Packer Player Under Investigation In Sexual Assault

[Joemailman]

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20100605/PKR01/100605041/1058/Packers-player-under-investigation-in-alleged-Lake-Delton-sexual-assault

Sgt. Gerald Grimsled says police responded to a Lake Delton condo around 4:20 a.m. Saturday on a report that two women were sexually assaulted. He says seven players were questioned and all cooperated. He says they were all released but police are still investigating whether one player was involved in both assaults.

He says the six others are not suspected of criminal activity. They are Matt Flynn, Khalil Jones, Josh Sitton, Korey Hall, Brad Jones and Clay Matthews.

I guess it's hold your breath time until we know more.

[RashanGary]

Aaron Rodgers? :lol:

[Scott Campbell]

Aaron Rodgers? :lol:



That's not even a little funny.


Nobody's ready for the Matt Flynn era.

[RashanGary]

It's funny because Aaron seems like the type to never hurt anyone.


But I guess yeah, it wouldn't be very funny, as a Packer fan, if we lost him.

[Lurker64]

According to Rodgers's Twitter, he had dinner at Chives in Suamico the night of the alleged assault, which by my math is about 2.5-3 hours away from Lake Delton. So he probably wasn't there.

[Kiwon]

I guess it's hold your breath time until we know more.

Ain't the off-season great? You can always expect at least a couple of these incidents.

[pbmax]

According to Rodgers's Twitter, he had dinner at Chives in Suamico the night of the alleged assault, which by my math is about 2.5-3 hours away from Lake Delton. So he probably wasn't there.
Establishing an alibi by Twitter? That's a new one. Matthews did the same for Barnett.

http://twitter.com/ClayMatthews52/status/15446426810

[buchunter03]

Looks like the player is Brandon Underwood...

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/95693179.html

[CaliforniaCheez]

One guy assaulted two women....at the same time?

The police say their investigation is wrapping up less than 12 hours after the initial report.

It is a bit bizzare of a story. The only way possible would be with a spiked drink. Otherwise it appears that it is a bit of a hoax or a faulty accusation.

From what I've seen in Green Bay even the ugliest Packer can find those willing to consent.

Will have to wait for more information but there isn't a cover up or denial going on.

[vince]

One guy assaulted two women....at the same time?

The police say their investigation is wrapping up less than 12 hours after the initial report.

It is a bit bizzare of a story. The only way possible would be with a spiked drink. Otherwise it appears that it is a bit of a hoax or a faulty accusation.

From what I've seen in Green Bay even the ugliest Packer can find those willing to consent.

Will have to wait for more information but there isn't a cover up or denial going on.
I'm not an attorney, but I assume that sexual assault is different than rape. It certainly seems unlikely that one man could simultaneously rape two women unless they were bound (which would seem to imply some level of consent in this context), but perhaps assault would entail something less and therefore not be so impossible to imagine... Just throwing it out there. Again, I'm not real clear on exactly what might constitute sexual assault.

[Iron Mike]

http://nxt.legis.state.wi.us/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&d=stats&jd=940.225

[vince]

Thanks Mike. Clear as mud. :wink:

Here's an article that gives some of the facts of the evening.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime_and_courts/article_39cbdfb0-7109-11df-8cbc-001cc4c002e0.html


Authorities are investigating a Green Bay Packers player who was accused of sexual assault by two women at a resort cabin early Saturday with six of his teammates in nearby rooms, Lake Delton authorities said.

Police in the south-central Wisconsin community didn't identify the player, who was questioned and released.

"We don't want to give the player a bad name," Sgt. Gerald Grimsled said. Investigators "were comfortable with releasing him and continuing the investigation as is.

"It comes down to was it consensual sex? One side says yes, the other says no."

Police Chief Tom Dorner said he doesn't expect any more interviews. He said he would take the case to the district attorney Monday or Tuesday to consider charges.

Packers spokesman Jeff Blumb said in a statement Saturday that team officials "are aware of the reported incident and still are gathering facts."

Authorities were called to a Lake Delton condo around 4:20 a.m. Saturday on a report that two women had been sexually assaulted by more than one man.

The seven players were all staying in one condo that has multiple bedrooms. Dorner said the two Milwaukee area women, ages 31 and 33, met the players hours earlier.

Police said they arrived to find the players still at the condo and that all of them had been drinking. The women and the one player were in a room together, but Dorner said it's not clear whether all three had been drinking.

Six players were cleared of any wrongdoing. Police said they were backup quarterback Matt Flynn, safety Khalil Jones, guard Josh Sitton, fullback Korey Hall, linebacker Brad Jones and linebacker Clay Matthews.

Matthews hosted a charity golf tournament Friday in nearby Wisconsin Dells. Nearly two dozen Packers players were featured, organizers said.

Police interviewed all seven of the players who were at the condo Saturday. After speaking with the men, investigators interviewed the two women further and released all but one player. They interviewed that player a second time and then released him.

Dorner said it's not clear why the initial report claimed more than one man was involved. "I don't have an explanation for that right now," he said.

Even if charges are never filed in this case, it's another distraction for a team that's expected to be among the NFL's elite this season.

The team has already dealt with questions about defensive end Johnny Jolly, who faces trial on Monday in Houston. Jolly was arrested two years ago and charged with possession of codeine. If convicted, he faces up to 20 years in prison.

[RashanGary]

Damn, these girls are 31 and 33. I'm sorry, but Underwood is a 23 year old guy. Using common sense, if anyone is young and dumb here, it's Underwood. These are two grizzled vets, out on the town, like they probably have been a hundred times. They're alone, in a hotel room, with Brandon Underwood, getting sexually assaulted together.

31 and 33 is old enough to know how to say no and old enough to know they could get money out of this. I've never read one of these that read like a complete set up until this one. If Underwood did it, shame on him. Just reading what's available though, it sounds very suspicious.

[vince]

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/95693179.html

These players may be jumping the gun here, but this is perhaps a little telling...

When apprised that the investigation centered on Underwood, 23, several players who wished to remain anonymous said he had been a problem since he was drafted in the sixth round in 2009 out of Cincinnati.

And there's this from Underwood's bio page on Packers.com

Married to Brandie, the couple has two sons, Cameron, 1, and infant Blake

Whether he assaulted either of them or not, it's too bad he put himself in this position - for everyone involved.

[BlueBrewer]

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/95693179.html

These players may be jumping the gun here, but this is perhaps a little telling...

When apprised that the investigation centered on Underwood, 23, several players who wished to remain anonymous said he had been a problem since he was drafted in the sixth round in 2009 out of Cincinnati.

And there's this from Packers.com

Married to Brandie, the couple has two sons, Cameron, 1, and infant Blake

I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but after hearing he has a family, what a POS.

[BlueBrewer]

Damn, these girls are 31 and 33. I'm sorry, but Underwood is a 23 year old guy. Using common sense, if anyone is young and dumb here, it's Underwood. These are two grizzled vets, out on the town, like they probably have been a hundred times. They're alone, in a hotel room, with Brandon Underwood, getting sexually assaulted together.

31 and 33 is old enough to know how to say no and old enough to know they could get money out of this. I've never read one of these that read like a complete set up until this one. If Underwood did it, shame on him. Just reading what's available though, it sounds very suspicious.


My thoughts exactly.

[pbmax]

Thanks Mike. Clear as mud. :wink:
Sexual Assault is the legal category for all the different types of illegal behavior of a sexual nature. It does include rape, but also can include fondling and physical restraint. I think the Georgia laws Roethlisberger was up against had six degrees of sexual assault and non-consensual intercourse appeared in the 3rd degree and up.

[pbmax]

http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/95693179.html

These players may be jumping the gun here, but this is perhaps a little telling...

When apprised that the investigation centered on Underwood, 23, several players who wished to remain anonymous said he had been a problem since he was drafted in the sixth round in 2009 out of Cincinnati.

And there's this from Underwood's bio page on Packers.com

Married to Brandie, the couple has two sons, Cameron, 1, and infant Blake

Whether he assaulted either of them or not, it's too bad he put himself in this position - for everyone involved.
It seems quite possible there were reasons other than physical maturity to explain Underwood dropping in the draft.

[Bretsky]

Who knows what occured here; but let's respect the fact that this would be a sensitive subject among genders before jumping to any conclusions.

[pbmax]

On the plus side, the Packers are no longer winning the offseason. This is good. Didn't Brett go to rehab before the Super Bowl season?

[Joemailman]

I think Jarrett Bush set this whole thing up.

[vince]

:lol: I've read that he already has compromising pictures of TT, so he's obviously capable of such underhanded tactics.

In football terms though, even without an arrest, the Packers will be forced to respond in some way. I can't believe they'll take too kindly to such behavior, particularly if there's some sort of pattern that's been occurring behind the scenes here.

In addition to helping the mastermind, this may well give your guy Bell a better shot as well JH.

[Tarlam!]

even without an arrest, the Packers will be forced to respond in some way. I can't believe they'll take too kindly to such behavior, particularly if there's some sort of pattern that's been occurring behind the scenes here.

It doesn't sound likely that there was legal wrong doing based on the article and the police reactions being reported. This has a different feeling than Ben Rapistburger.

Frankly, it if he wasn't married and he had consentual contact with two girls, then the guy is a hero to a heck of a lot of other guys, right? Where's Bretsky?

So, the Packers (et NFL) could only comment on a player that betrayed his family.

At what point is the employee no longer liable for his conduct outside of work hours? Does cheating your wife throw a bad light on the NFL or Packers?

[vince]

Good questions Tar. I'd say that they shouldn't cut him based on this one incident if he's not charged. The team should stay out of marital relations in my opinion.

What we don't know is the extent to which there is a pattern of unacceptable behavior here that hurts the team. There are hints that there are. Last year, Witt called Underwood "immature." Now there are anonymous players suggesting that the kid's a problem.

There may be an issue related to general distraction that isn't good for the team. I don't know enough to think the team should cut him at this point, but there's a fair chance that others do.

There's no question that not all players are treated equally, and Underwood isn't above being made an example of. He appears to have a promising chance to contribute to the team, but he's probably not overwhelmingly superior to Bell this year, and he's certainly not irreplaceable over the long-term either, so I don't think the team will hesitate to cut the chord if they feel that it's in the best interests to do so.

If they keep him, then I'm confident that, based on the complete information they have, it's the right thing to do.

[CaptainKickass]

Authorities were called to a Lake Delton condo around 4:20 a.m.


Must be nice to have the cops stop by for a quick bong hit. Wonder if they brought donuts for the munchies?

[Tarlam!]

Yeah, Vince, I see what you're saying. I put forward to you the Finley case as evidence that the Packers can be patient with immaturity if they think they have a winner on their hands.

If Underwood has the talent to be as good a CB as Finley is becoming a TE (knock on wood), then what does TT do? Admittedly, I have no idea about either players' conduct, or Underwood's potential; only what we get from the press. This comparison might be flawed, but it seemed like an interesting angle.

[Fred's Slacks]

A little off topic...I was reading one of the blogs on JSO about this and I made the mistake of reading the reader comments. Why is it that only morons post there? I get so upset reading those, but sometimes I can't stop myself. It's like gruesome crime scene photos. You know they're going to disturb you but you just have to look.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm curious how one woman was having consensual sex while the other claims he went to a bad place without permission. I have my theory.

[vince]

I'm pretty sure both women are claiming assault, at least that's what the articles linked above and elsewhere that I've seen say.

On a related note, it seems like Clay Matthews is throwing his teammate under the bus a bit, either to cover his own ass or perhaps because he's representing the frustration he and his teammates feel for Underwood's repeated behavior.

Matthews' Statements at Donald Drivers Charity Softball Event Today (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/95730719.html)

Unfortunately one person kind of put himself in a situation that kind of dampened this weekend a little bit. It is unfortunate, there’s no doubt about it. But everybody showed up today, trying to move forward, trying to put that behind us and wipe our hands clean.
...
It’s unfortunate that you’re portrayed in a negative way. It’s unfortunate, a little aggravating. But we need to move forward and that’s what we did today.

[GBRulz]

Damn, these girls are 31 and 33. I'm sorry, but Underwood is a 23 year old guy. Using common sense, if anyone is young and dumb here, it's Underwood. These are two grizzled vets, out on the town, like they probably have been a hundred times. They're alone, in a hotel room, with Brandon Underwood, getting sexually assaulted together.

31 and 33 is old enough to know how to say no and old enough to know they could get money out of this. I've never read one of these that read like a complete set up until this one. If Underwood did it, shame on him. Just reading what's available though, it sounds very suspicious.

First of all, until we have all the facts it's just speculation. Secondly, to say that the women are older and should know better has nothing to do with this. When someone says no, age doesn't matter. Then again, of all the years i've known you, your derogatory comments toward women certainly do not surprise me.

[GBRulz]

Btw, I came on here to read the latest as I first heard about this on the news. Yup, a local SC news station! The Packers never make the news here!!

[MJZiggy]

Btw, I came on here to read the latest as I first heard about this on the news. Yup, a local SC news station! The Packers never make the news here!!

Oh boy! Then I'm sure they'll have heard about it at work. This should be fun tomorrow...

[pbmax]

Damn, these girls are 31 and 33. I'm sorry, but Underwood is a 23 year old guy. Using common sense, if anyone is young and dumb here, it's Underwood. These are two grizzled vets, out on the town, like they probably have been a hundred times. They're alone, in a hotel room, with Brandon Underwood, getting sexually assaulted together.

31 and 33 is old enough to know how to say no and old enough to know they could get money out of this. I've never read one of these that read like a complete set up until this one. If Underwood did it, shame on him. Just reading what's available though, it sounds very suspicious.
To someone who imagines the worst of one side of the story (grizzled veterans who know they could get some money) and then imagines the best (Underwood is young and dumb) about the other side, I have no problem seeing how you come to the conclusion that this is a setup.

I rest easier assuming (perhaps I should not) that you do not have a critical position at work, like nuclear launch technician, police officer, FBI agent or trash collector. Because a trash collector who reasons like you would haul away the car I do not keep in the garage. Because, after all, who would keep a working car in the driveway when they have a perfectly good garage to use?

[Bretsky]

HERE WAS A POINT ALSO MADE IN JS


When apprised that the investigation centered on Underwood, 23, several players who wished to remain anonymous said he had been a problem since he was drafted in the sixth round in 2009 out of Cincinnati. Cornerbacks coach Joe Whitt talked last season about Underwood being immature early in his rookie season.

[Tarlam!]

I rest easier assuming (perhaps I should not) that you do not have a critical position at work, like nuclear launch technician, police officer, FBI agent or trash collector. Because a trash collector who reasons like you would haul away the car I do not keep in the garage. Because, after all, who would keep a working car in the driveway when they have a perfectly good garage to use?

Stop it, PB! You're killing me!

:flm:

[wootah]

On a related note, it seems like Clay Matthews is throwing his teammate under the bus a bit, either to cover his own ass or perhaps because he's representing the frustration he and his teammates feel for Underwood's repeated behavior.

I guess the fact that this happened after a fundraiser organized by Matthews' charity organization also plays a role; he'd might have some explaining to do for his sponsors.

[CaliforniaCheez]

After reading the law there are some problems.


Blood alcohol level.
If she was too drunk to say "no" it is assault.
If she was passed out at any point no matter how brief it is assault.

Psycho - If she has a mental illness it is assault. Nowdays that is a very loose definition.

The Law is far too wide open for a DA.
For example "sexual assault law does not require proof of stimulation of the clitoris or vulva for finding cunnilingus"

"Expert testimony is not required in every case to establish the existence of a mental illness or deficiency rendering the victim unable to appraise his or her conduct"

"The victim's belief that the defendant was armed is enough"

The "use or threat of force or violence" does not require that the force be directed toward compelling the victim's submission, but includes forcible contact or the force used as the means of making contact. (Pushing to the bed or one rollover in it seems enough or holding hands)

"The sexual assault statute includes any intrusion of any part of a person's body." (Don't bump into anyone in a crowd, kiss someone, or give a wet willie)

And the biggie. "Failure to resist is not consent."




Wisconsin you have a huge problem with they way the law is written.


Holding hands, hugging, or initiating a kiss can send you to prison.

The victim can appear sober but any measurable amount the victim can claim to be too drunk and send you to prison. Her claim is the only standard.

Any mental illness or phobia means the person is off limits or you go to prison.

The victim only has to say that they believed the other person had a weapon or believed a muscular person was threatening by the appearance of their muscles is enough to send you to prison. The victim's belief is the only standard.

Heaven help Underwood if some man-hating bull dyke assistant district attorney with a castrating fetish gets a hold of this case, if he is arrested.

We all saw the injustice done to Chumura when the girl's hymen was still intact.

[packrulz]

This quote is a red flag to me :
The women initially indicated more than one player was involved, according to police.

Why would they both say that, then change their story?

[RashanGary]

I'm saying, of the 31 and 33 year old people I know and the 23 year old people I know, there aren't too many 23 year old people I know that have that type of power over much more mature and experienced people. The context seems strange there.

It's hard for me to imagine sexual assault. It's the type of horrible that really has no excuse. I tend to think almost all people have more loving hearts than to do that to another person. When I read something like this, I have a hard time believing a person assaulted another person.

But then again, at work, I'm shocked at how backstabbing and deceitful people can be. I'm shocked sometimes how many people hate other people for being different. I think it's likely that I do have a distorted view of people. It seems so obvious to everyone else that he did it. I'll be shocked if he sexually assaulted them, but it's possible I'm just wrong and that people do that to other people a lot more than I think.

[vince]

Reading CC's breakdown, it's clear that there are a lot of ways it could be assault, particularly with alchohol involved and at that hour of the morning. Everyone could have been partying and the girls were too drunk to drive so they passed out in a room, only to have Underwood follow them in without their permission. If they were too inebriated, and/or if Underwood was too inebriated, there could easily be a problem.

Also, there's a video of Matthews comments on JSO here. http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/95730719.html

He was there. What he says and how he says it seems condemning.

[Joemailman]

I think Vince is right. If it turns out Underwood was the only one involved, and no one else did anything wrong, he may be let go just for the sake of team camaraderie, if nothing else. It sounded to me like Matthews and Flynn were really pissed off for being dragged into this story. The others probably are as well. It's not like Underwood has done much to this point to garner much loyalty from either the players or the organization. Letting him go would be an easy way for the organization to send a message to everyone that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated in Green Bay.

[Tarlam!]

Mathews was accused of roiding and denied it, but the press must have been terrifying for a kid hoping to be drafted, so, him publicly criticizing Underwood throws up a bunch of red flags. Either CMIII is a real prick, or Underwood is.

[hoosier]

Damn, these girls are 31 and 33. I'm sorry, but Underwood is a 23 year old guy. Using common sense, if anyone is young and dumb here, it's Underwood. These are two grizzled vets, out on the town, like they probably have been a hundred times. They're alone, in a hotel room, with Brandon Underwood, getting sexually assaulted together.

31 and 33 is old enough to know how to say no and old enough to know they could get money out of this. I've never read one of these that read like a complete set up until this one. If Underwood did it, shame on him. Just reading what's available though, it sounds very suspicious.
To someone who imagines the worst of one side of the story (grizzled veterans who know they could get some money) and then imagines the best (Underwood is young and dumb) about the other side, I have no problem seeing how you come to the conclusion that this is a setup.

I rest easier assuming (perhaps I should not) that you do not have a critical position at work, like nuclear launch technician, police officer, FBI agent or trash collector. Because a trash collector who reasons like you would haul away the car I do not keep in the garage. Because, after all, who would keep a working car in the driveway when they have a perfectly good garage to use?

Relax, Justin is only a surgeon. :lol:

[Tarlam!]

It's not like Underwood has done much to this point to garner much loyalty from either the players or the organization. Letting him go would be an easy way for the organization to send a message to everyone that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated in Green Bay.

Finely hadn't done much and was a pain in the ass, until last season. Lord Favre was a pain in the ass a couple of seasons and continually betrayed his wife. I'm sure the list of PITA is long and venerable.

With Goodell raging, attitudes from players have evolved, I guess. But at this stage, all the public know for certain is that Underwood has admitted to adultery. Whether or not he committed a crime or merely is a victim of poor judgement or a setup is yet to be determined. He has not been charged let alone convicted.

I, for one, still value the mantra "innocent until proven guilty" and I would hope that the Packers (players, coaches and front office) share in that mantra. Apparently not, judging by CMIII's comments. If I am Underwood and my crimes against humanity were insufferable immaturity and cheating on my wife, then I'd have a locker room issue with my team "mates" for certain.

[RashanGary]

First of all, until we have all the facts it's just speculation. Secondly, to say that the women are older and should know better has nothing to do with this. When someone says no, age doesn't matter. Then again, of all the years i've known you, your derogatory comments toward women certainly do not surprise me.


Whatever opinions you have of me are just that, opinions. I feel good about how I treat the people around me. I met you, in person. I feel like I treated you the same way I treat all other people in this world and that's with respect and acceptance in all areas, even where we're different.

I think there's an opinion here that I'm sexist, racist and everything in between. I never grew up with different races, but my 7 year old son has a slightly more ethnicly diverse group. His best friend at school is black. I think it's beautiful to see that my son is free of the stereotypes and closed mindedness that I grew up around. When he described his best friend to me, he said he had black hair like me and dark skin like me (I'm a really tan, black haired white person). He's never heard a racist comment, so he judges his friends only on how they treat him.

And how he treats other kids (girls and boys). When I see what my son accomplishes at school I'm really happy for him because he excels so much. But that's a very distant 2nd to how wonderful of a person he is to the people around him.

Maybe I'm being the typical parent here with the wonderfully distorted view of their kids, but. . . For as amazing of a person as I see my son is turning out to be, I didn't do any of if. All I did was show unconditional love (loved him when he was good, loved him when he screwed up, loved him when he was the best, loved him when he was the worst). When I was frustrated, I laughed and hugged them. When I was amazed by him, I did the same thing. No matter what he turns out to be (a football player or ballerina), I am going to give him the same rock-steady love and support. I've never punished my son. I've never rewarded my son. I don't control his actions. All I do his provide love, honesty and support. And you know what, people who believe punishments and rewards teach kids how to act. . . . If they see my son, they're going to think I'm the most skilled punisher and rewarder on the planet because my son respects me in a way that I know by watching other parents is rare. But he's never been punished, ever. Never been rewarded, ever. . . He is what people are until you screw them up by trying to control them, and that is good to others around him.

So, for all of those who want to judge me, whatever. . . That's your choice. I can see how you do it. But the things I do in this world, the effect I have on other people in my life. . . I feel really good about myself. I listen, I learn, I change over time, hopefully for the better, but I'm going to keep being the best person I can be and be satisfied with that.

[retailguy]

The question is (for me at least) what does CMIII know that I don't know?

Until I know, I will defer to him, as I suspect he knows the true story.

[3irty1]

First of all, until we have all the facts it's just speculation. Secondly, to say that the women are older and should know better has nothing to do with this. When someone says no, age doesn't matter. Then again, of all the years i've known you, your derogatory comments toward women certainly do not surprise me.

This is the new sexism. Getting all protective and worked up enough to throw mud over some speculation by a guy on the internet who has a picture of Borat for a face. Women make up more than half of the world population. They don't need your protection--Is it you or JH that is treating them like the weaker sex?

[Scott Campbell]

Mathews was accused of roiding and denied it, but the press must have been terrifying for a kid hoping to be drafted, so, him publicly criticizing Underwood throws up a bunch of red flags. Either CMIII is a real prick, or Underwood is.


I like CM's comments. I think they send a pretty strong message to both Underwood and the rest of the team.

[pbmax]

We all saw the injustice done to Chumura when the girl's hymen was still intact.
Not this again. The hymen was partially intact. That condition can exist after intercourse. There are some women who need a doctor to completely separate the tissue.

Chmura provided and encouraged minors to consume alcohol. He then was alone in a bathroom with one, partially clothed. Notice that Mark said he would explain the truth about the entire circumstance and the bathroom at a later time (I don't believe he testified) and he has never done so that I am aware.

Regardless of her consent, or the inconsistent versions of the story told by people who were there, Chmura should have been nowhere near this girl or this party. Be mad at the prosecutor if you wish for bringing charges he could not prove. Chmura got exactly what his behavior deserved. Public condemnation. Very rarely is there such a clear cut case of legal innocence and public idiocy.

An assault can occur absent sexual intercourse and absent explicit threat of force. Why is it that so many posters are afraid of this fact? You need to have explicit consent or be very sure of your partner's wishes. This is not hard to do. Its easier to do if you do not try to pick up girls in bathrooms at parties where the underage are consuming alcohol.

There are some laws in the country about Statutory Rape and legal ages of consent (or the total years difference between the two parties) that can lead to ridiculous charges of crimes. There was an example of one a few years ago in Georgia or Alabama that ensnared a football or basketball player. But the sexual assault laws are not hard to navigate for people above the age of consent.

Or just have this contract handy:

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=219422&title=love-contract

[pbmax]

First of all, until we have all the facts it's just speculation. Secondly, to say that the women are older and should know better has nothing to do with this. When someone says no, age doesn't matter. Then again, of all the years i've known you, your derogatory comments toward women certainly do not surprise me.

This is the new sexism. Getting all protective and worked up enough to throw mud over some speculation by a guy on the internet who has a picture of Borat for a face. Women make up more than half of the world population. They don't need your protection--Is it you or JH that is treating them like the weaker sex?
So speculation so one sided it allows the poster to declare the result virtually conclusive is OK on the internet.

But pointing out the flaws in the conclusion is not OK on the internet?

[pbmax]

Is it just me or is the worst that Matthews says about the situation the word "dampened"?

He doesn't seem to be throwing Underwood under a very heavy bus, in that case. I do agree he is clearly separating out all the others from whatever involvement they might have had in the evening.

[Scott Campbell]

Damn, these girls are 31 and 33. I'm sorry, but Underwood is a 23 year old guy. Using common sense, if anyone is young and dumb here, it's Underwood. These are two grizzled vets, out on the town, like they probably have been a hundred times. They're alone, in a hotel room, with Brandon Underwood, getting sexually assaulted together.

31 and 33 is old enough to know how to say no and old enough to know they could get money out of this. I've never read one of these that read like a complete set up until this one. If Underwood did it, shame on him. Just reading what's available though, it sounds very suspicious.

First of all, until we have all the facts it's just speculation.


Well, we have some facts that make it seem a little unusual to me. 2 on 1 left me scratching my head. And their ages raised my eyebrows. But I'm not going to jump to any conclusions yet, but admit to being perplexed. Hopefully the authorities can conclusively get to the truth - whichever way that falls.

[Scott Campbell]

Is it just me or is the worst that Matthews says about the situation the word "dampened"?

He doesn't seem to be throwing Underwood under a very heavy bus, in that case. I do agree he is clearly separating out all the others from whatever involvement they might have had in the evening.


Underwood admitted to having sex with the two women. I suspect that is all that CM is commenting on, and I consider his statements totally appropriate given the uncertainty about the rest of what happened.

[Joemailman]

Have the women changed the part of their story that claims 2 men were involved? If 2 men were involved, why is only Underwood under investigation?

[Scott Campbell]

The question is (for me at least) what does CMIII know that I don't know?

Until I know, I will defer to him, as I suspect he knows the true story.


We all know that Underwood had sex with the 2 women, as he admitted it to investigators already. Given that everything else is uncertain, I think CM's comments are totally appropriate.

[pbmax]

Have the women changed the part of their story that claims 2 men were involved? If 2 men were involved, why is only Underwood under investigation?
I have not read it, but posted somewhere else was the claim that they had changed their statement at some point. But I have no source material.

[Tarlam!]

We all know that Underwood had sex with the 2 women, as he admitted it to investigators already. Given that everything else is uncertain, I think CM's comments are totally appropriate.

I think CMIII commenting on another player's sexual decisions to be inappropriate. He singles out "one player". I wouldn't have any issue with it except for that.

I can really understand how undesirable it is to have one's name associated with any criminal investigation. I can understand all six "cleared" players being firstly anxious then just pissed off that they were detained for questioning, especially at that hour.

I don't know Underwood, I don't know what went down in the Dells, I don't know shit. I highly doubt CMIII chooses to call out a young Bert if similar allegations were made.

[Scott Campbell]

I think CMIII commenting on another player's sexual decisions to be inappropriate. He singles out "one player". I wouldn't have any issue with it except for that.


I'd agree if it hadn't happened at company related function. He didn't single out anyone, and never used his name.

[vince]

Is it just me or is the worst that Matthews says about the situation the word "dampened"?

He doesn't seem to be throwing Underwood under a very heavy bus, in that case. I do agree he is clearly separating out all the others from whatever involvement they might have had in the evening.
It's quite possible that Matthews doesn't know what went on behind closed doors and just wants to get himself and the others out of the limelight here, so he said what he did. But he didn't say anything whatsoever to shed any light on Underwood's possible innocence. Here are the words he did say...

"black eye"
"mistake"
"unfortunate"
"wipe our hands clean"
"none of us that were here today were involved"
"the alleged actions of one individual put us in a bind"
"it is what it is"
"it aggravates us"
"we hope the best for him but that's really all we can do"

Not exactly a ringing endorsement. Perhaps it would be costly to Matthews reputation to support him in public at this point, and maybe Matthews is simply distancing himself from the infidelity, but he clearly could have gone to bat for him when his teammate is down if he thought it was appropriate.

Matthews let Underwood hang in the wind here. That's obviously not evidence of his guilt, but he did nothing whatsoever to suggest he's innocent. You would think a man of integrity would stick up for an innocent man.

[Scott Campbell]

.............but he clearly could have gone to bat for him when his teammate is down if he thought it was appropriate.



How exactly do you go to bat for a guy who admitted to having sex with 2 women at a company related function?

[Tarlam!]

I'd agree if it hadn't happened at company related function.

Sure, but when is the shift over? The tournie was done and dusted some hours previous and the boys were being boys, although very moderately by at least one account.

A poster over at JSO claims to have been at the event and claims to have met some of the players in attendance. He was nothing short of glowing in his recap, although he didn't name names.

At any rate the company wasn't negatively impacted the way Pittsburg was. The tournament won't go down in history the way Green Bay hot tubs has. If Underwood committed a crime, he'll get what he deserves. His wife has gotta be pissed.

[Scott Campbell]

Sure, but when is the shift over?


Especially for married guys, I don't think other players are ever going to get behind a guy having an orgy. Never gonna happen.

[Tarlam!]

I don't think other players are ever going to get behind a guy having an orgy. Never gonna happen.

No man I know will publicly endorse that behaviour, most will denounce it in front of their wives. But CMIII singled out one player. I would have more respect if he kept his comments generic and referred to the incident, rather than the player.

Calling a guy out forces the team to choose sides. That can't be good for the locker room dynamics.

[Scott Campbell]

I don't think other players are ever going to get behind a guy having an orgy. Never gonna happen.

No man I know will publicly endorse that behaviour, most will denounce it in front of their wives. But CMIII singled out one player. I would have more respect if he kept his comments generic and referred to the incident, rather than the player.

Calling a guy out forces the team to choose sides. That can't be good for the locker room dynamics.


Calling out a player for being stupid and shedding other players and the team in a bad light is a sign of leadership by my line of thinking. I appreciate Clay taking as much of a stand as he could.

[vince]

He's accused of assaulting them. Matthews can't defend what Underwood admitted to doing. What Underwood needs defending from is what he's accused of doing but he denies. If Matthews thought otherwise, he could have suggested that he was confident that things would turn out OK for him in some way.

It's total speculation, but if these girls were consenting to a three-way (which they may well have been), I'd suspect that some evidence of such a development would have been able to have been observed prior to their retirement to the bedroom. We've all been to parties like that before. The "players" are usually not too subtle about their intents at 3am after a drinking binge.

[Joemailman]

If CMIII (along with 5 others) got dragged into a story he had nothing to do with because of the actions of one guy, I think he had the right to point that out. I kind of got the sense from his comments that he doesn't have much use for Underwood in general, and isn't going to stick his neck out to defend him.

[Joemailman]

He's accused of assaulting them. Matthews can't defend what Underwood admitted to doing. What Underwood needs defending from is what he's accused of doing but he denies. If Matthews thought otherwise, he could have suggested that he was confident that things would turn out OK for him in some way.

It's total speculation, but if these girls were consenting to a three-way (which they may well have been), I'd suspect that some evidence of such a development would have been able to have been observed prior to their retirement to the bedroom. We've all been to parties like that before. The "players" are usually not too subtle about their intents at 3am after a drinking binge.

Is it certain that the other 6 players were back at the condo when the incident occurred? I know they were there when the police showed up, but is there a definite timeline of when the alleged assault actually occurred?

[vince]

I read somewhere that others in the neighborhood had complained about what sounded like a bachelor party at the condo. In fairness, that's all that can be said. So I'd say you're right Joe. It's possible that the other 6 guys arrived later and didn't see Underwood and the girls at all. My speculation above could be moot. That said, if that were the case, that would seem to be somehting that would be in Matthews best interests to be known because it would further separate him and the others from the incident.

[RashanGary]

I don't think Matthews comments are particularly or specifically damning to Underwood being a sex criminal.

Underwood is out cheating on his wife with a couple of 30+ women. My experience with people who sleep around at this age, they're not starry eyed teenies with visions of love, marriage and kids. They know the ropes, know the game. . .

A lot of people look down on that and won't want to support a team taht stand for that. The Packers moral standards go above the law. It goes to the moral expectation fo the fans who pay the ticket prices. These guys were at a charity event and now they look like hooligans because of what happened, illegal or not. . .

Time will tell, but Matthews words strike me more as a guy who's pissed that Underwood put a major damper on a great charity even and gave a black eye to the image of a bunch of great guys who don't deserve to be mentioned in that boat.

So yeah, just being in that spot, cheating on his wife, having an orgy. That's immature (because it hurts the image and football players need to be concerned with image). These guys forget fans pay their salary adn don't want to pay to watch dirt balls. It's immature and reckless to not recognize and respect that.

[vince]

I'd say that makes sense JH. What I would also say though, is that, while his words aren't necessarily damning, they are definitely not exonerating. That's really all we can say at this point.

[pbmax]

But he didn't say anything whatsoever to shed any light on Underwood's possible innocence.

Maybe I am missing the article with the quotes you are providing. But from the two JSO articles, Matthews uses most of those words to refer to the charity event, not the after hours escapades. The term "black eye" was used to describe what Matthews hoped wouldn't happen to the event, not the Packers, themselves or other players.

And if Matthews does not know anything about the incident (probably an overstatement, he probably saw something, even incidental) he would not help Underwood by providing details to the press. It is entirely possible that the players know nothing that would help exonerate Underwood if this is truly a he said-they said situation.

Underwood's misfortune (with fellow players) has more to do with causing six teammates to have their name published and be interviewed by the police than it does with having the other players throw him under the bus. Had he not involved them, then they might have been more publicly supportive.


"We had an outstanding showing, amazing donors there. Celebrities showed up. It was a great auction. Overall it was a great day," Matthews said. "One person's misjudgment really put a damper on it. Hopefully this doesn't put a black eye on the tournament and the foundation, but I think for the most part I think it worked out this year, and next year, just be a little more careful. Hopefully we can learn from this and make correct decisions next time."

[RashanGary]

I'd say that makes sense JH. What I would also say though, is that, while his words aren't necessarily damning, they are definitely not exonerating. That's really all we can say at this point.

Look what happens here when someone suggests maybe this guy didn't do it. Saying that is calling a potential rape victim a liar to some, although really, it's just considering a possibility.

Teh Packers PR is very smart. Those guys had a talking to of what not to say. I'll bet anything they all know not to suggest she's a liar (even if that suggestion is indirect). If she were a real victim, that would be very hurtful. They'd have womens rape associates throwing fits like you've never seen and it's a very real possibility she's a victim, so you cannot say in public that you don't think it happened. It's not fair to her and it's not smart.

On a message board though, I would think people here are mature enough to consider all possiblities without getting personal or angry about it, but that's not the case here even.

[3irty1]

So speculation so one sided it allows the poster to declare the result virtually conclusive is OK on the internet.

But pointing out the flaws in the conclusion is not OK on the internet?

JH merely painted a likely scenario based on what limited facts are given. The only conclusion he reached was that the situation was suspicious. If someone disagrees and wants to point out the flaws in that conclusion they should be able to do so without playing the sexist card on JH.

[vince]

I'm referring to the video on JSO pb. Matthews refers to the incident putting a black eye on the weekend. All the words I quoted were from the video, and they all referred to the effect of Underwood's actions on others.

[RashanGary]

I'm referring to the video on JSO pb. Matthews refers to the incident putting a black eye on the weekend. All the words I quoted were from the video, and they all referred to the effect of Underwood's actions on others.

Being in this situation, whether he's a sex criminal or not, is not up to the standards of the ticket holders. Teh Packers probably talked to these guys about how bad this makes them look, told them what not to say (so as not to offend certain groups) and gave them some suggested punch lines. If Underwood is not guilty, this is still a check against him. It just amkes the Packers look bad, PERIOD.

All guys are following a similar suit. Nobody's saying anything that has a chance to be used negatively. That's not accident. The Packers PR machine works and works well.

[retailguy]

So speculation so one sided it allows the poster to declare the result virtually conclusive is OK on the internet.

But pointing out the flaws in the conclusion is not OK on the internet?

JH merely painted a likely scenario based on what limited facts are given. The only conclusion he reached was that the situation was suspicious. If someone disagrees and wants to point out the flaws in that conclusion they should be able to do so without playing the sexist card on JH.

So you don't think posters earn reputations?

[Fritz]

Sure, but when is the shift over?


Especially for married guys, I don't think other players are ever going to get behind a guy having an orgy. Never gonna happen.

Scott, isn't that exactly what would happen at an orgy? Taking turns and all that?

[vince]

And if Matthews does not know anything about the incident (probably an overstatement, he probably saw something, even incidental) he would not help Underwood by providing details to the press. It is entirely possible that the players know nothing that would help exonerate Underwood if this is truly a he said-they said situation.
If Matthews wanted to show support for Underwood, he could have done so without giving details of what he knows to the press. He didn't want to do that. It doesn't mean that Underwood is guilty, that Matthews thinks he's guilty, or even that I think Underwood is guilty (I have no idea).

In my opinion, Matthews was less than supportive to Underwood. There are a lot of explanations for why he was that way.

[mngolf19]

A little off topic...I was reading one of the blogs on JSO about this and I made the mistake of reading the reader comments. Why is it that only morons post there? I get so upset reading those, but sometimes I can't stop myself. It's like gruesome crime scene photos. You know they're going to disturb you but you just have to look.

That's why I'm here. :lol:

[swede]

Sure, but when is the shift over?


Especially for married guys, I don't think other players are ever going to get behind a guy having an orgy. Never gonna happen.

Scott, isn't that exactly what would happen at an orgy? Taking turns and all that?

I think tim Allen's POV is instructive here.
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0786889020.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[vince]

I'm referring to the video on JSO pb. Matthews refers to the incident putting a black eye on the weekend. All the words I quoted were from the video, and they all referred to the effect of Underwood's actions on others.

Being in this situation, whether he's a sex criminal or not, is not up to the standards of the ticket holders. Teh Packers probably talked to these guys about how bad this makes them look, told them what not to say (so as not to offend certain groups) and gave them some suggested punch lines. If Underwood is not guilty, this is still a check against him. It just amkes the Packers look bad, PERIOD.

All guys are following a similar suit. Nobody's saying anything that has a chance to be used negatively. That's not accident. The Packers PR machine works and works well.I tend to think Matthews was speaking a little bit more off the cuff than you seem to be suggesting JH, but there's no doubt that they are separating themselves from him by their words here. It's quite possible that the team has coached them to do that, which would also be telling regarding Underwood's future. It'll be interesting to see the extent to which McCarthy shows support for his player here. He recently called Jolly a member of the "family" or something to that effect. Sexual assault allegations have deeper ramifications than even drug trafficking allegations I'd say.

[Fritz]

Sad insofar as MM was talking Underwood up as having worked hard and learned some things in the offseason about growing up.

I did not know Underwood was married. Oops. How's that going to work with the wife? "Honest, honey, I didn't rape them. It was a consensual three way!"

I am glad I am not Brandon Underwood.

[Scott Campbell]

He's accused of assaulting them. Matthews can't defend what Underwood admitted to doing. What Underwood needs defending from is what he's accused of doing but he denies. If Matthews thought otherwise, he could have suggested that he was confident that things would turn out OK for him in some way.


I think it would be inappropriate to comment prior to charges being filed.

[Scott Campbell]

Sure, but when is the shift over?


Especially for married guys, I don't think other players are ever going to get behind a guy having an orgy. Never gonna happen.

Scott, isn't that exactly what would happen at an orgy? Taking turns and all that?

:rs:

[vince]

Here's a new spin... The girls possibly really were whores, or at least exotic dancers for hire...

http://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/packers-have-a-tough-decsion-on-underwood

Packers Have A Tough Decsion On Underwood
By Aaron Nagler on Jun 07, 2010 with 30 Comments

Yes, Brandon Underwood is innocent until proven guilty. Yes, the young player has shown promise and plays a position where the Packers need all the help they can get.

But it’s pretty clear that, as of right now, Underwood is not the most popular guy on the team. On the contrary, reading between the lines – it sure sounds like his teammates hate the guy.

From Clay Matthews:
"One person’s misjudgment really put a damper on it. Hopefully this doesn’t put a black eye on the tournament and the foundation, but I think for the most part I think it worked out this year, and next year, just be a little more careful. Hopefully we can learn from this and make correct decisions next time."

That, my friends, is the cleaned up, nice, ready-for-the-press version of what Matthews and his teammates are saying about Underwood possibly hiring prostitutes (yes, that’s the word on the street) at a charity event. Off the record, the guys whose names were in the paper in relation to this incident are beyond pissed.

And this is a guy who apparently was not well liked BEFORE this all happened.

Now, teams are always going to have fractions and cliques inside them. That’s just human nature. And players can play with guys they hate – as long as they shut up and do their job.

I would look for the Packers to make a move sometime in the near future, whether it be a trade or a veteran free agent pickup, to bolster the secondary. The Packers used their draft to gird themselves for whatever is going to happen with Johnny Jolly – they don’t have that luxury now.

Of course the Packers could and probably will keep Underwood on the roster – for now. But don’t be shocked if he’s out the door sometime before or during training camp.

[vince]

Charges appear unlikely... too much "contradictory information."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37553469


Police Chief: Sex Assault Charges on Packers Player Could Be "Problematic"

Lake Delton's police chief said Monday sexual assault charges against a Packers player could be problematic because there's too much contradictory information. The Journal Sentinel cites sources saying that the player is CB Brandon Underwood.

MILWAUKEE - Lake Delton's police chief said Monday sexual assault charges against a Packers player could be problematic because there's too much contradictory information between the alleged victims and accused suspect. The police chief did not identify the player, though the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel cites three sources saying that the player is cornerback Brandon Underwood. Chief Tom Dorner says police aren't making a recommendation on charges. They'll simply turn over the police reports to Sauk County District Attorney Patricia Barrett, most likely Tuesday. Dorner says he will ask Barrett to expedite the case because of it's high profile nature. Seven Packers players were participating in a charity golf outing in Wisconsin Dells during the weekend and stayed together in a condo in nearby Lake Delton. Early Saturday morning police received a report that two Milwaukee women, ages 31 and 33, who'd met the players hours earlier at a bar had been sexually assaulted. The seven players were questioned by police and six were cleared.

Police said the six cleared players were backup quarterback Matt Flynn, safety Khalil Jones, guard Josh Sitton, fullback Korey Hall, linebacker Brad Jones and linebacker Clay Matthews. Dorner says police didn't believe they had enough probable cause to arrest the seventh player.

[RashanGary]

If this is true, the dots connect a little cleaner.

But prostitution more damning than sexual assault. Come on, Vince. Sexual assault is a horrible, violent crime. Paid sex, that's wrong, but should not be against the law IMHO.

[Joemailman]

at, my friends, is the cleaned up, nice, ready-for-the-press version of what Matthews and his teammates are saying about Underwood possibly hiring prostitutes (yes, that’s the word on the street) at a charity event. Off the record, the guys whose names were in the paper in relation to this incident are beyond pissed.

They may well be prostitutes, but the evidence is flimsy at best at this point. If they are, that makes Underwood look really bad, but makes it easier for him to make the case that any sex was consensual. The other problem though, is that prostitution is illegal, so perhaps Underwood is guilty of hiring a prostitute. Wasn't Matthews the one who rented the condo? If so, does he have any responsibility for what happens there? It could partially explain why he seems really ticked off.

[vince]

If this is true, the dots connect a little cleaner.

But prostitution more damning than sexual assault. Come on, Vince. Sexual assault is a horrible, violent crime. Paid sex, that's wrong, but should not be against the law IMHO.
I'm not saying that. He's still accused of sexual assault regardless. I'm saying that hiring prostitutes to come in is more damning than meeting a couple ladies at the bar and inviting them to the condo.

[vince]

Prostitutes or not, both his wife and the Packers have a tough decision to make. The Packers will be put through the public wringer regardless of what they do.

What a dumbfuck. And I don't use that term lightly.

[Tarlam!]

Calling out a player for being stupid and shedding other players and the team in a bad light is a sign of leadership by my line of thinking. I appreciate Clay taking as much of a stand as he could.

Favre was guilty of mass adultery, regularly being publicly drunk and disorderly and his immaturity level, well.... Where was the moral outrage during his heydays? Oh, how naive of me. It's part of his "legend".

The apparent double standards displayed on ethics in the USA never ceases to amaze me.

[Scott Campbell]

Calling out a player for being stupid and shedding other players and the team in a bad light is a sign of leadership by my line of thinking. I appreciate Clay taking as much of a stand as he could.

Favre was guilty of mass adultery, regularly being publicly drunk and disorderly and his immaturity level, well.... Where was the moral outrage during his heydays? Oh, how naive of me. It's part of his "legend".

The apparent double standards displayed on ethics in the USA never ceases to amaze me.


He was never accused of anything publicly. Apples and oranges.

[KYPack]

OK.

I wasn't going to weigh in on this deal, but here goes..

Remember this bit from the Bedard article on the now famous incident?

But Peter Bartell of New Berlin, who arrived at Wilderness about 3 a.m. with a group from the Ho-Chunk Casino, said he heard a boisterous party at the same cabin where the Packers stayed.

"To me it sounded like a bunch of drunks having a bachelor's party," he said.

It sounded like a bachelor party because that's what was happening. What will make a herd of young football players howl in the middle of the night after a golf outing?

Two strippers putting on a show for the boys.

Sounds like Brandon stayed around for an extra show. After it was over, those kind of girls like to get paid for their service. If you don't pay, they will damn sure try to get you to pay. I'm sure they threatened to call the cops and that's just what they did.

Now all the young Packers are paying for Brandon's extra show.

And, at Casa Underwood, cabinet doors are being slammed shut & Brandon is finding different places around the house to sleep. 'Cause Mrs Underwood is pretty pissed right now.

[Scott Campbell]

at, my friends, is the cleaned up, nice, ready-for-the-press version of what Matthews and his teammates are saying about Underwood possibly hiring prostitutes (yes, that’s the word on the street) at a charity event. Off the record, the guys whose names were in the paper in relation to this incident are beyond pissed.

They may well be prostitutes, but the evidence is flimsy at best at this point. If they are, that makes Underwood look really bad, but makes it easier for him to make the case that any sex was consensual. The other problem though, is that prostitution is illegal, so perhaps Underwood is guilty of hiring a prostitute. Wasn't Matthews the one who rented the condo? If so, does he have any responsibility for what happens there? It could partially explain why he seems really ticked off.


If they were hookers, it probably makes it easier to avoid the rape charges. But it also proves premeditated stupidity.



But what if Underwood wasn't the one that lined up the strippers?

[cheesner]

If they were whores, then the case becomes very problematic.

They cannot charge Underwood with rape - only shop lifting.

[vince]

All players are not treated equally, that's for sure Tar. by the fans and the teams.

For what it's worth, I think Brett Favre... nevermind

[pbmax]

So speculation so one sided it allows the poster to declare the result virtually conclusive is OK on the internet.

But pointing out the flaws in the conclusion is not OK on the internet?

JH merely painted a likely scenario based on what limited facts are given. The only conclusion he reached was that the situation was suspicious. If someone disagrees and wants to point out the flaws in that conclusion they should be able to do so without playing the sexist card on JH.
Likely? Only in a fevered imagination. That you acknowledge the limited scope of the facts we know make it unlikely his scenario is likely.

And its the second time this offseason that with limited facts he has gone straight to the woman saw an opportunity and therefore sought revenge/money.

[Scott Campbell]

If they were whores, then the case becomes very problematic.

They cannot charge Underwood with rape - only shop lifting.


:lol:

:rs:

[Tarlam!]

He was never accused of anything publicly. Apples and oranges.

That's trite. He admitted it in his numerous publications. Underwood is guilty of no more wrongdoing than Favre up to this point. Just because he's being accused doesn't make him guilty. Just because he denies it, doesn't meaN he's innocent.

I've publicly stated my opinions on sexual abuse. This case isn't a parrallel of other recent cases.

[RashanGary]

Either case, I was open to both any possible scenerio, I just gave my gut calls, the way it read at first sight. The first one, the court agreed, there wasn't enough evidence. The 2nd, if the things coming out now are true, could have been dead on the money.

I'd accept and appology, but I don't think you're man enough.

[Scott Campbell]

So speculation so one sided it allows the poster to declare the result virtually conclusive is OK on the internet.

But pointing out the flaws in the conclusion is not OK on the internet?

JH merely painted a likely scenario based on what limited facts are given. The only conclusion he reached was that the situation was suspicious. If someone disagrees and wants to point out the flaws in that conclusion they should be able to do so without playing the sexist card on JH.
Likely? Only in a fevered imagination. That you acknowledge the limited scope of the facts we know make it unlikely his scenario is likely.

And its the second time this offseason that with limited facts he has gone straight to the woman saw an opportunity and therefore sought revenge/money.



The "grizzled vets" comments were totally sexist. And perhaps fortuitous.


He smelled something fishy. No pun intended.

[pbmax]

And if Matthews does not know anything about the incident (probably an overstatement, he probably saw something, even incidental) he would not help Underwood by providing details to the press. It is entirely possible that the players know nothing that would help exonerate Underwood if this is truly a he said-they said situation.
If Matthews wanted to show support for Underwood, he could have done so without giving details of what he knows to the press. He didn't want to do that. It doesn't mean that Underwood is guilty, that Matthews thinks he's guilty, or even that I think Underwood is guilty (I have no idea).

In my opinion, Matthews was less than supportive to Underwood. There are a lot of explanations for why he was that way.
Yes, there are possibly a number of reasons why. But they all revolve around deflecting blame away from themselves. I did finally see the video from which you got the comments and it sounds just like Sitton's or Matthews' quoted remarks: that the situation was unfortunate and that they had NOTHING to do with it. Underwood is under the bus only so far as the players knocked him down trying to get as far away from the bus as possible.

I guess I don't see this behavior as indicative of anything other than the player's own embarrassment over being involved in this. Its difficult to come to Underwood's defense when you are backpedaling away from this as quickly as possible.

I think KYPack's reading of this sounds about right. Though, the hiring of entertainment needn't have involved all the players present.

[pbmax]

So speculation so one sided it allows the poster to declare the result virtually conclusive is OK on the internet.

But pointing out the flaws in the conclusion is not OK on the internet?

JH merely painted a likely scenario based on what limited facts are given. The only conclusion he reached was that the situation was suspicious. If someone disagrees and wants to point out the flaws in that conclusion they should be able to do so without playing the sexist card on JH.
Likely? Only in a fevered imagination. That you acknowledge the limited scope of the facts we know make it unlikely his scenario is likely.

And its the second time this offseason that with limited facts he has gone straight to the woman saw an opportunity and therefore sought revenge/money.



The "grizzled vets" comments were totally sexist. And perhaps fortuitous.


He smelled something fishy. No pun intended.
Even a blind squirrel finds an opportunistic, grizzled vet once in a while.

And JH using "grizzled vets" in commenting about a sexual assault might be him transferring his feelings about Brett into another topic. :lol:

Just a joke Justin, I apologize as I post it.

[vince]

I think KYPack's reading of this sounds about right. Though, the hiring of entertainment needn't have involved all the players present.Agreed.

[pbmax]

OK.

I wasn't going to weigh in on this deal, but here goes..

Remember this bit from the Bedard article on the now famous incident?

But Peter Bartell of New Berlin, who arrived at Wilderness about 3 a.m. with a group from the Ho-Chunk Casino, said he heard a boisterous party at the same cabin where the Packers stayed.

"To me it sounded like a bunch of drunks having a bachelor's party," he said.

It sounded like a bachelor party because that's what was happening. What will make a herd of young football players howl in the middle of the night after a golf outing?

Two strippers putting on a show for the boys.

Sounds like Brandon stayed around for an extra show. After it was over, those kind of girls like to get paid for their service. If you don't pay, they will damn sure try to get you to pay. I'm sure they threatened to call the cops and that's just what they did.

Now all the young Packers are paying for Brandon's extra show.

And, at Casa Underwood, cabinet doors are being slammed shut & Brandon is finding different places around the house to sleep. 'Cause Mrs Underwood is pretty pissed right now.
Maybe the players stuck Brandon with the bill?

[Scott Campbell]

He was never accused of anything publicly. Apples and oranges.

That's trite. He admitted it in his numerous publications. Underwood is guilty of no more wrongdoing than Favre up to this point. Just because he's being accused doesn't make him guilty. Just because he denies it, doesn't meaN he's innocent.


Tell that to his wife.

[RashanGary]

I know it's sensitive because girls are assaulted and people don't believe them all of the time.

when things don't make sense though, this is a discussion board. I'm not out to accuse anyone of anything or to minimize violent crime, but these topics are up for discussion and sometimes a story just doesn't read the way we want to believe. I'd never acccuse anyone of anything, but that thing just read wierd.

The Ben one read like a girl who got badly taken advantage of to me.


It's just an opinion. The next one might read completely different and my hunch might be guilty, but I'll still remain open to the other possibilities then.

[Tarlam!]

He was never accused of anything publicly. Apples and oranges.

That's trite. He admitted it in his numerous publications. Underwood is guilty of no more wrongdoing than Favre up to this point. Just because he's being accused doesn't make him guilty. Just because he denies it, doesn't meaN he's innocent.


Tell that to his wife.

Oh, Bert's wife knows by now and has forgiven him.

[KYPack]

Maybe the players stuck Brandon with the bill?

Nah.

Those women get the money for those shows up front.

Brandon arranged his own little command performance. He felt they were off the clock when they partied with him. They felt otherwise and used the long arm of the law to help them collect.

Note to all goofy stripper chicks. Once you call the cops, nobody gets paid any more money.

[vince]

It's a bad deal no matter how you slice it, but that is probably the best scenario possible under the circumstances.

[pbmax]

Maybe the players stuck Brandon with the bill?

Nah.

Those women get the money for those shows up front.

Brandon arranged his own little command performance. He felt they were off the clock when they partied with him. They felt otherwise and used the long arm of the law to help them collect.

Note to all goofy stripper chicks. Once you call the cops, nobody gets paid any more money.
Just a joke. Personally, I like paying half before and half after arrangements.

[Scott Campbell]

I know it's sensitive because girls are assaulted and people don't believe them all of the time.

when things don't make sense though, this is a discussion board. I'm not out to accuse anyone of anything or to minimize violent crime, but these topics are up for discussion and sometimes a story just doesn't read the way we want to believe. I'd never acccuse anyone of anything, but that thing just read wierd.

The Ben one read like a girl who got badly taken advantage of to me.


It's just an opinion. The next one might read completely different and my hunch might be guilty, but I'll still remain open to the other possibilities then.


Relax JH. Nobody is paying you to be politically correct.

[Scott Campbell]

Maybe the players stuck Brandon with the bill?

Nah.

Those women get the money for those shows up front.

Brandon arranged his own little command performance. He felt they were off the clock when they partied with him. They felt otherwise and used the long arm of the law to help them collect.

Note to all goofy stripper chicks. Once you call the cops, nobody gets paid any more money.
Just a joke. Personally, I like paying half before and half after arrangements.



.............3.5 minutes later.

[pbmax]

I know it's sensitive because girls are assaulted and people don't believe them all of the time.

when things don't make sense though, this is a discussion board. I'm not out to accuse anyone of anything or to minimize violent crime, but these topics are up for discussion and sometimes a story just doesn't read the way we want to believe. I'd never acccuse anyone of anything, but that thing just read wierd.

The Ben one read like a girl who got badly taken advantage of to me.


It's just an opinion. The next one might read completely different and my hunch might be guilty, but I'll still remain open to the other possibilities then.
Justin, while your summary here reads like a fair minded overview of the enlightened message board commenter, you comments about Ben's accuser were not about how she was badly taken advantage of. It was how an assault could not have taken place as there was not even the threat of force. And that if she truly felt threatened, she would have protested more vociferously. And your summary judgment that she was embarrassed and that was the motivation to level charges.

The only balancing act you did was on the level of vitriol to lay at the feet of the football player.

[pbmax]

Maybe the players stuck Brandon with the bill?

Nah.

Those women get the money for those shows up front.

Brandon arranged his own little command performance. He felt they were off the clock when they partied with him. They felt otherwise and used the long arm of the law to help them collect.

Note to all goofy stripper chicks. Once you call the cops, nobody gets paid any more money.
Just a joke. Personally, I like paying half before and half after arrangements.



.............3.5 minutes later.
Have we spoken on the phone before? :lol:

[KYPack]

Maybe the players stuck Brandon with the bill?

Nah.

Those women get the money for those shows up front.

Brandon arranged his own little command performance. He felt they were off the clock when they partied with him. They felt otherwise and used the long arm of the law to help them collect.

Note to all goofy stripper chicks. Once you call the cops, nobody gets paid any more money.
Just a joke. Personally, I like paying half before and half after arrangements.



.............3.5 minutes later.
Have we spoken on the phone before? :lol:

Ask him what he's wearing, PB.

[vince]

Underwood was reportedly (on the radio, no link) seen recruiting some grizzled vets at Cruisin' Chubbies, a popular gentleman's club in the Dells. No other players were reported to have been identified cruisin' at Chubbies.

[Scott Campbell]

Have we spoken on the phone before? :lol:

Ask him what he's wearing, PB.



I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual.

[Zool]

Have we spoken on the phone before? :lol:

Ask him what he's wearing, PB.



I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual.

Do you have anything in a low rise bikini, possibly mesh?

[pbmax]

Damn, these girls are 31 and 33. I'm sorry, but Underwood is a 23 year old guy. Using common sense, if anyone is young and dumb here, it's Underwood. These are two grizzled vets, out on the town, like they probably have been a hundred times. They're alone, in a hotel room, with Brandon Underwood, getting sexually assaulted together.

31 and 33 is old enough to know how to say no and old enough to know they could get money out of this. I've never read one of these that read like a complete set up until this one. If Underwood did it, shame on him. Just reading what's available though, it sounds very suspicious.
Funny, but I don't see the phrase "grizzled veteran stripper" in this post.

Though, in a way, setup could be accurate if KY has a good bead on things. What's the stripper equivalent of "dine and dash"?

[CaliforniaCheez]

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A TIME OUT OUT FROM THE STUPIDITY AND UNINFORMED SPECULATION!!

1) The alleged incident did not happen at the condo. The sheriff's spokesperson said it happened earlier.

2) When the other players said they don't know what happened and that they were not there. Stop assuming they witnessed what happened.

3) You have two women in their early 30's who traveled across the state from Milwaukee to be in the area and their versions of events.

4) The unnamed player said the incident was consensual. As pointed out earlier, in you read the law, consent is defined very narrowly and sexual assault is defined very broadly. It is the word of 2 against the word of one.

5) The Sauk County District Attorney is female. There are 4 assistant DA's and 2 of them are female.

6) The Sheriff's office released the names of those not involved to protect them and clear their names.
A report comes in and the Sheriff has to investigate. They did not choose to be involved,

7) Until the facts are known or more information comes out, Let's not have speculations that become rumors that become prejudices.

If Clay Matthews was not involved then he knows nothing about it and what he says on the matter does not matter except he was the liason for Packer involvement with the charity event.

8) Just because black guys get arrested at an extremely higher rate for sexual assault does not mean anything related to this investigation.


Calm down. Have patience.

[Scott Campbell]

WTF else is there to talk about?

[Joemailman]

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A TIME OUT OUT FROM THE STUPIDITY AND UNINFORMED SPECULATION!!

1) The alleged incident did not happen at the condo. The sheriff's spokesperson said it happened earlier.

Not sure what spokesperson you're referring to. However, the official police report indicates the alleged assault took place at the condo. It does not indicate what time the assault occurred. http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20100605/PKR01/100605041/1058/Update--Brandon-Underwood-is-Packers-player-under-investigation--reports-say


The investigation is expected to be turned over to the DA tomorrow.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/95794779.html

Forgive me for reading something as stupid and uninformed as a police report.

[RashanGary]

I never thought they were actual whores but I'm not really shocked after finding out. I think there is an implied experience level that by that age (31 and 33 respectively) pretty woman have enough control and handle on situations involving men (especially young men) that I would guess not to many get tricked and trapped by 23 year old men when they're out on the town. That's not to say it couldn't happen, just the age, what I know of how people mature, I had a hard time envisioning Underwood being able to A. trick them to get them alone and then B. assault them both sexually. They're onto the game, onto what a lot of men want. Even if Underwood is a phycho-brilliant premeditating predator, I think he's going to have a hard time manipulating a couple of 30+ grizzled vets into a position they don't want to be in after meeting them out on the town. They're just not that dumb.

I just was having a hard time envisioning the assault with the context given, but I was also open to being wrong on my hunch.

I would never say it if I was a writer for a paper. I would never say it around a possible victim. . . But on a message board, we discuss these types of situations, bounce possible scenerios around and I gave mine. I think it happens to be based in a good, reasonable understanding of people in those age groups and the logic I used applied really well to the context of early reports of this event. PB's comment about me not being smart enough to pick up garbage, I think it shows more about his intelligence than mine, especially after how it played out, but when I read it, yeah, I thought it was an uncalled for, low blow.

[pbmax]

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A TIME OUT OUT FROM THE STUPIDITY AND UNINFORMED SPECULATION!!
As Tim Harris once said: This ain't a tennis match!

Its a message board.

[Joemailman]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/95794779.html

Dorner said the two women changed their story at the onset of the investigation, saying at first they were assaulted by multiple people, then saying it was one person.

I have a feeling the fact that they had to change their story will lead to no charges being filed. Underwood will dodge a bullet, at least until he returns home to face his wife.

[pbmax]

PB's comment about me not being smart enough to pick up garbage, I think it shows more about his intelligence than mine, especially after how it played out, but when I read it, yeah, I thought it was an uncalled for, low blow.
I did not question your intelligence, just your ability to infer from limited observation. And I did apologize because it was harsh and out of the blue.

However, it very much remains to be seen who took advantage of who. Not all 31 year old grizzled stripper veterans are smart. Nor do they all look like Julia Roberts. If a scenario plays out like KY has surmised, then youngster Brandon took advantage of the grizzle stripper veterans.

[pbmax]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/95794779.html

Dorner said the two women changed their story at the onset of the investigation, saying at first they were assaulted by multiple people, then saying it was one person.

I have a feeling the fact that they had to change their story will lead to no charges being filed. Underwood will dodge a bullet, at least until he returns home to face his wife.
From this report:
Police said seven Packers were at a condo at the Wilderness Resort Golf Cabins in Lake Delton where a party was taking place and where the two women said the assaults occurred.

However:
Sources said the incident likely happened before the entire group returned to the cabin.

[pbmax]

8) Just because black guys get arrested at an extremely higher rate for sexual assault does not mean anything related to this investigation.
Can you source this?

[Joemailman]

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A TIME OUT OUT FROM THE STUPIDITY AND UNINFORMED SPECULATION!!

8) Just because black guys get arrested at an extremely higher rate for sexual assault does not mean anything related to this investigation.

Who said it did? Unless I missed something, you're the only one to bring race into this.

[pbmax]

That same article reports that the women traveled from Milwaukee to the area and met the player(s) at a bar. It does not specify if they were patronizing the bar or working at it. It does mention the establishment was Chubby's.

[RashanGary]

KY's scenario makes a lot of sense. Brandon could have easily stiffed them.



But note to all crazy football players. Pay that whore what she asks or she can make life miserable on you.

[vince]

I hadn't seen what Sitton said here earlier in the day This is what was notably absent from Matthews' interview.

http://packersnews.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100607/PKR01/100607145

I know Underwood is innocent when it comes to any legal issues,” Sitton said. “That’s my personal opinion about that.

[RashanGary]

Yeah, Vince, you were reading way too much into what Matthews didn't say and what he did say.

It's a sensitive topic. The Packers look bad no matter what. They were at a charity event and then this happens. It just sucks, so Matthews was disappointed in how it turned out for his event. I'm sure he was excited about his charity.

[Iron Mike]

Have we spoken on the phone before? :lol:

Ask him what he's wearing, PB.



I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual.

Do you have anything in a low rise bikini, possibly mesh?

HaHaHa!!! Nice avatar, Zool.

From Russia With The Love Bone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7JoWoUkceQ)

[pittstang5]

I don't have time to read all 7 pages of this thread and probably don't know all of the facts But no matter how you slice it, this looks bad for Underwood and whoever else was or might have been involved....not to mention the Packers as a whole. Hasn't anyone learned from Big Ben....you just don't put yourself in those types of situations....Period.

[MJZiggy]

First of all, until we have all the facts it's just speculation. Secondly, to say that the women are older and should know better has nothing to do with this. When someone says no, age doesn't matter. Then again, of all the years i've known you, your derogatory comments toward women certainly do not surprise me.

This is the new sexism. Getting all protective and worked up enough to throw mud over some speculation by a guy on the internet who has a picture of Borat for a face. Women make up more than half of the world population. They don't need your protection--Is it you or JH that is treating them like the weaker sex?

First things first, there's this. Women may outnumber men, but men still hold the power in this society and attempts to put women down and objectify them are a way of holding them out of power and yes, should be reacted to. The reaction is not sexism, the assuming that a woman who makes such an accusation is a whore (even though in this instance it does appear possibly to be true, you don't need to assume it from the get-go) is sexism by objectification. It intimates without saying as much that it's ok to assault them because they're less than you are. If I can't assault you, you can't assault me. If I put on a dildo and ram it up your ass, it's assault and (unless you're into that kind of thing) you're not a whore for making the accusation.

Now then, where was I? Oh right. The whores don't have a case and I kind of figured when they questioned Underwood and then let him go that the evidence might not be very strong or they'd have charged him that night. I have no problem with CMIII or any of the other guys disapproving of this behavior, though I wonder if they were disapproving while the women were at the party. The thing is, even if this were the first time something like this happened, and I'm not saying it isn't, he could easily wind up divorced from someone he could have had a wonderful marriage with otherwise. There is trust that could be irrevocably broken. Pissed doesn't cover that. I'm sure she's pissed, heartbroken and likely somewhat devastated. I feel really bad for her as she appears to be the one true victim here.

Tar, there's a world of difference between this and Favre, in that Favre, in his drunken womanizing days was not yet married to Deanna. It was after he'd gone to rehab and dried out that they married--I believe the year of the Superbowl win (or possibly the year after) when she left his bags on the doorstep. It was then that he cleaned up his act. Further, I hardly think that Favre would have needed to go to a place like "Chubbies" to get laid in his heyday.

[falco]

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A TIME OUT OUT FROM THE STUPIDITY

This is coming from the guy who condones drunk driving as long as it is out in the country...... :roll:

[falco]

All morons that can't decide when to call a cab should be encouraged to ride a motorcycle if they insist on driving drunk.



Driving the back roads under the stars is not the same as a DUI in big city traffic.


Let's get some facts straight before you start demanding the impossible of the guy.

[CaliforniaCheez]

Wow.

Driving in the wilderness

where there are no cabs

or streetlights

is different.


If you believe it is the same offense to drive with too much alcohol in Antarctica as it is in Tokyo, one can understand how inexcusable itis not to call a cab in Antarctica; and why zero tolerance policies come about.

Risk v. reward human decision making.

If there are no police to enforce traffic laws in the wilderness of Antartica has a crime taken place?

Havner was never charged with a crime, much to your bitter disappointment.

If you never have lived in an environment where people work out their own problems without bureaucrats and government institutions, I really pity you.

[Scott Campbell]

I got a DUI in Antarctica once.

[falco]

I got a DUI in Antarctica once.

:lol:

[CaliforniaCheez]

I got a DUI in Antarctica once.

From a nazi named falco I bet.

[Tarlam!]

Tar, there's a world of difference between this and Favre, in that Favre, in his drunken womanizing days was not yet married to Deanna. It was after he'd gone to rehab and dried out that they married--I believe the year of the Superbowl win (or possibly the year after) when she left his bags on the doorstep. It was then that he cleaned up his act. Further, I hardly think that Favre would have needed to go to a place like "Chubbies" to get laid in his heyday.

So, you're suggesting the fact that they lived in a defacto marriage (that was clearly intended to consummated) and had a baby girl in 1989 is irrelevant?

You're suggesting that B. Lorenzo gets a pass because he didn't need to pay for his adultery or that his preferred hunting grounds were classier establishments than Chubby's?

You know I love you Ziggy, but your double standards are just as nausiating to me as those of the others.

[Tarlam!]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d818820b6&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true


Police chief says women's changing statements hamper assault case

NFL.com Wire Reports
Police don't plan to recommend pressing charges against a Green Bay Packers player accused of sexual assault by two women who changed their statements, the chief overseeing the investigation said Monday.

Lake Delton Police Chief Tom Dorner said he expects to forward the investigation's findings to prosecutors by Tuesday, but he believes they would have a hard time proving a case.

"I think it's going to be a problem because there's too much information that contradicts between the alleged victims and the alleged suspect," Dorner said.

Officers were called early Saturday to a condominium in Lake Delton where seven Packers players were staying during a charity golf event. The women initially told investigators they were sexually assaulted by more than one Packer while other players held them down.

After the players were questioned, the women changed their statements to say only one person assaulted them, Dorner said Monday.

"It's obviously troubling they would make that statement originally and shortly into the investigation change it, a pretty important piece of information," Dorner said. "... It is weird."

Police cleared six of the seven players of wrongdoing. A seventh player whom police declined to identify and who hasn't been arrested remains under investigation.

Packers officials and teammates also refused to name the player involved, but the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, citing three sources familiar with the case, reported that it is second-year cornerback Brandon Underwood.

The six players who were cleared were quarterback Matt Flynn, linebackers Clay Matthews and Brad Jones, fullback Korey Hall, guard Josh Sitton and safety Khalil Jones.

Police also declined to identify the women, saying only that both are from Milwaukee. One is 31 years old, the other 33.

Sauk County District Attorney Patricia Barrett didn't immediately respond to a phone message seeking comment.

The women were examined at different hospitals by nurses trained in gathering sexual assault evidence, Dorner said. He said he didn't know the results. No weapons or restraints were used in the alleged assault, and investigators found no evidence of any drugs, including date rape drugs.

Police said all the Packers were drinking alcohol, but it wasn't clear if the women had been drinking.

"I suspect most everybody was probably consuming alcohol to some degree," Dorner said. "To what degree, I don't think there was anyone who was passed out or totally inebriated."

The women met several players at a Wisconsin Dells strip club, Dorner said. He said the women were patrons, not club employees. They drove back to the players' condo while at least some players took a shuttle bus from the club to the resort.

The women left the condo after the alleged assaults and contacted police from a nearby residence, Dorner said.

The NFL and the Packers are closely watching the case, which follows an offseason sexual-assault investigation involving one of the league's stars, Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger.

"There is an active law enforcement investigation, and we are monitoring developments," NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said of the Packers case in an e-mail Sunday. "As with any such incident, it will be reviewed under the league's personal-conduct policy."

Prosecutors didn't charge Roethlisberger in his case, but the league suspended him for six games on April 21 for violating its personal-conduct policy.


Matthews, who participated in a charity softball game Sunday along with several other players, expressed frustration about being linked to the investigation.

"All we were doing is being asked to talk about a specific incident, and that's what we did," Matthews said. "It's unfortunate and it aggravated us a bit, but you just have to put it behind you and move forward."

Flynn also wasn't happy about publicly named in the matter.

"I am upset that we didn't do anything and our names get thrown out there," the backup quarterback told reporters in Appleton on Sunday. "We went and answered as many questions as possible and tried to get it rectified as quickly as possible. There is nothing that I or we did that I am embarrassed about."

[Tarlam!]

DP

[vince]

Yeah, Vince, you were reading way too much into what Matthews didn't say and what he did say.
Actually JH, you and others may have read too much into what I said. I simply noted that Matthews didn't support Underwood in any way, and that was bad for him. In fact, he piled on at a time when he was at the lowest point and he could have used some support (not that he deserved it necessarily). That was noteworthy to me. I didn't say that meant Underwood was guilty. In fact I specfically said that it doesn't mean he's guilty.

Sitton did show some support for his teammate specifically regarding the assault charge that Matthews didn't.

If these girls were in fact exotic dancers (independent performing artists of course - not club employees. No club would expose themselves to the kind of risk these girls would bring them by employing them.) who came up to Chubby's from Milwaukee (The Dells isn't exactly swimming with resident strippers. Most of them are imported no doubt.) and if in fact they did provide a bachelor-party like performance for the players, and if the other players did partake in the performance including Matthews (Act 1 anyway), Underwood may well feel like he's been thrown under the bus and shown a lack of support by Matthews.

Underwood screwed up bigtime. I'm not arguing otherwise. His wife and family are the big losers here. What's fortunate (for lack of a better word) is that it appears that there aren't also two women whose lives are irrevocably damaged and there isn't a football player who will immediately get kicked out onto the street because of a sexual assault charge.

I understand Matthews name is on this whole event so he wants to distance himself from it. But his name isn't on the police report under the "accused of sexual assault" category, and considering what appears to have happened, Underwood didn't do much assaulting. Sitton called the assault charges "bogus" without condoning Underwood's actions – appropriate comments I’d say. Matthews left his teammate hanging in the wind with the noose tied firmly around his neck and misunderstandings everywhere.

Matthews presumably hooted and hollered with each act of girl-on-girl entertainment. Who wouldn’t? Underwood clearly took things too far and wronged many people for what he did, including Matthews and the rest of his teammates.

I’m not blaming Matthews for running for cover, but Sitton stepped up with some support for his teammate when he was down, even when he'd been somewhat victimized by him. I can respect that.

[wootah]

Matthews presumably hooted and hollered with each act of girl-on-girl entertainment. Who wouldn’t? Underwood clearly took things too far and wronged many people for what he did, including Matthews and the rest of his teammates.

I’m not blaming Matthews for running for cover, but Sitton stepped up with some support for his teammate when he was down, even when he'd been somewhat victimized by him. I can respect that.

Underwoods action not only put the other 7 players in a bad spot, but also the charity event that carries Clays name. IMO by firmly expressing his disapproval, Clay is trying to limit the financial damage for the event next year.

[vince]

Matthews presumably hooted and hollered with each act of girl-on-girl entertainment. Who wouldn’t? Underwood clearly took things too far and wronged many people for what he did, including Matthews and the rest of his teammates.

I’m not blaming Matthews for running for cover, but Sitton stepped up with some support for his teammate when he was down, even when he'd been somewhat victimized by him. I can respect that.

Underwoods action not only put the other 7 players in a bad spot, but also the charity event that carries Clays name. IMO by firmly expressing his disapproval, Clay is trying to limit the financial damage for the event next year.
Agreed. My whole point is that Sitton did that while at the same time stepping up for his teammate when misunderstandings abound about the nature of his action. Engaging with prostitutes is illegal and morally wrong in many people's eyes. Sexually assaulting women is a far, far more sinister offense in anyone's eyes.

[Tarlam!]

Underwoods action not only put the other 7 players in a bad spot, but also the charity event that carries Clays name. IMO by firmly expressing his disapproval, Clay is trying to limit the financial damage for the event next year.

Double standars everywhere I look. If Mathews and the others were so concerned they should have dragged Underwood off kicking and screaming if need be. At least Sitton has the format to back up a team mate.

The most likely scenario is they were all at their own private strip club on company business (if I use the same logic as SC) and one got carried away. The fact that Underwood was accused (maybe 'cause of what KY has infered) has put them all in the dogpound with their respective partners, has put them in the press and will get them some extra suicides by M3,

And, if it were B. Lorenzo...... :bs2:

[hoosier]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/95794779.html

Dorner said the two women changed their story at the onset of the investigation, saying at first they were assaulted by multiple people, then saying it was one person.

I have a feeling the fact that they had to change their story will lead to no charges being filed. Underwood will dodge a bullet, at least until he returns home to face his wife.

There is a logical explanation for this change of story: Underwood is just so darn quick on his feet that he fooled them into thinking he was two separate guys.

[wootah]

Double standars everywhere I look. If Mathews and the others were so concerned they should have dragged Underwood off kicking and screaming if need be. At least Sitton has the format to back up a team mate.

I disagree. You can disapprove of something without forcing someone else to follow your set of moral rules. It's called freedom. I think the whole team mate-concept is overblown. Underwood is not Clays brother, he's not his friend; he's a co-worker. This colleague put 7 other colleagues & a charity event in a bad position; there is no obligation there to back him up for his stupidities.

Finally, I blame TT for this; if he should have drafted Tim Tebow. If Tebow was there instead of Matty Flynn, this would never have happened!

[cheesner]

The inside story is there was one more Packer involved, Mason Crosby. Apparently Flynn held the younger of the two women down but Cosby missed wide left.

[vince]

I heard it was Colledge that held them both.

[retailguy]

I heard it was Colledge that held them both.

Actually, it was Colledge's job to block them from Underwood, and they both blew past him with a wicked outside move. Game over. :wink:

[KYPack]

I heard it was Colledge that held them both.

If it was holding, Bush (+ his name would help here) would have to be involved.

I think we are seeing this whole deal fade into the mists of time. Sexual battery is most likely off the table. Some stupid shit happened, but it ain't anything remotely involving forced sex. That ends the cops involvement and interest.

You are left with a stupid ballplayer and two drunken Milwaukee girls acting foolish in the Dells on a weekend summer nite. Ain't the first time it's happened and won't be the last.

The net is that Underwood now has to face Mrs Underwood and Packer management.

That ain't the fun part.

[SkinBasket]

I ain't judging no one until I see a picture of these two poor battered, be it by fist or phallus, women.

Are they ugly? Fat? White? Black? Do they look like his mom? Do they look like Lebron James' mom?

These are the questions I need answered. Until then, a quote from nutz from the bar last night comes to mind as we watched girls softball. A quote everyone in the place heard because the music stopped just as he started speaking. "It's okay to punch a woman if it's about sports."

[KYPack]

Still getting my brain around Skin and Nutz perusing girls softball at the bar...

Actually, I was looking for comments from one or both of you boys in this thread. You two are our "strip joint" experts, you know.

It now appears that these two girlies weren't strippers. They were probably the kind of chicks that GO to strip joints.

I totally agree with Skin on one point:

A photo of these two babes is absolutely essential to further discussion of "The Incident".

[vince]

I think there's little question that they were strippers KY. They may have told the police they ware just "patrons." They may have gotten recruited to do a private show before taking the stage, and I'm sure they weren't club employees, but that doesn't mean they weren't strippers. Whether or not they actually stripped that night on stage at Chubby's, they were making money that night one way or another.

Two girls from Milwaukee travelling up to Cruisin' Chubby's who end up at what sounded like a bacheolor party and both end up in a guy's bedroom and have bogus stories about events? If it smells fishy, it's a fish.

[Scott Campbell]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/08/report-brandon-underwood-could-be-charged-with-solitication-of-prostitution/


Grizzled vets might not have been too far off.

[vince]

Here's the original from Bill Michaels
http://www.620wtmj.com/sports/billmichaels/95858339.html


Packers Underwood Will Not Be Charged With Sexual Assault
By Bill Michaels
Story Created: Jun 8, 2010

(Story Updated: Jun 8, 2010 )

According to sources, Green Bay Packers cornerback Brandon Underwood will not be charged with sexual assault. The charge being considered is solicitation of prostitution. The two women who levied the allegations of sexual assault could be charged with prostitution.

Underwood met the two women at Chubby’s, a gentleman’s club outside of the Lake Delton area. Underwood solicited one or both of the women to return to his room. While an encounter between Underwood and one of the women was taking place, the other woman in question attempted to rob the Packers player. Once she was discovered, the two women were thrown out of the condo. That’s when the two women called police and reported the assault. The two women in question were seen laughing and “carrying on” after wards by witnesses.

The other Packer players who were named by the Lake Delton Police Department were not involved in any way other than being nearby at the time. The additional Packers questioned regarding the incident, their accounts of the evening and their whereabouts were all corroborated by additional witnesses.

The two women were said to be known prostitutes in the Milwaukee area.

[vince]

What's screwed up in this case (other than Underwood's inability to keep it in his pants) is the fact that the police released the names of the innocent witnesses in connection with the incident, thereby damaging their reputations unnecessarily. But they withheld Underwood's name, the one guy who's guilty of wrongdoing and was under investigation. They should have said nothing of the incident until/unless charges were filed. And at that point (if it arises), they should have named only Underwood. The other guys' names should have been completely kept out of the press, but instead they issue a press release announcing the investigation....

[CaliforniaCheez]

My, My,

Some people let the media get them all spun up into actually slandering the Green Bay Packers and their players. Shame.

A little patience is a good thing.

[LP]

the assuming that a woman who makes such an accusation is a whore

What about the assumption (by many here and I'm sure many around the country) that the man must be guilty because he was accused? I mean, they wouldn't have accused him if he hadn't done it right?

It's that pesky rush to judgement so as to prove how smart we are that seems to be the problem.

[packerbacker1234]

My, My,

Some people let the media get them all spun up into actually slandering the Green Bay Packers and their players. Shame.

A little patience is a good thing.

yeah... pretty sad really. Turned out the only real crime is him cheating on his wife, right? Thats a personal family matter and we shouldn't really be getting involved in it. For shame on those strippers. Did they really think they were going to get away with robbing him?

Anyways, glad it's sorted out, but still.

[falco]

My, My,

Some people let the media get them all spun up into actually slandering the Green Bay Packers and their players. Shame.

A little patience is a good thing.

Good thing you stepped in as the voice of reason. :roll:

[vince]

What are you talking about CC? I went back through this and the other thread and the only thing even close to slandering anyone that I can see is me calling Brandon Underwood a dumbfuck for his actions. I said that based on the knowledge that he admitted to cheating on his wife with two girls and managed to make that fact public. I stand by that description. Noone even remotely slandered the Packer organization that I saw.

Care to cite specific references for those blanket accusations?

[Scott Campbell]

My, My,

Some people let the media get them all spun up into actually slandering the Green Bay Packers and their players. Shame.

A little patience is a good thing.

yeah... pretty sad really. Turned out the only real crime is him cheating on his wife, right?


They're still considering charging him with solicitation. That's a crime BTW.

[Noodle]

yeah... pretty sad really. Turned out the only real crime is him cheating on his wife, right?


They're still considering charging him with solicitation. That's a crime BTW.

What's a crime? Solicitation or the fact that they are actually considering bringing a charge?

[Tarlam!]

Under the new NFL regime, this was a really stupid thing to do. I didn't know prostitution is illegal in WI.

With what has come out in the press so far that appears to be accurate, Goodell has enough to suspend or fine Underwood. It's not acceptable for NFL players to hang out with working girls if prostitution is illegal. He's admitted to sex, they have been (reliably?) identified as prositutes.

That's at very least a personal invite to NYC.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[Scott Campbell]

yeah... pretty sad really. Turned out the only real crime is him cheating on his wife, right?


They're still considering charging him with solicitation. That's a crime BTW.

What's a crime? Solicitation or the fact that they are actually considering bringing a charge?

:lol:

:rs:

[vince]

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A TIME OUT OUT FROM THE STUPIDITY AND UNINFORMED SPECULATION!!

Some people let the media get them all spun up into actually slandering the Green Bay Packers and their players. Shame.
CC, since you can’t seem to cite even one reference defending your defaming statements about contributors to this thread being stupid and slanderous (neither could I), I can only assume those defaming accusations to be false.

How ironic.

[pbmax]

My, My,

Some people let the media get them all spun up into actually slandering the Green Bay Packers and their players. Shame.

A little patience is a good thing.

yeah... pretty sad really. Turned out the only real crime is him cheating on his wife, right?


They're still considering charging him with solicitation. That's a crime BTW.
It might not be a crime in the wilderness. :lol:

For what its worth, LeRoy Butler was on local radio and mentioned he heard there had been a theft. So at least those two (Michels and Butler) are hearing the same rumor - or talking to each other.

Underwood is a dope. And Justin called the women taking advantage of him if Michels/Butler are right. Though that was after he tried to avail himself of an illegal business arrangement. Again, I am stunned that I might have more game than an NFL player. Just not the bank account.

[RashanGary]

Vince, you went on and on about how Matthews not defending Underwood was fishy. You sited the dumb-ass JS piece saying Underwood had a "problem" since coming out. When someone said Matthews might have been jsut pissed that hsi charity was undermined by this, you brought up how fishy it is that Matthews didn't defend his teammate.

You were on the exact opposite end of me. I said the whole thing seemed fishy but maybe he did do it. You kept talking about how fishy Underwood was, but were open to him not doing it.

Maybe you didn't go out and start a lynch mob, the same way I didn't call those girls whores until I found out they were whores, but you were clearly leaning toward Underwood doing it. That's how I read it anyway.

I know you listen to all of hte Packer interviews. The list you had in the beginning of this thread was spot on (except I would have taken Colledge out of it), but you ended up running with a lot of JS pimped drama that many of us know can't be trusted.

[CaliforniaCheez]

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A TIME OUT OUT FROM THE STUPIDITY AND UNINFORMED SPECULATION!!

Some people let the media get them all spun up into actually slandering the Green Bay Packers and their players. Shame.
CC, since you can’t seem to cite even one reference defending your defaming statements about contributors to this thread being stupid and slanderous (neither could I), I can only assume those defaming accusations to be false.

How ironic.

Okay, Mr unobservant. Just remember you are the one that demanded it and threw your fellow posters under the bus.
Fellow posters blame Vince for being thrown under the bus.


The Packers are no longer winning the offseason.

I think Jarrett Bush set this whole thing up.
I've read that he already has compromising pictures of TT, so he's obviously capable of such underhanded tactics.

Must be nice to have the cops stop by for a quick bong hit.

It seems like Clay Matthews is throwing his teammate under the bus a bit, either to cover his own ass or perhaps because he's representing the frustration he and his teammates feel for Underwood's repeated behavior.

Mathews was accused of roiding

Look what happens here when someone suggests maybe this guy didn't do it. Saying that is calling a potential rape victim a liar to some, you'd have womens rape associates throwing fits like you've never seen and it's a very real possibility she's a victim,

Matthews thinks he's guilty

No doubt that they are separating themselves from him by their words here. It's quite possible that the team has coached them to do that,

Prostitution is more damning than sexual assault.

Favre was guilty of mass adultery, regularly being publicly drunk and disorderly and his immaturity level, well.... Where was the moral outrage during his heydays? Oh, how naive of me. It's part of his "legend".

The apparent double standards displayed on ethics in the USA never ceases to amaze me.

Two strippers putting on a show for the boys.

Sounds like Brandon stayed around for an extra show. After it was over, those kind of girls like to get paid for their service. If you don't pay, they will damn sure try to get you to pay.

But what if Underwood wasn't the one that lined up the strippers?

Just because he denies it, doesn't meaN he's innocent.

The "grizzled vets" comments were totally sexist.

Maybe the players stuck Brandon with the bill?

Those women get the money for those shows up front.

Brandon arranged his own little command performance. He felt they were off the clock when they partied with him. They felt otherwise and used the long arm of the law to help them collect.

If Underwood is a phycho-brilliant premeditating predator, I think he's going to have a hard time manipulating a couple of 30+ grizzled vets into a position they don't want to be in after meeting them out on the town.

The Packers look bad no matter what.

They did provide a bachelor-party like performance for the players, and if the other players did partake in the performance including Matthews (Act 1 anyway), Underwood may well feel like he's been thrown under the bus and shown a lack of support by Matthews.

Matthews presumably hooted and hollered with each act of girl-on-girl entertainment. Who wouldn’t? Underwood clearly took things too far

I think there's little question that they were strippers KY. They may have told the police they ware just "patrons." They may have gotten recruited to do a private show before taking the stage,

Two girls from Milwaukee travelling up to Cruisin' Chubby's who end up at what sounded like a bacheolor party and both end up in a guy's bedroom

****************************************


In the end we have:

1) Brandon Underwood was the victim of theft.
2) The thieves lied to the police in an attempt to get away with the theft.


It probably would have been better had he allowed the theft to take place in anonimity.

Lessons learned:

1) Associating with criminals will always burn you.

2) No possession is worth sacrificing your reputation or harming your family.

3) Even if you are pregnant or have a newborn at home you still have to find ways of meeting your husbands needs.

4) Don't play another person's game.

5) Experience and treachery win over youth and strength.

6) Sometimes you are alone and have to make a decision. Think ahead.
Airplanes do not pull over and stop, taxicabs are only in populated areas, always have a plan B.

7) Embarrassment is one of women's primary weapons. Never underestimate it. Don't give them ammunition.

[RashanGary]

Take #3 out, you'll get a lot better responses.

[Scott Campbell]

3) Even if you are pregnant or have a newborn at home you still have to find ways of meeting your husbands needs.


:shock:

[MJZiggy]

the assuming that a woman who makes such an accusation is a whore

What about the assumption (by many here and I'm sure many around the country) that the man must be guilty because he was accused? I mean, they wouldn't have accused him if he hadn't done it right?

It's that pesky rush to judgement so as to prove how smart we are that seems to be the problem.

Have you considered that neither response is correct? Though the debate on the situation is quite interesting, wouldn't you agree?

[MJZiggy]

Tar, there's a world of difference between this and Favre, in that Favre, in his drunken womanizing days was not yet married to Deanna. It was after he'd gone to rehab and dried out that they married--I believe the year of the Superbowl win (or possibly the year after) when she left his bags on the doorstep. It was then that he cleaned up his act. Further, I hardly think that Favre would have needed to go to a place like "Chubbies" to get laid in his heyday.

So, you're suggesting the fact that they lived in a defacto marriage (that was clearly intended to consummated) and had a baby girl in 1989 is irrelevant?

You're suggesting that B. Lorenzo gets a pass because he didn't need to pay for his adultery or that his preferred hunting grounds were classier establishments than Chubby's?

You know I love you Ziggy, but your double standards are just as nausiating to me as those of the others.

I don't believe he had any intention to marry her until he found his suitcase on the doorstep. How old was that little girl before her parents wed?

Deanna forced his hand. If she hadn't, I truly believe he'd still be chasing women every night and probably would have drank himself out of football. Yes, I see that as different from Underwood's situation.

And for the record, if it had been him and there was a more clear cut case of assault (like Pantsontheground Ben) I'd have the same reaction. Being a quarterback does not permit one to force himself on whomever he wants. I'd have advocated tying his dick around the jail bars and letting folks slap his ball on the way back to their cells.

[RashanGary]

Yeah, fucking around on the mother of your children and commitment of your life is just fine.

Before my wife and I were married, I wonder how she might have felt?


As far as I'm concerned the commitment means more than the paper and Favre was committed when he was doing that to his lover and mother of his children.

We are all human though. He deserves credit for admitting his problems and working it out. Hopefully he can do that with his more recent errors in judgment, but something tells me he's so full of himself, he'll always blame everyone else.

[MJZiggy]

Yeah, fucking around on the mother of your children and commitment of your life is just fine.

Before my wife and I were married, I wonder how she might have felt?


As far as I'm concerned the commitment means more than the paper and Favre was committed when he was doing that to his lover and mother of his children.

No, your g/f should have left you like Deanna should or could have left Brett. Why is this so hard for you to understand. I don't believe he was committed until she forced him to be. The baby was not exactly planned. She wasn't a statement of commitment and if you think otherwise, you need to reread her book as Brett didn't stick around after she was born. He went off to college and left them behind. He didn't marry Deanna when the baby showed up. Why do you think that might be?

They weren't married which makes it different. Much easier for her to just dump you and walk away when you aren't married, but after you've stood in a church in front of your families and all your friends and declared in front of whomever you worship that you'd NEVER do that it becomes a bit of a different story. You're not just her boyfriend now who she'd be pissed at. You're her husband and it sort of trashed her whole idea of what her life is about. The one who made that promise in front of everyone has now violated her trust and brought another woman into her sacred union. That's not the same as being pissed at your boyfriend.

[RashanGary]

Whatever you say, oh holy one ;)

[falco]

3) Even if you are pregnant or have a newborn at home you still have to find ways of meeting your husbands needs.


:shock:

hee hee this thread is awesome. keep it coming my friend.

[Joemailman]

3) Even if you are pregnant or have a newborn at home you still have to find ways of meeting your husbands needs.


:shock:

Yep.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/09/10/dining/deen.480.jpg

[CaliforniaCheez]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJntBTx_KKs&feature=related

[vince]

Cheez this is dumb. I assumed you know the meaning of the word slander and/or were using the word consistent with it's meaning.

Notwithstanding the fact that slander covers oral communication and libel the written, there is a requirement that there be a statement of fact (not opinion) and further that the statement be provably false at the time it was made. not just critical. In other words, they have to knowingly lie (or it must be demonstrated that they should have known the factual statement was a lie) about that person or group.

I'll give you the couple sarcastic jokes not intended as factual about Bush just for the hell of it. Not one of the many items you listed qualifies as slander. Many of them are critical. Many of them are opinions. None of them are slander. in fact the majority of them although critical, are demonstrably accurate - not that I care enough to take the time to demonstrate them all. A bunch of them aren't even statements. Others are listed completely out of context and/or have had portions deleted so as to suggest a statement that wasn't made.

[vince]

Vince, you went on and on about how Matthews not defending Underwood was fishy. You sited the dumb-ass JS piece saying Underwood had a "problem" since coming out. When someone said Matthews might have been jsut pissed that hsi charity was undermined by this, you brought up how fishy it is that Matthews didn't defend his teammate.

You were on the exact opposite end of me. I said the whole thing seemed fishy but maybe he did do it. You kept talking about how fishy Underwood was, but were open to him not doing it.

Maybe you didn't go out and start a lynch mob, the same way I didn't call those girls whores until I found out they were whores, but you were clearly leaning toward Underwood doing it. That's how I read it anyway.

I know you listen to all of hte Packer interviews. The list you had in the beginning of this thread was spot on (except I would have taken Colledge out of it), but you ended up running with a lot of JS pimped drama that many of us know can't be trusted.
I understand that you read what I said that way, JH. Let me try to clarify once more.

I didn't have a conclusion about Underwood's guilt or innocence until it came out that the girls were prostitutes. At that point, as you said, the dots connected together pretty well, at least in my (and yours and others) opinion.

That said, one of the first reactions (back on page 1 of the other thread) I had when this came out was that the charges seemed highly questionable. Throughout the time, there wasn't enough information in my mind to conclude anything with certainty, nor was there enough to substantively change that initial response. Your reading that I thought he was guilty was not accurate. I certainly considered the possibility however which is reasonable of anyone not in denial of a specific conclusion.

I noted that it's possible that an assault could have happened, particularly if a lot of alcolhol was involved. If the girls had passed out, and then sexual advances occur, that's assault as I understand it. That was possible based on the information available at that time, but that didn't change my feeling - like yours - that assault seemed unlikely. I absolutely agreed with the gist of what you said in that regard, although I tend to let posts that I agree with and don't have a lot to add to stand for themselves.

Regarding Matthews, I said his comments were "condemning," and they were in my opinion. I didn't think they meant Underwood was guilty of assault and I said as much.

The point I'm trying to make, which I feel I've beaten to death trying to clarify is that Matthews - like Sitton - very likely knew what happened, yet he did nothing to suggest that the accusations were anything but true. Given the damage that such accusations have on an athlete's image, that's pretty noteworthy. That was and is my opinion about Matthews' statements, not Underwood's actions.

People challenged that with reasons why he might not step up for Underwood. I understand and agree with all those reasons. I was clarifying what I thought about what he said and didn't say, and what and how he might have said something different if he knew Underwood is innocent of the accusations - which I don't think there is any question he did.

I said it then and I'll say it again. Matthews could have IMO separated himself from the incident as he did AND let the public know the charges were bogus - just like Sitton did. I said he somewhat threw Underwood under the bus (with my belief that the accusations were questionable) and that was challenged. I tried to clarify. Hopefully, Sitton's (better IMO)comments and approach illustrate that.

[vince]

Regarding the JSO pimped drama, I have been very critical of certain reporters at JSO on numerous occassions when I thought they tried to manufacture drama. This case didn't need any pimping. It was built in. I have to say that I thought they were very responsible in reporting on these issues, respecting the need to source and research any and all claims, while at the same time thoroughly serving the public's right/demand to know. Given the accusations, and even the events as they actually occurred, citing multiple team members' comments about Underwood being a problem is highly relevant. Hardly bullshit drama pimping.

Unlike other articles that include uninformed opinions, subjective hand-picked facts, shotty reporting and incompetent interviews, they were very careful in this case to explicitly source their information - and explicitly state that as well. While they provided comprehensive coverage, they didn't report on the results of their investigations until their information was appropriately verified.

They haven't always done that for sure, but to their credit, I thought they did that here.

[Tarlam!]

I don't believe he was committed until she forced him to be. The baby was not exactly planned. She wasn't a statement of commitment and if you think otherwise, you need to reread her book as Brett didn't stick around after she was born. He went off to college and left them behind. He didn't marry Deanna when the baby showed up. Why do you think that might be?

They weren't married which makes it different. Much easier for her to just dump you and walk away when you aren't married, but after you've stood in a church in front of your families and all your friends and declared in front of whomever you worship that you'd NEVER do that it becomes a bit of a different story. You're not just her boyfriend now who she'd be pissed at. You're her husband and it sort of trashed her whole idea of what her life is about. The one who made that promise in front of everyone has now violated her trust and brought another woman into her sacred union. That's not the same as being pissed at your boyfriend.

Wow, Ziggy. I can't believe how far off this is. THEY WERE LIVING IN A DEFACTO MARRIAGE!! Otherwise, how could she have packed his bags and forced this issue? If he never intended on marrying her, why did he eventually do it? It would have been easier for him to dumpo her and the girl than vice versa. He had the financial means. He was king of the hill and could have gotten any number of non child rearing replacements from any NFL city he visited.

You'd be correct if she lived in a house next door, but they shared the same table and bed. B. Lorenzo cheated on his fiancé AND his baby girl. OFTEN. He was immature, drunk and disorderly in public. OFTEN! He risked his mid-long term income. OFTEN. You're giving him a pass, because they didn't exchange VOWS? Are you seriously making that case?

This has NOTHING to do with sexual assault, yet you tie that in here as to what you would certainly punish a QB for. Well, guess what, Underood is no more guilty of that than B. Lorenzo. I am astounded you would even bring that comparison up. The only true differences are that Underwood isn't a star and even if he cecomes one, he doesn't play QB. To validate the difference, ask yourself whom you'd prefer replacing in a crisis: Rodgers or Woodsen?

Secondly, B. Lorenzo wasn't suspected publicly of soliciting prostitution, but until the latter came up, Underwoods conduct was no more distasteful than that other guy's and while Underwood was being crucified on here, B. Lorenzo has been sainted.

That, ladies and gentlen, smacks of double standards to me.

[GrnBay007]

I don't believe he was committed until she forced him to be. The baby was not exactly planned. She wasn't a statement of commitment and if you think otherwise, you need to reread her book as Brett didn't stick around after she was born. He went off to college and left them behind. He didn't marry Deanna when the baby showed up. Why do you think that might be?

They weren't married which makes it different. Much easier for her to just dump you and walk away when you aren't married, but after you've stood in a church in front of your families and all your friends and declared in front of whomever you worship that you'd NEVER do that it becomes a bit of a different story. You're not just her boyfriend now who she'd be pissed at. You're her husband and it sort of trashed her whole idea of what her life is about. The one who made that promise in front of everyone has now violated her trust and brought another woman into her sacred union. That's not the same as being pissed at your boyfriend.

Wow, Ziggy. I can't believe how far off this is. THEY WERE LIVING IN A DEFACTO MARRIAGE!! Otherwise, how could she have packed his bags and forced this issue? If he never intended on marrying her, why did he eventually do it? It would have been easier for him to dumpo her and the girl than vice versa. He had the financial means. He was king of the hill and could have gotten any number of non child rearing replacements from any NFL city he visited.

You'd be correct if she lived in a house next door, but they shared the same table and bed. B. Lorenzo cheated on his fiancé AND his baby girl. OFTEN. He was immature, drunk and disorderly in public. OFTEN! He risked his mid-long term income. OFTEN. You're giving him a pass, because they didn't exchange VOWS? Are you seriously making that case?

This has NOTHING to do with sexual assault, yet you tie that in here as to what you would certainly punish a QB for. Well, guess what, Underood is no more guilty of that than B. Lorenzo. I am astounded you would even bring that comparison up. The only true differences are that Underwood isn't a star and even if he cecomes one, he doesn't play QB. To validate the difference, ask yourself whom you'd prefer replacing in a crisis: Rodgers or Woodsen?

Secondly, B. Lorenzo wasn't suspected publicly of soliciting prostitution, but until the latter came up, Underwoods conduct was no more distasteful than that other guy's and while Underwood was being crucified on here, B. Lorenzo has been sainted.

That, ladies and gentlen, smacks of double standards to me.

It may smack of double standards now, but it sure didn't before he was in the purple. C'mon Tar........you've been around JSO and this board as long as me ...or almost. NOBODY dogged on BF's behavior when he was winning game for GB. This comparison is the most hypocritical thing I've ever read on here!!!!!!

[Tarlam!]

NOBODY dogged on BF's behavior when he was winning game for GB. This comparison is the most hypocritical thing I've ever read on here!!!!!!

THAT IS EXACTLY MY POINT!!! That is what I consider to be the double standard. That is why I believe the finger pointing at any player not named Brett Lorenzo Favre is so damned hypocritical.

I found BLF's wild days pleasantly entertaining. I am indifferent to Underwood, because he's not a super star, while others are highly critical. I am guilty of double standards as anybody in that case.

[pbmax]

Okay, Mr unobservant (Cheeze is referencing Vince here, not your friendly neighborhood pbmax). Just remember you are the one that demanded it and threw your fellow posters under the bus.
Fellow posters blame Vince for being thrown under the bus.

The Packers are no longer winning the offseason.
I completely stand by this assertion of jocularity.

And Underwood is a dope if he hired prostitutes or strippers. That was the major point of most posters. It just took a while to get there. Trust us Cheeze, we know we are full of gorgonzola.

[pbmax]

3) Even if you are pregnant or have a newborn at home you still have to find ways of meeting your husbands needs.


:shock:

Yep.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/09/10/dining/deen.480.jpg

I take it you're really hungry?

[RashanGary]

Whatever the case, Vince, all of your posts revolved around the possiblity of him doing it, not the possibility of him being innocent. Some people were on the opposite end.


And like you, I could have easily made a post when everything was done saying I was unsure. I was unsure, but I had a way I was leaning and I would have admittted it if I was wrong.

You can back away from the lean you had like it never happened. Maybe you're being honest with yourself, but I was here. You were eating up the, "Underwood has a "problem"" stuff from unnamed sources and the Matthews didn't defend him stuff. Then the evil looking picture on the JS site. . . The whole thing, the stuff they chose to report "he has a problem" but not going into any detail with what he has a problem with. The evil picture. . . It was just the media being the media and you were eating it up.

[RashanGary]

And yep, the Bert stuff is very hypocritical from most fans. Most fans love you if you're good, hate you if you're bad.

Robert Ferguson was a great guy by all accounts, a hard worker and a good example in the lockerroom. He was a bad player, so people personally hated him.

Bert was a bad example in the lockerroom, a drug addict, cheater on the mother of his children, generally disgusting dude, but he was good at football so women and men loved him.

If people havent' found out that fans are prone to believing what they want to believe over reality, sorry on them.

[vince]

Whatever the case, Vince, all of your posts revolved around the possiblity of him doing it, not the possibility of him being innocent. Some people were on the opposite end.


And like you, I could have easily made a post when everything was done saying I was unsure. I was unsure, but I had a way I was leaning and I would have admittted it if I was wrong.

You can back away from the lean you had like it never happened. Maybe you're being honest with yourself, but I was here. You were eating up the, "Underwood has a "problem"" stuff from unnamed sources and the Matthews didn't defend him stuff. Then the evil looking picture on the JS site. . . The whole thing, the stuff they chose to report "he has a problem" but not going into any detail with what he has a problem with. The evil picture. . . It was just the media being the media and you were eating it up.That's simply untrue JH. I stated up front that I thought the charges were highly questionable and looked at both sides of the evidence in what I believe was a balanced way. Your read that I thought Underwood was guilty of assault is simply incorrect. I thought and stated that he was in trouble and his actions were dumb without a doubt, and he is. That's very different than thinking he assaulted the girls. I specifically avoided coming to any conclusion - regarding assault - until it came out that the girls were for hire.

JH, I appreciate your willingness to make projections when you feel like you have enough information to make a gut assessment. Others seem to resent that for some reason. I think you are more knowledgeable and consume more information than you are usually given credit for having simply because you fly from the seat of your pants when you write. And you go with your gut. Others won't want to agree with this and/or will resent it, but I'd say you're usually right. I may well respect your insight and perspective as much or more than anyone else here, even when I may disagree with you.

I was consistently critical of Underwood's actions. I remain critical of them. He used very poor judgement and caused serious damage to his home life, to other Packers and to the Packer organization. You read more into that than was intended.

[Patler]

Whatever the case, Vince, all of your posts revolved around the possiblity of him doing it, not the possibility of him being innocent. Some people were on the opposite end.


Using the word "innocent" is a little strong for Underwood's involvement. The facts appear to indicate that the entire situation was put into motion because of his actions. He put himself into a situation that commonly has bad results, either immediately or belatedly. He multiplied it by two. He brought it to the doorsteps of six team mates.

But for Underwood, none of this would have happened.

"Innocent"? Hardly.

[Scott Campbell]

It may smack of double standards now, but it sure didn't before he was in the purple. C'mon Tar........you've been around JSO and this board as long as me ...or almost. NOBODY dogged on BF's behavior when he was winning game for GB. This comparison is the most hypocritical thing I've ever read on here!!!!!!


Bulldog did.

[Scott Campbell]

Maybe this is wrong, but I still giggle at the phrase "grizzled vets". Every time. :lol:

[Bretsky]

It may smack of double standards now, but it sure didn't before he was in the purple. C'mon Tar........you've been around JSO and this board as long as me ...or almost. NOBODY dogged on BF's behavior when he was winning game for GB. This comparison is the most hypocritical thing I've ever read on here!!!!!!


Bulldog did.


good memory.....Bulldog use to dog Favre and AJ Hawk pretty consistently
They were Wist's Nick Barnett

[TheRaven]

I guess we are finally a legit NFL team now.

[Joemailman]

Underwood apologized to his teammates in team meeting today.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/95988369.html

It's a start. I'm pulling for him. I sense that although he's made some bad decisions, he's not a bad guy. Still, he needs to start showing some responsibility in his actions. Hope he does.

[Fritz]

3) Even if you are pregnant or have a newborn at home you still have to find ways of meeting your husbands needs.


:shock:

Yep.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/09/10/dining/deen.480.jpg

I take it you're really hungry?

By golly ol' Paula looks ready to fill ALL of her hubby's needs. Heck, when she gets a young buck on her show she looks about ready to fill his needs too.

And not just with gorgonzola.

[Scott Campbell]

Green Bay Packers CB Brandon Underwood apologizes for role in alleged Lake Delton sex assault


http://packersnews.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100609/PKR01/100609055

[MJZiggy]

I don't believe he was committed until she forced him to be. The baby was not exactly planned. She wasn't a statement of commitment and if you think otherwise, you need to reread her book as Brett didn't stick around after she was born. He went off to college and left them behind. He didn't marry Deanna when the baby showed up. Why do you think that might be?

They weren't married which makes it different. Much easier for her to just dump you and walk away when you aren't married, but after you've stood in a church in front of your families and all your friends and declared in front of whomever you worship that you'd NEVER do that it becomes a bit of a different story. You're not just her boyfriend now who she'd be pissed at. You're her husband and it sort of trashed her whole idea of what her life is about. The one who made that promise in front of everyone has now violated her trust and brought another woman into her sacred union. That's not the same as being pissed at your boyfriend.

Wow, Ziggy. I can't believe how far off this is. THEY WERE LIVING IN A DEFACTO MARRIAGE!! Otherwise, how could she have packed his bags and forced this issue? If he never intended on marrying her, why did he eventually do it? It would have been easier for him to dumpo her and the girl than vice versa. He had the financial means. He was king of the hill and could have gotten any number of non child rearing replacements from any NFL city he visited.

You'd be correct if she lived in a house next door, but they shared the same table and bed. B. Lorenzo cheated on his fiancé AND his baby girl. OFTEN. He was immature, drunk and disorderly in public. OFTEN! He risked his mid-long term income. OFTEN. You're giving him a pass, because they didn't exchange VOWS? Are you seriously making that case?

This has NOTHING to do with sexual assault, yet you tie that in here as to what you would certainly punish a QB for. Well, guess what, Underood is no more guilty of that than B. Lorenzo. I am astounded you would even bring that comparison up. The only true differences are that Underwood isn't a star and even if he cecomes one, he doesn't play QB. To validate the difference, ask yourself whom you'd prefer replacing in a crisis: Rodgers or Woodsen?

Secondly, B. Lorenzo wasn't suspected publicly of soliciting prostitution, but until the latter came up, Underwoods conduct was no more distasteful than that other guy's and while Underwood was being crucified on here, B. Lorenzo has been sainted.

That, ladies and gentlen, smacks of double standards to me.

Tossing a guy out on his ass can have a cold-water-on-the-face effect. I'm not saying any more than that if if she hadn't forced his hand by throwing his drunk ass to the curb, he likely wouldn't be married today as it didn't happen until she made him.

Don't accuse me of liking Favre's behavior when he was a Packer. You didn't know me when he cheated on Deanna and I can like the player he became without liking the behavior. And part of the reason you've never had to have this discussion is that Ol' Brett didn't get caught or accused by anyone which Underwood did which is why sexual assault came up now, remember? The reason Favre gets a pass with so many people is not because the behavior was ever acceptable, but because he'd cleaned up his act considerably and became a much better person (at least until the end-stage drama). I'd always given him a ton of credit for that, but it doesn't excuse the fact that he'd behaved like an idiot for the first part of his career and deserved to be left by his girlfriend regardless whether he did--and it doesn't make him married until he was. Sorry, there's a difference. In one case it's adultery. In the other, it's idiocy.

[Tarlam!]

Don't accuse me of liking Favre's behavior when he was a Packer. You didn't know me when he cheated on Deanna and I can like the player he became without liking the behavior.

I'm not. You're defending the player and his behaviour by doggedly insisting the baby and engagement meant nothing. Yet, you criticise another player for similar shortcomings because of a legal document (both players had given a moral promise). You raised your criticism, as did many others, before it was clear he was suspected for solicitation.

Favre was already a star before he publicly cleaned up his act. So claiming you liked "the player he became" is a red flag for me.



Sorry, there's a difference. In one case it's adultery. In the other, it's idiocy.

I'm sure you would have honoured that difference yourself had you been in Deanna's position with a baby on your arm and having to face the whispers behind your back about, that inevitabley were there.

[MJZiggy]

Don't accuse me of liking Favre's behavior when he was a Packer. You didn't know me when he cheated on Deanna and I can like the player he became without liking the behavior.

I'm not. You're defending the player and his behaviour by doggedly insisting the baby and engagement meant nothing. Yet, you criticise another player for similar shortcomings because of a legal document (both players had given a moral promise). You raised your criticism, as did many others, before it was clear he was suspected for solicitation.

Favre was already a star before he publicly cleaned up his act. So claiming you liked "the player he became" is a red flag for me.



Sorry, there's a difference. In one case it's adultery. In the other, it's idiocy.

I'm sure you would have honoured that difference yourself had you been in Deanna's position with a baby on your arm and having to face the whispers behind your back about, that inevitabley were there.

I'm not defending anyone. They were both despicable. I'm trying to tell you that I don't believe he made a promise to her. He knocked her up and then cheated on her until the day she tossed his bags on the doorstep. That to my mind isn't much of a commitment. They weren't engaged, they weren't married. She was simply putting up with his shit. When she decided not to any longer, then she suddenly became worthy of a proposal. Not until. You talk of me being in her position. I were in Deanna's position, I'd have been long gone and collecting a BUTTLOAD of child support. I don't put up with that kind of trash. I have more self respect than that.

I further didn't say I liked the "player" he became. I said I liked the player (on the field) but not the behavior. Then I said I could appreciate the changes he made to his life and the improvement in the person he became. How is this so difficult for you to grasp. Nobody's behavior was ok.

Underwood did make a promise, however. He was not just engaged, but married. Apparently I put more stock in the legal document and the ring on the finger than you. And with Underwood, it wasn't whispers behind her back. It was a police report and a week on the news.

[Scott Campbell]

Moral equivalency arguments are pretty absurd. What Underwood did was wrong, and the matter still under consideration for solicitation charges being filed. And all of this has NOTHING to do with Bert whoring around 15 years ago. NOTHING.

T's line of thinking is headed right back to Harlan's "Would you shoot teens stealing beer out of your garage?"

[Tarlam!]

My line of thinking is what I said it is. If Favre's name (at the beginning of his GBP career) were to be replaced with Underwood's, Mathews wouldn't have thrown him under a bus.

Double standards.

[Scott Campbell]

My line of thinking is what I said it is. If Favre's name (at the beginning of his GBP career) were to be replaced with Underwood's, Mathews wouldn't have thrown him under a bus.

Double standards.



Would you shoot teens stealing beer? :lol:



And your speculation about what Mathews might or might not have done if he could magically be teleported back in time 17 years, and then magically have Favre hire a couple of grizzled vet hookers who magically get caught stealing from him during an act that never happened, and then he magically gets investigated by the Lake Delton police department when were not sure if Bert has ever been in Lake Delton.......................it's magically delicious. But it's pure speculation on your part, and not relevant.

[Scott Campbell]

If Favre's name (at the beginning of his GBP career) were to be replaced with Underwood's, Mathews wouldn't have thrown him under a bus.


What was Clay supposed to say - he was only 6 years old at the time.

[Scott Campbell]

My line of thinking is what I said it is. If Favre's name (at the beginning of his GBP career) were to be replaced with Underwood's, Mathews wouldn't have thrown him under a bus.

Double standards.



And just to beat a dead horse to death, let's review what you've just done here.


1) You've created a fictional situation. (Favre hires hookers, and time machines)
2) You've projected a fictional reaction to the fictional situation. (Time machine Clay Mathews remains silent)
3) You then cast moral judgment on the fictional reaction to the fictional situation. (your double standards comment)


How DARE time traveling Clay Mathews have such a pretend reaction to such a hypothetical situation!

[Tarlam!]

SC, you're very clever, but obviously not clever enough to understand the comparison. Frankly, I don't give a toss.

My fork is in it.

[3irty1]

I remember hearing rumors about Favre cheating from people who saw him out in Green Bay but I must have missed all the real facts because I don't know anything about Favre's history with his wife.

If he really cheated and everyone knows it, it must have been in thet media right? Can anyone dig up a news story? Does she talk about it in her book? Where can I read more about this?

[ThunderDan]

I remember hearing rumors about Favre cheating from people who saw him out in Green Bay but I must have missed all the real facts because I don't know anything about Favre's history with his wife.

If he really cheated and everyone knows it, it must have been in thet media right? Can anyone dig up a news story? Does she talk about it in her book? Where can I read more about this?

I saw him on Water St in Milwaukee with Chewy mid 90s. Not Deanna. From behavior, kissing/groping, there is no doubt he was out and about.

[pbmax]

Whatever the case, Vince, all of your posts revolved around the possiblity of him doing it, not the possibility of him being innocent. Some people were on the opposite end.


Using the word "innocent" is a little strong for Underwood's involvement. The facts appear to indicate that the entire situation was put into motion because of his actions. He put himself into a situation that commonly has bad results, either immediately or belatedly. He multiplied it by two. He brought it to the doorsteps of six team mates.

But for Underwood, none of this would have happened.

"Innocent"? Hardly.
This.

[pbmax]

Favre's situation was different because off both the player he was AND the way he went about it.

No news organization was going to run the story while he was that successful AND was unmarried. I have no doubt that was purposeful (if not initially, then in over the course of time). As long as he stayed clear of violations of the law (or league rules), he was inoculated by his play and his status (single guy). The only time any of this got aired was when he was busted for Vicodin and after they went quasi public after she threatened to throw him out of the house or stop carousing. Its unclear for me if he ever stopped the cheating or drinking completely.

Tar is right that this is essentially BS and he should have been called on it much sooner. But MJ is right that in society currently, the only people in a position to complain and make a stink are his family (who would seem to have been enabling the behavior) and Deanna, who tolerated it (and thereby also enabled it). The team could not have cared less as long as he was not in the papers.

As a man, I have no idea how she tolerated it for so long. but there was a child involved and lots and lots of cash.

[pbmax]

GBPG's Demovsky has reported money was paid by Underwood to the women. This was prior to one of the women trying to increase their profitability while the other distracted him with the sales pitch.

[Scott Campbell]

I just went back in time to 1181, and Clay Mathews just called out Genghis Khan during his rookie year for raping and pillaging the village of Lake Delton, Mongolia. I'm not sure if charges were ever filed.



In unrelated news, McCarthy seems happy with his pad level.


http://bizarroroby.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/genghis_khan.jpg

[Bossman641]

I remember hearing rumors about Favre cheating from people who saw him out in Green Bay but I must have missed all the real facts because I don't know anything about Favre's history with his wife.

If he really cheated and everyone knows it, it must have been in thet media right? Can anyone dig up a news story? Does she talk about it in her book? Where can I read more about this?

I don't know any firsthand stories, but have heard the same rumors. It was a lot different then though - no 24 hour sports news, no cell phone cameras and videos to catch him in the act, no blogs to post those pictures on.

[bobblehead]

Moral equivalency arguments are pretty absurd. What Underwood did was wrong, and the matter still under consideration for solicitation charges being filed. And all of this has NOTHING to do with Bert whoring around 15 years ago. NOTHING.

T's line of thinking is headed right back to Harlan's "Would you shoot teens stealing beer out of your garage?"

I'd empty my clip and reload....what was the point again??

[Scott Campbell]

....what was the point again??


Exactly.

[Joemailman]

I remember hearing rumors about Favre cheating from people who saw him out in Green Bay but I must have missed all the real facts because I don't know anything about Favre's history with his wife.

If he really cheated and everyone knows it, it must have been in thet media right? Can anyone dig up a news story? Does she talk about it in her book? Where can I read more about this?

I don't know any firsthand stories, but have heard the same rumors. It was a lot different then though - no 24 hour sports news, no cell phone cameras and videos to catch him in the act, no blogs to post those pictures on.

Plus, being a starting NFL Quarterback, he didn't have to pay for it.

[Guiness]

:talk:

All this talk.

I can't believe we don't have pictures of the grizzled vets yet!

THIS THREAD IS USELESS WITHOUT PICS!

:lol:

[Joemailman]

:talk:

All this talk.

I can't believe we don't have pictures of the grizzled vets yet!

THIS THREAD IS USELESS WITHOUT PICS!

:lol:

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/12/16/128739292549920981.jpg

[swede]

:talk:

All this talk.

I can't believe we don't have pictures of the grizzled vets yet!

THIS THREAD IS USELESS WITHOUT PICS!

:lol:

Earlier in the day at one of the many water parks in the Dells, a grizzled vet shows how to snap on a strang bakini!

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z236/dsteenswede44/36.jpg

[mraynrand]

I were in Deanna's position, I'd have been long gone and collecting a BUTTLOAD of child support.

This thread should have ended with BUTTLOAD

[Patler]

GBPG's Demovsky has reported money was paid by Underwood to the women. This was prior to one of the women trying to increase their profitability while the other distracted him with the sales pitch.

Can Underwood sue for breech of contract?
In this situation an oral contract should be enforceable. :oops:

[Fritz]

Patler, you are a bad boy.

[CaliforniaCheez]

Grizzled Vets Victimize Young Packers player.

www.BSnews.com/sports/NFL/2010060902

Brandon Underwood foiled an attempted theft upon him when a 2 person team of thieves tried to steal his money while the other distracted him.

After the plot was foiled the theives made a false report to law enforcement in an attempt to embarrass Underwood for his crime prevention efforts. This plan failed as much as the theft. The 2 person theft team has been described as grizzled veterans by those not close to the situation.

Brandon Underwood has been praised by Green Bay Packers coach Mike McCarthy for the progress made this off season. When asked about coach McCarthy's comments Cornerback Brandon Underwood said that it was due to high hormonal levels this offseason.

"My wife has been pregnant this offseason so the playground was closed. She recently gave birth to our son Blake so until she recovers the playground is still closed. All that hard work this offseason was just an outgrowth of getting out of the house and wanting to bust loose a little bit."

As to being in the right place at the right time to stop the theives, He said
"Stress had been building up and I was looking for a little release when I encountered the theives."

Whether it is the increased testosterone or not; Brandon Underwood has had a big offseason and is seeking an enlarged postion with the team..

He feels preventing crime is a duty of all citizens. As the Packers cornerback modestly said "A man's got to do what a man's got to do."

Some individuals and pro-crime groups criticized Underwood for his actions in stopping the theives.

[Iron Mike]

:talk:

All this talk.

I can't believe we don't have pictures of the grizzled vets yet!

THIS THREAD IS USELESS WITHOUT PICS!

:lol:

You asked for it......Garbage Can, here we come!!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v739/mike_zankle/aquanetta.jpg

[Fritz]

Saw this headline in the Press Gazette:

"Green Bay Packers NT B.J. Raji's goal: 'Just cause havoc'"

This concerns me. Is he going to be investigated for sexual assault? For having codeined-up cough syrup?

Don't do it, BJ!