LB HELP

[b bulldog]

The agent for Lavar Arrington has said that the Packers are in a strong position to land the LB. Chris Roth on WBAY, TV 2 NEWS just reported.

[MJZiggy]

I didn't even know we were interested.

[Partial]

Holy crap!!

Awesome. Bulldog if you're yankin my chain I may have to punch you right in the babymaker

[KYPack]

I'm an Arrington skeptic.

He wants big bucks. We could get a couple of the medium priced guys that have been discussed on here for what LaVar would cost.

Check his numbers, he had one big year, the rest of his time he's been hurt and played spotty. Let's pass and get some guards and other needed help.

[Partial]

1 yr contract. Thats probably what they will do.

[SkinBasket]

I like him. He's got the look of a killer with no soul, but he speaks with intelligence and clarity. How many guys - even nominal starters - would have handled the situation in DC with as much poise and patience as he did last year? Not many - if any. We've got the money. Use it.

[MadtownPacker]

Damn! Hell yeah!

Tarlam called this since last season almost. He is gonna talk smack!

[Harlan Huckleby]

it ain't news till he's signed.

excuse my cynacism.

[Guiness]

Here's the link. (http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=4752346)

So, did he visit, or not? You guys are all staking out the airport, right?

Of course, according to WBAY, the WWE heavyweight champion was also in town. At least that was confirmed.

[Fosco33]

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=4752346

[esoxx]

The agent for Lavar Arrington has said that the Packers are in a strong position to land the LB. Chris Roth on WBAY, TV 2 NEWS just reported.

I'm not biting on this one. So the agent says "the Packers are in a strong position to land" the LB." Of course they are. Just like they're in a strong position to land Charles Woodson, Ty Law or any other FA still out there....because they have $19 million dollars of cap room, the most of any team.

Sounds to me like a leveraging tatic by the agent to the NFC East and Florida teams LaVarr is reportedly interested in joining.

Sorry for my skeptism, but as I noted when there was pursuit of Adam Vinateri and Charles Woodson...I'll believe it when I see it (as in signed).

[Fosco33]

Let's play the IF game... if the Pack picks up LA, who does TT draft? Best case, trade down with Denver (picking up two 1st rounders) and get some offensive weapons. Thoughts?

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm with Harlan. Didn't we hear the same thing about Vinatieri and Woodson?

[Deputy Nutz]

It would be neat if this story meant a hill of beans. I will believe it when I hear TT talk about signing Lavar, I think it is a ploy by Arrington and his agent to get Miami to pony up some more cash.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think it's a ploy also. I refuse to get myself attached to any possible signee--since we've been toyed with all offseason. It would be interesting to know if Arrington was really that excited or if that's just a load of crap.

[woodbuck27]

It would be neat if this story meant a hill of beans. I will believe it when I hear TT talk about signing Lavar, I think it is a ploy by Arrington and his agent to get Miami to pony up some more cash.


Yea ! The thing I read on this deal said that he was so excited about the prospect of joining the Packers that he was going to call Brett Favre and tell him "lets get it on" !

If that's the case then forget about Lavar.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Will the Ravens cut Ray Lewis come June?

With Mike Sherman, you'd have Arilington, Barnett and Lewis starting at LB and Woodson, Harris, Collins, Michael Huff in the secondary, and John Abraham, Pickett, Kampman and KGB at DL.

Alas, Mike Sherman is GM no more! :sad:

[MJZiggy]

Will the Ravens cut Ray Lewis come June?

With Mike Sherman, you'd have Arilington, Barnett and Lewis starting at LB and Woodson, Harris, Collins, Michael Huff in the secondary, and John Abraham, Pickett, Kampman and KGB at DL.

Alas, Mike Sherman is GM no more! :sad:How do you figure Sherman would have gotten Arrington, Lewis, Woodson, Abraham, Pickett AND resigning Kampman?

[b bulldog]

With Mike Sherman we would be..., oh yeah I forgot, he is an assistant in Houston. He never even got a shot at a HC position. What about Sherman again??

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Will the Ravens cut Ray Lewis come June?

With Mike Sherman, you'd have Arilington, Barnett and Lewis starting at LB and Woodson, Harris, Collins, Michael Huff in the secondary, and John Abraham, Pickett, Kampman and KGB at DL.

Alas, Mike Sherman is GM no more! :sad:How do you figure Sherman would have gotten Arrington, Lewis, Woodson, Abraham, Pickett AND resigning Kampman?

Well, he would have $30 mil wont he? (5 mil would be tied up in Wahle).

[Anti-Polar Bear]

With Mike Sherman we would be..., oh yeah I forgot, he is an assistant in Houston. He never even got a shot at a HC position. What about Sherman again?

Hey bulldog! Big man walking in the park/Wigwam frightened of the dark/
Some kind of solitude is measured out in you/ You think you know but you haven't got a clue. (the beatles, "hey bulldog")

Thanks to Thompson, Sherman is justly being paid GM/Coach money right now; he doent need to be head coach this year.

[swede]

With Mike Sherman we would be..., oh yeah I forgot, he is an assistant in Houston. He never even got a shot at a HC position. What about Sherman again?

Hey bulldog! Big man walking in the park/Wigwam frightened of the dark/
Some kind of solitude is measured out in you/ You think you know but you haven't got a clue. (the beatles, "hey bulldog")

Thanks to Thompson, Sherman is justly being paid GM/Coach money right now; he doent need to be head coach this year.

Tank!

Your Beatles reference just bought you fifteen more minutes of goodwill with me. Attaboy, Toke Doob!

Forum life is better with you in the house. (Now if Texaspackerbacker would just join up and 'splain how we should trade up to get Reggie Bush.)

[Anti-Polar Bear]

With Mike Sherman we would be..., oh yeah I forgot, he is an assistant in Houston. He never even got a shot at a HC position. What about Sherman again?

Hey bulldog! Big man walking in the park/Wigwam frightened of the dark/
Some kind of solitude is measured out in you/ You think you know but you haven't got a clue. (the beatles, "hey bulldog")

Thanks to Thompson, Sherman is justly being paid GM/Coach money right now; he doent need to be head coach this year.

Not sure what you mean, but "hey bulldog" is a pretty good song by the beatles. Just ask Nutz, he's a beatle nuts.

[swede]

Yeah I had to go back and edit my post. I forgot to add the smart remarks. Hey Bulldog is a gem of a Beatles song.

[Harlan Huckleby]

"You can talk to me,
you can talk to me,
If you're lonely you can talk to me."

All the John Lennon songs had bite. Hey, I made an unintentional pun. sorta.

I loved John Lennon.

[b bulldog]

Diversions are greAt when the facts aren't confronted. What is shermy doing in Houston and how many teams wanted him as their HC??? oNCE AGAIN, tANK IS TERRIBLY MISGUIDED AND SHOWS HIS LACK OF ANY FOOTBALL KNOWLEDGE. Than again, most he says is just to get a rise out of people isn't it.

[MadtownPacker]

Diversions are greAt when the facts aren't confronted. What is shermy doing in Houston and how many teams wanted him as their HC??? oNCE AGAIN, tANK IS TERRIBLY MISGUIDED AND SHOWS HIS LACK OF ANY FOOTBALL KNOWLEDGE. Than again, most he says is just to get a rise out of people isn't it.

Tank is here to make us all feel better about ourselves. :mrgreen:

[Tarlam!]

Damn! Hell yeah!

Tarlam called this since last season almost. He is gonna talk smack!

Yup, this is my dream, I would have traded KGB to do this deal. If this happens, I will forgive the 4-12 season immeiately.

I wish we'd get Woodson, too.

[MadtownPacker]

Yup, this is my dream, I would have traded KGB to do this deal. If this happens, I will forgive the 4-12 season immeiately.

I wish we'd get Woodson, too.

Must be your week. Good to have something to talk about though.

Look at Lavar talking to Favre. Believe this is when Favre messed his knee up in 2002. They must have been making dinner plans and tripped.
http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/packer/img/news/apr06/tlavar0410.jpg

[Tarlam!]

It sure is my week. I got financing for my new house, since I sold my current house to move to the USA, and we all know what happened to that.

I got a job so I can repay the debt.

I bought my wife a new car today, that will be delivered in June. Suzuki SX4. Top little car....

TT interviews my dream 'backer. If he signs him and drafts Hawk I'll be over the moon. I am quite cocky about this being a possibility, cause TT played at LB...

[SkinBasket]

It sure is my week. I got financing for my new house, since I sold my current house to move to the USA, and we all know what happened to that.

I got a job so I can repay the debt.

I bought my wife a new car today, that will be delivered in June. Suzuki SX4. Top little car....



Just don't go all MC Hammer on us and blow everything you've got gold plating your toilets. You know where that leads.

[Tarlam!]

I wondered what ever happened to him....now I know!

[Patler]

Yup, this is my dream, I would have traded KGB to do this deal. If this happens, I will forgive the 4-12 season immeiately.

I wish we'd get Woodson, too.

Must be your week. Good to have something to talk about though.

Look at Lavar talking to Favre. Believe this is when Favre messed his knee up in 2002. They must have been making dinner plans and tripped.
http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/packer/img/news/apr06/tlavar0410.jpg

Nice picture, but I didn't think Favre ever got tackled until last year when TT let the guards get away! :? :wink: :lol:

[KYPack]

Everyone has broken the code. Each village needs an idiot & Tank is ours.

Arrington may not even be close to the answer to our LB problems.

Check his statistics:

Career statistics

Year Team G Tackles Sacks INTs INTTDs FFums DefTDs PD
2000-01 Washington 16 55 4.0 0 0 0 0 4
2001-02 Washington 14 99 0.5 3 1 0 1 9
2002-03 Washington 16 95 11 0 0 4 1 8
2003-04 Washington 16 90 6 0 0 6 0 11
2004-05 Washington 4 15 1 0 0 0 0 2
2005-06 Washington 13 47 0 0 0 0 0 1
Totals 79 401 22.5 3 1 10 2 35


Hard to read, I know. Great year 4 years ago, solid year 3 years ago, hurt & a head case since then. Joe Gibbs doesn't sit people on the bench cause they are playing great.

I'd pass on the guy

[HarveyWallbangers]

Year Team G Tackles Sacks INTs INTTDs FFums DefTDs PD
2000-01 Washington 16 55 4.0 0 0 0 0 4
2001-02 Washington 14 99 0.5 3 1 0 1 9
2002-03 Washington 16 95 11 0 0 4 1 8
2003-04 Washington 16 90 6 0 0 6 0 11
2004-05 Washington 4 15 1 0 0 0 0 2
2005-06 Washington 13 47 0 0 0 0 0 1
Totals 79 401 22.5 3 1 10 2 35

I don't know I'd say he was solid in 2001, and he was great in 2002 and 2003. I think he made the Pro Bowl all three years. I think a guy with 90 tackles, 6 sacks, 6 forced fumbles, and 11 pass deflections (which is a lot for a LB) would qualify as great and not just solid. He was injured in 2004, so it's hard to knock him there--especially since he's been mostly healthy throughout his career. It seems like last year was the only year that he really disappointed. He just fell out of favor in Washington for some reason. They also had a couple of other LBs that really stepped up in Marcus Washingtona and Lemar Marshall. This guy is immensely talented. The upside is as good as it gets. There is some risk, but usually guys with talent wouldn't be available without some risk. It's not like he's been a real disappointment his whole career (e.g. 3 Pro Bowls).

I'd take him in a heartbeat. It will cost a lot, but we can afford to frontload a contract for him and Woodson and not hurt our future cap too bad. I say go for it. If Thompson does this, he'll get all the credit in the world in my book for waiting to pounce on two good players. The longer the wait is though the less likely it will happen. I'm afraid it will just be another tease.

[Deputy Nutz]

I wouldn't call Lavar a head case, I would call Joe Gibbs a control freak.

I tell you what if Lavar played for Parcels he seriously would have been the next LT if not better. A little control is called for, but a player like Arrington needs to be let loose, and he needs to be in attack mode 100% of the time.

When the Skins actually let him play this year, he absolutely tore it up. Go and look at his game by game stats. See when he actually got to start and you would be suprised.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Each village needs an idiot & Tank is ours.

Also, each village needs an whore and the Kentucky is ours. I'm not fluent in Italian but according to the "Simpsons," kentucky is Italian for "whore." Don't believe me? Watch the show. :?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Than again, most he says is just to get a rise out of people isn't it.

Actually, I say what i believe and I believe Sherman wouldve taken the Pack to the SB last year if he were still gm, Harrington would be the next great Packer QB, Michael Huff is the real deal, and thompson is terrible and a polar bear.

[Harlan Huckleby]

For you folk that believe that Arrington is dumb, lazy, or uncoachable: How did he make it to Pro Bowl three straight years? Isn't the proof on the field?

I agree his injury problems and fallout with the coaches the last couple years are a downside. But that's why he's in free agency! If the guy had no flaws, he would be gone, or never available in the first place.

Arrington is not a yes or no question, it's a matter of negotiating an acceptable cost, considering everything. (duh, excuse the obvious)

[Patler]

For you folk that believe that Arrington is dumb, lazy, or uncoachable: How did he make it to Pro Bowl three straight years? Isn't the proof on the field?

I agree his injury problems and fallout with the coaches the last couple years are a downside. But that's why he's in free agency! If the guy had no flaws, he would be gone, or never available in the first place.

Arrington is not a yes or no question, it's a matter of negotiating an acceptable cost, considering everything. (duh, excuse the obvious)

Since I rarely saw a Washington game, its difficult to comment. But the story is that in his first few years he was allowed to pretty much "free lance", and that he resisted the new staff insistance on a more disciplined role.

The question for any team signing him is two fold, within the defense to be played, can he be allowed to "freelance"? Alternatively, can he be convinced to play the role asked of him?

This is not an unusual situation. There are many great athletes that can not conform their play to a disciplined style. As a result, the same player can be a great player for one coach and a nonfactor for another coach.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You're right, Shamrock, Arrington isn't going to fit everywhere, and it's gonna cost him some dough.

You're a great poster, glad that you joined up with the Rats. Something awfully familiar about you. Well, it's a small world, maybe we met sometime before.

[woodbuck27]

[quote="Harlan Huckleby"]You're right, Shamrock, Arrington isn't going to fit everywhere, and it's gonna cost him some dough.



It's been reported that the agents for Lavar 'the Poston's who go for lucrative contracts for their clients and often get them (they also represent Charles Woodson) asked $54 million over 7 years from the NY Giants.

In another possible acquisition. The Packers also are considering Baltimore backup safety Chad Williams, who made a free-agent visit on Friday. Williams has played in all 64 games for the Ravens since being drafted in the sixth round in 2002. He has four sacks and eight interceptions in his career.

[woodbuck27]

Yup, this is my dream, I would have traded KGB to do this deal. If this happens, I will forgive the 4-12 season immeiately.

I wish we'd get Woodson, too.

Must be your week. Good to have something to talk about though.

Look at Lavar talking to Favre. Believe this is when Favre messed his knee up in 2002. They must have been making dinner plans and tripped.
http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/packer/img/news/apr06/tlavar0410.jpg

Nice picture, but I didn't think Favre ever got tackled until last year when TT let the guards get away! :? :wink: :lol:

Yup ! That was really ugly and came just before OUR bye week or the consecutive start string was le coup de gras.

I can still see that leg twisting under him.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Since I rarely saw a Washington game, its difficult to comment. But the story is that in his first few years he was allowed to pretty much "free lance", and that he resisted the new staff insistance on a more disciplined role.

But, isn't this why he'd be a good fit here, from what you hear about the LB spot in a Jim Bates defense. LBs aren't responsible for as much gap responsibility. They want their LBs to run to the ball. That's why they favor speed over size at LB. It's been stated that it's easy for a LB to learn the position in this defense, and that is why guys like Brady Poppinga and Roy Manning can start their rookie years. I think it would be a damn good fit. Let him freelance here into 90 tackles, 6 sacks, 6 forced fumbles, and 10 pass deflections. Those stats spell P-L-A-Y-M-A-K-E-R!!!

[Patler]

You're right, Shamrock, Arrington isn't going to fit everywhere, and it's gonna cost him some dough.
.

Personally, I would like to see him come to GB. Something to get excited about for the upcoming season, other than the possible indoctrination by fire of Aaron Rodgers!.

[Patler]

Something awfully familiar about you. Well, it's a small world, maybe we met sometime before.

Do you believe in reincarnation? Maybe we met as Roman Gladiators or something?

[KYPack]

Since I rarely saw a Washington game, its difficult to comment. But the story is that in his first few years he was allowed to pretty much "free lance", and that he resisted the new staff insistance on a more disciplined role.

But, isn't this why he'd be a good fit here, from what you hear about the LB spot in a Jim Bates defense. LBs aren't responsible for as much gap responsibility. They want their LBs to run to the ball. That's why they favor speed over size at LB. It's been stated that it's easy for a LB to learn the position in this defense, and that is why guys like Brady Poppinga and Roy Manning can start their rookie years. I think it would be a damn good fit. Let him freelance here into 90 tackles, 6 sacks, 6 forced fumbles, and 10 pass deflections. Those stats spell P-L-A-Y-M-A-K-E-R!!!

Whoa. I find myself on the other side of an issue with Blue Dog and Harvey, eh?

Some of the pro Arrington points are quite valid. The guy was a tremendous playmaker 3 and 4 years ago. And if he's 100%, he'd fit well in the Bates defense. One of the knocks on him is he isn't a scheme guy, he likes to ball react rather than stay in position. Here, he can flow to the ball. But there are enuff negatives to rule him out with the Pack.

Joe Gibbs had problems with the guy and I think he is a butt head. He thinks he's the greatest and has a monster ego. Maybe he's learned his lesson, but he could still cause problems.

His contract and salary expectations are as big as his ego. Why should we invest as much in a guy as Arrington will demand. We need linebackers, not one star backer. i can't see blowing are resopurces on a guy who might not be a sure pay-off.

He has been hurt and has slowed down from the stellar level of 4 yearw ago. I realize he's a helluva talent, the 3 Pro Bowls speak for themselves. I just don't believe he's the Pro Bowl Playmaker of old.

I'd like to see us get two or three vet Lb's that are hard hat guys than Arrinton with all his question marks.

[HarveyWallbangers]

KY,

I don't think we need to worry about it because it ain't going to happen, but I'm convinced Arrington would be a big upgrade on Taylor or whomever is slated to start at OLB and I'm convinced Woodson would be a big upgrade on Carroll. Combine that with the acquisitions of Pickett and Manuel, the drafting of a LB like Hawk, and the natural progression of some young guys like Montgomery, Cole, Jenkins, CWill, Carroll, Collins, Poppinga, and even Barnett--and I'm convinced we'd have ourselves a damn good defense. Instant credibility. People would be on the Packers bandwagon and we'd have some momentum going in our favor after a HORRENOUS offseason filled with negativity.

[MJZiggy]

Since I rarely saw a Washington game, its difficult to comment. But the story is that in his first few years he was allowed to pretty much "free lance", and that he resisted the new staff insistance on a more disciplined role.

But, isn't this why he'd be a good fit here, from what you hear about the LB spot in a Jim Bates defense. LBs aren't responsible for as much gap responsibility. They want their LBs to run to the ball. That's why they favor speed over size at LB. It's been stated that it's easy for a LB to learn the position in this defense, and that is why guys like Brady Poppinga and Roy Manning can start their rookie years. I think it would be a damn good fit. Let him freelance here into 90 tackles, 6 sacks, 6 forced fumbles, and 10 pass deflections. Those stats spell P-L-A-Y-M-A-K-E-R!!!

Whoa. I find myself on the other side of an issue with Blue Dog and Harvey, eh?

Some of the pro Arrington points are quite valid. The guy was a tremendous playmaker 3 and 4 years ago. And if he's 100%, he'd fit well in the Bates defense. One of the knocks on him is he isn't a scheme guy, he likes to ball react rather than stay in position. Here, he can flow to the ball. But there are enuff negatives to rule him out with the Pack.

Joe Gibbs had problems with the guy and I think he is a butt head. He thinks he's the greatest and has a monster ego. Maybe he's learned his lesson, but he could still cause problems.

His contract and salary expectations are as big as his ego. Why should we invest as much in a guy as Arrington will demand. We need linebackers, not one star backer. i can't see blowing are resopurces on a guy who might not be a sure pay-off.

He has been hurt and has slowed down from the stellar level of 4 yearw ago. I realize he's a helluva talent, the 3 Pro Bowls speak for themselves. I just don't believe he's the Pro Bowl Playmaker of old.

I'd like to see us get two or three vet Lb's that are hard hat guys than Arrinton with all his question marks.

In an article shortly before he was cut (in which ironically the team denied that he was to be cut) he said that he learned his lesson, that he understood that he was benched because he wasn't ready to perform after his injury, and that he shouldn't have had such an attitude about it. It was an interesting read and I don't think I'd mind at all if he showed up in GB.

[KYPack]

KY,

I don't think we need to worry about it because it ain't going to happen, but I'm convinced Arrington would be a big upgrade on Taylor or whomever is slated to start at OLB and I'm convinced Woodson would be a big upgrade on Carroll. Combine that with the acquisitions of Pickett and Manuel, the drafting of a LB like Hawk, and the natural progression of some young guys like Montgomery, Cole, Jenkins, CWill, Carroll, Collins, Poppinga, and even Barnett--and I'm convinced we'd have ourselves a damn good defense. Instant credibility. People would be on the Packers bandwagon and we'd have some momentum going in our favor after a HORRENOUS offseason filled with negativity.

I was always a fan of what Bill Belachick did with NE in 2000. He totally rebuilt that D. He brought a whole fleet of old LB's that knew the league cold and put in a buch of schemes that got 'em in position to make plays. guys like Roman Pifher that were former All-Pro's.

We could use some Nick Greisen's that would be blue collar and knock people around.

I guess I'm a hypocrite, becuase i think signing Woodson would be the good move. Somehow I feel he would play hard and keep his head on straight. Arrington flat out scares me. I feel like he's blow up in our face. Are we out of the race for Woodson?

Hadn't heard that for sure, yet.

[HarveyWallbangers]

We could use some Nick Greisen's that would be blue collar and knock people around.

Yuck! We have a bunch of Nick Greisen types. We need playmakers.

For his career, Nick Greisen has played 54 games and started 31 games. He has a grand total of 4 sacks, 0 interceptions, 4 forced fumbles, and 10 pass deflections. His career high is 88 tackles.

Arrington has had seasons of 99 tackles, 0.5 sacks, 3 interceptions, and 9 pass deflections; 95 tackles, 11 sacks, 4 forced fumbles, and 8 pass deflections; 90 tackles, 6 sacks, 6 forced fumbles, and 11 pass deflections.

[MJZiggy]

I get the feeling we're going to be hearing of a lot of visits, but not a lot of signings before the draft... :neutral:

[KYPack]

We could use some Nick Greisen's that would be blue collar and knock people around.

Yuck! We have a bunch of Nick Greisen types. We need playmakers.

For his career, Nick Greisen has played 54 games and started 31 games. He has a grand total of 4 sacks, 0 interceptions, 4 forced fumbles, and 10 pass deflections. His career high is 88 tackles.

Arrington has had seasons of 99 tackles, 0.5 sacks, 3 interceptions, and 9 pass deflections; 95 tackles, 11 sacks, 4 forced fumbles, and 8 pass deflections; 90 tackles, 6 sacks, 6 forced fumbles, and 11 pass deflections.

Well Harv, we're basically done here. You like Arrington & I don't. I think we need numbers. We flat out don't have any linebackers. I'd like to see us add more than one. I want some lunch bucket pluggers, you want a playmaking star.

My main problem with Arrington was last season. I saw 3 Skins games last year that I can recall. Once Arrington was on the pine. Once he played inconsistently. And in the last game he played really well. To me, the guy is an in and outer & not worth the big $.

[Bretsky]

We could use some Nick Greisen's that would be blue collar and knock people around.

Yuck! We have a bunch of Nick Greisen types. We need playmakers.

For his career, Nick Greisen has played 54 games and started 31 games. He has a grand total of 4 sacks, 0 interceptions, 4 forced fumbles, and 10 pass deflections. His career high is 88 tackles.

Arrington has had seasons of 99 tackles, 0.5 sacks, 3 interceptions, and 9 pass deflections; 95 tackles, 11 sacks, 4 forced fumbles, and 8 pass deflections; 90 tackles, 6 sacks, 6 forced fumbles, and 11 pass deflections.

Badger hater aka hockey troll; we don't have a bunch of Griesen's. At the absolute worst Griesen is our #3 LB. He's much better than Dobber Thomas, Manning, and whoever the hell else we have to fill spaces on the field, and he may be as effective as Taylor when given the chance.

[HarveyWallbangers]

At the absolute worst Griesen is our #3 LB.

Not if we draft Hawk.

Taylor > Greisen