WR Coach disses JJ - Says to Cheat

[Tarlam!]

Robinson must be pissed if he publicly disses JJ:


Jones just watched as cornerback Jason Allen cut in front of him and picked off the ball. If Jones had made any kind of attempt to pull Allen down or get his hands on the ball, he would have prevented an interception.

"You have to break that up," Robinson said. "If you have to do something illegal and get a penalty, do that. Anything's preferable to an interception."

On the positive, I think it's great that JJ is being made accountable.

Maybe I'm too old fashioned or just a pussy, but I'm not thrilled when coaches teach their charges to cheat. I know it's a tactical foul, happens in soccer all the time. What do other posters think?

Another question: Could the NFL take any action on those comments?

[Fred's Slacks]

Robinson must be pissed if he publicly disses JJ:


Jones just watched as cornerback Jason Allen cut in front of him and picked off the ball. If Jones had made any kind of attempt to pull Allen down or get his hands on the ball, he would have prevented an interception.

"You have to break that up," Robinson said. "If you have to do something illegal and get a penalty, do that. Anything's preferable to an interception."

On the positive, I think it's great that JJ is being made accountable.

Maybe I'm too old fashioned or just a pussy, but I'm not thrilled when coaches teach their charges to cheat. I know it's a tactical foul, happens in soccer all the time. What do other posters think?

Another question: Could the NFL take any action on those comments?

I guess I wouldn't call intentionally committing a penalty, with full intent of getting caught, cheating. If the penalty is better then the alternative, players should be taught to commit the penalty. Not cheating, just smart football IMHO.

[Joemailman]

You do what you have to do to prevent the interception (short of intentionally injuring someone). It's up to the ref to decide if what you did deserves a penalty.

[MJZiggy]

He's saying that JJ needs to fight for the ball even if it costs a penalty (offensive PI). He's saying that JJ's not being aggressive enough in that situation. Maybe he breaks it up without the penalty, but it's worth the risk is how I read that statement. If he were advocating breaking the defender's ribs while he's going after the ball, I'd have another opinion about it, but this to me seems like risk assessment. Better to risk penalty than give up the pick.

[Fritz]

Same as a defender who's about to get burned long dragging the receiver down.

BTW, I used to like James Jones, but this season has been his big opportunity to step up, but instead he's going all Robert Ferguson on us.

[Brandon494]

Umm that's not cheating, that's common sense. Any coach at any level would tell their player the samething.

[3irty1]

"cheating" and "doing something illegal" to prevent a turnover are a little different imo. What constitutes a penalty in the NFL is an awfully fluid concept as the rules are revisited every year. Is tackling a defender before they would make an interception an unfair advantage? I'd say no. Getting a penalty does not make you a cheater or if it does we are the biggest pack of cheaters in the NFL and JJ needs to assimilate the team identity and philosophies.

[mraynrand]

It's not cheating. Trust me.
http://weblogs.wpix.com/sports/thehuddle/image/bill-belichick.jpg

It's interesting to hear the reaction of the coach. I thought Jones was pushed on the play (should have been PI), however it was a minor push. Had Jones fought back for the ball, PI would have had to be called. Jones was totally lame. Similarly, on a deep middle route by God's Gift, the ball was thrown inside. Had GG moved strongly to the ball, he would have drawn a PI. Coaches need to be teaching this, at least as much as they need to be teaching Francois where to line up on a punt.

[pbmax]

You have got to bail your QB out on that one. Its one way to earn his trust to throw to tight quarters. I would be concerned if McCarthy of Thompson made this trait more important than others in acquiring or promoting players, but his position coach definitely needs to encourage it.

[sharpe1027]

I don't think it means much.

Teams intentionally take a delay of game penalty, is that cheating too?

Linemen hold when they are beat, DBs and LBers grab when they are beat, QBs get called for intentional grounding, ect...

Oh, coaches also tell their special teams players to illegally lineup on punts. :lol:

[Tarlam!]

As I posted, I am familiar with the concept and in soccer it has a term "professional foul", so what your all suggesting is similar.

It had become so prolific that the rules in soccer were changed, but it still occurs. The suggestion is, if you can't get a desired result by playing within the rules, play without them, the desired result usually being to stop an opponents gaining a strategic advantage.

In soccer, it's an automatic red card (tossed from the game) if the PF is committed by the last defender. Because it's cheating.

I'd be outraged if someone committed a foul on Collins or Chuck in such a fashion, but hey, that's me.

[ND72]

Robinson must be pissed if he publicly disses JJ:


Jones just watched as cornerback Jason Allen cut in front of him and picked off the ball. If Jones had made any kind of attempt to pull Allen down or get his hands on the ball, he would have prevented an interception.

"You have to break that up," Robinson said. "If you have to do something illegal and get a penalty, do that. Anything's preferable to an interception."

On the positive, I think it's great that JJ is being made accountable.

Maybe I'm too old fashioned or just a pussy, but I'm not thrilled when coaches teach their charges to cheat. I know it's a tactical foul, happens in soccer all the time. What do other posters think?

Another question: Could the NFL take any action on those comments?

I don't think it's wrong teaching your players to "cheat" or get a penalty if it's for the good of the team. If you grab the DB instead of allowing him to intercept the ball, yes you are putting the offense back 10 yards, but I'd rather have that then give them the ball.

And no...the NFL can't take any action on that, comments like that are made every week. However, I got an unsportsman like penalty called against me last football season when I told our Linebackers to tackle the other teams 250 pound fullback at the knees....I was PISSED the rest of the night at those refs.

[Tarlam!]

However, I got an unsportsman like penalty called against me last football season when I told our Linebackers to tackle the other teams 250 pound fullback at the knees....I was PISSED the rest of the night at those refs.

Is that legal?

In Rugby, we go for ankles in an arm tackle and thighsto upper chest for a shoulder charge. Neck up is a no-no.

[sharpe1027]

Intentional fouls often backfire. In football, there is seldom enough time to think through the consequences. If you go around trying to tackle players when they might catch a ball, you're bound to get penalties where the player would not have caught the ball anyway.

The thing with JJ is that he could have made an effort for the ball, without intentionally committing a penalty. Maybe it would have ended up being a penalty, but then again it might not have. Aggressive play when you know you might get a penalty is often better than just giving up because you might get a penalty. I think that is the point.

[Tarlam!]

The thing with JJ is that he could have made an effort for the ball, without intentionally committing a penalty. Maybe it would have ended up being a penalty, but then again it might not have. Aggressive play when you know you might get a penalty is often better than just giving up because you might get a penalty. I think that is the point.

I don't call going for the ball and committing a foul cheating and I have zero problem with Robinson chewing him out for not doing so.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

lol that is not cheating. Cheating is doing something to get an advantage without being caught. He was telling him to fight for the ball and prevent it from being picked off no matter what. That is not even close to cheating.

[get louder at lambeau]

I used to like James Jones, but this season has been his big opportunity to step up, but instead he's going all Robert Ferguson on us.

Ouch. You gonna take that, Jones?

[Freak Out]

Cheating? That's called smart football.

[ND72]

First day of pads every season, the first thing I teach my lineman is how to "properly" and "legally" hold someone. I always get one kid, "isn't holding illegal?"...you bet, but not if the refs can't see it or can't tell who's holding who.

[channtheman]

At the end of a basketball game when one team that is down 5 with 30 seconds to go they intentionally foul the other team. I see this as a similar strategy. Smart fouling is as good a tactic as any, IMO (I put IMO just so you all know that I'm no expert and this is not fact. It is merely my opinion).

[channtheman]

Same as a defender who's about to get burned long dragging the receiver down.

BTW, I used to like James Jones, but this season has been his big opportunity to step up, but instead he's going all Robert Ferguson on us.

+1.

Jones has failed in a big way this year. He has been targeted the most and done very little with this opportunity.

[mmmdk]

Ugh, I had forgotten all about Fergy but JJ is a close clone this season.

I really like what Robinson says here; I prefer "Tuna" coaching - really tough and determined. Maybe Robinson should refer with a "she" about the wuziness of Packers receivers :P

[ND72]

Ugh, I had forgotten all about Fergy but JJ is a close clone this season.

I really like what Robinson says here; I prefer "Tuna" coaching - really tough and determined. Maybe Robinson should refer with a "she" about the wuziness of Packers receivers :P


I had a Fergy sighting...caught a couple TD's from Jeff Garcia in the UFL or whatever that is.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

At the end of a basketball game when one team that is down 5 with 30 seconds to go they intentionally foul the other team. I see this as a similar strategy. Smart fouling is as good a tactic as any, IMO (I put IMO just so you all know that I'm no expert and this is not fact. It is merely my opinion).

Good example

[Fritz]

Robinson must be pissed if he publicly disses JJ:


Jones just watched as cornerback Jason Allen cut in front of him and picked off the ball. If Jones had made any kind of attempt to pull Allen down or get his hands on the ball, he would have prevented an interception.

"You have to break that up," Robinson said. "If you have to do something illegal and get a penalty, do that. Anything's preferable to an interception."

On the positive, I think it's great that JJ is being made accountable.

Maybe I'm too old fashioned or just a pussy, but I'm not thrilled when coaches teach their charges to cheat. I know it's a tactical foul, happens in soccer all the time. What do other posters think?

Another question: Could the NFL take any action on those comments?

I don't think it's wrong teaching your players to "cheat" or get a penalty if it's for the good of the team. If you grab the DB instead of allowing him to intercept the ball, yes you are putting the offense back 10 yards, but I'd rather have that then give them the ball.

And no...the NFL can't take any action on that, comments like that are made every week. However, I got an unsportsman like penalty called against me last football season when I told our Linebackers to tackle the other teams 250 pound fullback at the knees....I was PISSED the rest of the night at those refs.

Steroids okay?

[ND72]

Robinson must be pissed if he publicly disses JJ:


Jones just watched as cornerback Jason Allen cut in front of him and picked off the ball. If Jones had made any kind of attempt to pull Allen down or get his hands on the ball, he would have prevented an interception.

"You have to break that up," Robinson said. "If you have to do something illegal and get a penalty, do that. Anything's preferable to an interception."

On the positive, I think it's great that JJ is being made accountable.

Maybe I'm too old fashioned or just a pussy, but I'm not thrilled when coaches teach their charges to cheat. I know it's a tactical foul, happens in soccer all the time. What do other posters think?

Another question: Could the NFL take any action on those comments?

I don't think it's wrong teaching your players to "cheat" or get a penalty if it's for the good of the team. If you grab the DB instead of allowing him to intercept the ball, yes you are putting the offense back 10 yards, but I'd rather have that then give them the ball.

And no...the NFL can't take any action on that, comments like that are made every week. However, I got an unsportsman like penalty called against me last football season when I told our Linebackers to tackle the other teams 250 pound fullback at the knees....I was PISSED the rest of the night at those refs.

Steroids okay?


That is completely different than the type of on the field cheating I'm speaking about.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I actually think Jones looked good early. He looks healthy. Has been tough after the catch. However, he's had a couple of big-time bonehead plays. (Kind of a recurring them with him throughout his career.) For the amount of targets I think his production is a little disappointing. Of course, Jordy has a case of the dropsies. Our backup WRs have been a bit disappointing, but I still think they are solid. The whole offense is going through a tough stretch, and nobody is picking up the play of others.

[Guiness]

First day of pads every season, the first thing I teach my lineman is how to "properly" and "legally" hold someone. I always get one kid, "isn't holding illegal?"...you bet, but not if the refs can't see it or can't tell who's holding who.

lol at that. I think you might have coached at my uni?

I remember at a full pads practice, an MLB (damn good player, was a terror on the lacrosse field) blowing up and yelling at the coach "do you teach your fucking linemen to hold?????"

Coaches reply: yes, and that'll be ten laps.

[Guiness]

Ugh, I had forgotten all about Fergy but JJ is a close clone this season.

I really like what Robinson says here; I prefer "Tuna" coaching - really tough and determined. Maybe Robinson should refer with a "she" about the wuziness of Packers receivers :P


I had a Fergy sighting...caught a couple TD's from Jeff Garcia in the UFL or whatever that is.

I was going to make a crack about him playing for Omaha...it might be true????

Can't believe Garcia is doing that though. Sad, he had a good long career, with a couple of Pro Bowls, a couple of rings up here in Canada. Why would he drop to that level?

edit: wiki page says he is indeed there, handing off the ball to Ahmed Greene! No word if Fergy's catching passes over there though.

[Bretsky]

Now there our homer views and coming back to earth we just might be realizing

we DON'T have the best 1-2-3-4 punch in the NFL at WR

I'm not sure where we are; but they don't look much over average as a group to me

[pbmax]

Now there our homer views and coming back to earth we just might be realizing

we DON'T have the best 1-2-3-4 punch in the NFL at WR

I'm not sure where we are; but they don't look much over average as a group to me
Season is not over yet Napoleon. :lol:

EDIT: Man, that joke (judging too soon) doesn't work. Someone finish it for me, will ya?

[mission]

Tar, bud... this is just one of those lost-in-translation things here. :D

You can't compare it to soccer and an instant tossing of a player. Guys get booted they're flying it tackling at guys' knees and there's the whole injury factor. Where would you draw the line? If a CB got beat deep and tackled a guy early so he wouldn't score a TD do you kick him out too?

[The Leaper]

+1.

Jones has failed in a big way this year. He has been targeted the most and done very little with this opportunity.

I think Jordy all but supplanted him as the #3 by the end of the Miami game. Jordy was the one grabbing passes late in that game...didn't see much of Jones after he gave up on that INT.

[mission]

+1.

Jones has failed in a big way this year. He has been targeted the most and done very little with this opportunity.

I think Jordy all but supplanted him as the #3 by the end of the Miami game. Jordy was the one grabbing passes late in that game...didn't see much of Jones after he gave up on that INT.

Jordy is just as bad. Too many drops.

[The Leaper]

I'm not sure where we are; but they don't look much over average as a group to me

They are better than average...but they aren't an elite unit unless you bring the TEs into the equation. Our WRs with Finley have an argument for being an elite group of receivers.

Jennings is probably about the 15th best WR in the game....easily top 10 in playmaking, but he ain't consistent enough to be an elite WR. He would disappear on a lesser team without a solid QB.

Driver is probably around 35th best. He's still good enough to be a #1 WR on an awful receiving corp...and he's a slightly above average #2 receiver. He gives his all...but his all just ain't what it used to be.

Jordy is probably around 55th best. Like Driver, the kid gives it his all...but just doesn't have the talent of others. He runs reliable routes and has pretty good hands. Yeah, he's a lousy kick returner...so what? It ain't his fault Thompson doesn't bring in an actual returner at some point. As a receiver, I think the kid is better than Jones because of effort and reliability. He could be a #2 receiver on a few poor squads. His ceiling probably isn't much higher than this though.

Jones is probably about 75th best...he's a solid #3 receiver in my book. He's got solid #2 talent, but he's got to focus on the mental aspect of the game and not playing lazy.

Overall, that is better than average...there aren't many teams that can go 4 deep and have a top 75 receiver. However, since Jennings isn't elite and the rest are merely solid at their slots, it isn't an elite group either. Probably about the 6th-10th best WR group as a whole.

[The Leaper]

Jordy is just as bad. Too many drops.

He's only had 2 official drops this season...and he's caught 62% of the passes thrown to him. That isn't all bad. Jones has only caught 56% of the passes thrown to him this year, Jennings 53%, Driver 72%.

I don't get the argument that Jordy drops a bunch of passes. It is a fallacy. He's technically our 2nd most reliable receiver after Driver...but Driver has twice the drops that Jordy has this year.

Now, if you want to get on him for return fumbles...fine...but he shouldn't be a returner to begin with. As a receiver, the guy is light years ahead of Jones in ball security and effort.

[Bretsky]

I'm not sure where we are; but they don't look much over average as a group to me

They are better than average...but they aren't an elite unit unless you bring the TEs into the equation. Our WRs with Finley have an argument for being an elite group of receivers.

Jennings is probably about the 15th best WR in the game....easily top 10 in playmaking, but he ain't consistent enough to be an elite WR. He would disappear on a lesser team without a solid QB.

Driver is probably around 35th best. He's still good enough to be a #1 WR on an awful receiving corp...and he's a slightly above average #2 receiver. He gives his all...but his all just ain't what it used to be.

Jordy is probably around 55th best. Like Driver, the kid gives it his all...but just doesn't have the talent of others. He runs reliable routes and has pretty good hands. Yeah, he's a lousy kick returner...so what? It ain't his fault Thompson doesn't bring in an actual returner at some point. As a receiver, I think the kid is better than Jones because of effort and reliability. He could be a #2 receiver on a few poor squads. His ceiling probably isn't much higher than this though.

Jones is probably about 75th best...he's a solid #3 receiver in my book. He's got solid #2 talent, but he's got to focus on the mental aspect of the game and not playing lazy.

Overall, that is better than average...there aren't many teams that can go 4 deep and have a top 75 receiver. However, since Jennings isn't elite and the rest are merely solid at their slots, it isn't an elite group either. Probably about the 6th-10th best WR group as a whole.



Honestly I agree with all of this; I was at the game Sunday and became very frustrated when I witnessed our WR's covered consistently like a blanket. They were not getting open.

Jennings still runs solid routes. Jones is sloppy. Jordy is normal, and DD really was getting handled most of the game so I'm moe down on all of them than I should be.

Today at work I commented I was worried DD was turning into a average #2 and they challenged me to list the #2's better than him and I could only throw 5-7 out there I'd rather have. So about 35 is good for him

Good analysis you provided :!:

[curtis loew]

Ugh, I had forgotten all about Fergy but JJ is a close clone this season.

I really like what Robinson says here; I prefer "Tuna" coaching - really tough and determined. Maybe Robinson should refer with a "she" about the wuziness of Packers receivers :P


I had a Fergy sighting...caught a couple TD's from Jeff Garcia in the UFL or whatever that is.

I was going to make a crack about him playing for Omaha...it might be true????

Can't believe Garcia is doing that though. Sad, he had a good long career, with a couple of Pro Bowls, a couple of rings up here in Canada. Why would he drop to that level?

edit: wiki page says he is indeed there, handing off the ball to Ahmed Greene! No word if Fergy's catching passes over there though.

http://www.ufl-football.com/omaha-nighthawks/player-roster

Lots of ex-nfl on this roster. Fergy, garcia, ahman green, cato june, maurice clarett, probably some more I missed as I scanned the list.

[packerbacker1234]

There are smart penalties, and bad penalties. Him doing what it takes to break up an int is a smart penalty.

Woodson actually had a simlarily smart penalty in one of the passes prior to ot the last two weeks. He tripped a guy down before teh ball was thrown. Said player looked to be opening up the sidelinbe for another player, but was unable to do so due to falling down in front of him. Not only did it prevent a completed pass along the sidelines, it was just a 5 yard foul, if memory serves me correct, and they decided to knee it on the next play.

Every coach teaches you when it is and when it isn't okay to commit a penalty for the BENEFIT of your team. You take the lesser of two evils. I am mostly happy that the WR coach is actively criticising his players. JJ has a very big head on his shoulders and he hasn't always lived up to his potential. He has made some great plays - so did Furgeson back in the day, but his lack of 100% effort on every play, and the fact he makes some really bad mistakes (not wrapping the ball up down the sidelines on a potential game winning drive late in the 4th). He has a lot of talent and is a gifted WR, it's time someone in the orginization starts calling him out.

[channtheman]

Jordy is just as bad. Too many drops.

He's only had 2 official drops this season...and he's caught 62% of the passes thrown to him. That isn't all bad. Jones has only caught 56% of the passes thrown to him this year, Jennings 53%, Driver 72%.

I don't get the argument that Jordy drops a bunch of passes. It is a fallacy. He's technically our 2nd most reliable receiver after Driver...but Driver has twice the drops that Jordy has this year.

Now, if you want to get on him for return fumbles...fine...but he shouldn't be a returner to begin with. As a receiver, the guy is light years ahead of Jones in ball security and effort.

I'm just curious about this and honestly too lazy to look it up myself, but I believe Jordy has only ever fumbled on a kickoff against Detroit. I know for sure last year it was against Detroit, and now this year it was also Detroit. Maybe we should just let someone else return kicks when we play the Lions?

[Guiness]

I was going to make a crack about him playing for Omaha...it might be true????

Can't believe Garcia is doing that though. Sad, he had a good long career, with a couple of Pro Bowls, a couple of rings up here in Canada. Why would he drop to that level?

edit: wiki page says he is indeed there, handing off the ball to Ahmed Greene! No word if Fergy's catching passes over there though.

http://www.ufl-football.com/omaha-nighthawks/player-roster

Lots of ex-nfl on this roster. Fergy, garcia, ahman green, cato june, maurice clarett, probably some more I missed as I scanned the list.

It's the old Packer's club there. As well as Ahman and Fergy, Aaron rouse and Junius Coston (and one can only assume his infamous wife) are there as well!

[Fritz]

I was going to make a crack about him playing for Omaha...it might be true????

Can't believe Garcia is doing that though. Sad, he had a good long career, with a couple of Pro Bowls, a couple of rings up here in Canada. Why would he drop to that level?

edit: wiki page says he is indeed there, handing off the ball to Ahmed Greene! No word if Fergy's catching passes over there though.

http://www.ufl-football.com/omaha-nighthawks/player-roster

Lots of ex-nfl on this roster. Fergy, garcia, ahman green, cato june, maurice clarett, probably some more I missed as I scanned the list.

Why is she infamous? Or were you thinking of Torrance Marhsall's infamous girlfirend?

It's the old Packer's club there. As well as Ahman and Fergy, Aaron rouse and Junius Coston (and one can only assume his infamous wife) are there as well!

[MichiganPackerFan]

anyone have the number of opportunities for each WR compared to the number of drops?

(Sorry if i missed it!)

[mraynrand]

anyone have the number of opportunities for each WR compared to the number of drops?

(Sorry if i missed it!)

Opportunities: many
Drops: too many

[MJZiggy]

I was going to make a crack about him playing for Omaha...it might be true????

Can't believe Garcia is doing that though. Sad, he had a good long career, with a couple of Pro Bowls, a couple of rings up here in Canada. Why would he drop to that level?

edit: wiki page says he is indeed there, handing off the ball to Ahmed Greene! No word if Fergy's catching passes over there though.

http://www.ufl-football.com/omaha-nighthawks/player-roster

Lots of ex-nfl on this roster. Fergy, garcia, ahman green, cato june, maurice clarett, probably some more I missed as I scanned the list.

Why is she infamous? Or were you thinking of Torrance Marhsall's infamous girlfirend?

It's the old Packer's club there. As well as Ahman and Fergy, Aaron rouse and Junius Coston (and one can only assume his infamous wife) are there as well!

She has a reputation around here...

[Joemailman]

Will Jeff Garcia's wife be there?

http://www.ayushveda.com/mens-magazine/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/1256.jpg

[bobblehead]

Will Jeff Garcia's wife be there?

http://www.ayushveda.com/mens-magazine/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/1256.jpg

TO says he is gay....well, sign me up.

[Tarlam!]

I am a man of great faith and I have never ceased to wonder at all of the beautiful things the creator has made that leave me breathless. I just had such a breathless moment.

[gbgary]

I am a man of great faith and I have never ceased to wonder at all of the beautiful things the creator has made that leave me breathless. I just had such a breathless moment.

amen to that! omg! :shock: