Packers offer contract to Tramon Williams

[steve823]

Green Bay Packers have made an offer to impending free-agent CB Tramon Williams, which he is currently taking into consideration, reports Bob McGinn, of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. The team is willing to pay Williams more than what CB Al Harris makes but nothing close to CB Charles Woodson. Harris makes an average of $5.418 million while Woodson makes an average of $9.73 million.

He's been playing lights out, good to see TT trying to lock him up.

[TheCheese]

He won't sign that, and he shouldn't. I'd be happy if we got him locked up with 8 mil a year. Hes worth it.

[Fritz]

I am glad to see that talks are underway. I wouldn't mind seeing something get done or at least attempted for Jenkins, too.

Colledge, meh. Let him walk unless he wants a reasonable salary. For a guy in his contract year, he's . . . okay.

[mission]

Man, I really hope Williams isn't a punk about this and gets a fair contract without it becoming an issue.

He's our future (and present) in the secondary but if he's going after Top 5 position money we might have a problem.

[TheCheese]

Man, I really hope Williams isn't a punk about this and gets a fair contract without it becoming an issue.

He's our future (and present) in the secondary but if he's going after Top 5 position money we might have a problem.

He deserves top 5 money though. Name 5 cornerbacks in the NFL playing better than him.

[Bretsky]

Man, I really hope Williams isn't a punk about this and gets a fair contract without it becoming an issue.

He's our future (and present) in the secondary but if he's going after Top 5 position money we might have a problem.

He deserves top 5 money though. Name 5 cornerbacks in the NFL playing better than him.


Revis
Cromartie
Bailey
Asomugha
Samuel

[The Leaper]

Not sure the kid is a top 5 CB yet. I think he has an argument in the top 10. Thompson has thrown way too much money at the aging veterans on the team who won't bring much in return for that cash. About time he tosses money at someone younger with potential.

I think the Packers offer is a fair starting point...$6M per seems right for a kid who is playing well, but doesn't have that long of a track record of great play.

[ThunderDan]

Not sure the kid is a top 5 CB yet. I think he has an argument in the top 10. Thompson has thrown way too much money at the aging veterans on the team who won't bring much in return for that cash. About time he tosses money at someone younger with potential.

I think the Packers offer is a fair starting point...$6M per seems right for a kid who is playing well, but doesn't have that long of a track record of great play.

That's my thought exactly. Go to Tramon with a 4 year $28 million contract and say if you out perform the deal because you are young and a potential leader of our D we will rework the deal for you. You are our future and we want to make sure you are well taken care of. (Just don't get injuried!)

[steve823]

He won't sign that, and he shouldn't. I'd be happy if we got him locked up with 8 mil a year. Hes worth it.

Don't jump to conclusions. He's playing great this year and I'll be the first one to say it. I've actually had a few arguments with friends on how good he is playing. BUT this is still only one year and he is still unproven. 6 million a year with incentives is right, maybe a little more if they can frontload the contract.

[Brando19]

Man, I really hope Williams isn't a punk about this and gets a fair contract without it becoming an issue.

He's our future (and present) in the secondary but if he's going after Top 5 position money we might have a problem.

He deserves top 5 money though. Name 5 cornerbacks in the NFL playing better than him.


Revis
Cromartie
Bailey
Asomugha
Samuel

I'm not sure Asante Samuel is playing better than Tramon...but I would put Brandon Flowers in there.

[mission]

Man, I really hope Williams isn't a punk about this and gets a fair contract without it becoming an issue.

He's our future (and present) in the secondary but if he's going after Top 5 position money we might have a problem.

He deserves top 5 money though. Name 5 cornerbacks in the NFL playing better than him.


Revis
Cromartie
Bailey
Asomugha
Samuel

I'm not sure Asante Samuel is playing better than Tramon...but I would put Brandon Flowers in there.

Agreed with all of that. But just because you're playing like a top 5 (or 6) corner doesn't mean you get a top 5 guaranteed contract. If Williams had three years at this level then no doubt but he hasn't been dominant until this season.

I'd say offer him 5 / 32m with incentives that could have him at around 8.5 million if he outplays his contract. How TT did the Grant deal.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Man, I really hope Williams isn't a punk about this and gets a fair contract without it becoming an issue.

He's our future (and present) in the secondary but if he's going after Top 5 position money we might have a problem.

He deserves top 5 money though. Name 5 cornerbacks in the NFL playing better than him.


Revis
Cromartie
Bailey
Asomugha
Samuel

I'm not sure Asante Samuel is playing better than Tramon...but I would put Brandon Flowers in there.

Agreed with all of that. But just because you're playing like a top 5 corner doesn't mean you get a top 5 guaranteed contract. If Williams had three years at this level then no doubt but he hasn't been dominant until this season.

I'd say offer him 5 / 32m with incentives that could have him at around 8.5 million if he outplays his contract. How TT did the Grant deal.

100% agree with Mission. He has not played at a top level for very long. You have to prove you are that good over a couple years, not a couple games. I agree that he is playing at a top 10 level, but I don't think he should get top ten money. If he really thinks he is that good he should sign a 3 year 18 mil deal. He will still be young enough to cash in on a larger deal in about another two years.

[Brandon494]

Man, I really hope Williams isn't a punk about this and gets a fair contract without it becoming an issue.

He's our future (and present) in the secondary but if he's going after Top 5 position money we might have a problem.

He deserves top 5 money though. Name 5 cornerbacks in the NFL playing better than him.

7 games and now hes a top 5 CB? :roll:

Thats more than enough money, just depends if he wants to stay in GB.

[vince]

It's tougher to incentivize (based on game production) a CB contract than a RB's. Tramon has paid his dues, been a good soldier, and is now entering his prime years. I think TT will sign him to a deal closer to $8 mil./yr. than $6, or he won't get him signed.

Whatever deal he signs will quickly be dwarfed by other deals. What's Asamougha getting? $15 mil./yr.?

Tramon is in a good spot with the aging Wood and possibly over-the-hill Harris being the only other proven commodities at a vital position.

[mmmdk]

It's tougher to incentivize (based on game production) a CB contract than a RB's. Tramon has paid his dues, been a good soldier, and is now entering his prime years. I think TT will sign him to a deal closer to $8 mil./yr. than $6, or he won't get him signed.

Whatever deal he signs will quickly be dwarfed by other deals. What's Asamougha getting? $15 mil./yr.?

Tramon is in a good spot with the aging Wood and possibly over-the-hill Harris being the only other proven commodities at a vital position.

Tramon is worth it - super trooper!

[mission]

It's tougher to incentivize (based on game production) a CB contract than a RB's.

Good point. I thought about that, especially since some of these guys are so shutdown that balls never come their way and really nothing happens. Hard(er) to quantify that.

[gbgary]

he'll be gone if tt tries to get him on the cheap...then we'll be in real trouble.

[Iron Mike]

He was on the Jim Rome show yesterday, so of course, he's gonna want the extra $....

[ThunderDan]

he'll be gone if tt tries to get him on the cheap...then we'll be in real trouble.

TT pays his players that perform. He has shown that over and over again.

[vince]

Joe Whitt isn't doing Teddy any favors here. He should be Tramon's agent.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/106358368.html

"Show me a corner having a better year," said Joe Whitt, the team's cornerbacks coach. "Name one. At the corner position, he's outplayed all of them."

Whitt makes it a point each week to watch tape of the top-rated cornerbacks. If Williams can sustain his level of play of the past seven weeks through 16 weeks, Whitt says he would be deserving of the Pro Bowl.

Williams has been responsible for one play of 20 yards or more and no touchdown passes, and has drawn one penalty. Those are the marks of a shutdown cornerback.

"You want quarterbacks, guys who can protect quarterbacks and a guy that can cover," Whitt said. "Those are the guys that get really paid. I'm not about getting him paid. But, if he can really take away a No. 1 (wide receiver), the value has to be high. As long as I'm coaching here, I would love to be coaching him."

[TheCheese]

It's tougher to incentivize (based on game production) a CB contract than a RB's. Tramon has paid his dues, been a good soldier, and is now entering his prime years. I think TT will sign him to a deal closer to $8 mil./yr. than $6, or he won't get him signed.

Whatever deal he signs will quickly be dwarfed by other deals. What's Asamougha getting? $15 mil./yr.?

Tramon is in a good spot with the aging Wood and possibly over-the-hill Harris being the only other proven commodities at a vital position.

Good to see someone looking at this the right way. From Tramon's perspective he knows he can get more, and he will. Ted knows this and is aware he won't be able to get him cheap. It will be around 8 mil a year.

A great cover corner is going to command a premium wage. Grant was rewarded after a half a season and you people don't think Tramon won't be? Get real. If anything Tramon has more of a model citizen history with us than Grant was, and hes got the play to back it up. Consider the declining play of Woodson and Harris due to age and there is no way Ted lets him walk unless hes asking for Revis/Aso money.

It really shouldn't be too hard to see, theres no way Tramon accepts that contract offer. Like I said, he shouldn't.

Also to who suggested Cromartie is playing better than Tramon, have you been watching the Jets games? Wait till tomorrow morning and you tell me if hes been playing better. The reason you are hearing about how good hes playing is because of where he was in the past, garbage. Now hes playing a lot better, but not top 5 cb so far.

And so far this year, due to injury, Tramon has also been playing better than Revis who has been a liability. We will see how much he jumps back to form this upcoming game due to him having the extra time to heal up. Samuel also hasn't been top 5 this year. He gives up way too much underneath, and gambles too much.

[TheCheese]

Joe Whitt isn't doing Teddy any favors here. He should be Tramon's agent.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/106358368.html

"Show me a corner having a better year," said Joe Whitt, the team's cornerbacks coach. "Name one. At the corner position, he's outplayed all of them."

Whitt makes it a point each week to watch tape of the top-rated cornerbacks. If Williams can sustain his level of play of the past seven weeks through 16 weeks, Whitt says he would be deserving of the Pro Bowl.

Williams has been responsible for one play of 20 yards or more and no touchdown passes, and has drawn one penalty. Those are the marks of a shutdown cornerback.

"You want quarterbacks, guys who can protect quarterbacks and a guy that can cover," Whitt said. "Those are the guys that get really paid. I'm not about getting him paid. But, if he can really take away a No. 1 (wide receiver), the value has to be high. As long as I'm coaching here, I would love to be coaching him."

As I stated, he will get paid a premium wage.

[RashanGary]

I'm guessing he gets 6.5 mil per year. 5 Years, 32.5 mil with about 8 up front.

[pbmax]

Man, I really hope Williams isn't a punk about this and gets a fair contract without it becoming an issue.

He's our future (and present) in the secondary but if he's going after Top 5 position money we might have a problem.

He deserves top 5 money though. Name 5 cornerbacks in the NFL playing better than him.


Revis
Cromartie
Bailey
Asomugha
Samuel
Bailey is having a tough year. Samuel is declining and almost was replaced on his own team. At one point last year, I don't think he started. Tramon may not deserve top five money, but he is not far off from that level. It will be an interesting bet on his part. He probably would get more, but there may be not football. He also could get squeezed if UFA rules change from 4 years accrued service in the next CBA.

If Tramon is worried about those issues, he might bite on less.

[Guiness]

I was waiting for someone to bring up the fact that Revis has been a liability this year - not as bad as CWood, but his play has fallen off, due to injury and some other reasons (got his money, got lazy?)

Samuel is indeed declining, and (Champ) Bailey is on the downside of his career as well.

Who are the top 5 CB's in the league right now? I really don't know...Asomugha is the only shoo-in, as far as I'm concerned.

pbmax is also quite right that this is a good year to lock up some players. Remember Tramon wanted more money at the beginning of this season as well, but signed. With the chance of no football next year, that bonus money has to look really tempting.

[The Leaper]

I agree he's having a good year so far. He also has yet to face any offense (or WR) that is scary good through the air. Rankings in passing yardage/QB rating:

Philly - 8th/6th
Washington - 9th/23rd
Detroit - 13th/21st
Chicago - 16th/29th
Miami - 17th/20th
Buffalo - 26th/13th
Minnesota - 27th/30th

Look at the QB ratings on the offenses we've faced. Clearly, Tramon hasn't been playing against elite passing competition to this point. Only 2 teams above 20th in QB rating...and one of those is Buffalo. Philly is the only competent passing offense we've faced thus far.

Sorry, but I'm not about to hand him a Pro Bowl berth just yet...regardless of what any coach says. I like Tramon...I'd love for him to remain a Packer long term...but I ain't breaking the bank yet for 7 games against mediocre competition. Starting at around $6M is fair IMO...and if Tramon keeps up the great play for a 16 game season, then his price tag can go up.

[mission]

I agree he's having a good year so far. He also has yet to face any offense (or WR) that is scary good through the air. Rankings in passing yardage/QB rating:

Philly - 8th/6th
Washington - 9th/23rd
Detroit - 13th/21st
Chicago - 16th/29th
Miami - 17th/20th
Buffalo - 26th/13th
Minnesota - 27th/30th

Look at the QB ratings on the offenses we've faced. Clearly, Tramon hasn't been playing against elite passing competition to this point. Only 2 teams above 20th in QB rating...and one of those is Buffalo. Philly is the only competent passing offense we've faced thus far.

Sorry, but I'm not about to hand him a Pro Bowl berth just yet...regardless of what any coach says. I like Tramon...I'd love for him to remain a Packer long term...but I ain't breaking the bank yet for 7 games against mediocre competition. Starting at around $6M is fair IMO...and if Tramon keeps up the great play for a 16 game season, then his price tag can go up.

Philly, Chicago and Minnesota were supposed to pass all over us. Never happened. Months ago, all anybody wanted to talk about was the AZ game and how we can't stop a passing attack. It didn't take very long for us to forget about all of that... T-Will is a huge part of it.. especially with Woodson playing up and down.

He's shut down each team's top receiving threat with maybe the Miami game being somewhat of an exception.

[The Leaper]

Who are the top 5 CB's in the league right now? I really don't know...Asomugha is the only shoo-in, as far as I'm concerned.

It does seem like we are in the midst of a changing of the guard at CB. A lot of the big names from the last 4-5 years are starting to hit the downside of their careers. However, I think there are a lot of very talented kids with less than 5 years of experience that are very comparable to Tramon...some even probably better at this point. Think Brandon Flowers, Ron Bartell (yeah, the Rams have a very good young CB) or Aqib Talib.

[Tarlam!]

Thompson has thrown way too much money at the aging veterans on the team who won't bring much in return for that cash.

About time he tosses money at someone younger with potential.


Leaper, I disagree with the red. Almost everybody lauded TT for giving Tascher, Cliffy Chuck, Harris and DD bumps in their salaries. Obviously, only cliffy is playing well.

But these contract also have great PR value for the youngens they want to keep, clearly signalling the Packers brass take care of their own. And it's not said that the other guys can't pick up their games, especially if A-Rod gets his game firing and guys like Chuck and Al aren't on the field for long stretches.

I agree with what I bolded in Green fully.

[Tarlam!]

It's tougher to incentivize (based on game production) a CB contract than a RB's.

I agree with this, Vince, but IIRC, TT incentivzed Chuck's very first contract heavily e.g. number of games played, mostly because Chuck had a strong injury record. Now, Chuck didn't want to come to Green Bay by his own admission and no other teams came calling, so he had to take the deal.

I'm not sure what other incentives were in the deal, but I'm pretty certain it was incentive laden, because dounbt remained around the league whether he'd be motivated and successful.

[bobblehead]

Thompson has thrown way too much money at the aging veterans on the team who won't bring much in return for that cash. .

this has got to be the first time this has been uttered on this board (not that I'm disagreeing).

[Cheesehead Craig]

Not sure the kid is a top 5 CB yet. I think he has an argument in the top 10. Thompson has thrown way too much money at the aging veterans on the team who won't bring much in return for that cash. About time he tosses money at someone younger with potential.

I think the Packers offer is a fair starting point...$6M per seems right for a kid who is playing well, but doesn't have that long of a track record of great play.
Solid post. Agree 100%.

[Guiness]

Who are the top 5 CB's in the league right now? I really don't know...Asomugha is the only shoo-in, as far as I'm concerned.

It does seem like we are in the midst of a changing of the guard at CB. A lot of the big names from the last 4-5 years are starting to hit the downside of their careers. However, I think there are a lot of very talented kids with less than 5 years of experience that are very comparable to Tramon...some even probably better at this point. Think Brandon Flowers, Ron Bartell (yeah, the Rams have a very good young CB) or Aqib Talib.

Aquib - there's a guy I like.

Flowers, eh? I remember wanting the Packers would take him, then we traded out of the first round. Looked like we might end up with him anyways, but he went a pick before us, and we got Nelson. Of course, he's 5'10", so he might not been considered tall enough. I remember a few CB's went before him, including McKelvin for Buffalo, who hasn't done much other than special teams.

Agreed that there's a changing of the guard, both on the Packers and across the league.

[MJZiggy]

Thompson has thrown way too much money at the aging veterans on the team who won't bring much in return for that cash. .

this has got to be the first time this has been uttered on this board (not that I'm disagreeing).

I know. All we've been hearing for years is that TT won't open his wallet for veterans and that he wants to always have the youngest team in the league. Now he catches hell for signing vets... :?:

[ThunderDan]

Thompson has thrown way too much money at the aging veterans on the team who won't bring much in return for that cash. .

this has got to be the first time this has been uttered on this board (not that I'm disagreeing).

I know. All we've been hearing for years is that TT won't open his wallet for veterans and that he wants to always have the youngest team in the league. Now he catches hell for signing vets... :?:

TT is a fucker!! He's trying to ruin the team with rookies and aging veterans. Bastard!!! :lol: :lol:

[retailguy]

Thompson has thrown way too much money at the aging veterans on the team who won't bring much in return for that cash. .

this has got to be the first time this has been uttered on this board (not that I'm disagreeing).

I know. All we've been hearing for years is that TT won't open his wallet for veterans and that he wants to always have the youngest team in the league. Now he catches hell for signing vets... :?:

Well, this is just slightly out of context. :wink: But that really doesn't matter when defending "he who shall not be criticized". :idea: Anything goes to make that defense! :twisted:

[MJZiggy]

Thompson has thrown way too much money at the aging veterans on the team who won't bring much in return for that cash. .

this has got to be the first time this has been uttered on this board (not that I'm disagreeing).

I know. All we've been hearing for years is that TT won't open his wallet for veterans and that he wants to always have the youngest team in the league. Now he catches hell for signing vets... :?:

Well, this is just slightly out of context. :wink: But that really doesn't matter when defending "he who shall not be criticized". :idea: Anything goes to make that defense! :twisted:

Explain to me how it's out of context, please...I don't see how other team's vets are different from our vets except that ours already know the system and we already know how they perform in that system. An experienced veteran is an experienced veteran.

[retailguy]

Simple. For years several have been complaining about the lack of free agents coming in here to compete. Now you compare locking up our veterans to the complaints against OTHER TEAMS free agent veterans. Do you really think that's the basis of the complaint?

But, hey, it's ok. Ted could become the next Jeffrey Dahmer and some here would defend him. It's ok, I get it.

In this instance, I don't even agree with Leapers point, but I knew, that not a page would go by before someone would jump in and defend old Ted.

"He who shall not be criticized" MUST be defended, even if we have to do it out of context, because at the end of the day there are ZERO valid reasons to criticize the guy.

[mission]

Simple. For years several have been complaining about the lack of free agents coming in here to compete. Now you compare locking up our veterans to the complaints against OTHER TEAMS free agent veterans. Do you really think that's the basis of the complaint?

But, hey, it's ok. Ted could become the next Jeffrey Dahmer and some here would defend him. It's ok, I get it.

In this instance, I don't even agree with Leapers point, but I knew, that not a page would go by before someone would jump in and defend old Ted.

"He who shall not be criticized" MUST be defended, even if we have to do it out of context, because at the end of the day there are ZERO valid reasons to criticize the guy.

There's no such thing as OTHER TEAMS free agent veterans.

We signed the best FA LT this offseason. That's the only way to it. Sorry. :)

[retailguy]

Simple. For years several have been complaining about the lack of free agents coming in here to compete. Now you compare locking up our veterans to the complaints against OTHER TEAMS free agent veterans. Do you really think that's the basis of the complaint?

But, hey, it's ok. Ted could become the next Jeffrey Dahmer and some here would defend him. It's ok, I get it.

In this instance, I don't even agree with Leapers point, but I knew, that not a page would go by before someone would jump in and defend old Ted.

"He who shall not be criticized" MUST be defended, even if we have to do it out of context, because at the end of the day there are ZERO valid reasons to criticize the guy.

There's no such thing as OTHER TEAMS free agent veterans.

We signed the best FA LT this offseason. That's the only way to it. Sorry. :)

Exactly my point.

And I would add that we got the worlds best free agent punter this year too. If you don't believe me, just rewatch his punt from the game in overtime. It was simply MONEY, well for the other team anyhow.

At a critical juncture like that, you CANNOT get better than that!

[Bretsky]

I gave credit to TT for bringing back Tauscher and Clifton; those were great moves. Ditto for Driver and Harris.

But TT is not above criticicm and I'm not going to join in on the general sarcastic tones toward those who question him

[retailguy]

I gave credit to TT for bringing back Tauscher and Clifton; those were great moves. Ditto for Driver and Harris.

But TT is not above criticicm and I'm not going to join in on the general sarcastic tones toward those who question him

That's fine Bretsky, I understand.

I'll gladly return to the back of the bus on this topic, if ANYONE can point to one decision that Ted made that hasn't been defended. Just one.

There is no valid reason to criticize "he who shall not be criticized".

[MJZiggy]

Simple. For years several have been complaining about the lack of free agents coming in here to compete. Now you compare locking up our veterans to the complaints against OTHER TEAMS free agent veterans. Do you really think that's the basis of the complaint?

But, hey, it's ok. Ted could become the next Jeffrey Dahmer and some here would defend him. It's ok, I get it.

In this instance, I don't even agree with Leapers point, but I knew, that not a page would go by before someone would jump in and defend old Ted.

"He who shall not be criticized" MUST be defended, even if we have to do it out of context, because at the end of the day there are ZERO valid reasons to criticize the guy.

There's no such thing as OTHER TEAMS free agent veterans.

We signed the best FA LT this offseason. That's the only way to it. Sorry. :)

Exactly my point.

And I would add that we got the worlds best free agent punter this year too. If you don't believe me, just rewatch his punt from the game in overtime. It was simply MONEY, well for the other team anyhow.

At a critical juncture like that, you CANNOT get better than that!

Mastay is a seasoned vet? I know all the people TT has resigned were. Nice strawman, but it doesn't change the fact that TT has signed a couple pro bowl vets and NOW he's being criticized for it. Which of the other teams' castoffs was a better CB than Al when he was extended?

[retailguy]

respectfully Zig. You're the one with the strawman here.

[MJZiggy]

respectfully Zig. You're the one with the strawman here.

No I'm not. Our vets are as good or better than other team's castoffs. Our guys are free agents that just never made it to free agency. They are the same players. You can't criticize TT for not signing other teams old players and then criticize him for signing our own older players. Doesn't work. Sorry.

[retailguy]

respectfully Zig. You're the one with the strawman here.

No I'm not.

I guess this is where I say "are too! are too!".

But seriously. Bringing in an experienced vet at a position of limited or questionable depth is not the same thing as locking up a position with solid depth with our own veteran who has played well. And it never will be the same thing.

That point was made based on the lack of depth and dislike of a rookie. It just isn't the same thing.

Leapers point was based on declining play of an existing veteran. Something you couldn't know until AFTER the player inks the deal. See folks here think that Ted does well at "predicting" other players faults and drop offs. But realistically, when you lock up your own and can't see the faults, it makes it clear and definitive that predicting this stuff is an inexact science.

[MJZiggy]

respectfully Zig. You're the one with the strawman here.

No I'm not.

I guess this is where I say "are too! are too!".

But seriously. Bringing in an experienced vet at a position of limited or questionable depth is not the same thing as locking up a position with solid depth with our own veteran who has played well. And it never will be the same thing.

That point was made based on the lack of depth and dislike of a rookie. It just isn't the same thing.

Leapers point was based on declining play of an existing veteran. Something you couldn't know until AFTER the player inks the deal. See folks here think that Ted does well at "predicting" other players faults and drop offs. But realistically, when you lock up your own and can't see the faults, it makes it clear and definitive that predicting this stuff is an inexact science.

And you knew Al would end up on IR how? We knew Chuck would struggle this year how (recalling that Chuck himself said if he couldn't play corner anymore he'd play safety)? You can't have a whole team of high priced vets and I'd say I'd rather have the guys that we have than some of those folks around here have been clamoring for. Let's remember how all those vets you guys have wanted played for their new teams. Who wanted Haynesworth (Washington's $100 million backup)? Frankly, I want Thompson to lock up ALL of our GOOD players, not just the vets or the youth.

[retailguy]

And you knew Al would end up on IR how? We knew Chuck would struggle this year how (recalling that Chuck himself said if he couldn't play corner anymore he'd play safety)? You can't have a whole team of high priced vets and I'd say I'd rather have the guys that we have than some of those folks around here have been clamoring for. Let's remember how all those vets you guys have wanted played for their new teams. Who wanted Haynesworth (Washington's $100 million backup)? Frankly, I want Thompson to lock up ALL of our GOOD players, not just the vets or the youth.

Ok. Now you're making my point. In my first post, or pretty close to it, I said I didn't agree with Leapers point.

What I objected to, was your defense of Ted by comparing our veterans to other free agents and calling them the same thing.

They aren't.

For several years we played with questionable depth when better free agents were available. We chose not to pursue those, and we paid a price for it, and sometimes we didn't notice the difference and developed a suitable alternative. For several years our OL sucked. For several years our punter has sucked. This season our LB depth was questionable. There were people we could have brought in but we didn't. It's the way Ted does things. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes injuries get in the way, and sometimes they haven't.

These decisions just aren't the same thing as locking up Clifton, Harris, or whomever.

My real point of contention is that there is nothing that you don't defend when it comes to "he who shall not be criticized".

Your post above? I completely agree with, and have always said that I do.

[MJZiggy]

I gave credit to TT for bringing back Tauscher and Clifton; those were great moves. Ditto for Driver and Harris.

But TT is not above criticicm and I'm not going to join in on the general sarcastic tones toward those who question him

That's fine Bretsky, I understand.

I'll gladly return to the back of the bus on this topic, if ANYONE can point to one decision that Ted made that hasn't been defended. Just one.

There is no valid reason to criticize "he who shall not be criticized".

Switching punters after last camp. WTF? I don't recall any non-head scratching after that one?

[MJZiggy]

And you knew Al would end up on IR how? We knew Chuck would struggle this year how (recalling that Chuck himself said if he couldn't play corner anymore he'd play safety)? You can't have a whole team of high priced vets and I'd say I'd rather have the guys that we have than some of those folks around here have been clamoring for. Let's remember how all those vets you guys have wanted played for their new teams. Who wanted Haynesworth (Washington's $100 million backup)? Frankly, I want Thompson to lock up ALL of our GOOD players, not just the vets or the youth.

Ok. Now you're making my point. In my first post, or pretty close to it, I said I didn't agree with Leapers point.

What I objected to, was your defense of Ted by comparing our veterans to other free agents and calling them the same thing.

They aren't.

For several years we played with questionable depth when better free agents were available. We chose not to pursue those, and we paid a price for it, and sometimes we didn't notice the difference and developed a suitable alternative. For several years our OL sucked. For several years our punter has sucked. This season our LB depth was questionable. There were people we could have brought in but we didn't. It's the way Ted does things. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes injuries get in the way, and sometimes they haven't.

These decisions just aren't the same thing as locking up Clifton, Harris, or whomever.

My real point of contention is that there is nothing that you don't defend when it comes to "he who shall not be criticized".

Your post above? I completely agree with, and have always said that I do.

I do consider it the same thing. Free agents come with a high price tag. That price tag has the serious potential to prevent us locking up players like Jennings and DD and Al. If TT believes there's a Tramon Williams worth developing than signing a high priced castoff becomes even more expensive. How many of the kids he's signed wouldn't be here right now? Therefore I don't believe that he deserved the criticism for not signing free agents then and you're calling our guys old and ineffective. What the hell do you think all those other teams' FAs are: old and ineffective. I simply ain't buying the logic. Our old guys > their old guys.

[retailguy]

I gave credit to TT for bringing back Tauscher and Clifton; those were great moves. Ditto for Driver and Harris.

But TT is not above criticicm and I'm not going to join in on the general sarcastic tones toward those who question him

That's fine Bretsky, I understand.

I'll gladly return to the back of the bus on this topic, if ANYONE can point to one decision that Ted made that hasn't been defended. Just one.

There is no valid reason to criticize "he who shall not be criticized".

Switching punters after last camp. WTF? I don't recall any non-head scratching after that one?

You and I have different recollections of that. I remember a spirited defense of "it's just a punter". "Frost is just as good". "Ryan wasn't reliable".

[retailguy]

I do consider it the same thing. Free agents come with a high price tag. That price tag has the serious potential to prevent us locking up players like Jennings and DD and Al. If TT believes there's a Tramon Williams worth developing than signing a high priced castoff becomes even more expensive. How many of the kids he's signed wouldn't be here right now? Therefore I don't believe that he deserved the criticism for not signing free agents then and you're calling our guys old and ineffective. What the hell do you think all those other teams' FAs are: old and ineffective. I simply ain't buying the logic. Our old guys > their old guys.

I know you consider it the same thing. I don't. We disagree.

I understand the "high priced free agent" argument, and agree with that for the most part. There were plenty of free agents that didn't get ridiculous money. We didn't get any of them either.

We just don't pursue free agents heavily. It just isn't the make up of the way Ted does things. On an occasional basis if someone strikes his fancy we might try, and once in a while we get one, but it isn't a "focus".

I see benefits and I see drawbacks to that. But if you discuss a drawback? dirty pool. Or worse, 20 reasons why you got it wrong.

You just can't criticize the guy.

[MJZiggy]

I do consider it the same thing. Free agents come with a high price tag. That price tag has the serious potential to prevent us locking up players like Jennings and DD and Al. If TT believes there's a Tramon Williams worth developing than signing a high priced castoff becomes even more expensive. How many of the kids he's signed wouldn't be here right now? Therefore I don't believe that he deserved the criticism for not signing free agents then and you're calling our guys old and ineffective. What the hell do you think all those other teams' FAs are: old and ineffective. I simply ain't buying the logic. Our old guys > their old guys.

I know you consider it the same thing. I don't. We disagree.

I understand the "high priced free agent" argument, and agree with that for the most part. There were plenty of free agents that didn't get ridiculous money. We didn't get any of them either.

We just don't pursue free agents heavily. It just isn't the make up of the way Ted does things. On an occasional basis if someone strikes his fancy we might try, and once in a while we get one, but it isn't a "focus".

I see benefits and I see drawbacks to that. But if you discuss a drawback? dirty pool. Or worse, 20 reasons why you got it wrong.

You just can't criticize the guy.

Yes you can, but if you're hypocritical about it because he can do nothing RIGHT in your eyes (not yours, leaper's). I'll call that out. To me this is a SUPREME example of hypocrisy by criticizing the age of the players no matter what the age of the players he signs is. He only signs kids, he NEVER signs veterans. He signs a few veterans, it's about time he offers some money to a young player with upside rather than these aging ineffective players. So how's he supposed to win in this argument? Please tell me.

[retailguy]

Yes you can, but if you're hypocritical about it because he can do nothing RIGHT in your eyes (not yours, leaper's). I'll call that out. To me this is a SUPREME example of hypocrisy by criticizing the age of the players no matter what the age of the players he signs is. He only signs kids, he NEVER signs veterans. He signs a few veterans, it's about time he offers some money to a young player with upside rather than these aging ineffective players. So how's he supposed to win in this argument? Please tell me.

Well, I can't speak for leaper, but I think it's bigger than that at this point. Honestly, I doubt that anyone believes that Thompson can't "do anything right". I certainly don't. I've said time and time again that he's a great talent evaluator for example.

That being said, anytime that you bring up any decision that Ted's made, you are summarily attacked with "facts", "statistics", "supposition", and reasons why you have to be wrong. There is no valid reason to criticize the guy.

FWIW, I think you're spending a lot of time defending a guy that doesn't give a shit what we think. It's why he gets the big bucks and makes the big decisions. He'll live or die by them, and as fans, so will we.

I just maintain that he isn't perfect, and he makes his share of mistakes. No one is "allowed" to discuss those mistakes here. That's all I was saying in this thread.

You and I had a pretty good conversation. Over the coming days, one of two things will happen.

1 - Every point that I made will be dissected, analyzed and all those reasons I talked about will be brought to the surface.

2 - No one will say anything.

In any event our good discussion will not continue on a larger level.

[vince]

Very little of ANYTHING around here is said that somebody (different people) doesn't disagree with. Why complain about it?

[denverYooper]

I agree he's having a good year so far. He also has yet to face any offense (or WR) that is scary good through the air. Rankings in passing yardage/QB rating:

Philly - 8th/6th
Washington - 9th/23rd
Detroit - 13th/21st
Chicago - 16th/29th
Miami - 17th/20th
Buffalo - 26th/13th
Minnesota - 27th/30th

Look at the QB ratings on the offenses we've faced. Clearly, Tramon hasn't been playing against elite passing competition to this point. Only 2 teams above 20th in QB rating...and one of those is Buffalo. Philly is the only competent passing offense we've faced thus far.

Sorry, but I'm not about to hand him a Pro Bowl berth just yet...regardless of what any coach says. I like Tramon...I'd love for him to remain a Packer long term...but I ain't breaking the bank yet for 7 games against mediocre competition. Starting at around $6M is fair IMO...and if Tramon keeps up the great play for a 16 game season, then his price tag can go up.

Philly, Chicago and Minnesota were supposed to pass all over us. Never happened. Months ago, all anybody wanted to talk about was the AZ game and how we can't stop a passing attack. It didn't take very long for us to forget about all of that... T-Will is a huge part of it.. especially with Woodson playing up and down.

He's shut down each team's top receiving threat with maybe the Miami game being somewhat of an exception.

I'm with Mish on this one. We keep facing teams that are supposed to take apart the "questionable" secondary and those guys, Tramon especially, keep playing at an elite level.

[Joemailman]

I gave credit to TT for bringing back Tauscher and Clifton; those were great moves. Ditto for Driver and Harris.

But TT is not above criticicm and I'm not going to join in on the general sarcastic tones toward those who question him

That's fine Bretsky, I understand.

I'll gladly return to the back of the bus on this topic, if ANYONE can point to one decision that Ted made that hasn't been defended. Just one.

There is no valid reason to criticize "he who shall not be criticized".

There probably hasn't been one. We debate things here. There's been about 550,000 posts on this site. Odds are there will be someone to defend any decision TT makes.

[MJZiggy]

I gave credit to TT for bringing back Tauscher and Clifton; those were great moves. Ditto for Driver and Harris.

But TT is not above criticicm and I'm not going to join in on the general sarcastic tones toward those who question him

That's fine Bretsky, I understand.

I'll gladly return to the back of the bus on this topic, if ANYONE can point to one decision that Ted made that hasn't been defended. Just one.

There is no valid reason to criticize "he who shall not be criticized".

There probably hasn't been one. We debate things here. There's been about 550,000 posts on this site. Odds are there will be someone to defend any decision TT makes.

There will also be someone to criticize it...:mrgreen:

[gbgary]

I gave credit to TT for bringing back Tauscher and Clifton; those were great moves. Ditto for Driver and Harris.

But TT is not above criticicm and I'm not going to join in on the general sarcastic tones toward those who question him

That's fine Bretsky, I understand.

I'll gladly return to the back of the bus on this topic, if ANYONE can point to one decision that Ted made that hasn't been defended. Just one.

There is no valid reason to criticize "he who shall not be criticized".

There probably hasn't been one. We debate things here. There's been about 550,000 posts on this site. Odds are there will be someone to defend any decision TT makes.

sure there is...mm. :D

[Guiness]

And you knew Al would end up on IR how? We knew Chuck would struggle this year how (recalling that Chuck himself said if he couldn't play corner anymore he'd play safety)? You can't have a whole team of high priced vets and I'd say I'd rather have the guys that we have than some of those folks around here have been clamoring for. Let's remember how all those vets you guys have wanted played for their new teams. Who wanted Haynesworth (Washington's $100 million backup)? Frankly, I want Thompson to lock up ALL of our GOOD players, not just the vets or the youth.


WHOA!!!!!!!!!

Was that a 'what if'? Al (Harris, right?) is on the IR? That happened when?

[MJZiggy]

And you knew Al would end up on IR how? We knew Chuck would struggle this year how (recalling that Chuck himself said if he couldn't play corner anymore he'd play safety)? You can't have a whole team of high priced vets and I'd say I'd rather have the guys that we have than some of those folks around here have been clamoring for. Let's remember how all those vets you guys have wanted played for their new teams. Who wanted Haynesworth (Washington's $100 million backup)? Frankly, I want Thompson to lock up ALL of our GOOD players, not just the vets or the youth.


WHOA!!!!!!!!!

Was that a 'what if'? Al (Harris, right?) is on the IR? That happened when?

Read the quote that that post was responding to. Apparently TT was supposed to know everything that would go wrong with every player he resigned. So apparently TT was supposed to know when he extended Harris that he would wind up on IR and not resign him, right?

[Zool]

I'll gladly return to the back of the bus on this topic, if ANYONE can point to one decision that Ted made that hasn't been defended. Just one.

This will happen about the same time he makes a move that's not criticized. The rest of us in the middle just sit back and watch the gifted few argue.

[Guiness]

And you knew Al would end up on IR how? We knew Chuck would struggle this year how (recalling that Chuck himself said if he couldn't play corner anymore he'd play safety)? You can't have a whole team of high priced vets and I'd say I'd rather have the guys that we have than some of those folks around here have been clamoring for. Let's remember how all those vets you guys have wanted played for their new teams. Who wanted Haynesworth (Washington's $100 million backup)? Frankly, I want Thompson to lock up ALL of our GOOD players, not just the vets or the youth.


WHOA!!!!!!!!!

Was that a 'what if'? Al (Harris, right?) is on the IR? That happened when?

Read the quote that that post was responding to. Apparently TT was supposed to know everything that would go wrong with every player he resigned. So apparently TT was supposed to know when he extended Harris that he would wind up on IR and not resign him, right?

Ok, I'd skipped most of the argument, and only read the what was directly quoted. I thought Harris had slipped onto the IR while I had a nap!

[bobblehead]

I'll gladly return to the back of the bus on this topic, if ANYONE can point to one decision that Ted made that hasn't been defended. Just one.

This will happen about the same time he makes a move that's not criticized. The rest of us in the middle just sit back and watch the gifted few argue.

Is that similar to not offering an opinion so you can criticize everyone else in hindsight?

[mraynrand]

Yes you can, but if you're hypocritical about it because he can do nothing RIGHT in your eyes (not yours, leaper's). I'll call that out. To me this is a SUPREME example of hypocrisy by criticizing the age of the players no matter what the age of the players he signs is. He only signs kids, he NEVER signs veterans. He signs a few veterans, it's about time he offers some money to a young player with upside rather than these aging ineffective players. So how's he supposed to win in this argument? Please tell me.

Well, I can't speak for leaper, but I think it's bigger than that at this point. Honestly, I doubt that anyone believes that Thompson can't "do anything right". I certainly don't. I've said time and time again that he's a great talent evaluator for example.

That being said, anytime that you bring up any decision that Ted's made, you are summarily attacked with "facts", "statistics", "supposition", and reasons why you have to be wrong. There is no valid reason to criticize the guy.

FWIW, I think you're spending a lot of time defending a guy that doesn't give a shit what we think. It's why he gets the big bucks and makes the big decisions. He'll live or die by them, and as fans, so will we.

I just maintain that he isn't perfect, and he makes his share of mistakes. No one is "allowed" to discuss those mistakes here. That's all I was saying in this thread.

You and I had a pretty good conversation. Over the coming days, one of two things will happen.

1 - Every point that I made will be dissected, analyzed and all those reasons I talked about will be brought to the surface.

2 - No one will say anything.

In any event our good discussion will not continue on a larger level.


http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/364/satanlesbiansg6.jpg

[mraynrand]

Thompson has thrown way too much money at the aging veterans on the team who won't bring much in return for that cash. .

this has got to be the first time this has been uttered on this board (not that I'm disagreeing).

I know. All we've been hearing for years is that TT won't open his wallet for veterans and that he wants to always have the youngest team in the league. Now he catches hell for signing vets... :?:

Well, this is just slightly out of context. :wink: But that really doesn't matter when defending "he who shall not be criticized". :idea: Anything goes to make that defense! :twisted:

:bs:

[pbmax]

I gave credit to TT for bringing back Tauscher and Clifton; those were great moves. Ditto for Driver and Harris.

But TT is not above criticicm and I'm not going to join in on the general sarcastic tones toward those who question him
Its hindsight of course, but Tauscher now looks like bad money, doesn't he?

Even before the injury he was more turnstile than tackle. Of course, that would still place him ahead of Barbre. If Lang had not been hurt/rehabbing (and that alone might explain the new contract) I think Tausch would be the backup at RT.

[mraynrand]

I gave credit to TT for bringing back Tauscher and Clifton; those were great moves. Ditto for Driver and Harris.

But TT is not above criticicm and I'm not going to join in on the general sarcastic tones toward those who question him
Its hindsight of course, but Tauscher now looks like bad money, doesn't he?

Even before the injury he was more turnstile than tackle. Of course, that would still place him ahead of Barbre. If Lang had not been hurt/rehabbing (and that alone might explain the new contract) I think Tausch would be the backup at RT.

But how much money will it end up being?

Here's what I found:

The two-year contract Green Bay Packers right tackle Mark Tauscher agreed to over the weekend can earn him as much as $8.7 million in salary and bonuses.

Here's the breakdown, as passed along by my colleague Pete Dougherty:

* Tauscher will receive a $1.8 million roster bonus this year in addition to $1.4 million base salary.

* In 2011, his base salary jumps to $4.1 million.

* In each year, Tauscher can earn a $200,000 workout bonus and $500,000 in per-game roster bonuses.

All in all, that's pretty good scratch for 32-year-old who was a free agent for about seven months last year while recovering from ACL surgery. It basically matches the compensation he was receiving before the injury, making about $3.4 million in 2007 and $5 million in 2008.

-- Tom Pelissero, tpelisse@greenbaypressgazette.com
http://twitter.com/tompelissero


So I assume he gets the roster bonus and will make the 3.2 mil this year. OK , that's a bit steep for a backup, but TT was only guaranteeing 1.4 mil if he didn't make the roster. I agree it's too much given what's happened, but PB I think you made the correct points - Lang was questionable and Bulaga was an unknown. I still think the main problem may have been that TT didn't find a guy he could plug in there, but I don't recall a FA or trade possibility that significantly improved the tackle position. If anyone knows who they could have brought in that would have been worth that same Tausch money, I'd be interested hearing about them (not an in-your-face here, I just don't know).

[pbmax]

That being said, anytime that you bring up any decision that Ted's made, you are summarily attacked with "facts", "statistics", "supposition", and reasons why you have to be wrong. There is no valid reason to criticize the guy.
This is the part of the argument I do not understand. This is an internet message board; everyone has an opinion and generally is happy to bold it or type it in all caps. Of course every point you make is going to be challenged. That happens to everybody. And some on this board (who are unfortunately not as funny as the best) do take posts to a personal level.

Now, I do understand that not agreeing with Thompson's approach to UFAs may put you in the minority on that issue. But that doesn't mean there is no valid reason to criticize the guy.

But you need to stay with the critique. Don't give in and just lament the opposition to your view or drop backhanded compliments and snark. Restate the facts of the case. In the immortal words of Emmit Smith (mis)quoting Jim Valvano: "Don't quit. Don't even quit".

For instance, I am not leaving this message board until everyone agrees with me that the Packers should run only to confuse the defense and late in the game with a lead (right now its me, McCarthy and a stat major in Omaha). And, despite Masthay's results vs. the Jets, they should almost never punt.

[RashanGary]

Tramon Williams is playing fricking awesome. Since day one, that guy came in raw as hell and found ways to make plays on the ball. He's a tier below the very best. Cromartie is not better than Tramon Williams.

Revis, Woodson. . . Sure. . . There are better guys, but Williams is a probowl type talent. He's to CB's as Greg Jennings is to WR's. A frickin playmaker.

He'll get paid.



And Sam Shields looks natural too. He plays to his leverages, has all of the tools. . . He looks aggressive out there, people don't pick on him. We might have a good starting CB in the making with him too.

[pbmax]

Williams also played well when Harris was out healing his spleen. But when Harris came back, Williams struggled. Not sure if it was the new role or reduced snaps or disappointment at not winning the job, but its good to see him reclaim that level of performance.

I just hope that stretch doesn't repeat itself when Harris is moved to the active roster.

[MichiganPackerFan]

Man, I really hope Williams isn't a punk about this and gets a fair contract without it becoming an issue.

He's our future (and present) in the secondary but if he's going after Top 5 position money we might have a problem.

He deserves top 5 money though. Name 5 cornerbacks in the NFL playing better than him.


Revis
Cromartie
Bailey
Asomugha
Samuel

This cracks me up: the follow was posted within 10 minutes!

[MichiganPackerFan]

I've been really impressed by his play and hope they lock him up long term. One of the ongoing roster concerns over the past few years has been CB depth that will ultimately replace Al & Charles, and it looks like we have an excellent successor. It is key to keep him here. Good CB's are HARD to find.

[vince]

The follow is highly debatable, albeit an exercise in futility.

Tramon is not as physical in run support as would be ideal, but he can cover with the best of 'em and is an adequate tackler. Pay the man.

[Guiness]

Williams also played well when Harris was out healing his spleen. But when Harris came back, Williams struggled. Not sure if it was the new role or reduced snaps or disappointment at not winning the job, but its good to see him reclaim that level of performance.

I just hope that stretch doesn't repeat itself when Harris is moved to the active roster.

This is very true, and I remember being confused at what seemed to be a drop-off in play when Harris came back.

When he was filling in, he was looking very good - maybe not as good as he does now, but certainly starting caliber. Then things seemed to take a turn for the worse, then he wanted multiple years instead of signing the RFA tender.

I guess we can chalk it up to some kind of a sophmore slump, or maybe teams around the league had film on him, and he needed to adjust.

[pbmax]

The follow is highly debatable, albeit an exercise in futility.

Tramon is not as physical in run support as would be ideal, but he can cover with the best of 'em and is an adequate tackler. Pay the man.
Shirley.

[TheCheese]

Man, I really hope Williams isn't a punk about this and gets a fair contract without it becoming an issue.

He's our future (and present) in the secondary but if he's going after Top 5 position money we might have a problem.

He deserves top 5 money though. Name 5 cornerbacks in the NFL playing better than him.


Revis
Cromartie
Bailey
Asomugha
Samuel

This cracks me up: the follow was posted within 10 minutes!

Yeah, as was stated, there is not 5 cornerbacks playing better than Tramon in the NFL right now. There's one for sure playing better and that's Asomugha.

[mraynrand]

The follow is highly debatable, albeit an exercise in futility.

Tramon is not as physical in run support as would be ideal, but he can cover with the best of 'em and is an adequate tackler. Pay the man.

http://nativenotes.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/deion_sanders-xtra_feature-39108.jpg

Shirley.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1151/541933193_82242b872b.jpg