The big picture

[RashanGary]

Here we sit. . . People are out there learning about our earth, learning about our solar system, learning about our galaxy. . . . We are constantly learning, documenting our findings and passing them down to the next in line.


People have been navigating water for thousands of years with sail boats. 6000 years ago, Egyptians were known to be using crude sails with crude boats to get around.

Just for some perspective 100 years is 1.6% of 6000. If a person has lived to be 100 years old, they've lived 1.6% of the 6000 years since our transportation has really taken off.

The history of human life has been about 200,000 years by some estimations.

So we've been writing books (the bible for example) for a relatively short amount of time.


Our whole lives, we're not less ignorant than those who came before us. Our cell phones, cars, homes, etc. . . . We've got it so figured out.

Yet here we are, wars still waging. . . We're still going to die. There is so much left to learn in the universe. It's scary how little we know. And then there is god. . . .


In the big picture, I don't think we have much of a clue what we're doing here. We have this (bible) to lead our way. It started being written about 3500 years ago. So a great majority of people who roamed this earth never had a, "bible" to lead their way. . .


So here we are. Politics, religion. . . . Who has the answer for what we're doing, where we're going, the whole point?


Religion feels like the closest thing for me, to touching on the big picture. The idea of a creator, a beginning, a reason. . . . God passed he word on to us through people 3500 years ago. It's the beginning and end. It captures the big picture.

Muslims. . . . Jews. . . . Christians. . . . Various other spiritual groups. . . . Which of them has it figured out?


So you get to a point, you're never going to have a difinitive answer and if you do, billions will disagree with you. . .

How to find a purpose.


Maybe we just go through life, enjoy the things we enjoy. Live the best way we know how and then die and if anything comes after that, hopefully you end up with the good afterlife.




So get up, go for a jog. If you're married or in a relationship, maybe have some sex. Hey, it's a wonderful experience between two people. It just happens to be a key to our existence, but ignore that reality. Focus on how it makes you feel, focus on what it means to you. . . . Go to Packer practice, read the news. . . . Live our lives. . . Whether we know what we're doing or not is beside the point.

[MJZiggy]

Someone's feeling a little philosophical this morning. What exactly did you put in your coffee this morning.

Today existentialism means wiping out the empty fridge/freezer and replacing the lost food. It also means writing a grad school paper on the experimental research method and writing up a literature review on employee satisfaction and the effects of blog posts and negative media campaigns.

Then I get to put the clean dishes away, do the laundry, be interviewed as a professional working in our field for a classmate's final project in another class, trim the garden, pick up the sticks that the storm dropped all over the yard and if there's anything left, then I get an episode of Six Feet Under followed by sex.

That is the purpose of life. Oh. And coffee.

[RashanGary]

My wife and kids are gone for the weekend. Usually I'm too busy to worry about such petty things as, "is there a religion that has it figured out"

[swede]

There are many immortals. Your actions and ideas can survive you to echo beyond you and influence the scope of human history.

Socrates, Lincoln, Martin Luther King, John Wayne Bobbit to name a few.

[MJZiggy]

There are many immortals. Your actions and ideas can survive you to echo beyond you and influence the scope of human history.

Socrates, Lincoln, Martin Luther King, John Wayne Bobbit to name a few.

Leave it to you to get all serious about it...:mrgreen:

[swede]

You knew who that was without wiki, didn't you!

You would probably be a terror at Trivial Pursuit--if they even play that game anymore.

[MJZiggy]

You knew who that was without wiki, didn't you!

You would probably be a terror at Trivial Pursuit--if they even play that game anymore.

Please, the man added a whole new word to the lexicon and made abusive and cheating men across the country think twice--or 14 times--for a while anyway.

Trivial Pursuit got outdated in a hurry as new, useless stuff happened.

I guess to answer Justin's question a little more seriously, I believe that most religions have individual small pieces of the puzzle and use stories to make their followers feel more secure about things they can't explain. They like to believe that they are somehow insulated from the bad things that happen in the world because of their beliefs, but we see that's a false belief. Tsunamis, earthquakes, plane crashes, wildfires, tornadoes, floods, hurricanes, droughts, car accidents and murders happen too randomly for me to think that any one religion has their prayers answered any more than anyone else. Animals get eaten by other animals and if we stray to the wrong place, we get eaten too. Good people get cancer. It's just the way it happens. Do I think that God put his kid here to have us murder him during his natural lifetime and that somehow exonerates us for everything we do wrong? No. Do I think that God came to a mountain and invented a burqa? No. That's man trying to keep himself from being tempted and in the process stripping the ones he loves of their identity and robbing himself of the beauty of the individual people around him. Every religion I've ever looked at has some good ideas and then some crazy practices and demands of its followers that just seems like nonsense. So no. I'm closer to being a Deist like our Founding Fathers. There's something there, but we haven't scratched the surface of figuring it all out yet. And that's ok.

[Iron Mike]

My wife and kids are gone for the weekend. Usually I'm too busy to worry about such petty things as, "is there a religion that has it figured out"

I'd say you have some time to read some Joseph Campbell, then.....

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_N6APHtFPWNc/S0J9wk0KlpI/AAAAAAAABcY/KlxfL0E042M/s400/mog9011.jpg

[falco]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rxKjDLO5gW4/SshjeX5cvII/AAAAAAAABHE/FiSv7R6ngKw/s320/Richard+Dawkins+-+The+God+Delusion+-.jpg

[HowardRoark]

You knew who that was without wiki, didn't you!

You would probably be a terror at Trivial Pursuit--if they even play that game anymore.

Please, the man added a whole new word to the lexicon and made abusive and cheating men across the country think twice--or 14 times--for a while anyway.

Trivial Pursuit got outdated in a hurry as new, useless stuff happened.

I guess to answer Justin's question a little more seriously, I believe that most religions have individual small pieces of the puzzle and use stories to make their followers feel more secure about things they can't explain. They like to believe that they are somehow insulated from the bad things that happen in the world because of their beliefs, but we see that's a false belief. Tsunamis, earthquakes, plane crashes, wildfires, tornadoes, floods, hurricanes, droughts, car accidents and murders happen too randomly for me to think that any one religion has their prayers answered any more than anyone else. Animals get eaten by other animals and if we stray to the wrong place, we get eaten too. Good people get cancer. It's just the way it happens. Do I think that God put his kid here to have us murder him during his natural lifetime and that somehow exonerates us for everything we do wrong? No. Do I think that God came to a mountain and invented a burqa? No. That's man trying to keep himself from being tempted and in the process stripping the ones he loves of their identity and robbing himself of the beauty of the individual people around him. Every religion I've ever looked at has some good ideas and then some crazy practices and demands of its followers that just seems like nonsense. So no. I'm closer to being a Deist like our Founding Fathers. There's something there, but we haven't scratched the surface of figuring it all out yet. And that's ok.

Which religion teaches that its followers will be insulated from bad things happening to them? I am a Christian, and Christianity certainly does not teach any such thing.

So, you will decide what is good and evil while sifting and winnowing through the various religions out there. I believe we have the god of all gods right here then…..You.

How do you determine what is “good and what is “evil.” Very dated linguistics by the way…..I thought you were more enlightened than that….Imagine there’s no heaven, no hell below us…..and whatnot.

[retailguy]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rxKjDLO5gW4/SshjeX5cvII/AAAAAAAABHE/FiSv7R6ngKw/s320/Richard+Dawkins+-+The+God+Delusion+-.jpg

My summary of this book:

"If I (the author) can't conceive it, it is not possible..." Scary ego right there.

[MJZiggy]

You knew who that was without wiki, didn't you!

You would probably be a terror at Trivial Pursuit--if they even play that game anymore.

Please, the man added a whole new word to the lexicon and made abusive and cheating men across the country think twice--or 14 times--for a while anyway.

Trivial Pursuit got outdated in a hurry as new, useless stuff happened.

I guess to answer Justin's question a little more seriously, I believe that most religions have individual small pieces of the puzzle and use stories to make their followers feel more secure about things they can't explain. They like to believe that they are somehow insulated from the bad things that happen in the world because of their beliefs, but we see that's a false belief. Tsunamis, earthquakes, plane crashes, wildfires, tornadoes, floods, hurricanes, droughts, car accidents and murders happen too randomly for me to think that any one religion has their prayers answered any more than anyone else. Animals get eaten by other animals and if we stray to the wrong place, we get eaten too. Good people get cancer. It's just the way it happens. Do I think that God put his kid here to have us murder him during his natural lifetime and that somehow exonerates us for everything we do wrong? No. Do I think that God came to a mountain and invented a burqa? No. That's man trying to keep himself from being tempted and in the process stripping the ones he loves of their identity and robbing himself of the beauty of the individual people around him. Every religion I've ever looked at has some good ideas and then some crazy practices and demands of its followers that just seems like nonsense. So no. I'm closer to being a Deist like our Founding Fathers. There's something there, but we haven't scratched the surface of figuring it all out yet. And that's ok.

Which religion teaches that its followers will be insulated from bad things happening to them? I am a Christian, and Christianity certainly does not teach any such thing.

So, you will decide what is good and evil while sifting and winnowing through the various religions out there. I believe we have the god of all gods right here then…..You.

How do you determine what is “good and what is “evil.” Very dated linguistics by the way…..I thought you were more enlightened than that….Imagine there’s no heaven, no hell below us…..and whatnot.

Who said their religion teaches it? I said some "like to believe" did I not? It's up there in red for your reference. I know plenty of people like that. I have a facebook friend who posted to her page that she feared flooding with the recent storms. She decided that since she only had puddles all over her basement that God must love her (this is a pattern--she puts preventable problems in God's hands and takes no action on her own). Her kid got braces and the whole family prayed that her teeth wouldn't hurt because God loves her. Ummm...they're moving her teeth. That hurts. When the baby had a fever they gave God credit when it broke. The tylenol had nothing to do with it. A large segment of our population seems to believe that God wants them to wear a small hat from Friday night to Monday morning. Another segment seems to find female hair evil--some of them think the whole of the female is evil and needs covering. Some believe meat is evil, but only on Fridays during lent. I know some who believe Christmas trees are evil. They also believe that God is all powerful but yet that after they die they become him. Some people leave medical intervention in the hands of God. People die that way from thing like appendicitis.

Some believe God is all loving, all powerful and omnicient. if God is all powerful, then he has the power to control the world yet doesn't protect those he is supposed to be all loving to. His followers often die horrid deaths just like everyone else. So is he not all powerful or just an ass that doesn't look out for those who love him? Or is he not in control? Do you really think he track and micromanages the lives of 6.8 billion people?

You want to know good from evil? If you hurt others, that's evil. If you treat others and the world and yourself with respect, not evil. You think you need a god to tell you right from wrong? Are you not bright enough to figure it out on your own? And if you do need him, do you want the lesson from someone who could control the horrid, wretched things that happen to people and chooses to let his people be screwed over, drowned, struck by lightning killed, maimed or a million other stupid things that happen to people? If god is such a certainty, then why do you have doubt?

[retailguy]

Some believe God is all loving, all powerful and omnicient. if God is all powerful, then he has the power to control the world yet doesn't protect those he is supposed to be all loving to.

My answer is free will. God wanted us to have the ability to make choices and benefit from them, or learn from them if we didn't make the best choices. Interfering in those choices, would inhibit mans ability to learn and grow from those decisions.

I'll admit, that I struggle with illness in little children. Most of the rest of it, I can accept. That'll be one of the questions that I'd like God to explain to me.



His followers often die horrid deaths just like everyone else. So is he not all powerful or just an ass that doesn't look out for those who love him?

Why should he interfere? So he can "prove" he exists? Is he truly showing "compassion" to keep that person alive and on earth if the the true reward is found in heaven? Wouldn't "compassion" be letting that person die so they can go to the true reward?



Or is he not in control?

He is "controlling" those things that he wishes to control. He is letting you control your life, and me control my life. He rewards me when I do well, and punishes me when I don't.



Do you really think he track and micromanages the lives of 6.8 billion people?

Tracks? yes. Micro manages? No. I don't believe that God cares about a lot of my decisions. I think he's interested what I pick and what I do with it, but I'm not sure most of my decisions are a big deal. I question whether God really cares where we work, or what car we drive, or where we live. I think he cares deeply whether I manage my finances properly, and raise my children according to his word, and that I treat my neighbors with respect.



You want to know good from evil? If you hurt others, that's evil. If you treat others and the world and yourself with respect, not evil.

So, is it good or evil if I have great intentions when I hand that bum on the side of the freeway a dollar, and it enables him to stay on the side of the road for another day, instead of forcing him to get the help he needs?



You think you need a god to tell you right from wrong?

I don't think it matters what I think. I think God defined morality when he wrote the Bible, and since it was around before I was, it defined right and wrong for me. I can't honestly argue with anything that the Bible says is right and wrong, so why do I really need to "figure it out for myself"?

Also, if I were writing the rules of morality, wouldn't I make sure that my needs were taken care of?



Are you not bright enough to figure it out on your own?

Do you really believe that some of those folks on the bus next to you can figure out right from wrong on their own? Really?



And if you do need him, do you want the lesson from someone who could control the horrid, wretched things that happen to people and chooses to let his people be screwed over, drowned, struck by lightning killed, maimed or a million other stupid things that happen to people?

Yes.

I always know there is a part to the situation that I can't forsee and I can't understand. Knowing that what seems like certainty isn't, helps me think of solutions that I might not pursue if I knew that the particular situation is "over".



If god is such a certainty, then why do you have doubt?

Faith. God wants us to choose him. He wants us to believe even when we cannot get all the facts.

Hebrews 11:1 tells me that "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

If he were to "completely" prove himself to the world, the world would not need faith. Faith is the cornerstone upon which God wants me to base my belief.

I doubt because I don't fully understand why this is necessary. I have difficulty being OK with the fact that I don't "control" the rules.

[falco]

http://api.ning.com/files/yjfCSn-xIIab3RSgYAQvGkHlbArUxm6vy9durltc1Gc_/800pxTouched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg

[wootah]

It always strikes me how religious people still are in the USA. I'm happy for those who find strength or comfort from such an idea, but I'm an atheist myself.

Our current level of science doesn't allow us to explain some things, but I haven't seen or felt anything in my life which concludes me to think there is a god somewhere.

[swede]

It always strikes me how religious people still are in the USA. I'm happy for those who find strength or comfort from such an idea, but I'm an atheist myself.

Our current level of science doesn't allow us to explain some things, but I haven't seen or felt anything in my life which concludes me to think there is a god somewhere.

Well, then that settles it.

Next topic, please.

[falco]

It always strikes me how religious people still are in the USA. I'm happy for those who find strength or comfort from such an idea, but I'm an atheist myself.

Our current level of science doesn't allow us to explain some things, but I haven't seen or felt anything in my life which concludes me to think there is a god somewhere.

Well, then that settles it.

Next topic, please.

How is his opinion any less justifiable than yours?

[swede]

So, you'd give him a B+ in the Epistemology final?

Nietzsche might have given it an A-.

[falco]

He was just sharing his opinion. I don't think he was haughty or offensive in doing so.

[swede]

I come to the internet precisely to be haughty and offensive.

I have real people I can be nice to.

[HowardRoark]

Nietzsche is dead.

[swede]

Nietzsche is dead.

God probably put him in Heaven just to piss him off.



God: How we doin' today Freddy? There's a buffet on Deck Three y'know. All you can eat!

FN: Shut the f*** up you hairy old %$&*^#! I want my f***ing phone call!

[wootah]

It always strikes me how religious people still are in the USA. I'm happy for those who find strength or comfort from such an idea, but I'm an atheist myself.

Our current level of science doesn't allow us to explain some things, but I haven't seen or felt anything in my life which concludes me to think there is a god somewhere.

Well, then that settles it.

Next topic, please.

Just my 2 cents, as an outsider looking in. As a non-American I am often surprised on how much of the American society is still influenced by religion, that's all. Didn't want to offend anyone nor write a thesis to score high grades. Next time I'll add a dickjoke to soften the blow.

[MJZiggy]

Nietzsche is dead.

Wonder if he took god with him...

[retailguy]

It always strikes me how religious people still are in the USA. I'm happy for those who find strength or comfort from such an idea, but I'm an atheist myself.

Our current level of science doesn't allow us to explain some things, but I haven't seen or felt anything in my life which concludes me to think there is a god somewhere.

Well, then that settles it.

Next topic, please.

Just my 2 cents, as an outsider looking in. As a non-American I am often surprised on how much of the American society is still influenced by religion, that's all. Didn't want to offend anyone nor write a thesis to score high grades. Next time I'll add a dickjoke to soften the blow.

What's a dickjoke?

[Joemailman]

What's a dickjoke?

http://www.mendhak.com/165-more-than-101-big-dick-jokes.aspx

My dick is so big, there's still snow on it in the summertime.
My dick is so big, I went to The Viper Room and my dick got right in. I had to stand and argue with the doorman.
My dick is so big, I have to call it Mr. Dick in front of company.
My dick is so big, it won't return Spielberg's calls.
My dick is so big, it graduated a year ahead of me from high school.
My dick has an elevator and a lobby.
My dick has better credit than I do.
My dick is so big, clowns climb out of it when I cum.
My dick is so big, it was overthrown by a military coup. It's now known as the Democratic Republic of My Dick.
My dick is so big, it has casters.
My dick is so big, I'm already fucking a girl tomorrow.
My dick is so big, ships use it to find their way into the harbor.
My dick is so big, there was once a movie called Godzilla vs. My Dick.
My dick is so big, it lives next door.
My dick is so big, I entered it in a big-dick contest and it came in first, second, and third.
My dick is so big, it votes.
My dick is a better dresser than I am.
My dick is so big, it has a three-picture deal.
My dick is so big that the head of it has only seen my balls in pictures.
My dick is so big, Henry Aaron used it to hit his 750th home run.
My dick runs the 440 in 15 seconds
My dick is the Walrus, koo koo ga joob.
No matter where I go, my dick always gets there first.
My dick takes longer lunches than I do.
My dick contributed fifty thousand dollars to the Democratic National Committee.
My dick was once the ambassador to China.
My dick is so big, it's gone condo.
My dick hit .370 in the minors before it hurt its knee.
My dick was almost drafted by the Cleveland Browns, but Art Modell didn't want a bigger dick than he was on the team.
My dick is so big, I use the Eiffel Tower as a French tickler.
It's so big, when it rains the head of my dick doesn't get wet.
My dick is so big, I could wear it as a tie if I wasn't so afraid of getting a hard-on and killing myself.
My dick is so big, I have to use an elastic zipper.
My dick is so big, it has feet.
My dick is so big, a homeless family lives underneath it.
My dick is so big, it takes four fat women and a team of Clydesdales to jack me off.
My dick is so big, my mother was in labor for three extra days.
My dick is so big, they use the bullet train to test my condoms.
My dick is so big, it has investors.
My dick is so big, it seats six.
My dick is so big, I use a hula hoop as a cock ring.
My dick is so big, we use it at parties as a limbo pole.
My dick is so big, King Kong is going to crawl up it in the next remake.
My dick is so big, it has an opening act.
My dick is so big I can fuck an elevator shaft.
My dick is so big, it has its own Wheaties box.
My dick is so big, I have to cook it breakfast in the mornings.
My dick is so big, the city had to carve a hole in the middle of it so cars could get through.
My dick is so big, every time I get hard I cause a solar eclipse.
My dick is so big, it only plays arenas.
If you cut my dick in two, you can tell how old I am.
My dick was once set on fire for a Dino DiLaurentis movie.
My dick is so big, it needs an airplane warning light.
My dick is so big, Trump owns it.
My dick is so big that we're all a part of it, and it's all a part of us.
My dick is so big, I can never sit in the front row.
My dick is so big, that it has its own dick. And even my dick's dick is bigger than your dick.
My dick is so big, you can't blow me without a ladder.
My dick is so big, it only does one show a night.
My dick is so big, you can ski down it.
My dick is so big, it has an elbow.
My dick is so big, I have to check it as luggage when I fly.
My dick is so big, it has a personal trainer.
My dick is so big, that right now it's in the other room fixing us drinks.
My dick is so big, it has a retractable dome.
My dick is so big, it has stairs up the center like the Statue of Liberty.
My dick is so big, there's a sneaker named "Air My Dick"
My dick is so big, I'm it's bitch.
My dick is so big, it's against the law to fuck me without protective headgear.
My dick is so big, I could fuck a tuba.
My dick is so big, Stephen Hawking has a theory about it.
My dick is so big, it has its own gravity
NASA once launched a space probe to search for the tip of my dick.
My dick is so big, it's impossible to see all of it without a satellite.
The inside of my dick contains billions and billions of stars.
My dick is so big, it has a spine.
My dick is so big, it has a basement.
My dick is so big, movie theaters now serve popcorn in small, medium, large, and My Dick.
My dick is more muscular than I am.
My dick is so big it has cable.
My dick is so big, it violates seventeen zoning laws.
My dick is so big, it has its own page in the Sierra Club calendar.
My dick is so big, it has a fifty-yard line.
My dick is so big, I was once in Ohio and got a blow job in Tennessee.
My dick is so big, Las Vegas casinos fly it into town for free.
My dick is so big, I can braid it.
My dick is so big, that when it's Eastern Standard Time at the tip, it's Central Mountain Time at my balls.
My dick is so big, I painted the foreskin red, white, and blue and used it as a flag.
My dick is so big, I can sit on it.
My dick is so big, it can chew gum.
My dick is so big, it only tips with hundreds.
My dick is so big, the Carnegie Deli named a sandwich after it. Actually, two sandwiches.
My dick is so big, the city was going to build a statue of it but they ran out of cement.
My dick is so big, Michael Jackson wants to build an amusement park on it.
My dick is so big, when I get hard my eyebrows get pulled down to my neck.
My dick is so big, you're standing on it.
My dick is so big, it only comes into work when it feels like it.
My dick is so big, it plays golf with the president.
My dick is so big, it charges money for its autograph.
My dick is so big, it has an agent. My dick's people will call your people. Let's have lunch with my dick.
My dick is so big, it's right behind you.

[swede]

Howard and Joe are walking along the road on a dark, dark night. As they cross a bridge over a river, Howard mentions that he has to take a leak. Joe concurs and they both unzip, hang 'em over the railing and begin to pee.

In the mood to impress, Howard says, "Brrr...the water sure is cold."

Not to be outdone, Joe says, "Yep, and it's deep, too."[/i]

[swede]

Once upon a time in the Viking locker room Coach Brad Childress caught a glimpse of Visanthe Shiancoe coming out of the shower and couldn't help but notice his enormous dick.

"My God, Visanthe! What on earth did you do to get a dick that size?"

"Well, Coach Childress, my daddy taught me to bang my dick on the side of the bedpost every night before going to bed. That's how my dick got so big."

Coach Childress works late into the night, and when he goes home he finds that his wife is already in bed. Remembering what he had been told, he took out his dick and banged it vigorously on the bedpost a few times. Roused by the noise, his wife sat up and peered into the darkness of the room.

"Is that you, Visanthe?" she asked.

[MadScientist]

If god is such a certainty, then why do you have doubt?

Faith. God wants us to choose him. He wants us to believe even when we cannot get all the facts.

Hebrews 11:1 tells me that "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."
Faith is believing in what you know ain't so. - Twain

Being sure of what you hope fore - so are you willing to bet your life savings that the Packers will win the Superbowl? (Better odds than a god existing). Hebrews 11:1 sounds like a recipe for insanity.


If he were to "completely" prove himself to the world, the world would not need faith. Faith is the cornerstone upon which God wants me to base my belief.

Again this is insane. If your god were to prove his existence then we could all just accept it as fact, instead of having people like you try to argue that the complete lack of evidence is in fact evidence. Really, that logic is the same as the UFO believers 'logic' that no evidence = clear evidence of a government cover-up. :roll:

Perhaps your god is afraid of a bable fish incident:

"The Babel fish" said The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy quietly, "is a small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconsious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the consious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish."

"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindboggingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:

`I refuse to prove that I exist, says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'

`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanished in a puff of logic."

`Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

"Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his bestselling book Well That About Wraps It Up For God."

"Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation."

[HowardRoark]

If god is such a certainty, then why do you have doubt?

Faith. God wants us to choose him. He wants us to believe even when we cannot get all the facts.

Hebrews 11:1 tells me that "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."
Faith is believing in what you know ain't so. - Twain

Being sure of what you hope fore - so are you willing to bet your life savings that the Packers will win the Superbowl? (Better odds than a god existing). Hebrews 11:1 sounds like a recipe for insanity.


If he were to "completely" prove himself to the world, the world would not need faith. Faith is the cornerstone upon which God wants me to base my belief.

Again this is insane. If your god were to prove his existence then we could all just accept it as fact, instead of having people like you try to argue that the complete lack of evidence is in fact evidence. Really, that logic is the same as the UFO believers 'logic' that no evidence = clear evidence of a government cover-up. :roll:

Perhaps your god is afraid of a bable fish incident:

"The Babel fish" said The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy quietly, "is a small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconsious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the consious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish."

"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindboggingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:

`I refuse to prove that I exist, says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'

`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanished in a puff of logic."

`Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

"Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his bestselling book Well That About Wraps It Up For God."

"Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation."


My dick is so big, it's known as "mark twain!"

[Little Whiskey]

...................

if your right ......no big deal. if retailguy is right......you're Effed!

[MadScientist]

...................

if your right ......no big deal. if retailguy is right......you're Effed!
If reatailguy is right, there is a god that is trying to cause us to be insane and we are all effed.

[MJZiggy]

...................

if your right ......no big deal. if retailguy is right......you're Effed!
If reatailguy is right, there is a god that is trying to cause us to be insane and we are all effed.

Admit it. We're effed either way. Actually it depends on the religion. Were RG Jewish, he'd have gone a whole lifetime depriving himself of bacon. Let's not contemplate no bacon or sausage with our eggs. That was what I was saying a while back. Each religion has its own set of wacky requirements. What if RG has spent a whole life of committed deprivation waiting for the greater reward and MadScientist is right? Worse, he's spent a life depending on a god that doesn't exist? Asking for things to deaf ears? Thanking nobody and giving credit for all he does well to nothing?

[HowardRoark]

...................

if your right ......no big deal. if retailguy is right......you're Effed!
If reatailguy is right, there is a god that is trying to cause us to be insane and we are all effed.

Admit it. We're effed either way. Actually it depends on the religion. Were RG Jewish, he'd have gone a whole lifetime depriving himself of bacon. Let's not contemplate no bacon or sausage with our eggs. That was what I was saying a while back. Each religion has its own set of wacky requirements. What if RG has spent a whole life of committed deprivation waiting for the greater reward and MadScientist is right? Worse, he's spent a life depending on a god that doesn't exist? Asking for things to deaf ears? Thanking nobody and giving credit for all he does well to nothing?

What is the deprivation in Christianity?

[HowardRoark]

...................

if your right ......no big deal. if retailguy is right......you're Effed!
If reatailguy is right, there is a god that is trying to cause us to be insane and we are all effed.

For what it’s worth, the whole “lunatic/insane” thing is not new; C.S. Lewis’s Trilemma. You seem like a smart enough guy, but have some deep anger toward Christianity; probably some dopey Christian or Catholic upbringing flipped the switch to this disdain, who knows….that’s too bad.

Anyway, here is some info on the lunatic Jesus:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5079rCfs6I

[falco]

What is the deprivation in Christianity?

the pleasure of casual sodomy?

[retailguy]

...................

if your right ......no big deal. if retailguy is right......you're Effed!
If reatailguy is right, there is a god that is trying to cause us to be insane and we are all effed.

Admit it. We're effed either way. Actually it depends on the religion. Were RG Jewish, he'd have gone a whole lifetime depriving himself of bacon. Let's not contemplate no bacon or sausage with our eggs. That was what I was saying a while back. Each religion has its own set of wacky requirements. What if RG has spent a whole life of committed deprivation waiting for the greater reward and MadScientist is right? Worse, he's spent a life depending on a god that doesn't exist? Asking for things to deaf ears? Thanking nobody and giving credit for all he does well to nothing?

Which of the 10 commandments should I "feel deprived" for not following?

If I spend my whole life following Christianity and Mad Scientist is right, I guess I'll spend eternity in a box right next to him. If Mad Scientist is wrong, and I am right, our futures will be quite different....

Next, if I get to where I'm going, and find out this thing is all a fraud, I guess I'll look back on my life and realize I had a GREAT LIFE. I'm not missing anything important that I can see. I have a wife and family that love me, I'm successful in my career & financial life, I've got great friends, etc. Who get the credit for that is really not important to me. If it's me, great, if it's God, that's great too.

I just fail to see the downside here. You seem to be speaking about me as if I'm jewish, but you know I'm not. I have a friend who is jewish, and she doesn't "feel deprived" either. Different customs, that's for sure, but she seems quite content with her life. Trying to assume that you understand her perspective, without walking in her shoes, seems a dangerous perspective at best.

[falco]

I'm with RG. To each his own. Live and let live. etc etc etc.

[MJZiggy]

I'm with RG. To each his own. Live and let live. etc etc etc.

Oh, I'm not suggesting he shouldn't live as he chooses or believe what he chooses. But I also believe that I get the same right without being called immoral for it. I behave perfectly fine, thanks. We're discussing our religious philosophies. And there are plenty of viewpoints out there--and if you believe that your religion is the only way to be saved, does that mean that all of the other people in the other religions cannot be? Does that mean that god is cruel for having created all these billions of people who were raised to follow the wrong religion and have no chance to be saved?

Are terrorists saved because they truly believe they're doing his will as they cut off women's noses and ears?

[Little Whiskey]

zig, you don't need to believe what my religion says to be saved. you need to believe what jesus says to be saved. its as simple as that. God isn't cruel he is Just. He tells you what you must do to be saved. if you don't, your not.



(fyi, i'm not calling you immoral or that you behave poorly.)

[MJZiggy]

zig, you don't need to believe what my religion says to be saved. you need to believe what jesus says to be saved. its as simple as that. God isn't cruel he is Just. He tells you what you must do to be saved. if you don't, your not.



(fyi, i'm not calling you immoral or that you behave poorly.)

So every human that was raised Muslim or Jewish or Hindi, or Buddhist, no matter how good they are, is doomed to hell? God created these people in this situation and they have no chance at redemption except to reject everything they've been taught in life by their parents and religious leaders? That's not cruel? What if the Muslims are right? Then you must reject Jesus and everything you've been taught because it's Muhammad not Jesus. That'd kinda leave you screwed, wouldn't it. Why do you believe it's Jesus you follow and not Muhammad? Why is the Bible right and not the Koran or the Torah? Maybe Confucius is the answer? Why are you right and all these others doomed?

[retailguy]

It isn't about behavior. If you believe what's in the bible, you know that behavior won't work. By God's standard even our best behavior falls short.

It is a choice to accept grace that is offered. Is it fair? God thinks so. I didn't get a vote, and neither did you.

We all got a choice. Even the hindu's buddhists and muslims, just to name a few.

[falco]

I'm with RG. To each his own. Live and let live. etc etc etc.

Oh, I'm not suggesting he shouldn't live as he chooses or believe what he chooses. But I also believe that I get the same right without being called immoral for it. I behave perfectly fine, thanks. We're discussing our religious philosophies. And there are plenty of viewpoints out there--and if you believe that your religion is the only way to be saved, does that mean that all of the other people in the other religions cannot be? Does that mean that god is cruel for having created all these billions of people who were raised to follow the wrong religion and have no chance to be saved?

Are terrorists saved because they truly elieve they're doing his will as they cut off women's noses and ears?

My comment wasn't intended to you in particular Ziggy.

[Freak Out]

I covet my neighbors female slave and his donkey so I'm probably screwed.....but I'm ok with that.

[MJZiggy]

It isn't about behavior. If you believe what's in the bible, you know that behavior won't work. By God's standard even our best behavior falls short.

It is a choice to accept grace that is offered. Is it fair? God thinks so. I didn't get a vote, and neither did you.

We all got a choice. Even the hindu's buddhists and muslims, just to name a few.

So you're not good enough for him as he made you? Which Pakistani Muslim has the choice? Which tribal person in the middle of Africa has the choice? If god exists, he doesn't seem very nice.

[retailguy]

So you're not good enough for him as he made you? Which Pakistani Muslim has the choice? Which tribal person in the middle of Africa has the choice? If god exists, he doesn't seem very nice.

No, not at all. He made us perfect in his own image. We botched that. So, this is our "plan B", I guess.

There is significant Christian mission work going on all over the world. Most of the populated world has heard of Jesus. The proportion of folks who have never heard of Jesus gets smaller every year. I recognize that there is significant "pressure" in the muslim world to remain muslim, and significant outside force to prevent the spread of non-muslim religions.

I don't know what God will do to the "little muslims" who were too scared to convert, I'll leave that to him. I believe that the God of Abraham has a plan for that, and I can trust him to handle that and don't have to "judge" the result before I see the outcome. (Not that I have a vote anyhow, but you get what I mean).

Maybe you should stop believing all the things you're "hearing" about God being not nice, and start learning about what he said and what he wrote. One of the biggest issues with criticism of God and the bible in general is that folks today don't understand Jewish custom at the time the bible was written and as such don't frame it in it's proper context. All that "strange" stuff you read isn't so strange if you lived at the time the bible was written. Scholars today devote their lives towards explaining Jewish custom at the time, and giving the meaning behind the events that took place.

The God I believe in is very nice - he sent his son to die on the cross for my sins. How much nicer does it get? In return, all I have to do is accept the grace that was offered me and strive to live the best life I can within the parameters he gives me. I don't even have to actually achieve success in living that life, I just have to sincerely try. Some days I do a great job, and some days I'm asking for lots of forgiveness and promising to try again tomorrow.

[retailguy]

I covet my neighbors female slave and his donkey so I'm probably screwed.....but I'm ok with that.

Me too. Thank God for grace. :wink: The new Mercedes donkey's are very nice, and too pricey for me but God knows I want one. And there are too many beautiful women in the world to even name one..... <sigh>

[MadScientist]

No, not at all. He made us perfect in his own image. We botched that. So, this is our "plan B", I guess.
So your god has useless nipples (he is a father, not a mother), easily detachable retinas and lower back troubles ? I guess your god evolved from animals that walked on four legs :twisted:


Maybe you should stop believing all the things you're "hearing" about God being not nice, and start learning about what he said and what he wrote. One of the biggest issues with criticism of God and the bible in general is that folks today don't understand Jewish custom at the time the bible was written and as such don't frame it in it's proper context. All that "strange" stuff you read isn't so strange if you lived at the time the bible was written. Scholars today devote their lives towards explaining Jewish custom at the time, and giving the meaning behind the events that took place.

Right, all those strange but actually nice things like the complete annihilation of every person, animal and item of Jericho, and the cold blooded murder of captured women and male children of the Midianites (Numbers 31). Just a Jewish custom ordered by your god, but really very nice. :roll:


he God I believe in is very nice - he sent his son to die on the cross for my sins. How much nicer does it get?
Sounds cruel and idiotic to me. I mean this is supposed to be an all powerful god and he sends his son (by debauching an engaged virgin) to a small group of people with limited influence to be tortured and executed to show how nice he is. That takes some serious double-think to accept that. Do you have any idea just how crazy your arguments are to a non-believer? The stuff you are saying is every bit as wacky as Scientology.