McCarthy in "big" games

[Patler]

I have brought this up several times the last couple years. I like a lot about McCarthy, but there seems to be something lacking in how he prepares his teams for big games. Apart from play calling, game management, etc. that have been talked about in other threads, does he adequately prepare his team for what will happen?

It seems more often than not his teams just do not play well in big games. The two Viking games last year, the playoff game last year, etc. Not just because they lost. It seems the players have not handled the atmospheres of the situations real well. Dumb penalties in crucial situations (and/or lots of penalties), mental mistakes, poor clutch performance all seem to be the norm.

Even the playoff win three years ago started poorly, but at least they got it together eventually.

Getting a team to play its best when it needs to the most is a talent that is hard to explain. It's players having confidence in the coaching staff and in themselves. Some coaches seem to accomplish that all the time. I'm not sure McCarthy has that ability

[Joemailman]

The problem in my opinion hasn't been confidence, but composure. They've made mental mistakes in these games that they don't normally make. Some of this goes on the coaching staff, but your veteran leaders have to set the tone as well.

[ThunderDan]

I have brought this up several times the last couple years. I like a lot about McCarthy, but there seems to be something lacking in how he prepares his teams for big games. Apart from play calling, game management, etc. that have been talked about in other threads, does he adequately prepare his team for what will happen?

It seems more often than not his teams just do not play well in big games. The two Viking games last year, the playoff game last year, etc. Not just because they lost. It seems the players have not handled the atmospheres of the situations real well. Dumb penalties in crucial situations (and/or lots of penalties), mental mistakes, poor clutch performance all seem to be the norm.

Even the playoff win three years ago started poorly, but at least they got it together eventually.

Getting a team to play its best when it needs to the most is a talent that is hard to explain. It's players having confidence in the coaching staff and in themselves. Some coaches seem to accomplish that all the time. I'm not sure McCarthy has that ability

As an offset, I would say the Dallas and SF games last year were big games that we won and played well especially the Dallas game.

I think this year is different from a motivational standpoint from previous years. In 2010, I think we finally have the talent on the roster that we can beat anyone as long as we don't shoot ourselves in the foot. There is no need to get the players "foaming at the mouth" and play their greatest game ever to win.

We need to be consistant. We need controlled aggression. We don't need rage. We don't need 1 player making highlight reel plays over and over. (It would be nice to get that but it isn't needed)

[Patler]

The problem in my opinion hasn't been confidence, but composure. They've made mental mistakes in these games that they don't normally make. Some of this goes on the coaching staff, but your veteran leaders have to set the tone as well.

I think composure comes from confidence. That's why I talked about confidence, but I agree his teams have not shown good composure at times.

Does he make things too complicated? For years I was involved with a hockey team who had a coach that always got the most out of his players. His teams were not always the most talented, but in games that really mattered, they always put up a good fight. His approach to the game was probably a little more simple than a lot of other coaches. and I always felt that served him well in the sometimes chaotic atmosphere of big games. His players always handled it well, whether they eventually won or lost.

[Brandon494]

I don't know if I can put all the blame on MM because the players who were getting flagged were veterans and should be able to handle those type of road games.

[Patler]

As an offset, I would say the Dallas and SF games last year were big games that we won and played well especially the Dallas game.

I think this year is different from a motivational standpoint from previous years. In 2010, I think we finally have the talent on the roster that we can beat anyone as long as we don't shoot ourselves in the foot. There is no need to get the players "foaming at the mouth" and play their greatest game ever to win.

We need to be consistant. We need controlled aggression. We don't need rage. We don't need 1 player making highlight reel plays over and over. (It would be nice to get that but it isn't needed)

I agree, a few times he seems to have gotten the job done with his team, but other times they seem a bit overwhelmed by the situations at hand. Not suggesting he needs to get them "foaming at the mouth" or anything close to that. Player highs like that seldom last through the game. They are temporary at best.

There just seem to be a lot of possible victories left on the table. Too many in which they didn't do what was needed to win. Bad penalties, missed kicks, poor kick coverages, dropped passes, fumbles , interceptions, missed tackles, dropped interceptions have all cropped up at the worst times and, more importantly, have not been overcome. Monday had almost all of those except the thrown interception, I can't blame Rodgers on a hail mary.

Championship calibre teams do what is needed to win games. Too often the Packers don't do that.

[Patler]

I don't know if I can put all the blame on MM because the players who were getting flagged were veterans and should be able to handle those type of road games.

To be sure, the players are not blameless, but MM's teams have always been highly penalized. Not sure why. It's hard to separate what is the player's fault and what is the coaches based on the attitude developed around penalties.

[mraynrand]

My guess is that Stubby tightens up in big games and his team is tight as well. That's when you make a ton of mistakes. Rodgers looked pretty tight the first 1 1/2 games and seemed loose and in control for the Bears game. I think he was tight because of the season's expectations, and is loosening up with confidence due to his success and fine play. Look at Finley - we all probably think he's a little over the top, but his confidence looks like it's helping him play totally loose. On the other hand, Woodson looks totally nervous and uncertain. I would guess it's because he's compensating for the two rooks on his side of the ball. Confidence and playing loose. I think that's a concern for this team. I have no idea if Stubby can 'fix that.'

[Packers4Glory]

The problem in my opinion hasn't been confidence, but composure. They've made mental mistakes in these games that they don't normally make. Some of this goes on the coaching staff, but your veteran leaders have to set the tone as well.

Well, its a catch 22 as I see it. I agree, but the team largely has a lot of guys w/ not a lot of experience. When you constantly have the youngest or one of the youngest rosters year in and year out, you will have more mental mistakes in big games.

Plus some of the older guys aren't really "leaders" in the true sense of the word. On defense, is there a true leader personality? I see Mathews growing into it, but I don't look at anyone one guy out there and say he's for sure the leader of the D. Not Woodson. Not either Nick.

Offense you have Rodgers and Driver. solid there.

Special teams.... ???? nobody.

[3irty1]

I've never bought this argument. These guys are professionals, every game is a big game. From what I've seen in recent years the offense is hitting on most cylinders for big games. We had pretty gaudy production in both queens games and also against Arizona in the playoffs. IMO McCarthy is doing his part. At the professional level, the responsibility is at least a little bit on the players for their individual preparation.

[Scott Campbell]

IMO McCarthy is doing his part.


He's getting roasted on the front page of NFL.com.

http://www.nfl.com/

[Scott Campbell]

IMO McCarthy is doing his part.


He's getting roasted on the front page of NFL.com.

http://www.nfl.com/

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/catch_all/nfl_image/m_mccarthy_100929_CP.jpg

[HarveyWallbangers]

What qualifies as a big game?

Games vs. Vikings and Bears are big games. He's 9-8 in his career against those two teams. He's 1-2 in the playoffs, but I can't really put the playoff losses on McCarthy.

What's his record on Sunday and Monday night?

They did beat Dallas and Baltimore in what I thought were big games last year. He has a pretty solid road record--which I think is a sign of a good coach.

Honestly, I think McCarthy is a pretty good coach getting his team prepared (we're very seldom blown out in big games under McCarthy--unlike Sherman) and I think he's good with the play calling. His game management sucks at times, but that's happened in big games and not so big games. He's just not very good in that area.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

IMO McCarthy is doing his part.


He's getting roasted on the front page of NFL.com.

http://www.nfl.com/

As he should be. Even by deciding not to let them score, if he didn't blow that TO we would of had 40 seconds left left on the clock to try to get in field goal range to tie the game.

I'm not saying fire the guy b/c overall I think he is not a bad coach, but he needs to realize his mistakes. He has done this before.

[Patler]

What qualifies as a big game?

Games vs. Vikings and Bears are big games. He's 9-8 in his career against those two teams. He's 1-2 in the playoffs, but I can't really put the playoff losses on McCarthy.

What's his record on Sunday and Monday night?

They did beat Dallas and Baltimore in what I thought were big games last year. He has a pretty solid road record--which I think is a sign of a good coach.

Honestly, I think McCarthy is a pretty good coach getting his team prepared (we're very seldom blown out in big games under McCarthy--unlike Sherman) and I think he's good with the play calling. His game management sucks at times, but that's happened in big games and not so big games. He's just not very good in that area.

Well, I guess a big game can be anything you want it to be, but in my book it is not every game against the Bears or Vikings. When they are close to you in the standings it takes on more importance. When its like playing the Lions it is of lesser importance. When it is playing against Favre it is a big game for the staff, the players and the fans just because of the history.

It's more than jst piling up yards, or even scoring a lot of points. I want to see the team look confident, composed and in control of itself. I often do not see that, even when they win.

[Patler]

I've never bought this argument. These guys are professionals, every game is a big game. From what I've seen in recent years the offense is hitting on most cylinders for big games. We had pretty gaudy production in both queens games and also against Arizona in the playoffs. IMO McCarthy is doing his part. At the professional level, the responsibility is at least a little bit on the players for their individual preparation.

It's more than just the offense. Its more than just points and yards. They gave away opportunities to win that game in all phases, just like the Vikings did against NO.

[Patler]

The problem in my opinion hasn't been confidence, but composure. They've made mental mistakes in these games that they don't normally make. Some of this goes on the coaching staff, but your veteran leaders have to set the tone as well.

Well, its a catch 22 as I see it. I agree, but the team largely has a lot of guys w/ not a lot of experience. When you constantly have the youngest or one of the youngest rosters year in and year out, you will have more mental mistakes in big games.

Plus some of the older guys aren't really "leaders" in the true sense of the word. On defense, is there a true leader personality? I see Mathews growing into it, but I don't look at anyone one guy out there and say he's for sure the leader of the D. Not Woodson. Not either Nick.

Offense you have Rodgers and Driver. solid there.

Special teams.... ???? nobody.

Monday, due to injuries, they had some rookies in there. But by and large the starting lineups have a lot of starting experience. As I mentioned in another thread, last year their roster was the youngest in the league, but their starters had the fifth highest game starting experience in the NFC. There is plenty enough experience on the team for that not to be an excuse, in my opinion. Besides, 4 of the rookies and 2 of the 2nd year guys weren't even active for the game.

[Packers4Glory]

The problem in my opinion hasn't been confidence, but composure. They've made mental mistakes in these games that they don't normally make. Some of this goes on the coaching staff, but your veteran leaders have to set the tone as well.

Well, its a catch 22 as I see it. I agree, but the team largely has a lot of guys w/ not a lot of experience. When you constantly have the youngest or one of the youngest rosters year in and year out, you will have more mental mistakes in big games.

Plus some of the older guys aren't really "leaders" in the true sense of the word. On defense, is there a true leader personality? I see Mathews growing into it, but I don't look at anyone one guy out there and say he's for sure the leader of the D. Not Woodson. Not either Nick.

Offense you have Rodgers and Driver. solid there.

Special teams.... ???? nobody.

Monday, due to injuries, they had some rookies in there. But by and large the starting lineups have a lot of starting experience. As I mentioned in another thread, last year their roster was the youngest in the league, but their starters had the fifth highest game starting experience in the NFC. There is plenty enough experience on the team for that not to be an excuse, in my opinion. Besides, 4 of the rookies and 2 of the 2nd year guys weren't even active for the game.

OK. That being said. Who is the unquestioned leader on defense?

And really offensively I might change my mind because there are quite a few dumb ass penalties and nobody from the coaches to the players on either side of the ball seem to hold anyone accountable.

[Joemailman]

This team was in pretty much must-win mode the entire second half of last season, so it would be pretty hard to say they can't win big games considering they went 7-1. If there is a trend, it's that they don't play well in games in which there is a lot of media attention leading up to the game. Whether they get too fired up, or they're just nervous, they do seem to lose some of their composure in those games.

[MichiganPackerFan]

This team was in pretty much must-win mode the entire second half of last season, so it would be pretty hard to say they can't win big games considering they went 7-1. If there is a trend, it's that they don't play well in games in which there is a lot of media attention leading up to the game. Whether they get too fired up, or they're just nervous, they do seem to lose some of their composure in those games.

That's a really good point.

[denverYooper]

The problem in my opinion hasn't been confidence, but composure. They've made mental mistakes in these games that they don't normally make. Some of this goes on the coaching staff, but your veteran leaders have to set the tone as well.

Well, its a catch 22 as I see it. I agree, but the team largely has a lot of guys w/ not a lot of experience. When you constantly have the youngest or one of the youngest rosters year in and year out, you will have more mental mistakes in big games.

Plus some of the older guys aren't really "leaders" in the true sense of the word. On defense, is there a true leader personality? I see Mathews growing into it, but I don't look at anyone one guy out there and say he's for sure the leader of the D. Not Woodson. Not either Nick.

Offense you have Rodgers and Driver. solid there.

Special teams.... ???? nobody.

I don't buy the inexperience argument any more. It seems to me that some of our vets are making the majority of key mistakes.

WRT to penalties, here's what our Packers produced:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_fd9p7rXoxi0/TKNjXXpJEsI/AAAAAAAAAHQ/wr_c4eDTGD4/s400/092710_Packer_Penalties.gif

There are 14 of 19 penalties on that list committed by guys with 5 or more years of experience. (Chillar, Clifton, Collins, Driver, Martin, Rodgers, Tauscher, Woodson). Hard to fault youth on most of those. Especially the hold on Tauscher that wound up costing a TD.

Only 2 penalties were called on rookies -- Zombo (Roughing) and Burnett (DPI) -- and both of those were 50/50, they were legit but are not always called. Zombo was about 4 inches from making a huge play there and that was not a mental mistake but rather an unfortunate adherence to the laws of physics on his part. Also I thought Burnett was tangled up with the receiver in coming back to an underthrown ball. Don't know what more/less he could have done because he had good coverage.

WRT special teams, that is often where you'll see younger guys on most teams. Quarless, a rookie, was identified by Cristl and Baranczyk in the GBPG as "jogging" on the Hester return while Martin was held and Chillar was blocked out of the play so I'll give you the inexperience argument there. Although if he truly was loafing it like they say he has a bigger issue than inexperience.

Masthay is a rookie too and he had one crapper of a punt, but 2 pretty good ones. You can argue that he should have kicked away from Hester, but boy he had a couple of boomers that drove the PR back on 2 of those punts and the coverage did not get the job done. The line drive was totally on him at a bad time and can also be chalked up to inexperience.

Even with some of the younger guys finding a roster spot on Teams, you still have some vets -- Hawk, Chillar, and Donald Lee. Martin, who many identify as a key special teamer, has 5 years, had one penalty that cost them a return. Bush also has 5 years and didn't get any penalties. Bishop, at 4 years experience cost us a good bit of field position with his offsides. It was a 5 yard infraction but the first kick was covered well and the real cost ended up being something like 20 yards of field position. So there you have 2 guys with 4+ years experience with penalties on special teams.

James Jones has 4 years now on the team and he has been victimized by the Bears punching the ball out in the past. Jeez, you would think he'd have vivid memories of that happening in the past. I love the guy's physicality at times but he gets lax on ball security.

I don't know what you do. You can't have a full team of savvy vets on Offense, Defense, and ST. I believe that most of the "mental mistakes" were committed by our core vets. Some of our younger guys, IMHO, played BETTER than the vets, with the exception of Quarless. And that is the truly frustrating part. We had key mistakes from core guys at bad times. Guys who should be playing lights out because they've been in enough big games by now are dropping the ball. Literally!

[Spaulding]

Already brought up but discipline in my eyes falls although somewhat on McCarthy for keeping players accountable, most of the mistakes were made by veterans and thus it falls on those players.

What I gripe most about was the wasted challenge, at no point did it appear the Bears player stepped out and thus a lost timeout which was crucial at the end. I understand the impact of the play but the reply was pretty clear.

The other thing I don't understand was why he didn't allow the Bears (specifically Forte on one of his runs) to score quickly and thus given Rodgers a chance to tie up the game.

Much better odds of that than hoping Gould misses a chip shot.

[Spaulding]

Sorry for the double post, looks like Leaper brought up the same points in an earlier thread.

[MichiganPackerFan]

... Zombo was about 4 inches from making a huge play there and that was not a mental mistake but rather an unfortunate adherence to the laws of physics on his part.

This is great!!!

[Smidgeon]

Already brought up but discipline in my eyes falls although somewhat on McCarthy for keeping players accountable, most of the mistakes were made by veterans and thus it falls on those players.

What I gripe most about was the wasted challenge, at no point did it appear the Bears player stepped out and thus a lost timeout which was crucial at the end. I understand the impact of the play but the reply was pretty clear.

The other thing I don't understand was why he didn't allow the Bears (specifically Forte on one of his runs) to score quickly and thus given Rodgers a chance to tie up the game.

Much better odds of that than hoping Gould misses a chip shot.

I've said this in another thread, but when I saw that replay, I thought Jennings had stepped out of bounds (I was primarily watching the ball to see if it had nudged the line and only caught the foot on the sideline at the last moment out of the side of my eye). It ended up being a Packers' foot, but I thought it could have been. It wasn't until the started reshowing it over and over during the challenge that it was obvious.

Yeah, the challenge ended up being "wasted" because the Packers' initial reaction (and mine) was wrong, but I can't blame him for taking that challenge.

[superfan]

What's his record on Sunday and Monday night?

McCarthy's Monday night results, apologies on the formatting:



Rk Tm Year Date Opp W# G# Day Result
1 GNB 2010 2010-09-27 @ CHI 3 3 Mon L 17-20
2 GNB 2009 2009-12-07 BAL 13 12 Mon W 27-14
3 GNB 2009 2009-10-05 @ MIN 4 4 Mon L 23-30
4 GNB 2008 2008-12-22 @ CHI 16 15 Mon L 17-20
5 GNB 2008 2008-11-24 @ NOR 12 11 Mon L 29-51
6 GNB 2008 2008-09-08 MIN 1 1 Mon W 24-19
7 GNB 2007 2007-10-29 @ DEN 8 7 Mon W 19-13
8 GNB 2006 2006-11-27 @ SEA 12 11 Mon L 24-34
9 GNB 2006 2006-10-02 @ PHI 4 4 Mon L 9-31


3-6 overall, and only 1-4 over his last 5. 2-0 at home, 1-6 on the road at some traditionally difficult places to win - Philly, Seattle, Denver, New Orleans, Chicago, Minnesota.

Too lazy to look up his Sunday night record.

[superfan]

Really nice post, Yooper.

Perhaps this is the problem:


There are 14 of 19 penalties on that list committed by guys with 5 or more years of experience.

As we can see from the last few seasons, these players are very experienced - at drawing flags. The younger players haven't yet established themselves as reliable penalty inducing machines.

[Smidgeon]

Really nice post, Yooper.

Perhaps this is the problem:


There are 14 of 19 penalties on that list committed by guys with 5 or more years of experience.

As we can see from the last few seasons, these players are very experienced - at drawing flags. The younger players haven't yet established themselves as reliable penalty inducing machines.

And luckily none of them have the penchant of Grabby McSmurf, aka Highway 28...

[Fritz]

The issue seems to be a lack of discipline. The flags everywhere are an indication of this. Are they doing or trying to do too much? Does McCarthy try to complicate game plans too much? Or ask people to do more?

I don't know. They played superbly defensively against Dallas and Baltimore last year. But the penalties - argh!

[pbmax]

One reason for the offensive penalties would be lack of performance or production. Clifton and Tauscher were not ready (or able) to perform at an adequate level Monday. Same with Colledge's holding call. They were beaten and I don't think Campen can be blamed for the tackle's problems. Unless he has failed to prepare the backups to take their place.

I keep reading that Clifton is looking healthier, but that has to be some kind of snow job. His knee isn't getting better practicing on it more.

However, McCarthy and Philbin did crack the whip prior to Tampa and demand more practice from the banged up O lineman and (despite Tampa) they each commented on the fact that they thought this helped them improve later in the season. M3 has been making the same noise about holding positions open for players this week, which is how Zombo got anointed starter.

But one sure way to get penalties is to get beaten like a drum play after play.

[swede]

...M3 has been making the same noise about holding positions open for players this week, which is how Zombo got anointed starter.


It would be nice if he would hold some coaching positions open.

[bobblehead]

At count of the chart I find 7 penalties the Packers committed as unquestionably accurate calls that were relevant. Things like the 2 false starts on Tausch didn't matter which is why he was anticipating, as well as the final penalty for illegal forward pass. 9 more were subjective penalties of which a couple I don't recall might have been blatant. One should have been called on the defense (the false start where the D jumped off and we reacted).

So basically we were flagged 9 times on subjective calls. I couldn't find the breakdown on bears penalties, but obviously they were not flagged 9 times on subjective calls.