Questions on Rape - continuing the Ben thread

[Scott Campbell]

So what's the deal with alcohol and consent? If a woman says yes, but she's intoxicated, it's rape? And if so, how does that work if the man says yes but was drunk. Is the woman a rapist? And if they're both drunk, are they both rapists?

If this law only can be used against a male perpetrator, that seems gender biased to me. At least on the surface.

Maybe somebody can explain the logic behind it. It's not intuitive to me.

[MJZiggy]

So what's the deal with alcohol and consent? If a woman says yes, but she's intoxicated, it's rape? And if so, how does that work if the man says yes but was drunk. Is the woman a rapist? And if they're both drunk, are they both rapists?

If this law only can be used against a male perpetrator, that seems gender biased to me. At least on the surface.

Maybe somebody can explain the logic behind it. It's not intuitive to me.

Here's my understanding and opinion: I believe that as the law states, if a person is compromised, they cannot give consent (like I don't think you can make a binding contract while drunk), be it man or woman (but a man is so less likely to press charges). I believe under the law that it is possible to rape a man, though technically I'd assume pretty difficult to get him to "perform" against his will but men do get raped by other men. As to my opinion, if you got drunk and said yes, you should just shut up and wake up with regrets as most in that situation do. I think if two people get drunk and have sex, it is what it is, but my understanding of the "big" Ben case is that this is not what happened and that's where it gets ugly for him. The difference is that she did not say yes and tried to leave.

For the record, though, I was not so much offended by Harrell's post. But having dealt with him in the past and seeing the lack of comprehension in his response to my posts, I thought perhaps if I drove it home hard enough, he might realize that the facts in the Roethlisberger case are not simply a girl getting drunk and doing something she'd regret later. It was not a matter of her feeling bad because he left the bedroom after a little nookie. He forced himself on her in a bathroom in a bar. There's a world of difference there.

By the way, I disagree that that discussion was worth leaving the forum over. There have been plenty worthy, but this was simply a case of JH being a bullheaded idiot. (sorry JH). He didn't call FC or anyone else names on the topic, he merely stuck to a wrong opinion/definition. No one in the thread got to namecalling, did they? In contrast to every Favre thread/post since his second unretirement. Like Joe said, at that time, folks had reason to want to stop posting, but this is small beans in comparison. It's just a matter of getting JH to progress another couple hundred years, but honestly most of his posts since his latest banning have been respectful football discussion.

[Scott Campbell]

So what's the deal with alcohol and consent? If a woman says yes, but she's intoxicated, it's rape? And if so, how does that work if the man says yes but was drunk. Is the woman a rapist? And if they're both drunk, are they both rapists?

If this law only can be used against a male perpetrator, that seems gender biased to me. At least on the surface.

Maybe somebody can explain the logic behind it. It's not intuitive to me.

Here's my understanding and opinion: I believe that as the law states, if a person is compromised, they cannot give consent (like I don't think you can make a binding contract while drunk), be it man or woman (but a man is so less likely to press charges). I believe under the law that it is possible to rape a man, though technically I'd assume pretty difficult to get him to "perform" against his will but men do get raped by other men. As to my opinion, if you got drunk and said yes, you should just shut up and wake up with regrets as most in that situation do. I think if two people get drunk and have sex, it is what it is, but my understanding of the "big" Ben case is that this is not what happened and that's where it gets ugly for him. The difference is that she did not say yes and tried to leave.



This alcohol thing looks like a really slippery slope to me. I'm not sure how you can lump in a drunken regrettable yes with a violent rape. They're two very, very different acts.

[MJZiggy]

So what's the deal with alcohol and consent? If a woman says yes, but she's intoxicated, it's rape? And if so, how does that work if the man says yes but was drunk. Is the woman a rapist? And if they're both drunk, are they both rapists?

If this law only can be used against a male perpetrator, that seems gender biased to me. At least on the surface.

Maybe somebody can explain the logic behind it. It's not intuitive to me.

Here's my understanding and opinion: I believe that as the law states, if a person is compromised, they cannot give consent (like I don't think you can make a binding contract while drunk), be it man or woman (but a man is so less likely to press charges). I believe under the law that it is possible to rape a man, though technically I'd assume pretty difficult to get him to "perform" against his will but men do get raped by other men. As to my opinion, if you got drunk and said yes, you should just shut up and wake up with regrets as most in that situation do. I think if two people get drunk and have sex, it is what it is, but my understanding of the "big" Ben case is that this is not what happened and that's where it gets ugly for him. The difference is that she did not say yes and tried to leave.



This alcohol thing looks like a really slippery slope to me. I'm not sure how you can lump in a drunken regrettable yes with a violent rape. They're two very, very different acts.

I agree with this. That's why I gave what I think is the legal definition vs. my opinion. To me the "regrettable yes" (nice phrasing) while drunk shouldn't constitute rape. After all, then what's the guy supposed to do? She said yes and in the morning he's got police knocking on his door. That's not right. With this legal definition, you also have to get into the whole discussion (likely in court and paying the lawyers by the hour) of how drunk is too drunk to consent? Is it after one beer? Two? I can see perhaps blaming drunkenness if she's passed out cold and he just helps himself, but at the same time while that's ugly and an obvious personal violation, it's not the same trauma as being pulled into an alley and assaulted at knifepoint.

[Scott Campbell]

I can see perhaps blaming drunkenness if she's passed out cold and he just helps himself............


That fits the definition of rape to me.

[Tarlam!]

She never said a drunken yes, according to her. She went straight to the police. The accused took advantage of her and if it were my daughter, he would now be called the deceased.

Look, I've lived a little. I've been out and about. I've received and provided drunken yes's. But I've also received and ALWAYS respected drunk/sober no's.

Did I try and sweet talk a drunk/sober no into a yes? C'mon, I'm a hetero dude! We've all done our sweet talking! And you lady rats have all been sweet talked to, enibriated or sober. That's the way the game is played.

But the usually stronger male of the species has the ultimate responsibility if a couple make love(lust) or a rape takes place.

[Administrator]

Scott, yes, that's what I meant. If she's passed out, that would be rape.

Tar, we're in agreement. We all have our lusty interludes some better than others, but they're consenting.

[Administrator]

In this individual case, the only reason I wonder if it was actually rape, was because her first story was that she said, "no, this isn't right" and he said, "yes, it's OK, it is". . . .

Just based on her first statement, it was right on that gray line to me. Was the, "yes, it's OK" pursuasive enough for her to stop with the no's and go along, or was it an, "against her will" rape?


Her statement, after the attorney, was much less gray.


When I read that rape case, I don't see a whole lot of gray area if Ben's a decent person. I don't think he is, at this point in his life. But is he a rapist? I'm not certain. Just reading that first statement, it reads something like some regrettable sex I've had.

I sort of resisted, but after a little sleezy female convincing, I gave in and had the regrettable sex.

If it was rape, and it very well could have been, he belongs in prison. If it wasn't rape and Ben is just a creepy piece of shit that deceives and manipulates women into sex, then he's still a dirt ball, but doesn't belong in prison, just hell if he can't find his way to being a decent person.

[Administrator]

Check this out. It's from the University of Georgia.


http://www.uga.edu/ovp/sexvio.html


Examples of sexual violence


Using threats and intimidation to get sex is sexual violence.
"My partner threatened to break up with me if we didn't have sex soon, so I just went along with it even though I didn't want to."

Not taking no for an answer is sexual violence.
"My spouse wanted to have sex, but I didn't. I kept saying no, but my spouse would not leave me alone. I didn't know what else to do, so I just gave in."

Using drugs or alcohol to facilitate sex is sexual violence.
"She said no at first, but after a few hours of me buying her drinks at the bar it was easy to get her to come home with me and have sex."

Using physical force or threats of force to get sex is sexual violence.
"I said no, but the person just held me down and did it anyway."

Unwanted sexual touching (sexual battery) is sexual violence.
"I was on a crowded bus and someone grabbed my butt."

Unwanted requests, comments, jokes, name-calling, or rumors of a sexual nature are sexual violence.
"He told everyone that I was a slut and would sleep with anyone."

Street harassment is sexual violence.
"I was out for a jog and a car full of people drove by and yelled obscene things at me."

[Administrator]

Unwanted requests, comments, jokes, name-calling, or rumors of a sexual nature are sexual violence.[/b]
"He told everyone that I was a slut and would sleep with anyone."



What is that's Madonna, talking about Jose Canseco?

[Administrator]

Using drugs or alcohol to facilitate sex is sexual violence.
"She said no at first, but after a few hours of me buying her drinks at the bar it was easy to get her to come home with me and have sex."


I hope two mimosas isn't going to get anybody convicted of rape. This is ridiculous.

[Administrator]

I think it's one of two things here:


1. Ben is a rapist. Tiger, Wilt, Brett, all of the those with rumors of infidelity and promiscuity. . . . Nobody is accused of rape really, except Ben. The reason? Because he's a rapist.


The other thing I think is possible is:

2. Ben goes out on a mission to have sex with a beautiful girl. He doesn't want dirt balls. He wants beautiful, normal girls that he's attracted to and probably aren't infested with every disease known to man. He treats them really well, gets them in high pressure sex situations and has sex with them. Immediately after, he treats them so badly that they feel disgusting and dirty for having been used. With that horrible feeling, they file sexual assault charges.



Honestly, the 2nd sounds far fetched. He's probably a rapist, but I don't know that it's a certainty. There's no reason to be fair to a rapist, but I don't see enough proof for me to categorize him as a rapist, let alone convict him (although I strongly suspect it).

[Administrator]

I was in the process of splitting topics to create this thread. You guys were posting so fast, I couldn't keep up and I cannot merge threads.

NO POSTS WERE LOST.

continue on.... :P <sigh>

[Scott Campbell]

Using threats and intimidation to get sex is sexual violence.
"My partner threatened to break up with me if we didn't have sex soon, so I just went along with it even though I didn't want to."



Anyone that willingly caves into this kind of pressure has some serious issues. It does not fit what I would define as sexual violence.

[Scott Campbell]

Using physical force or threats of force to get sex is sexual violence.
"I said no, but the person just held me down and did it anyway."



I'd call that rape, but who am I to argue with the University of Georgia.

[Scott Campbell]

In this individual case, the only reason I wonder if it was actually rape, was because her first story was that she said, "no, this isn't right" and he said, "yes, it's OK, it is". . . .

Just based on her first statement, it was right on that gray line to me.



It's not at all gray to me. She said no.

[MJZiggy]

Using threats and intimidation to get sex is sexual violence.
"My partner threatened to break up with me if we didn't have sex soon, so I just went along with it even though I didn't want to."



Anyone that willingly caves into this kind of pressure has some serious issues. It does not fit what I would define as sexual violence.

If your boyfriend announcing your sluttines is sexual violence, this surely must be. But I agree, this is the point where she should have just saved him the trouble.

Ya know, I wonder if it matters his comments on her sluttiness are true...!

[RashanGary]

True, SC. The guy might just be being honest (although obviously an ass hole not worthy of the girls affection).

But anyway, if she asks him why he wants to break up and he says, "Sex is important to me, I'm not getting it from you so I'd rather break up with you".

And then she does it. Yeah, she's being intimidated and controlled, but she's giving that control.

In the eyes of god, he's got some fault. In the eyes of the law, that's not breaking a law. That's called her not respecting herself enough to get what she wants in life and surround herself with good people.

[RashanGary]

But then again. the University of Georgia isn't calling this criminal sexual violence. They're calling this sexual violence and to that, I agree.

The person using that control over the other person is violating them. Not to the point of criminal conviction IMO, but to the point of, "that person is not being good to you so LEAVE you idiot!!"

It's a good guideline for what not to take from your significant other and all are nice red flags for strongly considering getting the hell out of that relationship, especially if the person is too stubborn listen and realize whatever he/she is doing is wrong.

[MJZiggy]

True, SC. The guy might just be being honest (although obviously an ass hole not worthy of the girls affection).

But anyway, if she asks him why he wants to break up and he says, "Sex is important to me, I'm not getting it from you so I'd rather break up with you".

And then she does it. Yeah, she's being intimidated and controlled, but she's giving that control.

In the eyes of god, he's got some fault. In the eyes of the law, that's not breaking a law. That's called her not respecting herself enough to get what she wants in life and surround herself with good people.

In the eyes of god he's an idiot and will likely be one of the many men suffering later in life with erectile dysfunction. That would at least prove beyond doubt that god exists...

[Scott Campbell]

Here's some of what is disappointing to me about that list.

1) It's published by the University of Georgia.
2) It lumps marginally disgusting behavior in with felony rape.
3) Kids probably read it and end up more screwed up than if they hadn't read it.

[Tarlam!]

That would at least prove beyond doubt that god exists...

Oh, puhlease!!!! Take out the religion. This all has nothing whatsoever to do with God. God doesn't punish people. God is not responsible for rapes, earthquakes, murders or volcanoes in Iceland screwing up European flight plans.

God certainly didn't make it happen that this poor little girl was abused by a 6'5" 250 lb arsehole being guarded/aided by his bodyguards.

[MJZiggy]

That would at least prove beyond doubt that god exists...

Oh, puhlease!!!! Take out the religion. This all has nothing whatsoever to do with God. God doesn't punish people. God is not responsible for rapes, earthquakes, murders or volcanoes in Iceland screwing up European flight plans.

God certainly didn't make it happen that this poor little girl was abused by a 6'5" 250 lb arsehole being guarded/aided by his bodyguards.

It was a joke, love.

[Tarlam!]

Here's some of what is disappointing to me about that list.

1) It's published by the University of Georgia.
2) It lumps marginally disgusting behavior in with felony rape.
3) Kids probably read it and end up more screwed up than if they hadn't read it.

And, it's strongly feministic and probably, gays contributed over proportionally.

[RashanGary]

That's not what she was saying, tar. I brought god in because sometimes we're confusing things that we know are wrong with things that are criminally wrong.

[MJZiggy]

Here's some of what is disappointing to me about that list.

1) It's published by the University of Georgia.
2) It lumps marginally disgusting behavior in with felony rape.
3) Kids probably read it and end up more screwed up than if they hadn't read it.

You're probably right. I wish they'd have distinguished between sexual violence and rape. I mean if you look at it logically, I don't think a guys going to get 10 years for being an ass to his girlfriend.

Do you think they teach this stuff in class (other than criminal law?)

[Administrator]

Not pushing the envelope, but this just in from NFL.com.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8179a78b&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Lets try and not tick off the Admin or Lady Rats, huh?

[Administrator]

Actually this article is germane to the discussion in the Romper Room thread as it indicates that the Rooney's are not going to tolerate his behavior. I wasn't aware that the Vegas case hadn't been resolved yet and to me that will make Goodell's decision more interesting. Without resolution to that case, does this mean he's looking at a second (third) offense? Roethisburger best hope that whoever takes over for him while he's suspended sucks. Bad.

[Administrator]

OK. Look. I live in Germany, but I have no idea what "germane" means. And I'm too lazy to use the thesaurus, cause I can't spell that either!

[Administrator]

OK. Look. I live in Germany, but I have no idea what "germane" means. And I'm too lazy to use the thesaurus, cause I can't spell that either!

This article applies to that discussion. It's relevant.

[Administrator]

Ja, well I PMed Joe to combine the threads, cause we started the threads at about the same time.

And you could have said "pertainent" "relevant" or "germane". You chose the latter, for which I can never forgive you!

[Administrator]

Ja, well I PMed Joe to combine the threads, cause we started the threads at about the same time.

And you could have said "pertainent" "relevant" or "germane". You chose the latter, for which I can never forgive you!

If you don't forgive me, I will never sleep with you.

[Tarlam!]

If you don't forgive me, I will never sleep with you.

Promises, promises.

[MJZiggy]

Joe,

Quit being so damned efficient. I can't keep up.

[Administrator]

Joe,

Quit being so damned efficient. I can't keep up.

I'm exhausted. I'm going to bed. Now. :P

[Tarlam!]

That's not what she was saying, tar. I brought god in because sometimes we're confusing things that we know are wrong with things that are criminally wrong.

I'm willing to learn. Are you discussing morally wrong from legally wrong, JH?

[Scott Campbell]

Here's some of what is disappointing to me about that list.

1) It's published by the University of Georgia.
2) It lumps marginally disgusting behavior in with felony rape.
3) Kids probably read it and end up more screwed up than if they hadn't read it.

You're probably right. I wish they'd have distinguished between sexual violence and rape. I mean if you look at it logically, I don't think a guys going to get 10 years for being an ass to his girlfriend.

Do you think they teach this stuff in class (other than criminal law?)


I wouldn't be surprised if incoming freshman get it along with all the other "helpful" information.

[MJZiggy]

Here's some of what is disappointing to me about that list.

1) It's published by the University of Georgia.
2) It lumps marginally disgusting behavior in with felony rape.
3) Kids probably read it and end up more screwed up than if they hadn't read it.

You're probably right. I wish they'd have distinguished between sexual violence and rape. I mean if you look at it logically, I don't think a guys going to get 10 years for being an ass to his girlfriend.

Do you think they teach this stuff in class (other than criminal law?)


I wouldn't be surprised if incoming freshman get it along with all the other "helpful" information.

"Don't be a deviant and here's your credit card applications

[RashanGary]

Yeah, Tar. I call it god, but morals are what it boils down to I guess. I don't find morals to be very strong in the absence of god but morals, values, cultural expectations. . . . It all kind of winds together here.

[Bretsky]

If you don't forgive me, I will never sleep with you.

Promises, promises.


The real question Tar is wondedring is

If he does forgive you

Will you sleep with him AND another hottie gal ?

[MJZiggy]

If you don't forgive me, I will never sleep with you.

Promises, promises.


The real question Tar is wondedring is

If he does forgive you

Will you sleep with him AND another hottie gal ?

Of course not. I have a boyfriend *emphasis on boy and his wonderful he-ness. (but knowing that we've met on more than one occasion, thanks for the hottie reference...)

[Scott Campbell]

So you haven't told him your a part time lesbian yet?



When do we get to meet this new boy toy of yours?

[MJZiggy]

So you haven't told him your a part time lesbian yet?



When do we get to meet this new boy toy of yours?

If by part time lesbian, you mean 'sleeps exclusively with men,' then I think he's got that part figured out pretty well by now.

As to the second part, it'll probably be right after Skin switches to fundamental socialism and begins calling for federal takeover of mandating lawn upkeep.

[Scott Campbell]

So you haven't told him your a part time lesbian yet?



When do we get to meet this new boy toy of yours?

If by part time lesbian, you mean 'sleeps exclusively with men,' then I think he's got that part figured out pretty well by now.




"Men" is plural. :shock:

Welcome to Utah!!!!

[MJZiggy]

So you haven't told him your a part time lesbian yet?



When do we get to meet this new boy toy of yours?

If by part time lesbian, you mean 'sleeps exclusively with men,' then I think he's got that part figured out pretty well by now.




"Men" is plural. :shock:

Welcome to Utah!!!!

I thought polygamy only worked for men. If he ever reads this forum, do you realize how hard it's going to be to convince him to go to Utah? (speaking of which, the camera discussion has come up again, but I'll have to dig up the camera thread for that...)

[Scott Campbell]

So you haven't told him your a part time lesbian yet?



When do we get to meet this new boy toy of yours?

If by part time lesbian, you mean 'sleeps exclusively with men,' then I think he's got that part figured out pretty well by now.




"Men" is plural. :shock:

Welcome to Utah!!!!

I thought polygamy only worked for men.


Don't be so sexist.


I just retired my trusty S3 btw.

[MJZiggy]

I'm not retiring it, but I want to be able to blow up the prints. My S3 stays in my briefcase.

[Guiness]

'boyfriend' and 'camera' raised in the same post?

Should we be monitoring your facebook page for interesting developments?

[MJZiggy]

'boyfriend' and 'camera' raised in the same post?

Should we be monitoring your facebook page for interesting developments?

'Utah' and 'camera' go hand in hand. Those who know my facebook page can attest to its dreariness.

[Scott Campbell]

So I read a little more of the details of Ben's case. It seems that the young woman was wearing a pin that said "I Like To Fuck". Explaining that to a jury probably would present some challenges.

[Tarlam!]

You read this from a reliable source? Can you share which??

Never-the-less, unless she was wearing a badge that said ILTF Everyone, Anytime or, more specifically, QBs, I don't see that as a game breaker.

Even if she was the town bike and everyone rode her, she still said no. Even if she had 20 buttons on her saying what she liked sexually, she still said no.

To give her the benefit of the doubt, maybe some one put it on her and she was just too drunk to care.

When mini skirts first appeared they were used in rape defenses. Any woman wearing such a skimpy garment was inviting herself to be raped.

[Scott Campbell]

It was ridiculously stupid of her to wear. It also removes a lot of doubt about her level of promiscuity.

But that doesn't mean that she deserved to get raped, or that Ben deserved to get away with it. IMO.



http://www.wpxi.com/news/23170139/detail.html

"Many of the witness statements offer contradictory versions of events, but everyone seems to agree Roethlisberger's involvement with the young woman began at Velvet Elvis at about midnight when he noticed a tag the accuser wore on her dress that suggested she was willing to engage in sexual intercourse.

At one point, according to the accuser's friend Victoria Garofalo, the quarterback looked at the pin and said that he liked to "(expletive) girls." Another Steelers player, offensive lineman Willie Colon, told authorities that women were going "nutty" for the quarterback."




I read on another site that that tag said "I like to fuck". While it doesn't change my view of the matter, it might have weighed on the girl's and the DA's decision not to move forward with prosecution.

[pbmax]

It was ridiculously stupid of her to wear. It also removes a lot of doubt about her level of promiscuity.

But that doesn't mean that she deserved to get raped, or that Ben deserved to get away with it. IMO.



http://www.wpxi.com/news/23170139/detail.html

"Many of the witness statements offer contradictory versions of events, but everyone seems to agree Roethlisberger's involvement with the young woman began at Velvet Elvis at about midnight when he noticed a tag the accuser wore on her dress that suggested she was willing to engage in sexual intercourse.

At one point, according to the accuser's friend Victoria Garofalo, the quarterback looked at the pin and said that he liked to "(expletive) girls." Another Steelers player, offensive lineman Willie Colon, told authorities that women were going "nutty" for the quarterback."




I read on another site that that tag said "I like to fuck". While it doesn't change my view of the matter, it might have weighed on the girl's and the DA's decision not to move forward with prosecution.
This claim was up at PFT for a while in the comments (only it was a necklace in that version that said "Down To F**K") but when called to verify the claim, they took the comments referencing it down. There was another version of the story told that Colon said the girl told him her nickname was DTF. So I think its safe to say whatever the genesis of the info, it has morphed into a tall tale now.

[Scott Campbell]

Again, that kind of thing has to pose challenges to the prosecution.

[pbmax]

The report says:


Another sorority sister, Victoria Garofalo, recalled that the alleged victim was wearing a name tag with the initials "DTF." The tag--which the woman had received at a birthday party earlier that evening--was the subject of an inside joke between the students. When Roethlisberger asked about the initials, "Garofalo explained that 'DTF' stood for 'down to fuck' and that it referred to a joke between" the women.

"I'm not down to fuck, but I like to fuck girls," Roethlisberger replied, according to a police report.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0415101roethlisberger1.html

[Scott Campbell]

The report says:


Another sorority sister, Victoria Garofalo, recalled that the alleged victim was wearing a name tag with the initials "DTF." The tag--which the woman had received at a birthday party earlier that evening--was the subject of an inside joke between the students. When Roethlisberger asked about the initials, "Garofalo explained that 'DTF' stood for 'down to fuck' and that it referred to a joke between" the women.

"I'm not down to fuck, but I like to fuck girls," Roethlisberger replied, according to a police report.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0415101roethlisberger1.html


I did a web search on DTF to find out just how much of an "inside" joke it is.

[pbmax]

Using threats and intimidation to get sex is sexual violence.
"My partner threatened to break up with me if we didn't have sex soon, so I just went along with it even though I didn't want to."



Anyone that willingly caves into this kind of pressure has some serious issues. It does not fit what I would define as sexual violence.
Why must there be violence for there to be a crime of rape? This is an odd notion. Rape is about consent. Violence is one manner to avoid obtaining consent, but not the only method. Is a robbery committed while the home's owners are drinking not a robbery? Is it only a robbery if the thief has a gun?

There are usually differing levels of sexual assault charges. The use of violence puts you in greater degree of jeopardy than if no violence occurred. But both crimes would still be rape.

[pbmax]

The report says:


Another sorority sister, Victoria Garofalo, recalled that the alleged victim was wearing a name tag with the initials "DTF." The tag--which the woman had received at a birthday party earlier that evening--was the subject of an inside joke between the students. When Roethlisberger asked about the initials, "Garofalo explained that 'DTF' stood for 'down to fuck' and that it referred to a joke between" the women.

"I'm not down to fuck, but I like to fuck girls," Roethlisberger replied, according to a police report.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0415101roethlisberger1.html


I did a web search on DTF to find out just how much of an "inside" joke it is.
Apparently it was an inside joke to Roethlisberger.

[Scott Campbell]

Using threats and intimidation to get sex is sexual violence.
"My partner threatened to break up with me if we didn't have sex soon, so I just went along with it even though I didn't want to."



Anyone that willingly caves into this kind of pressure has some serious issues. It does not fit what I would define as sexual violence.
Why must there be violence for there to be a crime of rape? This is an odd notion. Rape is about consent.

In this case I think it depends on what specifically "just went along with it" meant. If a woman puts up less of a fight without offering consent then that is rape. If a woman or man says yes out their own fear of being broken up with, then they made that choice. If they allow themselves to be influenced by someone who says they don't intend to stay involved with somebody that won't put out, then that's on them. The man or woman using such a "threat" may be a scumbag, but I don't believe they've crossed what should be a legal threshold of sexual violence. The prudent response when someone threatens abandonment absent the consent for sex is to take them up on the offer.

If someone is threatened physically or manipulated by threats of extortion, then that is rape.

IMO

[pbmax]

This post retracted. I see the source of much of the confusion. The Guidelines list everything as Sexual Violence.

In that case, I would say that university guidelines have more to do with the safety and conduct of the students than they do with the law. The difference between what you should consider acceptable versus what you are legally required to do (or not do). I though Scott was classifying all rape as requiring violence. My bad.

[Scott Campbell]

I thought your retracted post brought up some good discussion points.

[Scott Campbell]

In that case, I would say that university guidelines have more to do with the safety and conduct of the students than they do with the law.


I think those guidelines do a real disservice to the seriousness of violent rape by lumping it in with a bunch of more marginal offenses.

[Scott Campbell]

The report says:


Another sorority sister, Victoria Garofalo, recalled that the alleged victim was wearing a name tag with the initials "DTF." The tag--which the woman had received at a birthday party earlier that evening--was the subject of an inside joke between the students. When Roethlisberger asked about the initials, "Garofalo explained that 'DTF' stood for 'down to fuck' and that it referred to a joke between" the women.

"I'm not down to fuck, but I like to fuck girls," Roethlisberger replied, according to a police report.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0415101roethlisberger1.html


I did a web search on DTF to find out just how much of an "inside" joke it is.
Apparently it was an inside joke to Roethlisberger.


I guess my point is that I don't buy the inside joke explanation. It looked like a pretty lame excuse for adorning a widely accepted acronym for "easy ho". Maybe that's the story those girls needed to feed their parents.

And I don't say that to justify what happened. It absolutely does NOT justify rape. But it couldn't have made the case any easier to prosecute.

[Tarlam!]

But it couldn't have made the case any easier to prosecute.

I see your point and while I don't want you to misunstand this as disagreeing, I would say by not putting the case in front of a jury, it's kinda mandating that girls conduct themselves in a certain manner to enjoy the full protection of the law.

If I am the DA, I take into account the contuct of all involve prior, during and post-incident. She had me on her side when it was disclosed she sought out the first police car she could find.

Woman accustomed to frequent sex with men they get to know in bars probably aren't prone to reacting that way.

[Freak Out]

So when does the commissar drop the suspension hammer on the fucker?

How many games will we see Charlie Batch starting? :lol:

Wait...is he even in the League?

[Joemailman]

It won't be before the draft.

[Scott Campbell]

It won't be before the draft.


Florio thinks it will be tomorrow.

[MJZiggy]

Goodell refused to say. Apparently he has no set timeline and can drop the boom whenever he feels like it, but the Steelers thought it would be next week.

Not to be political but to show how far some of these lines of thinking can go, a cleric in Iran predicted that a major earthquake was going to hit Tehran because the women were dressing too immodestly and that's what causes earthquakes because they rile all the men up and cause infidelity. Nice that the guys have no personal responsibility. The women cause the infidelity because their headscarves are revealing too much hair and they're not wearing their burkas.

By the way, the DTF tags are kind of a novelty gag popular with the kids these days. I see them in stores.

[Scott Campbell]

Goodell refused to say. Apparently he has no set timeline and can drop the boom whenever he feels like it, but the Steelers thought it would be next week.

Not to be political but to show how far some of these lines of thinking can go, a cleric in Iran predicted that a major earthquake was going to hit Tehran because the women were dressing too immodestly and that's what causes earthquakes because they rile all the men up and cause infidelity. Nice that the guys have no personal responsibility. The women cause the infidelity because their headscarves are revealing too much hair and they're not wearing their burkas.

By the way, the DTF tags are kind of a novelty gag popular with the kids these days. I see them in stores.


If I catch one of my daughters wearing one, they'll be Dead Till Further notice.

[RashanGary]

I'm not so certain Ben raped this girl.


I'd say she went in there feelin sexy, being sexy. She even wore the, "down to fuck" pin and everything. She got brought into the VIP section with Ben. Going out with the "down to fuck" pin, looking hot. . . I think it's safe to say she liked the attention. She probably liked it even more from such a famous, rich guy like Ben. . .

I think there's a good chance Ben doesn't really understand these girls very well. He's taking the, "down to fuck" thing literally. It's a bit of a joke. . . There is that little game, of teetering on safe fun that we play with sex. It's fun to grind against a really awesome football player and know that he's really into you and feel really hot and sexy about it and have the whole, "down to fuck" tag and everything. It's not nearly as fun when he takes you up on it and it goes from, "teetering, safe fun to, oh shit, we're alone and he wants to do what I've been leading him on to do all night".

I can picture a rape happening here, but I can also picture her leading him on. Him taking her up on it. Her feeling obligated, but half heartedly resisting. Him being persuasive. Her going along because she felt obligated and then when he just ditched her ass in a bathroom feeling disgusting, she felt raped. I don't know exactly what happened here, it could have gone either way, but depending on what evidence you give most credit to, there are a few scenerios that could have happened here and none more likely than the other.

I think Ben is a creep. I don't know, based on this story, that he's a rapist, although it's very possible. I'm just not going to judge him that way because if I was in his shoes and I didn't do it, it sure wouldn't be fair. I'd be OK with any suspension, even up to life, for the things he's been involved in. I woudln't be OK with prison, jail or any crime based on just this.

[MJZiggy]

I'm not so certain Ben raped this girl.


I'd say she went in there feelin sexy, being sexy. She even wore the, "down to fuck" pin and everything. She got brought into the VIP section with Ben. Going out with the "down to fuck" pin, looking hot. . . I think it's safe to say she liked the attention. She probably liked it even more from such a famous, rich guy like Ben. . .

I think there's a good chance Ben doesn't really understand these girls very well. He's taking the, "down to fuck" thing literally. It's a bit of a joke. . . There is that little game, of teetering on safe fun that we play with sex. It's fun to grind against a really awesome football player and know that he's really into you and feel really hot and sexy about it and have the whole, "down to fuck" tag and everything. It's not nearly as fun when he takes you up on it and it goes from, "teetering, safe fun to, oh shit, we're alone and he wants to do what I've been leading him on to do all night".

I can picture a rape happening here, but I can also picture her leading him on. Him taking her up on it. Her feeling obligated, but half heartedly resisting. Him being persuasive. Her going along because she felt obligated and then when he just ditched her ass in a bathroom feeling disgusting, she felt raped. I don't know exactly what happened here, it could have gone either way, but depending on what evidence you give most credit to, there are a few scenerios that could have happened here and none more likely than the other.

I think Ben is a creep. I don't know, based on this story, that he's a rapist, although it's very possible. I'm just not going to judge him that way because if I was in his shoes and I didn't do it, it sure wouldn't be fair. I'd be OK with any suspension, even up to life, for the things he's been involved in. I woudln't be OK with prison, jail or any crime based on just this.

Three words killed your post. "half heartedly resisting" End of story right there. The scenario you just laid out is by law rape.

[Scott Campbell]

Three words killed your post. "half heartedly resisting" End of story right there. The scenario you just laid out is by law rape.


Agreed.

I can understand how some might feel that it's a gray area, but it's not. It's black and white.

[MichiganPackerFan]

If there is no suspension, or legal charges, I say once every few downs, his OL simply steps aside and lets an opposing DL or LB tee off on him.

[Tarlam!]

Well, I like:

that the media keeps rubbing his nose in it by continuing the topic.
that Goodell is using salami tactics in dealing with it, which keeps him guessing ie. in his conciousness.
that his teamates are reportedly pissed at him for bringing the distractions to their ball club, yet again.
that the Rooneys are livid and he must be feeling insecure about his mid term future.
that his stock is way down with all 32 teams and if he is allowed to remain in the NFL that next blockbuster deal won't be a blockbuster deal at all.
that he's clinically dead for any corporations that once used him as a media representative, which must cost him millions.
that the fans are reportedly upset and he probably doesn't get to go out in public there much these days.

I don't like that he'll never face 12 peers in a trial and the consequences of his actions for the victim.

[RashanGary]

Well, this girl has changed her stories. Pressure and rape are two different things.

A guy saying he'll break up if he doesn't get sex is pressure.

Threatening to harm one's child, job, financial situation would be rape to me.




Saying, "It's OK" and going forward, after being lead on all night. . . He obviously lacks respect for her and seemingly all women, but if she's like, "OK, have sex with me" after that, I don't know, that's not rape to me.

She got taken advantage of, treated worse than any person should allow another person to treat them, but the fact remains, there's a good chance she allowed that, even if she regretted it, even if she had to be puressured into it.

I understand the, "no means no" thing, but this is a shade of gray, he said, she said. . . And just reading through the story, I'd tend to lean toward what he said although even at best, he's still a piece of shit, just not a violent sex criminal.

It's goign to be popular to side against the evil man and for the girl becuase so many have had horrific rape and it's easier to empathize, but I'm not so sure it's all sowed up here. The courts didn't think so and whether she presses charges or not, the court absolutely will if they have enough evidence to. That is completely beside the point here.

[RashanGary]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?id=5118128


This is a well written piece that doesn't assume guilt or innocence, but touches on worst case and best case (which is still really bad) for Ben.

[Tarlam!]

I understand the, "no means no" thing, but this is a shade of gray, he said, she said. . . And just reading through the story, I'd tend to lean toward what he said although even at best, he's still a piece of shit, just not a violent sex criminal.

It's goign to be popular to side against the evil man and for the girl becuase so many have had horrific rape and it's easier to empathize, but I'm not so sure it's all sowed up here. The courts didn't think so and whether she presses charges or not, the court absolutely will if they have enough evidence to. That is completely beside the point here.

JH, have you been partaking in less coffee than nrormal? Your last paragraph is somewhat incoherent,

You do know that in pre historic times, it wasn't considered violant to club a female and drag her by her hair to a place "fit" for intercourse, if anthropoligists are to be believed.

In modern times, lawmakers have prudently seen the error of the ways of some religous teachings and sectarian practices to equalize consenting partners within and without wedlock.

Lawmakers have a very clear definition of rape, of which, violence no longer a mandatory parameter.

Consent is the only parameter. Consent by adults in full control of their wits and senses.

Secondly, the courts haven't decided anything. The case never saw the inside of a court.

[RashanGary]

Well, in absense of further verbal or physical communication, spreading ones legs and taking it after being told, "it's OK", should not be considered rape.

There is more than just verbal communication. If Ben said it was OK, and she let herself to him without any further rebuttle, it can be understandably received, as, "yes, it is OK", especially when all signs, all night pointed to that. I mean, she was, "down to fuck", right?

I can, and have, had several rounds of consentual sex where no verbal agreement of the contrary was ever made. I've had a "no I"m not interested" turn into girl on top, obvioulsy consent sex with no further verbal agreement after. Let's not convict every wealthy man who's ever been told no at first of rape, if the girl eventually chooses to have sex after the no. It's happened. It happens and if the guy leaves her in a bathroom like trash, and she feels disgusting, it's not grounds to imprison the man who she agreed, physically, to have sex with.

Nobody wants to hear it, but there is a very good chance this girl put herself in a situation and didn't do the right things to communicate her wishes. Instead, let Ben have sex with her, felt nasty when he got up and left her in a bathroom and then felt and claimed rape. It's possible.

[RashanGary]

Still makes ben a slime ball and worse than many criminals but crime and right and wrong are very different thigns. I'm not convinced Ben committed a crime, although I am convinced he committed a wrong (in my view of what is right and wrong).

[MJZiggy]

Well, in absense of further verbal or physical communication, spreading ones legs and taking it after being told, "it's OK", should not be considered rape.

There is more than just verbal communication. If Ben said it was OK, and she let herself to him without any further rebuttle, it can be understandably received, as, "yes, it is OK", especially when all signs, all night pointed to that. I mean, she was, "down to fuck", right?

I can, and have, had several rounds of consentual sex where no verbal agreement of the contrary was ever made. I've had a "no I"m not interested" turn into girl on top, obvioulsy consent sex with no further verbal agreement after. Let's not convict every wealthy man who's ever been told no at first of rape, if the girl eventually chooses to have sex after the no. It's happened. It happens and if the guy leaves her in a bathroom like trash, and she feels disgusting, it's not grounds to imprison the man who she agreed, physically, to have sex with.

Nobody wants to hear it, but there is a very good chance this girl put herself in a situation and didn't do the right things to communicate her wishes. Instead, let Ben have sex with her, felt nasty when he got up and left her in a bathroom and then felt and claimed rape. It's possible.

In every account of this story, she said no. She did not give consent. How do you figure that she gave consensual sex and just felt bad after when according to the police report, he just told her it was ok and did what he wanted in the bathroom? I don't care what it said on her nametag, she has a right to decide who she's actually down to fuck with. Him being rich and famous does not give him the right to decide for her. She can give all the signals she wants, yet there is NO indication from any account here that it wasn't rape. It's not like this was a romantic interlude between two people who were acquainted in a sweet little hotel room somewhere. He put a guard at the door (you need a guard for consensual sex?) told her it's ok and took what he wanted. There is no way you can spin this where it isn't rape. I just doesn't work. You may think you know how women think, but if you're feeling shitty about having slept with someone, you don't go running to announce it publicly (in this case excruciatingly publicly). You shut up and pray you didn't catch anything or get pregnant. Your theory just doesn't work.

And by the way, if a girl told you no and you didn't take no for an answer, consider yourself VERY lucky, son. I've had a man nearly wound himself backing off when he THOUGHT I MIGHT have told him to stop. There's no way I could ever have accused him of anything-not even close. It also made me respect that guy a whole lot.

[RashanGary]

Ziggy, jeeze. I'd never do anything like that.

I'm simply saying there are more ways to communicate than just verbal and going along with sex is the same as consenting. Shit, people who can't even speak the same language have sex from time to time.

After reading all of this, I don't think her communication was consistent, or clear enough to be understood.

[Tarlam!]

JH, what part of "having sex with a women that is in no control of her emotional state due to substance abuse consitutes rape" is so difficult for you to understand?

You can argue that you think the law sucks and that life is different in reality and all that. And we'd have a better discussion.

But your comments about "opening her legs and going along with it" or "a no doesen't mean a no" are still about a 20 year old women that was totally incable of making a coherent decision, as is proven by her reaction after the fact.

You argue, she felt cheap, because Ben just zipped up his fly and left her there. That's why she went to the cops.

The only reason I can think of for your posturing over this is that you have also had sex in similar situations. You knew it was wrong. You knew you were taking advantage. You now have discovered what the law and society at large thinks about it. And you are either extremely ashamed and plagued by guilt or still in denial that you raped someone yourself and desperately trying to justify your actions.
Y'know, if that were reality, JH, she would have dropped the charges when she sobered up. Any normal person would. Instead, she made coherent statements to reinforce her side of the events.

Thus, in the eyes of the law, SHE WAS RAPED.

[Little Whiskey]

has Ben made any statments about this yet? police report? seems to me there has only been one side to this story.

[Tarlam!]

has Ben made any statments about this yet? police report? seems to me there has only been one side to this story.

The bulk of the thread got dumped into the GC, Whiskey. There are links to the police report etc.

[Bretsky]

has Ben made any statments about this yet? police report? seems to me there has only been one side to this story.



You'll get no specifics at all from Ben; it's what a lawyer will advise. If he says something to make himself look good and it turns out not to be true...........

[RashanGary]

No, Tar, I've never done anything like that. But agreeing to have sex and being raped are two different things. Guys can lie, sweet talk and pressure a girl to have sex the same way a girl can lie, seduce and dirty talk a married guy to have sex.

If the person ends up going along, even after initial objection, it's all that person fault. Married guy, buzzed girl. Don't put yourself in bad spots and it won't happen.

[Guiness]

I don't think JH is posturing Tar, and I don't think it's right for you to throw that out there. This has been a pretty good discussion without personal barbs being thrown around, and with some related personal experiences thrown in. There was no need for accusations in this thread

I still agree with your position JH.

The statement "having sex with a women that is in no control of her emotional state due to substance abuse constitutes rape" bothers me - too close to the 'too drunk to know better' defense that was popular for some crimes a while back. If the statement you made is admissible, the converse of it would set the prosecution of rape back quite a bit.

You also say any normal person would have dropped the charges when she sobered up - who's to say she's a normal person? I know we're not putting her on trial, but we have to admit we know absolutely nothing about her.

[Tarlam!]

Thanks for the heads up Guiness, but to be honest, JH talked about personal experiences before I made my remarks. I will try not to cross the line in future.

I think we know a lot about the incident based on the DA's reaction. The fact that the first Policeman to investigate has since resigned.

The simple fact that the Rooneys are looking to ship him out, or the fact that he faces severe NFL suspension from 2-6 weeks, also tells us a great deal.

[Guiness]

Thanks for seeing that Tarlam. JH has shared some insights that are relevant on the topic.

I think I've read most of the stuff on this (at least everything posted here) but not sure what you are referring to by the DA's reaction? Did he make a statement or something?

There's another thread about the suspension that I posted in. Somewhat like JH, I think BR is a slime, and has done some awful things. But I also think punishing him for allegations is a very dangerous path.

OTOH maybe my one of my own experiences are colouring things. During my divorce proceedings, my STBX (soon to be ex) filed assault charges on me. I was picking some stuff up from the house, and the dog jumped on me. I was not in the mood, and shoved the dog away. She came running across the yard screaming at me, and grabbed me by the neck. I told her to fuck off, and shoved her. She did the full ten point dive into the garden, and had 911 dialed before she hit the ground. Came up bruised and dirty. As an aside, this woman bruises very easily, I can honestly say I never saw her without several bruises on her body. I, on the other hand, don't bruise at all, so I had no marks.

Cops show up, and I spend 6-8h in a cell.

[Tarlam!]

I think I've read most of the stuff on this (at least everything posted here) but not sure what you are referring to by the DA's reaction? Did he make a statement or something?


Indeed he did. The DA chastized Ben very publicly. Joe dumped the first thread into the GC. There are links in there that you can find to help get an understanding of where I'm coming from.

For me it comes down to this: What if he did this to my 17 year old daughter. She, like the girl in the article is one year off of the legal drinking age and already frequents bars and clubs.

She is at a boarding school so I have no control over it, no matter how well meaning I might be.

BTW, I can FULLY relate to your experience, but that's not for the forum.

[MJZiggy]

JH, if she was just leading him on and went along with it, how did she end up in the bathroom? And why did someone "put" her on the stool in the first place?

[Freak Out]

Why is the first thread in the GC, locked and with all the good shit still deleted?

[Scott Campbell]

Consent is the only parameter. Consent by adults in full control of their wits and senses.


They need to apply that one to marriage vows.

[MJZiggy]

Consent is the only parameter. Consent by adults in full control of their wits and senses.


They need to apply that one to marriage vows.

I thought they did. You've got 3 days to get out of it. If you're drunk that long, you have more than a marriage that needs your attention.

[CaptainKickass]

this woman bruises very easily, I can honestly say I never saw her without several bruises on her body.

Q: What do ya tell a woman with two black eyes?

A: Nothing...You already told her twice!

:twisted:

(And before anyone gets proverbial sand in their vagina's - this is just an old JOKE. Lighten the hell up people!)

[MJZiggy]

this woman bruises very easily, I can honestly say I never saw her without several bruises on her body.

Q: What do ya tell a woman with two black eyes?

A: Nothing...You already told her twice!

:twisted:

(And before anyone gets proverbial sand in their vagina's - this is just an old JOKE. Lighten the hell up people!)

You don't have to tell her anything as you're still recovering from the frying pan to the back of the head...

[Tarlam!]

this woman bruises very easily, I can honestly say I never saw her without several bruises on her body.

Q: What do ya tell a woman with two black eyes?

A: Nothing...You already told her twice!

:twisted:

(And before anyone gets proverbial sand in their vagina's - this is just an old JOKE. Lighten the hell up people!)

You don't have to tell her anything as you're still recovering from the frying pan to the back of the head...

I thought it was funny.

[Deputy Nutz]

No, Tar, I've never done anything like that. But agreeing to have sex and being raped are two different things. Guys can lie, sweet talk and pressure a girl to have sex the same way a girl can lie, seduce and dirty talk a married guy to have sex.

If the person ends up going along, even after initial objection, it's all that person fault. Married guy, buzzed girl. Don't put yourself in bad spots and it won't happen.

Huh?

she was twenty, drinking and being served illegally. I wasn't in the bathroom with Ben and this girl, so I can't tell you what happened. I can tell you what could have happened. She could have really felt wonderful that a professional QB, a famous athlete was interested in her. You can probably agree that it was a boost to her ego. Maybe she went with Ben because she did want to fool around, get his number, start a wonderful relationship with a famous QB, I don't think she thought it was too bad of a situation.

She most likely didn't want to have sex in a bathroom with him, since she did go to the cops. She could have had sex with him and then felt really bad about it afterwards and decided to fuck him over. Or Ben could have pinned her up against a urinal and penatrated her vagina with his penis as she scream "NO", he then could have covered her mouth with his hand.

Who knows about that. Regardless she was 20 and drunk and Ben should have used better judgement in the situation based on his status as the all-pro quarterback. His judgement is at the very least baffling. Her judgement in this situation is pretty understandable.

[Deputy Nutz]

Thanks for seeing that Tarlam. JH has shared some insights that are relevant on the topic.

I think I've read most of the stuff on this (at least everything posted here) but not sure what you are referring to by the DA's reaction? Did he make a statement or something?

There's another thread about the suspension that I posted in. Somewhat like JH, I think BR is a slime, and has done some awful things. But I also think punishing him for allegations is a very dangerous path.

OTOH maybe my one of my own experiences are colouring things. During my divorce proceedings, my STBX (soon to be ex) filed assault charges on me. I was picking some stuff up from the house, and the dog jumped on me. I was not in the mood, and shoved the dog away. She came running across the yard screaming at me, and grabbed me by the neck. I told her to fuck off, and shoved her. She did the full ten point dive into the garden, and had 911 dialed before she hit the ground. Came up bruised and dirty. As an aside, this woman bruises very easily, I can honestly say I never saw her without several bruises on her body. I, on the other hand, don't bruise at all, so I had no marks.

Cops show up, and I spend 6-8h in a cell.

Well I think it was proper to suspend him. Two off-season and two rape allegations, looks bad not only on Rothisberger, but also the Steelers and the league. Ben keeps putting himself in situations that are a effecting his job status.

[SkinBasket]

Maybe she should have played some iron curtain defense.

[CaptainKickass]

Maybe she should have played some iron curtain defense.


http://gamesnet.vo.llnwd.net/o1/gamestar/objects/190708_main.jpg

[CaptainKickass]

this woman bruises very easily, I can honestly say I never saw her without several bruises on her body.

Q: What do ya tell a woman with two black eyes?

A: Nothing...You already told her twice!

:twisted:

(And before anyone gets proverbial sand in their vagina's - this is just an old JOKE. Lighten the hell up people!)

You don't have to tell her anything as you're still recovering from the frying pan to the back of the head...

I can handle the el cheapo frying pans - all the way up to the super-mega-ultra teflon/non-stick ones.

It's the damn cast iron that gets me. That shit'll kill a guy.

[Joemailman]

Maybe she should have played some iron curtain defense.


http://gamesnet.vo.llnwd.net/o1/gamestar/objects/190708_main.jpg

I don't know. Ben's always been pretty good at moving the chains.

[Freak Out]

Maybe she should have played some iron curtain defense.


http://gamesnet.vo.llnwd.net/o1/gamestar/objects/190708_main.jpg

I don't know. Ben's always been pretty good at moving the chains.

:five:

[Harlan Huckleby]

I don't know. Ben's always been pretty good at moving the chains. an early winner in the caption contest

[MJZiggy]

this woman bruises very easily, I can honestly say I never saw her without several bruises on her body.

Q: What do ya tell a woman with two black eyes?

A: Nothing...You already told her twice!

:twisted:

(And before anyone gets proverbial sand in their vagina's - this is just an old JOKE. Lighten the hell up people!)

You don't have to tell her anything as you're still recovering from the frying pan to the back of the head...

I can handle the el cheapo frying pans - all the way up to the super-mega-ultra teflon/non-stick ones.

It's the damn cast iron that gets me. That shit'll kill a guy. :lol: :lol: