Packers Land RB AVG 4.8 Yards Per Carry

[Scott Campbell]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/getty/headshot/K/U/H/KUH609436.jpg

John Kuhn | #30 | FB

Height: 6-0 Weight: 250 Age: 28

Born: 9/9/1982 York , PA

College: Shippensburg

Experience: 5th season

High School: Dover HS [PA]

quick stats (2010)
CAR
17
YDS
82
AVG
4.8
TDS
1

[MichiganPackerFan]

There have been a couple of his runs that have been really fun to watch. He gets hit by one guy.... then another... then another and another and another but keeps driving his legs for 5+ more yards.

[mraynrand]

For a "Tall Bus" he sure runs with good pad level.

[Scott Campbell]

My jaw dropped when I saw his YPC. I'd like to see what he can do with 15 carries in a game.

[mraynrand]

My jaw dropped when I saw his YPC. I'd like to see what he can do with 15 carries in a game.

Just a wild guess, but I'm thinking somewhere around 72 yards?

[Patler]

My jaw dropped when I saw his YPC. I'd like to see what he can do with 15 carries in a game.

The guy is a fullback who has shared time with one or two other fullbacks in each game. If he had 15 plays a game he would probably collapse from exhaustion! :lol:

[CaliforniaCheez]

My jaw dropped when I saw his YPC. I'd like to see what he can do with 15 carries in a game.

Just a wild guess, but I'm thinking somewhere around 72 yards?


72 yards X 16 games = 1152 yards a season.


2009 Ryan Grant: 282 carries = 17.6/game

17.65 X 4.4 ave yards per carry = 77.5 yards a game = 1240 yards a season.

Actually being more precise Grant got 1253 yards last season.




Just something to think about for those clamoring for Ted Thompson to make a trade.

[Joemailman]

There certainly is something to be said for running an athletic 250 pound fullback behind Wells and Sitton, your two best run blockers. I'd like to see him get the ball a bit more, but 15 carries might be too much. I also wonder if you'll see it much against Detroit this week. The strength of the Lions defense is the interior of their defensive line. Suh will be hard to move.

[Brandon494]

You have to be kidding... Has the guy even broken a 10 yard run yet? Short yardage back I'm fine with. Everyday back not so much.

[Joemailman]

Actually, his 18 yard run the other night is tied for the longest on the team this year. I agree he's not an every down back, but he's capable of more than 3 yards and a cloud of dust.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think he's better than some think. Ignore the fact that he's white and played FB until this year, he's looked pretty good running the ball. He's mostly a run up the middle guy, but I'd have no problem giving him 10-15 carries/game. I'm more disappointed in Jackson than this guy. Jackson is good on third downs though.

[Scott Campbell]

I think he's better than some think. Ignore the fact that he's white and played FB until this year, he's looked pretty good running the ball. He's mostly a run up the middle guy, but I'd have no problem giving him 10-15 carries/game. I'm more disappointed in Jackson than this guy. Jackson is good on third downs though.


Jackson is a good 3rd down back. Why screw with that?

I think that's why we saw Kuhn starting the game at RB. I think he's our number 1 right now.

[imscott72]

Kuhn reminds me of Mike Alstott. He's a beast to bring down, and perfect for short yardage situations. 10 carries a game for Kuhn would be perfect.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

You guys have to be kidding me.......Kuhn?

[HarveyWallbangers]

dp

[HarveyWallbangers]

Kuhn reminds me of Mike Alstott. He's a beast to bring down, and perfect for short yardage situations. 10 carries a game for Kuhn would be perfect.

He actually reminds me a bit of John Riggins, but I'm dating myself. He has deceptive speed and a little shake to him. I said it in the preseason, but I'll repeat it. If you didn't know Kuhn is a converted FB and Toby Gerhart was a second round pick, you'd say Kuhn looks a lot better than Gerhart. That might not be saying much, but I don't think he's too bad. That being said, I'm definitely up for getting a better RB in here--but mainly because Jackson has disappointed.

[Scott Campbell]

He reminds me a little of Christian Okoye. But not quite as big. I'd like to see if we can establish some sort of a power running game, but I'm not sure we've got an OL that can lay the wood.

In my mind, anybody averaging 4.8 YPC has earned more touches. At least until they prove they can't get it done.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Kuhn reminds me of Mike Alstott. He's a beast to bring down, and perfect for short yardage situations. 10 carries a game for Kuhn would be perfect.

He actually reminds me a bit of John Riggins, but I'm dating myself. He has deceptive speed and a little shake to him. I said it in the preseason, but I'll repeat it. If you didn't know Kuhn is a converted FB and Toby Gerhart was a second round pick, you'd say Kuhn looks a lot better than Gerhart. That might not be saying much, but I don't think he's too bad. That being said, I'm definitely up for getting a better RB in here--but mainly because Jackson has disappointed.

But with his style of running I don't think it really works well with the o-line we have blocking for him. We need another guy like RG who sees a hole and hits it fast. If he got 15 carries a game he would not have a 5 yard average trust me on that. The passing game was doing really well and that opened up a couple runs for him. He is not a starting running in this league. I love Kuhn as a FB b/c he is a threat to get a couple carries and I never see him drop a pass. I'm not bashing Kuhn, he is a good player, but he is not a starting running back.

His average would be around 3 yards at the end of the year if he starts the rest of the season. I hope we make a trade for a running back or hopefully we get lucky and Starks is a player (that would be really lucky).

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

but I'm not sure we've got an OL that can lay the wood.

Thats why I don't like him starting, I just don't see it being successful over the course of the season. RG really was perfect for this offense. I didn't realize it at the time, but that was a HUGE loss for this team.

[Scott Campbell]

but I'm not sure we've got an OL that can lay the wood.

Thats why I don't like him starting, I just don't see it being successful over the course of the season. RG really was perfect for this offense. I didn't realize it at the time, but that was a HUGE loss for this team.


All you need to see is the 4.8 YPC. It's gaudy. The rest is pure speculation. It might be a fluke, but we won't know until he gets more touches.

[Patler]

I think he's better than some think. Ignore the fact that he's white and played FB until this year, he's looked pretty good running the ball. He's mostly a run up the middle guy, but I'd have no problem giving him 10-15 carries/game. I'm more disappointed in Jackson than this guy. Jackson is good on third downs though.

Agree 100%. Jackson looks so tentative finding a hole (or maybe I should say deciding were to go, because there often is no hole.) Kuhn at least picks a spot and hits it hard.

[Scott Campbell]

Then you start to examine the seemingly bizarre decision to carry just 2 RB's on the final roster, and perhaps the coaching staff thinks a lot more of him that some of us do.

[mraynrand]

The running game mostly sucks because the Packers have two starting tackles who can no longer run block. At all. They know it. They made a calculated decision to start them against Chicago to protect Rodgers, and pass the ball. Jackson is perfectly able to catch the short pass. Kuhn is perfectly able to run the ball here and there to just keep the defense honest. If they want to pound the rock any more than that, then they have to replace Clifton and Tauscher. And maybe get a better RB in there. Maybe replacing Clifton and Tauscher they don't get hurt in pass pro, but you don't test that out at Chicago against Peppers and that line. Maybe they do it this week against Detroit. Maybe they will be forced to when Clifton and Tauscher can't suit up.

[Scott Campbell]

Big name RB's vs. the Bears this year:

Marion Barber 11 carries 31 yards 2.8 YPC
Felix Jones 7 carries 7 yards 1.0 YPC
Jahvid Best 14 carries 20 yards 1.4 YPC

John Kuhn 6 carries 31 yards 5.2 YPC

[HarveyWallbangers]

But with his style of running I don't think it really works well with the o-line we have blocking for him. We need another guy like RG who sees a hole and hits it fast. If he got 15 carries a game he would not have a 5 yard average trust me on that.

Well, very few average 5 yards/carry. He might be able to average something around 4.2--which is about Ryan Grant was good for. Kuhn actually has deceptive speed and shake. He's not Korey Hall. Cleveland has a similar guy, Peyton Hillis, that is doing well for them.

[Freak Out]

I got no problem running him 10-15 times a game....we don't have a choice really considering how Jackson has looked...plus he has shown he can get some tough yards.

[Freak Out]

I am very curious how Nance is progressing with the team though....

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

But with his style of running I don't think it really works well with the o-line we have blocking for him. We need another guy like RG who sees a hole and hits it fast. If he got 15 carries a game he would not have a 5 yard average trust me on that.

Well, very few average 5 yards/carry. He might be able to average something around 4.2--which is about Ryan Grant was good for. Kuhn actually has deceptive speed and shake. He's not Korey Hall. Cleveland has a similar guy, Peyton Hillis, that is doing well for them.

Maybe you are right, I hope you are. But week 6 is getting close and now is the time to decide what to do with the running game. I would love nothing more than to be wrong, but I look at the line and I look at Kuhn and I don't see it working. I would prefer a speed guy who hits the hole hard. We will see how the next couple weeks play out I guess.

[Pugger]

I think he's better than some think. Ignore the fact that he's white and played FB until this year, he's looked pretty good running the ball. He's mostly a run up the middle guy, but I'd have no problem giving him 10-15 carries/game. I'm more disappointed in Jackson than this guy. Jackson is good on third downs though.

He played HB in college.

[Joemailman]

My guess is that Nance will start getting more carries once the coaching staff is satisfied that he knows his blitz pickups. Hopefully he's a quick study.

[HarveyWallbangers]

If Nance shows anything, I could see Kuhn and Nance each getting 8-10 carries/game with Jackson keeping the third down role.

[Patler]

My guess is that Nance will start getting more carries once the coaching staff is satisfied that he knows his blitz pickups. Hopefully he's a quick study.

A quick study would have played more last week, not been inactive on Monday, his 2nd week. He has already proven not to be a quick study, in my opinion.

He might just be keeping a roster spot warm for Starks. For the next three weeks he might just be a guy available in case another back is lost.

[HarveyWallbangers]

My guess is that Nance will start getting more carries once the coaching staff is satisfied that he knows his blitz pickups. Hopefully he's a quick study.

A quick study would have played more last week, not been inactive on Monday, his 2nd week. He has already proven not to be a quick study, in my opinion.

He might just be keeping a roster spot warm for Starks. For the next three weeks he might just be a guy available in case another back is lost.

Exactly what I was thinking. Sounds like Starks is close to 100%, if not already.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Nance, then Starks, for 10 carries/game.
Kuhn for 5-10 carries/game.
Jackson as third down back + occasional goal line and 1st and 2nd down carries.

[SkinBasket]

You have to be kidding... Has the guy even broken a 10 yard run yet? Short yardage back I'm fine with. Everyday back not so much.

4.8 yards isn't exactly "short." I would rather have a guy who runs for close to his average each time and keeps a drive alive than a guy who runs 10 times for 4 yards and kills two or three drives before breaking a 50 yarder then jumps up and flexes and smiles for the cameras. But that's just me.

[Patler]

Nance, then Starks, for 10 carries/game.
Kuhn for 5-10 carries/game.
Jackson as third down back + occasional goal line and 1st and 2nd down carries.

That could very well be how the season will play out in the rushing department. Starks could factor into the passing game, too. Reportedly he is a very good with routes and catching the ball.

[mraynrand]

"Starks, I just want to say Good luck, we're all counting on you."

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g63/flemtone/airplane_xl_01--film-A.jpg

[Smidgeon]

Kuhn reminds me of Mike Alstott. He's a beast to bring down, and perfect for short yardage situations. 10 carries a game for Kuhn would be perfect.

He actually reminds me a bit of John Riggins, but I'm dating myself. He has deceptive speed and a little shake to him. I said it in the preseason, but I'll repeat it. If you didn't know Kuhn is a converted FB and Toby Gerhart was a second round pick, you'd say Kuhn looks a lot better than Gerhart. That might not be saying much, but I don't think he's too bad. That being said, I'm definitely up for getting a better RB in here--but mainly because Jackson has disappointed.

Well, no one else would. Zing!

(Sorry, couldn't resist. I've been waiting to use that line for years.)

[OS PA]

He reminds me a little of Christian Okoye. But not quite as big. I'd like to see if we can establish some sort of a power running game, but I'm not sure we've got an OL that can lay the wood.

In my mind, anybody averaging 4.8 YPC has earned more touches. At least until they prove they can't get it done.

How much would our line suffer if we pulled Clifton and Tauscher in lieu of Bulaga and Lang. At least for the next couple of weeks. Rest our old tackles, and get our young guys some experience. We may give up another sack or two, and we may miss some blocking assignments, but it seems to me that our running game would be a little better, and we wouldn't be hurt as much by power-players like Peppers/Vanden-Bosch/Allen. I am not saying we should do this as a last ditch effort or because Clifton and Tauscher are entirely washed up, but it would be interesting to see if a younger line can gel. Cliffy and Tausch would also be healthier later in the season or in case we suffered an injury.

[Joemailman]

My guess is that Nance will start getting more carries once the coaching staff is satisfied that he knows his blitz pickups. Hopefully he's a quick study.

A quick study would have played more last week, not been inactive on Monday, his 2nd week. He has already proven not to be a quick study, in my opinion.

He might just be keeping a roster spot warm for Starks. For the next three weeks he might just be a guy available in case another back is lost.

Exactly what I was thinking. Sounds like Starks is close to 100%, if not already.

Some wonder how soon Starks can be ready for full contact though. He hasn't been in pads in almost 2 years. I don't know the answer. Pretty unusual situation.

[Brandon494]

Big name RB's vs. the Bears this year:

Marion Barber 11 carries 31 yards 2.8 YPC
Felix Jones 7 carries 7 yards 1.0 YPC
Jahvid Best 14 carries 20 yards 1.4 YPC

John Kuhn 6 carries 31 yards 5.2 YPC

Believe it or not we actually have a better O-line then the Cowboys and Lions.

[Brandon494]

But with his style of running I don't think it really works well with the o-line we have blocking for him. We need another guy like RG who sees a hole and hits it fast. If he got 15 carries a game he would not have a 5 yard average trust me on that.

Well, very few average 5 yards/carry. He might be able to average something around 4.2--which is about Ryan Grant was good for. Kuhn actually has deceptive speed and shake. He's not Korey Hall. Cleveland has a similar guy, Peyton Hillis, that is doing well for them.

Peyton Hillis I believe can be a success running back in this league but Kuhn Im not sure of.

[Brandon494]

You have to be kidding... Has the guy even broken a 10 yard run yet? Short yardage back I'm fine with. Everyday back not so much.

4.8 yards isn't exactly "short." I would rather have a guy who runs for close to his average each time and keeps a drive alive than a guy who runs 10 times for 4 yards and kills two or three drives before breaking a 50 yarder then jumps up and flexes and smiles for the cameras. But that's just me.

I'm sure if Kuhn EVER broke a 50 yard run he would jump up and flex.

Anyway he has only rushed the ball 17 times, so that 4.8 yards per carry is nothing to me. Shit even Deshawn Wynn has a career average of 5.2 ypc. The guy runs with effort, I give him that but if Kuhn is still our starter come playoff time I will be pretty upset with TT. For now we have no one better so go ahead and give him carries with Quinn Johnson blocking.

[denverYooper]

Kuhn's carries:

Philly: 12, 3, 3
Buf: 2, 4, 2, 7, 3, 0, 10, 3
Chi: 4, -1, 1, 7, 2, 18

Mean: 4.8
Median: 3
Mode: 3

He's been good for 1 >=10 run per game in limited action, has had only 1 negative run and Median/Mode suggest he's generally good for 3 yards per.
So, yeah, he just smashes it forward and occasionally breaks a longer run.

[Sparkey]

My guess is that Nance will start getting more carries once the coaching staff is satisfied that he knows his blitz pickups. Hopefully he's a quick study.

A quick study would have played more last week, not been inactive on Monday, his 2nd week. He has already proven not to be a quick study, in my opinion.

He might just be keeping a roster spot warm for Starks. For the next three weeks he might just be a guy available in case another back is lost.

From my understanding, the offense Nance learned in Atlanta is almost completely opposite of Green Bay. Numbers and Letters terminology is completely reversed. I think Nance was inactive because Green Bay had no intention of doing anything more than a token effort at running.

You watch Clifton and Tauscher run blocking and it is apparent that as long as they are the tackles, the run game will be average to below average. Neither player has the quickness to cutoff the backside pursuit anymore.

The running game wont improve until Bulaga and Lang are manning the tackle spots for Green Bay.

[run pMc]

Interesting stats, but I agree with Brandon494 that 17 carries isn't a very big sample size. If he's averaging 4.8 ypc after 100 carries then I'd be very impressed.

That said, I'm guessing Nance and Starks will battle for that #3 RB spot. I can't imagine with Harris, Bigby and Starks coming off the PUP they'll keep that many RBs on the roster. They'll have to cut somebody.
If Nance sparkles maybe they redshirt Starks onto IR with a phony injury.

[SkinBasket]

Interesting stats, but I agree with Brandon494

You're only agreeing with him because he's black.

I would like to point out we're talking about Brandon494, who anointed Dez Brayant a hall of famer before he ever caught a pass, but 17 carries isn't a "big enough sample size" to judge a RB? :lol: :lol:

I wonder what the defining difference between those two players is? I mean other than their real world production?

[Brandon494]

If you can find where I ever wrote Dez will be a HOF then I'll answer that question. I believe I said Dez will be a star reciever in this league one day while another poster declared he would be a bust.

[RashanGary]

We'll see how it all shakes out. Kuhn is better than I thought. He'll make a nice change of pace back. Hopefully Nance or Starks turns into a solid runner for us. I don't think you want Kuhn as your primary back, although there's nothing wrong with feeding him 10 carries in a game.

I liked who when Jackson was in, they did a lot of dump offs in open space to him. He catches the ball really well.

We're not getting the running yards with him, but he has been opening up a new wrinkle that we didn't have with Grant.

[SkinBasket]

If you can find where I ever wrote Dez will be a HOF then I'll answer that question. I believe I said Dez will be a star reciever in this league one day while another poster declared he would be a bust.

Now we're going to get all semantical? Oh, snap!


Dez Byrant is the next big thing at reciever

Dez Byrant will be a stud in this league and you can quote me on that.

So you just believe he has undeniable (yet unproven) talent, will be the best WR in the league and a "stud" (you said I could quote you) in the league, but apparently he won't be a HOF player? Fine. Can we quote you on that too?

Guess I confused your glamorous premature assessment of Dez's mystical future with JH's. You guys were both so excited about him, it's hard to separate one jet of spooge from another.

Will you grace us with an answer now, or will your assessments of non-skin color based talent/production remain a mystery to us for all time?

[run pMc]

You're only agreeing with him because he's black.

I would like to point out we're talking about Brandon494, who anointed Dez Brayant a hall of famer before he ever caught a pass, but 17 carries isn't a "big enough sample size" to judge a RB?

I wonder what the defining difference between those two players is? I mean other than their real world production?


LMAO

Too early to say with Dez Bryant IMO. Ask me in 2 years.
All I know right now is Bryant is talented and that Bryant's career is 3 games to Kuhn's 5 years. I'd expect coaches would know if Kuhn was a future HOFer by now. If Kuhn belated blooms into the 2nd coming of John Riggins, then I'll be surprised and very very happy.

[packerbacker1234]

ALl I know is, just like LT on the jets - the man has earned the right to see what he can do with more carries. He is a punishing style runner, very physical at the point of contact. Those type of runners are the sort that wear down defenses over the course of a game.

10 carries sounds nice, but with 20 he would really be wearing them down by the 4th quarter. With Hall and Quin Johnson at FB, it's not like we really need him to play FB ever.

[mraynrand]

I feel like this thread is turning into France, circa 1938. The Packers are going to pound the ball? It's like arguing in favor of the Maginot line. The Packers have a sophisticated aerial attack, and need only a little running to keep the defense honest. The way this discussion is headed, someone is going to start talking about using the football equivalent of the cavalry - locking arms.

http://www.artletics.com/siteadmin/images/products/pro_126_2.jpg

[Fritz]

The running game mostly sucks because the Packers have two starting tackles who can no longer run block. At all. They know it. They made a calculated decision to start them against Chicago to protect Rodgers, and pass the ball. Jackson is perfectly able to catch the short pass. Kuhn is perfectly able to run the ball here and there to just keep the defense honest. If they want to pound the rock any more than that, then they have to replace Clifton and Tauscher. And maybe get a better RB in there. Maybe replacing Clifton and Tauscher they don't get hurt in pass pro, but you don't test that out at Chicago against Peppers and that line. Maybe they do it this week against Detroit. Maybe they will be forced to when Clifton and Tauscher can't suit up.

I think this is the central issue. Ain't nowhere for no one to run.

[sharpe1027]

ALl I know is, just like LT on the jets - the man has earned the right to see what he can do with more carries. He is a punishing style runner, very physical at the point of contact. Those type of runners are the sort that wear down defenses over the course of a game.

10 carries sounds nice, but with 20 he would really be wearing them down by the 4th quarter. With Hall and Quin Johnson at FB, it's not like we really need him to play FB ever.

How many drives would end up being killed to get him the 20 carries? That's the real problem. I'm sure they'd have no trouble giving him 30 carries, so long as they were moving the ball. If a team played the run honestly, I am willing to bet that his Yds/Att would suddenly drop.

[Brandon494]

If you can find where I ever wrote Dez will be a HOF then I'll answer that question. I believe I said Dez will be a star reciever in this league one day while another poster declared he would be a bust.

Now we're going to get all semantical? Oh, snap!


Dez Byrant is the next big thing at reciever

Dez Byrant will be a stud in this league and you can quote me on that.

So you just believe he has undeniable (yet unproven) talent, will be the best WR in the league and a "stud" (you said I could quote you) in the league, but apparently he won't be a HOF player? Fine. Can we quote you on that too?

Guess I confused your glamorous premature assessment of Dez's mystical future with JH's. You guys were both so excited about him, it's hard to separate one jet of spooge from another.

Will you grace us with an answer now, or will your assessments of non-skin color based talent/production remain a mystery to us for all time?

Anquad Boldin, Bradon Marshall, Roddy White, Chad Ochocinco

All stud WRs but none will be HOFers in my mind. So just because I stated Dez will be a stud in this league does not mean I think he will be the best reciever nor HOF WR so you can stop trying to twist what I wrote.

Also Kuhn being white has nothing to do with why I don't think he'll suceed as a RB. Dude has yet to even carry the ball in double digits yet some want to claim him as the next Riggins? Kuhn is too slow and does not have the moves that you want in a RB. You really think teams are going to prepare how to stop Kuhn? Of course not, so just because he broke off one big run doesnt mean he could put up a 4.8 ypc with more attempts.

Now Peyton Hillis on the other hand is a rushing FB who I do like and guess what hes white! :shock:

I do find it funy that you think I believe Dez has potential because hes black and Kuhn doesnt because hes white. Might want to ask any NFL expert about both players and I guarntee that most will agree with me.

[SkinBasket]

So just because I stated Dez will be a stud in this league does not mean I think he will be the best reciever nor HOF WR so you can stop trying to twist what I wrote.

I didn't twist what you wrote. In fact, I made a point of admitting that I confused what JH wrote with what you wrote, no matter how similar the meaning.


Also Kuhn being white has nothing to do with why I don't think he'll suceed as a RB.

But what separates Kuhn's limited carries from Dez's 0/0/0/0 statline at the time? You were willing to go to bat for one while disregarding the other. One isn't worth regard, yet the other is a Brandon-proclaimed "next big thing" and a "stud in the league." I'm just trying to understand why one has production to back him up and the other doesn't, yet you're confident in discounting those numbers.


Now Peyton Hillis on the other hand is a rushing FB who I do like and guess what hes white! :shock:

What separates the two other than one good fantasy football day? The only comparison you offer is that they are both white FBs. I'm more interested in what makes them different.


I do find it funy that you think I believe Dez has potential because hes black and Kuhn doesnt because hes white. Might want to ask any NFL expert about both players and I guarntee that most will agree with me.

First, I'm going to ask the dictionary where you went wrong. Second, I'll ask spellcheck where you went wrong. Third, I'll ask someone somewhere where I made such an accusation concerning you. I'm just trying to find what you feel is so different between the two. The fact you make the jump to race makes me a wee bit suspicious though.

[bobblehead]

Now Peyton Hillis on the other hand is a rushing FB who I do like and guess what hes white! :shock:



FUCK....I just put in for him in my fantasy league....gonna go back and try to drop him....I didn't know he was white.

[Brandon494]

So just because I stated Dez will be a stud in this league does not mean I think he will be the best reciever nor HOF WR so you can stop trying to twist what I wrote.

I didn't twist what you wrote. In fact, I made a point of admitting that I confused what JH wrote with what you wrote, no matter how similar the meaning.


Also Kuhn being white has nothing to do with why I don't think he'll suceed as a RB.

But what separates Kuhn's limited carries from Dez's 0/0/0/0 statline at the time? You were willing to go to bat for one while disregarding the other. One isn't worth regard, yet the other is a Brandon-proclaimed "next big thing" and a "stud in the league." I'm just trying to understand why one has production to back him up and the other doesn't, yet you're confident in discounting those numbers.

What seperates them? One is a 1st round draft pick even though he only played three games in 2009 while the other is an undrafted FB who is a 5 year veteren. Do you believe Kuhn has more potential then Dez Bryant? Of course not so wtf are you trying to prove? It has nothing to do with stats. I've watched both these guys play the game of football and I believe Dez Bryant will be a star in this league at WR while Kuhn will not suceed as a running back.


Now Peyton Hillis on the other hand is a rushing FB who I do like and guess what hes white! :shock:

What separates the two other than one good fantasy football day? The only comparison you offer is that they are both white FBs. I'm more interested in what makes them different.

What separates them? Have you ever seen Peyton Hillis play? No? Well go youtube him and see how stupid that question is.


I do find it funy that you think I believe Dez has potential because hes black and Kuhn doesnt because hes white. Might want to ask any NFL expert about both players and I guarntee that most will agree with me.

First, I'm going to ask the dictionary where you went wrong. Second, I'll ask spellcheck where you went wrong. Third, I'll ask someone somewhere where I made such an accusation concerning you. I'm just trying to find what you feel is so different between the two. The fact you make the jump to race makes me a wee bit suspicious though.

Exactly what does it make you suspicious of? I would LOVE to hear this.

[swede]

What would Jimmy the Greek say about the superiority of the black athlete?

[bobblehead]

What would Jimmy the Greek say about the superiority of the black athlete?

Same as Tarlam! ....and he would be wrong too. I blame our inability to have an honest discussion on race for Jimmy's stupidity. The poor old goat was never allowed to learn the truth so he said something stupid.

[Scott Campbell]

[quote="Brandon494"]Dude has yet to even carry the ball in double digits yet some want to claim him as the next Riggins? Kuhn is too slow and does not have the moves that you want in a RB. /quote]


Uhhh, did you ever watch John Riggins?

[Fritz]

He could puke under a table at a State dinner like nobody's business.

[Brandon494]

[quote=Brandon494]Dude has yet to even carry the ball in double digits yet some want to claim him as the next Riggins? Kuhn is too slow and does not have the moves that you want in a RB. /quote]


Uhhh, did you ever watch John Riggins?

Yea, I live right outside of DC. I know Riggins was not fast and just bulldozed over defenders but that was a different time in the NFL. I doubt he would put up the same numbers today.

[SkinBasket]

What seperates them? One is a 1st round draft pick even though he only played three games in 2009 while the other is an undrafted FB who is a 5 year veteren. Do you believe Kuhn has more potential then Dez Bryant? Of course not so wtf are you trying to prove? It has nothing to do with stats. I've watched both these guys play the game of football and I believe Dez Bryant will be a star in this league at WR while Kuhn will not suceed as a running back.

This isn't about potential. It's about production. You're disregarding measurable production (the stats you confusingly claim this has nothing to do with) in the name of potential (your opinion of how effective a football player might be). I just wonder what criteria you use to form your opinion on potential, because you haven't answered yet.


What separates them? Have you ever seen Peyton Hillis play? No? Well go youtube him and see how stupid that question is.

Thank you for the thoughtful analysis. But Kuhn still averages 4.8 YPC while Hillis averages 5.1. Are you suggesting Hillis looks better averaging an additional 0.3 YPC, which in turn makes him so infinitely better that comparing the two is "stupid?" Strange how you disregard stats as unimportant to a discussion about production while presenting nothing more than a suggestion of visual evidence of something you refuse to define to counter them.

I'm still wondering why you would chose to compare one white RB to another, as if their whiteness inherently proves some point.


Exactly what does it make you suspicious of? I would LOVE to hear this.


I'll tell you after you answer the original question: what, besides race separates Dez and Kuhn to such a degree that you are willing to disregard their actual measurable production and proclaim one a superstar while the other is a guaranteed failure?

[MichiganPackerFan]

Yea, I live right outside of DC...

Are you in Richmond or DC? My wife & I are in Old Town, Alexandria...

[Pugger]

My guess is that Nance will start getting more carries once the coaching staff is satisfied that he knows his blitz pickups. Hopefully he's a quick study.

A quick study would have played more last week, not been inactive on Monday, his 2nd week. He has already proven not to be a quick study, in my opinion.

He might just be keeping a roster spot warm for Starks. For the next three weeks he might just be a guy available in case another back is lost.

From my understanding, the offense Nance learned in Atlanta is almost completely opposite of Green Bay. Numbers and Letters terminology is completely reversed. I think Nance was inactive because Green Bay had no intention of doing anything more than a token effort at running.

You watch Clifton and Tauscher run blocking and it is apparent that as long as they are the tackles, the run game will be average to below average. Neither player has the quickness to cutoff the backside pursuit anymore.

The running game wont improve until Bulaga and Lang are manning the tackle spots for Green Bay.

Clifton was never known for his run blocking prowess. When Bulaga and Lang are ready they'll play. Evidently the coaches don't think they are ready for the premier pass rushers yet and we sure as hell don't want some goon like Peppers taking Rodgers out!! :shock: If the veteran tackles have to hold sometimes to keep guys away from our Franchise QB then so be it until the younger tackles are ready.

[packerbacker1234]

When I say 20 carries, I am talking about more of later in the season. Games outside are going to get cold. It's going to snow. In some games, it may even be raining. Point is, when weather gets bad, you NEED to be able to run the ball. Passing wont be nearly as effective. WR's will have a harder time making moves to get open, the ball is harder to throw AND harder to catch - run game has to be part of this offense late int he season.

That is one thing we could always rely on grant for - first hafl the season He would suck, mostly I think by design of the offense. 2nd half in bade weather, he would really come on when we needed to be able to run the ball. Point is, we are going to STILL need to be able to run the ball in the last 8 games to win - not just to "keep them honest" - but be able to realistically run as a real threat to produce points. Grant gave that, and by all indications, Kuhn has earned a shot as being a straight north and south pile pusher. Not as good as Grant overall, but sometimes as bigger backs have proved - if you can move the pile, that's good enough.

[Brandon494]

What seperates them? One is a 1st round draft pick even though he only played three games in 2009 while the other is an undrafted FB who is a 5 year veteren. Do you believe Kuhn has more potential then Dez Bryant? Of course not so wtf are you trying to prove? It has nothing to do with stats. I've watched both these guys play the game of football and I believe Dez Bryant will be a star in this league at WR while Kuhn will not suceed as a running back.

This isn't about potential. It's about production. You're disregarding measurable production (the stats you confusingly claim this has nothing to do with) in the name of potential (your opinion of how effective a football player might be). I just wonder what criteria you use to form your opinion on potential, because you haven't answered yet.

I use my knowledge of a game I've played and watched since I was a kid. I guess some of you only watch Packer games which there is nothing wrong with but I'm a huge college and NFL fan. I'm not a college or NFL scout by any means but I do believe I have a pretty decent eye for talent. Kuhn has not shown me anything special except for effort and that can only go so far in the NFL when you don't have the talent to go along with it.


What separates them? Have you ever seen Peyton Hillis play? No? Well go youtube him and see how stupid that question is.

Thank you for the thoughtful analysis. But Kuhn still averages 4.8 YPC while Hillis averages 5.1. Are you suggesting Hillis looks better averaging an additional 0.3 YPC, which in turn makes him so infinitely better that comparing the two is "stupid?" Strange how you disregard stats as unimportant to a discussion about production while presenting nothing more than a suggestion of visual evidence of something you refuse to define to counter them.

I'm still wondering why you would chose to compare one white RB to another, as if their whiteness inherently proves some point.

I choose Peyton Hillis because hes a FB who now plays RB just like Kuhn. Has nothing to do with him being white, he was just the first player that came to mind.

As for the stats Hillis is averaging 5.6 yards per carry on 39 carries this season with 3 TDs. He also has 14 catches.

Kuhn has a CAREER 35 carries for 3.7 yards with 3 TDs and a CAREER 16 catches.

In other words in three games Hillis has put up Kuhn's career numbers. Now that might be a bit unfair since Kuhn has mainly played FB in his career but it is what it is. Hillis is faster, has much better hands, and has more moves you want from a running back. I told you to check him out on youtube because you obviously have never seen this guy play. You think just because Kuhn averages .3 yards a carry less then him that his is just as good? States don't tell the whole sorry buddy, thats why I told you go to check out some game film on him. If stats told the whole sorry then I guess Tony Romo is just as good as Aaron Rodgers since they put up simliar stats.


Exactly what does it make you suspicious of? I would LOVE to hear this.


I'll tell you after you answer the original question: what, besides race separates Dez and Kuhn to such a degree that you are willing to disregard their actual measurable production and proclaim one a superstar while the other is a guaranteed failure?

You mean besides common sense?

Dez Bryant has all the tools you look for in a receiever. Kuhn on the other hand is just a north to south runner who runs with a lot of effort. Bottom line is if Kuhn did not want to play FB and wanted to be a running back only he would NOT make an NFL team. Thats my opinion and if you don't agree I could care less but it has nothing to do with one player being black and the other being white but of course you want to take it there.

[Brandon494]

Yea, I live right outside of DC...

Are you in Richmond or DC? My wife & I are in Old Town, Alexandria...

Richmond, VA.

Are you going to the Skins game in a couple of weeks? It will be my first Packers game and Im pumped about it. :D

[Brandon494]

When I say 20 carries, I am talking about more of later in the season. Games outside are going to get cold. It's going to snow. In some games, it may even be raining. Point is, when weather gets bad, you NEED to be able to run the ball. Passing wont be nearly as effective. WR's will have a harder time making moves to get open, the ball is harder to throw AND harder to catch - run game has to be part of this offense late int he season.

That is one thing we could always rely on grant for - first hafl the season He would suck, mostly I think by design of the offense. 2nd half in bade weather, he would really come on when we needed to be able to run the ball. Point is, we are going to STILL need to be able to run the ball in the last 8 games to win - not just to "keep them honest" - but be able to realistically run as a real threat to produce points. Grant gave that, and by all indications, Kuhn has earned a shot as being a straight north and south pile pusher. Not as good as Grant overall, but sometimes as bigger backs have proved - if you can move the pile, that's good enough.

I agree which is why I think TT needs to bring in another RB. I mean RB is prob the easiest position to fill yet he done nothing. I'm a TT supporter but sometimes the guy gets on my nerves.

[ThunderDan]

When I say 20 carries, I am talking about more of later in the season. Games outside are going to get cold. It's going to snow. In some games, it may even be raining. Point is, when weather gets bad, you NEED to be able to run the ball. Passing wont be nearly as effective. WR's will have a harder time making moves to get open, the ball is harder to throw AND harder to catch - run game has to be part of this offense late int he season.

That is one thing we could always rely on grant for - first hafl the season He would suck, mostly I think by design of the offense. 2nd half in bade weather, he would really come on when we needed to be able to run the ball. Point is, we are going to STILL need to be able to run the ball in the last 8 games to win - not just to "keep them honest" - but be able to realistically run as a real threat to produce points. Grant gave that, and by all indications, Kuhn has earned a shot as being a straight north and south pile pusher. Not as good as Grant overall, but sometimes as bigger backs have proved - if you can move the pile, that's good enough.

I agree which is why I think TT needs to bring in another RB. I mean RB is prob the easiest position to fill yet he done nothing. I'm a TT supporter but sometimes the guy gets on my nerves.

Who are they going to bring in and who are the cutting?

We have 3 players coming off of the PUP and we will have to cut 3 players when they activate if they do. So do you sign a RB knowing he most likely is getting cut in a couple of weeks if Starks is ready? Would that player want to come to GB knowing he probably will get cut in a couple of weeks when he could go to NE and stay the whole year?

I am assuning Peprah and Underwood/Bush/Lee will be cut when Bigby and Harris get back.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Yea, I live right outside of DC...

Are you in Richmond or DC? My wife & I are in Old Town, Alexandria...

Richmond, VA.

Are you going to the Skins game in a couple of weeks? It will be my first Packers game and Im pumped about it. :D

We were planning on it and really looking forward to it. However we just cant afford it this time around, so it will be brats and beer and watching it at home. Have a great time!

[Patler]

I agree which is why I think TT needs to bring in another RB. I mean RB is prob the easiest position to fill yet he done nothing. I'm a TT supporter but sometimes the guy gets on my nerves.

One of the Packer beat writers had an article last week. He contacted personnel guys for several teams, and there seemed to be a feeling that Nance was among the best available. One personnel guy said Nance was at the top of their "emergency list" for running backs. He said TT got the right guy, or something to that effect.

I'm not sure what else you expect.

[sharpe1027]

One of the Packer beat writers had an article last week. He contacted personnel guys for several teams, and there seemed to be a feeling that Nance was among the best available. One personnel guy said Nance was at the top of their "emergency list" for running backs. He said TT got the right guy, or something to that effect.

I'm not sure what else you expect.

Interesting. They might have Starks back in a few weeks as well. Who knows if he's any better, but I guess there is at least a little bit of hope.

[get louder at lambeau]

You guys were both so excited about him, it's hard to separate one jet of spooge from another.

That quote calls for a gay pride rainbow wave right there.

:wave:

[packerbacker1234]

It was funny how people were all excited for starks when grant was healthy, but once he got hurt worry seeped in relying on a rookie.

All I know is our rushing attack and RB situation has clearly shown how valuable Grant was. Sometimes you just don't realize what you have until it's gone. Here's hoping grant makes a fully recovery (which he should) and be good to go next season.

As for this year... we would be fine if we weren't an outdoor team. We'll see what we do.

[Brandon494]

I agree which is why I think TT needs to bring in another RB. I mean RB is prob the easiest position to fill yet he done nothing. I'm a TT supporter but sometimes the guy gets on my nerves.

One of the Packer beat writers had an article last week. He contacted personnel guys for several teams, and there seemed to be a feeling that Nance was among the best available. One personnel guy said Nance was at the top of their "emergency list" for running backs. He said TT got the right guy, or something to that effect.

I'm not sure what else you expect.

No offense but I could care less what some nameless personnel guys think. Hes an undrafted rookie who barely averaged 4 yards per carry in the Pac-10. What I expect is trade some draft picks and go get a running back. Doesnt have to be a flashy back. Broncos went out and got Laurence Maroney for a 4th round pick and also picked up a 6th rounder in the deal.

If a team like the Broncos who don't plan to even make the playoffs can go out and trade for a RB when their starter is only out for 4-5 weeks why can't the Packers? We are a Super Bowl pick this season and lost our starting RB for the season and currently only have one RB active. I know a lot of you guys like Kuhn because hes a high effort guy but Jackson and Kuhn make up the worst rushing tandem in the league.

I had high hopes for Starks but only as a 3rd down back. He might still show something but he hasnt had full contact in also 2 years and is also injury prone. All Im saying is even if you have to overpay alittle go out and find us a running back. We might be ok right now but come around november/december we are going to need a running game.

[sharpe1027]

It was funny how people were all excited for starks when grant was healthy, but once he got hurt worry seeped in relying on a rookie.

All I know is our rushing attack and RB situation has clearly shown how valuable Grant was. Sometimes you just don't realize what you have until it's gone. Here's hoping grant makes a fully recovery (which he should) and be good to go next season.

As for this year... we would be fine if we weren't an outdoor team. We'll see what we do.

I agree that the loss of Grant is a very big deal. I don't think there's any thing inconsistent about being excited about the prospect of the 3rd string rookie back and at the same time not thinking that same 3rd stringer is ready for a starting role.

[Joemailman]

Does anybody consider the possibility that Nance could turn out to be as good as Grant, but it might take a little while? Both were undrafted. Both joined the Packers without the benefit of being through training camp with the Packers. It took Grant almost half a season before the Packers felt he was ready to start. It could be the same situation for Nance.

[Smidgeon]

Does anybody consider the possibility that Nance could turn out to be as good as Grant, but it might take a little while? Both were undrafted. Both joined the Packers without the benefit of being through training camp with the Packers. It took Grant almost half a season before the Packers felt he was ready to start. It could be the same situation for Nance.

That's too much Kool-aid for the mass crisis we're in after such a derailing loss that threw the entire season out the window.

:mrgreen:

[Jimx29]

cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooon

[Patler]

No offense but I could care less what some nameless personnel guys think. Hes an undrafted rookie who barely averaged 4 yards per carry in the Pac-10. What I expect is trade some draft picks and go get a running back. Doesnt have to be a flashy back. Broncos went out and got Laurence Maroney for a 4th round pick and also picked up a 6th rounder in the deal.

If a team like the Broncos who don't plan to even make the playoffs can go out and trade for a RB when their starter is only out for 4-5 weeks why can't the Packers? We are a Super Bowl pick this season and lost our starting RB for the season and currently only have one RB active. I know a lot of you guys like Kuhn because hes a high effort guy but Jackson and Kuhn make up the worst rushing tandem in the league.

I had high hopes for Starks but only as a 3rd down back. He might still show something but he hasnt had full contact in also 2 years and is also injury prone. All Im saying is even if you have to overpay alittle go out and find us a running back. We might be ok right now but come around november/december we are going to need a running game.

You keep bringing up the undrafted status of players, as if that necessarily means they can't possibly be as good or better than a drafted player.

Just looking at RBs, Ryan Grant was undrafted, as was Willie Parker and Priest Holmes. I'll take a new version of Grant, Parker or Holmes. Perhaps Nance really is a better option than Maroney, the has-beens that are available, and the backs other teams might be willing to trade.

What makes Starks "injury prone"? Just because he missed his Senior year? He played 36 games the three years before that. It seems like any player injured as a Senior is "injury prone" but not if they miss their sophmore or Junior years. Maybe he will be, but we don't know that yet for sure.

[swede]

No offense but I could care less what some nameless personnel guys think. Hes an undrafted rookie who barely averaged 4 yards per carry in the Pac-10. What I expect is trade some draft picks and go get a running back. Doesnt have to be a flashy back. Broncos went out and got Laurence Maroney for a 4th round pick and also picked up a 6th rounder in the deal.

If a team like the Broncos who don't plan to even make the playoffs can go out and trade for a RB when their starter is only out for 4-5 weeks why can't the Packers? We are a Super Bowl pick this season and lost our starting RB for the season and currently only have one RB active. I know a lot of you guys like Kuhn because hes a high effort guy but Jackson and Kuhn make up the worst rushing tandem in the league.

I had high hopes for Starks but only as a 3rd down back. He might still show something but he hasnt had full contact in also 2 years and is also injury prone. All Im saying is even if you have to overpay alittle go out and find us a running back. We might be ok right now but come around november/december we are going to need a running game.

You keep bringing up the undrafted status of players, as if that necessarily means they can't possibly be as good or better than a drafted player.

Just looking at RBs, Ryan Grant was undrafted, as was Willie Parker and Priest Holmes. I'll take a new version of Grant, Parker or Holmes. Perhaps Nance really is a better option than Maroney, the has-beens that are available, and the backs other teams might be willing to trade.

What makes Starks "injury prone"? Just because he missed his Senior year? He played 36 games the three years before that. It seems like any player injured as a Senior is "injury prone" but not if they miss their sophmore or Junior years. Maybe he will be, but we don't know that yet for sure.

I agree with your point, but shoulder injuries are a different animal. Once injured, that joint tends to be susceptible to recurring problems. The good thing about Stark's hammy injury is that it may have given him an extra couple of months to strengthen that post-surgical shoulder before enduring NFL collisions.

[Scott Campbell]

Kuhn looked pretty good again today, shoving it down the throat of a Lion defense stacked against the run. It' s been a long time since the Packers ran 6 and a half minutes off the clock to close out a game.

[red]

Kuhn looked pretty good again today, shoving it down the throat of a Lion defense stacked against the run. It' s been a long time since the Packers ran 6 and a half minutes off the clock to close out a game.

he just drops his head and runs as hard as he can at the hole. no screwing around, no dancing. just a bruising running back.

i would like to see a different main running back, then use kuhn as the thunder/3rd down back

[denverYooper]

Kuhn looked pretty good again today, shoving it down the throat of a Lion defense stacked against the run. It' s been a long time since the Packers ran 6 and a half minutes off the clock to close out a game.

Huge series by Kuhn when they needed it most. Player of the game.

[get louder at lambeau]

Kuhn looked pretty good again today, shoving it down the throat of a Lion defense stacked against the run. It' s been a long time since the Packers ran 6 and a half minutes off the clock to close out a game.

Huge series by Kuhn when they needed it most. Player of the game.

+1

Meanwhile Marshawn Lynch had 4 carries for 8 yards (2.0 ypc) and a fumble.

Blame his OL? Maybe not, since Fred Jackson averaged 7.0, Spiller averaged 5.5, and even QB Fitzpatrick had success on the ground, averaging 10.1.

[denverYooper]

Kuhn had 7 of his 9 carries on that last drive:

1st 3Q: 4, 1
last drive: 7,5,6,5,2,1,8

[denverYooper]

Bjack: 11,6,0,4,-1,14,2,0,-3

he had a 12 yard run on the offsetting Finley/KVB penalties.

[Brandon494]

No offense but I could care less what some nameless personnel guys think. Hes an undrafted rookie who barely averaged 4 yards per carry in the Pac-10. What I expect is trade some draft picks and go get a running back. Doesnt have to be a flashy back. Broncos went out and got Laurence Maroney for a 4th round pick and also picked up a 6th rounder in the deal.

If a team like the Broncos who don't plan to even make the playoffs can go out and trade for a RB when their starter is only out for 4-5 weeks why can't the Packers? We are a Super Bowl pick this season and lost our starting RB for the season and currently only have one RB active. I know a lot of you guys like Kuhn because hes a high effort guy but Jackson and Kuhn make up the worst rushing tandem in the league.

I had high hopes for Starks but only as a 3rd down back. He might still show something but he hasnt had full contact in also 2 years and is also injury prone. All Im saying is even if you have to overpay alittle go out and find us a running back. We might be ok right now but come around november/december we are going to need a running game.

You keep bringing up the undrafted status of players, as if that necessarily means they can't possibly be as good or better than a drafted player.

Just looking at RBs, Ryan Grant was undrafted, as was Willie Parker and Priest Holmes. I'll take a new version of Grant, Parker or Holmes. Perhaps Nance really is a better option than Maroney, the has-beens that are available, and the backs other teams might be willing to trade.

What makes Starks "injury prone"? Just because he missed his Senior year? He played 36 games the three years before that. It seems like any player injured as a Senior is "injury prone" but not if they miss their sophmore or Junior years. Maybe he will be, but we don't know that yet for sure.

You really can't compare Nance to those running backs just because they were undrafted. Maybe he does turn into the next Grant but I'm not trying to risk a trip to the big game on a undrafted rookie being a hidden gem. Just trade draft picks and pick up someone that has had starting experience.

As for Starks he might not be injury prone but he still hasnt played in a live game in also 2 years. Then again maybe the coaches know something we don't and believe James is as good as any RB the can get right now. I was high on the guy when we drafted him, hopefully he can have a season like Grant in 07.

[mission]

Imagine we had a guy who was actually fast.

The line does ok at times, I see some decent holes out there -- imagine a real fucking gamebreaker out there.

Man, this team could be ridiculous. We aren't right now.

[MJZiggy]

Imagine we had a guy who was actually fast.

The line does ok at times, I see some decent holes out there -- imagine a real fucking gamebreaker out there.

Man, this team could be ridiculous. We aren't right now.

I disagree. The Packers are completely ridiculous right now.

[mission]

Imagine we had a guy who was actually fast.

The line does ok at times, I see some decent holes out there -- imagine a real fucking gamebreaker out there.

Man, this team could be ridiculous. We aren't right now.

I disagree. The Packers are completely ridiculous right now.

We have a different understanding of the word 'ridiculous' :lol:

(and think we agree)

[Patler]

You really can't compare Nance to those running backs just because they were undrafted. Maybe he does turn into the next Grant but I'm not trying to risk a trip to the big game on a undrafted rookie being a hidden gem. Just trade draft picks and pick up someone that has had starting experience.

As for Starks he might not be injury prone but he still hasnt played in a live game in also 2 years. Then again maybe the coaches know something we don't and believe James is as good as any RB the can get right now. I was high on the guy when we drafted him, hopefully he can have a season like Grant in 07.

I'm not comparing Nance to the others. Nance has proven nothing as of yet. However, I AM suggesting that you shouldn't continually dismiss players who were not drafted.

Saying; "Just trade draft picks and pick up someone that has had starting experience." makes it sound much simpler than I suspect it really is. Who is that player, and will he really help? Samkon Gado has starting experience and is probably available. How many draft picks and in what rounds should the Packers be willing to give up? Anything that it takes?

Starks is the same as Nance. Nothing for sure at all. But at least the staff did have him in the camps before training camp, so hopefully have a feel for what he can do. I'm looking forward to his debut, because a lot of evaluations sound good.

[imscott72]

The run game worked late in the game, but it really hurt us up to that point. This game showed by we can't rely on the pass game all season. When it doesn't work the defense is on the field way too much. How long are we going to stick with Tausch and Clifton and their weak run blocking skills?

[NewsBruin]

Honestly, I'm not enamored with many of the "available" running backs. Starting experience doesn't mean a whole lot to me if a guy can't stay healthy or distinguish himself from the pack (Maroney, Maroney, Maroney).

With their short shelf life, running backs end up costing you for the miles earned on someone else's payroll. For someone who's had a starting role, they're usually overvalued. For someone really worth the trade, they're just too expensive. I would not want to give a 1-3 round pick for someone with less than 3 seasons' worth of current-level production left.

From what's been reported, TT has been stoned on at least two backs (Marshawn Lynch and Denver's Andre Brown). He's signed someone who was reported as one of the best practice backs and has another available in week 7. I'm not happy with Kuhn as our Option 1, but for 2 more weeks, it's okay. I don't think TT's not trying on that position.

I think there were some things Ted's sat too pat on (d-backs, o-backs, O-line coaching), but I think it's under the premise of not blowing up one part of the team to salvage another. Well, other than O-line coaching, which is a huge part of the running game.

[bobblehead]

Kuhn looked pretty good again today, shoving it down the throat of a Lion defense stacked against the run. It' s been a long time since the Packers ran 6 and a half minutes off the clock to close out a game.

he just drops his head and runs as hard as he can at the hole. no screwing around, no dancing. just a bruising running back.

i would like to see a different main running back, then use kuhn as the thunder/3rd down back

I actually disagree with this. I think he has very good vision and actually finds the hole....what he lacks is burst to the hole or he would be very good. As it is, he finds it and doesn't get negative runs....I'm ok with that for now.

[packerbacker1234]

All I know is this - when we needed to absolutely eat clock against a defense with what I would argue is one of the best front 4 in the game, let alone a decent LB core for stopping the run - with everyone stacked against the run...

Kuhn got the call 7 times and just rammed it down their throat. He then hit the hole and made a beautiful jumping lunge on his final run to ensure the victory.

I understand if Kuhn can't be an everydown back, but man, that was just beautiful bruising running. I see no reason we can't do that at least one other drive a game - just try to ram him down their throats.

Why not? I don't think he can take the punishment like "the bus" could and do it for 20 to 25 carries, but 15 ove rthe course of two drives a game? Sure.

[Cheesehead Craig]

On that last drive, let's not give all the praise to Kuhn. The OL finally had some good run blocking and frankly Kuhn had some good sized holes to run through. On 2 of those runs he wasn't even hit until he was 4-5 yds downfield.

[Scott Campbell]

On that last drive, let's not give all the praise to Kuhn. The OL finally had some good run blocking and frankly Kuhn had some good sized holes to run through. On 2 of those runs he wasn't even hit until he was 4-5 yds downfield.


The safeties were playing up to stop the run. And Kuhn and the OL kept moving the chains and running clock. It was a thing of beauty.

[Smidgeon]

Honestly, I'm not enamored with many of the "available" running backs. Starting experience doesn't mean a whole lot to me if a guy can't stay healthy or distinguish himself from the pack (Maroney, Maroney, Maroney).

With their short shelf life, running backs end up costing you for the miles earned on someone else's payroll. For someone who's had a starting role, they're usually overvalued. For someone really worth the trade, they're just too expensive. I would not want to give a 1-3 round pick for someone with less than 3 seasons' worth of current-level production left.

From what's been reported, TT has been stoned on at least two backs (Marshawn Lynch and Denver's Andre Brown). He's signed someone who was reported as one of the best practice backs and has another available in week 7. I'm not happy with Kuhn as our Option 1, but for 2 more weeks, it's okay. I don't think TT's not trying on that position.

I think there were some things Ted's sat too pat on (d-backs, o-backs, O-line coaching), but I think it's under the premise of not blowing up one part of the team to salvage another. Well, other than O-line coaching, which is a huge part of the running game.

That's McCarthy's hire.

[SkinBasket]

On that last drive, let's not give all the praise to Kuhn. The OL finally had some good run blocking and frankly Kuhn had some good sized holes to run through. On 2 of those runs he wasn't even hit until he was 4-5 yds downfield.

So.... are you fellas suggesting the O-line doesn't block as hard for a faster running back - like Jackson? Or was it coincidence that the line suddenly blocked better at the end of the game against a very fresh defense? Or are you full of poop?

[pbmax]

On that last drive, let's not give all the praise to Kuhn. The OL finally had some good run blocking and frankly Kuhn had some good sized holes to run through. On 2 of those runs he wasn't even hit until he was 4-5 yds downfield.

So.... are you fellas suggesting the O-line doesn't block as hard for a faster running back - like Jackson? Or was it coincidence that the line suddenly blocked better at the end of the game against a very fresh defense? Or are you full of poop?
They also seemed to run a different set of plays for Kuhn, I assume to play to his strengths. But it could very well be he simply ran better. The center of that line blocks well going straight forward. Colledge and Sitton looked great. Even Clifton got a key block on the run to the offense's left.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I'd rather go with the younger legs of Nance and Starks once he returns than spend important draft picks on someone who is washed up.

[denverYooper]

On that last drive, let's not give all the praise to Kuhn. The OL finally had some good run blocking and frankly Kuhn had some good sized holes to run through. On 2 of those runs he wasn't even hit until he was 4-5 yds downfield.

So.... are you fellas suggesting the O-line doesn't block as hard for a faster running back - like Jackson? Or was it coincidence that the line suddenly blocked better at the end of the game against a very fresh defense? Or are you full of poop?
They also seemed to run a different set of plays for Kuhn, I assume to play to his strengths. But it could very well be he simply ran better. The center of that line blocks well going straight forward. Colledge and Sitton looked great. Even Clifton got a key block on the run to the offense's left.

Korey Hall had a nice block also, on the game-icing run.

[Fritz]

McCarthy started the game with some running plays, and I thought they went well. Then he seemed to get away from the run - until the end of the game.

[Cheesehead Craig]

On that last drive, let's not give all the praise to Kuhn. The OL finally had some good run blocking and frankly Kuhn had some good sized holes to run through. On 2 of those runs he wasn't even hit until he was 4-5 yds downfield.

So.... are you fellas suggesting the O-line doesn't block as hard for a faster running back - like Jackson? Or was it coincidence that the line suddenly blocked better at the end of the game against a very fresh defense? Or are you full of poop?

As of 10 minutes ago I am no longer full of poop. There were 2 girls who wanted it in a cup.

I am suggesting that the OL actually did a very good job of run blocking at a time when the Lions knew they were going to run. I only wish they would run block like that all game long.

[retailguy]

Imagine we had a guy who was actually fast.

The line does ok at times, I see some decent holes out there -- imagine a real fucking gamebreaker out there.

Man, this team could be ridiculous. We aren't right now.

I disagree. The Packers are completely ridiculous right now.

Go back and read some of Justin Harrell's posts from a month ago. It'll cheer you up, and it's better than kool-aid. :wink:

I don't know who these guys are that played in the game yesterday, but THEY ARE NOT Justin Harrell's Packers. This I know. :P

[NewsBruin]

Honestly, I'm not enamored with many of the "available" running backs. Starting experience doesn't mean a whole lot to me if a guy can't stay healthy or distinguish himself from the pack (Maroney, Maroney, Maroney).

With their short shelf life, running backs end up costing you for the miles earned on someone else's payroll. For someone who's had a starting role, they're usually overvalued. For someone really worth the trade, they're just too expensive. I would not want to give a 1-3 round pick for someone with less than 3 seasons' worth of current-level production left.

From what's been reported, TT has been stoned on at least two backs (Marshawn Lynch and Denver's Andre Brown). He's signed someone who was reported as one of the best practice backs and has another available in week 7. I'm not happy with Kuhn as our Option 1, but for 2 more weeks, it's okay. I don't think TT's not trying on that position.

I think there were some things Ted's sat too pat on (d-backs, o-backs, O-line coaching), but I think it's under the premise of not blowing up one part of the team to salvage another. Well, other than O-line coaching, which is a huge part of the running game.

That's McCarthy's hire.

I hear that on the board, but ultimately, it's Ted's oversight. I hope he's not willing to wait until our players' development gets better all by itself. Maybe it starts with a "What's going on with the line, Mike?", and if he doesn't get improvement, it escalates to "It's either him, or it's you and him. Your choice."

Besides, the official NFL fall-on-your-sword flowchart is:
Position coach --> Co-ordinator --> Head Coach --> GM

No GM wants it to get to his level in the flowchart, and Ted probably doesn't want it to get to McCarthy's level. But ultimately, Ted has to answer to the president and shareholders why his corporation is not performing in all departments.

[NewsBruin]

So.... are you fellas suggesting the O-line doesn't block as hard for a faster running back - like Jackson? Or was it coincidence that the line suddenly blocked better at the end of the game against a very fresh defense? Or are you full of poop?

You know, it's really weird, but I swear I've seen Jets block better for LT than they do Shonn Greene (purely based on the size of the holes). I wonder if the Pack line get more psyched for some smash-mouth running play than they do a bounce-it-around play.

I also wonder why we can't do power-gaps and zone-blocking at the same time. We've got good personnel for both styles. Why does it have to be one or the other, or is that just what is assumed on the boards and in the press?

[woodbuck27]

Kuhn reminds me of Mike Alstott. He's a beast to bring down, and perfect for short yardage situations. 10 carries a game for Kuhn would be perfect.

He actually reminds me a bit of John Riggins, but I'm dating myself. He has deceptive speed and a little shake to him. I said it in the preseason, but I'll repeat it. If you didn't know Kuhn is a converted FB and Toby Gerhart was a second round pick, you'd say Kuhn looks a lot better than Gerhart. That might not be saying much, but I don't think he's too bad. That being said, I'm definitely up for getting a better RB in here--but mainly because Jackson has disappointed.

John Riggins. That's an optimistic comparison Harvey. :D

How much little 'of a little bit' of John Riggins does John Kuhn remind you of Harvey? John Riggins was a hell of a RB. If we could reincarnate and TT would sign him, as he was ... wouldn't you assess that our RB problems would be behind us.

We wouldn"t even need John Kuhn. :idea:

With all respect Harv Im not getting the comparison.

[woodbuck27]

So.... are you fellas suggesting the O-line doesn't block as hard for a faster running back - like Jackson? Or was it coincidence that the line suddenly blocked better at the end of the game against a very fresh defense? Or are you full of poop?

You know, it's really weird, but I swear I've seen Jets block better for LT than they do Shonn Greene (purely based on the size of the holes). I wonder if the Pack line get more psyched for some smash-mouth running play than they do a bounce-it-around play.

I also wonder why we can't do power-gaps and zone-blocking at the same time. We've got good personnel for both styles. Why does it have to be one or the other, or is that just what is assumed on the boards and in the press?

You make or bring up a valid point sir. it's the same as in the NHL. A team will perform better defensively when they are inspired by the clutch play of a goalie that can certainly back up a defensive lapse and make the huge saves!

Hypothesis:

If an NFL OL believes in the break away ability of a certain running back, then, won't that inspire that OL to dig in and do a better job of stopping the oppositions 'D' or get the job done of opening even a small hole for their RB to plunge through?

I believe that is a valid scenario. Not every RB can be a Barry Sanders and make his own holes and discover wide open space. No RB can ever hope to get there if he dances in place and waits too long to even squeeze through a small hole or be aggressive looking for those 5-6 yard runs that spell money in terms of owning the clock.

That's what the running game is about and that taking the pressure off the offenses passing game and keep the oppositions 'D' thinking, and thus exposing more options for our WCO.

GO PACK GO !

[SkinBasket]

On that last drive, let's not give all the praise to Kuhn. The OL finally had some good run blocking and frankly Kuhn had some good sized holes to run through. On 2 of those runs he wasn't even hit until he was 4-5 yds downfield.

So.... are you fellas suggesting the O-line doesn't block as hard for a faster running back - like Jackson? Or was it coincidence that the line suddenly blocked better at the end of the game against a very fresh defense? Or are you full of poop?

As of 10 minutes ago I am no longer full of poop. There were 2 girls who wanted it in a cup.

I am suggesting that the OL actually did a very good job of run blocking at a time when the Lions knew they were going to run. I only wish they would run block like that all game long.

So you don't feel that Kuhn might possibly be better at recognizing and hitting a hole than Jackson? That despite the limitations inherent to his race, he might possibly be better at gaining more yards per carry than his more athletic counterpart in Jackson?

It was simply an elderly offensive line that stepped up and blocked a thoroughly rested Detroit defense?

[SkinBasket]

I use my knowledge of a game I've played and watched since I was a kid. I guess some of you only watch Packer games which there is nothing wrong with but I'm a huge college and NFL fan. I'm not a college or NFL scout by any means but I do believe I have a pretty decent eye for talent. Kuhn has not shown me anything special except for effort and that can only go so far in the NFL when you don't have the talent to go along with it.

In other words in three games Hillis has put up Kuhn's career numbers. Now that might be a bit unfair since Kuhn has mainly played FB in his career but it is what it is. Hillis is faster, has much better hands, and has more moves you want from a running back. I told you to check him out on youtube because you obviously have never seen this guy play. You think just because Kuhn averages .3 yards a carry less then him that his is just as good? States don't tell the whole sorry buddy, thats why I told you go to check out some game film on him. If stats told the whole sorry then I guess Tony Romo is just as good as Aaron Rodgers since they put up simliar stats.

And yet, I recognized Hillis' potential a week before anyone else, because I looked at his statistics - his production, and realized, before I even knew he was white, that he would be an excellent fantasy back - because he gains yards.

You, meanwhile, can't even be bothered to set your roster for the week - despite your expert knowledge of the game.

:oops: :oops: :oops:

As partial used to say: "game, set, match, m$#$erf@cker!"

[Bossman641]

I use my knowledge of a game I've played and watched since I was a kid. I guess some of you only watch Packer games which there is nothing wrong with but I'm a huge college and NFL fan. I'm not a college or NFL scout by any means but I do believe I have a pretty decent eye for talent. Kuhn has not shown me anything special except for effort and that can only go so far in the NFL when you don't have the talent to go along with it.

In other words in three games Hillis has put up Kuhn's career numbers. Now that might be a bit unfair since Kuhn has mainly played FB in his career but it is what it is. Hillis is faster, has much better hands, and has more moves you want from a running back. I told you to check him out on youtube because you obviously have never seen this guy play. You think just because Kuhn averages .3 yards a carry less then him that his is just as good? States don't tell the whole sorry buddy, thats why I told you go to check out some game film on him. If stats told the whole sorry then I guess Tony Romo is just as good as Aaron Rodgers since they put up simliar stats.

And yet, I recognized Hillis' potential a week before anyone else, because I looked at his statistics - his production, and realized, before I even knew he was white, that he would be an excellent fantasy back - because he gains yards.

You, meanwhile, can't even be bothered to set your roster for the week - despite your expert knowledge of the game.

:oops: :oops: :oops:

As partial used to say: "game, set, match, m$#$erf@cker!"

To further quote Partial, does Kuuuuuuuuuhn have "it?"

I miss Partial

[Brandon494]

So exactly what has happen with the next Riggins?

[Scott Campbell]

So exactly what has happen with the next Riggins?


How bout the dummy that called him the next Christian Okoye?