What Are You People Thinking?

[Tarlam!]

Look, I love the USA and I adore Americans.

But do any of you have any idea what "Bratwurst" means? You people stew these things in beer, wine I dunno what else!

Brat is the German word for fry, or broil. Wurst ist the type of sausage. So, Bratwurst is basically fried sausage.

OK, I just took my meds, I'm sure I#ll be calm shortly.

[mraynrand]

Our High School cheerleaders used to chant:

OOO sah sah sah
OOO sah sah sah
Hit 'em in the head
With a big Kielbasa

[Little Whiskey]

Look, I love the USA and I adore Americans.

But do any of you have any idea what "Bratwurst" means? You people stew these things in beer, wine I dunno what else!

Brat is the German word for fry, or broil. Wurst ist the type of sausage. So, Bratwurst is basically fried sausage.

OK, I just took my meds, I'm sure I#ll be calm shortly.

yep, fried on the grill after its bathed in a beer and onion bath. actually they go in and out of said bath. all done on the grill. I wouldn't have them any other way.

[hoosier]

Look, I love the USA and I adore Americans.

But do any of you have any idea what "Bratwurst" means? You people stew these things in beer, wine I dunno what else!

Brat is the German word for fry, or broil. Wurst ist the type of sausage. So, Bratwurst is basically fried sausage.

OK, I just took my meds, I'm sure I#ll be calm shortly.

Boiling in beer is done for the supposed added taste or out of squeamishness--fear of getting trichinosis from undercooked pork. After that they go on the grill. Boiling is never the end of the story. So you can laugh at us for being pansies or for not having the patience to cook a brat through on the grill, but don't even think of accusing us of not knowing how to fry things! :lol:

[Little Whiskey]

no doubt hoosier about american's frying things. Tar you should come to one of the many state fairs. I've seen everything fried, even beer!

[Joemailman]

Look, I love the USA and I adore Americans.

But do any of you have any idea what "Bratwurst" means? You people stew these things in beer, wine I dunno what else!

Brat is the German word for fry, or broil. Wurst ist the type of sausage. So, Bratwurst is basically fried sausage.

OK, I just took my meds, I'm sure I#ll be calm shortly.

yep, fried on the grill after its bathed in a beer and onion bath. actually they go in and out of said bath. all done on the grill. I wouldn't have them any other way.

But cooking on a grill is not frying. Frying is cooking immersed in hot oil or fat. What we do is boiling followed by grilling. Damn! I we going to have to change the name to Grillwurst?

[red]

you mean like deep frying?

MY IDEA, STAY THE FUCK AWAY!!!!!!

brats deep fried in a nice beer batter, like a corn dog

yeah tar boiling them in beer and onions is just half of the process, after that we grill them or fry them in a pan. i usually grill them

[Patler]

Personally, I do not boil the brats. I grill them only, and gently enough so as not to rupture the casings. It takes a little longer, but they end up much more flavorful and much more naturally moist than boiling them first.

[Cheesehead Craig]

If you boil the brats the terrorists win.

[Little Whiskey]

don't brats self fry? the amount of fat that is in them frys the meat from the inside out!

I think most people run into problems cooking brats on the grill because they have the heat set too high. low and slow. its not a steak or hamburger

[red]

Personally, I do not boil the brats. I grill them only, and gently enough so as not to rupture the casings. It takes a little longer, but they end up much more flavorful and much more naturally moist than boiling them first.

YOU LIE!!!!!!

boiling in beer makes everything better. how could it not, it's beer

[3irty1]

Look, I love the USA and I adore Americans.

But do any of you have any idea what "Bratwurst" means? You people stew these things in beer, wine I dunno what else!

Brat is the German word for fry, or broil. Wurst ist the type of sausage. So, Bratwurst is basically fried sausage.

OK, I just took my meds, I'm sure I#ll be calm shortly.

America is a young country with relatively little tradition and thus more accepting of change when its for the better. America is a breeding ground for innovation. Doesn't mean you can't have a German style brat in Wisconsin, our gas stations are full of them.

I'll share two of my all time favorite preparations:

When at home, I "stew" my brats in the pressure cooker before they take to the grill. This takes only a minute, requires only one can of beer, and in that short amount of time, the beer flavor is deeply imparted without risk of rupturing the casings with a long cooking time. After a quick mark on the grill these are ready to go. With this method I leave the onions out and instead saute julienned onions and bell peppers in clarified butter separately. This allows me to leave some crunch in them and also gives me a chance to season the vegetables.

This next method is a restaurant preparation but the ambitious home cook could pull it off as well.

For this the brats are prepared using a technique known as sous vide which is French for "under vacuum." For those who are unfamiliar cooking sous vide implies vacuum sealing the food and marinade in a bag and then cooking the food in the bag by immersing it in a heated water bath which is generally kept at a very precise temperature often using lab equipment. Cooking low and slow for long cooking times results in tender juicy meat which has stewed in its own juice and is cooked cooked evenly to the temperature of the water bath. I'll discuss how a cook can pull this off at home without restaurant resources.

First the brats are sealed, with onions and a few ounces of beer in the vacuum bag and cooked in a 140 degree F (enough to cook the pork/veal but not enough to rupture the casing, especially not of a sausage that is under vacuum.) water bath for about two and a half hours. When done, the brats are quickly marked on the grill. This method works best with some casings better than others as the goal is to achieve a brat without a rubbery casing by breaking it down with long cooking times. Leaner brats also work well as they are not on the grill long enough to render off much fat and thus will seem extra greasy.

In the restaurant two of these were served open face on a toasted rye roll, topped with pickled onions and a wasabi-mustard emulsion.

To sous vide at home try using zip-lock freezer bags or a foodsaver if you've got one. You'll have to freeze the beer first if using a foodsaver or it will suck out the liquid unlike a commercial cryovac. The water bath can be approximated heating water on the stove top to a few degrees above the desired temperature and then poured into a typical beer cooler which is as good at keeping hot things hot as it is at keeping cold things cold. Toss in the brats, shut the lid and wait. I've done this while tailgating before to achieve perfect 130-degree-F-medium-rare-all-the-way through hamburgers.

[SkinBasket]

I could totally go for a 63 degree egg and toast right now. Gives me a hard on just thinking about it.

[mraynrand]

Cooking low and slow for long cooking times results in tender juicy meat which has stewed in its own juice and is cooked cooked evenly to the temperature of the water bath.

Sounds like growing up bacteria in the lab.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I usually do a slow 1-2 hour simmer in beer, yellow onions, crushed garlic, butter and some other secret items. After that I finish them on a hot grill to sear the outside leaving them slightly crispy on the outside and juicy in the middle. Served on a grilled bun with the above mentioned onions, saurkraut and horseradish mustard is wonderful.

This past weekend I strayed away from my typical Pilsner simmer and instead used Guinness, onions and butter and got a really good product. Served with a side of german potato salad. (does anyone have any good recipes or tips for the latter to take it from good/really good to great?)

[retailguy]

Personally, I do not boil the brats. I grill them only, and gently enough so as not to rupture the casings. It takes a little longer, but they end up much more flavorful and much more naturally moist than boiling them first.

Yup! This. You can marinate in Beer, but boil? HELL NO.

I don't worry so much about "cracking" the casing, but you gotta keep the heat low.

You boil out all the flavor. YUCK.

[3irty1]

I usually do a slow 1-2 hour simmer in beer, yellow onions, crushed garlic, butter and some other secret items. After that I finish them on a hot grill to sear the outside leaving them slightly crispy on the outside and juicy in the middle. Served on a grilled bun with the above mentioned onions, saurkraut and horseradish mustard is wonderful.

This past weekend I strayed away from my typical Pilsner simmer and instead used Guinness, onions and butter and got a really good product. Served with a side of german potato salad. (does anyone have any good recipes or tips for the latter to take it from good/really good to great?)

Good German potato salad has a sweet and sour combination.

1/2 lb lean bacon
3 T flour
1/4 small onion chopped
2/3 c apple cider vinegar
2/3 c water
1/4 c sugar
1/4 c brown sugar
4 t salt
1/2 t black pepper
1 t dry mustard
1 t chopped rosemary
3 lbs potatoes, peeled, boiled until tender and cubed. I like waxy ones like yukon gold.
1/2 c parsley, chopped

Put bacon in a large, oven safe frying pan such as cast iron and bake at 300 until crisp and pan is loaded with beautifully rendered clear bacon fat. Move pan to stove top. Reserve bacon on paper towels. Add flour and onion to pan. Stir in vinegar, water, sugars, salt and spices. Cook over medium heat until thickened. Combine with potatoes, crumbled or chopped bacon and parsley.

[3irty1]

Personally, I do not boil the brats. I grill them only, and gently enough so as not to rupture the casings. It takes a little longer, but they end up much more flavorful and much more naturally moist than boiling them first.

Yup! This. You can marinate in Beer, but boil? HELL NO.

I don't worry so much about "cracking" the casing, but you gotta keep the heat low.

You boil out all the flavor. YUCK.

Another advantage of the pressure cooker. Less beer wasted, more flavor reserved. I'm with Patler that cracking the casing is not a good thing.

[CaptainKickass]

I usually do a slow 1-2 hour simmer in beer, yellow onions, crushed garlic, butter and some other secret items. After that I finish them on a hot grill to sear the outside leaving them slightly crispy on the outside and juicy in the middle. Served on a grilled bun with the above mentioned onions, saurkraut and horseradish mustard is wonderful.

This past weekend I strayed away from my typical Pilsner simmer and instead used Guinness, onions and butter and got a really good product. Served with a side of german potato salad. (does anyone have any good recipes or tips for the latter to take it from good/really good to great?)

+1

Guiness works - I've done it because I couldn't go to the store for a cheaper brew and was pressed for time. But i find that cheaper beer works best with this recipe, plus Guiness is a preferred drink to say - PBR for instance.

The only small differences in prep are: I use the big purple onions instead and no butter. Them bastards can simmer all day if you want. I've put 'em on to simmer intending to grill before the early Sunday game and ended up not firing up the grill until halftime of the late game. After the brats go on the grill, I strain the onions/garlic and then saute them w/a touch of wine to caramelize. There's nothing like the smell of sauteed onions and garlic.

The only thing better - is to wrap them bastards in a slice of bacon while grilling. Soak some wood toothpicks in water to secure the bacon around the brats. Yes you pierce the casing on the ends of the brats doing this but it's a non-factor if you've simmered the brats long enough. If using thick sliced bacon - pre-fry the slices slightly before wrapping - but don't overcook the bacon as it will break while wrapping. This will also help limit the flame ups while grilling.

Adding bacon does mean a whole different approach to grilling because, as mentioned above, the bacon and brat combo WILL flame the hell up on you constantly - and likely singe your hair and eyebrows if you do not adjust your technique. I use a half grill hot side and a half grill warm side. I use long METAL tongs w/no plastic or rubber and I wear an old welding glove to hold the tongs. Also leave the grill lid open, and adjust the height of the grill itself depending on your grill.

It'll take you a few rounds to perfect your grilling technique - making sure the bacon is fully cooked, getting your grill marks, and flipping appropriately as well as moving between the hot side and warm side of the grill. I'd start by cooking one or two at a time. Once you figure it out - then you can do a dozen at a time.

[mraynrand]

Guiness works - I've done it because I couldn't go to the store for a cheaper brew and was pressed for time. But i find that cheaper beer works best with this recipe, plus Guiness is a preferred drink to say - PBR for instance.

Water is a preferred drink to PBR. PBR, the Grain Belt of Wisconsin.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Good German potato salad has a sweet and sour combination.

1/2 lb lean bacon
3 T flour
1/4 small onion chopped
2/3 c apple cider vinegar
2/3 c water
1/4 c sugar
1/4 c brown sugar
4 t salt
1/2 t black pepper
1 t dry mustard
1 t chopped rosemary
3 lbs potatoes, peeled, boiled until tender and cubed. I like waxy ones like yukon gold.
1/2 c parsley, chopped

Put bacon in a large, oven safe frying pan such as cast iron and bake at 300 until crisp and pan is loaded with beautifully rendered clear bacon fat. Move pan to stove top. Reserve bacon on paper towels. Add flour and onion to pan. Stir in vinegar, water, sugars, salt and spices. Cook over medium heat until thickened. Combine with potatoes, crumbled or chopped bacon and parsley.

I like the addition of rosemary. Surprisingly that never occurred to me. And I totally forgot the parsley this time. My grandfather made me swear by redskins, and I'm okay with that. I usually cut the potatoes just in half before boiling and then cut each half into slices like a loaf of bread. I like the taste of celery seed as well. I've been using white vinegar, but the apple cider sounds like it may add a more robust flavor.

[3irty1]

Good German potato salad has a sweet and sour combination.

1/2 lb lean bacon
3 T flour
1/4 small onion chopped
2/3 c apple cider vinegar
2/3 c water
1/4 c sugar
1/4 c brown sugar
4 t salt
1/2 t black pepper
1 t dry mustard
1 t chopped rosemary
3 lbs potatoes, peeled, boiled until tender and cubed. I like waxy ones like yukon gold.
1/2 c parsley, chopped

Put bacon in a large, oven safe frying pan such as cast iron and bake at 300 until crisp and pan is loaded with beautifully rendered clear bacon fat. Move pan to stove top. Reserve bacon on paper towels. Add flour and onion to pan. Stir in vinegar, water, sugars, salt and spices. Cook over medium heat until thickened. Combine with potatoes, crumbled or chopped bacon and parsley.

I like the addition of rosemary. Surprisingly that never occurred to me. And I totally forgot the parsley this time. My grandfather made me swear by redskins, and I'm okay with that. I usually cut the potatoes just in half before boiling and then cut each half into slices like a loaf of bread. I like the taste of celery seed as well. I've been using white vinegar, but the apple cider sounds like it may add a more robust flavor.
Reds are very appropriate. Anything works well but reds have good potato flavor and a forgiving starch level for boiled potatoes that you don't want to be mush.

White vinegar works, apple cider has synergy with rosemary and bacon. I've subbed ver jus and reduced the sugar level to make it wine friendly before.

[Little Whiskey]

I know this is slightly thread jacking but.......i don't care! :)

I need a good rub for baby back ribs.

[MJZiggy]

And the Gourmet thread is reborn!

[Little Whiskey]

And the Gourmet thread is reborn!

just because tarlam started bitching about beer brats! :lol:

[MJZiggy]

And the Gourmet thread is reborn!

just because tarlam started bitching about beer brats! :lol:

He caused two pages just on the brats...

[3irty1]

I know this is slightly thread jacking but.......i don't care! :)

I need a good rub for baby back ribs.

I like a kansas city style rub that consists of mostly brown sugar but also salt, chili powder, black pepper, cayenne pepper, chipotle seasoning, old bay, dried thyme, onion powder.

[Tarlam!]

MPF, never ever ever cut spuds if they're destined for a salad. Ever! Always cook them whole.

I like the idea of reds, hadn't thought of that before.

Speaking of rosmary, you guys should do bratpotatoes with rosmary.

It's easy as anything. Blanch some spuds whole with skin, skin 'em, slice 'em about 1/4 " thick. Fry 'em in some tastes like butter with chopped bacon. When they're half done, add some sprigs of rosemary. Just before they're done add some chopped onions. Be careful, the onions will turn black if you add them too early.

This is def- a high cholesterol side dish, but hey, we all gotta die, right?

[retailguy]

I know this is slightly thread jacking but.......i don't care! :)

I need a good rub for baby back ribs.

Here ya go! (Don't spend too much time on the website! You'll be as addicted as I am.) I've done his pulled pork using this rub about a half dozen times and it's psycho good. We freeze it in plastic bags and defrost, microwave for a few minutes, and voila - DINNER! :P

http://www.amazingribs.com/recipes/rubs_pastes_marinades_and_brines/meatheads_magic_dust.html

Memphis Dust Recipe
Yield. Makes about 3 cups. I typically use about 1 tablespoon per side of a slab of St. Louis cut ribs, and a bit less for baby backs. Store the extra in a zipper bag or a glass jar with a tight lid.
Preparation time. 10 minutes to find everything and 5 minutes to dump them together.

Ingredients
3/4 cup firmly packed dark brown sugar
3/4 cup white sugar
1/2 cup paprika
1/4 cup kosher salt
1/4 cup garlic powder
2 tablespoons ground black pepper
2 tablespoons ground ginger powder
2 tablespoons onion powder
2 teaspoons rosemary powder

Optional. Add up to 2 tablespoons crushed dried chipotle, cayenne, chili powder, or other hot pepper. Try substituting some smoked paprika for regular paprika. Beware, it is usually a bit hot. But be careful. Not everybody likes it as hot as you do! You can leave out the heat and serve hot pepper on the side.

About the sugar and salt. I encourage readers to experiment with recipes, and "no rules in the bedroom or dining room" is my motto, but I have gotten some emails that require a comment. One said he loved this recipe but left out the salt. Another left out the white sugar. I appreciate the need to reduce sugar and salt in our diets, but they are in the recipe for more than flavor enhancement, they help form the crust (a.k.a. called "the bark" by the pros), an important part of the texture of the surface of ribs and slow smoke roasted pork. The salt pulls some moisture to the surface to form a "pellicle" and the sugar mixes with the moisture, caramelizes, and also contributes to the crust. There's only about 2 tablespoons of rub to a large slab. Of that about 1 tablespoon is sugar, and 1/2 teaspoon of salt. If you eat half a slab, you're not eating much sugar and salt. I recommend you leave them in. And for those of you who object to white sugar for non-dietary reasons, and use brown sugar instead, you need to know brown sugar is just white sugar with molasses added. It is not unrefined sugar. I use brown sugar for the flavor and white sugar because it improves the bark. You can substitute table salt, but beware that if you do, you should use about 2/3 as much. Read my article on salt.

About the rosemary. Another hates rosemary and leaves it out. Trust me, it hides in the background and you will never know it is there. Substitute thyme or oregano if you must, but I think rosemary is the best choice. If you can find ground rosemary, good for you. It's hard to find. So just grind the rosemary leaves in a mortar and pestle or in a coffee grinder. It will take 2 to 3 tablespoons of leaves to make 2 teaspoons of powder.

About the ginger. I think it is a very important ingredient. If you don't have any, get some.

[Little Whiskey]

Thanks retail. I'll give that a go!

[Tarlam!]

As a chef, I really question putting salt into marinades or rubs. Salt drys moisture, you know, the huicy part of the meat. My gut tells me omit the salt.

[retailguy]

As a chef, I really question putting salt into marinades or rubs. Salt drys moisture, you know, the huicy part of the meat. My gut tells me omit the salt.

Understand what you're saying, and my mother told me the same thing. I've never "fast cooked" ribs with this recipe, though I don't see why it wouldn't work, but nothing I've cooked with the rub has been dry.

I cook the St. Louis ribs for about 6 hours at 225. The pork butts cook about 10 hours at 225 (8 to 10 lbs each), and I've cooked plenty of pork tenderloins at about 300 - 350 for about 40 mins to an hour. (All on my Weber Gas Grill).

Nothing has been at all dry. Quite the opposite actually. Juicy, flavorful and falling of the bone. So I keep using it as is.

[Tarlam!]

Never change a winning formula, RG! If it works for you, then go ahead with it. Forgive me if I omit the salt, though.

[Little Whiskey]

Forgive me if I omit the salt, though.

Wuss! :D

[3irty1]

Never change a winning formula, RG! If it works for you, then go ahead with it. Forgive me if I omit the salt, though.

On some things like Chinese style whole steamed fish I'd agree and wouldn't season until after it was cooked but there's nothing inappropriate about ribs rubbed with salt. A slight cure makes for a more even caramelization and more importantly seasons the pork!

[Tarlam!]

I agree that meat needs to be seasoned, but salt is added just before it hits the flame. Otherwise, the salt draws the moisture out of the flesh. Go back and read your history books on how people preserved meat before the reridgerator. They salted everything!

[Iron Mike]

I agree that meat needs to be seasoned, but salt is added just before it hits the flame. Otherwise, the salt draws the moisture out of the flesh. Go back and read your history books on how people preserved meat before the reridgerator. They salted everything!

Hell with that....get in the kitchen and start making me some Coquilles St. Jacques:

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emeril-lagasse/coquilles-st-jacques-recipe/index.html

[Little Whiskey]

Did you know that salt is mined underneath the great lakes?

[Tarlam!]

One of my favourite foods, Coquilles ST. Jacques, ever!


I once created a dish with these suckers.

Equal parts of shrimp, John Dory and Coquilles, finely diced (all). Make a bisque with the shrimp heads and shells, flavour with Pernod.

The roes of the Coquille seperated and wrpped in a blanched spinach cigar.
Then, work the seafood mixture with egg white a a bit of cream over ice to stoffen it up. Now, take about 4 sheets of filot pastrry, buttered and wrap in the stiffend mixture, with the spinach cigar in the middle. Twist both end so it looks like a fire cracker. Bake medium hot for about 30 mins.

Serve over the sauce "cracked" open, so you see the diffent layers.

A very impressive dish!

[3irty1]

I agree that meat needs to be seasoned, but salt is added just before it hits the flame. Otherwise, the salt draws the moisture out of the flesh. Go back and read your history books on how people preserved meat before the reridgerator. They salted everything!

Salting after the meat is already rubbed with gooey brown sugar is going to make it difficult to season.

Retail Guy is using a 6:2:1 ratio of sugar:paprika:salt, that's not at all the same as curing meat for preservation. The rub is probably only on there for an hour. It draws some moisture out of the flesh but so does the grill or smoker which are dry cooking methods, but we'd all agree that those are appropriate for ribs, especially if you're saucing your ribs in which case you'd like surface that sauce will stick too.

I'm confident in saying that if salt in a rib rub is wrong, then the vast majority of Americans, including professionals, do it wrong.

[Tarlam!]

I'm not a wuss, I just know how to cook. You never ever ever add salt until just before cooking. It sucks up moisture i.e. flavour. It dries. That was it's job before refrigerators.

It's that simple.

It DOES need to be added BEFORE cooking, otherwise you need 5 times the amount to get the right seasoning. But it has about as much to do with a marinade as beer does with bratwurst.

[mraynrand]

reridgerator.

Roh Ray, Rastro!

http://www.comicbooktidbits.com/Jetsons1_files/image012.jpg

[Scott Campbell]

The ladies seem to love my sausage.

[Patler]

In my opinion (which is all cooking is anyway, the cook's opinion!) a good rub should be on ribs for a lengthy time (overnight) to get good penetration and should contain little to no salt. Herbs and spices only. A light (just a pinch or two) of turbinado (unrefined) sugar sprinkled on the meat before the rub will bring a bit of moisture to the surface without drying the meat and will "activate" the rub a little faster. Turbinado sugar is preferred because of its higher flashpoint (less charring) and better flavor.

Americans love the taste of salt, which is why proteins are heavily salted in typical American recipes. I was guilty of it myself at one point, but now I never salt meat until just before preparing it, and for something like ribs, pulled pork, etc. I add no salt at all, just rubs. Although I'm sure some of the commercial rubs I use do have some salt in them.

[Tarlam!]

So, if you guys don't believe me, believe Pattler. Never ever use salt in a dry rub or marinade. EVER!

[3irty1]

So, if you guys don't believe me, believe Pattler. Never ever use salt in a dry rub or marinade. EVER!

Tarlam, I'm sorry but this is just bad advice. An 8:3:1:1 is a textbook ratio for pork cooked at low temperature, the three being salt. Curing the surface slightly of the meat so a crust (called "bark" forms). When barbecuing pork shoulder to make pulled pork, the bark is called "Mr. Brown," and the interior meat is called, "Miss White." These are well known techniques that are used everywhere by professionals that directly conflict with your advice.

Patler, using a rub as a marinade, leaving it overnight does very little as the most penetration a seasoning will get without any osmosis is 1/4". Every pro I've ever worked with leaves it for about an hour tops.

[Patler]

So, if you guys don't believe me, believe Pattler. Never ever use salt in a dry rub or marinade. EVER!

Tarlam, I'm sorry but this is just bad advice. An 8:3:1:1 is a textbook ratio for pork cooked at low temperature, the three being salt. Curing the surface slightly of the meat so a crust (called "bark" forms). When barbecuing pork shoulder to make pulled pork, the bark is called "Mr. Brown," and the interior meat is called, "Miss White." These are well known techniques that are used everywhere by professionals that directly conflict with your advice.

Patler, using a rub as a marinade, leaving it overnight does very little as the most penetration a seasoning will get without any osmosis is 1/4". Every pro I've ever worked with leaves it for about an hour tops.

Salt is completely unnecessary to form bark. I never have a problem getting a nice crust. Heck, you can develop a smoky bark without a rub, depending on how you use a mop sauce. My pulled pork and rib technique came directly from a Midwest barbeque champ too, who has been a pro chef specializing in grilled foods for 30 years, and he got it from a guy who has several very popular books out. He always puts his rub on the night before, and yes it does make a difference, because I have used both long and short residence times. The turbinado sugar helps because it brings moisture to the surface but will go back in taking flavor with it.

BUT, as I said - cooking is really all just opinion. You have yours and I have mine. Yours works for you, mine works for me, and I bet if we each made ours on a good day, a crowd would like both. And it is even worse in grilling than in other preparations. Heck, people can't even agree if ribs should be wet or dry, and if wet, sauced on the grill or after. They are all different and all good.

As I said, just my opinion.

[Patler]

So, if you guys don't believe me, believe Pattler. Never ever use salt in a dry rub or marinade. EVER!

Tarlam, I'm sorry but this is just bad advice. An 8:3:1:1 is a textbook ratio for pork cooked at low temperature, the three being salt. Curing the surface slightly of the meat so a crust (called "bark" forms). When barbecuing pork shoulder to make pulled pork, the bark is called "Mr. Brown," and the interior meat is called, "Miss White." These are well known techniques that are used everywhere by professionals that directly conflict with your advice.

Patler, using a rub as a marinade, leaving it overnight does very little as the most penetration a seasoning will get without any osmosis is 1/4". Every pro I've ever worked with leaves it for about an hour tops.

You know, I got to thinking this through, and there are two differences in our rub thoughts and the combination explains why yours works for you and mine works for me.

You rub using a lot of salt and cook soon. Salt is not going to dry your meat in such a short time. I prepare and rub the night before using little to no salt. With my rubs, it does make a difference if you let it sit for an hour, or eight. I know that to be true, because I have done it both ways.

Now if I had a lot of salt in my rub, like yours, leaving it on longer would do little, because the salt would dry out the surface, skinning it over and getting no further benefit. In fact, with a lot of rub, it would probably dry out the meat more than either of us would want.

That's why yours works for you, and mine works for me. We each use a rub best suited to the way we use it.

[3irty1]

So, if you guys don't believe me, believe Pattler. Never ever use salt in a dry rub or marinade. EVER!

Tarlam, I'm sorry but this is just bad advice. An 8:3:1:1 is a textbook ratio for pork cooked at low temperature, the three being salt. Curing the surface slightly of the meat so a crust (called "bark" forms). When barbecuing pork shoulder to make pulled pork, the bark is called "Mr. Brown," and the interior meat is called, "Miss White." These are well known techniques that are used everywhere by professionals that directly conflict with your advice.

Patler, using a rub as a marinade, leaving it overnight does very little as the most penetration a seasoning will get without any osmosis is 1/4". Every pro I've ever worked with leaves it for about an hour tops.

Salt is completely unnecessary to form bark. I never have a problem getting a nice crust. Heck, you can develop a smoky bark without a rub, depending on how you use a mop sauce. My pulled pork and rib technique came directly from a Midwest barbeque champ too, who has been a pro chef specializing in grilled foods for 30 years, and he got it from a guy who has several very popular books out. He always puts his rub on the night before, and yes it does make a difference, because I have used both long and short residence times. The turbinado sugar helps because it brings moisture to the surface but will go back in taking flavor with it.

BUT, as I said - cooking is really all just opinion. You have yours and I have mine. Yours works for you, mine works for me, and I bet if we each made ours on a good day, a crowd would like both. And it is even worse in grilling than in other preparations. Heck, people can't even agree if ribs should be wet or dry, and if wet, sauced on the grill or after. They are all different and all good.

As I said, just my opinion.

If you don't mind sharing secrets, PM me your technique and maybe I'll learn something. I'm not advocating any single way to do anything. As you say, its largely opinion a BBQ is a funky art. I simply disagree with the idea that salt should "never ever" be used in a dry rub and that people do it enough to have terminology for it.

[Tarlam!]

Look, it's just a fact of life that salt was once used to preserve meats, fish etc. Why? Because it absorbs moisture.

Salt, therefore, should ever be added until just prior to cooking. It's one of the first things we learn at chef school. Salt drys. Period.

[3irty1]

Look, it's just a fact of life that salt was once used to preserve meats, fish etc. Why? Because it absorbs moisture.

Salt, therefore, should ever be added until just prior to cooking. It's one of the first things we learn at chef school. Salt drys. Period.

You keep saying that salt was once used to preserve food as if that's making your case in some way. Yes salt was used to preserve food--food that people then ate because you're wrong and it wasn't ruined. People also used to preserve food by making confit which is still popular at least in haute cuisine.

Also to preserve something by salt curing it takes much much much more than is contained in the 8:3:1;1 proposed rib rub above. This is not the same. Yes salt draws the moisture out of food. In many scenarios this is desirable and thus you should "never ever" say "never ever." I'm also a trained cook and although they no doubt taught you the properties of salt, I'm skeptical that they taught you your broad statement earlier that you should never ever use salt in a rub. That advice conflicts with so much as I've stated before.

[Tarlam!]

Curing, say ham, is a totally different animal than dry brubbing ribs. Do you put salt in a coq au vin marinade? NO! Salt dries. It's just a fact of life.

[Joemailman]

Sounds like we need to have a Posters Game next year. You guys can have a cookoff before the game.

[SkinBasket]

Sounds like we need to have a Posters Game next year. You guys can have a cookoff before the game.

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Food Battle: Salt! Begin!

[3irty1]

Curing, say ham, is a totally different animal than dry brubbing ribs. Do you put salt in a coq au vin marinade? NO! Salt dries. It's just a fact of life.

Coq Au Vin is made with a tough old rooster and the purpose of the wine marinade is to break down the old meat with the acid in the wine. Since the purpose of that marinade isn't to season you are right, I would omit the salt. If I wasn't using a rooster then I wouldn't marinade anything Julia Child style. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't EVER put salt in a marinade/rub. A brine is a marinade and by definition is loaded with salt. More importantly salt is completely appropriate in a rib rub.

[retailguy]

This thread inspired me to put another 20lbs of pork butt on the grill. I seasoned it up last night, wrapped it in plastic, and put it in the fridge overnight.

This morning, bright and early, I got up and got the meat on the grill with some hickory chips at 7:15am at 225.... I have buns all ready to go, buttered and ready for toasting.

I did not leave out the salt, and the meat will not be dry.

My biggest worry? Whether to use my homemade Kansas City red bbq sauce, my Carolina mustard/vinegar based bbq sauce, or to eat 'em nekkid....

Damn it's gonna be good.... 10 hours on the grill, about an hour to go...

CAN'T WAIT!!!

[Little Whiskey]

Coq Au Vin is made with a tough old rooster

could you also say it is made with a tough old cock? if thats the case, you can keep your coq au vin or what ever the hell you call it! sounds to me like it could use some salt :lol:

[Little Whiskey]

I'm using retail's stolen bbq rub tonight on some ribs. they've been on the grill since about 1:30 this afternoon. Its about 6:30 now. they've still got more to go. I'll let you know how they are. Thank God the pack play monday night.

[mraynrand]

This thread inspired me to put another 20lbs of pork butt on the grill.

Get your ass off the grill!

[Little Whiskey]

just finished my ribs. I was a hero! they are still singing my praises. I think songs and legends are going to be written about me.

FYI Tar, even cooking these ribs for 6hrs and using the directed amount of salt they were not dry at all! the other ingredients must help to lock in the moisture. DAMN these were good ribs!

[retailguy]

This thread inspired me to put another 20lbs of pork butt on the grill.

Get your ass off the grill!

Unfortunately, (and those that met me can verify this), my pork butt is a hell of a lot bigger than 20 lbs. :(

On a good note the pulled pork was fantastic, and I have six gallon bags full of it frozen, for the next month!

[mraynrand]

This thread inspired me to put another 20lbs of pork butt on the grill.

Get your ass off the grill!

Unfortunately, (and those that met me can verify this), my pork butt is a hell of a lot bigger than 20 lbs. :(

On a good note the pulled pork was fantastic, and I have six gallon bags full of it frozen, for the next month!


MMMMmmmmmm. six gallons of pooooorrrrrrk.


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