James Jones is pissing me off...

[packers11]

Not only does he drop easy passes and fumble games away (both bears games that we should have won in prime time)...

He starts to bitch about getting the ball...

www.rotoworld.com


Packers WR James Jones is begging for more consistent opportunities in the Packers' passing game going forward.

Even better, he went third person on us. "James Jones could play better, yes," Jones said. "But James Jones believes to be up, you need opportunities. I can't throw the ball to myself. I can't do that." If James Jones would stop dropping easy passes, Aaron Rodgers would target him more consistently. With Donald Driver (quad) out this week, he should get his wish.

[red]

he was targeted 5 times in the last game and had no catches

i'm pissed that rodgers keeps throwing to him so much after all the drops he has

[3irty1]

The guys is due for one of those "wow" plays that makes me remember why he's good.

[Tony Oday]

Cut ANY player that speaks in the third person...I used to like him but really?! Third Person...ugh

[Joemailman]

Joemailman thinks Jamers Jones will come through big time Sunday night!!! :clap: :pack: :glug:

[superfan]

There should be a law - no third person references without at least 3 Pro Bowls on the resume, and even then it's frowned upon.

Also not happy about him calling out Rodgers. He's fortunate he's had as many opportunities as he has, he should be grateful.

[denverYooper]

:lol:

Looks like Jordy's targets just went up.

I kid, I kid.

[Tony Oday]

:lol:

Looks like Jordy's targets just went up.

I kid, I kid.

I hope they cut Jones...

[gbgary]

don't understand the hate here. he's been ok...and he's right that more playing time/reps will make him better. he's just got two better players ahead of him. he does need to take the bull by the horns and prove his worth though. what's more disturbing is why greg jennings isn't getting the ball more. that's on mm!

[Tony Oday]

don't understand the hate here. he's been ok...and he's right that more playing time/reps will make him better. he's just got two better players ahead of him. he does need to take the bull by the horns and prove his worth though. what's more disturbing is why greg jennings isn't getting the ball more. that's on mm!

HE drops balls, talks in the third person...well for me thats enough to throw hate...I think Hawk and CMIII should take him out back and knock the shit out of him.

[gbgary]

don't understand the hate here. he's been ok...and he's right that more playing time/reps will make him better. he's just got two better players ahead of him. he does need to take the bull by the horns and prove his worth though. what's more disturbing is why greg jennings isn't getting the ball more. that's on mm!

HE drops balls...

everyone drops balls. i'm not saying he can't be better.

[Tony Oday]

don't understand the hate here. he's been ok...and he's right that more playing time/reps will make him better. he's just got two better players ahead of him. he does need to take the bull by the horns and prove his worth though. what's more disturbing is why greg jennings isn't getting the ball more. that's on mm!

HE drops balls...

everyone drops balls. i'm not saying he can't be better.

You call out an all pro QB then you better have a resume to do it!!!

[Joemailman]

Hopefully he'll respond to getting more opportunities as well as Desmond Bishop and Charlie Peprah have.

[mission]

:lol:

Looks like Jordy's targets just went up.

I kid, I kid.

I hope they cut Jones...

Ok Childress.. :lol:

Don't let living in Minneapolis cloud your judgement, Tony.

[Tony Oday]

:lol:

Looks like Jordy's targets just went up.

I kid, I kid.

I hope they cut Jones...

Ok Childress.. :lol:

Don't let living in Minneapolis cloud your judgement, Tony.

I wasnt being THAT serious about cutting him ;) I think he should shut up, play the game, CATCH THE BALL and turn into a stud player that we know he can be!

[mission]

:lol:

Looks like Jordy's targets just went up.

I kid, I kid.

I hope they cut Jones...

Ok Childress.. :lol:

Don't let living in Minneapolis cloud your judgement, Tony.

I wasnt being THAT serious about cutting him ;) I think he should shut up, play the game, CATCH THE BALL and turn into a stud player that we know he can be!

I'm with ya on all that. The third person shit gotstogo especially.. until his attitude is right I don't think we'll see all the other stuff all the way. I'm still expecting a big game from him this Sunday!

[superfan]

:lol:

Looks like Jordy's targets just went up.

I kid, I kid.

I hope they cut Jones...

Ok Childress.. :lol:

Don't let living in Minneapolis cloud your judgement, Tony.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[SkinBasket]

James Jones is a fucking retard. The guy's had perhaps more opportunity than any other guy who's had footballs thrown at him on this team and he's been a consistent disappointment. Drops, misreads, and assfuckery have defined his season in a tapestry of maligned prose punctuated occasionally and in all the wrong places by an exceptional play that still makes the fanboys erect and babble on about his awesome body. Whenever we need a simple comma clause, we get some idiotic semicolon split sentence that doesn't even make sense. James Jones can go fuck himself and die.

[channtheman]

James Jones is a fucking retard. The guy's had perhaps more opportunity than any other guy who's had footballs thrown at him on this team and he's been a consistent disappointment. Drops, misreads, and assfuckery have defined his season in a tapestry of maligned prose punctuated occasionally and in all the wrong places by an exceptional play that still makes the fanboys erect and babble on about his awesome body. Whenever we need a simple comma clause, we get some idiotic semicolon split sentence that doesn't even make sense. James Jones can go fuck himself and die.

+1. This shithead reminds me more and more of Robert Ferguson every time I see him. Bad shit happens when the ball is around him.

[ThunderDan]

Hmmm... Do more with the opportunities you are getting and you will get more opportunities. Don't drop passes and stop fumbling the ball after you catch it.

You have caught 19 balls this year and funbled it twice. That's over 10% of the time you catch a ball that you fumble.

For your career you have 118 catches and 5 fumbles. That's over 4%.

To compare, DD has caught 675 passes and fumbled 7 times. That's 557 receiptions and 2 more fumbles.

Hold on to the ball fucktard and shut up until you prove your worth on the field! I am sick of the 1 great play every 4 to 5 games!

[Brandon494]

Nelson might not be talking in third person but he's not doing any better.

[packerbacker1234]

Note to James Jones:

I see AR staring your way plenty. I see you getting targetted, at times, with more balls than Jennings.


You know what I also see? Fumbles and drops. You may WoW me once every 20 catches. You need to prove your are consistent enough to warrant that attention - ala Donald Driver. Driver has earned every ball that is thrown his way, and yes, it is clear with him hurt it effects the passing game greatly becuase he has a proven track record, even this year, of being reliable when the ball is around him. On the other hand, you have not proven crap.

You have the tools, now put your head on straight, stfu, and show up.

That is how you get to 6+ years of 1000 yards and 70+ catches. STFU, do your job, and EARN IT.

[Noodle]

Whenever we need a simple comma clause, we get some idiotic semicolon split sentence that doesn't even make sense. James Jones can go fuck himself and die.

Strunk & White never said it better than this.

And if you don't know Strunk & White, check it: http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-4th-William-Strunk/dp/0205313426/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288932937&sr=1-1

[SkinBasket]

Nelson might not be talking in third person but he's not doing any better.

What the fuck does Nelson have to do with this? Even if he had something to do with Jones sucking massive radioactive cock, he's had nowhere near the number of opportunities, and from what I remember, Nelson hasn't had a problem dropping the ball or fumbling it after he catches it.

Of course, his body isn't a study in chocolate Adonis, so I know he doesn't flip your switch.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Nelson might not be talking in third person but he's not doing any better.

Nelson's playing better. The theory that Jones is a better WR isn't working out so well this season. Proof is on the field.

[mraynrand]

If Mraynrand were the QB, Mraynrand wouldn't throw more to Jones unless Mraynrand had some proof that Jones would catch and hang on to the damn ball.

Plus, it might help if he got open from time to time.

[Patler]

Nelson might not be talking in third person but he's not doing any better.

What the fuck does Nelson have to do with this? Even if he had something to do with Jones sucking massive radioactive cock, he's had nowhere near the number of opportunities, and from what I remember, Nelson hasn't had a problem dropping the ball or fumbling it after he catches it.

Of course, his body isn't a study in chocolate Adonis, so I know he doesn't flip your switch.

Nelson has had some big drops this year too. I don't know why everyone forgets his, but remembers Jones' drops.


Nelson, also a big target at 6-3, 217, has caught 16 passes for 186 yards in the last four games after catching 6 for 53 in the first four. Twelve of his 22 receptions have resulted in first downs, but he also has four drops.

Nelson = Jones; Jones = Nelson.
Nelson + Jones = nothing special this year. Decent, but not special. Both need to step up their games.

Both Nelson & Jones looked better as rookies than they have since. Both were reputed to have good hands as rookies, but both have had problems with drops at times since their rookie years. Maybe backup roles don't suit them. Maybe they need more consistent opportunities to play well. Jones played well when starting as a rookie due to Jennings injury. Nelson has looked best when Jones has been hurt. Neither has looked particularly good consistently when both were healthy and splitting the #3/#4 receiver position.

Both have been disappointing at some critical times this year.

[Fritz]

I love this site because you can have sheer genius like this from Mr. Skinbasket: "Drops, misreads, and assfuckery have defined his season in a tapestry of maligned prose punctuated occasionally and in all the wrong places by an exceptional play that still makes the fanboys erect and babble on about his awesome body."

AND rational, numbers-based logic from Patler.

It's the best of both worlds.

"Assfuckery" - my new favorite word.

[Tony Oday]

"Assfuckery" - my new favorite word.


Thats what she said?

[denverYooper]

Nelson might not be talking in third person but he's not doing any better.

What the fuck does Nelson have to do with this? Even if he had something to do with Jones sucking massive radioactive cock, he's had nowhere near the number of opportunities, and from what I remember, Nelson hasn't had a problem dropping the ball or fumbling it after he catches it.

Of course, his body isn't a study in chocolate Adonis, so I know he doesn't flip your switch.

Nelson has had some big drops this year too. I don't know why everyone forgets his, but remembers Jones' drops.


Nelson, also a big target at 6-3, 217, has caught 16 passes for 186 yards in the last four games after catching 6 for 53 in the first four. Twelve of his 22 receptions have resulted in first downs, but he also has four drops.

Nelson = Jones; Jones = Nelson.
Nelson + Jones = nothing special this year. Decent, but not special. Both need to step up their games.

Both Nelson & Jones looked better as rookies than they have since. Both were reputed to have good hands as rookies, but both have had problems with drops at times since their rookie years. Maybe backup roles don't suit them. Maybe they need more consistent opportunities to play well. Jones played well when starting as a rookie due to Jennings injury. Nelson has looked best when Jones has been hurt. Neither has looked particularly good consistently when both were healthy and splitting the #3/#4 receiver position.

Both have been disappointing at some critical times this year.

Nelson has been targeted 35 times, for a catch rate of 63% and has 0 fumbles as a receiver. He had some drops earlier this year but IMO he's gotten more consistent from the Miami game onward.

Jones has been targeted 40 times and has caught 19, for a catch rate of 48% and he has 2 fumbles. 15% is quite a difference in catch rate. Enough of a difference for me to say that he is not as reliable as Nelson at this point.

Football Outsiders also has Nelson listed 59th in receiver efficiency (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr), performing slightly above the level of a Defense-adjusted average replacement receiver with 15 DYAR and Jones listed 78th, performing fairly well below at -39 DYAR. So the story that is supported by their numbers is that through 8 games Jordy has performed slightly better than an "average receiver" in the same given situations while Jones has performed quite a bit worse than that "average receiver" given the same opportunities.

I'm trying to track down the game splits that show #targets in each game because I suspect that Nelson has gone from as bad as Jones to above average through the year and Jones has shown more game-to-game fluctuation in performance that has kept him in that below average performance range.

[denverYooper]

Interestingly, both Nelson and Jones are credited with 2 drops apiece by STATS LLC (via SI):

Nelson: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/8813/receiving_splits.html

Jones: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/8332/receiving_splits.html

[denverYooper]

Those SI pages had the game splits, too, which I was originally looking for above:



I'm trying to track down the game splits that show #targets in each game because I suspect that Nelson has gone from as bad as Jones to above average through the year and Jones has shown more game-to-game fluctuation in performance that has kept him in that below average performance range.




J = Jones, N=Nelson

Opp J Target J Catch J Rate N Target N Catch N Rate
PHI 3 2 67 2 1 50
BUF 7 3 43 2 2 100
CHI 5 5 100 4 3 75
DET 1 1 100 1 0 0
WAS 8 4 50 5 3 60
MIA 3 0 0 7 4 57
MIN 8 4 50 7 4 57
NYJ 5 0 0 7 5 71


So my suspicion above is partly supported. Nelson, while he has had some bad plays, has not had any terrible games. He's not had any great games either. Jones has probably had one great game (would have been 2 if not for the fumble in CHI) but has been a lot less consistent game-to-game.

[RashanGary]

What the fuck is ass-fuckery?

[Patler]

"Targeted passes" is a misleading stat, and leads to very erroneous conclusions, especially when comparing two receivers with relatively few opportunities.

Every incomplete pass has to have a "targeted receiver", even if the pass is intentionally thrown 40 rows into the stands. Every time the QB escapes the pocket and tosses a "throw away" to the sidelines, one of the outside receivers will be designated as "targeted". Intentional throws 20 feet over a double-covered receiver are "targeted" to the receiver.

Driver, who does most of his work in the middle of the field, will be the targeted receiver on a throw away much less often than a receiver who works the sidelines, or than Jennings who is often "targeted" on deep ball throw aways.

"Targeted passes" is a stat category I virtually ignore.

Now if someone wants to analyze deeper, and ascertain catchable targeted passes, that would be a different thing.

[Patler]

My general feeling is that Jones and Nelson both are a bit disappointing. Each is capable, each has flaws. Both are better than many of the 3rd and 4th receivers of years past, but neither one will push Driver into retirement or justify letting Jennings go in free agency. I would be happy to see either or both stick around for depth, but we still need to find Driver's eventual replacement, because neither Jones nor Nelson has shown enough to fill his shoes.

[denverYooper]

"Targeted passes" is a misleading stat, and leads to very erroneous conclusions, especially when comparing two receivers with relatively few opportunities.

Every incomplete pass has to have a "targeted receiver", even if the pass is intentionally thrown 40 rows into the stands. Every time the QB escapes the pocket and tosses a "throw away" to the sidelines, one of the outside receivers will be designated as "targeted". Intentional throws 20 feet over a double-covered receiver are "targeted" to the receiver.

Driver, who does most of his work in the middle of the field, will be the targeted receiver on a throw away much less often than a receiver who works the sidelines, or than Jennings who is often "targeted" on deep ball throw aways.

"Targeted passes" is a stat category I virtually ignore.

Now if someone wants to analyze deeper, and ascertain catchable targeted passes, that would be a different thing.

I only used targeted passes as part of the story. And without paying to get NFL rewind to go and score which passes were catchable, it serves as at least a rough approximation for what kind of opportunity they're given and what they're doing with that opportunity. I grant that Jones usually works the sideline more often than Nelson and does see more OOB throws. BUT, that was not the only piece of evidence to support my story. The other part was FO's wr efficiency rating, which does attempt to correct for such things as you mention. It indicates that Nelson to the halfway point has performed slightly above average given his opportunities and that Jones has performed below average and lends another support for the idea that Nelson is generally the more reliable, if less exciting, performance.

I do agree with you that neither has set the world on fire but don't agree that they've shown equal performance. I feel that Nelson has been more reliable, if less exciting.

[Lurker64]

"Targeted passes" is a misleading stat, and leads to very erroneous conclusions, especially when comparing two receivers with relatively few opportunities.

Every incomplete pass has to have a "targeted receiver", even if the pass is intentionally thrown 40 rows into the stands. Every time the QB escapes the pocket and tosses a "throw away" to the sidelines, one of the outside receivers will be designated as "targeted". Intentional throws 20 feet over a double-covered receiver are "targeted" to the receiver.

Driver, who does most of his work in the middle of the field, will be the targeted receiver on a throw away much less often than a receiver who works the sidelines, or than Jennings who is often "targeted" on deep ball throw aways.

"Targeted passes" is a stat category I virtually ignore.

Now if someone wants to analyze deeper, and ascertain catchable targeted passes, that would be a different thing.

I think targeted passes exists as a statistic only because the sports world seems to be obsessed with fantasy football.

[Fritz]

What the fuck is ass-fuckery?

While Patler and Lurker and Denver Yooper screw around with meaningless numbers, you and I delve into the truly "deep" issues.

"Assfuckery" is essentially "buttfuckery."

I believe it's a noun, JH.

[Tarlam!]

What the fuck is ass-fuckery?

I believe it's a noun, JH.

Ya, but it could also be a verb, right? Na, you're right, it's a noun.

[Bretsky]

These guys are what they are; backup WR's. #3 and #4 WR's. Guys that show flashes but up to this point nothing special. Removing the homer glasses, without Jermichael Finley we have a decent set of receiving options and we stop talking about how our top 4 WR group is elite.

[Patler]

These guys are what they are; backup WR's. #3 and #4 WR's. Guys that show flashes but up to this point nothing special. Removing the homer glasses, without Jermichael Finley we have a decent set of receiving options and we stop talking about how our top 4 WR group is elite.

I agree, sort of. Jones and Nelson are nothing more than good #3 and #4 receivers, I agree. As I said, neither will push Driver into retirement. But, to have two of them on the team when other teams struggle to find a single quality backup, does put the Packers in a somewhat elite group as far as depth at the WR position. That doesn't mean that all of the receivers individually are elite, but the group does have uncommon depth and versatility.

The Packers do not have a single truly elite receiver. But the overall depth and quality at WR gives them options and versatility, not to mention the ability to handle injuries, that are better than most teams. The way this season is going for the Packers, that depth may be the most important attribute of the group.

[Bretsky]

These guys are what they are; backup WR's. #3 and #4 WR's. Guys that show flashes but up to this point nothing special. Removing the homer glasses, without Jermichael Finley we have a decent set of receiving options and we stop talking about how our top 4 WR group is elite.

I agree, sort of. Jones and Nelson are nothing more than good #3 and #4 receivers, I agree. As I said, neither will push Driver into retirement. But, to have two of them on the team when other teams struggle to find a single quality backup, does put the Packers in a somewhat elite group as far as depth at the WR position. That doesn't mean that all of the receivers individually are elite, but the group does have uncommon depth and versatility.

The Packers do not have a single truly elite receiver. But the overall depth and quality at WR gives them options and versatility, not to mention the ability to handle injuries, that are better than most teams. The way this season is going for the Packers, that depth may be the most important attribute of the group.


Actually I think we underestimate the depth several teams have at WR.

Look at San Diego.

Their Greg Jennings missed the first ten games and their offense hardly misses a beat. Malcolm Floyd steps up. Floyd gets hurt and then we got guys like Buster Davis and Legendu Nanae sp? filling the voids.

I think a lot of teams are four deep at WR and their local forums probably think they have an elite 1-4 as well.

[Patler]

Actually I think we underestimate the depth several teams have at WR.

Look at San Diego.

Their Greg Jennings missed the first ten games and their offense hardly misses a beat. Malcolm Floyd steps up. Floyd gets hurt and then we got guys like Buster Davis and Legendu Nanae sp? filling the voids.

I think a lot of teams are four deep at WR and their local forums probably think they have an elite 1-4 as well.

I agree some have good depth, but I don't know that I would say "a lot" of teams do.

Some teams are fortunate enough to have a real stud and reasonable depth. Other teams have no stud and no depth. The Packers are somewhere in the high middle between that. I think there are teams out there who would trade 4 for 4 with the Packers.

[Brandon494]

Nelson might not be talking in third person but he's not doing any better.

What the fuck does Nelson have to do with this? Even if he had something to do with Jones sucking massive radioactive cock, he's had nowhere near the number of opportunities, and from what I remember, Nelson hasn't had a problem dropping the ball or fumbling it after he catches it.

Of course, his body isn't a study in chocolate Adonis, so I know he doesn't flip your switch.

:roll:

Maybe because both have failed to each expectations this season after getting raves in training camp, or maybe because they both play the same position, or maybe because they have both been fighting for the #3 WR job for a few years now, or maybe because both players have had trouble hanging onto the ball but I mean you can bring up race again. :?:

BTW hows your boy Kuhn doing? :lol:

[pbmax]

"Targeted passes" is a misleading stat, and leads to very erroneous conclusions, especially when comparing two receivers with relatively few opportunities.

Every incomplete pass has to have a "targeted receiver", even if the pass is intentionally thrown 40 rows into the stands. Every time the QB escapes the pocket and tosses a "throw away" to the sidelines, one of the outside receivers will be designated as "targeted". Intentional throws 20 feet over a double-covered receiver are "targeted" to the receiver.

Driver, who does most of his work in the middle of the field, will be the targeted receiver on a throw away much less often than a receiver who works the sidelines, or than Jennings who is often "targeted" on deep ball throw aways.

"Targeted passes" is a stat category I virtually ignore.

Now if someone wants to analyze deeper, and ascertain catchable targeted passes, that would be a different thing.
Patler, if you have something on this, I would love to see it.

Football Outsiders uses the more generally available public information directly from the NFL Game Books. For instance, the Game Book does not list drops only incompletions. They occasionally list a throw as not targeted, spiked or thrown away, but I have no idea what the criteria are or how accurate.

STATs Inc., however, reviews game footage and counts WR drops and may very well be counting true targets/catchables. I have never seen an explanation for how they determine targeted passes. And this is not an exact science, as McGinn and STATs aren't even in agreement about the two WRs in question.

Its one more thing that the NFL could charge me for that I would pay. Watch the game and replays from the endzone cameras and get a complete set of stats from their provider. With definitions.

[packerbacker1234]

Actually I think we underestimate the depth several teams have at WR.

Look at San Diego.

Their Greg Jennings missed the first ten games and their offense hardly misses a beat. Malcolm Floyd steps up. Floyd gets hurt and then we got guys like Buster Davis and Legendu Nanae sp? filling the voids.

I think a lot of teams are four deep at WR and their local forums probably think they have an elite 1-4 as well.

I agree some have good depth, but I don't know that I would say "a lot" of teams do.

Some teams are fortunate enough to have a real stud and reasonable depth. Other teams have no stud and no depth. The Packers are somewhere in the high middle between that. I think there are teams out there who would trade 4 for 4 with the Packers.

The only team I think the NFL that has a severe drop off with depth is the Vikings. After Harvin... they all suck.

But a lot of teams do go four deep. Remember were talking about the NFL. There are hundreds of WR's every year trying to make it. We got Driver and Nelson from small time programs... point is that a lot of teams have the same sort of depth we too, but not all the teams have a good enough QB for it to matter.

No, we don't have an elite WR. That is clear, and it's why guys like Driver at times appear to be "our go to elite guy" because we really don't have anyone who is better. Jennings is faster than driver, but isn't as precise of a route runner. Driver knows how to get open more and due to his athleticism he has made several highlight reel catches, but he doesn't have the burner speed to consistently make the big play.

James Jones has all the physical tools, but his head isn't on straight. He drops too much and turns the ball over too much after the catch.

Nelson is deceptively quick and decently sure handed, but he runs poor routes, thus he isn't open as much as he should be. All of our WR's have "glaring" faults that keep them from elite status, and only two of them mask those faults enough to be solid starters.

Driver is a possession WR who has and CAN make big plays now and then. Jennings is a guy who uses his speed to try and get open, and thus is a great slant guy in an offense that actually runs a lot of slants. Lots of YAC.

After those two, there IS a drop off to Jones and Nelson - we've all seen it. It's not nearly as bad as it could be, but Driver and Jennings are clearly in at a completely different standard than jones and nelson will ever be at.

Driver being hurt DOES hurt our offense. Yes, Finley being gone hurts it more, but Finely and Driver were neck and neck for leadin the team in receptions, and after Finely went down, Driver really became the focal point of the offense until his quad injury. Since then, they have really been forcing it jennings, but not having nearly the same success.

This offense NEEDS Driver back, Unttil then, we have to hope Dom Caper's Defense keeps winning games for us.


And to think, there were people who wanted to get rid of Dom Capers. Guy has proven his mettle this seasons. Excellent coaching.

[pbmax]

In the immortal format of ESPN NBA draft coverage:

James Jones
Positives:
Big, pretty fast
Must work on:
Reliability, sentence construction

Jordy Nelson
Positives
Big, pretty fast
Must work on:
Reliability, kickoff returns

Frankly, I don't care if you (pl.) care that he used the third person. He seemed to being trying to deflect the criticism. Players do this all the time and the good ones know when they were actually at fault. The fact that he returned to first person to answer the rest of the question just demonstrates the frustration.

I do think a player with a case of the drops would be better served by being targeted more, but there are problems with doing this in a game. Jones had an o-fer and more throws to him might have cost the game. He needs to get the extra work outside of the game and then deliver in-game. Clearly Rodgers likes to find him with Finley out.

I would hope both Jones and his coach know how this has to happen and what an opportunity it is. If he can't deliver, then he is ripe for being replaced. Same goes for Nelson. My suspicion is that Jones has gone as far as he will, at least under present circumstances.

[pbmax]

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/paisans_2006/NflWrDepthSmaller.png

[pbmax]

p1234, I submit to you the lineups of the Bills, Panthers, Browns, Bears, Jaguars, Chiefs, Dolphins, Raiders, 49ers, Seahawks and Redskins.

[packerbacker1234]

p1234, I submit to you the lineups of the Bills, Panthers, Browns, Bears, Jaguars, Chiefs, Dolphins, Raiders, 49ers, Seahawks and Redskins.

Name me one great QB on any of those teams. McNabb is not what he once was.

Common demoniter of all those teams is they don't have someone capable of throwing the football right now. So how do we really know how good that depth is?

[pbmax]

p1234, I submit to you the lineups of the Bills, Panthers, Browns, Bears, Jaguars, Chiefs, Dolphins, Raiders, 49ers, Seahawks and Redskins.

Name me one great QB on any of those teams. McNabb is not what he once was.

Common demoniter of all those teams is they don't have someone capable of throwing the football right now. So how do we really know how good that depth is?
Because many of the terrible players have demonstrated their terribleness on other teams and with other QBs.

But more to the current point, we are not factoring in Rodger poor play of late when discussing Jones and Nelson's poor play. So the QB, for the sake of this depth discussion, has been ignored. For instance, we have not dissected Favre's physical limitations when discussing the Viking WR depth beyond Harvin.

I agree with the overall point that to determine a WRs true value you need to account for the differences in QB play, but that is easier to understand than to quantify.

[Brando19]

Nelson might not be talking in third person but he's not doing any better.

What the fuck does Nelson have to do with this? Even if he had something to do with Jones sucking massive radioactive cock, he's had nowhere near the number of opportunities, and from what I remember, Nelson hasn't had a problem dropping the ball or fumbling it after he catches it.

Of course, his body isn't a study in chocolate Adonis, so I know he doesn't flip your switch.

:roll:

Maybe because both have failed to each expectations this season after getting raves in training camp, or maybe because they both play the same position, or maybe because they have both been fighting for the #3 WR job for a few years now, or maybe because both players have had trouble hanging onto the ball but I mean you can bring up race again. :?:

BTW hows your boy Kuhn doing? :lol:

In the "thoughts" of Rush Limbaugh..."How's your boys McNabb and Campbell doing?"

[red]

one catch one fumble so far tonight

yup he's awesome

[Joemailman]

5 catches and a fumble...we're getting the whole repertoire.

[The Leaper]

I think Jones has the physical talent to be a #2 WR in the league...he just doesn't have enough gray matter between his ears and has trouble holding onto a football. As such, he'll always be a tease.

Nelson is what he is...a #3 WR. He has dependable hands and doesn't make a lot of dumb mistakes. However, I don't see him "breaking out" and becoming a significantly better player than he is now at any point.

[SkinBasket]

Nelson might not be talking in third person but he's not doing any better.

What the fuck does Nelson have to do with this? Even if he had something to do with Jones sucking massive radioactive cock, he's had nowhere near the number of opportunities, and from what I remember, Nelson hasn't had a problem dropping the ball or fumbling it after he catches it.

Of course, his body isn't a study in chocolate Adonis, so I know he doesn't flip your switch.

:roll:

Maybe because both have failed to each expectations this season after getting raves in training camp, or maybe because they both play the same position, or maybe because they have both been fighting for the #3 WR job for a few years now, or maybe because both players have had trouble hanging onto the ball but I mean you can bring up race again. :?:

BTW hows your boy Kuhn doing? :lol:

I'm a little confused as to where you believe your cleverness is taking us.

Good thing Nelson was there to collect another Jones' fuck up early tonight...

[SkinBasket]

This game sums up Jones' year.

He has his biggest moments when they count the least. Without the dropped TD and the fumble, this would have been a nice game for him. Too bad it came against one of the worst defensive backfields in the league in a game that quickly became a blowout.

And then there's the fumble.

And the dropped TD.

The kind of plays that cost us the CHI game and could change other, much closer games for the worse in the future.

[hoosier]

This game sums up Jones' year.

He has his biggest moments when they count the least. Without the dropped TD and the fumble, this would have been a nice game for him. Too bad it came against one of the worst defensive backfields in the league in a game that quickly became a blowout.

And then there's the fumble.

And the dropped TD.

The kind of plays that cost us the CHI game and could change other, much closer games for the worse in the future.

His drop also came after the game had been decided, and he did have a few big catches in the first half when the outcome was still in doubt. So you can't say he did nothing in close game situations, and he also showed that he is capable of screwing up when the game is all but over. :lol:

[Patler]

This game sums up Jones' year.

He has his biggest moments when they count the least. Without the dropped TD and the fumble, this would have been a nice game for him. Too bad it came against one of the worst defensive backfields in the league in a game that quickly became a blowout.

And then there's the fumble.

And the dropped TD.

The kind of plays that cost us the CHI game and could change other, much closer games for the worse in the future.

But you are looking at just one side of the coin. He also made some nice plays, particularly the leaping catch and the deep throw while being interfered with that can win you a close game.

He seems to be one of those players that gives you both good and bad on a regular basis. Even his TD catch and run was a nice effort on his part getting into the endzone. It becomes a balancing act with those players, evaluating if the good outweighs the bad.

Somehow, Jones looks awkward, or uncomfortable carrying the ball. With some players, you really don't notice the ball when they run, it seems natural for them to hold it. Jones looks uncomfortable with it, and the ball looks huge in his arms.

[SkinBasket]

But you are looking at just one side of the coin. He also made some nice plays, particularly the leaping catch and the deep throw while being interfered with that can win you a close game.

I'll be more willing to explore the positive side of the coin when said positive helps win a game in the same way his negative side ended our chance to win the CHI game.

I understand he has positives. He just happens to showcases them at the most unimpressive moments, while also continuing to display a continued inability to improve his hands.

[3irty1]

Greg Jennings is still a stud out there. He's not the big target who will catch 80+ balls a year but he is an elite route runner, elite with the ball in his hands, and has great speed. Try to think of someone who matches his skill set in terms of being able to make things happen underneath, ability to go up and play the ball, and work as a deep threat. I don't know what constitutes "an elite WR" but IMO few teams have a weapon of Greg's caliber.

Donald Driver as we all know is impossible not to love. Has left zero yards on the field over the course of his career. Elite concentration. Explodes out of his cuts. Donald Driver isn't thought of as a slot receiver but that's who he has become and in that role he has proven to be among the best, and is using it contribute at a high level even into his mid 30's. The slot is to Driver as the splitter was to Rodger Clemens--a fountain of youth. This role doesn't stop Driver from shifting outside in 2 WR sets where he still has a knack for getting open quickly, has great leaping ability, and the ability to make the occasional circus catch.

James Jones has been criminally underrated by most fans IMO. If Anquan Boldin made 1 good play for every bad play instead of 3 good plays for every bad one, he would be James Jones. James Jones is a few mental errors away from filling the Packers roll of big possession receiver who thrives amongst other weapons.

Nelson has talent but is struggling to find a role. He has speed but isn't a great deep threat. He's tall but hasn't shown the ablity to go up and fight for the ball. The best thing I can say about Nelson is that he's a great blocker. He has a knack for getting separation in the QB friendly parts of the field but I see him as a faster Ruvell Martin--which is a compliment I think.

[denverYooper]

James Jones has been criminally underrated by most fans IMO. If Anquan Boldin made 1 good play for every bad play instead of 3 good plays for every bad one, he would be James Jones. James Jones is a few mental errors away from filling the Packers roll of big possession receiver who thrives amongst other weapons.

If Boldin only had a 1:1 good to bad play ratio, I don't think people would think he was very good. Especially when the bad plays involve giving the ball up.

I agree with you that Jones is a few errors away from thriving but to this point he has usually been good for a few a game and seems to disappear every other game. I personally like the guy because he's shown some great physicality after the catch and I want to see him get over those errors but it's maddening that he can be so inconsistent.