiming he was in OAK would have no other suitors, and i don't think too many teams would opt oaway from his because of his attitude (which is why i brought it up, more as a 'don't bother saying his attitude was the only reason he ws out there').

[Patler]

in 34 LESS games in GB, Woodson has 28 more passes defended, 11 more picks, and 5 more touchdowns than his OAK days.


And he'll be the first to tell you that the increased productivity comes from having Al Harris on the other corner, whereas in Oakland he had nobody, so he was never thrown at.so then tell me why nobody wanted Woodson then when we picked him up? bad attitude will only carry this conversation so far.

Bad attitude somewhat, injuries as much or more. The talk was that he had lost his desire to play. Had some clear injuries like a broken leg, but didn't want to play through others. Missed 8, 1, 3 and 10 games the preceding four years. Many questioned if he would ever play a full season again, or if he even wanted to.

[Tarlam!]

And with that knock on Woodson, TT cut a great deal based on games he played.

Subsequently, he became a Packer People type guy as is evidenced by his attendance at voluntary OTA, which he never did previously.

[sharpe1027]

Nope, didn't follow it at all, and still don't with respect to the discussion about Ginn. Woodson was unquestionably a very good NFL player even when he was with the Raiders, regardless of his stats. I can't say the same for Ginn, nor can I come up with a plausible reason for his lack of production except that he is what he is.

Just my opinion. Is Ginn worth the risk of a low draft pick? Sure. Is it a big deal the Packers didn't pull this one off? No, not in my opinion.

Unless you are going to say that Woodson's play at Oakland was considered to be as good as his play has been since his move to GB, you should at least acknowledge the point the OP was trying to make.

Plausible reason for his lack of production: Miami's kick return unit wasn't very good. That has to at least be plausible.

[sharpe1027]

a bunch of regular people that do not actually have a job evaluating talent for the NFL laying down stats to prove their own argument concerning a situation that will never happen in the first place i.e. what Ginn would do in a GBP uniform considering his MIA games thus far.

You pretty much summed up the point of the entire thread (frankly you could say something similar about the entire board). It might be a little hypocritical to post in the thread and then make this statement, don't you think? :(

[Patler]

Nope, didn't follow it at all, and still don't with respect to the discussion about Ginn. Woodson was unquestionably a very good NFL player even when he was with the Raiders, regardless of his stats. I can't say the same for Ginn, nor can I come up with a plausible reason for his lack of production except that he is what he is.

Just my opinion. Is Ginn worth the risk of a low draft pick? Sure. Is it a big deal the Packers didn't pull this one off? No, not in my opinion.

Unless you are going to say that Woodson's play at Oakland was considered to be as good as his play has been since his move to GB, you should at least acknowledge the point the OP was trying to make.

Plausible reason for his lack of production: Miami's kick return unit wasn't very good. That has to at least be plausible.

The Ginn/Woodson thing is getting a bit overboard. I understand what was trying to be said, I just don't think it is closely enough related to support an argument. For that reason, I don't get it.

I acknowledge that maybe Miami's kick return units weren't good, but kick returns is one area in which a really talented performer can make quite a showing in spite of his supporting cast. It might be the best "freelance" opportunity in football, although a great team around will make it even better. I don't know that Ginn showed that.

Must be the off-season, for us to discuss this for so long!

[Patler]

I don't get your reference to Woodson at all. He was an all-Pro in Oakland, missed time due to broken body parts, and himself admits to having gotten a bad attitude from the environment, but his performance wasn't bad in Oakland.when did i say it was bad?

in 34 LESS games in GB, Woodson has 28 more passes defended, 11 more picks, and 5 more touchdowns than his OAK days.

i said stats on a prior team don't always tell the whole story, and clearly his GB stats are MUCH, MUCH better. you don't understand my reference? i think it's pretty black and white.

Nope, didn't follow it at all, and still don't with respect to the discussion about Ginn. Woodson was unquestionably a very good NFL player even when he was with the Raiders, regardless of his stats. I can't say the same for Ginn, nor can I come up with a plausible reason for his lack of production except that he is what he is.

Just my opinion. Is Ginn worth the risk of a low draft pick? Sure. Is it a big deal the Packers didn't pull this one off? No, not in my opinion.
well, if you don't get it, i guess i must be wrong.

stop trying to put words into my mouth regarding Ginn. i am hardly claiming they have similar situations, i merely stated that stats don't tell the whole story from one team to another. this discussion is growing hilarious, a bunch of regular people that do not actually have a job evaluating talent for the NFL laying down stats to prove their own argument concerning a situation that will never happen in the first place i.e. what Ginn would do in a GBP uniform considering his MIA games thus far.

Best we drop this one. I don't think either of us is understanding the other at this point! :lol:

I know most of what I have been trying to say has been misinterpreted.

[pbmax]

so then tell me why nobody wanted Woodson then when we picked him up? bad attitude will only carry this conversation so far.

Sorry, I don't know what your getting at. What has Woodson's attitude got to do with him stating on numerous occasions that Al Harris has helped increase his prodctivity?

Maybe you were referring to an earlier post, but I really don't get the segueway.i am not questioning what you bring up about harris, i agree. but still, NOBODY else wanted woodson when we signed him as a FA. why? some will say he was not packer people based on his attitude. i do not believe that somebody that was as good as Patler is claiming he was in OAK would have no other suitors, and i don't think too many teams would opt oaway from his because of his attitude (which is why i brought it up, more as a 'don't bother saying his attitude was the only reason he ws out there').

His asking price is what you may be missing to solve the puzzle.

[sharpe1027]

His asking price is what you may be missing to solve the puzzle.

Wasn't GB also one of the few (or only) that wanted him at CB rather than safety?

[Bretsky]

His asking price is what you may be missing to solve the puzzle.

Wasn't GB also one of the few (or only) that wanted him at CB rather than safety?


Actually I think we were the only one

It came down to us versus Tampa Bay, and they wanted him as a safety.

And REMEMBER....only reason we were bidding on him was because Lavar Arrington shunned us and took less money to play elsewhere.

THANK YOU LAVAR

[Tarlam!]

And REMEMBER....only reason we were bidding on him was because Lavar Arrington shunned us and took less money to play elsewhere.

I forgot that completely, Bretsky, but you're 100% correct. I remember being realled POed about it, because I wanted that guy badly.

Shows you how little I know!

Don't they have the same agent?

[twoseven]

You pretty much summed up the point of the entire thread (frankly you could say something similar about the entire board). It might be a little hypocritical to post in the thread and then make this statement, don't you think? :(oh, it was definitely that. now all we need to do is coin a term for relentlessly arguing back and forth, trying to prove yourself right (is that what is going on?) concerning opinion, of all things.

[sharpe1027]

oh, it was definitely that. now all we need to do is coin a term for relentlessly arguing back and forth, trying to prove yourself right (is that what is going on?) concerning opinion, of all things.

I believe the term you are looking for is an "online forum."

[swede]

oh, it was definitely that. now all we need to do is coin a term for relentlessly arguing back and forth, trying to prove yourself right (is that what is going on?) concerning opinion, of all things.

I believe the term you are looking for is an "online forum."

No it isn't.

[twoseven]

oh, it was definitely that. now all we need to do is coin a term for relentlessly arguing back and forth, trying to prove yourself right (is that what is going on?) concerning opinion, of all things.

I believe the term you are looking for is an "online forum."and i believe the phrase you should be looking for is sense of humor..lighten up, Francis.

[sharpe1027]

oh, it was definitely that. now all we need to do is coin a term for relentlessly arguing back and forth, trying to prove yourself right (is that what is going on?) concerning opinion, of all things.

I believe the term you are looking for is an "online forum."and i believe the phrase you should be looking for is sense of humor..lighten up, Francis.

I guess my attempt at making fun of situation was a failure.

[Scott Campbell]

oh, it was definitely that. now all we need to do is coin a term for relentlessly arguing back and forth, trying to prove yourself right (is that what is going on?) concerning opinion, of all things.

I believe the term you are looking for is an "online forum."and i believe the phrase you should be looking for is sense of humor..lighten up, Francis.

I guess my attempt at making fun of situation was a failure.


I laughed.

[swede]

oh, it was definitely that. now all we need to do is coin a term for relentlessly arguing back and forth, trying to prove yourself right (is that what is going on?) concerning opinion, of all things.

I believe the term you are looking for is an "online forum."and i believe the phrase you should be looking for is sense of humor..lighten up, Francis.
I still say it's not.

[hoosier]

I believe you are right about Howard. He wanted to be seen as a receiver, a complete player, not just a return guy. But he couldn't get off the jams at the line of scrimmage.

When he finally realized that he could best make his mark as a return guy, he settled in quite nicely.

For a year. But then he left for Oakland in FA because Big Al promised him that the Raiders would give him a real chance at playing on offense. That didn't work out so well.

[Tarlam!]

I still say it's not.

OK, Swede, I'll play.

And I say it is!!

[Cheesehead Craig]

Somehow Ted Ginn has created a 4 page thread here. Things are really bad.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I think the first and best way to improve the forum is to have more discipline on special teams. More assignment-sure blocking. Fewer big returns brought back by unnecessary and off the ball holding calls.

As far as Ginn goes, he was never as good as his draft status and his upside is nearly exhausted. I'd rather take a flyer on a raw kid with speed in the 5th round and see what he can do.

[twoseven]

I still say it's not.

OK, Swede, I'll play.

And I say it is!!in german, please.

[sharpe1027]

I think the first and best way to improve the forum is to have more discipline on special teams. More assignment-sure blocking. Fewer big returns brought back by unnecessary and off the ball holding calls.


Keeping three fullbacks on the forum roster should solve most of those problems.