Packers D to Decline in 2010?

[vince]

Logic might dictate that a switch in defensive scheme takes time to become effective. In the first year, players learn new concepts, alignments and responsibilities, which takes time to perfect. But in the second year, it should be farther along installing the defense, the players should be able to read and react more quickly, communicate more effectively, etc. with a years’ experience in the scheme, and the defense should be better.

That’s been the mantra coming from 1265 these days, but that hasn’t been the case historically with Dom Capers’ defenses. His teams have gotten worse in their second years almost across the board.
.................................................. ..,,,,...Difference in Ranking yr. 1 to yr. 2
....................Pts. Rank........Yds. Rank...............Pts..............Yds.
Steelers
92.....................2....................13
93.....................8.....................3.... ..................-6................10
Panthers
95.....................8.....................7
96.....................2....................10.... ...................6................-3
Jaguars
99.....................1.....................4
00....................16...................12..... ................-15...............-8
Texans
02.....................20...................16
03.....................27...................31.... .................-7...............-15
Dolphins
06......................5....................4
07.....................30..................23..... ...............-25...............-19

Average Difference from Yr. 1 to Yr. 2.......-9.4................-7

Packers
09.....................7....................2
Projected 2010...16...................9

Now, this is obviously a very small sample size, Capers' first year successes make it difficult to show a lot of improvement, and there are so many uncontrollable variables that it’s impossible to draw any hard conclusions, but the average decline is significant - or isn't it? The trend in his more recent stints has gotten much worse. Is it legitimate? Either way, how can we explain it and what does it tell us? Should we expect this decline with the 2010 Packers’ defense?

[pbmax]

I would think that a decline of some amount would be natural as teams have a full year (not one week) to prepare to face your defense and your personnel.

But at least one of those declines includes some other factors. Didn't the Dolphins team retool personnel and alter defensive scheme under Saban in Year 2?

[vince]

Wouldn't you expect that to be offset somewhat by the defense becoming better, and/or by Capers' anticipation of adjustments?

In seeing this trend, I wonder about Capers' predictability and/or ability to adjust in defensive scheming. On one hand, his defense is designed around delivering aggression and causing confusion for offenses, while on the other hand, perhaps offenses are able to catch up to him while he fails to adjust to stay a step ahead. Or maybe he outhinks himself and plays soft when he should consistently keep the foot on the gas more.

Maybe each of these individual occurrences of regression can be explained away for different reasons, as you've suggested with Miami PB. But there is a trend here, and Capers is the common thread.

I am by no means dismissing the dramatic improvement Capers has brought to this defense, nor am I suggesting that he should be replaced. I've got more questions than answers here, so I'm hopeful others can offer their opinions.

I'm confident of one thing. Absent a Rodgers injury, the offense should continue to be very good. This team may well go as far as the defense takes it.

[packerbacker1234]

I think a lot of it is situational too. Usually when installing a new defense, you don't necessarily have the right players all the time to runt he scheme. The first year your using mostly the same players from the prior year, adn 2nd year you usually have 2 to 3 new faces around, and they need time to adjust. That, or you lose some key players now and then because of the scheme change.

I think the packers are in the position to improve because the entire starting 11 is coming back, including harris. Kampman is a key loss... if were still in a 4-3. I honestly think Brad Jones played better than Kampman, and I don't think it was even close.

That being said, we have a very good mix on defense. We have some solid veteran leadership (Woodson, Harris, Barnet, Picket) and some of our young guys coming into their prime (Williams, Collins, Jenkins), and then a nice mix of young guns (Matthews, Jones, Raji). Were sitting in a pretty unique position I feel for capers to make us even better this season.

[Bretsky]

Should be interesting to see how this defense turns out and how well they can compete against some of the better teams on offense.

There are questions/ reasons for concern and here is a slight summation IMO

1. Will our CB's be as good or better then last year ? The loss of Al Harris really hurt us last year. He had about the worst injury for a football player. Most of the time the player never regains his full effectiveness, it seems, until he is two years back from tearing his ACL. We did little in the draft or FA to help that position. This is a position that it seems cannot afford another injury before the stench that ended last season would have to be relied upon. PAT Lee may be the wild card here. He was raw when he was drafted. Maybe he's the wildcard who makees this unit better. Gosh I sure hope so.

2. Will GB get enough consistent rush from the other OLB position so teams can't game plan/doub;e up Clay Matthews ? OLB pass rushers seemed to be very highly valued in this draft by most teams. Perhaps not so much by us. We waited until after the draft to start calling for the players who were pass over 200 plus times. Brad Jones showed some nice flashes of being a solid starter and at other times he looked terrible. We better hope he is the real deal or this defense could step back.

3. How much will we have Jolly this year ? He's a very solid player in this defense and I doubt Neal can step right in and be just as effective. On the other hand, after being a bit critical of TT for not trading down and gambling Neal was still there, if he knows Jolly is a dousche bag maybe he was alright just staying there and grabbing the right player.

Hopefully Raji shows enough improvement and Pickett players some out there will help that sitution

As some will point out, with decent health our offense has a shot to be really incredible this year; maybe the above won't matter much in the regular season.

But if we lost come playoff time my bet is one of the top three points is a strong part of the reason.

[bobblehead]

did we finish the season as the #1 D?? If so, i vote yes, we will get worse.

The D improved a lot, but much of it was a paper improvement. We have more room to get better and I expect a good to very good defense this year with a dominant offense.

[vince]

did we finish the season as the #1 D?? If so, i vote yes, we will get worse.

The D improved a lot, but much of it was a paper improvement. We have more room to get better and I expect a good to very good defense this year with a dominant offense.
As stated in the original post, the D finished #7 in points and #2 in yards. I believe we finished #1 in rushing defense only. More generally, the team was a top 5-10 defense last year, with one of the easiest schedules in terms of opposing offenses. Given the fact that they should be farther along in implementation of the D and virtually every player returns, along with some added talent, can/will they repeat that performance, or will the team drop 10 spots or so as Capers' teams have historically done on average?

I tend to agree that they should be able to maintain their strong performance, and perhaps even improve upon that, but that's not what's happened in the past, and I'd guess that Capers' previous teams' fans had similar feelings of confidence after strong first years as well.

There may be some credence in part at least with what wist has said as I recall when he states that Capers may have a tendency to get vanilla at times. Certainly, there are times when that may be warranted, and the injuries in the defensive backfield may well have tied his hands last year, but the facts show that, regardless of situation, offenses have historically "caught up" with his defenses, which may suggest that he's more reactive than proactive and doesn't adjust effectively.

I agree with Bretsky that it will likely come down to the players on the field, but Capers ability to help put them in position to succeed will also have a big impact on their success relative to how offenses adjust to what they think he's trying to do. Hopefully, he will buck his current trend of his defenses regressing in their second year.

[3irty1]

The defense will only get worse in terms of defensive metrics. Last year was an easy schedule and they still got lit up for their fair share during certain games. I expect better play on D but worse stats for the most part.

[vince]

The defense will only get worse in terms of defensive metrics. Last year was an easy schedule and they still got lit up for their fair share during certain games. I expect better play on D but worse stats for the most part.
Not sure I follow. How can a team give up more points and yards but "play better?"

[wist43]

Last year was an aberration... yes the defense was vastly improved from the previous few years, but they didn't play anyone - half their games came against the worst offenses in the league.

When they came up against a good offense, with a good QB... Capers went and hid in the corner hoping to hold them under 50.

I expect the defense to be marginally improved, but their numbers won't be as good; and, I fully expect Capers to continue to be ultra-conservative against good offenses with good QB's.

[pbmax]

The defense will only get worse in terms of defensive metrics. Last year was an easy schedule and they still got lit up for their fair share during certain games. I expect better play on D but worse stats for the most part.
Not sure I follow. How can a team give up more points and yards but "play better?"
By facing better offenses. If your quality of opposition increases, some of your measurables will look worse.

But I don't expect they will fall off the face of the planet, either. Some of those top offenses that hurt us will be replaced by more average ones.

[vince]

The defense will only get worse in terms of defensive metrics. Last year was an easy schedule and they still got lit up for their fair share during certain games. I expect better play on D but worse stats for the most part.
Not sure I follow. How can a team give up more points and yards but "play better?"
By facing better offenses. If your quality of opposition increases, some of your measurables will look worse.

But I don't expect they will fall off the face of the planet, either. Some of those top offenses that hurt us will be replaced by more average ones.
That makes sense based on projecting last years' results to this year. Last year, opponent offenses averaged an 18.5 ranking. The Packers' 2010 opponent offenses averaged a 16.5 ranking in 2009. So you'd expect a slight decline in defensive performance based on that. I wouldn't consider a slight decline in raw numbers a real decline in performance. If the defense is still a top 5-10 or there abouts, I wouldn't fret over the details.

But that doesn't explain the consistent drop of 10 spots or so that Capars' teams have experienced in the past.

[RashanGary]

Players who should get better

Matthews
Jones
Raji


Should drop off

Woodson


Should stay the same

Everyone else (assuming Jolly misses only 4 games)



Just talent, I think we got better. Being in the 2nd year, we should be a little further along early.



I don't see a drop off. Dom is going to work on rezone defense. He seems like a good, experienced coach. I'd expect improvement there. I would expect he will clean up some of the confusion we had with nickle and dime defenses as well.

Overall, I think last years defense was moderately overrated. This year we should have a slightly better defense. I'd call it a good, solid defense. Compared to last year, I'd say it should be similar with less glaring mistakes.

[vince]

McCarthy and/or Capers have stated that their number one goal is to be a top 5 team in sacks this year. That's encouraging because they got shredded when they failed to pressure the QB last year, even when they played a conservative soft zone designed to protect against explosive plays. That's Capers' MO and I think experienced QB's and coordinators can adjust to it relatively easily.

What may be more difficult to adjust to is the combination of pressure up front with press coverage behind to eliminate hot reads and short seam routes. That may allow for some big plays at times, even big runs perhaps, but that's what could keep teams and quarterbacks off balance the most and I think the Packers, if relatively healthy in the defensive backfield, have the personnel to succeed with it...as long as Jarrett Bush isn't isolated out on an island somewhere.

[HarveyWallbangers]

It's a concern. Can't say I didn't notice this when Dom was hired. However, there are a few things that get me less concerned.

1) The Steelers and Panthers teams were both still very good defenses in year #2. The Steelers actually improved their scoring defense. The Panthers defense helped them get to the NFC Championship game in year #2.
2) I believe the Jaguars went through salary cap issues in 2000 and their team was gutted quite a bit.
3) Nick Saban left after 2006 and the Dolphins had a new coach with a change in personnel.

That leaves the Texans. They were an expansion team and weren't that great defensively either year.

Let's also not forget that most of these teams were much worse when Dom took over.

[vince]

Harv to the rescue. Thank you sir.

I think there is still some concern about getting to the QB and the pass rush/coverage combinations. I expect that getting to the quarterback consistently will still require a lot of creative scheming/blitzing up front, and at times Capers has a tendency to play too soft on the backside and that hurt the Packers last year when it mattered most.

[RashanGary]

Yeah, good points, HW.

[Bretsky]

Players who should get better

Matthews
Jones
Raji


Should drop off

Woodson


Should stay the same

Everyone else (assuming Jolly misses only 4 games)

Just talent, I think we got better. Being in the 2nd year, we should be a little further along early.

I don't see a drop off. Dom is going to work on rezone defense. He seems like a good, experienced coach. I'd expect improvement there. I would expect he will clean up some of the confusion we had with nickle and dime defenses as well.

Overall, I think last years defense was moderately overrated. This year we should have a slightly better defense. I'd call it a good, solid defense. Compared to last year, I'd say it should be similar with less glaring mistakes.


I can buy into all of this, although I'm not drinking as much Jones Kool Aide as most in here.

I'd say an obvious, but slight dropoff would list Al Harris as well. I'm one of his biggest fans, but first year guys coming off of torn ACL's normally have a struggle year one. I still think he'll be fine....just not quite as good.

[retailguy]

No Sophomore slump for Matthews? Why so confident Jones will improve? I think if he's as good as last year, that's good enough. If woodson and Harris both slip, then we're in trouble. Those corners have to be able to play press or we're screwed. Dropoffs on both sides will lead to way too many big plays.

Not sure I buy all the hype about the defense, but I expect it to be good enough, no matter what.

[sharpe1027]

No Sophomore slump for Matthews? Why so confident Jones will improve? I think if he's as good as last year, that's good enough. If woodson and Harris both slip, then we're in trouble. Those corners have to be able to play press or we're screwed. Dropoffs on both sides will lead to way too many big plays.

Not sure I buy all the hype about the defense, but I expect it to be good enough, no matter what.

I tend to agree. When coaches talk about getting more of something, like a pass rush, it is often because there is a problem. Talking about it doesn't solve the problem. The pass rush was better last year than in recent years, but that might be what we are stuck with the same production again this year. I'm not sure they have the right people to improve it.

[wist43]

No Sophomore slump for Matthews? Why so confident Jones will improve? I think if he's as good as last year, that's good enough. If woodson and Harris both slip, then we're in trouble. Those corners have to be able to play press or we're screwed. Dropoffs on both sides will lead to way too many big plays.

Not sure I buy all the hype about the defense, but I expect it to be good enough, no matter what.

I tend to agree. When coaches talk about getting more of something, like a pass rush, it is often because there is a problem. Talking about it doesn't solve the problem. The pass rush was better last year than in recent years, but that might be what we are stuck with the same production again this year. I'm not sure they have the right people to improve it.

Matthews is the real deal, and offenses will scheme for him... since TT didn't add any pass rush via FA or the draft, improvement will necessarily have to come from within.

Jones can be a decent player IMO... but I don't see him as being a world-beater.

Improved pass rush, and improved defense overall is going to have to come from Capers, and game planning... if he gets conservative, ala the Arizona game, we have very little chance of contending... if he gets his head out of his ass and stays aggressive... we have a chance.

[vince]

Regarding Jones, I'm not convinced he'll be the second coming of Matthews this year, and I advocated pretty strongly for a pass rusher this offseason to keep Matthews from gettign double teamed all year.

That said, there is good reason IMO to think Jones will be better, even beyond the fact that he was a rookie who missed most of camp last year. He appears to have taken a pretty good jump in physical maturity over the offseason. He's gained 10 lbs of muscle and and his body seems to be carrying it very well. You could see the speed, athleticism and intelligence with which he played last year, but he lacked strength. There's no question he looks stronger this year. How much better he'll be remains to be seen

[get louder at lambeau]

Not sure I buy all the hype about the defense,

You know you're a Debbie Downer if you mention not buying "all the hype" in a thread predicting a potential decline.

There was hype last year with the 3-4 transition; this year there really isn't much hype to not buy. There are people calling the defense overrated, people complaining that they didn't draft an OLB, and people wondering about a historic pattern of decline in Capers' defenses in year 2. Good thing you're not naive enough to drink all that Kool-Aid, retail. :roll:

[GBRulz]

Am I the only one who doesn't think that Harris's injury really didn't even affect us last year? I've always thought the guy was overrated.

[hoosier]

Am I the only one who doesn't think that Harris's injury really didn't even affect us last year?

Yes.

You didn't happen to catch the second Arizona game, did you?

[SkinBasket]

Am I the only one who doesn't think that Harris's injury really didn't even affect us last year? I've always thought the guy was overrated.

I think he's overrated, but I also think he's still better than 3/4 of the DBs out there.

Hard for me to remember the Arizona game that ended our season and think that his injury didn't affect us. The that memory sparks memories of Big Ben throwing for 500+, and it's hard to imagine that happening with Harris and Charles both healthy.

[retailguy]

Not sure I buy all the hype about the defense,

You know you're a Debbie Downer if you mention not buying "all the hype" in a thread predicting a potential decline.

There was hype last year with the 3-4 transition; this year there really isn't much hype to not buy. There are people calling the defense overrated, people complaining that they didn't draft an OLB, and people wondering about a historic pattern of decline in Capers' defenses in year 2. Good thing you're not naive enough to drink all that Kool-Aid, retail. :roll:

Blah, blah, blah. Same old bullshit.

You really need to learn to read. I was responding to the post above me. Mainly Harrells which was quoted in Bretsky's reply. Harrell saw NO DROPOFF. (of course).

I saw a dropoff.

Slow down, learn to read and THEN make comments... sheesh.

[get louder at lambeau]

Silly me. I missed ALL this hype!- "Slightly better"? "Good, solid"? "Similar, with less glaring mistakes"? CRAZY TALK!

No wonder you aren't buying "all the hype about our defense"! I somehow didn't realize how unrealistically optimistic JH was being in the post you responded to the first time I read it. You're right, I should learn how to read more betterer. Thanks for the advice.

Here's a little friendly advice for you in return. Get some sunlight and excercise. Maybe even listen to the nice lady in the commercials and ask your doctor about Wellbutrin.

[Bretsky]

Am I the only one who doesn't think that Harris's injury really didn't even affect us last year? I've always thought the guy was overrated.


YES....you might be the only one.

[pbmax]

Last year was an aberration... yes the defense was vastly improved from the previous few years, but they didn't play anyone - half their games came against the worst offenses in the league.

When they came up against a good offense, with a good QB... Capers went and hid in the corner hoping to hold them under 50.

I expect the defense to be marginally improved, but their numbers won't be as good; and, I fully expect Capers to continue to be ultra-conservative against good offenses with good QB's.
One thing about last year was not an aberration of the defense. We played very well on offense, esp. the 2nd half of the season) and frequently had a lead. That helps suppress the opposition's run game. As for the pass, it was very similar to 2007. When they got to the QB, it was a success. When they didn't, all bets were off.

[packerbacker1234]

Am I the only one who doesn't think that Harris's injury really didn't even affect us last year? I've always thought the guy was overrated.

Are you the only one who didn't think the injury hurt us last year?

Yes, you are.

Are you the only one who thinks he is overrated?

No, as you can see. I am not sure Harris was ever in the elite status, even during his prime. However, as others have pointed out, even with being overrated in terms of how good he really is, he is still better then a majority of the corners in the league. The one thing he can attribute himself to is being one of the single best press corners in the game. Does he do it as well as an elite corner like Revis? No. But he is still really good at it (or at least, was good at it last year pre injury). He freed Woodson up to be more of a play maker and not necessarily locked on one guy at all times. Woodson is so great all around that it almost feels like a crying shame to have to always have him locked up on the best WR all game.

When harris was around last season, Woodson was rarely locked on the #1 guy. They put harris on him one on one most the game and that freed Woodson up to be all over the field. As good as Williams was last year, I still don't think he was as affective as Harris was.

All you need to do is look at the arizona playoff game. Sure, one big issue was the lack of pressure we got on Warner, but another big issue was the break downs in coverage. Woodson had a "bad" game (well, it's debatable given the push offs fitz got away with), we had williams... and then bam, everyone else seemed to be open all day. Doucet? Remember that guy? Thats our 3rd CB's responsibility. They didn't even have breaston that game right? So it was their 4th wr... and our nickle corner couldn't cover him. I'm just saying it is really obvious that we missed Harris. Given how close that game was, his presence alone may have single handidly changed the complection of the game.

[pbmax]

Am I the only one who doesn't think that Harris's injury really didn't even affect us last year? I've always thought the guy was overrated.

I think he's overrated, but I also think he's still better than 3/4 of the DBs out there.

Hard for me to remember the Arizona game that ended our season and think that his injury didn't affect us. The that memory sparks memories of Big Ben throwing for 500+, and it's hard to imagine that happening with Harris and Charles both healthy.
A lot could be different if for no other reason than luck of injury in the backfield as Bretsky mentioned earlier. I am under no illusions about the pass rush, but Capers clearly pulled in his horns when his backfield was decimated.

I would be OK trusting for the injuries to balance out, but three of the guys the Packers may need to step up (Lee, Underwood and Blackmon) have been injured before. They will need a very solid fourth CB to cover for Harris and allow for the team to play nickel while he regains form.

[packerbacker1234]

Am I the only one who doesn't think that Harris's injury really didn't even affect us last year? I've always thought the guy was overrated.

I think he's overrated, but I also think he's still better than 3/4 of the DBs out there.

Hard for me to remember the Arizona game that ended our season and think that his injury didn't affect us. The that memory sparks memories of Big Ben throwing for 500+, and it's hard to imagine that happening with Harris and Charles both healthy.
A lot could be different if for no other reason than luck of injury in the backfield as Bretsky mentioned earlier. I am under no illusions about the pass rush, but Capers clearly pulled in his horns when his backfield was decimated.

I would be OK trusting for the injuries to balance out, but three of the guys the Packers may need to step up (Lee, Underwood and Blackmon) have been injured before. They will need a very solid fourth CB to cover for Harris and allow for the team to play nickel while he regains form.

Yeah, someone is going to have to step up, unless for a miracle reason Harris pulls off returning in time for game one in game shape.

We all know how well harris takes care of his body, his workouts, and the how hard he is working on returning to his full range of motion. We've seen the videos, and there are not many defensive players out there I can respect as much as I do harris for what he does for this team and how he maintains himself off the field.

[retailguy]

Silly me. I missed ALL this hype!- "Slightly better"? "Good, solid"? "Similar, with less glaring mistakes"? CRAZY TALK!

No wonder you aren't buying "all the hype about our defense"! I somehow didn't realize how unrealistically optimistic JH was being in the post you responded to the first time I read it. You're right, I should learn how to read more betterer. Thanks for the advice.

Here's a little friendly advice for you in return. Get some sunlight and excercise. Maybe even listen to the nice lady in the commercials and ask your doctor about Wellbutrin.

You're biggest problem? You don't even know you're an idiot. Good grief, learn to read.

[retailguy]

Am I the only one who doesn't think that Harris's injury really didn't even affect us last year? I've always thought the guy was overrated.


YES....you might be the only one.

What happens at Harris' position is a big key to what this defense winds up being.

[wist43]

Last year was an aberration... yes the defense was vastly improved from the previous few years, but they didn't play anyone - half their games came against the worst offenses in the league.

When they came up against a good offense, with a good QB... Capers went and hid in the corner hoping to hold them under 50.

I expect the defense to be marginally improved, but their numbers won't be as good; and, I fully expect Capers to continue to be ultra-conservative against good offenses with good QB's.
One thing about last year was not an aberration of the defense. We played very well on offense, esp. the 2nd half of the season) and frequently had a lead. That helps suppress the opposition's run game. As for the pass, it was very similar to 2007. When they got to the QB, it was a success. When they didn't, all bets were off.

I agree with all of that... but, I do think they were pretty solid against the run.

Pass rush is everything... last year our pass rush consisted of Clay Matthew and Dom Capers. Clay was pretty consistent; Dom sometimes showed up, and sometimes he didn't. When he put together aggressive and well thought out game plans, the defense was tough; when he scrabbled up a call sheet consisting of static fronts and 4 man rushes, the defense got shredded.

Even with TT's anemic offseason, at least in terms of helping the pass rush, I think we could make some noise, if Dom grew a pair.

[RashanGary]

Raji, Matthews and Jones all stand to improve with strength conditioning and experience. I think that's a good, common sense thought.

And we missed Harris for half of the season (the half that we won games). I'm sure having him is better than not having him.

And if we can get our back 7 on the same page, maybe Dom can do what Wist is calling for.

[Joemailman]

Hard to predict how everything will shake out on defense. However, I do think there are more guys likely to be better than there are guys likely to be worse. If Al declines, the big question is whether they have someone (Lee, Underwood, Blackmon) to adequately fill the nickel back role. They didn't last year, but then they didn't have Blackmon and Lee due to injuries. If the Packers end up at sometime this season with Jarrett Bush at nickel, it will be fair to say that TT did not do his job. I'm reasonably confident that won't happen though.

[get louder at lambeau]

Silly me. I missed ALL this hype!- "Slightly better"? "Good, solid"? "Similar, with less glaring mistakes"? CRAZY TALK!

No wonder you aren't buying "all the hype about our defense"! I somehow didn't realize how unrealistically optimistic JH was being in the post you responded to the first time I read it. You're right, I should learn how to read more betterer. Thanks for the advice.

Here's a little friendly advice for you in return. Get some sunlight and excercise. Maybe even listen to the nice lady in the commercials and ask your doctor about Wellbutrin.

You're biggest problem? You don't even know you're an idiot. Good grief, learn to read.

Wow, ya got me there. Twice in a row with "learn to read"! Ouch. Burn. :rs:

[The Leaper]

Dom also might just be unlucky and has always seemed to face a tougher array of offensive teams in his second seasons. Let's face it...Green Bay played a pussy schedule last year. The defense was not nearly as good as their stats suggested. I fully expect this defense to come back to earth a little this year. We ain't getting all the turnovers we did last year.

Still...a tougher schedule and some adversity in the regular season is probably good for this team. Make the playoffs, and it's anyone's title to win.

[mraynrand]

Silly me. I missed ALL this hype!- "Slightly better"? "Good, solid"? "Similar, with less glaring mistakes"? CRAZY TALK!

No wonder you aren't buying "all the hype about our defense"! I somehow didn't realize how unrealistically optimistic JH was being in the post you responded to the first time I read it. You're right, I should learn how to read more betterer. Thanks for the advice.

Here's a little friendly advice for you in return. Get some sunlight and excercise. Maybe even listen to the nice lady in the commercials and ask your doctor about Wellbutrin.

You're biggest problem? You don't even know you're an idiot. Good grief, learn to read.

Wow, ya got me there. Twice in a row with "learn to read"! Ouch. Burn. :rs:

Wayne Campbell: Am I supposed to be a man, am I supposed to say it's okay, I don't mind? I don't mind. Well, I mind! I mind big-time! And you know what the worst part is? I NEVER LEARNED TO READ!
Cassandra: Is that true?
Wayne Campbell: Yes, everything except the reading part.

[get louder at lambeau]

Silly me. I missed ALL this hype!- "Slightly better"? "Good, solid"? "Similar, with less glaring mistakes"? CRAZY TALK!

No wonder you aren't buying "all the hype about our defense"! I somehow didn't realize how unrealistically optimistic JH was being in the post you responded to the first time I read it. You're right, I should learn how to read more betterer. Thanks for the advice.

Here's a little friendly advice for you in return. Get some sunlight and excercise. Maybe even listen to the nice lady in the commercials and ask your doctor about Wellbutrin.

You're biggest problem? You don't even know you're an idiot. Good grief, learn to read.

Wow, ya got me there. Twice in a row with "learn to read"! Ouch. Burn. :rs:

Wayne Campbell: Am I supposed to be a man, am I supposed to say it's okay, I don't mind? I don't mind. Well, I mind! I mind big-time! And you know what the worst part is? I NEVER LEARNED TO READ!
Cassandra: Is that true?
Wayne Campbell: Yes, everything except the reading part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u9UWw5PPYQ&feature=related

[Tony Oday]

I keep hearing that we are going to be playing such a tougher schedule so lets break it down:

1 Sun Sep 12, 2010 @Eagles 4:15 PM: New QB, RB and really this team will need tome to Gel if it even can

2 Sun Sep 19, 2010 Bills 1:00 PM The Bills, do they even suit up WR anymore?

3 Mon Sep 27, 2010 @Bears 8:30 PM ET Cutler is not that great with a terrible O line and second string WR.

4 Sun Oct 3, 2010 Lions 1:00 PM ET They are the Lions...they will be better but we have Optimus Prime (Woodson) and he always beats Megatron (CJ) in the end :)

5 Sun Oct 10, 2010 @Redskins 1:00 PM ET A bunch of older players with McNabb as a QB, if he is still healthy...big if...they will be better than last year

6 Sun Oct 17, 2010 Dolphins 1:00 PM ET Brandon Marshall is the WR threat but this is a running team

7 Sun Oct 24, 2010 Vikings 8:20 PM ET With Favre at top tilt they have a great offense, without him or a lesser Favre this team has a RB that like to fumble

8 Sun Oct 31, 2010 @Jets 1:00 PM ET The Jets are legit and its in NY this is a test.
9 Sun Nov 7, 2010 Cowboys 8:20 PM ET Good Offense but are they better than last year?
10 --- BYE 7 WEEK ---
11 Sun Nov 21, 2010 @Vikings 1:00 PM ET ditto

12 Sun Nov 28, 2010 @Falcons 1:00 PM ET Good team but by this time Turner will be wearing down

13 Sun Dec 5, 2010 49ers 1:00 PM ET 9ers have a decent offense but it hinges on the QB

14 Sun Dec 12, 2010 @Lions 1:00 PM ET ditto

15 Sun Dec 19, 2010 @Patriots 8:20 PM ET Always potent but Brady and Moss have to click and Wes is what makes this offense tick

16 Sun Dec 26, 2010 Giants 4:15 PM ET Eli...bleh...

17 Sun Jan 2, 2011 Bears 1:00 PM ET Ditto


So what is the big difference this year? No AZ, No N.O., No SD, No IND, No Hou, No AFC north...I think we face about the same this year.

Keys this year:
C Wood to play a step below last year. If he can play like last year well save him a spot in the Hall cause last year was SICK!

Harris and Tramon to cover 1 and 3 WR if this can happen WOW we can really put a hurt on teams

CMIII to not have a sophmore slump

Jones dont mess up too bad

Raji time to get some preasure

Hawk...PLEASE Hawk play with some abandon!

Picket and the rotation on the DL eat space and stop the run

Collins and TBD SS please play good :)

Our defense does NOT need to be the Bears, Ravens or Steelers of old. They need to only give up 3 TDs a game and we should win every game.

[Gunakor]

I am not sure Harris was ever in the elite status.

A lot of elite NFL WR's thought he was.

In his prime, when he was healthy, no QB dared throw at him. Note that the oppositions #1 WR's were effectively taken out of the game when they played GB. Rarely topping 50 yards, and even more rarely scoring TD's. I think it may have been 2005, or 2006, or one of the seasons right around then, when Harris gave up 100 yards to only ONE player all season, that being Roy Williams in a game @ Detroit. Most of that yardage came on a single play, a play that resulted in the only TD Harris gave up on the entire season. And that play could at least in part be blamed on Marquand Manuel for being so far out of position to offer any help over the top.

Harris was never a ballhawk. He wasn't the guy to count on if you badly needed a turnover. But he can cover you like a blanket. He's a ferocious tackler. In his prime, I don't know if there's more than a handful of better man to man corners in the history of the league.

Just ask the guys he was covering.

[mraynrand]

Silly me. I missed ALL this hype!- "Slightly better"? "Good, solid"? "Similar, with less glaring mistakes"? CRAZY TALK!

No wonder you aren't buying "all the hype about our defense"! I somehow didn't realize how unrealistically optimistic JH was being in the post you responded to the first time I read it. You're right, I should learn how to read more betterer. Thanks for the advice.

Here's a little friendly advice for you in return. Get some sunlight and excercise. Maybe even listen to the nice lady in the commercials and ask your doctor about Wellbutrin.

You're biggest problem? You don't even know you're an idiot. Good grief, learn to read.

Wow, ya got me there. Twice in a row with "learn to read"! Ouch. Burn. :rs:

Wayne Campbell: Am I supposed to be a man, am I supposed to say it's okay, I don't mind? I don't mind. Well, I mind! I mind big-time! And you know what the worst part is? I NEVER LEARNED TO READ!
Cassandra: Is that true?
Wayne Campbell: Yes, everything except the reading part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u9UWw5PPYQ&feature=related

LOL. This thread needs to be at least ... 3 times bigger!

[vince]

I think we face about the same this year.

Keys this year:
C Wood to play a step below last year. If he can play like last year well save him a spot in the Hall cause last year was SICK!

Harris and Tramon to cover 1 and 3 WR if this can happen WOW we can really put a hurt on teams

CMIII to not have a sophmore slump

Jones dont mess up too bad

Raji time to get some preasure

Hawk...PLEASE Hawk play with some abandon!

Picket and the rotation on the DL eat space and stop the run

Collins and TBD SS please play good :)

Our defense does NOT need to be the Bears, Ravens or Steelers of old. They need to only give up 3 TDs a game and we should win every game.
I think the ability to pressure the QB will impact the success of the individuals in the defensive backfield as much or more than who's playing nickelback and/or whether Harris is 95% or 90% healthy for example. Harris has never relied on speed to be effective anyway.

And the pressure will have to come from someone besides Matthews, or he'll just be double teamed and neutralized. They may well move Matthews around more this year to offset that, but forcing offenses to be concerned about others is the best bet IMO.

I'm not sure how much you can count on Raji or any of the d-linemen to bring a ton of added pressure because of the difficulty in finding space to penetrate inside and the fact that their responsibility in Capers' scheme is often to occupy blockers to free up backers/blitzers rather than getting to the QB themselves. Maybe that'll change this year, but that's always been a pretty basic tenet of Capers'.

So it seems to me you're looking predominantly at Jones and the blitz schemes as the keys to getting to the QB. If they can do so, that'll help Matthews and the DB's as much or more than Matthews and the DB's can help themselves.

[Fred's Slacks]

I am not sure Harris was ever in the elite status.

A lot of elite NFL WR's thought he was.

In his prime, when he was healthy, no QB dared throw at him. Note that the oppositions #1 WR's were effectively taken out of the game when they played GB. Rarely topping 50 yards, and even more rarely scoring TD's. I think it may have been 2005, or 2006, or one of the seasons right around then, when Harris gave up 100 yards to only ONE player all season, that being Roy Williams in a game @ Detroit. Most of that yardage came on a single play, a play that resulted in the only TD Harris gave up on the entire season. And that play could at least in part be blamed on Marquand Manuel for being so far out of position to offer any help over the top.

Harris was never a ballhawk. He wasn't the guy to count on if you badly needed a turnover. But he can cover you like a blanket. He's a ferocious tackler. In his prime, I don't know if there's more than a handful of better man to man corners in the history of the league.

Just ask the guys he was covering.

Good points. I never understood why when Harris shut everyone down he was overrated because he didn't get any picks but now that Revis does it, he's the greatest ever?

[pbmax]

Dom also might just be unlucky and has always seemed to face a tougher array of offensive teams in his second seasons. Let's face it...Green Bay played a pussy schedule last year. The defense was not nearly as good as their stats suggested. I fully expect this defense to come back to earth a little this year. We ain't getting all the turnovers we did last year.

Still...a tougher schedule and some adversity in the regular season is probably good for this team. Make the playoffs, and it's anyone's title to win.
The other side to that, that a better defense in Year 1 under Capers leads to a better record for the team overall. Then Year 2, you face a better schedule (in theory).

[swede]

4 Sun Oct 3, 2010 Lions 1:00 PM ET They are the Lions...they will be better but we have Optimus Prime (Woodson) and he always beats Megatron (CJ) in the end :)



I read your entire post with interest, but your Transformer reference reminded me of something that I've never been able to confirm with anyone else. In the 2nd movie there is an epic battle scene near the pyramids. At one point you see the Shia LaBouf character from below while an evil Transformer is clambering over some sort of obstacle above him. From below you can see these huge metal balls swinging from chains under the Transformer's crotch. I laughed out loud and I don't know if anyone else in the theater noticed. No one in my group noticed.

I'm sorry. Big metal balls on a Transformer made me laugh.

we now return to Packer programming.

[mraynrand]

I'm sorry. Big metal balls on a Transformer made me laugh

Even more horrifying is what they transformed into...

[hoosier]

Hard to predict how everything will shake out on defense. However, I do think there are more guys likely to be better than there are guys likely to be worse. If Al declines, the big question is whether they have someone (Lee, Underwood, Blackmon) to adequately fill the nickel back role. They didn't last year, but then they didn't have Blackmon and Lee due to injuries. If the Packers end up at sometime this season with Jarrett Bush at nickel, it will be fair to say that TT did not do his job. I'm reasonably confident that won't happen though.

Blackmon got moved to safety so they're probably no longer considering him as an option for nickle. It seems to me that, based on that switch, they must either be confident that Underwood or Bell will be ready to play at a decent level (hard to imagine having a great deal of confidence in Lee at this point given his recent history) or they think more of Bush than most Packer fans do. Does anyone know if Underwood was cleared for the May OTA? If he was, then the fact that Bush was ahead of him is just a little bit concerning.

[vince]

I don't think you can read anything whatsoever into the fact that Bush was reported to be "starting" in the OTA's. I think they do that in May to keep the young guy hungry as much as anything.

[Pugger]

Pat Lee was drafted in the second round so there must be some talent there. His issue is staying healthy. I'm eager to see what he has this year and if he can stay on the field.

[retailguy]

I don't think you can read anything whatsoever into the fact that Bush was reported to be "starting" in the OTA's. I think they do that in May to keep the young guy hungry as much as anything.

I still remember the $1m signing bonus a couple years back. That, right there, told me that the team likes Bush a whole lot more than I do.

[Tarlam!]

Further to Gunnies points on Harris, just ask Chuck what he thinks of having Harris on the other side. A big reason for Chuck's successes at GB are because QB are forced to choose one of the two evils. In Oakland, QBs just threw away from Woodson and kept him on an island.

Woodsons appreciation for Harris is well documented.

[Tony Oday]

4 Sun Oct 3, 2010 Lions 1:00 PM ET They are the Lions...they will be better but we have Optimus Prime (Woodson) and he always beats Megatron (CJ) in the end :)



I read your entire post with interest, but your Transformer reference reminded me of something that I've never been able to confirm with anyone else. In the 2nd movie there is an epic battle scene near the pyramids. At one point you see the Shia LaBouf character from below while an evil Transformer is clambering over some sort of obstacle above him. From below you can see these huge metal balls swinging from chains under the Transformer's crotch. I laughed out loud and I don't know if anyone else in the theater noticed. No one in my group noticed.

I'm sorry. Big metal balls on a Transformer made me laugh.

we now return to Packer programming.

lol Yeah that is funny no idea why they had it in the movie but hell it was funny. I also like how Megan Fox's white pants NEVER got dirty! WTH

[run pMc]

Crazy Martz is the OC for a desperate CHI team, DET has really improved this offseason, and Grandpa Favre will be back, so all those division games will be tough fights.

I think the D will take a small step backwards, primarily due to the schedule, but I still think they will be good. Injuries will have a lot to say about that, as well as the development of the youngsters.

Pre-injury, Harris was a borderline-elite CB...not a burner but physical and great in press/man coverage. Given his age and injury, I'm not sure he will be able to return to that form. I do think he can still play in Capers' scheme.
Woodson and Harris need to stay healthy and keep drinking from the fountain of youth. I'm hoping for good things and development from Williams, Underwood, and Lee. I don't know how much they will be able to give the team. If Burnett can grasp things quickly and push Bigby that will help at the S.

To me the D line are mostly just gap pluggers, so if they do their job I think they are fine there. Capers will continue to focus on stopping the run. Getting a pass rush will help the secondary, but which LBs (besides Matthews) can bring it? Barnett having a full year removed from ACL might help...I think he's better than Hawk at rushing from the inside. I'm encouraged by Jones but not on the bandwagon yet. I'm not sold on Poppinga, Chillar, or Bishop either.

I would have liked to see more than some street guys brought in at the OLB, but the coaches know way more than a casual observer...so we'll see.

Really, it's hard to be unhappy if you get a top 10 defense to go with a top 10 offense.

[wist43]

Crazy Martz is the OC for a desperate CHI team, DET has really improved this offseason, and Grandpa Favre will be back, so all those division games will be tough fights.

I think the D will take a small step backwards, primarily due to the schedule, but I still think they will be good. Injuries will have a lot to say about that, as well as the development of the youngsters.

Pre-injury, Harris was a borderline-elite CB...not a burner but physical and great in press/man coverage. Given his age and injury, I'm not sure he will be able to return to that form. I do think he can still play in Capers' scheme.
Woodson and Harris need to stay healthy and keep drinking from the fountain of youth. I'm hoping for good things and development from Williams, Underwood, and Lee. I don't know how much they will be able to give the team. If Burnett can grasp things quickly and push Bigby that will help at the S.

To me the D line are mostly just gap pluggers, so if they do their job I think they are fine there. Capers will continue to focus on stopping the run. Getting a pass rush will help the secondary, but which LBs (besides Matthews) can bring it? Barnett having a full year removed from ACL might help...I think he's better than Hawk at rushing from the inside. I'm encouraged by Jones but not on the bandwagon yet. I'm not sold on Poppinga, Chillar, or Bishop either.

I would have liked to see more than some street guys brought in at the OLB, but the coaches know way more than a casual observer...so we'll see.

Really, it's hard to be unhappy if you get a top 10 defense to go with a top 10 offense.

I agree... although I'm not sold they're a top 10 D. Just depends on what Dom does with it.

TT didn't bring in any corners... so he's rolling the dice on Lee. I like Underwood and hope he would see a lot of playing time over Bush. Even if Bush is a better player at this point, he doesn't have the upside that Underwood does, so I'd give Underwood every opportunity to get on the field as the 4th corner.

[packerbacker1234]

Oh I do think Harris was indeed great - and yeah it is odd that now that Revis is doing what Harris did that he is the best thing out there, and harris was not.

Thing is, I think it's just the age difference. Harris in 2005/2006 or whatever was much older than Revis is now. Now, harris was good before that, and has been pretty good after, but those seasons are when he made is mark. That is when Ocho Cinco had his corner check list and he said all season, the best CB he had ever seen was Harris. Thats when his name really started getting out there. From that point on, almost every #1 WR was saying how they hated to play GB because Harris took them out of the game. It remained that way, pretty much, until TO had a hell of game against him a couple years ago in dallas. After that, he did appear to lose a step. Of course, being an "elite" corner, losing a step doesn't mean a whole lot. Especially since we added Woodson to the other side.

Knowing how harris works so hard to keep his body intact and such, I do expect him to return and play to form. I am not sure harris knows how to play the game any other way. Be agressive at the line, jam the WR, and shut him down.

I think why people are more impressed with Revis is due to his age, and the fact he is shutting guys down in a new era, where WR's are virtually not allowed to be touched.

[get louder at lambeau]

I think why people are more impressed with Revis is due to his age, and the fact he is shutting guys down in a new era, where WR's are virtually not allowed to be touched.

Playing in the largest NFL market instead of the smallest probably helps a little too.

[packerbacker1234]

I think why people are more impressed with Revis is due to his age, and the fact he is shutting guys down in a new era, where WR's are virtually not allowed to be touched.

Playing in the largest NFL market instead of the smallest probably helps a little too.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/rumors/post/Dallas-most-popular-NFL-team-Jags-least?urn=nfl,47568

Packers are like, the 4th most popular franchise in the entire country. AKA, the United States is our market. Were also regularily at the top of merchandise sales among all NFL teams. Oh, and almost any prime time game featuring the packers ends up being right at the top most watched and rated games of the season

AKA: They can have their market, we have the country.

[get louder at lambeau]

I think why people are more impressed with Revis is due to his age, and the fact he is shutting guys down in a new era, where WR's are virtually not allowed to be touched.

Playing in the largest NFL market instead of the smallest probably helps a little too.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/rumors/post/Dallas-most-popular-NFL-team-Jags-least?urn=nfl,47568

Packers are like, the 4th most popular franchise in the entire country. AKA, the United States is our market. Were also regularily at the top of merchandise sales among all NFL teams. Oh, and almost any prime time game featuring the packers ends up being right at the top most watched and rated games of the season

AKA: They can have their market, we have the country.

I'm well aware of the popularity of the franchise, but when Revis shuts someone down, it's in the New York Times. Harris does it, it's reported in the Green Bay Press Gazette, with the headline being about Brent Faver.

[packerbacker1234]

I think why people are more impressed with Revis is due to his age, and the fact he is shutting guys down in a new era, where WR's are virtually not allowed to be touched.

Playing in the largest NFL market instead of the smallest probably helps a little too.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/rumors/post/Dallas-most-popular-NFL-team-Jags-least?urn=nfl,47568

Packers are like, the 4th most popular franchise in the entire country. AKA, the United States is our market. Were also regularily at the top of merchandise sales among all NFL teams. Oh, and almost any prime time game featuring the packers ends up being right at the top most watched and rated games of the season

AKA: They can have their market, we have the country.

I'm well aware of the popularity of the franchise, but when Revis shuts someone down, it's in the New York Times. Harris does it, it's reported in the Green Bay Press Gazette, with the headline being about Brent Faver.

We have increasingly gotten coverage though on the national stage - ESPN, NFL Network, etc. They like to talk about whats popular. Yankees/Red Sox gets so much coverage there because they are popular. Green Bay coverage has slowly been increasing over the years. Sure, no NY Times post, but there may be an ESPN article about it. Would say that coverage is about equals out.

AR certaintly has gotten a lot of coverage the last 2 seasons, but that may or may not be attributed to the guy who played before him.

[RashanGary]

AR is this years #1 fantasy QB according to just about everyone. That means people think he's going to put up the best numbers of any QB in the league. If these people have any clue what they're talking about, AR has to be a front runner for the MVP when those odds come out too.

I'd say AR is earning his respect.

[RashanGary]

When Bert was here, we were told how he made Driver what he is, how he made every receiver he ever played with what they were.

In steps first year AR and Driver is just as good. Jennings gets better, Grant stays the same, and a TE emerges that is more effective than any one Brett has played with.

Bert goes to the Vikings and Peterson goes from one of the greatest players in the NFL at any position, to a goat. His numbers go down, his fumbles go up. Barrian isn't any better with Favre than he was with Groosman.


If AR is the #1 fantasy QB, if he wins an MVP, none of that has anything to do with Brett Favre. That has to do with Aaron Rodgers being a great player. The same thing happens to every player Brett plays with. Driver is so/so, but has Brett throwing to him. Peterson goes from a probably HOF running back to the goat of the season when Brett is the one who choked it away. Any team Brett's on, any team associated with him everythign they do well is because of Brett. Everything Brett does wrong is because of them. With some people in GB, Brett has to be the most overrated player to ever play in Green Bay.

[Tony Oday]

When Bert was here, we were told how he made Driver what he is, how he made every receiver he ever played with what they were.

In steps first year AR and Driver is just as good. Jennings gets better, Grant stays the same, and a TE emerges that is more effective than any one Brett has played with.

Bert goes to the Vikings and Peterson goes from one of the greatest players in the NFL at any position, to a goat. His numbers go down, his fumbles go up. Barrian isn't any better with Favre than he was with Groosman.


If AR is the #1 fantasy QB, if he wins an MVP, none of that has anything to do with Brett Favre. That has to do with Aaron Rodgers being a great player. The same thing happens to every player Brett plays with. Driver is so/so, but has Brett throwing to him. Peterson goes from a probably HOF running back to the goat of the season when Brett is the one who choked it away. Any team Brett's on, any team associated with him everythign they do well is because of Brett. Everything Brett does wrong is because of them. With some people in GB, Brett has to be the most overrated player to ever play in Green Bay.

no Favre apologist but Rice is an emerging star

[get louder at lambeau]

When Bert was here, we were told how he made Driver what he is, how he made every receiver he ever played with what they were.

In steps first year AR and Driver is just as good. Jennings gets better, Grant stays the same, and a TE emerges that is more effective than any one Brett has played with.

Bert goes to the Vikings and Peterson goes from one of the greatest players in the NFL at any position, to a goat. His numbers go down, his fumbles go up. Barrian isn't any better with Favre than he was with Groosman.


If AR is the #1 fantasy QB, if he wins an MVP, none of that has anything to do with Brett Favre. That has to do with Aaron Rodgers being a great player. The same thing happens to every player Brett plays with. Driver is so/so, but has Brett throwing to him. Peterson goes from a probably HOF running back to the goat of the season when Brett is the one who choked it away. Any team Brett's on, any team associated with him everythign they do well is because of Brett. Everything Brett does wrong is because of them. With some people in GB, Brett has to be the most overrated player to ever play in Green Bay.

no Favre apologist but Rice is an emerging star

I think you missed JH's point- that it's because of Rice, not Favre, just like Driver's emergence was because of Driver, not Favre.

[packerbacker1234]

When Bert was here, we were told how he made Driver what he is, how he made every receiver he ever played with what they were.

In steps first year AR and Driver is just as good. Jennings gets better, Grant stays the same, and a TE emerges that is more effective than any one Brett has played with.

Bert goes to the Vikings and Peterson goes from one of the greatest players in the NFL at any position, to a goat. His numbers go down, his fumbles go up. Barrian isn't any better with Favre than he was with Groosman.


If AR is the #1 fantasy QB, if he wins an MVP, none of that has anything to do with Brett Favre. That has to do with Aaron Rodgers being a great player. The same thing happens to every player Brett plays with. Driver is so/so, but has Brett throwing to him. Peterson goes from a probably HOF running back to the goat of the season when Brett is the one who choked it away. Any team Brett's on, any team associated with him everythign they do well is because of Brett. Everything Brett does wrong is because of them. With some people in GB, Brett has to be the most overrated player to ever play in Green Bay.

No offense intended but...

http://www.nfl.com/players/adrianpeterson/profile?id=PET260705

His fumbles actually went down. He had 50 less carries (understandable, they passed the ball more) , 8 more TD runs, 1300+ yards, and 4.4 yards per carry.

Adrian Peterson has been in the league 3 seasons, and last year was a damn good season for any RB. Did anyone really think he was going to have close to 1800 yards again just because he had a QB who could throw the ball? ALl they did the year before was hand to him on every down. Ask LT what that is like - his best years were when he got the ball all the time, and it wore him down. Keep in mind, AP also increased his catches by 22 and passing yards by 300, which all then makes up for any loss in rushing yards.

So, AP went to being a goat? really? Last I checked, he was still one of the best players in the NFL last season. He can't help it that his QB put up MVP numbers so his didn't look as impressive, even though they really were impressive still. If grant had those numbers, would we even be talking about wanting another RB ever?

[Pugger]

Peterson is one of the best RBs to come around but Grant isn't exactly chopped liver either. His last stat is the best. :wink:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=RUSHING&conference=null&season=2009&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=RUSHING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

[RashanGary]

No offense intended but...

http://www.nfl.com/players/adrianpeterson/profile?id=PET260705

His fumbles actually went down. He had 50 less carries (understandable, they passed the ball more) , 8 more TD runs, 1300+ yards, and 4.4 yards per carry.

Adrian Peterson has been in the league 3 seasons, and last year was a damn good season for any RB. Did anyone really think he was going to have close to 1800 yards again just because he had a QB who could throw the ball? ALl they did the year before was hand to him on every down. Ask LT what that is like - his best years were when he got the ball all the time, and it wore him down. Keep in mind, AP also increased his catches by 22 and passing yards by 300, which all then makes up for any loss in rushing yards.

So, AP went to being a goat? really? Last I checked, he was still one of the best players in the NFL last season. He can't help it that his QB put up MVP numbers so his didn't look as impressive, even though they really were impressive still. If grant had those numbers, would we even be talking about wanting another RB ever?

None taken. Go to footballsfuture.com Vikign board. There are more posts about Peterson's fumbles costing the game than Favre's interceptions. There are jokes on ESPN about Peterson "dropping" Favre's grandchild the way he dropped the ball in the playoff games where Favre is getting a free pass.

You've done nothing to refute my point. Players who were good with Favre are just as good or better before or after him (see Sharpe, Kieth Jackson, Rison, Donald Driver, Greg Jennings, Adrian Peterson, Ryan Grant, Coles, Cotchery). And whenever Favre retires, Rice will still be great. . .

The whole fantasy that many Packer fans had about Favre is just not supported by the facts.

He was fortunate to be on a team with ownership that from the top down, has put people in jobs that they can succeed at and has not meddled with football decisions. Because of that, they've had really good GM's that have veen able to do their jobs (Wolf, Thompson). They'll be good for many years after Brett just as they were good with him.

Favre's durability and accountability were both amazing. Those are individual accomplishments that can't be knocked. But to credit him for much of the Packers (or Vikings for that matter) success on offense, that's just not realistic. He was very lucky, the teams he was blessed to play on and has taken way more credit away from great players than one work-lunch post can bring light to.

[Joemailman]

:jack: Doesn't the Favre talk belong in the Favre thread?



Hard to predict how everything will shake out on defense. However, I do think there are more guys likely to be better than there are guys likely to be worse. If Al declines, the big question is whether they have someone (Lee, Underwood, Blackmon) to adequately fill the nickel back role. They didn't last year, but then they didn't have Blackmon and Lee due to injuries. If the Packers end up at sometime this season with Jarrett Bush at nickel, it will be fair to say that TT did not do his job. I'm reasonably confident that won't happen though.

Blackmon got moved to safety so they're probably no longer considering him as an option for nickle. It seems to me that, based on that switch, they must either be confident that Underwood or Bell will be ready to play at a decent level (hard to imagine having a great deal of confidence in Lee at this point given his recent history) or they think more of Bush than most Packer fans do. Does anyone know if Underwood was cleared for the May OTA? If he was, then the fact that Bush was ahead of him is just a little bit concerning.

I think the move of Blackmon to safety does mean that they believe that Lee, Underwood or Bell could handle nickel. However, Blackmon played well at nickel in 2008 when Harris was hurt. I think they would move him there if they feel they need to. the nickel position is more important that the #4 Safety position.

[HarveyWallbangers]

His fumbles actually went down. He had 50 less carries (understandable, they passed the ball more) , 8 more TD runs, 1300+ yards, and 4.4 yards per carry.

Just to get the facts out there (I don't really care enough about the argument being made):

His fumble rate remained steady. His total fumbles were down from the year before, but as you stated he had less carries. He's consistently fumbled about every 50 touches since he got into the league.

His TD runs were more of the short yardage variety--mainly because the Vikings had a competent QB who got them in the redzone more.

His 4.4 yards/carry was by far a career low. His career yards/carry was 5.2 before last year.

I don't think there's a Viking fan out there who doesn't think he had a poor year compared to his first two years. Minus the TDs, his rushing numbers were eerily similar to Ryan Grant--and not Adrian Peterson from his first two years. Before last year, AP was a God in Vikings land. After last season, there is a small clamoring to trade him while his value is still high.

[RashanGary]

Brad Childeress on how teams approached the Vikings 2009 offense, "Somewhere, you have to take something (away). Generally with us, at least from what I’ve seen, they’re going to approach it from the standpoint of trying to get an eighth guy in the box."


Teams geared up to stop Peterson. I'd love to see Rodgers with Peterson. Rodgers already puts up better numbers tahn FAvre with a lesser Ol and RB. I'd love to see Rodgers with the best RB adn the Vikigns OL. Teams gear up to stop Rodgers 1st with the Packers. We rarely, if ever, see 8 in the box.

[sharpe1027]

Brad Childeress on how teams approached the Vikings 2009 offense, "Somewhere, you have to take something (away). Generally with us, at least from what I’ve seen, they’re going to approach it from the standpoint of trying to get an eighth guy in the box."

Teams geared up to stop Peterson. I'd love to see Rodgers with Peterson. Rodgers already puts up better numbers tahn FAvre with a lesser Ol and RB. I'd love to see Rodgers with the best RB adn the Vikigns OL. Teams gear up to stop Rodgers 1st with the Packers. We rarely, if ever, see 8 in the box.

True, but to play devils-advocate, Rodgers has better receiving threats and (IMO) is in an offense that tends to produce bigger numbers.

[RashanGary]

Rice is going to be a superstar for many years. Finley is going to be great, but last year Shiancoe was better. Barrian is a good player. Harvin is a good player.

Rice > Jennings IMO
Driver > Barrian IMO
Harvin > Jones IMO
Shiancoe last year > super young Finley although Finley has flashed signs of near future greatness.


I don't think the weapons were all that different. Throw Peterson and a better OL and it's a no brainer who has a better supporting cast. Rodgers is in a really good situation, no doubt. They're comparable situations really. But Peterson is the best player on either team and tips it largely in the Vikings favor.

To me, the way Rodgers played the 2nd half of the season, he's our big difference maker the way Peterson is theirs.

[Tony Oday]

Rice is going to be a superstar for many years. Finley is going to be great, but last year Shiancoe was better. Barrian is a good player. Harvin is a good player.

Rice > Jennings IMO
Driver > Barrian IMO
Harvin > Jones IMO
Shiancoe last year > super young Finley although Finley has flashed signs of near future greatness.


I don't think the weapons were all that different. Throw Peterson and a better OL and it's a no brainer who has a better supporting cast. Rodgers is in a really good situation, no doubt. They're comparable situations really. But Peterson is the best player on either team and tips it largely in the Vikings favor.

To me, the way Rodgers played the 2nd half of the season, he's our big difference maker the way Peterson is theirs.

I have always said WR should be judged as pairs because who knows who is getting doubled at what time. In that I think its a wash. OLines are actually pretty similar once ours solidified. AP has game breaking but fumbles. Grant wont win the game on a three broken tackle run but gets the 4 yards and keeps the ball. Shianco is no were NEAR Finley at all. That isnt even close to a comparison. Shianco is a big Red Zone Threat and the great old one loves Tightends :) hehe had too! Finley is by far a supperior TE.

I agree with the last statement about if AP tilts then they win and if AR gets a lead we win. This season if AR can get a lead I can see Favre crumble.

[sharpe1027]

I'm not sure I'd put the entire MN receiving core above GBs, but another factor is MN's offensive philosophy. If Rodgers was at MN with that team and philosophy, maybe he would not have thrown the ball down the field as much as he did in GB. MN likes to do a lot of dink and dunk passes.

[packerbacker1234]

No offense intended but...

http://www.nfl.com/players/adrianpeterson/profile?id=PET260705

His fumbles actually went down. He had 50 less carries (understandable, they passed the ball more) , 8 more TD runs, 1300+ yards, and 4.4 yards per carry.

Adrian Peterson has been in the league 3 seasons, and last year was a damn good season for any RB. Did anyone really think he was going to have close to 1800 yards again just because he had a QB who could throw the ball? ALl they did the year before was hand to him on every down. Ask LT what that is like - his best years were when he got the ball all the time, and it wore him down. Keep in mind, AP also increased his catches by 22 and passing yards by 300, which all then makes up for any loss in rushing yards.

So, AP went to being a goat? really? Last I checked, he was still one of the best players in the NFL last season. He can't help it that his QB put up MVP numbers so his didn't look as impressive, even though they really were impressive still. If grant had those numbers, would we even be talking about wanting another RB ever?

None taken. Go to footballsfuture.com Vikign board. There are more posts about Peterson's fumbles costing the game than Favre's interceptions. There are jokes on ESPN about Peterson "dropping" Favre's grandchild the way he dropped the ball in the playoff games where Favre is getting a free pass.

You've done nothing to refute my point. Players who were good with Favre are just as good or better before or after him (see Sharpe, Kieth Jackson, Rison, Donald Driver, Greg Jennings, Adrian Peterson, Ryan Grant, Coles, Cotchery). And whenever Favre retires, Rice will still be great. . .

The whole fantasy that many Packer fans had about Favre is just not supported by the facts.

He was fortunate to be on a team with ownership that from the top down, has put people in jobs that they can succeed at and has not meddled with football decisions. Because of that, they've had really good GM's that have veen able to do their jobs (Wolf, Thompson). They'll be good for many years after Brett just as they were good with him.

Favre's durability and accountability were both amazing. Those are individual accomplishments that can't be knocked. But to credit him for much of the Packers (or Vikings for that matter) success on offense, that's just not realistic. He was very lucky, the teams he was blessed to play on and has taken way more credit away from great players than one work-lunch post can bring light to.

Oh I am not arguing that all of the success favre and the packers/jets/vikings are on his shoulders squarly. However, despite the fact teh vikings were in the playoffs before #4 showed up, they won the division and got in at 9-7, lost in round one, and there wild card teams with better records. That was just a bad season for the NFC North. Traditionally good teams had bad years (bears, packers) and the vikings scraped their way to the top, pounding it all the time.

Favre shows up, has pretty much the same team as the year prior, and they are in the NFC Championship game, and won significantly more games. Now, is that all on favre? No. Many felt the vikings were an 11 win team, though based on the QB's they had and the aging team, outside of AP I am not sure how the hell they thought they were an 11 win team. But in any case, Favre's direct impact on the vikings was the first time I think in his career you got to see the single difference he made to an offense. Any time a guy comes in and performs at the QB position as an MVP (really, he had MVP numbers) it's really hard to argue he did not make that offense significantly better.

My argument, though, was not on Favre;s impact - it was on AP's #'s. 4.4 yards a carry is GOOD. Sure, it's low for him, but so what? The line play declined for their rushing game and AP was stuck trying to break tackles in the backfield (the statistics support this). Sure if grant got the 30 more carries he needed to catch AP, his numbers would be identical.

But I am not sure it's really a negative thing. I think what you saw from AP is what you will see anytime he is in a passing offense. You certaintly will never except a colts RB to ever get 1700+ yards when Peyton is there. You just do get the numbers with a pass first team. With the titans... run run run run run, look at that 2k.

He did "negatively" affect AP in terms of numbers simply because AP wasn't the focal point of the offense. Overall though, Favre made the vikings a significantly better football team. It's really hard to argue against that point. If you want to talk career...

You're right, in GB things were not always true. He didn't "make" WR's per say, but he sure helped some. Corey Bradford? He was a decent name in GB, career gone after leaving. Billy Schreoder? Same thing. Freeman? Same thing. It was based on the fact that some mediocre WR's played for GB and had some pretty darn good seasons, but after leaving they pretty much played themselves out of the league.

Not every WR was made by Favre. Sterling Sharpe was already a stud, and I am pretty Positive Robert Brooks was just one hell of a player. Likewise, Donald Driver is just a great WR. Favre didn't make him, Driver is just that good. That doesn't mean he didn't give average WR's really good seasons.

Rice sure looks like he is hear to stay for the vikings, and you don't really know if he was just bad before or always was good and never had a real QB. In either case, the vikings last season were way better with Favre then without.

We were a better team for 16 seasons with favre then without. Is he the sole guy? No, it's a team game. But QB's are the focal points of an offense.

[ThunderDan]

I appreciated what BF did for the Packers but there were a number of NFL QBs who got traded because of BF's endurance.

Brunnel, Hasselbeck and Brooks. Who knows what they would have done in GB?

[packerbacker1234]

I appreciated what BF did for the Packers but there were a number of NFL QBs who got traded because of BF's endurance.

Brunnel, Hasselbeck and Brooks. Who knows what they would have done in GB?

Hasselback you have a good gage fore - as he was starter after he left and is still a starter today. He is a decent QB. Not great, and I am not sure I would be asking him to win a SB for you.

The others are sort of meh for what we can say. It's a lot of what ifs. But durability aside, Favre did have to continue to play well to keep his job, and he did play well. He just had that tendacy to blow it in the playoffs... sort of like McNabb... except were not philly so we don't chase QB's out.

[RashanGary]

And the Jets were better without Favre than with. You're choosing to believe what you want to believe and dismiss the rest.

[RashanGary]

My read is that the Packers are better without him than with. I believe that becaue the way Rodgers played in the 2nd half of last year is better than I remember Brett Favre ever playing.

Time will tell though. We need that championship.

Favre's a good QB though, and his durability and longevity are amazing. I'm certainly not arguing that. My view is that he's not as good as you think and the Packers will be just fine without him. I've felt that way for some time, before he left even. I've just seen too many QB's as good or better to think he's not replacable.

[packerbacker1234]

My read is that the Packers are better without him than with. I believe that becaue the way Rodgers played in the 2nd half of last year is better than I remember Brett Favre ever playing.

Time will tell though. We need that championship.

Today they are, I am just talking over the course of his career in GB - we could of been the packers... or we could of been the lions, bears, etc.

We were stable. I think today's team is better without, but 5 years ago? meh.

[RashanGary]

There are just too many QB's I've seen that were as good or better than Favre. I just don't buy his hype. I think he's had a very overrated career. Just not a champion other than the year the D and ST's were #1. There have been a handful of mediocre QB's to win championships with teams like that and Favre has been on too many really good teams to not win more if he was as good as some of his clippings.

[packerbacker1234]

There are just too many QB's I've seen that were as good or better than Favre. I just don't buy his hype. I think he's had a very overrated career. Just not a champion other than the year the D and ST's were #1. There have been a handful of mediocre teams to win championships with teams like that and Favre has been on too many really good teams to not win more if he was as good as some of his clippings.

And Peyton Manning didn't win a SB till his defense became the best playoff defense in the entire playoffs that year and his RB's combined for 250 yards as peyton tried his best to hand the game to Sexy Rexy.

I'm just saying, no QB wins the SB on his own. If Peyton is the best... good luck arguing he won that SB that year.

[RashanGary]

I think Peyton is better than Favre ever was, but that's just one guys opinion.

We disagree. I don't know if I've had this conversatin with you, but I've had it with others. It ends the same way, nobody changes their mind.

I understand your opinion. You might be right. It's going to take time to see how much that guy is missed. I'm guessing not much at all.

[get louder at lambeau]

He didn't "make" WR's per say, but he sure helped some. Corey Bradford? He was a decent name in GB, career gone after leaving. Billy Schreoder? Same thing. Freeman? Same thing. It was based on the fact that some mediocre WR's played for GB and had some pretty darn good seasons, but after leaving they pretty much played themselves out of the league.

Corey Bradford actually got slightly BETTER after he left with David Carr throwing at him. He played four years for Houston, then one for Detroit. Favre didn't make him by any stretch of the imagination.

Bill Schroeder was 31 before he left for Detroit. His stats went down, but he was well past his prime and playing on a 3-13 Matt Millen run Lions team and being thrown at by a rookie Joey Harrington. Not sure that says too much.

Antonio Freeman was 30 before he ever saw the field for another team, and he went from being a 16 game starter in GB to starting only one game in Philly, yet his production didn't fall much at all, with only 6 fewer receptions. He came back to GB ( and Faver) the next year, and that's when his production really went to shit.

So to sum up, Faver didn't make any of those guys. They were who they were. In GB, people find it hard to believe that it wasn't the miracle work of their legendary QB, but it wasn't. He didn't walk on water either. He's just an amazingly durable QB who had some great seasons and some pretty average seasons.

[RashanGary]

Nice post, Louder@Lambeau. . .

I get too lazy to look some of this stuff up. I'm not a Favre hater, really not at all, but when everyone around him gets put down to make everyone udnerstand just how wonderful he was, I just don't by it.

Favre played on some really good teams. He was a darn good QB and played in every game for almost 20 years so he has stats. He deserves credit for a fanstastic career.

He doesn't deserve the credit for the great players that played with him and I think all of those who said we were going to suffer without him are going to realize how little he meant to the big picture.

The Packers have a good situation with a good GM. They're going to be competitors year in adn year about because of that. Without Mark Murphy picking up where Harlan left off and staying true to Harlan's philosophies on football, none of it would be possible. I respect a lot of the things Favre did on the field, but not as much as I respect what Harlan did for this organization. He is the guy who changed it and he's the main reason why it was good through the 90's, 2000's and the way he left it, even through the 2010's. Until the attitude changes at the top, the Packers will be good. It starts up there. Some people just accidently credited one player with something much bigger. I get annoyed when people talk about how wonderful our country is, like we're somehow better than other people. But with the Packers, the way they're run at the top, I think they are better than most NFL teams and that's why they win.

[get louder at lambeau]

So anyway, how bout them Packers?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Rice > Jennings IMO
Driver > Barrian IMO
Harvin > Jones IMO
Shiancoe last year > super young Finley although Finley has flashed signs of near future greatness.

I'd give Jennings at least a wash with Rice. I was amazed at how much Rice was single covered last year--even after showing he was ready to break out. The Baltimore game stands out as a prime example when the Ravens tried to cover Rice one-on-one with Frank Walker. Having Favre, Peterson, Harvin, and Berrian as a deep threat opened things up for Rice to get one-on-one coverage.

I'd agree with Driver and Harvin. Finley actually had better numbers than Shiancoe--when you consider he played 3 fewer games (closer to 4).

Shiancoe = 56 catches, 566 yards, 10.1 in 16 games (I don't put much credence in his TD catches; not one came outside the redzone; he was very Bubba-like in his TD catches)

Finley = 55 catches, 676 yards, 12.3 in basically 12 games

[vince]

How the hell did this thread get thrown off? There was a reason why it was decided to put the Favre talk into one thread as I recall... something about contentiousness and other threads getting derailed...

Anyway, here's an article from Bleacher Report, a site that (not unlike a few others that shall remain nameless) requires you to search through the garbage to find some decent content. The article puts forth a good argument that I'm wrong about the pass rush being the biggest problem.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/396512-packers-neednt-worry-about-not-getting-a-new-pass-rusher?utm_source=newsletter

Green Bay Packers Needn't Worry About Getting a New Pass Rusher

Clay Matthews III stepped into the season expected by most to be just a good, solid pick for the Green Bay Packers in 2009. But a candidate for the defensive rookie of the year award? Who would have thought that?

Ten sacks and multiple forced fumble recoveries seem to indicate that this is more than just good player. He's the real deal, a future Hall of Famer, and a damn good player.

Packer Nation was so thrilled by this player that they couldn't resist thought of adding a second player like Matthews to increase pressure on opposing quarterbacks. The possibilities would seem limitless.

Jerry Hughes and Sergio Kindle became favorites for the 23rd pick in the 2010 NFL draft. They got Bulaga instead. Although most Packers fans feel he was wonderful pick, he certainly was not what Packer nation was expecting.

There were still seven more picks to go, Thompson will pick up a pass rusher later or trade up to get one. Neither happened.

So why shouldn't Packer nation be nervous about facing Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Romo, or Matt Schaub? Because, it's not the pass rushers fault, it's the secondary.

The Unseen Pass Rushing Ability

The Packers produced a measly 13 sacks in their first eight games. Not nearly enough to pressure anyone.

But after the Tampa Bay game, two things happened. One was the fact that Packers knew that they were better than this, and had to step it up a notch. So they did.

Second, Aaron Kampman was injured, and sat out during the Cowboy game. He tore a ligament in his leg against the 49ers and was gone for the season.

Why is Kampman's injury important? It gave way for Brad Jones to show what he's made of.

Brad Jones is by no means a Clay Matthews. That's for certain.

But I think that Packer nation has salivated so much at the thought of getting another Clay that they've forgotten that they don't need another Clay Matthews, just another good player. And Brad Jones probably fits that ticket perfectly.

Plus, Brad Jones might get more help on his part now. Ryan Pickett has been moved to defensive end. Theoretically, Jones will be given a lot more room to get to the quarterback with Pickett now drawing double and even triple teams on his side.

Pickett is a big guy who weighs 340 pounds in case you didn't know!

From Romo to Hasselbeck (a seven-game period), the Packers produced an astonishing 24 sacks. That would equate to about 55 sacks in a season.

I don't know how many of my Packer friends have noticed this fact. But I'm assuming that it wasn't very many. Mostly because of the fact Jerry Hughes was so demanded, and because I don't think I've heard from anyone else that they saw Packers producing so many sacks in the second half of the season. And I mean nobody .

The Seen Depleted Secondary

Most cite Kurt Warner, Ben Roethlisberger, and Brett Favre as the three main culprits who exposed the Packers inability to properly rush the quarterback. Personally, I think Smith belongs in that category as well. If you don't think so, then watch the second half of the 49er's game.

But Warner, Burger King, and Smith all had something that Favre didn't have. And that was a depleted Packers secondary to pick apart.

It was the fact that the Packers were, at the time, unable to sack the quarterback as to why Favre was able to pass so many touchdowns.

Warner had more touchdowns than incompletions. He was only sacked once, but some argue that the Cards have the best offensive line in the NFC. That is evident with the fact that Warner was sacked only 26 times in the regular season.

And Warner had a receiver corps that had three 1,000 yard receivers in 2008. That is sheer evidence of a depleted secondary, not a poor sacking ability.

Favre's passing stats in the two games against the Packers were 271 yards, and 244 yards. In fact, 14-time sacked Aaron Rodgers was able to get 287 yards, and a career high 384 yards in those games.

Compare that to Burger King's 503 yards and Warner's 373 yards. And even Alex Smith was able to get more than 200 yards in the second half the game where Al Harris was injured for the rest of the season.

Favre wasn't exposing a terrible secondary, he was exposing a poor pass rushing ability. Anyone who doubts this needs to just watch the highlight in which Favre had over seven seconds to find a receiver.That's right, seven seconds.

And we all know that even the greatest corner backs can't cover forever.

So what exactly am I trying to say?

There Was A Switcheroo

The Packers didn't have a bad secondary and a bad pass rushing ability at the same time. The fact is that one was bad for the first half of the season, and the other was bad for the second half of the season.

They just happened to switch so quickly that I don't think anyone noticed.

The only time the Packers had both a good pass rushing ability and a complete secondary was against the Cowboys, and the first half against the 49ers.

In that period, a total of 10 points were scored by the opponents, and the opponents quarterback was sacked eight times.

Aaron Kampman's injury allowed Brad Jones to come in, just around the time that Harris was injured.

I think Packer Nation just doesn't realize that you don't need someone like Clay Matthews to create enough pressure on quarterbacks. It's almost as though we think there is no such thing as anything in between an elite sacker and someone who can't sack at all.

The Packers may not have the best pass rushing ability in the league, maybe not even an elite pass rushing ability. But I certainly think they have enough now to get the job done.

By the start of next season, Jones and Matthews will have a year under their belt, and Harris will be healthy. Harris is making a remarkable recovery.

This should be enough for the Packers defense to perform like they did in those two games.
I'm not convinced that some pressure on the QB in those games the defense was shredded wouldn't have made a big difference, but a defensive backfield that included 5th, 6th and 7th options at CB and safeties off the street also played a big role.

[CaptainKickass]

:jack: Doesn't the Favre talk belong in the Favre thread?


I stopped counting the number of times the "F" word appears in this thread when I got to 60.

[packerbacker1234]

Rice > Jennings IMO
Driver > Barrian IMO
Harvin > Jones IMO
Shiancoe last year > super young Finley although Finley has flashed signs of near future greatness.

I'd give Jennings at least a wash with Rice. I was amazed at how much Rice was single covered last year--even after showing he was ready to break out. The Baltimore game stands out as a prime example when the Ravens tried to cover Rice one-on-one with Frank Walker. Having Favre, Peterson, Harvin, and Berrian as a deep threat opened things up for Rice to get one-on-one coverage.

I'd agree with Driver and Harvin. Finley actually had better numbers than Shiancoe--when you consider he played 3 fewer games (closer to 4).

Shiancoe = 56 catches, 566 yards, 10.1 in 16 games (I don't put much credence in his TD catches; not one came outside the redzone; he was very Bubba-like in his TD catches)

Finley = 55 catches, 676 yards, 12.3 in basically 12 games

What? They are TE's, the TD's for them ARE SUPPOSED to come in the redzone. It's pretty rare to see 30+ yard TD catches from a TE. As physically gifted as Finley is, I am willing to be most his TD's come in the redzone as well.

Redzones are built for TE's like finley and Shiancoe. Just saying, no idea why you take that credit away. TD catches in the redzone at times are even more impressive, because it's harder to get open on a much smaller field.

[vince]

I fixed the thread title for you boys. Hammer away.

[get louder at lambeau]

How the hell did this thread get thrown off? There was a reason why it was decided to put the Favre talk into one thread as I recall... something about contentiousness and other threads getting derailed...

Anyway, here's an article from Bleacher Report, a site that (not unlike a few others that shall remain nameless) requires you to search through the garbage to find some decent content. The article puts forth a good argument that I'm wrong about the pass rush being the biggest problem.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/396512-packers-neednt-worry-about-not-getting-a-new-pass-rusher?utm_source=newsletter

Green Bay Packers Needn't Worry About Getting a New Pass Rusher

Clay Matthews III stepped into the season expected by most to be just a good, solid pick for the Green Bay Packers in 2009. But a candidate for the defensive rookie of the year award? Who would have thought that?

Ten sacks and multiple forced fumble recoveries seem to indicate that this is more than just good player. He's the real deal, a future Hall of Famer, and a damn good player.

Packer Nation was so thrilled by this player that they couldn't resist thought of adding a second player like Matthews to increase pressure on opposing quarterbacks. The possibilities would seem limitless.

Jerry Hughes and Sergio Kindle became favorites for the 23rd pick in the 2010 NFL draft. They got Bulaga instead. Although most Packers fans feel he was wonderful pick, he certainly was not what Packer nation was expecting.

There were still seven more picks to go, Thompson will pick up a pass rusher later or trade up to get one. Neither happened.

So why shouldn't Packer nation be nervous about facing Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Romo, or Matt Schaub? Because, it's not the pass rushers fault, it's the secondary.

The Unseen Pass Rushing Ability

The Packers produced a measly 13 sacks in their first eight games. Not nearly enough to pressure anyone.

But after the Tampa Bay game, two things happened. One was the fact that Packers knew that they were better than this, and had to step it up a notch. So they did.

Second, Aaron Kampman was injured, and sat out during the Cowboy game. He tore a ligament in his leg against the 49ers and was gone for the season.

Why is Kampman's injury important? It gave way for Brad Jones to show what he's made of.

Brad Jones is by no means a Clay Matthews. That's for certain.

But I think that Packer nation has salivated so much at the thought of getting another Clay that they've forgotten that they don't need another Clay Matthews, just another good player. And Brad Jones probably fits that ticket perfectly.

Plus, Brad Jones might get more help on his part now. Ryan Pickett has been moved to defensive end. Theoretically, Jones will be given a lot more room to get to the quarterback with Pickett now drawing double and even triple teams on his side.

Pickett is a big guy who weighs 340 pounds in case you didn't know!

From Romo to Hasselbeck (a seven-game period), the Packers produced an astonishing 24 sacks. That would equate to about 55 sacks in a season.

I don't know how many of my Packer friends have noticed this fact. But I'm assuming that it wasn't very many. Mostly because of the fact Jerry Hughes was so demanded, and because I don't think I've heard from anyone else that they saw Packers producing so many sacks in the second half of the season. And I mean nobody .

The Seen Depleted Secondary

Most cite Kurt Warner, Ben Roethlisberger, and Brett Favre as the three main culprits who exposed the Packers inability to properly rush the quarterback. Personally, I think Smith belongs in that category as well. If you don't think so, then watch the second half of the 49er's game.

But Warner, Burger King, and Smith all had something that Favre didn't have. And that was a depleted Packers secondary to pick apart.

It was the fact that the Packers were, at the time, unable to sack the quarterback as to why Favre was able to pass so many touchdowns.

Warner had more touchdowns than incompletions. He was only sacked once, but some argue that the Cards have the best offensive line in the NFC. That is evident with the fact that Warner was sacked only 26 times in the regular season.

And Warner had a receiver corps that had three 1,000 yard receivers in 2008. That is sheer evidence of a depleted secondary, not a poor sacking ability.

Favre's passing stats in the two games against the Packers were 271 yards, and 244 yards. In fact, 14-time sacked Aaron Rodgers was able to get 287 yards, and a career high 384 yards in those games.

Compare that to Burger King's 503 yards and Warner's 373 yards. And even Alex Smith was able to get more than 200 yards in the second half the game where Al Harris was injured for the rest of the season.

Favre wasn't exposing a terrible secondary, he was exposing a poor pass rushing ability. Anyone who doubts this needs to just watch the highlight in which Favre had over seven seconds to find a receiver.That's right, seven seconds.

And we all know that even the greatest corner backs can't cover forever.

So what exactly am I trying to say?

There Was A Switcheroo

The Packers didn't have a bad secondary and a bad pass rushing ability at the same time. The fact is that one was bad for the first half of the season, and the other was bad for the second half of the season.

They just happened to switch so quickly that I don't think anyone noticed.

The only time the Packers had both a good pass rushing ability and a complete secondary was against the Cowboys, and the first half against the 49ers.

In that period, a total of 10 points were scored by the opponents, and the opponents quarterback was sacked eight times.

Aaron Kampman's injury allowed Brad Jones to come in, just around the time that Harris was injured.

I think Packer Nation just doesn't realize that you don't need someone like Clay Matthews to create enough pressure on quarterbacks. It's almost as though we think there is no such thing as anything in between an elite sacker and someone who can't sack at all.

The Packers may not have the best pass rushing ability in the league, maybe not even an elite pass rushing ability. But I certainly think they have enough now to get the job done.

By the start of next season, Jones and Matthews will have a year under their belt, and Harris will be healthy. Harris is making a remarkable recovery.

This should be enough for the Packers defense to perform like they did in those two games.
I'm not convinced that some pressure on the QB in those games the defense was shredded wouldn't have made a big difference, but a defensive backfield that included 5th, 6th and 7th options at CB and safeties off the street also played a big role.

That's a pretty good article. You'd think that the Press-Gazette or JSOnline would be the source for logical analysis like that, but nope, we have to dig it up from obscure bloggers.

It's a little over-simplified, as it mentions Faver only exploiting a lack of pass rush, when he also exploited a backup safety who had only been with the team for two weeks. It wasn't one or the other, but both lack of pass rush and depleted secondary, at least in the first Vikings game.

Anyway, despite the new title, maybe this thread can still be saved if we all wish really hard! Maybe we can click our heels together or something.

[ThunderDan]

I appreciated what BF did for the Packers but there were a number of NFL QBs who got traded because of BF's endurance.

Brunnel, Hasselbeck and Brooks. Who knows what they would have done in GB?

Hasselback you have a good gage fore - as he was starter after he left and is still a starter today. He is a decent QB. Not great, and I am not sure I would be asking him to win a SB for you.

The others are sort of meh for what we can say. It's a lot of what ifs. But durability aside, Favre did have to continue to play well to keep his job, and he did play well. He just had that tendacy to blow it in the playoffs... sort of like McNabb... except were not philly so we don't chase QB's out.

Brunnell is a meh??

He took the EXPANSION Jacksonville Jaguars to the AFC Championship in their 2nd year of existance. After Jacksonville's original season in 1995 they made the playoffs from 96-99 and made the AFC Championship twice in 96 and 99.

Just think what Brunnell might have done on an established team ready to go on the playoff runs the Packers did in the same time frame.

I can't say for sure that GB would have done better or worse but stating that only BF could have carried the Pack is ridiculous. Wolf drafted good QB prospects and Mike Holmgren coached them up.

[Scott Campbell]

Brunell played in 3 Probowls. Pretty good career.

[mraynrand]

Did anyone realize that Tom Copa was from Coon Rapids? He played Center, but I thought he was poorly suited for it.

[pbmax]

This is just plain dumb:


Pickett now drawing double and even triple teams on his side.

Triple teams just don't happen. And Pickett isn't getting double teamed unless he unleashes a pass rush heretofore undetected in his game.

1. I agree that Jones has not shown all he can do. He was often pulled in teh various nickel/dime packages.

2. Secondary was depleted, but even when they held their coverage reasonably well, opposing QBs had far too much time. See Roethlisberger's last pass. The Arizona game was an example where the backs and LBs couldn't do what they were being asked to do.

So of that will improve with another year learning not to let receivers release where they should not be allowed to go.

[Freak Out]

8-)

[Deputy Nutz]

I think Peyton is better than Favre ever was, but that's just one guys opinion.

We disagree. I don't know if I've had this conversatin with you, but I've had it with others. It ends the same way, nobody changes their mind.

I understand your opinion. You might be right. It's going to take time to see how much that guy is missed. I'm guessing not much at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucRpjpU3KoE

Manning couldn't do this when he was 23, much less at 38. Favre is Favre, and makes a lot of plays no one, and I mean no one could ever make at the QB position. He may have his complete screw ups, and playoff melt downs, but more than anything he makes your jaw drop to the floor, and that is what makes him special.

Manning, and Brady? Sure they are good, even great but I have never watched P. Manning and saw magic, saw something no one else has ever done on a football field.

Another play I have never seen Payton Manning make, at any age, much less at age 40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un3B7Og-FS0&feature=related

Again, Manning has his own form of greatness, but for my entertainment dollar Favre wins hands down

[hoosier]

Manning may not be much of a scrambler or good at ad-libbing once the play starts to breakdown but he is the best at letting his teammates know when they screw up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS-90x1op4s

[packerbacker1234]

I think Peyton is better than Favre ever was, but that's just one guys opinion.

We disagree. I don't know if I've had this conversatin with you, but I've had it with others. It ends the same way, nobody changes their mind.

I understand your opinion. You might be right. It's going to take time to see how much that guy is missed. I'm guessing not much at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucRpjpU3KoE

Manning couldn't do this when he was 23, much less at 38. Favre is Favre, and makes a lot of plays no one, and I mean no one could ever make at the QB position. He may have his complete screw ups, and playoff melt downs, but more than anything he makes your jaw drop to the floor, and that is what makes him special.

Manning, and Brady? Sure they are good, even great but I have never watched P. Manning and saw magic, saw something no one else has ever done on a football field.

Another play I have never seen Payton Manning make, at any age, much less at age 40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un3B7Og-FS0&feature=related

Again, Manning has his own form of greatness, but for my entertainment dollar Favre wins hands down

Yeah, sometimes with our hate blinders on we can forget exactly why people are just excited when he steps on the field. Yes, he has a long history now of blowing it in the playoffs, but you can't deny that every time he walks on the field, it can be hard to remove your eyes because you may see a play that may never be experienced again. Favre is just special in that way - one of the best improvisers and "play makers" to really ever play the game. Of course, he isn't th ebest with late game decision making per say either.

Still, it's plays like that on why he is still one of the most entertaining players in the league. He's still making plays like those in his old age. NFL is just more exciting when he is in it.

Oh, to also add to what peyton is known for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1piy8Zxddw

Oh, and who can forget is well deserved Super Bowl MVP:

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=270204003

1td, 1int, 1 lost fumble. There's your MVP boys.

[pbmax]

I think Peyton is better than Favre ever was, but that's just one guys opinion.

We disagree. I don't know if I've had this conversatin with you, but I've had it with others. It ends the same way, nobody changes their mind.

I understand your opinion. You might be right. It's going to take time to see how much that guy is missed. I'm guessing not much at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucRpjpU3KoE

Manning couldn't do this when he was 23, much less at 38. Favre is Favre, and makes a lot of plays no one, and I mean no one could ever make at the QB position. He may have his complete screw ups, and playoff melt downs, but more than anything he makes your jaw drop to the floor, and that is what makes him special.

Manning, and Brady? Sure they are good, even great but I have never watched P. Manning and saw magic, saw something no one else has ever done on a football field.

Another play I have never seen Payton Manning make, at any age, much less at age 40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un3B7Og-FS0&feature=related

Again, Manning has his own form of greatness, but for my entertainment dollar Favre wins hands down
Bill Russell once said most blocked shots are the result of a defensive breakdown somewhere else. Colledge lost his guy a early and Favre had to bail on this throw. Its a tremendous effort, but its precisely how you live and die with the guy. If he takes a bad step on his run, he could easily have missed the target (possible INT) or gotten hit and lose the ball.

In some ways, he is the perfect QB for an otherwise average offense that benefits from risk taking.

This play also demonstrates one of the flaws in Colledge's game. Favre has called Lee in to block on the right side. But the Seaturkeys are bluffing here. The threatening LB drops into the middle short zone. On the Left, the OLB on the slot WR/TE blitzes and Clifton gets him. Colledge is now watching the guy on Clifton's inside shoulder AND his own DT. He glances at the DE as he runs a stunt into the middle for too long and cannot recover to block the DT who is going wide into the T-G gap. As it turned out, Wells is available to take the stunting DE and does. Colledge should not have waited.

There are only three possible rushers on the right side. With Lee, there is would seem to be no need to slide protection right. But we cannot know the line call. Colledge is faced with two rushers and watches both. Either by assignment or by line call, he should have just been watching one even on stunt. Its also possible no one but Clifton saw that outside blitzer. And so Colledge recognizes that the LT is unavailable too late. Its a nicely designed rush and works to a T with Colledges one moment of hesitation.

[pbmax]

I just watched it a few more times and they did not slide the protection right. Wells, after the snap ignores the DT or Nose on his right shoulder (Spitz takes him) and steps left. Colledge heads left too and then at the last crucial second he takes his eyes off his guy to track the stunting DE. He should have known Wells was available. By adding Lee, they have effectively slid protection left which means Colledge should have taken the wide part of the DE/DT twist knowing Wells was taking the inside move. That freed Clifton to take the wide blitzer.

My coaches would have called that thinking too much.

[sharpe1027]

.................................................. ..,,,,...Difference in Ranking yr. 1 to yr. 2
....................Pts. Rank........Yds. Rank...............Pts..............Yds.
Steelers
92.....................2....................13
93.....................8.....................3.... ..................-6................10
Panthers
95.....................8.....................7
96.....................2....................10.... ...................6................-3
Jaguars
99.....................1.....................4
00....................16...................12..... ................-15...............-8
Texans
02.....................20...................16
03.....................27...................31.... .................-7...............-15
Dolphins
06......................5....................4
07.....................30..................23..... ...............-25...............-19

Average Difference from Yr. 1 to Yr. 2.......-9.4................-7

Packers
09.....................7....................2
Projected 2010...16...................9


How about turnovers and sacks:
Steelers
92 - 22 ints + 21 fumbles = 43 TO.................36 sacks
93 - 24 ints + 17 fumbles = 38 TO.................42 sacks

-5 TO; + 6 sacks

Panthers
95 - 21 ints + 16 fumbles = 37 TO..................36 sacks
96 - 22 ints + 16 fumbles = 38 TO..................60 sacks

+1 TO; +24 sacks

Jaguars
99 - 19 ints + 11 fumbles = 30 TO..................57 sacks
00 - 12 ints + 18 fumbles = 30 TO..................40 sacks

+0 TO; -20 sacks

Texans
02 - 10 ints + 11 fumbles = 21 TO..................35 sacks
03 - 14 ints + 8 fumbles. = 22 TO..................19 sacks

+1 TO; -16 sacks

Dolphins
06 - 8. ints + 19 fumbles = 27 TO...................47 sacks
07 - 14 ints + 8. fumbles = 22 TO...................30 sacks

-5 TO; -17 sacks

Totals:
-1.6 TO; -6.6 sacks

Packers
09 - 30 ints + 10 fumbles = 40 TO...................37 sacks
Projected:
10 - 38.4 TO; 30.4 sacks

[mraynrand]

See Roethlisberger's last pass.

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/JollyChristmas.jpg

[mraynrand]

I think Peyton is better than Favre ever was, but that's just one guys opinion.

We disagree. I don't know if I've had this conversatin with you, but I've had it with others. It ends the same way, nobody changes their mind.

I understand your opinion. You might be right. It's going to take time to see how much that guy is missed. I'm guessing not much at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucRpjpU3KoE

Manning couldn't do this when he was 23, much less at 38. Favre is Favre, and makes a lot of plays no one, and I mean no one could ever make at the QB position. He may have his complete screw ups, and playoff melt downs, but more than anything he makes your jaw drop to the floor, and that is what makes him special.

Manning, and Brady? Sure they are good, even great but I have never watched P. Manning and saw magic, saw something no one else has ever done on a football field.

Another play I have never seen Payton Manning make, at any age, much less at age 40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un3B7Og-FS0&feature=related

Again, Manning has his own form of greatness, but for my entertainment dollar Favre wins hands down

Those are great plays, no doubt. Favre is a unique, fantastic gamer. Is there a Manning play quite like this one:
http://s453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/mraynrand/?action=view&current=favremoonshot.flv

[RashanGary]

I think Peyton is better than Favre ever was, but that's just one guys opinion.

We disagree. I don't know if I've had this conversatin with you, but I've had it with others. It ends the same way, nobody changes their mind.

I understand your opinion. You might be right. It's going to take time to see how much that guy is missed. I'm guessing not much at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucRpjpU3KoE

Manning couldn't do this when he was 23, much less at 38. Favre is Favre, and makes a lot of plays no one, and I mean no one could ever make at the QB position. He may have his complete screw ups, and playoff melt downs, but more than anything he makes your jaw drop to the floor, and that is what makes him special.

Manning, and Brady? Sure they are good, even great but I have never watched P. Manning and saw magic, saw something no one else has ever done on a football field.

Another play I have never seen Payton Manning make, at any age, much less at age 40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un3B7Og-FS0&feature=related

Again, Manning has his own form of greatness, but for my entertainment dollar Favre wins hands down

Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Bart Starr and Troy Aikman, none of them had as many amazing plays as Brett Favre. . . . They played within themselves, within the team and only cared about winning. When everything was on the line, when the championship was within reach, they didn't have a habit of doing this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whk0VTuMAdU

I don't care if Bert used to be strong, used to have a big arm, used to make amazing plays. He's had a lot of chances at rings and failed because his focus was on the amazing, not on winning.

Watching Brett Favre is like watching the best And-1 player. It's spectacular. It makes your jaw drop, but when the team blends together and become's one, that Stephon Marburry might look great out there, but his team isn't a champ. Go get your ticket to the next and-1 game, get your ticket to the Vikings. I'm hoping to see a championship in GB. I'll buy my Packer tickets, thanks.

Good riddance Bert.

[get louder at lambeau]

Again, Manning has his own form of greatness, but for my entertainment dollar Favre wins hands down

Agreed for entertainment value, by far. You never know what you'll get with Faver, so it's extremely exciting.

If I was going to pick one to win a game for me though, I'd take Manning hands down. He's just a better QB overall, even if he has a less exciting style of play.

[Upnorth]

Regarding Favre, as of last year he was still one of the best in the league, and if he plays this year has a good chance of remaining one of the best in the league.
Still I would take AR as my QB, and would have in 2008 and 2009 as well, because I want the packers to be great for the next decade, not just next year or two.
Getting back to the team, was there overhauls done on the defense between the first and second year of the previous teams Capers coached?
If not, I do not like what this implies.

[Pugger]

Favre is capable of jaw-dropping plays no doubt. He is exciting if nothing else. But his propensity to screw up, especially in big games, is his Achille's heel and why I'd choose Manning, Brady or Brees if the game was on the line and I had to choose a QB other than the guy currently starting for that team at 1265. In a big game you want a QB that will play smart and not try to force the ball when it isn't necessary.

[sharpe1027]

Favre is capable of jaw-dropping plays no doubt. He is exciting if nothing else. But his propensity to screw up, especially in big games, is his Achille's heel and why I'd choose Manning, Brady or Brees if the game was on the line and I had to choose a QB other than the guy currently starting for that team at 1265. In a big game you want a QB that will play smart and not try to force the ball when it isn't necessary.


Maybe, but I still believe that there is some concern that the Packer's defense might actually take a step back in their second year.

One theory is that Capers is great at adjusting his schemes to fit his current players, and this is difficult for opposing teams to adjust to because he often uses very unique solutions. However, going into his second year, the players remain largely the same so his schemes are also largely the same. Teams are given enough time to analyze and prepare and thus the drop from first year to second year.

IDK how accurate that is, because haven't looked in depth at any of the teams, but he does seem to shake things up in his first year.

[Bretsky]

:jack: Doesn't the Favre talk belong in the Favre thread?

I stopped counting the number of times the "F" word appears in this thread when I got to 60.


:bclap: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap: :bclap:

[Upnorth]

So how about that D.
Vince, could you restart the thread because this is a much more important issue than still fighting over 4.
After seeing the regression from yr 1 to yr 2 coupled with an aging starting CB's I don't like where the Pack might be heading.

[Fritz]

I have faith that Lee and/or Underwood will step up. If the team can stay healthy, I'm feeling pretty good.

[Tony Oday]

I have faith that Lee and/or Underwood will step up. If the team can stay healthy, I'm feeling pretty good.

I hope I am wrong but I feel impending doom in our pass defense. I mean this is the year most of the guys either "get" it or get das boot!

[vince]

So how about that D.
Vince, could you restart the thread because this is a much more important issue than still fighting over 4.
After seeing the regression from yr 1 to yr 2 coupled with an aging starting CB's I don't like where the Pack might be heading.
I just saw this request Upnorth. I changed the title back to the original.

I'm with Fritz on the outlook for this year. You have to expect the team to continue to be stout against the run, so it comes down to the passing defense. I think we'll see more pressure dialed up and better coverage this year in 'big' games.

It seemed to be the "elite"ish QB's that did the damage last year. While it's practically impossible to predict, the schedule would appear to be overall a bit tougher, but maybe fewer "elite" passing QB's are on the schedule.

Favre and Brady will probably be the two best, plus Eli Manning and McNabb, neither of whom are in that category as passers IMO. Also, Matt Ryan and probably improved Stafford and Cutler twice each, although I'd place each of them a notch below elite as well at this point. We can probably expect Romo to bounce back. Then there's Sanchez, Kolb (in the opener), Henne, Smith and whoever outlasts the others in Buffalo... I wouldn't expect any of them to light up the scoreboard. Smith did have a pretty good second half against the Packers in 2009 though with 3 TD passes after halftime.

[Fritz]

It really does start with pressure, but even so, you can blitz a million guys but if it's a quick drop and throw, you can have a hard time putting pressure on. So you've got to have the coverage. But Pat Lee was a second round guy, I believe, and MM seems to think Underwood has started to grow up. So let's cross our fingers for Harris's recovery, and go Pack!

[Packers4Ever]

Players who should get better

Matthews
Jones
Raji


Should drop off

Woodson


Should stay the same

Everyone else (assuming Jolly misses only 4 games)



Just talent, I think we got better. Being in the 2nd year, we should be a little further along early.



I don't see a drop off. Dom is going to work on rezone defense. He seems like a good, experienced coach. I'd expect improvement there. I would expect he will clean up some of the confusion we had with nickle and dime defenses as well.

Overall, I think last years defense was moderately overrated. This year we should have a slightly better defense. I'd call it a good, solid defense. Compared to last year, I'd say it should be similar with less glaring mistakes.


Don't count on Woody to 'drop off' - - !! :P

[Packers4Ever]

AR is this years #1 fantasy QB according to just about everyone. That means people think he's going to put up the best numbers of any QB in the league. If these people have any clue what they're talking about, AR has to be a front runner for the MVP when those odds come out too.

I'd say AR is earning his respect.


I'd say so too, JH, he's no longer a 'no name' - -
all over the country people know the name and if they
don't, they're asleep. If he stays well he has a fabulous
career ahead! 8-)