Playcalling Experts

[Smidgeon]

I've been hearing a lot of complaining about the playcalling around here lately. As such, I'm curious about who really knows anything about playcalling.

List your playcalling experience here. If you've coached in the NFL or with a successful college program, been a coordinator in the NFL or with a successful college program, or befriended someone who was successful at playcalling and learned at the feet of this person, please put it here so I will believe what you say.

Otherwise, I'll know that when you complain about play-calling, I'll just assume you have no idea what you're talking about and are complaining about results (i.e. execution of a play) instead of the play itself.

Thank you.

[Zool]

If it doesn't work its a bad call. If it does work he just got lucky. Seems simple enough.

[sharpe1027]

While there is something to your point, there would be virtually no purpose to this forum if we all needed to be experts with significant experience on every subject we discuss. :lol:

Maybe anyone complaining could try to present a more constructive analysis of specific reasons that the play calling is suspect and then we can all comment.

[imscott72]

I personally don't have a problem with the play calling. The goal is to keep the defense guessing on what you're going to do. Common sense says you can't get repetitive or defenses will know what's coming, especially with film and all the things available to opponents these days. They study your offense practically the whole week hoping to find an edge, so clearly you have to mix it up. Not every play is going to work every time, but that doesn't make it a bad choice. I think MM is good at attacking defense's weaknesses. The Redskin's came in with the 31st pass defense, so with our strong passing attack it only makes sense to attack that. Of course you have to throw in some running plays and I thought MM did a good job of doing that.

[Smidgeon]

While there is something to your point, there would be virtually no purpose to this forum if we all needed to be experts with significant experience on every subject we discuss. :lol:

Maybe anyone complaining could try to present a more constructive analysis of specific reasons that the play calling is suspect and then we can all comment.

Agreed. But that wouldn't really satisfy the "must have someone to vilify" crowd. :mrgreen:

[sheepshead]

I've been hearing a lot of complaining about the playcalling around here lately. As such, I'm curious about who really knows anything about playcalling.

List your playcalling experience here. If you've coached in the NFL or with a successful college program, been a coordinator in the NFL or with a successful college program, or befriended someone who was successful at playcalling and learned at the feet of this person, please put it here so I will believe what you say.

Otherwise, I'll know that when you complain about play-calling, I'll just assume you have no idea what you're talking about and are complaining about results (i.e. execution of a play) instead of the play itself.

Thank you.

HAAAAAAAAAA kinda like all the TT bashing. List your football general manager experience. Quash this, quash the TT bashing and you might as well fold up the forums and go home.

[Little Whiskey]

While there is something to your point, there would be virtually no purpose to this forum if we all needed to be experts with significant experience on every subject we discuss. :lol:

Maybe anyone complaining could try to present a more constructive analysis of specific reasons that the play calling is suspect and then we can all comment.

+1

If i met any of those qualifications, it would be illegal for me to post in this forum. .....at least 30minutes before kick off. ask TO

i do however, stay at a holiday inn express. and i'm pretty good at Madden. is that good enough?

[Smidgeon]

While there is something to your point, there would be virtually no purpose to this forum if we all needed to be experts with significant experience on every subject we discuss. :lol:

Maybe anyone complaining could try to present a more constructive analysis of specific reasons that the play calling is suspect and then we can all comment.

+1

If i met any of those qualifications, it would be illegal for me to post in this forum. .....at least 30minutes before kick off. ask TO

i do however, stay at a holiday inn express. and i'm pretty good at Madden. is that good enough?

:) funny stuff.

[MichiganPackerFan]

I was about to say, I've played Madden a couple of times on the computer. RUN THE DAMN BALL. We lost to the Giants in the NFC championship a couple years back, simply because MM wouldn't run the ball. A defense might as well send all 11 back into coverage on us.

[Little Whiskey]

I've played Madden A defense might as well send all 11 back into coverage on us.

I've never seen that defense called in all the years that I've played madden. is it effective?

[MichiganPackerFan]

I've played Madden A defense might as well send all 11 back into coverage on us.

I've never seen that defense called in all the years that I've played madden. is it effective?

Don't know, i've never played anyone who never ran the ball. It sounds good in theory though. Although i guess you probably do need some pass rush.

[Joemailman]

I used to be pretty good at NFL Monday Night Talking Football.

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/6/4/9/3/7/9/webimg/298586550_o.jpg

[Smidgeon]

I've played Madden A defense might as well send all 11 back into coverage on us.

I've never seen that defense called in all the years that I've played madden. is it effective?

I've played that defense. Play a 3-4 quarter zone defense, put the four DBs in long quarters, the four LBs in short quarters, the two DEs in flat zones, and the NT in short zone/QB spy.

Works pretty well against a 2 minute offense, but the computer always completes passes that were covered...

[Little Whiskey]

I've played Madden A defense might as well send all 11 back into coverage on us.

I've never seen that defense called in all the years that I've played madden. is it effective?

I've played that defense. Play a 3-4 quarter zone defense, put the four DBs in long quarters, the four LBs in short quarters, the two DEs in flat zones, and the NT in short zone/QB spy.

Works pretty well against a 2 minute offense, but the computer always completes passes that were covered...

is it listed under the Anti-Packer defense?

[Smidgeon]

I've played Madden A defense might as well send all 11 back into coverage on us.

I've never seen that defense called in all the years that I've played madden. is it effective?

I've played that defense. Play a 3-4 quarter zone defense, put the four DBs in long quarters, the four LBs in short quarters, the two DEs in flat zones, and the NT in short zone/QB spy.

Works pretty well against a 2 minute offense, but the computer always completes passes that were covered...

is it listed under the Anti-Packer defense?

Unfortunately, I don't have a new game console, just my PC. So I still play Madden 08. So the anti-Packers defense didn't quite work there.

[mraynrand]

Spit right jet, cut with Y motion, hut, hut - SHIT illegal motion!!! (See I can call plays for McCarthy!)

http://media.hamptonroads.com/images/news/2006/06jun/football440x251.jpg

[Bretsky]

Ya.......has anybody been a Professional GM in here ?

If you haven't when you have opinions it's obvious you should be ignored on personnell moves.

And since I've only coached at the high school level, I am not qualified to offer any analytical views about the game so you can put me on permanant ignore.

[mraynrand]

Ya.......has anybody been a Professional GM in here ?

If you haven't when you have opinions it's obvious you should be ignored on personnell moves.

And since I've only coached at the high school level, I am not qualified to offer any analytical views about the game so you can put me on permanant ignore.

Wah? Did somebody say something?

[sharpe1027]

There is a permanent ignore button?!!? That must explain why I get so few responses. :twisted:

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

lol what a bad thread. What the hell is the point of a forum then? You don't have to be an "expert" to give your opinion. There are many not so smart people who have great jobs and many intelligent people who don’t even have a job.

Btw, I’m the head coach for Texas Tech.

[sheepshead]

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e102/heymike0308/57191791.jpg

[Freak Out]

Homer knows best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEjI7_BKU9s&NR=1

[Patler]

Ya.......has anybody been a Professional GM in here ?


Does the sport matter?? :lol:

[CaptainKickass]

I've played Madden A defense might as well send all 11 back into coverage on us.

I've never seen that defense called in all the years that I've played madden. is it effective?

I've played that defense. Play a 3-4 quarter zone defense, put the four DBs in long quarters, the four LBs in short quarters, the two DEs in flat zones, and the NT in short zone/QB spy.

Works pretty well against a 2 minute offense, but the computer always completes passes that were covered...

is it listed under the Anti-Packer defense?

Unfortunately, I don't have a new game console, just my PC. So I still play Madden 08. So the anti-Packers defense didn't quite work there.

I play my bro in madden frequently. And - I am actually worse than McCarthy when it comes to not running the football. He actually has figured out basically that exact defense but he'll do it from different personnel groups and formations. It actually works pretty well against me in that scenario. The way to get completions on it is to make sure you use the pump fake before delivering the throw. I've played games with zero rushing attempts. Although with a "chuck it all the time" strategy - you'd be wise to take off with the QB on occasion. Rogers has wheels in Madden.

[mission]

Never been an NFL coach but I've coached HS QBs at a national QB school/camp. :D

[BobDobbs]

If I've never been a porn star am I still allowed to have sex?

[MJZiggy]

If I've never been a porn star am I still allowed to have sex?

Yes, but you're not allowed to criticize anyone's technique or position. :oops:

[Kiwon]

If I've never been a porn star am I still allowed to have sex?

Yes, but you're not allowed to criticize anyone's technique or position. :oops:

And your PR pals get half off any of your DVDs :)

[MichiganPackerFan]

If I've never been a porn star am I still allowed to have sex?

I guess.. If you're willing to pay for it.

[bobblehead]

I've been hearing a lot of complaining about the playcalling around here lately. As such, I'm curious about who really knows anything about playcalling.

List your playcalling experience here. If you've coached in the NFL or with a successful college program, been a coordinator in the NFL or with a successful college program, or befriended someone who was successful at playcalling and learned at the feet of this person, please put it here so I will believe what you say.

Otherwise, I'll know that when you complain about play-calling, I'll just assume you have no idea what you're talking about and are complaining about results (i.e. execution of a play) instead of the play itself.

Thank you.

Next time you make any point about anything in general please list your expertise in said area otherwise I will know you have no idea what you are talking about and are complaining about results.

As a matter of fact, since you are NOT an expert on playcalling you have no grounds to question anyone elses stance or opinion as it could just as likely be correct as incorrect....you should simply remain silent unless you in fact are an expert.

Ok, that being said, I think calling 13 running plays in a tight game where you have run successfully is bad playcalling....but hey, what do I know.

[Smidgeon]

I've been hearing a lot of complaining about the playcalling around here lately. As such, I'm curious about who really knows anything about playcalling.

List your playcalling experience here. If you've coached in the NFL or with a successful college program, been a coordinator in the NFL or with a successful college program, or befriended someone who was successful at playcalling and learned at the feet of this person, please put it here so I will believe what you say.

Otherwise, I'll know that when you complain about play-calling, I'll just assume you have no idea what you're talking about and are complaining about results (i.e. execution of a play) instead of the play itself.

Thank you.

Next time you make any point about anything in general please list your expertise in said area otherwise I will know you have no idea what you are talking about and are complaining about results.

As a matter of fact, since you are NOT an expert on playcalling you have no grounds to question anyone elses stance or opinion as it could just as likely be correct as incorrect....you should simply remain silent unless you in fact are an expert.

Ok, that being said, I think calling 13 running plays in a tight game where you have run successfully is bad playcalling....but hey, what do I know.

Apparantly nothing because I haven't said anything about what I think of the playcalling one way or the other. Just that there seem to be a lot of unqualified people making absolute statements. People aren't making "It's my opinion that..." statements; they're making "It's a fact that..." statements without room for discussion.

As for my expertise on that opinion, I read the dictionary and know what the difference between "opinion" and "fact" is.

[mraynrand]

It's my opinion that this thread blows

[MadtownPacker]

If I've never been a porn star am I still allowed to have sex?Hahaha, best one yet man!

[woodbuck27]

lol what a bad thread. What the hell is the point of a forum then? You don't have to be an "expert" to give your opinion. There are many not so smart people who have great jobs and many intelligent people who don’t even have a job.

Btw, I’m the head coach for Texas Tech.

How are you fellas doin this season?

[MadtownPacker]

Apparantly nothing because I haven't said anything about what I think of the playcalling one way or the other. Just that there seem to be a lot of unqualified people making absolute statements. People aren't making "It's my opinion that..." statements; they're making "It's a fact that..." statements without room for discussion.

As for my expertise on that opinion, I read the dictionary and know what the difference between "opinion" and "fact" is.I think Bobble is being a smartazz but I agree, what are your qualification? Just curious since you brought it up. I usually dont call peeps out on a subject unless I got some ammo but really I aint got shit just my opinion.

[MadtownPacker]

It's my opinion that this thread blowsI defer to you on this topic as you are an expert on blowing.

[Smidgeon]

Apparantly nothing because I haven't said anything about what I think of the playcalling one way or the other. Just that there seem to be a lot of unqualified people making absolute statements. People aren't making "It's my opinion that..." statements; they're making "It's a fact that..." statements without room for discussion.

As for my expertise on that opinion, I read the dictionary and know what the difference between "opinion" and "fact" is.I think Bobble is being a smartazz but I agree, what are your qualification? Just curious since you brought it up. I usually dont call peeps out on a subject unless I got some ammo but really I aint got shit just my opinion.

I don't have any expertise on playcalling. And I don't think anyone else does either. And that's my point.

I think it's all opinion, and like I've heard it said in a myriad of places: if a play works, it must've been a good play call. If a play didn't work, it either came down to poor execution or a poor play call. How do we know it's a poor play call when the team is suffering from a bad case of the drops, lost a reliable RB for the season, are still in the Top 10 in scoring, still have a QB with a rating over 90 despite getting clobbered by an inconsistent O-line, have a rushing attack with a per attempt gain in the Top 10, a TE that was gashing opponents before getting injured, etc, etc.

I don't think that anyone--unless they really have studied this stuff--can say if something was bad play calling versus poor execution. I'd simply like to hear more reasoning as to why something's bad playcalling. I'd love to learn more about what makes good playcalling. And to me, saying "it just is" or "I've never liked it" doesn't make me any more inclined to believe that statement. That's a logical fallacy called "petitio principii", or more commonly known as "begging the question".

[MadtownPacker]

I don't have any expertise on playcalling. And I don't think anyone else does either. And that's my point.I would disagree. I am aware off several posters here who played college ball so I think that is considered expertise.

Your point is that a bunch of clueless dipshits are discussing football here? I could have told you that the day you signed up.

[mraynrand]

It's my opinion that this thread blowsI defer to you on this topic as you are an expert on blowing.

You defer? Figures: that's what pussies do

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=14117&start=7180

[Fritz]

I am a former NFL head coach masquerading as a fan.

[Little Whiskey]

People aren't making "It's my opinion that..." statements;



this just goes without saying. similarly i don't post, "I have a beer in my hand while i type this" because it goes without saying. just like Mad doesn't post "that some white guy is going to kick his ass if he finds out he's playing on the computer instead of cutting the grass." it just goes without saying. a known. absolutes that we all know to be fact. whenever someone posts anything always assume its their opinion.

[MadtownPacker]

It's my opinion that this thread blowsI defer to you on this topic as you are an expert on blowing.

You defer? Figures: that's what pussies do

http://www.packerrats.com/ratchat/viewtopic.php?t=14117&start=7180Shit, got me there cuz that guy is right. Trust me, it's a fact. :lol:

[Smidgeon]

I don't have any expertise on playcalling. And I don't think anyone else does either. And that's my point.I would disagree. I am aware off several posters here who played college ball so I think that is considered expertise.

Your point is that a bunch of clueless dipshits are discussing football here? I could have told you that the day you signed up.

I definitely agree that it's a level of expertise, and I think it's pretty easy to tell who knows what they're talking about (or at the very least, who presents a compelling argument). I try to learn as much as I can from them but just get frustrated when there's a lot of narrow-minded opinions being stated as fact.

[channtheman]

People aren't making "It's my opinion that..." statements;



this just goes without saying. similarly i don't post, "I have a beer in my hand while i type this" because it goes without saying. just like Mad doesn't post "that some white guy is going to kick his ass if he finds out he's playing on the computer instead of cutting the grass." it just goes without saying. a known. absolutes that we all know to be fact. whenever someone posts anything always assume its their opinion.

This.

Equally I hate when someone responds to your post (on any forum) and simply says "In your opinion." Uhhh, no shit sherlock, you think I was claiming that it was YOUR opinion?

[channtheman]

I don't have any expertise on playcalling. And I don't think anyone else does either. And that's my point.I would disagree. I am aware off several posters here who played college ball so I think that is considered expertise.

Your point is that a bunch of clueless dipshits are discussing football here? I could have told you that the day you signed up.

I definitely agree that it's a level of expertise, and I think it's pretty easy to tell who knows what they're talking about (or at the very least, who presents a compelling argument). I try to learn as much as I can from them but just get frustrated when there's a lot of narrow-minded opinions being stated as fact.

I'm not sure I've read the posts you are talking about that are presenting something as fact. If someone says "MM is an idiot and his playcalling sucks," I think it's pretty clear that that is just his opinion, and he is not stating it as fact.

[Guiness]

"Some big-boobed hoes have morals and souls"

- Jenn Sterger

I'm so torn in knowing whether or not to believe that's an actual quote.

[hoosier]

People aren't making "It's my opinion that..." statements;



this just goes without saying. similarly i don't post, "I have a beer in my hand while i type this" because it goes without saying. just like Mad doesn't post "that some white guy is going to kick his ass if he finds out he's playing on the computer instead of cutting the grass." it just goes without saying. a known. absolutes that we all know to be fact. whenever someone posts anything always assume its their opinion.

Is this a fact or just your opinion? :lol:

[hoosier]

"Some big-boobed hoes have morals and souls"

- Jenn Sterger

I'm so torn in knowing whether or not to believe that's an actual quote.

I think she really said "morels and soles." Cuz big-boobed hoes gotta eat and walk too.

[mraynrand]

"Some big-boobed hoes have morals and souls"

- Jenn Sterger

I'm so torn in knowing whether or not to believe that's an actual quote.

I think she really said "morels and soles." Cuz big-boobed hoes gotta eat and walk too.

It's 'Filet of sole!' - do we have to explain everything?

[ND72]

Well...every year I've coached football I think I've dropped lower on the pole. My first 4 years of coaching I was the Varsity Offensive Coordinator in Winona, MN. I was the the JV Defensive Coordinator in Markesan, then Freshman Offensive Coordinator in Berlin. I was the JV Defensive Coordinator for 2 years in Adams-Friendship, and now I'm the 7th Grade Coach in Prairie du Chien....next year, Professional Womens League!

[ND72]

I've been hearing a lot of complaining about the playcalling around here lately. As such, I'm curious about who really knows anything about playcalling.

List your playcalling experience here. If you've coached in the NFL or with a successful college program, been a coordinator in the NFL or with a successful college program, or befriended someone who was successful at playcalling and learned at the feet of this person, please put it here so I will believe what you say.

Otherwise, I'll know that when you complain about play-calling, I'll just assume you have no idea what you're talking about and are complaining about results (i.e. execution of a play) instead of the play itself.

Thank you.

HAAAAAAAAAA kinda like all the TT bashing. List your football general manager experience. Quash this, quash the TT bashing and you might as well fold up the forums and go home.

I play Madden.

[Little Whiskey]

Well...every year I've coached football I think I've dropped lower on the pole. My first 4 years of coaching I was the Varsity Offensive Coordinator in Winona, MN. I was the the JV Defensive Coordinator in Markesan, then Freshman Offensive Coordinator in Berlin. I was the JV Defensive Coordinator for 2 years in Adams-Friendship, and now I'm the 7th Grade Coach in Prairie du Chien....next year, Professional Womens League!

i used to work for a company based in Winona. (it won't take you long to guess) they would send us there for week long trainings. you can get in a lot of trouble in a college town. love the drink specials!!

[Bretsky]

If I've never been a porn star am I still allowed to have sex?


As long as your acknowledge to your other that you are not qualified :lol:

[Bretsky]

I am a former NFL head coach masquerading as a fan.


You must have been Rich Kotite or Wayne Fontes :lol: :wink:

[hoosier]

Well...every year I've coached football I think I've dropped lower on the pole. My first 4 years of coaching I was the Varsity Offensive Coordinator in Winona, MN. I was the the JV Defensive Coordinator in Markesan, then Freshman Offensive Coordinator in Berlin. I was the JV Defensive Coordinator for 2 years in Adams-Friendship, and now I'm the 7th Grade Coach in Prairie du Chien....next year, Professional Womens League!

Your name wouldn't be James Campen Jr. would it?

[ND72]

Well...every year I've coached football I think I've dropped lower on the pole. My first 4 years of coaching I was the Varsity Offensive Coordinator in Winona, MN. I was the the JV Defensive Coordinator in Markesan, then Freshman Offensive Coordinator in Berlin. I was the JV Defensive Coordinator for 2 years in Adams-Friendship, and now I'm the 7th Grade Coach in Prairie du Chien....next year, Professional Womens League!

Your name wouldn't be James Campen Jr. would it?


Ouch....I've sent many kids playing college ball, I think I've done my job well.

[ND72]

Well...every year I've coached football I think I've dropped lower on the pole. My first 4 years of coaching I was the Varsity Offensive Coordinator in Winona, MN. I was the the JV Defensive Coordinator in Markesan, then Freshman Offensive Coordinator in Berlin. I was the JV Defensive Coordinator for 2 years in Adams-Friendship, and now I'm the 7th Grade Coach in Prairie du Chien....next year, Professional Womens League!

i used to work for a company based in Winona. (it won't take you long to guess) they would send us there for week long trainings. you can get in a lot of trouble in a college town. love the drink specials!!


FASTENAL! HA! I used to bartend, but across the river, we had many fastenal gentleman visit our club, about 4-Mile down the road.

[woodbuck27]

If I've never been a porn star am I still allowed to have sex?

I guess.. If you're willing to pay for it.

and take it off the street. No phone calls. :)

Best to watch or 'just' play sports. Especially if the pay is really good.

PACKERS!

[woodbuck27]

"Some big-boobed hoes have morals and souls"

- Jenn Sterger

I'm so torn in knowing whether or not to believe that's an actual quote.

I think she really said "morels and soles." Cuz big-boobed hoes gotta eat and walk too.

and they have kids to feed and clothe. Suppport 'some' ...working mothers.

[Fritz]

I am a former NFL head coach masquerading as a fan.


You must have been Rich Kotite or Wayne Fontes :lol: :wink:

There are a lot of iggles fans who would say that Rich Kotite was not an NFL head coach.

And Wayne Fontes was a fan masquerading as an NFL head coach.

[mraynrand]

I am a former NFL head coach masquerading as a fan.


You must have been Rich Kotite or Wayne Fontes :lol: :wink:

There are a lot of iggles fans who would say that Rich Kotite was not an NFL head coach.

And Wayne Fontes was a fan masquerading as an NFL head coach.

Yabba Dabba Doo!

[Fritz]

Funniest part about that is that he's been the most successful coach they've had since Joe Schmidt.

[bobblehead]

Apparantly nothing because I haven't said anything about what I think of the playcalling one way or the other. Just that there seem to be a lot of unqualified people making absolute statements. People aren't making "It's my opinion that..." statements; they're making "It's a fact that..." statements without room for discussion.

As for my expertise on that opinion, I read the dictionary and know what the difference between "opinion" and "fact" is.I think Bobble is being a smartazz but I agree, what are your qualification? Just curious since you brought it up. I usually dont call peeps out on a subject unless I got some ammo but really I aint got shit just my opinion.

I don't have any expertise on playcalling. And I don't think anyone else does either. And that's my point.


and that is my point. If you have no expertise, how would you have any clue if anyone else does or not. How would you have any basis to criticize their stated opinions or facts? You have none, and as such your entire opening post is pure hypocrisy.

[bobblehead]

Apparantly nothing because I haven't said anything about what I think of the playcalling one way or the other. Just that there seem to be a lot of unqualified people making absolute statements. People aren't making "It's my opinion that..." statements; they're making "It's a fact that..." statements without room for discussion.

As for my expertise on that opinion, I read the dictionary and know what the difference between "opinion" and "fact" is.I think Bobble is being a smartazz but I agree, what are your qualification? Just curious since you brought it up. I usually dont call peeps out on a subject unless I got some ammo but really I aint got shit just my opinion.

I'd simply like to hear more reasoning as to why something's bad playcalling.

As I have explained many times (and I PLAYED OL at college level) when you fail to call running plays the DLine can stop wasting time checking their run queues. They simply pin back the ears and go after the QB like rabid dogs. That in turn puts the OL at a HUGE disadvantage and generally gets your QB HIT!!

Furthermore, run plays wear down a defensive lineman (he is on the defensive) whereas pass plays wear down an offensive lineman (he is on the defensive). The guy doing the reacting is always at a big disadvantage to the guy proacting.

Is it a coincidence that this team has trouble finishing games?? I think not, partly due to playcalling.....and as you requested I have given you a very good explanation (which I have given on this board many times).

[denverYooper]

Apparantly nothing because I haven't said anything about what I think of the playcalling one way or the other. Just that there seem to be a lot of unqualified people making absolute statements. People aren't making "It's my opinion that..." statements; they're making "It's a fact that..." statements without room for discussion.

As for my expertise on that opinion, I read the dictionary and know what the difference between "opinion" and "fact" is.I think Bobble is being a smartazz but I agree, what are your qualification? Just curious since you brought it up. I usually dont call peeps out on a subject unless I got some ammo but really I aint got shit just my opinion.

I'd simply like to hear more reasoning as to why something's bad playcalling.

As I have explained many times (and I PLAYED OL at college level) when you fail to call running plays the DLine can stop wasting time checking their run queues. They simply pin back the ears and go after the QB like rabid dogs. That in turn puts the OL at a HUGE disadvantage and generally gets your QB HIT!!

Furthermore, run plays wear down a defensive lineman (he is on the defensive) whereas pass plays wear down an offensive lineman (he is on the defensive). The guy doing the reacting is always at a big disadvantage to the guy proacting.

Is it a coincidence that this team has trouble finishing games?? I think not, partly due to playcalling.....and as you requested I have given you a very good explanation (which I have given on this board many times).

Solid.

[Smidgeon]

Apparantly nothing because I haven't said anything about what I think of the playcalling one way or the other. Just that there seem to be a lot of unqualified people making absolute statements. People aren't making "It's my opinion that..." statements; they're making "It's a fact that..." statements without room for discussion.

As for my expertise on that opinion, I read the dictionary and know what the difference between "opinion" and "fact" is.I think Bobble is being a smartazz but I agree, what are your qualification? Just curious since you brought it up. I usually dont call peeps out on a subject unless I got some ammo but really I aint got shit just my opinion.

I don't have any expertise on playcalling. And I don't think anyone else does either. And that's my point.


and that is my point. If you have no expertise, how would you have any clue if anyone else does or not. How would you have any basis to criticize their stated opinions or facts? You have none, and as such your entire opening post is pure hypocrisy.

hy·poc·ri·sy

–noun, plural -sies.
1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
2. a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.
3. an act or instance of hypocrisy.

Show me one place where I said I knew anything about playcalling. Just one. Then you can run around spouting accusations.

If you go back to my original post, I was asking who did know about playcalling. I wanted to separate those who talk for the sake of talking from those who knew what they were talking about so I could keep it straight in my head.

But what I do know a thing or two about is logical fallacies. And saying, "It's bad playcalling because it didn't work," is a logical fallacy called "Appeal to Consequences". Just because the consequence is negative doesn't mean the antedecent was the cause. It could be, but it also could not be, a possibility that appears is being ignored.

So going to your second post, you've explained why running is beneficial for the O-line (in general) and passing is beneficial for the D-line (in general). Thank you. That clears up some things for me and makes sense.

But my followup question would be this: if the Packers' tackles are poor at run blocking and good at pass blocking, does the benefit still stand to run the ball if the only place they can successfully run it is down the middle over and over? Wouldn't that lead to the equivalent of the D-line pinning its ears back and attacking the middle of the line?

Also, couple in a second string RB who has only had two 100 yard games in his career and who many have stated dances around too much, and I suppose it could be argued (I'm not saying I am arguing it--I'm just allowing for the possibility) that the benefit to running the ball--while it still may help the O-line--is mitigated enough that it undermines the team's ability to score points. Especially when their only true superstars on the Offense are the QB and WRs (and TE before he was injured). So why is playing to their strengths a bad thing?

[sharpe1027]

hy·poc·ri·sy

–noun, plural -sies.
1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
2. a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.
3. an act or instance of hypocrisy.

Show me one place where I said I knew anything about playcalling. Just one. Then you can run around spouting accusations.

If you go back to my original post, I was asking who did know about playcalling. I wanted to separate those who talk for the sake of talking from those who knew what they were talking about so I could keep it straight in my head.

Don't take it so personal Smidge. "spouting accusations" is not how I read bobble's post. Much of how posts are interpreted lies with the reader...

The way I understood the hypocrisy was this. If you criticize people for making statements about play calling because they do not have experience with play calling your are putting forth your belief that those that do not have experience do not know what good play calling is or is not. The problem is that you do not have experience. How can you justify your belief, since you cannot possible know what good play calling is or is not? :lol:

[MJZiggy]

You guys fight about the weirdest shit.

[Bretsky]

I think Smidgeon is a fine poster but the concept behind this thread blows

We are in a forum to read about each other's views. I know they are opiniions and whether they sound like they are being factual it's still an opinion unless they site factual statistics.

If we were looking for qualifications in posters we'd probably deem at least 95% to be know nothings and I'd have nothing to read.

But a lot of the know nothings in here know plenty enough to respect their viewpoints on playcalling, or personnell decisions. And when some of the know nothings argue about this stuff a lot of people learn things

So keep on criticizing.....Know Nothings :!: :lol:

[Tarlam!]

Thanks Bretsky, I will!

[gex]

I think Smidgeon is a fine poster but the concept behind this thread blows

We are in a forum to read about each other's views. I know they are opiniions and whether they sound like they are being factual it's still an opinion unless they site factual statistics.

If we were looking for qualifications in posters we'd probably deem at least 95% to be know nothings and I'd have nothing to read.

But a lot of the know nothings in here know plenty enough to respect their viewpoints on playcalling, or personnell decisions. And when some of the know nothings argue about this stuff a lot of people learn things

So keep on criticizing.....Know Nothings :!: :lol:

The best people in their own respected fields will always overlook the most obvious answers to the simpilist solutions..gotta think outside the box....
hell just look at nfl officiating.

[gex]

I've been hearing a lot of complaining about the playcalling around here lately. As such, I'm curious about who really knows anything about playcalling.

List your playcalling experience here. If you've coached in the NFL or with a successful college program, been a coordinator in the NFL or with a successful college program, or befriended someone who was successful at playcalling and learned at the feet of this person, please put it here so I will believe what you say.

Otherwise, I'll know that when you complain about play-calling, I'll just assume you have no idea what you're talking about and are complaining about results (i.e. execution of a play) instead of the play itself.

Thank you.

Was gonna start a different thread after reading this but I'll defer for now and just put it here.
I don't visit any other Packer forums except PR but the almost overbearing support of Packer management is hard to take. We have not won 1 playoff game without BF as our field general and its a good possibility we might not this year again.
Yet it is taboo to criticize team management on this forum...without having your fandom questioned.
Its always been a fans right to bitch about team management. Why is there so much defending a regime that really has not proven anything to us without our HOF QB.

[Tarlam!]

Its always been a fans obligation to bitch about team management.


Fixed! 8-)

[channtheman]

I've been hearing a lot of complaining about the playcalling around here lately. As such, I'm curious about who really knows anything about playcalling.

List your playcalling experience here. If you've coached in the NFL or with a successful college program, been a coordinator in the NFL or with a successful college program, or befriended someone who was successful at playcalling and learned at the feet of this person, please put it here so I will believe what you say.

Otherwise, I'll know that when you complain about play-calling, I'll just assume you have no idea what you're talking about and are complaining about results (i.e. execution of a play) instead of the play itself.

Thank you.

Was gonna start a different thread after reading this but I'll defer for now and just put it here.
I don't visit any other Packer forums except PR but the almost overbearing support of Packer management is hard to take. We have not won 1 playoff game without BF as our field general and its a good possibility we might not this year again.
Yet it is taboo to criticize team management on this forum...without having your fandom questioned.
Its always been a fans right to bitch about team management. Why is there so much defending a regime that really has not proven anything to us without our HOF QB.

I think because Favre's an asshole and so it's easy to side with the other side. (Sorry for fucking this thread up in advance)

[mraynrand]

I've been hearing a lot of complaining about the playcalling around here lately. As such, I'm curious about who really knows anything about playcalling.

List your playcalling experience here. If you've coached in the NFL or with a successful college program, been a coordinator in the NFL or with a successful college program, or befriended someone who was successful at playcalling and learned at the feet of this person, please put it here so I will believe what you say.

Otherwise, I'll know that when you complain about play-calling, I'll just assume you have no idea what you're talking about and are complaining about results (i.e. execution of a play) instead of the play itself.

Thank you.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mJmwQtPmusk/SfYZ1cjoTRI/AAAAAAAADwI/MRWQ9zahPKY/s400/strawman2.jpg

Was gonna start a different thread after reading this but I'll defer for now and just put it here.
I don't visit any other Packer forums except PR but the almost overbearing support of Packer management is hard to take. We have not won 1 playoff game without BF as our field general and its a good possibility we might not this year again.
Yet it is taboo to criticize team management on this forum...without having your fandom questioned.
Its always been a fans right to bitch about team management. Why is there so much defending a regime that really has not proven anything to us without our HOF QB.

[Pugger]

Most of the time when fans howl it is because the play called wasn't executed very well and it failed big time. But we should complain when it appears MM abandons the run if it doesn't work right away. I know that is my biggest beef. Heck, last week Jackson had some nice runs but for some reason we kept chucking it up and Rodgers gets slammed into the ground. I pray MM will change his pass happy ways this week and will remember Rodgers is one more hit in the head away from being out for a longer period of time in the future! :shock:

[ThunderDan]

Was gonna start a different thread after reading this but I'll defer for now and just put it here.
I don't visit any other Packer forums except PR but the almost overbearing support of Packer management is hard to take. We have not won 1 playoff game without BF as our field general and its a good possibility we might not this year again.Yet it is taboo to criticize team management on this forum...without having your fandom questioned.Its always been a fans right to bitch about team management. Why is there so much defending a regime that really has not proven anything to us without our HOF QB.

We only have 2 season without BF as our QB give ARod 16 years and see how many playoff games he wins.

Also, appartently you haven't read any of the critizism that MM has been getting.

[bobblehead]

hy·poc·ri·sy

–noun, plural -sies.
1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
2. a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.
3. an act or instance of hypocrisy.

Show me one place where I said I knew anything about playcalling. Just one. Then you can run around spouting accusations.

If you go back to my original post, I was asking who did know about playcalling. I wanted to separate those who talk for the sake of talking from those who knew what they were talking about so I could keep it straight in my head.

Don't take it so personal Smidge. "spouting accusations" is not how I read bobble's post. Much of how posts are interpreted lies with the reader...

The way I understood the hypocrisy was this. If you criticize people for making statements about play calling because they do not have experience with play calling your are putting forth your belief that those that do not have experience do not know what good play calling is or is not. The problem is that you do not have experience. How can you justify your belief, since you cannot possible know what good play calling is or is not? :lol:

Smidge, I never meant this to be personal, and sorry if my sarcasm made it so. My point is that in your opening point you say that if someone has no experience with playcalling you will assume they are bitching about results. That was my point on hypocrisy. You have no expertise so you have no basis to assume anything about their post (your point, not mine).

I was being more of a smart ass than anything and anyone who reads my crap knows I hate censoring anyone and I kinda took the thread topic as "shut up unless you are an expert". Probably not quite fair of me to read it that strongly, but I just like a good honest exchange of ideas. If I'm stupid, I'll man up and admit it when its shown. Don't enjoy it, but I'll do it.

[bobblehead]

So going to your second post, you've explained why running is beneficial for the O-line (in general) and passing is beneficial for the D-line (in general). Thank you. That clears up some things for me and makes sense.

But my followup question would be this: if the Packers' tackles are poor at run blocking and good at pass blocking, does the benefit still stand to run the ball if the only place they can successfully run it is down the middle over and over? Wouldn't that lead to the equivalent of the D-line pinning its ears back and attacking the middle of the line?

Also, couple in a second string RB who has only had two 100 yard games in his career and who many have stated dances around too much, and I suppose it could be argued (I'm not saying I am arguing it--I'm just allowing for the possibility) that the benefit to running the ball--while it still may help the O-line--is mitigated enough that it undermines the team's ability to score points. Especially when their only true superstars on the Offense are the QB and WRs (and TE before he was injured). So why is playing to their strengths a bad thing?

To your first question. Clifton has in fact gotten so bad he doesn't even give good effort in the run game anymore. It likely doesn't benefit him to call it, but the other 4 it does....and by extension if the D is worn down it benefits the team in the 4th quarter.

Your second point is more valid and is worthy of discussion. Does running the ball hinder our ability to score points. I don't think we are THAT bad at it. We are averaging solid YPC numbers every game and have very few negative or zero running plays. I would bet we have less as a % than we have zero yardage pass plays. Zero yardage plays gets you in third and long...that is bad. Here is a great JS piece on that.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/105018924.html

Just read the first paragraph with Philbin....the goal is to get to third and short...winnable situations. If you take a sack and then get an incompletion you are in a bad way. If you have 2 runs of 2 yards each you got 3rd and 6.....and the D gets worn down and has to honor the run more....that is with 2 BAD runs. we aren't THAT bad. We are average by NFL standards this season when we do actually call run plays.

I will never criticize an individual call....I would need to analyze way too much to say a fullback dive was a bad call in X situation, but the lack of calling the run as a whole is worthy of criticism and discussion.

I am also likely very biased as an undersized OL in college I had to sit back and get bull rushed all game long by guys 50 lbs. heavier then me because I had a pass happy coach. I would beg him to call a couple runs so I could push the fatties around a bit and take the steam out of their shorts.

[pbmax]

I think Smidgeon is a fine poster but the concept behind this thread blows

We are in a forum to read about each other's views. I know they are opiniions and whether they sound like they are being factual it's still an opinion unless they site factual statistics.

If we were looking for qualifications in posters we'd probably deem at least 95% to be know nothings and I'd have nothing to read.

But a lot of the know nothings in here know plenty enough to respect their viewpoints on playcalling, or personnell decisions. And when some of the know nothings argue about this stuff a lot of people learn things

So keep on criticizing.....Know Nothings :!: :lol:
Actually, I am in this forum to ESPOUSE my views, not read the views of other. The latter sounds boring.

[pbmax]

Just read the first paragraph with Philbin....the goal is to get to third and short...winnable situations. If you take a sack and then get an incompletion you are in a bad way. If you have 2 runs of 2 yards each you got 3rd and 6.....and the D gets worn down and has to honor the run more....that is with 2 BAD runs. we aren't THAT bad. We are average by NFL standards this season when we do actually call run plays.
That was a great get by Lori (or whoever talked to Philbin) and its a factor that few fans understand and explains many of the questions raised in this thread. And its great that bobble caught it. Its doubtful JSO will find a use for that info (which probably explains much of the Packers internal statistical measures).

But the problem with 2 yard runs is not that they are bad. As bobble states they are fine. If you could always get 2 yards, 3rd and six is doable. The problem is two fold. If you always run on first and second down to get you 2 yards, defenses will morph into the Pittsburgh Steelers from 1974 and you will score 13 points a game.

Second, sometimes runs are negative, at least more often than explosive runs. One negative run or penalty for holding puts you in the same bad situation as an incompletion and a sack.

So the question is how often do runs work versus how often something bad happens. Same with passing. As you would guess, running tends to have less risk. But the difference between the risks has shrunk since the 1974 Steelers and 3 yards and a cloud of dust. Part of is is an evolution in passing. Much of it was changes to the rule book. There is also the degree to which they succeed. Passes routinely gain 8 yards. Very few runs do. You need a long string of them to reach the endzone. You need fewer completed passes. If your drives tend to have fewer plays, there is less chance for something to go horribly wrong.

And studies have been done to demonstrate that (under current rules) greater amounts of passing leads to better offensive outcomes: points, possession, first downs and yes, TOP.

So balance, the 50/50 variety, is out the window.

But what remains are game situations and defensive adjustments. Defenses can adjust to ruin your success ratio if they know what is coming. And in the second half of the Redskins game, the Packers needed to take off clock in addition to gaining first downs. They needed either runs or short passes (high completion percentage-like runs). They failed in both.

[bobblehead]

PB, I always like your posts, and I agree with you that its no longer a run first league, but we are more like under 30% run plays, and even worse I can almost always call them based on formation.

Today we ran for 4 yards on first down many times only to play action (successfully) and have a drop, bad pass, or good defensive play.

Teams are mostly sitting on the pass with us, and by the end of the game its showing. Our OL is tired, Rodgers is getting chased around and hit, and we aren't finishing.

Another factor is false starts. Our OL are starting to get antsy to get a jump on the DL that knows the pass is coming and we are drawing bad flags.

BJack had 12 carries today....12. Kuhn got 5 more, but at least two came on 2-1 and 3-1 unsuccessfully. I'm not calling that bad playcalling, but more my point is that we again called only 12-15 running plays and because of this we ended up in many bad situations, the defense didn't honor it and we wilted at the end.

Its also true that if we executed better we would have still won both last week and this week. Dropped passes, whiffs by the OL, and false starts add up in an ugly way.

I'm completely frustrated right now with this team, but I also know that if we spank Minny next week all will be well.