Mid-training camp discussion

[Patler]

OK, I know it is over half way; but we have two games in the can, two more to go. So lets discuss what has changed from the start of camp to now. What did we think (or hope) that looks like it might not pan out.

I'll start with a couple:

1. Giacomini has not progressed as much as we hoped, or in some cases were lead to believe. Can't seem to transfer practice performance to game situations. Probably succeeds in practice going against guys he knows well and can anticipate, but doesn't have the reactions necessary (physical/mental/intuitive) to succeed week after week against different players.

2. Barbre was a nice try, with athletic ability that made him worth the risk. But the experiment is probably over. (OK, maybe we all suspected this; but some of us held out hope that this would be the year he could put it together. We were wrong.)

3. Newhouse isn't as ready as we may have hoped.

4. Was Lang a flash in the pan? He seems to be spinning his wheels this year for some reason. Some thought he would push Tauscher (or even Colledge) for a starting position. I will hold off judgment on this one, hoping it is just rust from inactivity due to off-season surgery, combined perhaps with a bit of a sophmore slump.

5. In view of #s 1-4, the O-line may not have the depth we hoped for or thought might exist this year.

6. In spite of pre-season hype, the RB situation is not improved to any significant extent.

7. Morgan Burnett certainly looks like a good choice, but might not be as ready to step in and excel as it looked like he was during practices in shorts.

8. Somewhat contrary to pre-camp reports (and early camp reports) Underwood may be better than last year, but isn't ready to start yet, and may not be all that great yet as a nickel back. Tramon Williams is no Charles Woodson, but is still a big step ahead of the likes of Underwood and Lee at this point.

9. The annual Desmond Bishop hype is showing itself more this year as the hype it is. He's not even playing all that well in preseason, perhaps because he is playing more against #1s and #2s than against #2s and #3s.

10. CJ Wilson isn't as ready as some suggested he might be. Maybe a contributor in the future, but we shouldn't expect too much this year.

11. Justin Harrell will be given every opportunity to make this team and absent an injury will not be any early cut, because without Johnny Jolly, the Packers need Harrell.

Feel free to add to the list, or comment on mine.

[pbmax]

3. Newhouse has looked better at LT than Guard, but so far that has been mostly against 3s. Giacomini has shown that the Packers will spend a spot on a tackle prospect who they don't envision being active at all. So I think there is a chance he sticks instead of Breno.

4. Lang. Has he had his cast/split/club removed? I know that was mentioned as an issue earlier in camp. I am not concerned here unless he won't be cast free by the reg season.

8. I think Lee looked better than Underwood against Seattle. It will be telling if he starts to get reps at nickel with the starters rather than Underwood. Because so far, Underwood has gotten a lot more exposure to the No. 1s.

<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>

12. Tauscher seems to be OK at least in preseason. I was worried that between age and injury, he would drop off again.

13. Neal has delivered quite well. He will help with the rotation and possibly be a better backup than everyone other then Raji was last year. The D line could be better without Jolly. Though it probably won't have as many INTs.

14. Zombo may provide depth enough that Chillar can move back to nickel ILB. Because so far he is a whiff at OLB.

15. Quarless, so far, seems to be working out. Its nice to see the mid-rounders show something early rather than wait the traditional 3 years.

16. D-line aside, I am still worried about pass rush.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I agree with most, but I'll point out some disagreements.


4. Was Lang a flash in the pan? He seems to be spinning his wheels this year for some reason. Some thought he would push Tauscher (or even Colledge) for a starting position. I will hold off judgment on this one, hoping it is just rust from inactivity due to off-season surgery, combined perhaps with a bit of a sophmore slump.

I haven't watched Lang. Has he been bad? Regardless, I'll hold off judging him at this time because he still seems to be recuperating from his injury.


6. In spite of pre-season hype, the RB situation is not improved to any significant extent.

I'd agree regarding the Porter, Starks, Lumpkin, etc. However, I think Jackson looks MUCH improved, and I'm perfectly fine with him if Grant got injured. I also like his as a third down back. He blocks and catches fine. I like our 1-2 punch there. Cheesehead Craig was ahead of his time regarding Jackson. Personally, I thought he looked pedestrian until this year.


11. Justin Harrell will be given every opportunity to make this team and absent an injury will not be any early cut, because without Johnny Jolly, the Packers need Harrell.

Harrell looked pretty good in the first game. I didn't watch him in the second game because I didn't even know he was going to be playing.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I agree with what pb added. I think Lee looked better than Underwood against Seattle. Underwood wasn't horrible in the first game. Gave up some catches, but I liked what he showed tackling. He had a bad game against Seattle.

[mraynrand]

Quinn Johnson had been pretty good in pass protection, and OK run blocking, but how can he stick with hands of stone? Kuhn seems to have received a lot of reps to determine what he can do, and he seems to be doing everything right. If Korey Hall is better than Quinn on special teams, Quinn has to go...right?

[get louder at lambeau]

I agree with what pb added. I think Lee looked better than Underwood against Seattle. Underwood wasn't horrible in the first game. Gave up some catches, but I liked what he showed tackling. He had a bad game against Seattle.

Even Bush looked better than Underwood against Seattle, and Bush didn't have a good game either.

[Brandon494]

Quinn Johnson had been pretty good in pass protection, and OK run blocking, but how can he stick with hands of stone? Kuhn seems to have received a lot of reps to determine what he can do, and he seems to be doing everything right. If Korey Hall is better than Quinn on special teams, Quinn has to go...right?

Id rather us keep Kuhn and Johnson over Kuhn and Hall. Johnson has more potential IMO. We just need to stop throwing the ball to Johnson when we know thats his weakness, just put him in there to block.

[RashanGary]

1. Giacomini has not progressed as much as we hoped, or in some cases were lead to believe. Can't seem to transfer practice performance to game situations. Probably succeeds in practice going against guys he knows well and can anticipate, but doesn't have the reactions necessary (physical/mental/intuitive) to succeed week after week against different players.



Intuitive. That's very interesting. Many personality tests split people between intuitive and sensible. Intuitive people tend to see the big picture, adjust well on the fly and come up with ways to solve new problems. Sensible people tend to enjoy using time tested ways and are very good at following through on tasks. There are people who are probably balanced with both. It does seem football players need to be intuitive.

Brandon Underwood, if he had a big picture grasp of how things fit together, would have known he could play aggressively on underneith coverage when he has deep safety help over the top. Instead, he sits back, lets the guy catch it and then tackles him.

Charles Woodson, for example, is a very intuitive football player. He's the type of player that can see something for the first time and piece together his own way of approaching it that fits within the concept of the defense and gives him a chance to succeed.

Harry Sydney on 107.5 said Mike Sherman always tried to coach every single situation and when something new showed up, he panicked. He says you can't coach everything, sometimes a player has to adjust on the fly to a new wrinkle a team throws. He called people who could do that, "students of the game", but really, I think there is a certain intuitive (big picture) way of looking at things that make some guys natural to football and some guys (no matter how physically gifted) incapable of ever being really good.

[Tony Oday]

Kuhn plays big by the goal line and that is always fun...wonder if they will ever try, in short yardage, Quinn at FB and Kuhn at HB? That could be fun.

Our offense will win our games. Can anyone cover all the threats? No

AR looks like the game is in slow motion for him

Our defense is getting torched...scary

MM only pays lip service to ST because as an emphasis they still blow goats.

DL doesn't seem to me a worry anymore, Jolly will be missed but we have enough guys to rotate and keep the guys fresh

I am LOVING the offensive line. Bulaga seems MEAN...I watched a couple of plays with him and he hits and blocks until the whistle blows...awesome. Wells proves again he is a scrappy center. Dont hear Sittons name = a win. Clifton and Tauch playing like guys of old.

We will be passing to set up the run.

B Jack, who I think is a waste of space until this year, actually looks like the lightbulb might have went off.

Jordy and Jones are a great 1-2 punch at the 3-4.

JF sky is the limit.

Bishop is a ST LB that is it.

Crosby makes me nervous but I am on the bandwagon :)

Havner needs his own action figure

Matt Flynn should punt because looking at this offense it will be surprising to see them NOT score.

[Patler]

I agree with what pb added. I think Lee looked better than Underwood against Seattle. Underwood wasn't horrible in the first game. Gave up some catches, but I liked what he showed tackling. He had a bad game against Seattle.

I almost mentioned that, but had a difficult time determining who each was playing against. Preseason can be so deceiving that way (see Desmond Bishop :lol: ).

From what little I saw of the two, Lee seemed to have more solid tackles, and was generally closer to the ball.

We could very well see Lee get more snaps the next week or so as the nickel back. Underwood has had his chance, and certainly has not impressed.

[vince]

It's hard to tell yet, because Matthews hasn't played, Jones has played only sparingly, and the defensive scheme has been vanilla to say the least, but the lack of pressure on the QB is a concern. Getting pressure on the QB will go a long way toward helping Williams, Underwood, Lee, et. al. in coverage - assuming they reduce the big cushions they've been consistently giving.

I'm still looking forward to seeing Raji make some plays and/or at least stuff the middle in run defense, which to me is making a play for the NT in this D.

Thus far, it appears as if the kicking game is in order, as both punters appear good enough to punt in the NFL, and Crosby has been very solid after starting a little iffy in camp.

The coverage units have got to get better, and I think they will as the musical chairs decrease, the personnel solidifies itself, and the reps increase for those who will be counted on come regular season.

[Patler]

3. Newhouse has looked better at LT than Guard, but so far that has been mostly against 3s. Giacomini has shown that the Packers will spend a spot on a tackle prospect who they don't envision being active at all. So I think there is a chance he sticks instead of Breno.

Yup, could be time to give Newhouse his chance and give up on Giacomini. There isn't room for too many "linemen in training"; and even if they keep two, one could come off another roster at this point.



4. Lang. Has he had his cast/split/club removed? I know that was mentioned as an issue earlier in camp. I am not concerned here unless he won't be cast free by the reg season.

Like I said, I'm not concerned here yet either, but Lang hasn't provided the competition that many thought he would, so in that way it is a little disappointing. Long term I think he will be fine. He was almost too dependable last season not to be again.



12. Tauscher seems to be OK at least in preseason. I was worried that between age and injury, he would drop off again.

For some reason, I was never really worried about Tauscher, probably because he seemed to get better each week last season. Not surprising based on his injury. I thought another off-season would help a lot. When he came back last year, at times he seemed still gimpy. As I recall, he hadn't had his surgery until mid-January due to swelling that they wanted to get under control first, so he was kind of rushed back into service.


13. Neal has delivered quite well. He will help with the rotation and possibly be a better backup than everyone other then Raji was last year. The D line could be better without Jolly. Though it probably won't have as many INTs.

Agreed, a positive surprise, hopefully.

[Patler]

Quinn Johnson had been pretty good in pass protection, and OK run blocking, but how can he stick with hands of stone? Kuhn seems to have received a lot of reps to determine what he can do, and he seems to be doing everything right. If Korey Hall is better than Quinn on special teams, Quinn has to go...right?

But then on Jackson's TD run, Johnson comes around the corner, thumps three guys in the chest one after another and virtually stops them in their tracks without slowing a step himself. I don't know if any one of the three could have gotten to Jackson, but with Johnson between them and Jackson they didn't even get a chance.

[Brandon494]

Kuhn plays big by the goal line and that is always fun...wonder if they will ever try, in short yardage, Quinn at FB and Kuhn at HB? That could be fun.

They ran that a few times in the Seattle game and Kuhn averaged 5 yards a carry yet never broke one over 8 yards.

[denverYooper]

4. Lang. Has he had his cast/split/club removed? I know that was mentioned as an issue earlier in camp. I am not concerned here unless he won't be cast free by the reg season.

Like I said, I'm not concerned here yet either, but Lang hasn't provided the competition that many thought he would, so in that way it is a little disappointing. Long term I think he will be fine. He was almost too dependable last season not to be again.


Hasn't Lang been getting reps at RG behind Sitton so far? There was a lot of speculation on the internets about him competing with Colledge or Tausch this year but GB has him behind Sitton ATM. That strikes me as the toughest place on the line to compete for a starting gig.

I'd like to see him get some more RT reps.

[Tony Oday]

Kuhn plays big by the goal line and that is always fun...wonder if they will ever try, in short yardage, Quinn at FB and Kuhn at HB? That could be fun.

They ran that a few times in the Seattle game and Kuhn averaged 5 yards a carry yet never broke one over 8 yards.

I was talking about the regular season and also in situations where we need 8 inches not yards.

[vince]

Hasn't Lang been getting reps at RG behind Sitton so far? There was a lot of speculation on the internets about him competing with Colledge or Tausch this year but GB has him behind Sitton ATM. That strikes me as the toughest place on the line to compete for a starting gig.

I'd like to see him get some more RT reps.
That'll be starting soon, unless Giacomini shockingly turns it around and makes the squad. With Giaco gone, Lang becomes the back-up RT and RG, and Spitz (depending on whether there are any deals struck involving O-Linemen) has also played RG, so we could see Lang out at RT almost exclusively in the very near future.

Only 12 days remain until the final cuts must be made on September 4.

[pbmax]

Kuhn plays big by the goal line and that is always fun...wonder if they will ever try, in short yardage, Quinn at FB and Kuhn at HB? That could be fun.
They did run those two for a couple of plays in the second half.

Quinn Johnson had one nice checkdown reception before his drop. And his drop was a clear case of looking away too soon. Are we sure he has hands of stone or would experience help?

[mraynrand]

Kuhn plays big by the goal line and that is always fun...wonder if they will ever try, in short yardage, Quinn at FB and Kuhn at HB? That could be fun.
They did run those two for a couple of plays in the second half.

Quinn Johnson had one nice checkdown reception before his drop. And his drop was a clear case of looking away too soon. Are we sure he has hands of stone or would experience help?

I recall another bad drop - not in the Seattle game. What do you think? I'm leaning towards Quinn over Hall, even though I think Hall is a better receiver. I like the fact that Quinn Johnson seems to beat the hell out of anyone he runs into, and he seems reliable in picking up the pass rush. I just have no idea who is better on teams, but my recollection is that Hall is pretty good.

[Patler]

Quinn Johnson had one nice checkdown reception before his drop. And his drop was a clear case of looking away too soon. Are we sure he has hands of stone or would experience help?

I'm hoping the experience thing is part of it. As I recall, last year Johnson said catching a football was something he was never asked to do before.

[Patler]

I'm leaning towards Quinn over Hall, even though I think Hall is a better receiver. I like the fact that Quinn Johnson seems to beat the hell out of anyone he runs into, and he seems reliable in picking up the pass rush. I just have no idea who is better on teams, but my recollection is that Hall is pretty good.

That's one of the rubs, reports out of camp are that Johnson has been very disappointing on special teams. Too bad, he's big, fast enough, physical and a former linebacker. You would think he would be cutout for special teams.

My concern with Hall has been injuries. He has missed games every year so far due to injuries, and face it, he isn't even on the field for all that many plays each game.

[sharpe1027]

Quinn Johnson had one nice checkdown reception before his drop. And his drop was a clear case of looking away too soon. Are we sure he has hands of stone or would experience help?

First, how important is catching the ball? I mean, the threat is nice enough to have, but Hall and Kuhn are both better threats, so if they keep one of them, they and can rotate in. Also, an opposing defense can't just ignore him because he *might* drop it.

On the other hand, he's had a full year knowing it was his weakness. If that wasn't enough to make significant improvement, you have to wonder if he will ever figure it out.

[Joemailman]

Considering how much FB's are on the field, which is maybe 1/3 of the time, can you really justify keeping a 3rd fullback who doesn't excel on special teams?. Especially with the injuries at other positions?

[Fritz]

Interesting dilemma - Hall, who is hurt often, or Johnson, who does not appear to do well on special teams?

I'm a little disappointed with Lang. I truly thought he'd be starting somewhere on the line this year (at the beginning, not due to injiury. But I'm not panicked.

The Giacomini experiment seems over, as does the Barbre experiemt. I think this means if the coaches really like Newhouse he'll make the 53 but be inactive. Teams seem to sniff out the Packers' PS guys (Meredith, for one) so I don't think Newhouse would surive.

I keep hearing EDS is becoming indispensable on ST.

Lee seems to be coming on a little bit and may be ready to play the nickel.

I wish we knew more about how Brad Jones is or isn't progressing.

One of the things that was supposed to happen this camp is that CMIII was supposed to use it to work on new moves. Well, that didn't happen. Will that affect his ability to get to the QB this year?

Desmond Bishop is what he is.

Cross your fingers that Justin Harrell holds up.

Jarius Wynn has been mildly disappointing.

Mike Neal, by all accounts, is going to play some snaps this year based on what he's shown.

The 7th round pick Wilson looks like practice squad fodder.

Bulaga seems a pleasant surprise, seeming ready to play right away - at least until Campen coaches him for a while. Hey, maybe that's what happened to Lang! He got coached by Campen!

Blackmon - we still don't know if he can play safety.

B-Jack seems most improved.

[pbmax]

Kuhn plays big by the goal line and that is always fun...wonder if they will ever try, in short yardage, Quinn at FB and Kuhn at HB? That could be fun.
They did run those two for a couple of plays in the second half.

Quinn Johnson had one nice checkdown reception before his drop. And his drop was a clear case of looking away too soon. Are we sure he has hands of stone or would experience help?

I recall another bad drop - not in the Seattle game. What do you think? I'm leaning towards Quinn over Hall, even though I think Hall is a better receiver. I like the fact that Quinn Johnson seems to beat the hell out of anyone he runs into, and he seems reliable in picking up the pass rush. I just have no idea who is better on teams, but my recollection is that Hall is pretty good.
Its an odd thing, learning to catch. Backs who have never before been asked to block LBs seem to be able to learn it. Remember that Wynn (I think it was Wynn) had an edge on BJack earlier in their careers because Wynn was the better blocker? Now Jackson tatoos people.

But catching a ball seems to elude some players. If the coaches think its a matter of experience, I think you have to keep Johnson and live with the Special Team dropoff if you have to release Hall.

By the way, the best 3rd down back I remember, short of a future starter playing behind a vet was Calvin Hill. He got the job in Cleveland because he could block and catch and had the brains to know when to do each. He was unstoppable on 3rd down even though my Grandmother was faster.

[Fritz]

I think he played for the Cowboys, didn't he?

[The Shadow]

I havie a sneaking suspicion that Donald Lee may find himself an odd man out this year.

[Joemailman]

Some notes from Monday Night's practice.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/101339119.html

Justin Harrell is practicing

Colledge takes first LG rep in 40 min corrections period

Chillar working inside in nickel.

Spitz mixing in a little more a center. He played very well there the other night

Looks like Shields took Jarrett Bush's spot on KO. Beginning of the end? Could just be looking at different people.

Bulaga had left the field. He's back but not sure if he's going back into drills. He's walking pretty slow

It appears Bulaga has dropped out of practice. He's just watching.

Looks like Cullen Jenkins has dropped out with a left calf injury. Being iced up now

Shields also on 1 PR. Looks like Jarrett Bush has demoted on all special teams

[wist43]

We're mid-way thru camp, and I'm more concerned now than I was 3 weeks ago.

I have serious reservations as to what is happening the defensive side of the ball... I don't expect them to come out and play a 2-5 front very often; but still, what we've seen of the defense has been distressing.

Harrell is a non-factor; Raji is sleepwalking; we've flopped multiple players to different positions - universally bad moves IMO; Lee?? Bush?? Underwood?? those guys are going to be seeing a lot of playing time - what are the odds they all hold up??; we have 2 proven NFL DL (Jenkins and Pickett), and a bunch of unproven young guys; our LB'ing situation as a whole is a mess, such a mess in fact that the coaches biggest dilemma is trying to find playing time for Brandon Chillar, or possibly starting Zombo :shock: :shock: :shock:

Then there is my nagging distrust of Capers :D

I hope they pull it together, but I haven't seen much to be encouraged about on the defensive side of the ball.

[Tony Oday]

We're mid-way thru camp, and I'm more concerned now than I was 3 weeks ago.

I have serious reservations as to what is happening the defensive side of the ball... I don't expect them to come out and play a 2-5 front very often; but still, what we've seen of the defense has been distressing.

Harrell is a non-factor; Raji is sleepwalking; we've flopped multiple players to different positions - universally bad moves IMO; Lee?? Bush?? Underwood?? those guys are going to be seeing a lot of playing time - what are the odds they all hold up??; we have 2 proven NFL DL (Jenkins and Pickett), and a bunch of unproven young guys; our LB'ing situation as a whole is a mess, such a mess in fact that the coaches biggest dilemma is trying to find playing time for Brandon Chillar, or possibly starting Zombo :shock: :shock: :shock:

Then there is my nagging distrust of Capers :D

I hope they pull it together, but I haven't seen much to be encouraged about on the defensive side of the ball.

Skeptical Rat? I am saying Chicken Little Rat :)

[wist43]

We're mid-way thru camp, and I'm more concerned now than I was 3 weeks ago.

I have serious reservations as to what is happening the defensive side of the ball... I don't expect them to come out and play a 2-5 front very often; but still, what we've seen of the defense has been distressing.

Harrell is a non-factor; Raji is sleepwalking; we've flopped multiple players to different positions - universally bad moves IMO; Lee?? Bush?? Underwood?? those guys are going to be seeing a lot of playing time - what are the odds they all hold up??; we have 2 proven NFL DL (Jenkins and Pickett), and a bunch of unproven young guys; our LB'ing situation as a whole is a mess, such a mess in fact that the coaches biggest dilemma is trying to find playing time for Brandon Chillar, or possibly starting Zombo :shock: :shock: :shock:

Then there is my nagging distrust of Capers :D

I hope they pull it together, but I haven't seen much to be encouraged about on the defensive side of the ball.

Skeptical Rat? I am saying Chicken Little Rat :)

Did you watch any of that mess the other night??? :D

Granted, it's only preseason, but good grief man, that was ugly :bs2:

[pbmax]

I think he played for the Cowboys, didn't he?
Earlier in his career, yes.

[pbmax]

JSO has Justin Harrell's effort vs. Seattle pegged as the worst of his abbreviated career. I saw him four times be in position (one tackle, one pass rush) and the other 13 plays he apparently was on the ground.

JSO seems to link the poor balance to his problems with his back from last week practice or his new family. But I wonder if he had problems with the cut blocking as well.

I hope he can power through the back soreness and regain his strength. They need him.

Also, Bedard mentions that Woodson did not like the Packers attitude prior to the AZ playoff game. He wrote this in a preview for ESPNChicago. Does anyone remember a reference to this in his JSO reporting? or anywhere?

[MichiganPackerFan]

OK, I know it is over half way; but we have two games in the can, two more to go. So lets discuss what has changed from the start of camp to now. What did we think (or hope) that looks like it might not pan out....

Great list, but it does have a Wisty feel to it.