Performance Enhancers

[twoseven]

rats, in lieu of the recent discussions on the Williams' and now Cushing, i don't think it's a bad idea to get a string going on performance enhancers in general, both legal and illegal. i for one want the differences between certain PEs to be more clear, what the different kinds are, how they can help (and posibly hurt you), more fact and less fiction. too many of them just get lumped together. this string probably belongs in the Romper Room, but so many are working on the WW and Cushind string, i figured best to start it here. i know there are at least a few rats that work out and use what can be considered a PE, there are many mopre that use PEs everyday and do not realize it. maybe this string could take some of the edge off the term PE and allow us to learn a little more about what may or may not be helping some of these guys and ourselvbes at the same time to achieve better levels of fitness. i am really interested to get some input on this subject.

[red]

is it possible to look like the after picture of cushing without taking something that the nfl deems illegal?

you can't get from point a to point b naturally, can you?

[twoseven]

personally i take quite a few PEs:

additional amounts creatine (everyone's body already makes its own)

HMB (hydroxymethylbutyrate)

every Amino Acid known to man (some in very high PE dosage: L-Arginine, L-Tyrosine, L-Alanine, Glutamic Acid, Pantothenic Acid, Lysine, Aspartic Acid)

every water and fat soluble vitamin, essential oil and mineral known to man (some in very high PE doasge: B6, B12, Vit C, Vit A, Magnesium, Chromium)

caffiene (huge PE)


all are seperate from normal dietary ingestibles, yet all are 100% legal for me and many are legal for the NFL. each one plays a different role in my pursuit of additonal strength, size, endurance, recovery, focus, and energy levels.

but on the surface when i say i take several PEs, some of you may have had different images in your head of other substances.

[twoseven]

is it possible to look like the after picture of cushing without taking something that the nfl deems illegal?

you can't get from point a to point b naturally, can you? yes and yes. just not as quickly or safely. there are a great many natural and legal people out there that can lift more than many NFL players and are more muscular.

i have spent a lifetime around people that could naturally bench press 400-500-600 pounds, squat 600-700-800 pounds, deadlift 700-800-900 pounds. they spent 5-10-15 years, some a lifetime, building these numbers though, not a handful of months or years. that's the biggest difference. muscles that can move even fractions of this kind of weight get big, if these same people keep their bodyfat down they look incredibly muscular too. on the surface some would judge these people as taking illegal substances without knowing enough of the story.

plenty of the illegal drugs they take are running through all of us in normal and lower levels. the human body is capable of all the things we are seeing, just not to the same degree of time it takes to get them there.

[mraynrand]

The Ab lounge was sufficient to get 'Ole Cleedeeus in tip top shape. No need for PEs

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/abloungeHunt.jpg

[Iron Mike]

The Ab lounge was sufficient to get 'Ole Cleedeeus in tip top shape. No need for PEs

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/abloungeHunt.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/openserving/sports/images/thumb/3/30/Player_profile_Cletidus_Hunt.jpg/106px-Player_profile_Cletidus_Hunt.jpg

Heeeeeeeeeey....

[CaptainKickass]

Wow! Haven't seen 'Ole Cleedeeus on this forum for a LOOOOOOONNNNNNNNGGGGG ass time!

I have a different view on PE's/Steroids than most. I think the NFL should just allow it. Especially supervised. I mean it IS science and biology. I think it would benefit the game greatly, and also give a sort of legitimate petri dish environment for the long term study of the effects of each.

But then again I support a few things most don't.

[Guiness]

I use 3-4 things I would generally consider PE's.

1. Ibuprofen - 200-400mg before a game. It helps keep the pain in my knees at pay, and I get less swelling as a result of it. I also take Devil's Claw and Glucosamine supplements to help

2. Pseudoephedrine based anti-histamine - keeps my nasal passages open, rais

3. Creatine - helps me maintain muscle tone, I tend to lose it quickly when my activity is too high.

4. And yup - caffeine. Along with the PSE it keeps the excitability factor up, and sharpens reflexes.

Beer at half time...doesn't seem to help, but I keep trying!

[Guiness]

is it possible to look like the after picture of cushing without taking something that the nfl deems illegal?

you can't get from point a to point b naturally, can you?

Which after picture?

The one of him flexing? Yes, that's not that much, really. I'd say there were half a dozen guys I played ball with that looked like that.

This is what you can't look like without the PE's
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SOA99Aw8Juo/SVmiWtxbgQI/AAAAAAAAAD4/Tj-CQRdkKzg/s400/Rich_Gaspari_003.jpg

The after picture of him with the nipples? I'd say that's damming than the muscular picture. Low body fat and males breasts are a dead giveaway.

[Freak Out]

How much chromium are we talking 27?

[pbmax]

Try this first: http://www.scribd.com/doc/14066744/NFL-Banned-Substances

The drug policy itself and the banned list as of 2007.

[twoseven]

How much chromium are we talking 27?150-200 mcg, nothing too serious. RDA is about 100 mcg. vitamin B6 and B12 are anywhere from 500-5000% RDA though depending on what i might mix to drink from day to day. lots of energy from those, check your energy drink of choice, you'll find plnety of vitamins and aminos that are getting you going, plus some caffiene as well.

[bobblehead]

HMB seems to me to be the best legal PE I have ever encountered. If I lay off the weights for 2 weeks, but continue with the HMB I never seem to lose a thing, but lay off the HMB during the same period and I feel like a teenager again.

27, I agree with most everything you say, but the pictures you posted in the other thread were of guys who dedicate their entire time on this planet to achieving those bodies. Guys who play pro sports can't do this. The recovery time of their chosen profession makes it near impossible to lift in a manner necessary.

Taking it a step further I would say its likely that at least 1 of them is using something illegal and really good at not getting caught. Further yet I would say to achieve that type of muscularity in the biceps takes freekish genetics and 98% of the population could never achieve that without "cheating". Sorry, but I am so skeptical at this point that I tend to not believe most people making a claim, evidence to the contrary. Could all those guys achieve those physiques naturally? Sure, if they are all gifted genetically and aviod injury. Do I believe that in a random sample of 4 exceptional physiques where all 4 claim to be natural, that at least 2 are lying....yes, sadly I do.

Its also much harder to guess looking at guys oiled up and in competition poses where they have pumped the blood into the muscles for the fullest look they can achieve. Again referring to Frank Zane, he often talked about the bloated stomach look of roid freaks. Designer roids are better nowdays to the point where telling the difference between a recreational user and the guys in those pictures is harder than ever. The hardcore users are still likely to stand out though.

For my taste they should legalize the entire spectrum for non competitors. Used responsibly HgH and T are all benefit with no downside. Designers roids are so good that used in conjunction with a health professional they are safe as well. I'm all about my health, and I would have no vanity issues with using a substance to achieve a better body and a healthier body at this point in my life. Too bad for me a few politicians know what is best for me and getting HgH is next to impossible (all evidence of it being harmful to the contrary).

[twoseven]

HMB seems to me to be the best legal PE I have ever encountered. If I lay off the weights for 2 weeks, but continue with the HMB I never seem to lose a thing, but lay off the HMB during the same period and I feel like a teenager again.

27, I agree with most everything you say, but the pictures you posted in the other thread were of guys who dedicate their entire time on this planet to achieving those bodies. Guys who play pro sports can't do this. The recovery time of their chosen profession makes it near impossible to lift in a manner necessary.

Taking it a step further I would say its likely that at least 1 of them is using something illegal and really good at not getting caught. Further yet I would say to achieve that type of muscularity in the biceps takes freekish genetics and 98% of the population could never achieve that without "cheating". Sorry, but I am so skeptical at this point that I tend to not believe most people making a claim, evidence to the contrary. Could all those guys achieve those physiques naturally? Sure, if they are all gifted genetically and aviod injury. Do I believe that in a random sample of 4 exceptional physiques where all 4 claim to be natural, that at least 2 are lying....yes, sadly I do.

Its also much harder to guess looking at guys oiled up and in competition poses where they have pumped the blood into the muscles for the fullest look they can achieve. Again referring to Frank Zane, he often talked about the bloated stomach look of roid freaks. Designer roids are better nowdays to the point where telling the difference between a recreational user and the guys in those pictures is harder than ever. The hardcore users are still likely to stand out though.

For my taste they should legalize the entire spectrum for non competitors. Used responsibly HgH and T are all benefit with no downside. Designers roids are so good that used in conjunction with a health professional they are safe as well. I'm all about my health, and I would have no vanity issues with using a substance to achieve a better body and a healthier body at this point in my life. Too bad for me a few politicians know what is best for me and getting HgH is next to impossible (all evidence of it being harmful to the contrary).dude, you and i both have a very different perspective of what is and is not possible both naturally an unnatrually than most people. i hope you can understand that there are plenty of people out there that look at a normal person with some muscles and will still think something is up. this is what i am hoping will change. i just get tired of everyone automatically thinking someone is cheating just because they can move a lot of weight or has a pretty good physique.

the entire point of posting those natural shots was to open some eyes out there as to what is possible and just how much that oil and light can make someone go from normal to freak. you and i already get it, it's the others i am hoping to reach. i also posted those very non freaky shots of the baseball playes to illustrate how you can still be on something and not be a big ripped up specimen. i just don't think it is fair to have an automatic pass/fail at the ready after looking at a photo without knowing more about a person or player before passing judgement. i hope you can understand.

the levels to which this discussion are going are really getting off the mark considering how they started, we could go on for awhile about things that are going to go too far over some heads and make what could be a interesting discussion to damn confusing and or boring. i'd rather keep it simple. my point was only to let others know that cushing's big muscles (while possibly tainted) can still be achieved legally, and that no one should rush to judgement becuase of what they do or do not see in a photo. fair enough?

meanwhile, yes HMB is the bomb. if you can find it cheap enough to be able to get enough in your system it will really add to your strength. i sell some and handed some free samples to friends at the gym i am at. their eyes nearly popped out of their heads when they saw what happened to their gains the next couple of weeks, and then at a less rapid pace as weeks went on. unlike the elevated creatine levels, i have yet to lose one ounce of gain when i take a couple weeks off. very nice. i have yet to see it on any banned lists and am happy about this.

[bobblehead]

I will give it to you for your main point. Even though I think one of those guys cheats, I would say its also just almost a lock that at least one is genuinely clean. And if any one of those guys is clean it says a lot about what is possible.

I have a close friend who I took from 6'4" and 170lbs to 225lbs in 2 years.....all VERY clean. Creatine, HMB and protein shakes. No T boosters, no tribulus, no DHEA, nothing other than those 3 proven safe PE's. It turned out to be a mistake as I could never take him down in our sparring sessions after that.

You are correct that guys can get in very good shape and look really good if they work hard at it. When I was 26 I was able to achieve a remarkable physique and strenght (benched 225 a solit 26 times). Like I said, I hit a limit at about 190lbs. (I'm only 5'9") After that I lost definition as I gained size. By 35 I started getting injuries in the elbows and shoulders. Thus my obsession with HgH. It would allow for the connective tissue to keep up with my strength at the age of 40. Instead I get a steady diet of watching myself slip, or ending up with a shoulder scope. Ah to be young again like Cushing and not NEED the junk he chose to take.

Again to your point....guys who are TRULY dedicated to proper nutrition and lifting habits can look silly good. Jim Cordova competes in the drug free circuit and for my taste his physique is superior to any of the bloated midsection Roidhead freaks out there. I bet that cat gets the chics in droves.

[twoseven]

..guys who are TRULY dedicated to proper nutrition and lifting habits can look silly good. Jim Cordova competes in the drug free circuit and for my taste his physique is superior to any of the bloated midsection Roidhead freaks out there.this is exactly what i am hoping some of the non experienced lifters that might read this will be able to see and understand, and it was the entire point of my starting this string. i spend every day working with others to try and help them achieve these same things clean, convincing them they are only limited by their own imaginations. it's important to me that when things like Cushing's example pop up that no one runs wild with too much specualtion on other athletes at the same time. because although there may be a few that get it, there are still too many that see muscles and think cheater, regardless of what the truth may be. i just figured this was a good opportunity to try and bend some minds a different direction.

[swede]

What about Arnold?

He had that beautiful 26 inch waist to go with the massive upper body.

Are you going to ruin my day and tell me that Conan was built out of 'roids? :(

[swede]

Never mind...

I think this is all the answer I need... :(

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dsteenswede44/arnold-schwarzenegger-big.jpg

[swede]

Okay, now THIS guy had to be clean!

The one, the only, Steve Reeves.
http://www.ratemyarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/steve-reeves-ideal-proportions-bodybuilding.jpg

[pbmax]

What about Arnold?

He had that beautiful 26 inch waist to go with the massive upper body.

Are you going to ruin my day and tell me that Conan was built out of 'roids? :(
Arnold has gone public with his admission of use.

[Guiness]

Late 50's and early 60's lifters almost all used. The roids were new on the scene, and the 'side' effects were unknown, debated, not understood, etc. Sergio Olivia was another from that generation.

I've got a relative that was in the US forces - paratrooper around that time. He was a massive specimen, and talked about the 'little white pills' that he was given with his meals. On retrospective, he's pretty sure he was being juiced by the forces.

[twoseven]

Late 50's and early 60's lifters almost all used. The roids were new on the scene, and the 'side' effects were unknown, debated, not understood, etc. Sergio Olivia was another from that generation.

I've got a relative that was in the US forces - paratrooper around that time. He was a massive specimen, and talked about the 'little white pills' that he was given with his meals. On retrospective, he's pretty sure he was being juiced by the forces.the germans if i rememeber correctly were the first to work towards something like this, thought they were the lead contributors to what in fact became your first anabolics to create a superhuman soldier. meanwhile, something to help repair the beat up and injured bodies was also sought after. amphetamines have been used for centuries if not eons to keep soldiers moving along, would not be shocked if that was more likely what he was being given. anyone that has ever used a charged up combo of those super energy mixes can attest to how much more effective they feel and perform on them, steroids or not.

[bobblehead]

What about Arnold?

He had that beautiful 26 inch waist to go with the massive upper body.

Are you going to ruin my day and tell me that Conan was built out of 'roids? :(
Arnold has gone public with his admission of use.

To see the "clean" Arnold, go watch the last terminator movie he was in. Something like 54 years old at the time, and he had health problems that would have made it almost impossible to juice. he still looked fucking awesome and he had been clean for a long time at that point.

[pbmax]

What about Arnold?

He had that beautiful 26 inch waist to go with the massive upper body.

Are you going to ruin my day and tell me that Conan was built out of 'roids? :(
Arnold has gone public with his admission of use.

To see the "clean" Arnold, go watch the last terminator movie he was in. Something like 54 years old at the time, and he had health problems that would have made it almost impossible to juice. he still looked fucking awesome and he had been clean for a long time at that point.
All quite possible. I was just stating that he has admitting to using them. He claims he used them while they were still legal and over the counter.

[Guiness]

Late 50's and early 60's lifters almost all used. The roids were new on the scene, and the 'side' effects were unknown, debated, not understood, etc. Sergio Olivia was another from that generation.

I've got a relative that was in the US forces - paratrooper around that time. He was a massive specimen, and talked about the 'little white pills' that he was given with his meals. On retrospective, he's pretty sure he was being juiced by the forces.the germans if i rememeber correctly were the first to work towards something like this, thought they were the lead contributors to what in fact became your first anabolics to create a superhuman soldier. meanwhile, something to help repair the beat up and injured bodies was also sought after. amphetamines have been used for centuries if not eons to keep soldiers moving along, would not be shocked if that was more likely what he was being given. anyone that has ever used a charged up combo of those super energy mixes can attest to how much more effective they feel and perform on them, steroids or not.

He was a paratrooper - beans went with the territory when on active duty (he did two tours in Korea) but the pills he was referring to were being given to him when he was back at the base.

East Germans and steroids - remember the bulked up women and sex checks?

[bobblehead]

What about Arnold?

He had that beautiful 26 inch waist to go with the massive upper body.

Are you going to ruin my day and tell me that Conan was built out of 'roids? :(
Arnold has gone public with his admission of use.

To see the "clean" Arnold, go watch the last terminator movie he was in. Something like 54 years old at the time, and he had health problems that would have made it almost impossible to juice. he still looked fucking awesome and he had been clean for a long time at that point.
All quite possible. I was just stating that he has admitting to using them. He claims he used them while they were still legal and over the counter.

No doubt, I wasn't trying to dispute that. He DEFINATLY did the juice in his day. He has admitted it and had thyroid problems for his efforts. I didn't mean to infer otherwise. But since 27 is trying to show what a dedicated clean bodybuilder can achieve I thought the clean 54 year old arnie was a great example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMvuIBcA8Qo

[Cleft Crusty]

The best performance enhancer Clefty has ever seen is a good swift kick in the ass.

[Administrator]

The best performance enhancer Clefty has ever seen is a good swift kick in the ass.

Vince, is that you? :shock:

[get louder at lambeau]

The best performance enhancer Clefty has ever seen is a good swift kick in the ass.

Vince, is that you? :shock:

I met a guy once who claimed his dad played under Lombardi. I think it was practice squad or something, not sure. Anyway, he told me (and he wasn't proud of this, kinda whispering) that Lombardi kicked his dad in the ass with some pointy-toed wingtip dress shoes on, and tore his rectum. :shock:

[swede]

That's how it was with Vince. He either fixed 'em or rectum.

[retailguy]

That's how it was with Vince. He either fixed 'em or rectum.

you should take this show on the road.

[bobblehead]

The best performance enhancer Clefty has ever seen is a good swift kick in the ass.

You lie....the best performance enhancer old Clefty ever saw was that little blue pill by his nightstand.

[bobblehead]

Quick question for 27, or anyone else with knowledge. I was wondering how effective NO enhancers are long term and if there is a specific product line that is worth using.

[twoseven]

Quick question for 27, or anyone else with knowledge. I was wondering how effective NO enhancers are long term and if there is a specific product line that is worth using.i am actually fooling with a few as we speak. the basic common ingredient (i am pretty sure) in all of them is the L-Arginine. Arginine defnitely provides a boost on it's own, energy and some pump, plus most of the others NOS stuff has other safe ingreients plus some caffiene depending on which you choose. These are pretty much just going to give your workouts kick in the ass energy-wise, not for much else. I am using Arginine Extreme, it's from AdvoCare, the line of stuff that I sell. On the outside of my own products I am just starting NO2 Black. I know many people like the NOxplode. If you really want a buzz go for that Black Powder shit, it contains probably the highest amount of caffiene plus some of your green tea. Need to drink a lot of water when on this stuff, at least 2 liters per day. The NO2 Black has to be taken a half hour before breakfast, so it's not ideal for some people who eat right away, again 30 min before lunch.

[Guiness]

Quick question for 27, or anyone else with knowledge. I was wondering how effective NO enhancers are long term and if there is a specific product line that is worth using.

Tough question to answer BH. No enhancers? Depends on your definition of an enhancer - is a couple cans of coke or coffee an enhancer (caffeine)? Protein powders? Some products will give you a lot of return, and you need to select a type based on your body, your goals, etc. Personally, I have a very high metabolism, and had (have) trouble keeping weight on when I'm active, so I used a lot of the high calorie shakes. Someone else who bumped up their intake might just get fat.

There are certainly a lot of product lines out there. I believe in finding a store I'm comfortable with, and shopping local as opposed to mail ordering stuff. Decide what style of product you want to use, and go to a store and talk to them about it. I do like the Optium Pro blend, so it's one to consider.

[bobblehead]

Quick question for 27, or anyone else with knowledge. I was wondering how effective NO enhancers are long term and if there is a specific product line that is worth using.

Tough question to answer BH. No enhancers? Depends on your definition of an enhancer - is a couple cans of coke or coffee an enhancer (caffeine)? Protein powders? Some products will give you a lot of return, and you need to select a type based on your body, your goals, etc. Personally, I have a very high metabolism, and had (have) trouble keeping weight on when I'm active, so I used a lot of the high calorie shakes. Someone else who bumped up their intake might just get fat.

There are certainly a lot of product lines out there. I believe in finding a store I'm comfortable with, and shopping local as opposed to mail ordering stuff. Decide what style of product you want to use, and go to a store and talk to them about it. I do like the Optium Pro blend, so it's one to consider.

I didn't realize the would read no enhancer, I meant nitrous oxide enhancer. Arginine is the key ingrediant and I used the first one out years ago. Was just wondering if anything better was out. I might simply try 10 grams of Arginine before bed (powder form) and see what happens.

[twoseven]

Quick question for 27, or anyone else with knowledge. I was wondering how effective NO enhancers are long term and if there is a specific product line that is worth using.

Tough question to answer BH. No enhancers? Depends on your definition of an enhancer - is a couple cans of coke or coffee an enhancer (caffeine)? Protein powders? Some products will give you a lot of return, and you need to select a type based on your body, your goals, etc. Personally, I have a very high metabolism, and had (have) trouble keeping weight on when I'm active, so I used a lot of the high calorie shakes. Someone else who bumped up their intake might just get fat.

There are certainly a lot of product lines out there. I believe in finding a store I'm comfortable with, and shopping local as opposed to mail ordering stuff. Decide what style of product you want to use, and go to a store and talk to them about it. I do like the Optium Pro blend, so it's one to consider.

I didn't realize the would read no enhancer, I meant nitrous oxide enhancer. Arginine is the key ingrediant and I used the first one out years ago. Was just wondering if anything better was out. I might simply try 10 grams of Arginine before bed (powder form) and see what happens.

that's a pretty big dose before being non-active, might be an interesting time getting to sleep. i get 5g from the Black, and 2.5g from Extreme. Black is before breakfast and before lunch. Extreme is 30 min before workout.

[bobblehead]

Quick question for 27, or anyone else with knowledge. I was wondering how effective NO enhancers are long term and if there is a specific product line that is worth using.

Tough question to answer BH. No enhancers? Depends on your definition of an enhancer - is a couple cans of coke or coffee an enhancer (caffeine)? Protein powders? Some products will give you a lot of return, and you need to select a type based on your body, your goals, etc. Personally, I have a very high metabolism, and had (have) trouble keeping weight on when I'm active, so I used a lot of the high calorie shakes. Someone else who bumped up their intake might just get fat.

There are certainly a lot of product lines out there. I believe in finding a store I'm comfortable with, and shopping local as opposed to mail ordering stuff. Decide what style of product you want to use, and go to a store and talk to them about it. I do like the Optium Pro blend, so it's one to consider.

I didn't realize the would read no enhancer, I meant nitrous oxide enhancer. Arginine is the key ingrediant and I used the first one out years ago. Was just wondering if anything better was out. I might simply try 10 grams of Arginine before bed (powder form) and see what happens.

that's a pretty big dose before being non-active, might be an interesting time getting to sleep. i get 5g from the Black, and 2.5g from Extreme. Black is before breakfast and before lunch. Extreme is 30 min before workout.

I've read that a big load like 10 grams on an empty stomach would help the body release HgH....since the body releases during sleep it seems like the time to take it. I'll see, maybe it won't work, but I'm going to try it I think.

[twoseven]

Quick question for 27, or anyone else with knowledge. I was wondering how effective NO enhancers are long term and if there is a specific product line that is worth using.

Tough question to answer BH. No enhancers? Depends on your definition of an enhancer - is a couple cans of coke or coffee an enhancer (caffeine)? Protein powders? Some products will give you a lot of return, and you need to select a type based on your body, your goals, etc. Personally, I have a very high metabolism, and had (have) trouble keeping weight on when I'm active, so I used a lot of the high calorie shakes. Someone else who bumped up their intake might just get fat.

There are certainly a lot of product lines out there. I believe in finding a store I'm comfortable with, and shopping local as opposed to mail ordering stuff. Decide what style of product you want to use, and go to a store and talk to them about it. I do like the Optium Pro blend, so it's one to consider.

I didn't realize the would read no enhancer, I meant nitrous oxide enhancer. Arginine is the key ingrediant and I used the first one out years ago. Was just wondering if anything better was out. I might simply try 10 grams of Arginine before bed (powder form) and see what happens.

that's a pretty big dose before being non-active, might be an interesting time getting to sleep. i get 5g from the Black, and 2.5g from Extreme. Black is before breakfast and before lunch. Extreme is 30 min before workout.

I've read that a big load like 10 grams on an empty stomach would help the body release HgH....since the body releases during sleep it seems like the time to take it. I'll see, maybe it won't work, but I'm going to try it I think.my only concern is how much it costs per serving of Arg, gets pretty spendy with what i am using to take it outside of the directives. the FREE way to stimulate natural GH release is by implementing the big, full body lifts into your routine (if you aren't already) like squats, deads, cleans, heavy pulls and presses.

EDIT: so i search cheapest Arg and come up with this

http://www.global-supplements.com/l-arginine/?gclid=CPydpITg2KECFQpciAodRTwlJA

4,000mg tabs, 75 tabs per bottle, $21 and $6 shipping. think it's lowest on net. shoots my cost issue right to hell. unlimited order size and shipping still only $6.

[packerbacker1234]

Everyone tends to use some sort of PE, and I think it's common place in every sport. Usually for faster recoveries, I would think.

I like all the stories out there too about roids and how "they make you so much stronger" - they actually don't. They lessen muscle fatigue significantly, which in turn causes you to be able to work out more. You still have to "earn" your muscles. Of course, there are negatives to roids too, everyonw knoiws it.

I just think in general, PE's are just really common place and I don't think much of it. I mean, look at the starcaps case going on - does anyone really care? Did star caps really effect anything on the field? Pretty doubtful.

[twoseven]

Everyone tends to use some sort of PE, and I think it's common place in every sport. Usually for faster recoveries, I would think.

I like all the stories out there too about roids and how "they make you so much stronger" - they actually don't. They lessen muscle fatigue significantly, which in turn causes you to be able to work out more. You still have to "earn" your muscles. Of course, there are negatives to roids too, everyonw knoiws it.

I just think in general, PE's are just really common place and I don't think much of it. I mean, look at the starcaps case going on - does anyone really care? Did star caps really effect anything on the field? Pretty doubtful.i agree, this was the point of my wanting to start this convo. there's still some knee-jerk reaction when you hear or read the words performance enhancer. but when you stop to think about it for a minute you realize just how many people are doing or taking something to enhance their own performance, and maybe we should find a different set of words for the sometimes illegal or immoral and possibly dangerous maigc potions some use versus the legal and safe stuff a great many of use use on a dialy or weekly basis.

[twoseven]

http://www.topnews.in/health/files/beer.jpg

Performance ENHANCER

[Guiness]

I didn't realize the would read no enhancer, I meant nitrous oxide enhancer. Arginine is the key ingrediant and I used the first one out years ago. Was just wondering if anything better was out. I might simply try 10 grams of Arginine before bed (powder form) and see what happens.

lol at the mis-read!

Do you need the 'O'? Guinness is dispensed with Nitrous (N2)!

[bobblehead]

Quick question for 27, or anyone else with knowledge. I was wondering how effective NO enhancers are long term and if there is a specific product line that is worth using.

Tough question to answer BH. No enhancers? Depends on your definition of an enhancer - is a couple cans of coke or coffee an enhancer (caffeine)? Protein powders? Some products will give you a lot of return, and you need to select a type based on your body, your goals, etc. Personally, I have a very high metabolism, and had (have) trouble keeping weight on when I'm active, so I used a lot of the high calorie shakes. Someone else who bumped up their intake might just get fat.

There are certainly a lot of product lines out there. I believe in finding a store I'm comfortable with, and shopping local as opposed to mail ordering stuff. Decide what style of product you want to use, and go to a store and talk to them about it. I do like the Optium Pro blend, so it's one to consider.

I didn't realize the would read no enhancer, I meant nitrous oxide enhancer. Arginine is the key ingrediant and I used the first one out years ago. Was just wondering if anything better was out. I might simply try 10 grams of Arginine before bed (powder form) and see what happens.

that's a pretty big dose before being non-active, might be an interesting time getting to sleep. i get 5g from the Black, and 2.5g from Extreme. Black is before breakfast and before lunch. Extreme is 30 min before workout.

I've read that a big load like 10 grams on an empty stomach would help the body release HgH....since the body releases during sleep it seems like the time to take it. I'll see, maybe it won't work, but I'm going to try it I think.my only concern is how much it costs per serving of Arg, gets pretty spendy with what i am using to take it outside of the directives. the FREE way to stimulate natural GH release is by implementing the big, full body lifts into your routine (if you aren't already) like squats, deads, cleans, heavy pulls and presses.

EDIT: so i search cheapest Arg and come up with this

http://www.global-supplements.com/l-arginine/?gclid=CPydpITg2KECFQpciAodRTwlJA

4,000mg tabs, 75 tabs per bottle, $21 and $6 shipping. think it's lowest on net. shoots my cost issue right to hell. unlimited order size and shipping still only $6.

I've been MIA on this thread for awhile....politics caught my interest a little lately.

I think I'll order from this site, I was thinking of using powdered, but this seems like a good value.

I don't do as many of those big body lifts anymore as my age is starting to inhibit me a little bit and I don't want injury. I've been out of the game lately with 2 shoulder scopes and an elbow surgery. Took away my last 3 years of lifting and I'm just looking to get back at it again as my body fat is up around 20% now (from 8% 5 years ago). My fault for not watching my diet when I couldn't lift.

[bobblehead]

Everyone tends to use some sort of PE, and I think it's common place in every sport. Usually for faster recoveries, I would think.

I like all the stories out there too about roids and how "they make you so much stronger" - they actually don't. They lessen muscle fatigue significantly, which in turn causes you to be able to work out more. You still have to "earn" your muscles. Of course, there are negatives to roids too, everyonw knoiws it.

I just think in general, PE's are just really common place and I don't think much of it. I mean, look at the starcaps case going on - does anyone really care? Did star caps really effect anything on the field? Pretty doubtful.i agree, this was the point of my wanting to start this convo. there's still some knee-jerk reaction when you hear or read the words performance enhancer. but when you stop to think about it for a minute you realize just how many people are doing or taking something to enhance their own performance, and maybe we should find a different set of words for the sometimes illegal or immoral and possibly dangerous maigc potions some use versus the legal and safe stuff a great many of use use on a dialy or weekly basis.

i still disagree with you guys on this point. Steroids are scientifically designed to be more anabolic than Testosterone, therefore they WILL stimulate more growth. The other stuff is true too, you will recover faster and suffer less fatigue, but believe me, bovine growth hormone isn't given to cows so they can recover faster from workouts...its so they grow more mass and produce more milk with the SAME amount of not working out. Steroids are simply better cell production stimulators than our bodies natural steroid of testosterone.

now that isn't to say guys can't get freaky strong and ripped naturally by taking a little more time, but a natural body builder will never compete with a dirty one, all other things being equal.

27, the reason we jump to conclusions when we see a cushing with a ripped up body is because he likely doesn't commit to bodybuilding like the guys who do it clean. he is a football player and is working on athletic performance.....when suddenly he looks like he is competing in mr. universe its natural that we assume the worst. (maybe not fair, but natural).

[twoseven]

Everyone tends to use some sort of PE, and I think it's common place in every sport. Usually for faster recoveries, I would think.

I like all the stories out there too about roids and how "they make you so much stronger" - they actually don't. They lessen muscle fatigue significantly, which in turn causes you to be able to work out more. You still have to "earn" your muscles. Of course, there are negatives to roids too, everyonw knoiws it.

I just think in general, PE's are just really common place and I don't think much of it. I mean, look at the starcaps case going on - does anyone really care? Did star caps really effect anything on the field? Pretty doubtful.i agree, this was the point of my wanting to start this convo. there's still some knee-jerk reaction when you hear or read the words performance enhancer. but when you stop to think about it for a minute you realize just how many people are doing or taking something to enhance their own performance, and maybe we should find a different set of words for the sometimes illegal or immoral and possibly dangerous maigc potions some use versus the legal and safe stuff a great many of use use on a dialy or weekly basis.

i still disagree with you guys on this point. Steroids are scientifically designed to be more anabolic than Testosterone, therefore they WILL stimulate more growth. The other stuff is true too, you will recover faster and suffer less fatigue, but believe me, bovine growth hormone isn't given to cows so they can recover faster from workouts...its so they grow more mass and produce more milk with the SAME amount of not working out. Steroids are simply better cell production stimulators than our bodies natural steroid of testosterone.

now that isn't to say guys can't get freaky strong and ripped naturally by taking a little more time, but a natural body builder will never compete with a dirty one, all other things being equal.

27, the reason we jump to conclusions when we see a cushing with a ripped up body is because he likely doesn't commit to bodybuilding like the guys who do it clean. he is a football player and is working on athletic performance.....when suddenly he looks like he is competing in mr. universe its natural that we assume the worst. (maybe not fair, but natural).i said people jump to conclusions when they see the words performance enhancers and it was the only reason why i started this string. to get away from the roids talk and look at what enhancers can actually come to mean when the word Drugs is not attached to Performance Enhancing.

[twoseven]

Quick question for 27, or anyone else with knowledge. I was wondering how effective NO enhancers are long term and if there is a specific product line that is worth using.

Tough question to answer BH. No enhancers? Depends on your definition of an enhancer - is a couple cans of coke or coffee an enhancer (caffeine)? Protein powders? Some products will give you a lot of return, and you need to select a type based on your body, your goals, etc. Personally, I have a very high metabolism, and had (have) trouble keeping weight on when I'm active, so I used a lot of the high calorie shakes. Someone else who bumped up their intake might just get fat.

There are certainly a lot of product lines out there. I believe in finding a store I'm comfortable with, and shopping local as opposed to mail ordering stuff. Decide what style of product you want to use, and go to a store and talk to them about it. I do like the Optium Pro blend, so it's one to consider.

I didn't realize the would read no enhancer, I meant nitrous oxide enhancer. Arginine is the key ingrediant and I used the first one out years ago. Was just wondering if anything better was out. I might simply try 10 grams of Arginine before bed (powder form) and see what happens.

that's a pretty big dose before being non-active, might be an interesting time getting to sleep. i get 5g from the Black, and 2.5g from Extreme. Black is before breakfast and before lunch. Extreme is 30 min before workout.

I've read that a big load like 10 grams on an empty stomach would help the body release HgH....since the body releases during sleep it seems like the time to take it. I'll see, maybe it won't work, but I'm going to try it I think.my only concern is how much it costs per serving of Arg, gets pretty spendy with what i am using to take it outside of the directives. the FREE way to stimulate natural GH release is by implementing the big, full body lifts into your routine (if you aren't already) like squats, deads, cleans, heavy pulls and presses.

EDIT: so i search cheapest Arg and come up with this

http://www.global-supplements.com/l-arginine/?gclid=CPydpITg2KECFQpciAodRTwlJA

4,000mg tabs, 75 tabs per bottle, $21 and $6 shipping. think it's lowest on net. shoots my cost issue right to hell. unlimited order size and shipping still only $6.

I've been MIA on this thread for awhile....politics caught my interest a little lately.

I think I'll order from this site, I was thinking of using powdered, but this seems like a good value.

I don't do as many of those big body lifts anymore as my age is starting to inhibit me a little bit and I don't want injury. I've been out of the game lately with 2 shoulder scopes and an elbow surgery. Took away my last 3 years of lifting and I'm just looking to get back at it again as my body fat is up around 20% now (from 8% 5 years ago). My fault for not watching my diet when I couldn't lift.this IS powdered. much to my surprise it came without even a scoop or exact ratios for serving sizes. found a conversion site, did the math based on total servings they list and found a teaspoon to equate to about 3,000 mg.

btw, NO2 Black SUCKS. it has done nothing for me, and the shit is expensive.