You've gotta appreciate Chris Havel.

[RashanGary]

LINK (http://www.packersnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060807/PKR07/608070420/1989)

You've gotta appreciate Havel. He is an obvious pro-Favre conspirator and friend of the family. He gets ripped daily for being Favres little media sidekick and rightfully so. He still stays true to his roots and writes this. That was a rediculous artical. I'm a Packer fan. Hell I'm a Favre fan. I'm realistic, Favre lost something but when you're including record breaking RB's and great CB's how do you not include the QB who might end up with more victories than any other QB in the history of the NFL. How do you not include the guy who will probably lead in half of the all time statistical categories but have done it in less years and also have a ring in comparison to the guy who holds the other half.

It could be argued that Favre is the greatest QB to ever play the game yet one bad season makes him something other than a shoo in to the profootball HOF. Nice to see Havel say what most of us thought when we read that poop piece.

[b bulldog]

Best of alltime is a bit much but he is definitely top 10.

[RashanGary]

I said could be argued bulldog. Many like Bradshaw, Salisbury, Madden ect recognize Favre's greatness. Favre had a rough year, but he's still gonna be the all time record holder in multiple passing categories and the all time wins leader in less years than Elway and Marino. Also he has a ring, a bunch of playoff births and another superbowl visit.

Where ever you put Marino, I think you put Favre a notch up with the ring.

[Joemailman]

Zimmerman should look at what John Unitas was at the end of his career if he thinks last years struggles will affect Favre's legacy. Favre had 3 straight MVP's. End of story.

[Scott Campbell]

I think Havel just partially plagiarized my thread.

[red]

I think Havel just partially plagiarized my thread.

i thought the same thing while reading his article

[RIPackerFan]

Since I am in Patriots country - I have a bunch of discussions with Brady fans concerning who is the better quarterback.

The way I look at it - you are considered one of the greatest if you have superior numbers in one of the following: Stats or Wins. If you have both, you are considered one of the all-time greats.

Brady has wins - the Superbowl wins by themselves will ensure him to the HOF. However, if he were to get injured tomorrow (and were unable to play ever again) would he be considered 10 yrs from now, one of the greats....probably not. He would be considered a good quarterback, but the "team" and coach would probably be thought of contributing to the wins as much as the QB.

Favre has wins and some stats. Because he has both, my belief is that he is considered one of the greats, however not the best yet. I do believe that if he was able to pull off either another league MVP OR a Superbowl appearance, along with beating a few of Marinos records, I doubt if the majority would not consider him the best of all-time.

The reason for the current doubters is that analysts are "what have you done for me lately". Favre had a bad season last year, thus they are down on him. This is the reason why Brady and the Patriots are still considered one of the favorites to win the SB.

I do believe he could have another 29 int season, and still get in first ballot. However, it would certainly "taint" his standing in the best of all time.

That's why I am hoping and planning on a big season from him. It would be a great way to shut up the Pats fans here.

[red]

Since I am in Patriots country - I have a bunch of discussions with Brady fans concerning who is the better quarterback.

The way I look at it - you are considered one of the greatest if you have superior numbers in one of the following: Stats or Wins. If you have both, you are considered one of the all-time greats.

Brady has wins - the Superbowl wins by themselves will ensure him to the HOF. However, if he were to get injured tomorrow (and were unable to play ever again) would he be considered 10 yrs from now, one of the greats....probably not. He would be considered a good quarterback, but the "team" and coach would probably be thought of contributing to the wins as much as the QB.

Favre has wins and some stats. Because he has both, my belief is that he is considered one of the greats, however not the best yet. I do believe that if he was able to pull off either another league MVP OR a Superbowl appearance, along with beating a few of Marinos records, I doubt if the majority would not consider him the best of all-time.

The reason for the current doubters is that analysts are "what have you done for me lately". Favre had a bad season last year, thus they are down on him. This is the reason why Brady and the Patriots are still considered one of the favorites to win the SB.

I do believe he could have another 29 int season, and still get in first ballot. However, it would certainly "taint" his standing in the best of all time.

That's why I am hoping and planning on a big season from him. It would be a great way to shut up the Pats fans here.

remember though, lets put this into pure packer terms that everyone can understand. because we all know other teams and their players don't matter

Star has very unimpressive career stats. and they look real bad when you put them next to Favres. but many packer fans still consider Bart to be the better QB. mostly IMO because he was the QB of a team that one a lot of championships

it seems to me that a lot of people think that games won, no matter if its because of the Qb or not, is a more important number then TD's or yards

look at terry bradshaw, how many times have we heard what a great qb he was. he threw just as many ints as he did TD's over his career (212 td's- 210ints). but his team won a lot of big games

[RashanGary]

Wins are important. The QB is not in a vacuum. Brady looked bad when he had pressure in the playoffs. It's when your defense keeps you in the game every game for 19 strait that you start to look invinsable.

Favre was the same way in 96-97. It's just the way team sports work. Just like in basketball. Brand was never considered a great PF untill he started winning. The reality is he was on a bad team for most of his career but has always been one of the NBA's most complete players.

Brady is good. Favre is better. That is my two cents.

[CaliforniaCheez]

Had Favre been injured and not played last year the "experts" would have said that Favre was the reason for the Packers success and that they would bounce back this year with him back at the helm.

Media spin is media spin.

Don't worry, over time greatness will be recognized. Havel will be vindicated.

[RIPackerFan]

I don't disagree that wins are the more important of the two. They are also the most prevalent (how many important QB records can be broken?)

However, I don't think that Bradshaw would be considered one of the greats (in my mind - top five). Probably in the top 15 - maybe top 10 (but at the end - 9 maybe 10). Why, most people realize he was on a great team, this does not belittle his accomplishments, just tempers them.

The same applies the other way. Marino has most of the QB records, but probably not considered one of the top 5 (top 10 yes). Why - he never won the big one.

I would say if Brady never goes to another Superbowl and doesn't do a lot statistically, I would be hard-pressed to give him a top 10 ranking (he would be a lot like Bradshaw).

Also, unless Manning wins it all, I don't see him breaking the top 10, even if breaks a bunch of records.

As far as your Star comment, I would have to believe that the majority of Packer fans (around 75%) would think Favre is better than Star. I don't think this is a slam to Star, just an understanding with the accolades (three MVPs - etc.) and stats (most consecutive starts - TDs, etc.) that Favre is a better all around player.

[MJZiggy]

As far as your Star comment, I would have to believe that the majority of Packer fans (around 75%) would think Favre is better than Star. I don't think this is a slam to Star, just an understanding with the accolades (three MVPs - etc.) and stats (most consecutive starts - TDs, etc.) that Favre is a better all around player.

Starr thinks Favre is better than he was. He has said so in numerous interviews. Did I once read that Favre thinks Starr was better than he is or was that part just the senility kicking in again?

[Deputy Nutz]

Best of alltime is a bit much but he is definitely top 10.

My god, you almost said something favorable on Favre's behalf, let me check, you did, thanks for contributing!

[GBRulz]

Best of alltime is a bit much but he is definitely top 10.

mad, I think someone hacked into bulldog's account

[ahaha]

Havel may be a Favre homer, but he hit the nail on the head with this one. One can understand trying to play the devil's advocate, like Dr. Z, but his comments on Favre were so completely ridiculous you have to wonder how senile he's become. Brett Favre could play another three terrible seasons, and still be a first ballot HOF. Stats- he's on the verge of breaking all the major passing records! Wins - Superbowl victory, another appearence, and too many play-off appearences. And, he's only 9 regular season wins away from the all-time record held by Elway. Accolalades - THREE MVP'S, and numerous pro-bowls. And what about his toughness? He has almost DOUBLED the previous record for consecutive starts for a quarterback. Hell, if he makes it through this season, it'll be the third highest streak for any position. And most importantly, the media loves him. Of course there are always be a few people out there who love to cut down a player of Favre's stature, but make no mistake, the majority of the media loves Favre. He is the epitomy of what a football player should be.
Dr Z's only argument for the chance that Brett wouldn't make it on his first try, is that his play has deteriorated at the end of his career. WHAT?! I can't believe a guy that has covered football as long as he has could say that! How many HOF players kicked ass at the end? Jim Brown, and John Elway.....and that's about it.
And, what HOF players has Brett ever had around him? White, and possibly Butler. None on offense(maybe Sharpe if he played longer).
Yes, controversy is good for stiring conversation and thought, but Dr Z. should be embarresed for making such a ridiculous argument.

[woodbuck27]

Best of alltime is a bit much but he is definitely top 10.

Thanks b bulldog.That means alot, a moi. :mrgreen:

How many QB's have had more 3000 yard passing seasons?

Who will break Dan Marino's passing TD recors first?

Who has the best chance today to break all of Dan Marino's career pasing records?

Someone who is OURS.

GO PACKERS - as goes F-A-V-R-E !!!

Rip em Brett !!!!!!

[mngolf19]

I truly believe that you can't go by wins or stats alone. You just have to feel whether or not a QB was good or great. My opinion, from the other side, is that Favre has the attitude on the field, effort in the games, turned around a floundering franchise, and has always been an ambassador for the NFL. Wins and stats at some point cannot be ignored no matter what you may think of the QB(Bradshaw). Bradshaw was not great, above avg, but played on great teams. So he gets cred. In putting everything together, I have to give Favre top 10. Marino and Manning are exactly alike each other, and at some point if Ind keeps winning and the stats go up, Manning will be viewed like Marino and top 10 even if he never wins a SB.

[TPF]

Yeah, good stuff from Havel.

[Tony Oday]

Marino is the best QB ever sorry he is.
Top 10 all time no order:
Marino
Favre
Tarkington
Elway
Manning(he will go down as a top guy)
Bradshaw
Montana
Young
Namath
Tie between Brady and Moon

This is what I think the current ones are.

[Badgepack]

I think Johnny Unitas has to be on any top ten list.

[ahaha]

I think Johnny Unitas has to be on any top ten list.

Probably should be #1. He was the original 'Field General'.

Favre, Marino, Elway, and Montana all tied for #2.

[Lare]

With the Packers' and Favre's troubles last year it has become fashionable in the national media to kick us while we're down.

Dr. Z writes for the east coast readers and gives them what they want. Just wait and see what happens if/when the Packers & Favre have a successful season. He'll be writing articles saying "I told you so!"

[FritzDontBlitz]

Marino is the best QB ever sorry he is.
Top 10 all time no order:
Marino
Favre
Tarkington
Elway
Manning(he will go down as a top guy)
Bradshaw
Montana
Young
Namath
Tie between Brady and Moon

This is what I think the current ones are.

hmmmm.

i was gonna raise hell about your selection of fran tarkenton as a top 10 quarterback, but then i saw you were from minnesota lol

[HarveyWallbangers]

Typical Dr. Z writing. Rip Favre all you want for last year. Most of us have, but he says his game has deteriorated in the last few years. This is a dude that guided Green Bay to 14 years of non-losing seasons, 6 division titles, and 11 playoff berths (probably would have been 12--if he had started the first two games of 1992). The Packers were 10-6 in 2004 and 10-6 in 2003. His stats in those two years were:

10-6, 65.4 completion %, 3361 yards, 32 TDs, 21 interceptions, 90.4 passer rating

10-6, 64.1 completion %, 4088 yards, 30 TDs, 17 interceptions, 92.4 pass rating

Deteriorated? Hardly. Not as good as he was in the mid 90s? Absolutely, but don't most players start tailing off in their mid 30s? He's still been pretty damn good. That seems a little harsh, and just another typical backhanded dig at Favre. He could have called out the likes of Curtis Martin, Dan Marino, Bart Starr, Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton, etc. the same way for how they ended their careers--yet Dr. Z continues to single out Favre.

Blind faith
Dr. Z, SI.com

So there I was, plodding my way through the thickets and forests of the AFC East, trying to compile enough sensible information for my scouting reports for Sports Illustrated, the AFC East being the Four B's division (three Belichicks and the Bills), and a coach came over to me and said, sotto voce, "Hey, you see what they wrote about you in Green Bay?"

Now this is very big in One Voice country because since two of the teams run by former Belichick acolytes -- the Jets under Mangini, the Dolphins under Saban -- follow their ex-boss' lead and forbid you to speak to assistant coaches, I would assume the forbidding goes both ways. To have one seek me out for comment is indeed stunning, even if it happens to be someone I've known half my life.

"Ripped you a new"... uh, "Ripped you pretty severely, he did," deep throat said, and he went on to tell me about this guy who hinted very strongly at creeping senility for the Old Doc because of my comments about Brett Favre and the Hall of Fame. And naturally the ripper got it wrong, the whole thrust of what I was saying.

I wrote that I would vote for Favre when his name came up for enshrinement. I said that if he had another 29-interception season, he might run the risk of not being a first-ballot choice. I said that his game had tanked badly in the last few years.

This was interpreted to mean that I had no respect for the QB or his career. Lifetime stats were provided by this writer, including interceptions. I guess this guy was so dense that he didn't understand that the fact that Favre is only 22 picks behind George Blanda's all-time career record is a negative stat. The reason why I mention all this now is that some of my loyal e-mailers, who are certainly blessed with more IQ points than this Green Bay creep, seem to be in his corner. Oh, the shame of it!

Kenn of Madison, Wisc. (where else?) defends Favre against what he considers Steve Young's bogus championship ("the Packers didn't have to 'buy' Favre's championship by circumventing the salary cap rules like the 49ers did"). Not a bad topic, but he failed to address the point I made about the decline in his hero's game.

Cris of Toronto is a friendly chap but he feels that too much of the Packers' woes last year were laid off on the QB. Jack K. of Vernon Hills, Ill., rips me for calling Tom Brady the ultimate warrior and neglecting Favre's amazing run of consecutive games, and he's right. I should have reserved that title for Brett. Sorry. It was an oversight.

Finally Richard, a Packers fan from Huntsville, Ala., agrees with me -- surprise! "His ruptured duck pass in overtime in the infamous 4th and 23 playoff game against the Eagles cost them a Super Bowl trip, yet everyone goes, 'Well, Brett's having fun out there.'"

Andrew has selected three negative verdicts on my piece, and only one positive, which is his way of telling me that sentiment is running three-to-one against me. In other words, I am facing a Revolt of the Cheeseheads. OK Cheeseheads, before you get too revolting, let me explain to you what you fail to understand.

My son Michael was four-years old when Ohio State's legendary coach, Woody Hayes, was firmly entrenched in his nutso phase, ripping up sideline markers, etc. Everything he did, no matter how antisocial, was applauded by his blind followers. I wrote a column for the New York Post called "Woody Hayes Lives in My House," and I said his name was Michael and he was four.

In other words, he used the mechanism of a tantrum to get what he wanted, and in the finest traditions of negative reinforcement, it usually worked. The blind followers of Woody and their Buckeyes applauded his ridiculous tirades, and I wrote that they were not helping him at all. They were setting him up for the knockoff. And it came on Dec. 29, 1978, in the Gator Bowl, when Woody punched a Clemson defensive tackle, Charlie Bauman, after an interception. He was fired the next day.

Favre's techniques have been allowed to deteriorate to the point that on some of his interceptions ... well, it looked like he just didn't give a damn. It was as if no coach had the guts to criticize an idol. Or even try to correct him. What's wrong with yanking a guy after a disastrous play and sitting him down for a series or two?

"Brett told me," said one of Favre's NFL buddies last year, "that it just seemed like the team didn't know how to figure out a way to stop the losing. It took the heart out of him. He said there were times he felt like he just didn't care out there."

If I were a Packers fan, or even one of the hometown writers who likes to rip outsiders, that would worry me more than anything, not what some guy was writing a thousand miles away.

[Packnut]

I believe comparing QB's is a very gray area do to the fact that they do not play with the same talent around them. My arguement for Favre would be this:

If you go through the list of great QB's, Favre has played with less talent than many of the top ones. He has turned pedestrian WR's into stars, (Freeman for one).

Another common thread among the great QB's is having 2 solid star type WR's. How many seasons has Brett had that? If you had given Brett Duper and Clayton for most of his career, I would argue his #'s would be better than Marino's.

Another common thread with the great QB's was and is the Quality of their Coaches. Having an idiot like Sherman, robbed Favre of what should have been his best years. To say the Packer offense was un-imaginative under Sherman would be an under-statement.

I will never believe that you can say one QB is the best. I guess the criteria would have to be set first. I consider Montana one of the best, but look at the talent and coach he had.

When evaluating #4 I believe it's foolish not to admit that throughout his career, he has forced passes into tight coverage, but he also has made throws that no other QB has ever made.

[Partial]

I believe comparing QB's is a very gray area do to the fact that they do not play with the same talent around them. My arguement for Favre would be this:

If you go through the list of great QB's, Favre has played with less talent than many of the top ones. He has turned pedestrian WR's into stars, (Freeman for one).

Another common thread among the great QB's is having 2 solid star type WR's. How many seasons has Brett had that? If you had given Brett Duper and Clayton for most of his career, I would argue his #'s would be better than Marino's.

Another common thread with the great QB's was and is the Quality of their Coaches. Having an idiot like Sherman, robbed Favre of what should have been his best years. To say the Packer offense was un-imaginative under Sherman would be an under-statement.

I will never believe that you can say one QB is the best. I guess the criteria would have to be set first. I consider Montana one of the best, but look at the talent and coach he had.

When evaluating #4 I believe it's foolish not to admit that throughout his career, he has forced passes into tight coverage, but he also has made throws that no other QB has ever made.

offense was very successful, though. While his int's may have been higher, his other numbers were through the roof with Sherman.

Circumstances are never going to be exactly equal. That's why its impossible to judge. Perhaps all those other receivers only looked good because of their quarterbacks too? It's impossible to judge.

[Packnut]

offense was very successful, though. While his int's may have been higher, his other numbers were through the roof with Sherman.

Circumstances are never going to be exactly equal. That's why its impossible to judge. Perhaps all those other receivers only looked good because of their quarterbacks too? It's impossible to judge.[/quote]


Can you imagine the kind of #'s Brett would have put up with a coach like Walsh? I agree with you that Brett put up great #'s with Sherman, which is a credit to Favre, more so than Shermy. For the last few years that offense was way to predictable which has been part of the reason for Brett's play slipping.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I agree it's hard to evaluate, but it's hard to look past no losing seasons until his 14th year, 139 wins, second all-time in TDs, 11 playoff appearances in 13 full-time seasons (and possibly 12 of 14 if he plays the first 2 games in 1992), 6 division titles, 11-9 playoff record (against other playoff quality teams), 8 or 9 Pro Bowls, 3 MVPs, incredible games played streak, 2 Super Bowl berths and a Super Bowl win.

Those are numbers that get you talked about as the best of all-time. The interceptions may be up--although they aren't much higher than Elway and Marino in their careers--but the totality of the numbers shows one of the all-time greats. His teams wons every year--until last year. It didn't matter who surrounded him (good or bad receivers, good or bad running game, good or bad OL, good or bad defense). Whether it was his golden arm, clutch play, leadership, toughness, escapability, etc., he got it done.

[pbmax]

I am glad to see that Zimmerman gave Favre back the Ultimate title. Meaningless though it is, at least he admitted he blew that.

Z has been working the unadulterated adulation despite undisciplined and bad interception angle for a couple of years now, and it seems the angle got in the way of a serious comment about the man's career.

There are valid criticisms of Favre's game, especially the last few years, but his writeup was a simply a rant. Z can be funny this way, but is far more interesting when he tells us something we don't know or can't see.

Favre has been far too willing to throw the ball up for grabs since the inception of the Sherman era, and I personally blame Sherm Lewis for this. He, Rhodes (help us please McCarthy was there as well) stretched the West Coast offense to idiotic lengths in 1999.

And Favre has too often tried to be the Mad Bomber (Daryl Lamonica [tm]) at critical junctures during the games. Eagles playoff game was one example. His long bomb accuracy was never his strongest suit. He was best when he waited for plays to develop deep OR took a broken or covered play, bought himself time by moving, then threw deep on the run.

Since he was a young veteran, he was able to recognize one on one coverage, think Super Bowl vs. Patriots, and defeat it. But his ability to do so was compromised by less talent at WR and, perhaps, age.

But these have been his tendencies since he was young. What has changed is that Holmgren is not here and until Walker, he had a string of mediocre WR corps.

Neither development will impact his chances for the Hall of Fame on the first ballot, IMHO. But I am worried about the WR corp this year. We really need the TEs to be all that they can be.

[ZachMN]

Slingin' Sammy Baugh IS in the equation

and Marino is the best -

Favre right behind; a little too unpolished but close

[MJZiggy]

Welcome to the forum ZachMN. Hope you enjoy it here.

I don't think if Favre has a bad year this year it would put him in jeopardy of not being a first ballot inductee. And let's keep it in the singular here. The man had one bad year and we've beat the reasons why beyond pulp right down to juice. How many other sure-fire HOF'ers lost the first ballot nod for bad performances in their 15th and 16th years. Oh yeah, that's right. Most of them don't make it to 15 or 16 years. Dr. Z needs to lay off a little bit.

[Packnut]

Z is a freaking idiot. Not just because of the Favre issue, but because his ignorance of the NFL is mind-numbing. He NEVER adds anything new and spends most of his articles, rambling on and on about nothing.

I could care less about his wife or the fact her her is red. It has NOTHING to do with football. Like I've stated before, this guy has something on the editor which is the only way he could keep his job.

[pbmax]

Marino is the best QB ever sorry he is.
Top 10 all time no order:
Marino
Favre
Tarkington
Elway
Manning(he will go down as a top guy)
Bradshaw
Montana
Young
Namath
Tie between Brady and Moon

This is what I think the current ones are.
Montana
Unitas
Marino
Elway
Otto Graham
Sammy Baugh
Favre
Tarkenton
Joe Willie
Manning/Brady

[pbmax]

Z is a freaking idiot. Not just because of the Favre issue, but because his ignorance of the NFL is mind-numbing. He NEVER adds anything new and spends most of his articles, rambling on and on about nothing.

I could care less about his wife or the fact her her is red. It has NOTHING to do with football. Like I've stated before, this guy has something on the editor which is the only way he could keep his job.
Packnut, Z has forgotten more football than you'll ever know. But you are right, if you read him straight for NFL news every week, the pickings can be slim. Especially in the offseason.

However, besides NFL Matchup, he is the only commentator I know who watches the games closely enough to figure out who is doing what on the line of scrimmage and call it correctly. Forget the Redhead, he actually studies the games and doesn't just watch the ball. That makes him a worthy read. Better than King.

[woodbuck27]

I think Johnny Unitas has to be on any top ten list.

Your certainly correct. People just forget how great Unitas was. He is "in fact " arguably "THE GREATEST QB" of ALL TIME and a shoo-in as one of the TOP FIVE.

[wist43]

You have to consider the source... Dr. Z and SI have absolutely no credibility.

That said, it's a shame Favre didn't receive any coaching - none - after Holmgren left. His talent was completely wasted, and we as Packer fans are going to be looking back in 10, 15, 20 years and lamenting "what could have been".

The Packers should have won a minimum of 3 SB's with Favre at the controls.

Who's to blame???

Wolf - For not providing enough surrounding talent, and for hiring Rhodes and Sherman... especially for hiring Sherman.

Sherman - Just b/c he's Sherman... at least he went out and got people he thought would get them over the top, but he sucks as a talent evaluator.

[Packnut]

Z is a freaking idiot. Not just because of the Favre issue, but because his ignorance of the NFL is mind-numbing. He NEVER adds anything new and spends most of his articles, rambling on and on about nothing.

I could care less about his wife or the fact her her is red. It has NOTHING to do with football. Like I've stated before, this guy has something on the editor which is the only way he could keep his job.
Packnut, Z has forgotten more football than you'll ever know. But you are right, if you read him straight for NFL news every week, the pickings can be slim. Especially in the offseason.

However, besides NFL Matchup, he is the only commentator I know who watches the games closely enough to figure out who is doing what on the line of scrimmage and call it correctly. Forget the Redhead, he actually studies the games and doesn't just watch the ball. That makes him a worthy read. Better than King.


How the hell can you forget what you have never learned? I guess for you to say he's better than King sums it up better than I ever could. King gives info thatyou don't get anywhere else due to his contacts. When the hell did Z ever tell us something we did'nt already know?

Z's comments about Favre proves my point. He has no concept of playing QB in the NFL or the talent a QB need's to succeed.

His articles are for amusement only and never contain and real substance.

He follows what others write and has had an anti-Packer bias for quite a while.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Honestly, I don't know how Joe Namath could be in the top 10. He wasn't a top QB for long enough. He was good for a few years, and was a shell of himself at the tailend of his career. His stats are worse than Vinny Testaverde's stats. I know stats can be meaningless, but it's hard to believe somebody playing in the 60s and 70s (not the 30s and 40s) with more interceptions than TDs in his career is even a consideration.

I think rating eras is pretty silly. Plus, I didn't see a lot of the old timers, but my rankings would probably go something like this:

1 Unitas
2 Montana
3 Graham
4 Elway
5 Favre (will pass Elway if he breaks Marino's records)
6 Marino
7 Starr
8 Baugh
9 Bradshaw
10 Brady (will be in the top 5 if NE continues to win)
11 Staubach
12 Tarkenton
13 Manning (will move up if he wins a title)
14 Aikman
15 Fouts

[woodbuck27]

My Top Ten list of NFL QB's ALL Time.

1. Joe Montana – San Francisco 49ers and Kansas City Chiefs

San Francisco 49ers' 55-10 win over Denver Broncos in Super Bowl XXIV earned Montana a record third MVP award. While Montana never had Marino's rocket-launch arm or Elway's scrambling ability, he did whatever he had to in the brilliant 49ers' offense for San Francisco to win. To say Montana did the simple things well would be to understate his ability. Equally some say his offensive line and receiving corps were so good his job was made easier. Just look at the record books and you will see why Montana wears his greatness tag with ease. But make sure you have time - it's a very long section.

2. Johnny Unitas – Baltimore Colts

Johnny Unitas was named the Greatest Quarterback Of All-Time in 1969 during a celebration to mark the NFL's 50th anniversary and 34 years on many would still feel he deserves that honour. From 1959-1972 Unitas served the Baltimore Colts with distinction, often calling his own plays (unusual in those days) - "it's like being in a huddle with God," said former Colts team-mate John Mackay.

Johnny U, who died in September 2002, retired in 1974 with 22 NFL records.

3. Dan Marino – Miami Dolphins

Just for now I'll sit him here,LOL.

No Super Bowl ring, but Dan Marino has more records than Virgin Megastore - 24 NFL regular season records and 37 in the same category for Miami Dolphins.

Had Miami's running game matched Air Marino...well, we'll never know. But in his 17-year career Marino stamped his personality on the Dolphins which earned him selection to nine Pro Bowls, while away from football few players have done more for charity.

4. Brett Favre – Green Bay Packers

The man of Iron - with one of the most powerful arms in football, Brett Favre has also been one of the most effective quarterbacks in NFL history. The most durable QB ! Favre doesn't miss a game (he sits at 221 consecutive starts in the regular season- an amazing record for an NFL QB) despite the battering the Green Bay Packers' leader has had to endure.

The NFL's only three-time MVP (1995-97) Favre ranks 2nd in four major passing catagories ( passing yards - passing attempts - passing completions - TD pass's) and third behind Marino and John Elway in Career wins at 139 and only needing nine wins to tie leader John Elway. Come On Packers !! Favre owns every Packer QB passing record that matters and trails Bart Starr in Super Bowl wins 2-1. Also wasn't it prior to last season that he was 29-0 at home, when the temperature is 34 degrees or below, one of the NFL's most wonderful stats. Brett Favre is also a very charitable human being - a fine person.

5. Terry Bradshaw – Pittsburgh Steelers

Four Super Bowl rings demands Terry Bradshaw's presence in the Top 10. Alot of people will argue that he was only a small part of a GREAT Team but didn't he call his own plays? Four Super Bowl rings - an unprecedented achievement and it would be a decade before Joe Montana matched Bradshaw ring-for-ring. If Pittsburgh Steelers' triumphs were heralded for the Steel Curtain defense Bradshaw went about his business to ensure a few points were put on the scoreboard. Maybe his numbers weren't stunning compared with others but four Super Bowl rings in six years is a powerful argument for Bradshaw's presence among the all-time greats.

6. John Elway – Denver Broncos

Does being a three-times losing Super Bowl quarterback make you a less than outstanding performer? Not in my book and John Elway belatedly became officially a winning quarterback (and I also think of Bills QB Jim Kelly) when he threw for 336 yards - the third highest total in Super Bowl - when Denver beat Atlanta Falcons in Super Bowl XXXIII for his second NFL title in a row.

Winning a hat trick of AFC Championships was not enough for some to elevate Elway to the highest level. But a great ambassador for his sport eventually got his just desserts when he was named MVP as the Falcons were grounded.

Elway is up there at the top of all QB passing records and sitss impressively at the top in Career wins with 148 to Marino's 147. Noone can take a top ten ranking as a QB from John Elway. Oh did i mention his record of comeback wins as a QB? Check that out, as it's near 50. Outstanding.

I rank Favre ahead of Elway because Brett isn't finished yet. See Dan Marino. :mrgreen:

7. Fran Tarkenton - I see him as a Viking.

Francis Asbury Tarkenton. Almost instant star with four TD passes, first game, 1961. He moved to New York (1967), back to Vikings (1972) in stunning trades.

At retirement Mr. Excitement led lifetime passers in attempts (6,467), completions (3,686), yards (47,003), touchdowns (342). Fran Tarkenton was too exciting LOL , an elusive scrambler, Fran also rushed for 3,674 yards and 32 TDs. Fran Tarkenton led the Vikings to three Super Bowls. He was a Two-time All-NFL, and a Pro Bowl selection nine times. One awesome and dangerous player who went on to be pretty good as an announcer to in my view.

What a quarterback !

8. Here's one for you.

Y.A. Tittle - 1948-1950 Baltimore Colts (AAFC/NFL), 1951-1960 San Francisco 49ers, 1961-1964 New York Giants

The very first NFL GREAT QB I was aware of.

AAFC Rookie of Year, 1948. Joined 49ers in 1951 after Colts disbanded. Career record: 2,427 completions, 33,070 yards, 242 TDs, 13 games over 300 yards passing. Tittle paced 1961, 1962, 1963 Giants to division titles. He threw 33 TD passes in 1962, 36 in 1963. NFL's Most Valuable Player,
1961, 1963. All-NFL, 1957, 1961, 1962, 1963. . . Elected to seven Pro Bowls. An amazing QB that makes my list of Top ten All Time BEST.

9. Roger Staubach - Dallas Cowboys

Roger Staubach was the 1963 Heisman Trophy winner. A four-year Navy service preceded his pro play.

Staubach was noted for last-minute heroics, and he guided Dallas to four NFC titles, Super Bowl VI, XII wins. The MVP in Super Bowl VI. Roger was All-NFC five years . His career stats: 22,700 yards, 153 TDs passing; 2,264 yards, 20 TDs rushing and a 83.4 NFL passer rating, best ever at time of retirement.. Roger Staubach was a four-time NFL passing leader.

10. This is very difficult as there are so many great one's but I can't disappoint Packer fans.

Bart Starr – Green Bay Packers

Bart Starr may have been a 17th round draft pick in 1956 but he went on to become the winningest quarterback in football, leading the Green Bay Packers to victory in Super Bowl I and II when he was also named MVP. Starr - who was nicknamed Mr Quarterback - had a 82-24-4 record between 1960 and 1967 and three times led the league in passing. An early NFL "superstarr" his name will forever be etched in NFL and Packer history.

That's my TOP TEN ALL TIME NFL QB's.

[Terry]

Star has very unimpressive career stats. and they look real bad when you put them next to Favres. but many packer fans still consider Bart to be the better QB. mostly IMO because he was the QB of a team that one a lot of championships


Starr isn't considered great because of his stats. Those Packers were not a passing team. No team in the Black & Blue Division was a passing team then. Others here have said Favre is a better player. Of course he is. And a better athlete. But that doesn't make him a better quarterback. I'm not say he's worse either, but I see a lot of underestimation of Starr in this thread. Almost as if some people are practically reluctant to include him in the top ten. Because everyone's a sucker for the flash, for the passing. But all that passing in the modern game only accounts for about a third of so of NFL history.

Starr was great for a number of reasons. Remember, he called the plays. People say he only appeared great because he was on a great team. Well, then I say that being on a great team doesn't mean that Starr wasn't also great.

Lombardi hung onto Starr at the beginning in spite of really crappy stats in Starr's early, pre-Lombardi years. (And those years ruin his stats also, btw.) What he liked was Starr's field command, his command of the team, his field 'generalship'. He (Lombardi) also saw some technique weaknesses in Starr's passing that he figured (correctly) that he could work with and help Starr. Damn, the whole team was great because of Lombardi, not because they were all so damned great (for all you talent nuts).

Starr also didn't throw interceptions. Sure, he had some years that were worse than others. But he had one year in which he threw THREE interceptions. Now stop a second and get your mind around that - THREE interceptions. You think HE had a great receiver corps? Max McGee wasn't even a starting receiver when he played that SuperBowl hungover and after just a couple hours of sleep. Starr had another year with FOUR interceptions.

But in the end, Starr's greatness was in his cool and his presence and in his ability to manage and run the team during battle - no mean feat and definitely not a key attribute to good quarterbacking. He was one of the best.

Starr easily deserves to be in the top ten of QB's - maybe in the top five. I'll never understand Packer fans, of all people, who fail to realize Starr's strengths.

BTW, FritzDon'tBlitz ("i was gonna raise hell about your selection of fran tarkenton as a top 10 quarterback"), did you ever see Tarkenton play? I'll tell you, I watched him in the 60's when the Vikings were far from being a contender and when Tarkenton's best days were still in front of him (most of his great stats came in the 70's) and he was something else, let me tell you. He gave the Packers fits every damned time. I don't care what his stats were, no one will ever tell me that Tarkenton wasn't a great quarterback. He was as much or more a problem for the Packers than Johnny Unitas ever was (and there's no arguing that Unitas had one of the great arms - he also had zero patience with interceptions or quarterbacks who throw them, btw). Frankly, namby pamby Elway doesn't deserve to be talked about in the same room as any of these guys. No one thinks twice about putting that overrated Ponce in a top ten list - because he played for freakin' ever and had great STATS. Well, he also had sucky stats, depending on which stats you read. And he couldn't do zilch in Denver until Denver got a grreat running game going.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Good post, Terry. I don't agree with you on Elway though. His stats weren't always great, but his teams won (and they didn't have great talent) and there is no debate that he was clutch.

It's going to be REALLY hard for the QBs that started playing after 1993 to match the championships that guys like Montana, Graham, Starr, Bradshaw, etc. had. FA has given us parity. Brady is about the only one who has a shot at joining the "big winners" group.

[Noodle]

I'll second Harvey, excellent post Terry. I'm also a big Starr guy, as well as a big Bradshaw guy, because I've always viewed the QB's no. 1 job as being a winner.

I'm also on board with PBMax, except for the Namath thing, though it is hard to appreciate now how much he meant during his salad days. It wasn't just the guarantee, it was the attitude and swagger.

But PBMax is right about Z -- he's way better than that player suck up Peter King. Cripes, that's what Havel would be like if he wrote for SI. Z is especially good at knowing line talent, and he was right when he looked at tape of the Pack last year, as he'd heard that Clifton and Tausch were underrated, and decided that they were not.

[Fosco33]

I like the varying lists provided by Woody and Harvey. Both have good points and there's plenty of QBs to chose who've had great careers.



Dr Z wrote that we Packer fans should be more worried about Favre and less about his article. I then find it odd that he'd even pay attention to Havel. You could write, "If Dr Z weren't obsessed with Favre bashing, he wouldn't pay attention to a GB hometown writer's defense of the HOF QB."

Zimmerman is from Michigan and his ties lead to interstate football rivalry. I, for one, will steer away from Z's articles - there are plenty of other writers online.

[woodbuck27]

I like the varying lists provided by Woody and Harvey. Both have good points and there's plenty of QBs to chose who've had great careers.



Dr Z wrote that we Packer fans should be more worried about Favre and less about his article. I then find it odd that he'd even pay attention to Havel. You could write, "If Dr Z weren't obsessed with Favre bashing, he wouldn't pay attention to a GB hometown writer's defense of the HOF QB."

Zimmerman is from Michigan and his ties lead to interstate football rivalry. I, for one, will steer away from Z's articles - there are plenty of other writers online.

pbmax's list is a chance to learn.

[b bulldog]

Havel is an ass

[NewsBruin]

I respect the heck out of Zimmerman. Educated at Columbia and Stanford. Army vet. Played rugby and lineman at the college and semi-pro level. Covered New York football for decades. He's seen a lot, knows reporting from both sides of the notepad, and copies nobody. In fact, I'd believe more that he'd go against the grain that other reporters set up than with it.

When did Z say something before anyone else? Last year's preseason, Vikings preview. Zimmerman was addressing the adulation for Daunte Culpepper. He said something along the lines of, "I don't buy it. His top receiver made him look very good. Without him, see the effect it will have on Minnesota's running game. And his knees are a lot worse than he's letting on."

I read that, and it came very true. I believe him, and if his thoughts on wine and his wife aren't your cup of tea, then don't read his mailbag column.

However, the degree that Packer fans (and it's not just Packer fans) will tear up a reporter when he says anything against their team is funny and sad. Oh, it's all a big East Coast conspiracy. Oh, they're all just trying to write something to make each other happy. Oh, they all sit in a room, trying to find the worst thing to say about Green Bay.

[Packnut]

Is Brett Favre a shoo-in? How about if he throws another 29 interceptions this season? And the whispers start -- maybe he never was that good to begin with. You think this is impossible? You don't know how quickly a great old star can fall from grace.



Never that good to begin with? 3 MVP's AND a Super Bowl win. Why is it is the previous paragraph to this one, He says Deion is a shoo-in but NEVER mentions anything about how much he slipped in his last few years. WHY?

This was nothing but a hack job on Favre and the Packers which he has been doing for quite a while. He rips the Pack and Favre more than anyone else over the last 5 years.

Why does'nt he have the balls to just come out and say he hates the Pack? I'd have much more respect for him then.

But the beauty of living in a free society is that we have the choice to dis-agree and I respect the rights of those of you who like his work. I, for one will never read anything else by him again so for me this issue is closed.

[Terry]

Thanks, Harvey and Noodle. Yeah, Harvey, you're right - I'll grant you that I went overboard on Elway. I suppose it's because that SuperBowl Holmgren lost still burns me. Still, while obviously he was really good, I tend to think he was overrated.

[woodbuck27]

Thanks, Harvey and Noodle. Yeah, Harvey, you're right - I'll grant you that I went overboard on Elway. I suppose it's because that SuperBowl Holmgren lost still burns me. Still, while obviously he was really good, I tend to think he was overrated.

John Elway. Great arm - leader and "the Comeback kid". :mrgreen:

[Doe]

I can't believe no one ever brings up Jim Kelly as one of the all time greats. He is definitely in my top 10 of all time.