Keeping Drives Alive

[sharpe1027]

I am curious what others have to offer on this topic. The Packers have had a lot of trouble maintaining drives. Last year, they seemed to be able to move the ball more consistently. The obvious answer would be the lack of running game after Grant went down, coupled with penalties and dropped passes, but the passing offense seems to have shifted focus as well.

When is the last time they dumped the ball off to a safety valve/RB out of the back field? Where are the underneath routes? How about the WR slants? How about TEs sitting down in the zone, rather than running a 20 yard post pattern?

Next question. If I'm not just imagining this change, is it that they have changed their offense, or is it Rodgers?

[packers11]

The slant plays are not there anymore... I don't give a shit if the corner is playing inside technique or whatever .. If our receiving core is "that good" one of these dip shits would get open... WR screens and WR slants have been taken out of the play-book. It looks like when I was 12 year olds calling plays in madden, everyone runs 10+ yard routes and hopefully we can get huge gains / score in 2-3 plays... I'm starting to get really frustrated with this horse shit... Its either A-Rod audibling out of these plays, or M.M. not calling them...

This goes back to the "play-calling thread"... Why can't MM go back to 2007 mode... Look at NE this week, they don't have a good running back but Tom Brady does 5-7 yard passes all the way up the field... If M.M. refuses to run - atleast start calling plays that will help continue the drive...

[packrulz]

I feel the same way, it seems M3 wants to go deep on every play, and the play action fakes aren't effective anymore. The way defenses are coming after ARod there is often a big open spot in the middle of the field, I don't know why a RB or TE can't run over there to exploit that. I did see a couple times BJack or Kuhn would be looking for the ball outside the hash marks but ARod chose to go downfield. I guess considering they lost Grant, Finley, Taucher, Pickett, Matthews, Barnett, Burnett, Bigby, Harris, and Neal (whew), it's pretty remarkable they even took the 2 games to OT.

[red]

seems like we're going all or nothing on every play, which has a pretty low success rate. every now and then you'll get a 86 yard TD to jennings, but you're going to have far more failed drives and hang your defense out to dry

[mraynrand]

Last drive in OT Rodgers had someone open right away and would have gained at least 5 or so on 2nd and 3rd downs, had he thrown it immediately. Sometimes you have to take the quick hitch to get the yards. If you ignore those short plays while looking for the big gainer, you can't come back to them.

[Bossman641]

I don't know whether it's on Rodgers or MM but they have been awful on 3rd down, especially the past 2 games. I think 5-25 or 5-26 is the number. Tough to win games this way.

Opposing defenses have taken what the Bears did - cover 2 with both safeties deep, and paired that with man coverage underneath. I have no clue where the short stuff is. You would think they would run some ins and outs, run some WR drags across the field hoping the DB gets lost in the wash to try and get Jennings the ball in space but it's not happening.

[pbmax]

Short stuff might not be there if LBs are also playing man, those are the easiest pattern to cover. Philbin and Rodgers both said routes that work against man take longer to develop and with pressure or Rodgers skittishness, they are not finding the time to get the receiver clear.

I don't think the offense is clicking 100%, but if they stopped dropping passes, fumbling and having pre-snap penalties at home (or FedEx field where the Cheeseheads were louder than the home crowd), they would lead the league in scoring. Even while not clicking on all cylinders. All offenses look bad at 3rd and 10. But the Packers are putting themselves in that position too often.

[Freak Out]

Short stuff might not be there if LBs are also playing man, those are the easiest pattern to cover. Philbin and Rodgers both said routes that work against man take longer to develop and with pressure or Rodgers skittishness, they are not finding the time to get the receiver clear.

I don't think the offense is clicking 100%, but if they stopped dropping passes, fumbling and having pre-snap penalties at home (or FedEx field where the Cheeseheads were louder than the home crowd), they would lead the league in scoring. Even while not clicking on all cylinders. All offenses look bad at 3rd and 10. But the Packers are putting themselves in that position too often.

We shoot ourselves in the foot far to often. The penalties are just killers.

[Joemailman]

If they're playing man underneath, shouldn't pick plays be effective, if you can get away with it? Not that I'm suggesting the Packers should cheat or anything. :D

[Bossman641]

Short stuff might not be there if LBs are also playing man, those are the easiest pattern to cover. Philbin and Rodgers both said routes that work against man take longer to develop and with pressure or Rodgers skittishness, they are not finding the time to get the receiver clear.

I don't think the offense is clicking 100%, but if they stopped dropping passes, fumbling and having pre-snap penalties at home (or FedEx field where the Cheeseheads were louder than the home crowd), they would lead the league in scoring. Even while not clicking on all cylinders. All offenses look bad at 3rd and 10. But the Packers are putting themselves in that position too often.

Couldn't agree more. Way too many 3rd and 8+.

[pbmax]

If they're playing man underneath, shouldn't pick plays be effective, if you can get away with it? Not that I'm suggesting the Packers should cheat or anything. :D
Its a great question. I had noticed more 2 deep safeties and I thought that was part of Jennings issue during the dry spell. If they were just trying to stop Finley, they would knock him around with a LB (harder to do if he splits wide or is in the slot) and then bring a safety down to double him.

But JSO thinks this had something to do with Grant being out and not respecting the run. Quite possible especially since Cover 2 is not as common on 1st and 2nd down. It would argue for running against seven in the box, but its easy to get predicable if you run, run then pass on 3rd.

In either case, I have not been able to read what teams are doing underneath. Given that the Packers have been throwing WR screens, some of that coverage is off, but that does not necessarily mean zone. The flanker or slot guy can be behind the LOS and that by itself can create off coverage.

[Joemailman]

Short stuff might not be there if LBs are also playing man, those are the easiest pattern to cover. Philbin and Rodgers both said routes that work against man take longer to develop and with pressure or Rodgers skittishness, they are not finding the time to get the receiver clear.

I don't think the offense is clicking 100%, but if they stopped dropping passes, fumbling and having pre-snap penalties at home (or FedEx field where the Cheeseheads were louder than the home crowd), they would lead the league in scoring. Even while not clicking on all cylinders. All offenses look bad at 3rd and 10. But the Packers are putting themselves in that position too often.

Couldn't agree more. Way too many 3rd and 8+.

While a generally agree that 3rd and long is not what you want, that was not really the case Sunday. Packers were 3-7 on 3rd and 10+. They were 0-6 on 3rd and 7 or less including 1 INT and 2 sacks. Not sure what it means, although it might give credence to the feeling that teams are concentrating on take away the underneath stuff. The only way to force opposing defenses out of this is to hit on some of those passes between the linebackers and safeties. The drops have to stop.

[gbgary]

first thing that has to happen is they have to make getting the first down the first priority. instead of opting for a short pass say to convert a third and four the Packers are trying to take big bites and are going ten or fifteen yards down field. if they need four get under center and get that first down before going down field. hell, do the same thing on second and four. the d will start cheating up and then the deeper routes will be open. slants are seen much less because we're in the shotgun most of the time.

[sharpe1027]

If teams are playing cover 2 on early downs, is part of the problem that teams are able to sit back because the Packers can't string a series of successful short yardage plays together without making a mistake? Is another part of the problem that the Packers simply aren't taking what the defense is giving them?

[ThunderDan]

If teams are playing cover 2 on early downs, is part of the problem that teams are able to sit back because the Packers can't string a series of successful short yardage plays together without making a mistake? Is another part of the problem that the Packers simply aren't taking what the defense is giving them?

When teams play cover 2 they are only keeping 7 men on the box against the run. So teams that play cover 2 on 1st and 2nd down usually don't respect the other teams run game or know that they are a pass heavy offensive scheme.

[sharpe1027]

First, thanks for the great answers from everyone, especially all the detailed discussion of formations and strategies.

Second, I think I understand the point about respecting the running game. However, assuming a team doesn't have confidence in their running game, how would a team usually attack a cover 2? Is it susceptible to deep routes by multiple WRs? Does it take away the short options? Might that explain the play calling or Rodger's choices?

[ThunderDan]

First, thanks for the great answers from everyone, especially all the detailed discussion of formations and strategies.

Second, I think I understand the point about respecting the running game. However, assuming a team doesn't have confidence in their running game, how would a team usually attack a cover 2? Is it susceptible to deep routes by multiple WRs? Does it take away the short options? Might that explain the play calling or Rodger's choices?

The best way to attack cover 2 is to have a fast athletic TE who runs right down the middle of the field (Read as J Finley) In a cover 2 the MLB is resposible for the deep middle zone. If you have a TE that is faster and more athletic you can rip off 15-20 yard chunks at a time.

The other way is to run and run effectively. Force the D to bring a safety into the box to make it 7 vs 8. That leaves only 1 safety deep and changes coverage. Forcing the safety to play over the top of one of the WR while the other WR has 1-on-1 verses a CB.

[sharpe1027]

The best way to attack cover 2 is to have a fast athletic TE who runs right down the middle of the field (Read as J Finley) In a cover 2 the MLB is resposible for the deep middle zone. If you have a TE that is faster and more athletic you can rip off 15-20 yard chunks at a time.

The other way is to run and run effectively. Force the D to bring a safety into the box to make it 7 vs 8. That leaves only 1 safety deep and changes coverage. Forcing the safety to play over the top of one of the WR while the other WR has 1-on-1 verses a CB.

Thanks again for the breakdown. I guess that losing Grant and Finely explains why they will be seeing a lot of cover 2 from here on out and why they are having difficulties attacking it.

[Tony Oday]

Quarless is a 6-4 252lb beast that runs a 4.69 40....Finley is a 6-5 236 lb 4.82 40...seem pretty damn similar to me. Quarless needs to get up on the playbook and assert himself.

B Jack has been running great the last two weeks...when he gets the rock.


Our drives are working with 4-5 yard hitches. I dont understand why there is not a run EVERY time there are 7 in the box...no excusses.

[ThunderDan]

The best way to attack cover 2 is to have a fast athletic TE who runs right down the middle of the field (Read as J Finley) In a cover 2 the MLB is resposible for the deep middle zone. If you have a TE that is faster and more athletic you can rip off 15-20 yard chunks at a time.

The other way is to run and run effectively. Force the D to bring a safety into the box to make it 7 vs 8. That leaves only 1 safety deep and changes coverage. Forcing the safety to play over the top of one of the WR while the other WR has 1-on-1 verses a CB.

Thanks again for the breakdown. I guess that losing Grant and Finely explains why they will be seeing a lot of cover 2 from here on out and why they are having difficulties attacking it.

Yeh, it will be harder losing Grant and Finley. In Sunday's game verses Miami, the throw to Crabtree was exactly what we needed to loosen the D up. The ran the play once and didn't run it again which surprised me. Maybe they did but Crabtree or Quarless couldn't beat the MLB. Also, I thought we ran the ball effectively when we ran it. We should have kept running until Miami put the safety into the box.

The other thing we are missing is delays and short flairs to the RBs to attack the areas where the DEs are rushing from. They could have helped Bulaga out by allowing the DEs aggression to create voids in the D coverage and slip the ball in where the DE needs to have contain.

[sharpe1027]

Quarless has a lot of the same tools, but I don't see him as being comparable to Finley right now. Quarless uses his body to catch the ball and/or cradles the ball. He also looks less fluid and doesn't seem to use his height and body to its full advantage when going for a catch and beating a defender to the ball.

I don't understand why Jackson isn't getting the ball more. Maybe they are concerned that if he gets hurt they are completely done?

[Tarlam!]

The other thing we are missing is delays and short flairs to the RBs to attack the areas where the DEs are rushing from. They could have helped Bulaga out by allowing the DEs aggression to create voids in the D coverage and slip the ball in where the DE needs to have contain.

I've seen college teams do this better than the Packers! I'm glad to see one of our experts pick up on this point. I've often wondered why M3 doesn't employ the delayed hand off, or flea-flickers or end arounds. I know the latter are trick plays, and you shouldn't do it often. But how about a shotgun snap directly to the the HB?

It seems to me the Packers offense is as predictable at times as the infamous U71 finally became.

[bobblehead]

First, thanks for the great answers from everyone, especially all the detailed discussion of formations and strategies.

Second, I think I understand the point about respecting the running game. However, assuming a team doesn't have confidence in their running game, how would a team usually attack a cover 2? Is it susceptible to deep routes by multiple WRs? Does it take away the short options? Might that explain the play calling or Rodger's choices?

The best way to attack cover 2 is to have a fast athletic TE who runs right down the middle of the field (Read as J Finley) In a cover 2 the MLB is resposible for the deep middle zone. If you have a TE that is faster and more athletic you can rip off 15-20 yard chunks at a time.

The other way is to run and run effectively. Force the D to bring a safety into the box to make it 7 vs 8. That leaves only 1 safety deep and changes coverage. Forcing the safety to play over the top of one of the WR while the other WR has 1-on-1 verses a CB.

donald lee was running that route very well in '07...what the hell happened since then?

[bobblehead]

Quarless is a 6-4 252lb beast that runs a 4.69 40....Finley is a 6-5 236 lb 4.82 40...seem pretty damn similar to me. Quarless needs to get up on the playbook and assert himself.


More to it than that. Finley just plain plays big. He uses his body to shield a defender very well and catches most everything he gets his hands on.....playing the ball in the air if you will. He also has a knack for catching a ball in full stride. Some guys have that, others do not...Jerry Rice was probably the best I ever saw at it.

I would venter to guess I could find 20 TE's in the league who you don't know with similar measurables that you have just listed....My guess, not fact mind you.