OFFENSIVE TACKLES-----PAST AND PRESENT

[Bretsky]

Often I listed to Sirius NFL Network and I'm curious how the rats would break this down ? Best 3 OT's over the past ten years and who the future stars at OT will be ?????

My gut would have said Ogden without hesitation. NFL was discussing with scouts and GM's and it appears three stick out as being better than the rest. Orlando Pace, Jonathon Ogden, and........silently, Walter Jones, who just retired.

Going a step further, most would categorize Orlando Pace as being clearly the 3rd best of those three, and they are split as to whether Ogden or Jones is #1.

Silently, Walter Jones retired from the NFL Last Week, which spurred the discussion.

Then they went on to note players who they think might lead the next group.

DeBrickshaw Ferguson has wonderful reviews up to this point. They noted how his arms are so long it's an extreme rarity that a DL even gets to his full second step before Ferguson is putting that intial hit on him with his long arms.

In their view, Ferguson was destined for greatness. They also really liked Okung, the new Seahawks OT. They noted how Williams from the Redskins was more of a finesse player that may have fit the Redskins scheme the best, but is not nearly the player of Okung.

They brought Buluga into the conversation. Surprisingly, a lot of scouts, they noted, did not think BB is athletic enough to be a great Left Tackle. Many list him as a solid future RT. They noted how he found his best fit in Green Bay and all Packer fans should be happy to have him coming.

But then they gave me a sobering note.....he is what he is...a 23rd pick...and there was a reason he lasted that long.

Time will tell..........but regardless it was a very interesting to hear all of this.

So I ask the Rats

Rate your top 3 for the past 10 years
and
Who will the future great ones be ??

[HarveyWallbangers]

The three you mentioned were all great at some point. How can you pick between them. They were different types of players in different types of offenses. If I had to choose who was the best when they were at their best, I would choose Pace. Ogden played better longer.

You can find many scouts that tore down Okung too, so it really doesn't matter at this point. Scouts are easy to tear down players at this time of year--especially those not drafted by their teams.

Ferguson has been up and down. He had a decent first year. He was considered a bit of a disappointment in his second year. He reached some of his potential last year.

[RashanGary]

I like Bulaga. Joemailman had a really good post on him a week or so ago.

You watch him in the drills, where guys aren't really playing football. . . Bulaga isn't as athletic as Davis, Williams or Okung. . . He's not far off, but just not an elite athlete like the other guys.

But then you flip on Bulaga's end of the season game tape. His feet are very quick and when he's sliding and punching, he's very effective. He's known for his consistency. I don't picture him being horrible and whatever he is, I picture him being pretty consistent at it. Maybe you don't love him at LT, but I think he's good enough to hold you for a year or two until you find a better LT. Comparing him to other players on our team at their positions. . . I think his floor is something similar to how Spitz plays at LG (you'd like to replace him, but can live with him) to a solid chance at being like Tauscher at RT (a really good player you can count on for a long time) to his ceiling being Clifton (a borderline probowler for many years). I'm just talking about how he plays LT, but compared him to how other guys have held down other positions.


I feel comfortable that our LT won't be a disaster and am hopeful that it will be pretty good. That's how I view Bulaga and knowing what a disaster it would have been if we didn't have him, I feel really good about the pick. The line, especially LT, is just that important.

[Pugger]

Its easy to say Pace and others were good LTs. We have their entire body of work to determine that. But I think it is a tad unfair to say how good or bad Bulaga will be before he takes his first snap in an NFL game. :roll:

[Bretsky]

Its easy to say Pace and others were good LTs. We have their entire body of work to determine that. But I think it is a tad unfair to say how good or bad Bulaga will be before he takes his first snap in an NFL game. :roll:


Those were NFL guys saying that

The entire forum is based on opinions of things that have not occured and projections for the future.

If we don't rap on stuff like this what in the heck are we suppose to talk about in the offseason :?: :?: :?: :?:

[bobblehead]

They brought Buluga into the conversation. Surprisingly, a lot of scouts, they noted, did not think BB is athletic enough to be a great Left Tackle. Many list him as a solid future RT. They noted how he found his best fit in Green Bay and all Packer fans should be happy to have him coming.

But then they gave me a sobering note.....he is what he is...a 23rd pick...and there was a reason he lasted that long.

Time will tell..........but regardless it was a very interesting to hear all of this.



Mark Tauscher is merely an unathletic 7th round pick. Bulaga will likely never be a second level blocker due to his limitations....name me 5 LT's in the NFL who are. You simply don't ask it of the position. I'll take a good fundamental dude who plants his fat ass between Jared Allen and ARod giving 4 seconds to get rid of the ball or roll right. OL are often the hardest to gauge coming out of college, and Bulaga has some important factors in his favor....school history, production on the field.

I doubt he will be Clifton in pass pro, but I'll bet anything he won't be clifton in the run game either.

[Pugger]

Its easy to say Pace and others were good LTs. We have their entire body of work to determine that. But I think it is a tad unfair to say how good or bad Bulaga will be before he takes his first snap in an NFL game. :roll:


Those were NFL guys saying that

The entire forum is based on opinions of things that have not occured and projections for the future.

If we don't rap on stuff like this what in the heck are we suppose to talk about in the offseason :?: :?: :?: :?:

I know but it is still silly to say a guy is gonna stink before he even plays. Let's talk about his strengths and weaknesses and all hope he pans out.

[Bretsky]

Its easy to say Pace and others were good LTs. We have their entire body of work to determine that. But I think it is a tad unfair to say how good or bad Bulaga will be before he takes his first snap in an NFL game. :roll:


Those were NFL guys saying that

The entire forum is based on opinions of things that have not occured and projections for the future.

If we don't rap on stuff like this what in the heck are we suppose to talk about in the offseason :?: :?: :?: :?:

I know but it is still silly to say a guy is gonna stink before he even plays. Let's talk about his strengths and weaknesses and all hope he pans out.


Nobody said he's going to stink; that was how you read it. Several said they project him to be a future RT instead of a LT due to athleticism and arm length (which is a load of bunk IMO) . Nobody said he's going to be a bad player and I think everybody in here is glad he was picked by GB.

We've been through the guys perceived strengths and weaknesses....but those opinions and how they project into the Pro Game is no more valuable than what the NFL Personell guys were projecting.

[RashanGary]

Yep, this isn't a journal of what has happened. This is a Packer forum where we talk mostly about what is happening and how it relates to our chances at a championship.

Talking about what kind of player Bulaga is, is a part of that.


My best guess of how Buluga will play LT in the NFL is this:


Somewhere between a guy you want to replace but can live with (similar to how Spitz plays LG) and quality player you depend on for a decade (similar to how tauscher plays RT).

The way it was looking, with not having an LT on the roster after Clifton, we were in for disaster. Now we should range somewhere between alright and really good at the position. To me, I know it's not sexy, but that's a big deal.

[Tarlam!]

Somewhere between a guy you want to replace but can live with (similar to how Spitz plays LG) and quality player you depend on for a decade (similar to how tauscher plays RT).

The way it was looking, with not having an LT on the roster after Clifton, we were in for disaster. Now we should range somewhere between alright and really good at the position. To me, I know it's not sexy, but that's a big deal.

Well, my guess is that TT disagrees with you completely. I certainly do. There were some real defensive gems available at #23. There were enough guys available in the 2nd that would do "adequately" (if I may paraphrase) for a year or two until their "real" LT is drafted in '11 or '12.

I think it will do wonders that Cliffy will be there for a while yet to let him ease into the role - a lot like A-Rod's pine ride actually helped him. But I think it's a farce to claim the team drafted a guy they want to replace.

[Sparkey]

By Tom Silverstein, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel

Apr. 30--GREEN BAY -- Offensive lineman Bryan Bulaga will line up for the first time as a Green Bay Packer Friday afternoon, but it won't be the first-round draft choice's first taste of how the NFL game is played.

In his preparation for the scouting combine, Bulaga spent five weeks at Athletes' Performance in Phoenix, working one-on-one with former Packers offensive line coach Tom Lovat.

One of Mike Holmgren's most trusted assistants in Green Bay and Seattle and the father of Packers strength and conditioning coach Mark Lovat, Tom Lovat spent four hours a day watching film with Bulaga and helping him translate what he learned in the classroom onto the field.

"(He's) a former offensive line coach who has coached a lot of good players," Bulaga said during an introductory news conference Thursday afternoon in the team's media auditorium. "That's who I was working with one-on-one out there was him, and I felt he did a really good job with me and I learned a lot from him."

Lovat, who lives in the Fox Valley, trains offensive line clients for agent Tom Condon at the AP site in Arizona. Two years ago, he worked with No. 1 pick Jake Long of the Miami Dolphins and last year worked with St. Louis' No. 1 pick Jason Smith.

His impression of Bulaga is that the Packers got themselves a smart, blue-collar athlete who knows how to play the game. Lovat said he told his son and offensive line coach James Campen that Bulaga is a guy they should look at closely but shouldn't expect to land with the No. 23 pick.

"I really thought he'd be gone in the first five or six picks," Lovat said. "I thought Kansas City would take him. He's not as athletic as Jason Smith, but he played basketball in high school and he played baseball. He has skill. He's strong and he's going to work hard. When he gets it in his mind to do something, he does it."

Among the questions Bulaga addressed Thursday, on the eve of the Packers' rookie orientation camp, was the doubt some scouts have about him playing left tackle because his arms are less than 33 inches long. Bulaga chuckled about those questions and said if he had been asked about his arms in interviews at the combine, he would have been honest and told people they weren't going to get any longer.

"I've never been in a situation in a football game where I have thought to myself after a play, 'Gosh, I wish my arms were longer,' " Bulaga said. "I've never been in that situation, nor have I been in a situation where I was run-blocking a guy and my hands were too small to fit around his chest plate."

Scouts do tend to get caught up in numbers, but there are reasons they like left tackles with longer arms and big hands.

The longer a lineman's arms are, the harder it is for a pass rusher to grab his jersey and use it for leverage. Long arms also allow a tackle who gets beat around the corner to reach out and push the pass rusher past the quarterback.

In Seattle, Lovat had the fortune of coaching Walter Jones, one of the best left tackles of all time and an exceptional physical model, but he also coaxed good seasons out of Ken Ruettgers, Bruce Wilkerson and Ross Verba, none of whom were classic left tackle specimens.

"I don't think it matters one bit," Lovat said of short arms. "(I coached) Dan Dierdorf. He had short arms and he had to block (Ed) "Too Tall" Jones every year. Jake Long's arms aren't that much longer (than Bulaga's).

"It's all about instincts, getting yourself in position. I guess if you were getting beat around the corner every time, you'd have to have long arms. If you know a guy is quicker than you, then it's about being in good position."

Asked to compare Bulaga to someone he coached in Green Bay, Lovat said the closest would be Adam Timmerman, a starter at right guard from 1996-'98 who went on to become a Pro Bowl player in St. Louis.

"He has a work ethic like Adam," Lovat said.

Bulaga said he knows he'll start out behind veteran Chad Clifton and that he is not guaranteed playing time this season. But he also came out of Iowa a year early because he felt he was ready to play in the NFL and wanted the chance to prove it to somebody.

The clock starts on his career this weekend along with the rest of the Packers' rookies.

"I want to play football," Bulaga said. "But if the case is that I'm not playing, then I didn't earn it and the coaches thought I wasn't ready, and that's just the bottom line. I'm going to determine if I'm on the field or not. It's as simple as that."

Studying Pacman: According to free agent cornerback Adam "Pacman" Jones, the Packers were one of four teams who contacted him.

Jones told Sporting News Radio that none of the teams has made a move toward inviting him for a tryout or signing him to a contract. The Packers usually do research on any available player and may be updating their reports on him.

They did the same thing last year with Michael Vick.

In attendance: Punters Chris Bryan and Tim Masthay are among the 11 non-rookies who are allowed to take part in the camp because they don't have a year of experience in the NFL yet.

It's questionable whether coach Mike McCarthy will run special teams drills during the one practice open to reporters on Friday, but it will be the first time both will be on display in any form. Neither has punted in an NFL game.

[Tarlam!]

Thanks for posting Sparkey.

Sounds like we need to immediately look for Bulaga's replacement

[Lurker64]

Sounds like we need to immediately look for Bulaga's replacement

We're always looking for opportunities to improve our roster.

[TennesseePackerBacker]

Ok, I agree with the some of the D'Brickashaw love, but destined for greatness? Come on man. I would rather have Joe Thomas and Jake Long over Ferguson. Oher also looks like he could be a future 10 year anchor. I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[Guiness]

I know but it is still silly to say a guy is gonna stink before he even plays. Let's talk about his strengths and weaknesses and all hope he pans out.

Ok extoll his virtues before he laces them up (Okung)

[RashanGary]

I'm just saying. . . As far as LT goes, not every scout or GM is convinced he's a LT. Bill Polian, SB winning GM and one of the most respected front office men in pro football, thinks Bulaga is not a LT. I apologize to anyone here if this is offensive, but I think Polian knows more than Tarlam of packerrats.


Going off what several scouts and front office personnel have said about Bulaga, I think there's a chance that at LT, he's not the great player we're hoping for. Most everyone thinks he'll be a hell of a right tackle.

So if he doesn't work out at LT, I don't mind. We can play him on the right side in the future. If he turns out being just so/so at LT, and holds us over until we can find something better and move him to the right, that will be OK too. As long as Rodgers never has to drop back and have a piece of crap at LT, we'll be OK. I'm pretty sure he's not a piece of crap, so right away I'm happy. I think he'll be a really good pro, just not sure if it will be all at LT. I hope it is, but I'm not sure.

[Tarlam!]

I apologize to anyone here if this is offensive, but I think Polian knows more than Tarlam of packerrats.

Harrell, if you didn't mean to offend me, you wouldn't have phrased your sentence the way you did, so the prelude is just a further attempt at insulting my intelligence.

Unlike some posters here, I don't profess to know anything. I observe what's in the press and what teams do and make assumptions and comments thereupon.

I think this is a preposterous statement of yours based on my observations:


Maybe you don't love him at LT, but I think he's good enough to hold you for a year or two until you find a better LT.

This is precisely why Chad Clifton was re-signed, which you conveniently fail to reflect upon when sharing your immense scouting ability with us.

Now, maybe Polian is correct and TT got himself a RT. But I'm pretty certain he planned on drafting a LT, which, if you had actually read my post, is what my opinion is about. My assumption is that if TT didn't feel he'd score a long term LT solution with Bulaga, then he'd have drafted differently. You'll find just as many scouts that love Bulaga and a bunch of conflicting reports on his level of athleticism. Obviously TT and Polian graded Bulaga differently.

Incidentally, The Raiders took an Iowa Left Tackle 2nd overall in 2004. They then played him with mild success for a year at RT, before trying to switch him back to LT. Today he's playing LG. I don't assume the Packers will screw up Bulaga's head the way the Raiders did with Robert Gallery.

My final point on this is that Cliffy only made one Pro Bowl, and that was as a replacement in 2008. Yet he's been a damned solid LT over the years and if Bulaga can learn behind him for at least half the season (Cliffy didn't start until midway through his rookie season) I believe he will benefit greatly and be better prepared for the task.

[Fritz]

As far as future studs, I'd say Thomas is first, followed by Long.Thomas was that rare guy that came in and played well from the get-go.

Those two look like the next generation of stars.

Funny how before the draft most mocks had Bulaga going between 12 - 18. When I fell to the Pack I was overjoyed. Now lots of folks are saying, "ah, he's okay."

I'm happy with that pick. I hope Cliffy stays healthy and this guy can watch and learn. And I trust Ted more than I trust unnamed scouts.

[retailguy]

I'm just saying. . . As far as LT goes, not every scout or GM is convinced he's a LT. Bill Polian, SB winning GM and one of the most respected front office men in pro football, thinks Bulaga is not a LT. I apologize to anyone here if this is offensive, but I think Polian knows more than Tarlam of packerrats.


Going off what several scouts and front office personnel have said about Bulaga, I think there's a chance that at LT, he's not the great player we're hoping for. Most everyone thinks he'll be a hell of a right tackle.

So if he doesn't work out at LT, I don't mind. We can play him on the right side in the future. If he turns out being just so/so at LT, and holds us over until we can find something better and move him to the right, that will be OK too. As long as Rodgers never has to drop back and have a piece of crap at LT, we'll be OK. I'm pretty sure he's not a piece of crap, so right away I'm happy. I think he'll be a really good pro, just not sure if it will be all at LT. I hope it is, but I'm not sure.

You need to get back on your meds quickly, and I apologize if that offends anyone.

[Deputy Nutz]

Jonathan Ogden
Orlando Pace
Walter Jones

are the top three in the last decade or so

Joe Thomas
Jake Long
D. Ferguson
and if he moves to the left side, Michael Oher

Bulga doesn't even register at this point, not that he won't be a servicable starter, but because he hasn't even played a game in the NFL yet.

If you want my opinion on him, he is going to be a servicable starter some where on the offensive line.

[pbmax]

... DeBrickshaw Ferguson has wonderful reviews up to this point. They noted how his arms are so long it's an extreme rarity that a DL even gets to his full second step before Ferguson is putting that intial hit on him with his long arms...
If you got that quote right, that may be the dumbest thing I have heard. That a max of 4 inches stops (or allows) a full second step.

Possibly, they meant that he can trust those arms to catch an edge rusher and allow him to play with less of a kick step or backpedal. But then that is a question of technique, anticipation and recovery as much as it is about arm length.

As for dropping, several top of the line players have waited until the late first round or high second. That does not mean his has any disqualifying factors. Clifton went in the second round and was a fixture for 10 years. The only part of his background that worries me is the dropoff from sophomore to junior year. If it was all related to the thyroid infection and Ferentz was telling the truth, then the Packers got a steal. If he was exposed, then the Packers may have trusted his coach (and the coach's former assistant-Philbin) more than they should.

[bobblehead]

... DeBrickshaw Ferguson has wonderful reviews up to this point. They noted how his arms are so long it's an extreme rarity that a DL even gets to his full second step before Ferguson is putting that intial hit on him with his long arms...
If you got that quote right, that may be the dumbest thing I have heard. That a max of 4 inches stops (or allows) a full second step.

Possibly, they meant that he can trust those arms to catch an edge rusher and allow him to play with less of a kick step or backpedal. But then that is a question of technique, anticipation and recovery as much as it is about arm length.

As for dropping, several top of the line players have waited until the late first round or high second. That does not mean his has any disqualifying factors. Clifton went in the second round and was a fixture for 10 years. The only part of his background that worries me is the dropoff from sophomore to junior year. If it was all related to the thyroid infection and Ferentz was telling the truth, then the Packers got a steal. If he was exposed, then the Packers may have trusted his coach (and the coach's former assistant-Philbin) more than they should.

I believe he probably got the quote right, but I also believe its absolutely ignorant.

Long arms give ONE advantage. If you can extend and lock on before the DE does you can stand him up. If you stand him up he loses all leverage and ability to shift and twist on you. Arm length is directly relevant in relation to the other guys arm length. It likely is the difference between an LT that can totally lock guys down and one who consistently gives the QB 4-5 seconds, but never 7-8. In our offense if ARod is holding the ball long enough for a DE to exploit BB's "short" arms then its on the QB.

[Fritz]

Is it legal for other species to play football in the NFL? If it's really all about arm length, couldn't Thompson sign a gorilla to play left tackle?

[Tarlam!]

Is it legal for other species to play football in the NFL? If it's really all about arm length, couldn't Thompson sign a gorilla to play left tackle?

I was thinking an orangotang, myself.

[pbmax]

Is it legal for other species to play football in the NFL? If it's really all about arm length, couldn't Thompson sign a gorilla to play left tackle?
You just stole the working thesis of the former Balco scientists, working on the next cream and clear.