Do The Packers Have The Right Coaching Staff?

[Tarlam!]

I like TT. I think he does his homework with recruiting UFAs and Drafting. I really do. I have no issues with him being introverted. Completely opposite of RG, in fact. No harm in that.

But the whole "concerns" thread got me thinking about the coaching, especially positional, question. There's no question M3 is a QB guru, but is he the right guy for HC? His role is to see to it that he has a staff of coaches that excell at teaching. I don't know that he has assembled that.


I've always been a fan of M3, from day 1. But, I am beginning to have some doubts.

Any thoughts?

[sharpe1027]

I think it has been a mixed bag. There have been some coaches that many outside observers were pulling their hair out about, one of the worst was Schottenheimer. However, MM probably deserves some credit for (finally) cleaning house in 2008. I wonder, though, whether he only makes changes when forced to do so.

Still, there's some coaching successes. I like what I hear about Bennett, and he's done a good job coaching up some scrap heap RBs to be serviceable. LBers have had good success and development as well.

[pbmax]

Perry/Whitt: They did a good job with the transition last year but are still looking for a 3rd/4th CB (without Al/with Al). If Shields or someone improves over last year, they look good. It looks like they will get a rookie safety ready for the NFL.

Greene: Matthews and Jones are pluses. Poppinga still valuable in a limited way for a system that may not play to his strengths. Zombo. Keeper.

Moss: Hawk is assignment sure but he hasn't gotten him to next level, but seems to have done that to Barnett prior to knee injury. Bishop still having assignment issues. A big mixed bag. Frankenbacker gives him an edge but eminently replaceable.

Mike Trgovac: Neal. Harrell actually playing. Pickett at DE and Raji ready for nose. Jolly and Jenkins transition well, even if Jenkins was a bit sore about missing pass rush opportunities. Definite win. He and Perry could be DC candidates.

Philbin: No flash, but the offense has been flat good and running game has been steady if not spectacular. McCarthy was not always associated with barnburner offenses, he has had his share of stinkers. I think Philbin helps him. Like Fritz Shurmur, might not get credit or a HC gig despite everyone around him thinking he is ready. Might need to go be a OC with a former DC coach to get recognized. Keeper.

Bennett: RBs seem to be getting better (Jackson couldn't block when he got here) and he has really instilled a ball security mentality) and the backups are ready. Lumpkin, Wynn, Porter, and Sutton all performed well. Keeper.

Jimmy Robinson: Has a wide range of physical talent levels. They have all gotten better. KEEPER.

James Campen: Please read 193 threads about any of the OL. Has not gotten a hit off one of the later round developmental guys though EDS and Newhouse might change this. Wells is performing at a high level but he was a Philbin project first. If you think coaches are over-rated in terms of player development, then James Campen is your poster child. Should be replaced.

Bob McAdoo: Great power forward. Finley, Frankenbacker. Crabtree looks serviceable at a minimum. Donald Lee developed a case of the drops, seems to have fixed it, also has kept his head in his game despite being moved to 2nd TE. Keeper.

Tom Clements: Rodgers had one bad terrible pre-season and has been ascending since. Flynn has developed nicely. Brohm was a washout but hasn't established himself elsewhere yet. Keeper.

[mraynrand]

PB, I like your analysis of Philbin. It's like Lewis under Holmgren: you just never know about a guy until he gets out there and is in charge. McCarthy simply has too much control over the offense to know what the hell Philbin is responsible for. Of course, my favorite example of not knowing til ya get out there is Marty Mornhinweg. LOL

[Scott Campbell]

Career record 38-26-0 (.594)

Despite his record, I think McCarthy's been a mixed bag. He can't really afford anymore seasons like 08.

[Smidgeon]

Despite his record, I think McCarthy's been a mixed bag. He can't really afford anymore seasons like 08.

You mean the year the Barnum and Favrely Brothers Circus came into town? And the year the Bob Sanders Defense express didn't? :mrgreen:

[pbmax]

PB, I like your analysis of Philbin. It's like Lewis under Holmgren: you just never know about a guy until he gets out there and is in charge. McCarthy simply has too much control over the offense to know what the hell Philbin is responsible for. Of course, my favorite example of not knowing til ya get out there is Marty Mornhinweg. LOL
I wonder about that guy. He did OK with San Fran and Mooch and as Reid's OC. I think he could handle the coordinator job. But that would be it.

[falco]

I understand how some could have complaints with certain aspects of our coaching staff. However, we put together the #2 ranked defense last year, and our offensive has put up big numbers over the last 2 years and looks to be explosive this year. I'm not complaining.

[Tarlam!]

I understand how some could have complaints with certain aspects of our coaching staff. However, we put together the #2 ranked defense last year, and our offensive has put up big numbers over the last 2 years and looks to be explosive this year. I'm not complaining.

I'm not complaing either, but I notice our ST's will still suck this year. I'm glad we finally have a rookie that gets it on the OL. First time for everything.

I wonder if M3 has the balls to take this team all the way.

[mission]

I think we're B+ in just about every area except STs and OL, which I rate worse.

Most of you know I'm not the *biggest* fan of MM and even Capers at times last year. I feel like we leave points/yards on the field from coaching ineptitude in certain situations.

[get louder at lambeau]

McCarthy is smart (enough), steady, rational, and a hard worker. I'd hire him to run my company.

[Patler]

McCarthy is smart (enough), steady, rational, and a hard worker. I'd hire him to run my company.

I wouldn't.

In answer to the topic question, no I don't think they have the right coaching staff. That doesn't mean that they can't win a Super bowl with this staff, most staffs are capable of doing that if things fall correctly. But can this staff put together a long run with multiple Super Bowl appearances? I doubt it.

Several reasons:
1. McCarthy has not shown to me that he can regularly "out coach" other teams. To be a consistent contender you need to do that.
2. You have to be able to make do and win with whatever happens to your roster. This is closely tied to #1. MM hasn't shown a consistent ability to do that, in my opinion.

This doesn't mean I dislike MM, or that he should necessarily be shown the door. He is better than many others, but not elite in my opinion. So you keep him to see if he gets better. He might be a GREAT OC on the staff of forceful defensive-minded head coach who would turn the offense over to him to handle.

[get louder at lambeau]

McCarthy is smart (enough), steady, rational, and a hard worker. I'd hire him to run my company.

I wouldn't.

In answer to the topic question, no I don't think they have the right coaching staff. That doesn't mean that they can't win a Super bowl with this staff, most staffs are capable of doing that if things fall correctly. But can this staff put together a long run with multiple Super Bowl appearances? I doubt it.

Several reasons:
1. McCarthy has not shown to me that he can regularly "out coach" other teams. To be a consistent contender you need to do that.
2. You have to be able to make do and win with whatever happens to your roster. This is closely tied to #1. MM hasn't shown a consistent ability to do that, in my opinion.

I know it's a bad idea to disagree with Patler, but fuck it, I disagree.

1. McCarthy calls the offensive plays, and every single loss we had last year was pretty much all on the defense. Dom Capers didn't outcoach the other teams, not McCarthy.
2. What coaches have shown the ability to do that- consistently win no matter what happens to your roster? That bar is set way too high.

[Merlin]

I don't disagree with Patler.

I like McCarthy but some of his decisions are mind boggling in game situations. Capers, the jury is still out. I know he is a smart guy but some of his play calling leaves me scratching my head. I think Philbin is a turn key because McCarthy runs the offense so I am not too sure why we are paying the guy.

[denverYooper]

PB, I like your analysis of Philbin. It's like Lewis under Holmgren: you just never know about a guy until he gets out there and is in charge. McCarthy simply has too much control over the offense to know what the hell Philbin is responsible for.

Most every quote on the offensive line this year has come from Philbin. It sure feels like he's taking a pretty active role in coaching those guys this year.

[Smidgeon]

Interesting take on who's responsible for the QBs' development. From Aaron Rodgers via ESPN's Seifert (when asked if he thinks about his future legacy):

"Not really, to be honest with you. I'm a pretty regimented guy. I'm blessed with one of the great teachers in the game in [quarterbacks coach] Tom Clements. And we're always working. His best quality is not letting me be content with where I am as a player, and to always point out things I can improve on. That's how I stay motivated in the offseason. One thing I do realize is that as our team's success goes, then all of our individual success goes. And keeping that I mind, I think we can all have a lot of success this year."

With all that, maybe Clements has more of a hand in the QBs than anyone outside thought. I always thought it was McCarthy. But maybe M3 does a good job of coaching his staff to be good coaches. Don't know...

[Fritz]

McCarthy is smart (enough), steady, rational, and a hard worker. I'd hire him to run my company.

I wouldn't.

In answer to the topic question, no I don't think they have the right coaching staff. That doesn't mean that they can't win a Super bowl with this staff, most staffs are capable of doing that if things fall correctly. But can this staff put together a long run with multiple Super Bowl appearances? I doubt it.

Several reasons:
1. McCarthy has not shown to me that he can regularly "out coach" other teams. To be a consistent contender you need to do that.
2. You have to be able to make do and win with whatever happens to your roster. This is closely tied to #1. MM hasn't shown a consistent ability to do that, in my opinion.

This doesn't mean I dislike MM, or that he should necessarily be shown the door. He is better than many others, but not elite in my opinion. So you keep him to see if he gets better. He might be a GREAT OC on the staff of forceful defensive-minded head coach who would turn the offense over to him to handle.

Hey, isn't this what we already have?

[sharpe1027]

McCarthy is smart (enough), steady, rational, and a hard worker. I'd hire him to run my company.

I wouldn't.

In answer to the topic question, no I don't think they have the right coaching staff. That doesn't mean that they can't win a Super bowl with this staff, most staffs are capable of doing that if things fall correctly. But can this staff put together a long run with multiple Super Bowl appearances? I doubt it.

Several reasons:
1. McCarthy has not shown to me that he can regularly "out coach" other teams. To be a consistent contender you need to do that.
2. You have to be able to make do and win with whatever happens to your roster. This is closely tied to #1. MM hasn't shown a consistent ability to do that, in my opinion.

This doesn't mean I dislike MM, or that he should necessarily be shown the door. He is better than many others, but not elite in my opinion. So you keep him to see if he gets better. He might be a GREAT OC on the staff of forceful defensive-minded head coach who would turn the offense over to him to handle.

Hey, isn't this what we already have?

I was thinking the same thing.

Patler, we basically have the reverse of what you stated. An offensive-mined head coach with an (arguably) great DC. Any particular reason that you think that the HC should be defensive minded instead of offensive minded?

[mraynrand]

PB, I like your analysis of Philbin. It's like Lewis under Holmgren: you just never know about a guy until he gets out there and is in charge. McCarthy simply has too much control over the offense to know what the hell Philbin is responsible for.

Most every quote on the offensive line this year has come from Philbin. It sure feels like he's taking a pretty active role in coaching those guys this year.

OK, I don't doubt that. I was speculating on whether he will be able to coach at the next level, which is a whole different animal. McCarthy seems to have all the authority, much like Holmgren. Philbin could be entirely ready to coach at the next level - I'm only saying that McCarthy's apparent total control makes it hard to tell.

[mraynrand]

McCarthy is smart (enough), steady, rational, and a hard worker. I'd hire him to run my company.

I wouldn't.

In answer to the topic question, no I don't think they have the right coaching staff. That doesn't mean that they can't win a Super bowl with this staff, most staffs are capable of doing that if things fall correctly. But can this staff put together a long run with multiple Super Bowl appearances? I doubt it.

Several reasons:
1. McCarthy has not shown to me that he can regularly "out coach" other teams. To be a consistent contender you need to do that.
2. You have to be able to make do and win with whatever happens to your roster. This is closely tied to #1. MM hasn't shown a consistent ability to do that, in my opinion.

This doesn't mean I dislike MM, or that he should necessarily be shown the door. He is better than many others, but not elite in my opinion. So you keep him to see if he gets better. He might be a GREAT OC on the staff of forceful defensive-minded head coach who would turn the offense over to him to handle.

Hey, isn't this what we already have?

I was thinking the same thing.

Patler, we basically have the reverse of what you stated. An offensive-mined head coach with an (arguably) great DC. Any particular reason that you think that the HC should be defensive minded instead of offensive minded?

So we have a Great OC and a Great DC. What the hell does the Head Coach do anyway but worry a lot and fuck up the replay and 4th and short calls?

[sharpe1027]

So we have a Great OC and a Great DC. What the hell does the Head Coach do anyway but worry a lot and fuck up the replay and 4th and short calls?

Isn't MM pretty heavily involved in the OC duties? I would say that it is more along the lines of the HC does the job of the OC, so what does the OC have to worry about?

[Patler]

McCarthy is smart (enough), steady, rational, and a hard worker. I'd hire him to run my company.

I wouldn't.

In answer to the topic question, no I don't think they have the right coaching staff. That doesn't mean that they can't win a Super bowl with this staff, most staffs are capable of doing that if things fall correctly. But can this staff put together a long run with multiple Super Bowl appearances? I doubt it.

Several reasons:
1. McCarthy has not shown to me that he can regularly "out coach" other teams. To be a consistent contender you need to do that.
2. You have to be able to make do and win with whatever happens to your roster. This is closely tied to #1. MM hasn't shown a consistent ability to do that, in my opinion.

This doesn't mean I dislike MM, or that he should necessarily be shown the door. He is better than many others, but not elite in my opinion. So you keep him to see if he gets better. He might be a GREAT OC on the staff of forceful defensive-minded head coach who would turn the offense over to him to handle.

Hey, isn't this what we already have?

I was thinking the same thing.

Patler, we basically have the reverse of what you stated. An offensive-mined head coach with an (arguably) great DC. Any particular reason that you think that the HC should be defensive minded instead of offensive minded?

I'm not convinced MM is a great HC type coach for the reasons I stated.
I think he can be a great OC.
An OC has full reign to run the the O only if the HC stays out of his way.
Offensive minded HC's (MM, Holmgren etc.) never fully give up control of the O.
Therefore, to use his full potential. MM would have to work for a defensive-minded HC.

It has nothing to do with whether a defensive-minded or offensive-minded person makes a better HC, Just that MM could be a great OC for an HC that stays out of his way on offense.

[Patler]

MM as the HC designs the formats of practices, training camp, etc. He has taken great pains to design the "perfect" TC that gets the work done, keeps players fresh by never having back-to-back two-a-day practices, follows night practices with days off, etc. etc. A lot of what he has done has been described as new and innovative, different from what other teams do.

Yet, year after year his Packer teams have started the seasons like crap. Somehow, his training camp philosophy has not prepared his teams to start the season.