How long will he be a Packer?

[Patler]

Where do you stand on Brandon Underwood's future with the Packers?

If he isn't charged, I suspect he will go into camp, and we will hear from the coaches how well Lee, Bell, Ford and Shields are doing. Little will be said of Underwood, other than he is "trying" but he has a lot of competition for a spot. The final cutdown list will come out, and Underwood's name will be on it. The coaches will talk of how much the others stepped up, their ST potential, etc. It may be true, but it won't be the whole story. Factors I considered are these:

- The coaching staff was very disappointed in his effort last year and unusually critical about a rookie.
- He apparently rubbed a lot of teammates the wrong way from the start, based on recent comments.
- MM tried to bolster his ego, and put him on the spot for effort, a coaching ploy more than fact, I suspect.
- Underwood is not so inherently talented as to warrant a big risk by the team. (Contrast with Jolly).
- The Packers will choose to rid themselves of him quietly, rather than "because of" last weekend. They may want to do it now, and that might satisfy one group of fans, but to do so would oppose other fans who will raise questions of punishing him even if no crime was charged, the presumption of innocence, youthful indiscretions, etc. Cutting him at the final cutdown defuses all of that.

If he is charged by the DA, he will be gone much sooner.

[Scott Campbell]

- Underwood is not so inherently talented as to warrant a big risk by the team. (Contrast with Jolly).



I haven't seen him play a whole lot yet, so it's tough to say. And I guess it depends on if he really made a big jump since last year as McCarthy said recently.

I think they're short handed at CB, and I'm not sure if this incident reached a threshold of bad behavior that he can't recover from. I guess it depends on how much previous baggage he was carrying around.

[vince]

Tough call for me between the last two options. Right now, I hope Bell steps up, and you can't be convinced that he'll ultimately change his spots. I think they'll cut him in the final cuts.

[sharpe1027]

If they can get him to look good in some preseason games, I think he's a prime candidate for a late-round/conditional pick trade. A change of scenery might be good for everyone involved.

[Patler]

If they can get him to look good in some preseason games, I think he's a prime candidate for a late-round/conditional pick trade. A change of scenery might be good for everyone involved.

That would be ideal, but I think somewhat unlikely. For him to really be able to concentrate on football and give his best effort will be a real challenge. I doubt he will have a happy and supportive wife in the immediate future, and from the talk of the coaches last year, effort and dedication were not his strengths to begin with.

As for a trading partner? I think he would have to show an awful lot for anyone to give up a pick for him, if they think he will be waived anyway. The NFL just doesn't have a lot of trades except at draft time. I suspect the attitudes of an interested GM might be, "If I can get him for nothing, I'll take a look; but I'm not willing to give up anything just to get to know him at this point."

[Scott Campbell]

“The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated”.



We'll see.

[Patler]

“The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated”.



We'll see.

We don't get to DECIDE ?? :shock: :shock: :lol:

[sharpe1027]

That would be ideal, but I think somewhat unlikely. For him to really be able to concentrate on football and give his best effort will be a real challenge. I doubt he will have a happy and supportive wife in the immediate future, and from the talk of the coaches last year, effort and dedication were not his strengths to begin with.

As for a trading partner? I think he would have to show an awful lot for anyone to give up a pick for him, if they think he will be waived anyway. The NFL just doesn't have a lot of trades except at draft time. I suspect the attitudes of an interested GM might be, "If I can get him for nothing, I'll take a look; but I'm not willing to give up anything just to get to know him at this point."

It would all depend upon his perceived value. If he was good enough, an interested GM might not think he could be gotten for nothing because the Packers would probably not cut him. A team might offer a conditional draft pick that means very little if he doesn't work out for them.

[RashanGary]

My initial guess is not very long, might not even make the team this year.


But, he's young in every meaningful sense of the word. He has a chance if he plays well and flys straight.

[Patler]

That would be ideal, but I think somewhat unlikely. For him to really be able to concentrate on football and give his best effort will be a real challenge. I doubt he will have a happy and supportive wife in the immediate future, and from the talk of the coaches last year, effort and dedication were not his strengths to begin with.

As for a trading partner? I think he would have to show an awful lot for anyone to give up a pick for him, if they think he will be waived anyway. The NFL just doesn't have a lot of trades except at draft time. I suspect the attitudes of an interested GM might be, "If I can get him for nothing, I'll take a look; but I'm not willing to give up anything just to get to know him at this point."

It would all depend upon his perceived value. If he was good enough, an interested GM might not think he could be gotten for nothing because the Packers would probably not cut him. A team might offer a conditional draft pick that means very little if he doesn't work out for them.

Sure, every trade depends on perceived value. But how often does that happen for any 6th round draft pick, let alone one with the baggage Underwood will have. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that saying I think it is very, very unlikely for a lot of reasons.

Besides, if he show so much that someone else will want him that much, the Packers will probably keep him!! :lol:

[get louder at lambeau]

Looks like the charges might be bunk. The girls reportedly changed their stories from a bunch of Packers holding them down to just Underwood.

[sharpe1027]

Sure, every trade depends on perceived value. But how often does that happen for any 6th round draft pick, let alone one with the baggage Underwood will have. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that saying I think it is very, very unlikely for a lot of reasons.

Besides, if he show so much that someone else will want him that much, the Packers will probably keep him!! :lol:

You say potato, I say potato.

If the Packers don't want to keep him because he has pissed off his teammates and the coaches, but he shows enough promise, he would be a prime candidate for a trade. I don't think it is a forgone conclusion, but stranger things have happened ... we traded for Grant even though he wasn't drafted in any round and was buried so deep on the depth chart I doubt the Giants coaches even knew he was still there.

Anyway, I didn't intend to argue semantics about the percentage likelihood of it happening. It just seems to make sense and to be a decent solution for everyone.

[BF4MVP]

The way McCarthy was talking about him recently leads me to believe he'll make it..We'll see how this whole thing turns out, though.

[cheesner]

I think if they decide now to get rid of him, they won't go through all those motions only to dump him on the final cutdown for 2 reasons.

1. Cutting him now would send a much clearer message to all on the team, those in the future on the team, the league, and Packer fans.

2. Cutting him later would only decrease the reps for others and tie up a roster spot that never had a chance anyway.



I think, that Underwood will not be charged and will be on the team all season. He will probably be given a stern warning to keep his nose clean or he will be gone.

[Patler]

The way McCarthy was talking about him recently leads me to believe he'll make it..We'll see how this whole thing turns out, though.

I'm getting a feeling this may have been a coaching ploy by MM, talk up the player's effort and new found maturity in the media and challenge him to live up to it. I'm not convinced it was based on fact.

[CaliforniaCheez]

I suspect Harris will be on the PUP at the begining of the season.

With Blackmon moving to safety the following CB might make the final roster.

Woodson
Williams
Underwood
Lee

Safety
Bigby
Collins
Burnett
Blackmon

I bet they go with 8 DB's until Harris returns.

[Patler]

I think if they decide now to get rid of him, they won't go through all those motions only to dump him on the final cutdown for 2 reasons.

1. Cutting him now would send a much clearer message to all on the team, those in the future on the team, the league, and Packer fans.

2. Cutting him later would only decrease the reps for others and tie up a roster spot that never had a chance anyway.



I think, that Underwood will not be charged and will be on the team all season. He will probably be given a stern warning to keep his nose clean or he will be gone.

I have to admit, I originally thought as you do.

I leaned toward your reason #1, but decided to discount it because I don't think the current roster really needs the message. The Steelers needed to send a message to their squad, and did. If others were "with" Underwood in his shenanigans, I would tend to agree. But it seems the other 6 had no involvement at all.

Your reason # 2 won't be an issue early in camp. Harris will be held out and Woodson doesn't need the reps. At some positions the Packers have had the opposite problems in early camp, not enough healthy bodies to take all the available reps in a meaningful way. MM has even skipped planned drills because of it. As time goes on, they will control who gets what snaps and whether Underwood takes any quality time away from others.

They keep players around for mop-up duty anyway. It's a little different than when they had 3 and 4 cutdowns during camp. Now they go from 75 to 53 in the final cut. They will have lots of guys with no chance all the time up to when final cuts are made.

I think the last cutdown makes sense for a couple more reasons. It will give the Packers a chance to second guess themselves, in case he really does learn from this experience. Also, if they are going into the season with a bunch of their top corners nursing injuries, they might be willing to keep Underwood while they sift through the last cuts from other teams.

[vince]

Another reason I don't think they'll cut Underwood immediately in the absence of a sexual assault charge is that it exposes the team to accusations of double standards as it relates to the team's handling of Jolly.

If Underwood does get charged with solicitation, that could change of course.

[Patler]

Another reason I don't think they'll cut Underwood immediately in the absence of a sexual assault charge is that it exposes the team to accusations of double standards as it relates to the team's handling of Jolly.

If Underwood does get charged with solicitation, that could change of course.

I agree. If he isn't charged, as I said initially, I think he will get cut at the final cutdown (assuming reasonable CB health at the time). If he would have been charged with some type of sexual assault, I think he would have been gone sooner. The possible charge of solicitation throws in a new wrinkle.

In the end, I think he is a goner, regardless.

[CaliforniaCheez]

How about a list of names kept instead of him? That may change your mind.

Has Lee or Bell really shown more talent? I do not think so.

[Patler]

How about a list of names kept instead of him? That may change your mind.

Has Lee or Bell really shown more talent? I do not think so.

I don't think the question is have they shown more talent, the key question is, have they shown less? I think a tie, or anything close to a tie, goes to anyone other than Underwood at this point.

Underwood showed nothing last year, and I thought he was on thin ice at the end of last year anyway. I think it was Witt who late in the season commented that Underwood was no different than he was at the start of camp, and that it was unusual for a rookie to show no improvement during his rookie season. He commented on commitment to improving. I thought it was somewhat unusually harsh for a low round rookie.

Wasn't Bell playing ahead of Underwood at the end of the season last year?

[Patler]

How about a list of names kept instead of him? That may change your mind.

Has Lee or Bell really shown more talent? I do not think so.

I already gave you the list in my first post starting this poll: :)


If he isn't charged, I suspect he will go into camp, and we will hear from the coaches how well Lee, Bell, Ford and Shields are doing. Little will be said of Underwood, other than he is "trying" but he has a lot of competition for a spot.

Lee - more talented, higher draft pick, injury problems.
Ford- talked up a bit last year. Played ahead of Underwood at times.
Bell - I think was playing ahead of Underwood at the end of the season.
Shields - blazing speed, potential return man may get him a spot.

I wouldn't have been surprised for any of them to come out ahead of Underwood even before last weekend.

[Fritz]

It all depends on how much talent he has that we have not seen because it has not been developed. If the coaching staff really thinks he's got the talent to be an NFL starter, i think that if he escapes major trouble they'll give him one more year to get his act together. They don't want to cut him and have him grow up somewhere else.

If he's a NFL backup, then unless he comes into camp humble and hardworking, he'll be gone.

That's what I think.

[CaliforniaCheez]

Well Patler, I would not call Mike McCarthy a liar.

I will wait and to see the evidence on the field during the preseason.

[Patler]

Well Patler, I would not call Mike McCarthy a liar.

I will wait and to see the evidence on the field during the preseason.

I didn't call him a "liar", I called him a "coach". :lol: :lol:

Coaches use motivational techniques that others might consider "lies" in a literal sense, just like ad agencies do. Its called "puffery" in advertising.

[Patler]

Well Patler, I would not call Mike McCarthy a liar.

I will wait and to see the evidence on the field during the preseason.

We'll all wait to see, I just thought a poll of people's feelings might be interesting. Just my opinion as of now, but I think he is a goner. Personally, I hope the kid learns, keeps his nose clean, and becomes a better player than a 6th rounder is expected to be.

I never felt the same way about Jolly. I expected the team would hang on to him until they had no real choice. Of course, his problems came after his second season and after he had showed performance on the field. But I got a different sense about him from the team even early on. They talked about his effort on the field as a rookie, and that in GB he was all about football. They mentioned early that his problems came when he got around influences from his younger years.

I sensed real frustration with Underwood last year, when they really needed him to step up. It was a golden opportunity for him with all the injuries, and I sensed that he did little to take advantage of that opportunity.

Now he puts himself and six teammates in a bad situation at a function they attended as Packers. It wasn't him on his own time, so to speak. He was there in his role as a Packer, even if it was after the event. The team (coaches, GM, etc.) will take it a little more personally than they would have if he was simply on his own when he did it.

Put it all together, and I just don't see a lot of patience or tolerance coming his way.

[Joemailman]

I think he make it, unless the Packers decide he's a lost cause character-wise. I think he has as much natural ability as any CB on the team other than Woodson. He probably would have been drafted higher than he was if he hadn't lost his scholarship at Ohio St. I think the Packers will give him one more shot to prove he can harness his ability, with the understanding that the time to grow up is now.

[Bretsky]

Bretsky is not commenting on the 3sum until the charges have been cleared

[CaliforniaCheez]

Although the poll shows a consensus, history has shown us that no matter how good the Packers team is there always seems to be one or two rookie free agents that make the team.

I think his chances are good but we will see.

[The Leaper]

I think he gets cut...the chances of a suspension still exist. He'll last until the final cuts, but I think Green Bay will go another direction.

[Fritz]

Well Patler, I would not call Mike McCarthy a liar.

I will wait and to see the evidence on the field during the preseason.

We'll all wait to see, I just thought a poll of people's feelings might be interesting. Just my opinion as of now, but I think he is a goner. Personally, I hope the kid learns, keeps his nose clean, and becomes a better player than a 6th rounder is expected to be.

I never felt the same way about Jolly. I expected the team would hang on to him until they had no real choice. Of course, his problems came after his second season and after he had showed performance on the field. But I got a different sense about him from the team even early on. They talked about his effort on the field as a rookie, and that in GB he was all about football. They mentioned early that his problems came when he got around influences from his younger years.

I sensed real frustration with Underwood last year, when they really needed him to step up. It was a golden opportunity for him with all the injuries, and I sensed that he did little to take advantage of that opportunity.

Now he puts himself and six teammates in a bad situation at a function they attended as Packers. It wasn't him on his own time, so to speak. He was there in his role as a Packer, even if it was after the event. The team (coaches, GM, etc.) will take it a little more personally than they would have if he was simply on his own when he did it.

Put it all together, and I just don't see a lot of patience or tolerance coming his way.

I can't help but think if ol' Max McGee or maybe Paul Hornung would've been able to be with Underwood that night, there'd be a lot more "boys will be boys" talk than there is now.

[Gunakor]

If Goodell doesn't suspend Underwood he ain't going anywhere. The last thing MM wants to do is start the season one DB short if he doesn't have to. If BU is suspended I bet MM and TT look for someone else and cut ties but if BU's eligible to suit up he's going to suit up for Green Bay.

If there's no criminal punishment and no league punishment then this is a private matter between he and his family. The Packers should stay out of that one, and I would expect them to.

[mission]

I do want to mention that I hope he is not released/traded regardless of what Goodell decides to do to him.

He wasn't doing anything out of the norm for an NFL player, unfortunately, and I'd hate to lose a guy on the rise for image purposes. We have a long way to go before becoming the Bengals. Let's keep this in perspective (although reading JSO headlines on their front Packer page... that's pretty tough to do)

[Patler]

I am a bit surprised at all the positive talk on here about Underwood's talent, performance, how much he is needed, etc. When did he show it?

Wasn't Ford playing ahead of him last year until he strained his knee?
Wasn't Bell playing ahead of him last year, even at the end of the season?
Didn't the Packers move Bush from safety back to corner in part because Underwood gave them nothing at corner?

Did Underwood suddenly become a "player" by attending off season workouts?
Did he leapfrog all the guys who were ahead of him last season by lifting weights?
What did he do last year to gain the confidence of so many of you?

I had more hope for him right after the draft a year ago than I did at the end of the season, after reading what the coaches had to say about his lack of development. Corner after corner went down with injuries, and Underwood didn't seem to see the opportunities it gave him.

I sincerely hope I am wrong, but I think he has a long way to go to make the team on performance alone.

MM's comments were well & good, but related to his off season workouts. It had nothing to do with his ability to actually play corner. It seemed to portend a new attitude, increased maturity. Still doesn't mean he can cover anyone, or recognize his coverage responsibilities. In view of his latest escapade, I have to question if he really has changed his attitude or matured.

[Fritz]

Patler, I think people are ascribing Underwood's lack of playing time last year to immaturity and not grasping the system rather than a lack of talent.

The hope of course is that if he's talented he can mature and grow and learn the system. But if he was mature and knew the system but didn't play, well, he won't be able to grow any talent.

So people are being hopeful. I am trying to be.

[Patler]

Patler, I think people are ascribing Underwood's lack of playing time last year to immaturity and not grasping the system rather than a lack of talent.

The hope of course is that if he's talented he can mature and grow and learn the system. But if he was mature and knew the system but didn't play, well, he won't be able to grow any talent.

So people are being hopeful. I am trying to be.

Ya, I understand all that; but sometimes the solidarity we develop behind a guy who showed nothing and was questioned by the coaches for his effort surprises me.

The guy I am holding out hope for is Lee.

I haven't seen or heard anything special about Underwood that makes him stand out as a 6th round pick. The low draft picks that become something are often the guys like Driver and Tauscher, who have unquestioned work ethics and dedication to their profession.

I am more hopeful for Ford and Bell than I am for Underwood. They seem to have better approaches to their jobs.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I voted he'll make the final roster, but I did it based on snippets of seeing him play in games last year, not on the Lake Delton thing.

I just learned of his legal situation. It's bad. I was a huge Underwood fan going into this season, expecting that he would "break out" during his sophomore year.

I don't know Underwood from Adam. He showed enough character to apologize to his teammates. Other than that, his attitude is unknown to me.

As to coachs' comments about him. McStubby stood by his comments according to an article yesterday. It might still be smoke. Who knows? Maybe negative comments expressed by other coaches were motivational too and just smoke.

I like Underwood because during the few times I've seen him on the field he displayed raw speed and the ability to stick it to opponents. I assumed his problems cracking the lineup were mental, i.e., picking up the system and translating book knowledge into field reactions.

I still think he'll make the team and -- now I go way out on a limb -- I wouldn't be shocked to seem him start a game or two later on. :)

[Scott Campbell]

I am a bit surprised at all the positive talk on here about Underwood's talent, performance, how much he is needed, etc. When did he show it?


http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/96016814.html

"Underwood practiced Wednesday at the starting right cornerback spot opposite Pat Lee, in place of regular starters Al Harris and Charles Woodson. With Tramon Williams not practicing either, Underwood's placement is an indication of how highly the team considers his potential."



Al is coming off an injury and is old. And we didn't draft any corners this year at an area where depth is critical. So much of my feelings on Underwood is wishful thinking. We need somebody to step up, and I really don't care who.

[pbmax]

Bretsky is not commenting on the 3sum until the charges have been cleared
I think Underwood was sold a bill of goods. It was only a threesome if you include the girl with his wallet.

I think Underwood could easily be the 5th best CB. And he may be the 4th, if only due to the health unreliability of Lee. If they keep only four safeties this year, he is staying. he might even stay if they keep 5 safeties and Lee is hurt.

[Scott Campbell]

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]
Is Underwood going to be cut in the off season, whether or not he is charged with anything?
Thursday June 10, 2010 12:03 Guest
12:04


Rob Demovsky:
Given the Packers' situation at cornerback with guys coming off injuries -- Harris and Lee -- and Blackmon moving to safety (although I suppose he could always move back to corner), I would be surprised if Underwood gets cut. Suspended maybe.

[Fritz]

Who would suspend him? The league? I can't imagine the Packers suspending a guy who sounds like he needs all the reps he could get.

[Scott Campbell]

I think it totally depends on what comes out of this. I haven't seen anything yet though to make me think he's facing suspension. So I think it will take something else being piled on in order for him to get a league or team response.

[Fritz]

Now reports come out that "money was exchanged." But none of the reports I've seen say who was giving whom the money.

Was he paying them for sex? Were they paying him for sex? Was he paying them for a t-shirt he bought? Were they paying him for his autograph?

What happened?

[mission]

Now reports come out that "money was exchanged." But none of the reports I've seen say who was giving whom the money.

Was he paying them for sex? Were they paying him for sex? Was he paying them for a t-shirt he bought? Were they paying him for his autograph?

What happened?

Obviously one of the latter two. :)

[denverYooper]

Now reports come out that "money was exchanged." But none of the reports I've seen say who was giving whom the money.

Was he paying them for sex? Were they paying him for sex? Was he paying them for a t-shirt he bought? Were they paying him for his autograph?

What happened?

Ahhh, the beauty of the Passive Voice.

[Fritz]

Now reports come out that "money was exchanged." But none of the reports I've seen say who was giving whom the money.

Was he paying them for sex? Were they paying him for sex? Was he paying them for a t-shirt he bought? Were they paying him for his autograph?

What happened?

Ahhh, the beauty of the Passive Voice.

Exactly. Was sex had?

[mraynrand]

Now reports come out that "money was exchanged." But none of the reports I've seen say who was giving whom the money.

Was he paying them for sex? Were they paying him for sex? Was he paying them for a t-shirt he bought? Were they paying him for his autograph?

What happened?

Ahhh, the beauty of the Passive Voice.

Exactly. Was sex had?

Someone was had