Donald Driver...Special?

[Smidgeon]

I'll probably get a lot of shrapnel here for this. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm about to get torn into, but I feel like it's at least worth talking about. So here goes: I don't get all the "Donald Driver deserves more than the Packer's HOF" talk. Don't get me wrong--I really like Donald Driver and think he has the best first three steps out of any player in the NFL--but I don't think he's special as a football player.

He's reliable and consistent. That he has going for him. I'm sure you've all heard this stat: Donald Driver and Reggie Wayne are the only active receivers to have 1000 yard in the last six seasons. Consistency and reliability go a long way, but they shouldn't be the only reasons someone gets honored.

He's never been a dominant receiver. He also hasn't even consistently been the best receiver on his own team. Since claiming one of the starting positions in 2002, he's been the second receiver on the team five of those eight years (two to Javon Walker and three to Greg Jennings).

Let's compare that to two other (relatively recent) receivers, both post '83 rule changes: Freeman and Sharpe. (Stats from Pro-Football reference, includeds TEs in rankings.)

Sterling Sharpe was a starter every single season in Green Bay (7 seasons) and led the Packers in receptions, yards, and touchdowns in six straight years (he only had one TD reception his rookie year). He led the league in yardage in '92, in TDs in '92 and '94, and in receptions in '89, '92, and '93. He led all three categories in '92, a feat I'm sure hasn't been done often since the rule changes of '83. He was Top 5 in those categories four times each. He also had ten or more TDs four times.

Antonio Freeman was a starter in six of his eight years in Green Bay and led the Packers in receptions, yards, and touchdowns in three of those years (yardage leader in four years, TD leader in four, reception leader in four). He led the league in yardage in '98. He was Top 5 in yardage once, Top 5 in TDs twice, and Top 5 in receptions once. He also had ten or more TDs twice.

Donald Driver has been a starter in eight of his eleven years in Green Bay (through 2009) and has led the Packers in receptions, yards, and touchdowns in three of those years (yardage leader in four seasons, TD leader in four, reception leader in six). He never led the league in one of those categories but was in the Top 5 in each of the categories once. In the NFL's premier passing era, he has never hit a 10 TD year.

There's no doubt he's one of the Top 4 wide receivers (Lofton, Sharpe, Freeman, Driver) in Green Bay's history in the last 50 years (well, 30 years for sure) in my opinion. But a "special place for Driver"? I don't see it. Not if there isn't one already for Sharpe and Freeman.

Freeman led the team in yards and touchdowns in the superbowl season and in all three categories the year they lost to Denver. As of the end of 2009, he had eight more GB TDs in two less seasons and two hundred fewer receptions as a starter in GB.

Sharpe was the most dominant receiver Green Bay had since at least Lofton and maybe Hutson (I've read some pretty good debates about that here). He consistently was one of the Top 5 receivers in the league for six years ('89-'94), and only his single TD in his rookie year kept him from being in that category all seven years in the league. You could argue that his stats came because he was the safety valve of a tunnel-visioned young QB, but he still made the catches, still racked up the yardage, and still scored the TDs--even when defenses knew he'd get the ball all the time.

Driver is a great Green Bay Packer, but he's not NFL HOF calibur. His longevity has already passed Lofton's in a Packer uniform (and will tie him at the end of the year with nine seasons as a starter) at WR. He's a model citizen and has always been a team player (I mean that in the best way possible). But is he worthy of more than just the Packer's HOF? I don't know. If anything, I think the Packer's HOF has been too lenient, admitting some players because of fan name recognition only.

His dependability, reliability, and character speak volumes about who he is as a Packer. Maybe the Packer HOF can add a new section for those who have been dependable, reliable, productive, have high character, are fan favorites, and embody what a Green Bay player should be. We'll call it the Henderson-Driver Distinction. Nominations for inaugural inductions?

[Freak Out]

I have just issued a Fatwa against you Smidgeon. Better get used to hanging with Rushdie. :lol:

[MichiganPackerFan]

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h97/pokeystockman/monty_python_witch-701441.jpg

(even though you're right)

[Cheesehead Craig]

He'll definately go into the Packer HOF. While I love the guy and the work ethic, I do agree with you that I don't feel he's a NFL HOF guy. It's not a slight on him at all, it's just acknowledging that it's a pretty high standard to get in there. If Art Monk can have the problems he did, what real chance does Driver have?

[steve823]

I think when it comes to Driver..he's a guy you just gotta love. I mean his story of how he got to where he is, is just incredible. Not to mention his great work ethic and personality...he is what the NFL should be. Unfortunately, the NFL doesn't have many role models like him anymore. You hear more about people getting DUI's, going to jail, or some criminal act.

Now I agree with you that he's not an elite receiver - but he has been very consistent. BUT I think he is elite at YAC... he isone of/ if the not best YAC wide receivers in the league.

[mraynrand]

Maybe the Packer HOF can add a new section for those who have been dependable, reliable, productive, have high character, are fan favorites, and embody what a Green Bay player should be. We'll call it the Henderson-Driver Distinction. Nominations for inaugural inductions?

Ken Ruettgers

[Freak Out]

Driver is a special player....everything you could ask for in a NFL professional.....but the NFL hall of fame is a tough sell at this time. Rodgers climb could change things though.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Longevity and availability are two important ingredients when judging a player's career.

No, he's not Pro Football Hall of Fame worthy, but he's better than Freeman.

[mraynrand]

They showed a stat in the preseason game against the COLTs that had Drivers numbers second only to Wayne over the same stretch of what? 6-7 years. There's something missing in Driver's resume compared to other top WRs. What could it be.

[Joemailman]

Anybody see Smidgeon's Car? Oh, there it is.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44261000/jpg/_44261614_car416afp.jpg

[vince]

Driver will likely own all the Packer receiving records by the time he's done. I agree that he's a reliable receiver that is not at the very top of the list in terms of his sheer football abilities.

But I'm one guy that thinks personal character is something that matters too, particularly when you see some of the self-absorbed low-lifes that go through this league. If there were a hall of fame for working unbelievably hard to overcome serious adversity in life, and then giving back selflessly of his time and money to those less fortunate, Donald Driver makes that Ring of Honor in any league for all-time.

That was the point I was trying to make Smidge. If you follow his career, there is story after story after story about how Donald Driver has made a positive impact in someone's life by showing him/her that he believes in them, that he has the time to give them, and that he can help make a small difference in people's lives. It's clear that means a lot to him, perhaps because he can relate in a lot of ways to those who don't have the same luxuries that most of us have.

I agree with you on his football abilities. He's an overachiever that has gotten to where he is through his unbelievable work ethic and character. And he hasn't forgotten his roots. It's all that which sets him apart from just about all of the rest of them in my eyes.

When events like 9-11 happen, we are all reminded that football really isn't all that important in the grand scheme. When a four-year old kid is stricken with Hodgkin's Disease, that reminder is limited to his or her family and closest friends. The rest of us go on with our lives none-the-worse.

Donald Driver makes time for those people every week of the year. Most of it goes relatively unnoticed. He gives the most important thing to them, his time and attention.

That doesn't get him in the NFL Hall of Fame, nor should it, but it puts him above the great majority of the Packer Hall of Fame members in my eyes. There should be a special place in history for such tremendous characters to be honored. When it's all said and done, that's what really counts.

Donald Driver is indeed a special player - very special.

[HowardRoark]

There's something missing in Driver's resume compared to other top WRs. What could it be.

DWI? Manslaughter?

[MJZiggy]

There's something missing in Driver's resume compared to other top WRs. What could it be.

DWI? Manslaughter?I was thinking fumbles, but that could be it too.

[Scott Campbell]

Love Driver, but he's not going to Canton.

[CaptainKickass]

You must've missed this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCcvKloTiik

http://www.reverbnation.com/dosguyz

:lol:

[Scott Campbell]

Sharpe was the most dominant receiver Green Bay had since at least Lofton and maybe Hutson (I've read some pretty good debates about that here). He consistently was one of the Top 5 receivers in the league for six years ('89-'94), and only his single TD in his rookie year kept him from being in that category all seven years in the league. You could argue that his stats came because he was the safety valve of a tunnel-visioned young QB, but he still made the catches, still racked up the yardage, and still scored the TDs--even when defenses knew he'd get the ball all the time.


Finley could end up doing that. He looks unstoppable.

[Brandon494]

A championship or two could easily change that. :D

[Lurker64]

If we build a "Hall of Very Good" in Canton, Driver will certainly be in there. It's a joy to watch him work the middle, his initial steps are great, and he's as classy a guy as there is in professional football, but I don't think that's going to earn him much more than the Packers HOF and the undying affection of the green and gold faithful.

[Gunakor]

If he makes the NFL HOF, great. I don't know if he's gonna make it. He's on the fringe right now, but if he plays a few more years and makes an impact in a few postseasons, who knows.

My bottom line is simple. Compared to other Packer WR's, there are only 2 IMO in the history of the franchise that I'd take over Driver. As a football player. As a person, I'm not sure there's 2 others in the history of the league that have played for any team I'd take over Driver. Classiest guy you'll ever meet in 100 lifetimes.

He deserves special recognition in Green Bay for his accomplishments. Maybe he's not a special player on any other team, but damnit he's most certainly, absolutely a special player here. It's here, and here alone, that he absolutely must be remembered as such.

[mraynrand]

"A DEFENSE OF DRIVER HATE/LOVE BY AMERICAN AND CANADIAN FOOTBALLERS

We, the undersigned, unconditionally condemn any intimidation or threats of violence directed against any individual or group exercising the rights of loving or hating Donald Driver; even when such love/hate may be perceived as hurtful or reprehensible.

We are concerned and saddened by the recent wave of vitriolic anti-Driver and anti-Driver-in-Hall-of-Fame (or pro-Driver, pro-Driver-in-Hall-of-Fame) speculation sentiment that is being expressed across Packerrats.

We are even more concerned and saddened by threats that have been made against individual writers, cartoonists, and others by a minority of Football fans. We see these as a greater offense against Driver love/hate than any cartoon, Program burning, or other speech could ever be deemed.

We affirm the right of free speech for Smidgeon and all others loving or not loving Donald Driver, including ourselves.

As Footballers, we must set an example of justice, patience, tolerance, respect, and forgiveness."


Signed,

MrAynRand. ****


****Please add your name to the list. Support Smidgeon's Free 'Love/Hate-Driver' rights before it is too late. "First they came for those who loved/hated Donald Driver, and you did nothing....."

[mraynrand]

Next year, instead of riding kids' bikes, I think Donald should get to ride on a short bus:

http://thecannabistales.com/images/shortbus2.png
After all, he is special!

[Smidgeon]

Anybody see Smidgeon's Car? Oh, there it is.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44261000/jpg/_44261614_car416afp.jpg

Not mine. Not enough rust.

[Tarlam!]

Driver is special, but despite my admiration and affection for the guy, no way does he make the PHOF or get his # retired.

He's th epitome of how I like Packers to be. That smile of his is infectious. His charity work is legendary. I adore the guy.

I would love to see him make the PHOF. But as others have pointed out, he hasn't been the #1 receiver on the Packers. It aint happening.

[LEWCWA]

Driver is a stud, but not a hof player. He has not transended his position, he has never done anything of note in the post season. Then again I don't think Irvin was a hof player either or Monk for that matter. I think it might be getting a little too easy to make the Hall!

[LEWCWA]

Driver is special, but despite my admiration and affection for the guy, no way does he make the PHOF or get his # retired.

He's th epitome of how I like Packers to be. That smile of his is infectious. His charity work is legendary. I adore the guy.

I would love to see him make the PHOF. But as others have pointed out, he hasn't been the #1 receiver on the Packers. It aint happening.

Dude he is a shoe in for the packer hall, thats not even a question. He will retire with over 10,000 yards and over 700 catches.

[Tarlam!]

My mistake. I meant Pro HOF, not Packer HOF. I'll be more careful next time.

[LEWCWA]

My mistake. I meant Pro HOF, not Packer HOF. I'll be more careful next time.

No sir my mistake I just didn't understand your shorthand!!! My apologies!

[packerbacker1234]

I think the biggest reason he wont make the hall is the biggest reason he should: His unselfishness as a player. Often times, WR's are divas. If you look at the current in the hall, many of them were either the ONLY legititate wr threat on the team through most of their careers, or they were "get me the ball I make plays" type of person.

Driver has never been that kind of player, and he and STILL produced.

Drive is possibly the best YAC WR to ever play the game. Read that again "possibly the best at something involving wr's to ever play the game". That alone is HOF worthy.

Oh, and did someone forget to mention how Driver has, and can, make the same sort of plays all those big name WR's do make? How many one handed guys draping all over him catches does he need to make? How many times must he go over the middle, knowing he is going tgo get lit up, and still holds onto the ball? How many times has he caught it in double coverage?

Driver CAN make the same plays the big names make - he's proven it. The thing he doesn't do is "demand the football goes his way". If he was like that, chances are he is close to 100 catches every year. Instead, he lets his teammates do there thing, and when the time comes, driver is just sneaky good. You forget about him for just a moment - next thing you know he makes a highlight reel catch.

If we just compare it straight up to those in the hall...

He will:

1. Have the statistics (barring injury) that are the same level as a majority of the HOF's - catches, yards, and TDs.

2. Have one key statistic he holds over most the rest - YAC.

3. While who he is as a person isn't overly relevant for the HoF, it can't hurt either. The fact he is alright not being the guy, even though he is fully capable of always being the guy, is a reason he should get in. Despite not "being hte guy" - what do all those others that have come in to "be the guy" shown? That they aren't the guy.

Consisetency goes a long way. Driver has always been our #1 - but none of the other #1's who supplanted him lasted in this league as a star, save the exception of jennings.

Even with Jennings, I think you'll be surprised how even the splits are.

2008

Jennings - 80 catches, 1292 yards, 9tds (his breakout year)
Driver - 74 catches, 1012 yards, 5tds

Almost even in the looks they got, as you can see with roughly the same amount of catches. Jennings made more plays down the field - which ultimately lead to his higher yards and td's. Driver caught significantly more 1st downs, however, being the target of choice when you needed to move the chains.

2009

Jennings - 68 catches, 1113 yards, 4 tds
Driver - 70 catches, 1061 yards, 6 tds


Pretty debatable JUST LAST SEASON who our #1 was. Again, very even splits, and both made there share of highlight reel catches and big plays during the season.


Someone also mentioned that walker supplanted him for 2 seasons - wrong, he had one dominant year, got hurt the first game the following season - and essentially you guys know the rest. Horrible character AND horrible player on the field.

Since 2003, he has one just one season without at least 70 catches and a 1000 yards. The season he didn't, his incumbant was... Walker... who we all known wanted the ball on every single play. Thats the numbers driver could have every year if he was the same way.


But he's not. THat is why I think he deserves the hall. He has the numbers, he has the remarkable consistency with numbers over the years, he has only ever been supplanted as the #1 guy really one time in his career (as I just showed, the splits are dead even with Jennings - showing it isn't exactly clear that Jennings is the true #1, even if he is listed.


Driver also has the advantage this season so far.

9 Catches in two games for 68 yards and and 2tds.

Jenning has 2 catches for 8 yards and 1td.


That tells me that Driver is still getting more open than the rest of the WR's around him, and is still considered the first read on a majority of plays intended for anyone other than Finley. Point being, it's debatable on if Driver is the #1 right now - and there is a strong case so far this season for it.


He is as good as almost every WR I have seen play except Sharpe. He can do what most the other wr's do - he just doesn't demand he gets the ball every snap.

[Smidgeon]

Someone also mentioned that walker supplanted him for 2 seasons - wrong, he had one dominant year, got hurt the first game the following season - and essentially you guys know the rest. Horrible character AND horrible player on the field.

Since 2003, he has one just one season without at least 70 catches and a 1000 yards. The season he didn't, his incumbant was... Walker... who we all known wanted the ball on every single play. Thats the numbers driver could have every year if he was the same way.

Go back and look at the stats for those two years. Walker had more TDS and yards than Driver in both of those years (and in at least one of them had more receptions).

And you can't tell me being a diva WR has much to do with long term effectiveness. With the QBs GB has had, they get the ball to the open receivers. Walker was the best jump ball WR GB has had in a long time.

As for "incumbent", Driver was the incumbent. Walker was drafted in the first round of 2002, Driver's fourth year in the league. Walker was the young guy coming in who played better in 2003 and 2004. We didn't know Walker had the diva tendencies until he held out. I, for one, was really surprised when that happened. None of it since has surprised me though.

[Tony Oday]

DD makes the hall with three more DD years and one Pack Superbowl.

[Smidgeon]

Drive is possibly the best YAC WR to ever play the game. Read that again "possibly the best at something involving wr's to ever play the game". That alone is HOF worthy.

...

If we just compare it straight up to those in the hall...

He will:

2. Have one key statistic he holds over most the rest - YAC.

Prove it. Show me something to back that up. Otherwise your entire reason for wanting Driver in the HOF is nothing but speculative drivel, and it is probably inaccurate. He's good at YAC, but best ever? C'mon.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Sterling Sharpe was better after the catch. Jerry Rice also.

[Smidgeon]

Sterling Sharpe was better after the catch. Jerry Rice also.

I wouldn't be surprised if Lofton was too, I didn't see him play, so I can only speculate based on the enormous yardage he got year after year.

[Waldo]

Packers HOF? Yes. Pro football HOF? Absolutely not.

There are a number of "tests" that each player must pass in order to make it (Peter King (a HOF voter) has talked at length about this).

The longevity test - HOF players played at a high level for a long time. Few players that retire before their mid 30's have a chance. Playing well beyind when their peers do is a sign of greateness. Driver passes this test.

The best test - To make the Hall a player must have been considered the best at their position for a period of their career. Since the Hall voters are also part of the MVP, DPOY, OPOY, and All-Pro voters, they look to these accolades first when making best assessments. Hall players typically earned multiple first team All-Pro accolades during their career, and earning MVP, DPOY, and/or OPOY honors at least once significantly improves their chances. Driver fails this test, having never earned a league-wide accolade above making the pro-bowl in his career.

The stats test - A player must have career statisics that places them high in the record books at the end of their career. Don is #40 on the career reception list, with about 650 (several active players ahead of him). He'll need to get to about 1,000 before he retires before that # becomes hall worthy. He's #42 on the career yards at about 9100. He'll need to get into the 13,000 area for that # to be hall worthy (lots of active players ahead of him). He's #92 on the career TD list with 51. He's very low in that stat. He'll need to hit at least 90 for his career to be hall worthy. There are a lot of active WR's with more career TD's than Don. Don fails the stats test.

The single season stats test - This goes back to and relates to the best test, but record setting seasons, and season's leading the league in a key stat significantly improve a players chances. This is hand in hand with the best test, almost always a player will earn the accolades that go with being considered the best if they put up the stats in a single season that prove they are the best. Driver fails this test.

The winner test - Hall voters clearly prefer players that won Superbowls. They seem to be very concious of how many players per superbowl team they have in the hall, and make efforts to correct deficiencies, or hold guys back so they don't have too many. For players that weren't on Superbowl teams, everything else has to shine relative to the guys that won them. If a guy was not a key component on a superbowl team, his chances clearly decline. This is really going to hurt Don's chances, thus far he hasn't been on a superbowl winning team, and if we do win it hurts him just as much since guys like Rodgers, Woodson, Matthews (?), and Finley (?) (possibly Collins too) would get hall looks before him, he likely would run into the too many HOF players on a SB team problem before he got in.

The big play test - This is less of a necessity, but it can provide a significant boost. If a player is known for a single play of greatness, it will signficantly improve their chances, especially if that play occurred on a big spot (even though the outcome was not in his favor, Woodson does have the tuck rule play going for him in this test, not as big of a boost as say James Harrison's pick 6 in the superbowl, but it will help him). Don has made a lot of nice plays, but he hasn't made one special memorable play in a big spot. The last Packer WR to make a single play that would help their HOF chances was Freeman's long TD catch in the Superbowl.

Don has a long way to go, and at his age it is very doubtful he'd get there. He basically would have to be the best WR in the league for a couple years here at the tail end of his career to give him a shot.

When you look at the guys that played the majority of their career in the 00's, Driver's peers, I think that Owens, Moss, Bruce, and Harrison are the ones that have a shot, each will get looks long before Don, outperforming him in every signle one of these tests.

[MichiganPackerFan]

WOO HOO!!!! A Waldo sighting!!!

Thanks for the rundown!

[Pugger]

They showed a stat in the preseason game against the COLTs that had Drivers numbers second only to Wayne over the same stretch of what? 6-7 years. There's something missing in Driver's resume compared to other top WRs. What could it be.

A ring?

[mraynrand]

They showed a stat in the preseason game against the COLTs that had Drivers numbers second only to Wayne over the same stretch of what? 6-7 years. There's something missing in Driver's resume compared to other top WRs. What could it be.

A ring?

Yeah, that's it. Look at Waldo's post. Driver can't get to those great stat numbers that other receivers have, so the only thing that could get him in would be a series of memorable plays on the way to and in at least one winning Superbowl.

As to Waldo's point about too many guys from one team making the HOF from one Superbowl team, just look at the '96 team - How many of those guys will make the hall who didn't play significant amounts of their careers elsewhere. White, Favre and then? Keith Jackson (pretty much a cup of coffee in GB), Outside chances for Jones (Houston), maybe Butler (stats? memorable Superbowl sack?), maybe even Sharper (didn't start until '97 so missed the '96 ring, Longevity, Superbowl with N.O., some stats), Craig Hentirch (LOL). And those four/five were much better relative to their positions than Driver...

[Fritz]

There's Waldo!

Great to see you back!

Say, can you give the link to your page?

[Smidgeon]

WOO HOO!!!! A Waldo sighting!!!

Thanks for the rundown!

+1

[Airin' Rodgers]

I think the biggest reason he wont make the hall is the biggest reason he should: His unselfishness as a player. Often times, WR's are divas. If you look at the current in the hall, many of them were either the ONLY legititate wr threat on the team through most of their careers, or they were "get me the ball I make plays" type of person.

Driver has never been that kind of player, and he and STILL produced.

Drive is possibly the best YAC WR to ever play the game. Read that again "possibly the best at something involving wr's to ever play the game". That alone is HOF worthy.

Oh, and did someone forget to mention how Driver has, and can, make the same sort of plays all those big name WR's do make? How many one handed guys draping all over him catches does he need to make? How many times must he go over the middle, knowing he is going tgo get lit up, and still holds onto the ball? How many times has he caught it in double coverage?

Driver CAN make the same plays the big names make - he's proven it. The thing he doesn't do is "demand the football goes his way". If he was like that, chances are he is close to 100 catches every year. Instead, he lets his teammates do there thing, and when the time comes, driver is just sneaky good. You forget about him for just a moment - next thing you know he makes a highlight reel catch.

If we just compare it straight up to those in the hall...

He will:

1. Have the statistics (barring injury) that are the same level as a majority of the HOF's - catches, yards, and TDs.

2. Have one key statistic he holds over most the rest - YAC.

3. While who he is as a person isn't overly relevant for the HoF, it can't hurt either. The fact he is alright not being the guy, even though he is fully capable of always being the guy, is a reason he should get in. Despite not "being hte guy" - what do all those others that have come in to "be the guy" shown? That they aren't the guy.

Consisetency goes a long way. Driver has always been our #1 - but none of the other #1's who supplanted him lasted in this league as a star, save the exception of jennings.

Even with Jennings, I think you'll be surprised how even the splits are.

2008

Jennings - 80 catches, 1292 yards, 9tds (his breakout year)
Driver - 74 catches, 1012 yards, 5tds

Almost even in the looks they got, as you can see with roughly the same amount of catches. Jennings made more plays down the field - which ultimately lead to his higher yards and td's. Driver caught significantly more 1st downs, however, being the target of choice when you needed to move the chains.

2009

Jennings - 68 catches, 1113 yards, 4 tds
Driver - 70 catches, 1061 yards, 6 tds


Pretty debatable JUST LAST SEASON who our #1 was. Again, very even splits, and both made there share of highlight reel catches and big plays during the season.


Someone also mentioned that walker supplanted him for 2 seasons - wrong, he had one dominant year, got hurt the first game the following season - and essentially you guys know the rest. Horrible character AND horrible player on the field.

Since 2003, he has one just one season without at least 70 catches and a 1000 yards. The season he didn't, his incumbant was... Walker... who we all known wanted the ball on every single play. Thats the numbers driver could have every year if he was the same way.


But he's not. THat is why I think he deserves the hall. He has the numbers, he has the remarkable consistency with numbers over the years, he has only ever been supplanted as the #1 guy really one time in his career (as I just showed, the splits are dead even with Jennings - showing it isn't exactly clear that Jennings is the true #1, even if he is listed.


Driver also has the advantage this season so far.

9 Catches in two games for 68 yards and and 2tds.

Jenning has 2 catches for 8 yards and 1td.


That tells me that Driver is still getting more open than the rest of the WR's around him, and is still considered the first read on a majority of plays intended for anyone other than Finley. Point being, it's debatable on if Driver is the #1 right now - and there is a strong case so far this season for it.


He is as good as almost every WR I have seen play except Sharpe. He can do what most the other wr's do - he just doesn't demand he gets the ball every snap.

Good post overall. I agree with most of the points. However, Jennings has 118 yards... Not 8

[swede]

If you wanted to get Gureski to post you had to say something good about Craig Nall.

Apparently the number for Waldo's Batphone is pushing Donald Driver for the NFL Hall of Fame!

Keep in mind, I don't think that DD qualifies NOW, I think it would be interesting if DD performs like DD does for another five years. Is it likely that DD gets 60 receptions, 800 yards, and 5 TDs a year for the next five years? No. Is such a thing possible? Yes.

[Waldo]

Keep in mind, I don't think that DD qualifies NOW, I think it would be interesting if DD performs like DD does for another five years. Is it likely that DD gets 60 receptions, 800 yards, and 5 TDs a year for the next five years? No. Is such a thing possible? Yes.

But he would still fail the best test miserably and have no shot.

[Lurker64]

If Driver won a superbowl MVP, do you think that would get him in?

[Waldo]

If Driver won a superbowl MVP, do you think that would get him in?

No.

Driver needs some first team all-pro's on his resume to have a shot.

Being superbowl MVP would just cut down on the # that he needs.

[sharpe1027]

HoF is too much of a popularity contest. Micheal Irvin gets in before Art Monk? Please. I wish they had a more definitive guideline (maybe something like Waldo suggests), but they don't.

[Waldo]

HoF is too much of a popularity contest. Micheal Irvin gets in before Art Monk? Please. I wish they had a more definitive guideline (maybe something like Waldo suggests), but they don't.

Monk and Irvin are very similar. Both were 3x Superbowl champs. Neither was the first inducted from their team. Both had 1x first team all-pro. Both only ever led the league in a single stat category once, receptions for Monk and Yards for Irvin. Monk played a good bit longer, Irvin had a higher yd/gm and td/gm average. Monk had a higher Rec/gm average.

Being the leading receiver on a multi superbowl team though goes a long way. Cris Carter blows them away at everything. Except being a winner.

[sharpe1027]

Monk and Irvin are very similar. Both were 3x Superbowl champs. Neither was the first inducted from their team. Both had 1x first team all-pro. Both only ever led the league in a single stat category once, receptions for Monk and Yards for Irvin. Monk played a good bit longer, Irvin had a higher yd/gm and td/gm average. Monk had a higher Rec/gm average.

Being the leading receiver on a multi superbowl team though goes a long way. Cris Carter blows them away at everything. Except being a winner.

Monk lead in Yds/game in 1985 (missed one game).

Irvin lead in Yds/game in 1996 (missed 5 games).

Comparing yds/gm and td/gm in the 80s to yds/gm and td/gm in the 90s isn't apples to apples.

The leaders in the 1990s were all above 1400 and mostly above 1500 yds/gm. They even were as high as 1800 in 1995.

The leaders in the 1980s were as low as just over 1000 and never above 1600.

That's what annoys me. Even if you completely ignore how much passing numbers inflated in the 90s, they were similar.

Monk eligible in: 2000; entered in 2008
Irvin eligible in: 2005; entered in 2007

Monk took from 2000 to 2008, Irving only took from 2005-2007 and he still got in first! Obviously, somebody thought they weren't so similar. Why would Irvin get in first? My best guess is because he had a "big name," he was controversial and because he "looked" impressive because of his size.

[packerbacker1234]

Packers HOF? Yes. Pro football HOF? Absolutely not.

There are a number of "tests" that each player must pass in order to make it (Peter King (a HOF voter) has talked at length about this).

The longevity test - HOF players played at a high level for a long time. Few players that retire before their mid 30's have a chance. Playing well beyind when their peers do is a sign of greateness. Driver passes this test.

The best test - To make the Hall a player must have been considered the best at their position for a period of their career. Since the Hall voters are also part of the MVP, DPOY, OPOY, and All-Pro voters, they look to these accolades first when making best assessments. Hall players typically earned multiple first team All-Pro accolades during their career, and earning MVP, DPOY, and/or OPOY honors at least once significantly improves their chances. Driver fails this test, having never earned a league-wide accolade above making the pro-bowl in his career.

The stats test - A player must have career statisics that places them high in the record books at the end of their career. Don is #40 on the career reception list, with about 650 (several active players ahead of him). He'll need to get to about 1,000 before he retires before that # becomes hall worthy. He's #42 on the career yards at about 9100. He'll need to get into the 13,000 area for that # to be hall worthy (lots of active players ahead of him). He's #92 on the career TD list with 51. He's very low in that stat. He'll need to hit at least 90 for his career to be hall worthy. There are a lot of active WR's with more career TD's than Don. Don fails the stats test.

The single season stats test - This goes back to and relates to the best test, but record setting seasons, and season's leading the league in a key stat significantly improve a players chances. This is hand in hand with the best test, almost always a player will earn the accolades that go with being considered the best if they put up the stats in a single season that prove they are the best. Driver fails this test.

The winner test - Hall voters clearly prefer players that won Superbowls. They seem to be very concious of how many players per superbowl team they have in the hall, and make efforts to correct deficiencies, or hold guys back so they don't have too many. For players that weren't on Superbowl teams, everything else has to shine relative to the guys that won them. If a guy was not a key component on a superbowl team, his chances clearly decline. This is really going to hurt Don's chances, thus far he hasn't been on a superbowl winning team, and if we do win it hurts him just as much since guys like Rodgers, Woodson, Matthews (?), and Finley (?) (possibly Collins too) would get hall looks before him, he likely would run into the too many HOF players on a SB team problem before he got in.

The big play test - This is less of a necessity, but it can provide a significant boost. If a player is known for a single play of greatness, it will signficantly improve their chances, especially if that play occurred on a big spot (even though the outcome was not in his favor, Woodson does have the tuck rule play going for him in this test, not as big of a boost as say James Harrison's pick 6 in the superbowl, but it will help him). Don has made a lot of nice plays, but he hasn't made one special memorable play in a big spot. The last Packer WR to make a single play that would help their HOF chances was Freeman's long TD catch in the Superbowl.

Don has a long way to go, and at his age it is very doubtful he'd get there. He basically would have to be the best WR in the league for a couple years here at the tail end of his career to give him a shot.

When you look at the guys that played the majority of their career in the 00's, Driver's peers, I think that Owens, Moss, Bruce, and Harrison are the ones that have a shot, each will get looks long before Don, outperforming him in every signle one of these tests.

You admitted the big play did not neccessary have to result in a big win - so if Freeman's long Super Bowl TD is a boost, wouldn't drivers long TD in the NFC Championship game in 2007 be considered a boost? He had to outrun defenders that were clearly faster than him in very cold weather in a sitution wher ethe packers hadn't been able to do anything offensively all game. He came through big, getting wide open and high stepping defenders down the sideline for a TD - a TD that coincidently was just enough to help us get into overtime later.

We didn't win - we all know how it ended, but wouldn't that be considered a "defining play in a big moment?".

[pbmax]

HoF is too much of a popularity contest. Micheal Irvin gets in before Art Monk? Please. I wish they had a more definitive guideline (maybe something like Waldo suggests), but they don't.
I don't think we agree on what popularity means. Monk was by far the better regarded person. By media and fans. Irvin was despised in many quarters.

The difference in their HOF candidacies was not popularity.

[sharpe1027]

I don't think we agree on what popularity means. Monk was by far the better regarded person. By media and fans. Irvin was despised in many quarters.

The difference in their HOF candidacies was not popularity.

Art Monk was regarded as the better person, but I meant that Irvin the football player was appealing to the general public in regards to their perception of his play on the field. I called that popularity, but I am sure there is a better word for it. Semantics aside, I am guessing you had a pretty good idea what I meant.

Obviously I can't prove what I believe, it is just my opinion. Did you have any explanation for the difference?

[mraynrand]

I don't think we agree on what popularity means. Monk was by far the better regarded person. By media and fans. Irvin was despised in many quarters.

The difference in their HOF candidacies was not popularity.

Art Monk was regarded as the better person, but I meant that Irvin the football player was appealing to the general public in regards to their perception of his play on the field. I called that popularity, but I am sure there is a better word for it. Semantics aside, I am guessing you had a pretty good idea what I meant.

Obviously I can't prove what I believe, it is just my opinion. Did you have any explanation for the difference?

Probably age and irritable bowel syndrome.