Are we gritty enough?

[th87]

Merry Christmas, all!

So Patler and I touched on a concept in the close losses thread that I think is relevant to the subject and has been overlooked somewhat.

I was watching Holmgren soundbytes, and he talked about how the 96 team "wanted it more". A cliche, right? But upon thinking about it, that team had some "ruthless" players on the field, like White, Simmons, Winters, Favre, etc. Guys that would run into a brick wall to win. That extra ruthlessness, I feel, contributed to their success. As Patler said, that extra intimidation results in an edge, which ultimately makes it easier to win. Perennial contenders like the Steelers have "psychos" like Harrison and Polamalu on their team. The Patriots have a cold-blooded Brady and Belichick.

I don't feel like our team has enough of these types of players. Of course, they are immensely talented, but very few seem to have that extra gear to want to pummel and embarrass their opponents. Lots of nice guys. Lots of finesse, pretty guys. None of these things are problems by themselves, but I feel like this team needs a psycho or three to impose their will on opponents. Michael Jordan, for example relished not only winning, but thoroughly demolishing his competition. Someone with that mentality would go a long way.

I feel that this is the main issue in our poor close game record.

[mraynrand]

plenty of gritty guys - just not talented enough is all. Wouldn't mind seeing a guy like Simmons with a nasty streak out there though.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_dHNPOvB-KC0/TQ7-9WU-PlI/AAAAAAAAATQ/1Ufl9jpv1mY/s1600/AKuhn.jpg

[bobblehead]

I don't buy it on defense for sure. Woodson is tough as nails. Bishop and Bigby both play tough. Hawk stands up guards consistently (but doesn't shed them). Our DL is amongst the biggest and most physical in the league.

On offense we might lean towards finesse, but we aren't exactly pussies. Driver is fearless over the middle. Every RB that gets snaps will stick their nose into a blitzing LB without hesitation. As for the OL....well, its tough to be a "physical" pass blocker. You maul the D in the run game, and get mauled in the pass set. Its just the way it goes. We don't run enough to consistently wear a defense down.

[denverYooper]

Gritty? Rodgers is there. I would argue that Finley is also. After Sunday's performance, I feel Raji might turn out to be one of those guys. Clay when he's healthy.

[Fritz]

The Packers' offense needs to make like a turkey and eat some pebbles. That'll give 'em grit.

[Patler]

Gritty? Rodgers is there. I would argue that Finley is also. After Sunday's performance, I feel Raji might turn out to be one of those guys. Clay when he's healthy.

I don't see Rodgers as gritty (my interpretation of "gritty", anyway), too fragile; and with the two concussions he will simply have to approach things differently the rest of his career, whether he thinks so or not. Part of being "gritty" is a demeanor that I don't think Rodgers has, but that is OK in a QB.

Finley was anything but gritty as a rookie. His blocking was atrocious (he looked afraid) and he would barely reach for the few balls thrown his way. He looked a lot better last year, at least physical enough to last in the league. I think he took another step forward this season, but it was so short it really proved nothing. How he will come back next year is anyone's guess.

Mathews is the epitome of what I understand as "gritty". He likes to destroy people, tackles roughly and never stops.
Bishop, too, likes to hit as hard as he can all the time. I think the defense needed him.
Woodson is for a corner.
Raji is getting there.
Collins goes hot and cold.
Bigby was before all the injuries.
Williams and Jenkins - no; but good players.
Same for Hawk, who is mostly a drag-down type tackler.
Kuhn is as a runner. Always delivers the blow.
Sitton I think is tough, but I never see him destroy anyone with a block
The other lineman I would classify as "technicians."
Driver is as a receiver and tries as a blocker, but isn't as a blocker.
Jennings - not at all, but a good receiver.

All the above per my perception of "gritty"!

[th87]

I agree with Patler's interpretation.

No doubt the guys are tough players, or that they deliver hits - that's not what I'm disputing. It's whether they relish making those hits; whether they look to pummel their opponent. James Harrison and Ray Lewis take a special pleasure in delivering knockouts - they're crazy. Tom Brady has a different type of this - he really, really wants to embarrass the other team. A Jordan-like zeal. Rodgers is different, in that he's more relaxed, I'll work hard and make the right plays, and let's hope for the best. Not a "I MUST obliterate this team at all costs" type. And that's okay for QB; I didn't get that impression from Montana or Young either.

[Fritz]

Rooster Cogburn is gritty. We need him to coach special teams!

[swede]

Rooster Cogburn on Devin Hester: You can spit in his eye, you can make him eat sand out of the road, you can shoot him in the foot and I'll hold him for you - but first we gotta catch him.

[denverYooper]

Rooster Cogburn is gritty. We need him to coach special teams!

See, he was gritty in obvious ways but I wonder if the title "True Grit" referred to him or to Mattie Ross -- or most likely both of them. I feel that she embodied the title with her courageous resolve to see her plans through and so was every bit as gritty in her own way, even if it's not in the "down and dirty" sense that is generally implied by the more literal sense of the word. Especially given the context within which the piece was set, her independence and confidence were less than common.

Which segues nicely to why I included Rodgers in the "gritty" category.


I don't see Rodgers as gritty (my interpretation of "gritty", anyway), too fragile; and with the two concussions he will simply have to approach things differently the rest of his career, whether he thinks so or not. Part of being "gritty" is a demeanor that I don't think Rodgers has, but that is OK in a QB.

My definition of grit was more that of "resolute or courageous". And I think that Rodgers has that as a player, plus the talent to be effective with it. Part of what I consider his "grit" is what got him his second concussion.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't see Rodgers as gritty (my interpretation of "gritty", anyway), too fragile

How the hell do you peg Rodgers as too fragile?

[Bossman641]

I'd argue "gritty" is a term that is lost in today's NFL. When I think gritty I think of players and teams that used to hate one another. With FA and the closeness players share today, I think grittiness is a thing of the past.

There is a reason guys like Harrison and Ray Lewis are considered dinosaurs of the past.

[Patler]

How the hell do you peg Rodgers as too fragile?

He's a cracked egg from here on out, for however long his career lasts.

[RashanGary]

Finley is a bad ass. He was my favorite Packer until Mattews exploded early in the year when he was healthy.

TE's block in tight quarters and catch, so it's not like he's going to string together a highlight reel of big hits, but when he gets a chance, I think he's always looking to take someones head off.

[RashanGary]

Rodgers sets the finesse tone on offense.

[MJZiggy]

I'd argue "gritty" is a term that is lost in today's NFL. When I think gritty I think of players and teams that used to hate one another. With FA and the closeness players share today, I think grittiness is a thing of the past.

There is a reason guys like Harrison and Ray Lewis are considered dinosaurs of the past.

I agree. It's hard to really hate someone when you know you could be playing for them next season.

[Pugger]

From what I hear Sitton has a nasty streak for an O lineman. He isnt' dirty by any stretch but he is relentless and hustles to the whistle. Rodgers played an entire half on a broken foot against NE several years ago. Didn't #4 play with a concussion earlier in his career? It isn't until recently that teams are taking "getting your bell rung' more seriously. I vaguely remember someone giving Favre smelling salts right before he went back in a game a couple of times. Today he'd never go back in like that. But Patler is right, Rodgers will have to be a little more careful about getting unnecessary hits in the future if he wants a long career.

[Scott Campbell]

How the hell do you peg Rodgers as too fragile?


Especially after labeling Mathews as gritty. Mathews has been much more injury prone than Rodgers.

[packerbacker1234]

You want to talk aobut Gritty at the QB position.

When I think of Gritty for the QB, I think of the grind it out type guys. The guys that get hit a lot, yet still find ways to move the chains.

Think Big Ben for the steelers, or msot recently what Flynn did against NE. Not only was it a gusty performance, it was a grind it out type performance, He got hit a lot - some his fault some the fault of the OL not knowing it's assignements - but he found ways to move the chains. He was a grinder, and it's a style we just haven't seen in GB for a long time. That was at least a "gritty" performance by flynn.

Rodgers, to me, is more of a finesse player. He relies on wide open pockets, and crisp passes with a little touch of them. He's more of a Peyton Manning mold at QB, in that he is a big time thinker, and relies a lot on "touch". Doesn't always care as much about getting first downs as he does about what WR that is the deepest is open. Doesn't like to settle for the 5 yard passes like a grinder does. He's really good, great even, but hardly does he have a gritty demeanor about him. Broken foot, two concussions... not exactly great at taking hits.

[th87]

I'm not looking at this as a toughness issue or a propensity for injury.

I'm looking at this solely from a mental standpoint. Do we have psychos on the field? Ray Lewis, James Harrison, Kevin Greene, Wayne Simmons, John Randle, Ray Nitschke, Ronnie Lott type mentalities.

Angry players.

[Bretsky]

I like Rodgers a lot but would not consider him Gritty either.

I'd like a couple hard ass players. Tough guy Maulers, like the two All Americans at OL for UW Madison. They fight on the sideline about who erred with each other.

I loved Wayne Simmons and would love another tough guy on the D as well

[Fritz]

We want a dickhead on our side!

[th87]

We want a dickhead on our side!

Haha, as odd as it sounds, I do think that having a few would solve our end of game woes.

[th87]

Finley is a bad ass. He was my favorite Packer until Mattews exploded early in the year when he was healthy.

TE's block in tight quarters and catch, so it's not like he's going to string together a highlight reel of big hits, but when he gets a chance, I think he's always looking to take someones head off.

Right on. Finley has the right attitude. Very badass.

[th87]

You want to talk aobut Gritty at the QB position.

When I think of Gritty for the QB, I think of the grind it out type guys. The guys that get hit a lot, yet still find ways to move the chains.

Think Big Ben for the steelers, or msot recently what Flynn did against NE. Not only was it a gusty performance, it was a grind it out type performance, He got hit a lot - some his fault some the fault of the OL not knowing it's assignements - but he found ways to move the chains. He was a grinder, and it's a style we just haven't seen in GB for a long time. That was at least a "gritty" performance by flynn.

Rodgers, to me, is more of a finesse player. He relies on wide open pockets, and crisp passes with a little touch of them. He's more of a Peyton Manning mold at QB, in that he is a big time thinker, and relies a lot on "touch". Doesn't always care as much about getting first downs as he does about what WR that is the deepest is open. Doesn't like to settle for the 5 yard passes like a grinder does. He's really good, great even, but hardly does he have a gritty demeanor about him. Broken foot, two concussions... not exactly great at taking hits.

Rodgers is a tough dude. But you're right that is style is more of a finesse type. That's okay though - it didn't hurt Montana or Young. Brady is finesse too, but he has Jordan-like competitiveness - something I don't see from Rodgers. But Bart Starr was laid back too, so this isn't something that necessarily hurts Rodgers.

[Fritz]

Joe Kapp was gritty as all get out.

[Patler]

How the hell do you peg Rodgers as too fragile?


Especially after labeling Mathews as gritty. Mathews has been much more injury prone than Rodgers.

- I should have never used those two words, "too fragile" because it caused you to focus on something that is really not part of being "gritty" - whether or not you are injury prone. I suspect that a lot of players who I think of as gritty are also injury prone.

- It appears the two of you focused on those two words I wrote about Rodgers, and ignored the balance of my rather lengthy post in which I explained what I think of as "gritty". I think I clearly explained why I think of Mathews as "gritty." "Mathews is the epitome of what I understand as "gritty". He likes to destroy people, tackles roughly and never stops."

- I do not see Rodgers as a guy that particularly enjoys a physical game, even if he is forced to endure one. I think Mathews relishes it. I get the feeling Rodgers wants to win badly, and after he hopes the opponents will feel good about themselves. I get the feeling Mathews is happiest if he totally dominates his opponent. I think Rodgers enjoys the mental aspect of the game more than the physical aspect. I think a lot of QBs do.

- Perhaps most importantly, among all starters, I think least important might be QB for the benefits of being "gritty" so long as your teammates do not perceive you as a wimp; and I do not think that is an issue for Rodgers.


As an aside, - I really do think Rodgers will be another concussion waiting to happen and his play will change because of it. I think his career will be one of those to which concussions will be tied as an overlying theme. Concussions will shorten his career, perhaps even dramatically. Part of my thinking on this stems from the first one, which seemed to come form a relatively innocent looking game situation. A QB sneak. While you can (and the Packers should) avoid QB sneaks in the future, there was little in that play that does not occur frequently. Then, the second concussion was fairly significant, with him experiencing headaches late in the week. I am concerned that he will experience more concussion from innocent hits like the first, but the symptoms will be increasingly worse. When it lingers for more than one missed game, it will be time to quit. I also think Rodgers will be analytical enough to make that decision, especially since he has other business interests that will substitute for football. He will not be one of those player who doesn't know what to do after football, and as a result he will be willing to leave sooner to pursue other interests.

[denverYooper]

Rodgers is a tough dude. But you're right that is style is more of a finesse type. That's okay though - it didn't hurt Montana or Young. Brady is finesse too, but he has Jordan-like competitiveness - something I don't see from Rodgers. But Bart Starr was laid back too, so this isn't something that necessarily hurts Rodgers.

Would you call the last Rodgers-led drive of the Atlanta game a "Jordan-like", gritty performance?

Another game that jumps out at me as "gritty" this year was the Chicago game. The TD pass to Finley inches above Urlacher's shoulder was as Jordan-esque as they come. Rodgers showed immense poise in that game and played the kind of short game that would seem to land him in the class of Brady as defined previously. It's too bad that Jones did not, because I had no question in my mind that #12 was going to march them down the field before that fumble.

I simply think of "gritty" in football as a characteristic of those guys who make big plays in big moments when they're needed, seemingly bending the game to their will--more along the lines of determination or Sisu, indomitable will. I choose to separate it from a person's general demeanor, so for me someone can be a real dick and still not be gritty. Likewise, they can be laid back in their media and day-to-day interactions a la Rodgers, but when the game is on the line they dig in and perform. Polamalu is a laid back guy off the field and not a dick but his play falls into that category that I consider gritty. Big Ben is gritty and a date raping jerk, etc.

[denverYooper]

- It appears the two of you focused on those two words I wrote about Rodgers, and ignored the balance of my rather lengthy post in which I explained what I think of as "gritty". I think I clearly explained why I think of Mathews as "gritty." "Mathews is the epitome of what I understand as "gritty". He likes to destroy people, tackles roughly and never stops."

People do that on the internet? :lol:

[Patler]

How the hell do you peg Rodgers as too fragile?


Rodgers is a tough dude. But you're right that is style is more of a finesse type. That's okay though - it didn't hurt Montana or Young. Brady is finesse too, but he has Jordan-like competitiveness - something I don't see from Rodgers. But Bart Starr was laid back too, so this isn't something that necessarily hurts Rodgers.

The Packers of the '60s have frequently said that the Bart Starr fans saw after the game was not the Bart Starr of the huddle; that he was as fierce a competitor as anyone on the team. Apparently, he was not so laid back in the huddle.

[MadtownPacker]

You want to know who aint tough, that fat doughboy impersonator M3. A team is a reflection of it's HC and IMO that is exactly what the Packers are. Agreed that Clay and others are ruff and tumble dudes but the intimidation factor doesnt seems to be there throughout the team.

[Patler]

Finley is a bad ass. He was my favorite Packer until Mattews exploded early in the year when he was healthy.

TE's block in tight quarters and catch, so it's not like he's going to string together a highlight reel of big hits, but when he gets a chance, I think he's always looking to take someones head off.

I hope you are right, but I need to be convinced by Finley's play.
He was anything but a bad ass as a rookie. The guy looked scared to block and fought for no thrown balls. I gave him tremendous credit for seemingly changing his second season. But it is sometimes easy to act like a bad ass when things are going good, and 2009 went well for Finley. We'll see what happens next year battling back from a significant injury.

[th87]

Would you call the last Rodgers-led drive of the Atlanta game a "Jordan-like", gritty performance?

Another game that jumps out at me as "gritty" this year was the Chicago game. The TD pass to Finley inches above Urlacher's shoulder was as Jordan-esque as they come. Rodgers showed immense poise in that game and played the kind of short game that would seem to land him in the class of Brady as defined previously. It's too bad that Jones did not, because I had no question in my mind that #12 was going to march them down the field before that fumble.

I simply think of "gritty" in football as a characteristic of those guys who make big plays in big moments when they're needed, seemingly bending the game to their will--more along the lines of determination or Sisu, indomitable will. I choose to separate it from a person's general demeanor, so for me someone can be a real dick and still not be gritty. Likewise, they can be laid back in their media and day-to-day interactions a la Rodgers, but when the game is on the line they dig in and perform. Polamalu is a laid back guy off the field and not a dick but his play falls into that category that I consider gritty. Big Ben is gritty and a date raping jerk, etc.

I agree with the Sisu concept being part of the definition of gritty. And those performances you mentioned were great ones. He did exhibit signs of that will. However, he didn't have the Brady-Jordan relishing of it. Jordan got in the zone, yes. But he had an extra motivation to steal the soul of his opponent. He wasn't going to rest until he not only won, but that he thoroughly and utterly embarrassed his opponent. A General Sherman type thing, if you will. As Patler said, he is okay with his opponents feeling good afterwards, whereas Jordan would be happy if he got his defender to retire in tears.

[th87]

I hope you are right, but I need to be convinced by Finley's play.
He was anything but a bad ass as a rookie. The guy looked scared to block and fought for no thrown balls. I gave him tremendous credit for seemingly changing his second season. But it is sometimes easy to act like a bad ass when things are going good, and 2009 went well for Finley. We'll see what happens next year battling back from a significant injury.

Finley seems to have a little bit of the Jordan fire. Hopefully this stays focused on the field and not to contract disputes.

And regarding Starr, as that era predates me by 15 years, I defer to your expertise.

[Patler]

Finley seems to have a little bit of the Jordan fire. Hopefully this stays focused on the field and not to contract disputes.

And regarding Starr, as that era predates me by 15 years, I defer to your expertise.

Finley does seem like an interesting guy. Totally different attitude in year #2 vs. year #1. I truly hope it was signs of a man maturing and not just a temporary change. Returning from the injury, his contract year and possible changes in the offense will show us what his football personality really is. Last year he was the focus of the offense at times the second half and started out that way this year. I wonder if MM and AR have realized that they also need to keep the WRs involved more than what we saw early. Quarless might divert a few throws away from Finley in years to come, too. It looks that AR will have a lot of options. Hopefully Finley will see that as a good thing.

[Fritz]

But to reiterate my point - using Joe Kapp as an example - you can have a bunch of gritty guys on a team, but if they don't have talent, they're gonna lose.

A team needs guys who have both. Maybe that's the complaint - talent is there but not enough grit.

Maybe a Hines Ward type receiver, and a lineman who'll gouge a defender's eye at the bottom of the pile...maybe a couple guys like that would put this team over the top, if they had the talent to go with it.

[Patler]

But to reiterate my point - using Joe Kapp as an example - you can have a bunch of gritty guys on a team, but if they don't have talent, they're gonna lose.

A team needs guys who have both. Maybe that's the complaint - talent is there but not enough grit.

Maybe a Hines Ward type receiver, and a lineman who'll gouge a defender's eye at the bottom of the pile...maybe a couple guys like that would put this team over the top, if they had the talent to go with it.

I think everyone has acknowledged that you need talented players. You can even win just with that. I do think "grittiness" adds another dimension.

Joe Kapp might not be the best example for you. He was pretty darned successful. He is a member of the College Football HOF and the Canadian Football League HOF. He was a college All-American and took Berkely to the Rose Bowl. He won the Grey Cup and took the Vikings to the Super Bowl.

[MJZiggy]

I have a bit of a theory that grittiness also develops with a lot of time on one team and the ability to develop a little animosity toward other teams. Ok, so you've named several players. Ray Lewis is gritty, but look around him. I'll give you McGahee is intense, but are you really thinking that Joe Flacco is gritty? Ray Rice? Anquon Boldin has finesse more than grit imo. So I don't think they have any more grit than the Packers with Matthews, Barnett, and Bigby who may not have great talent, but loves to really hit. I guess that means I'm wondering exactly how many gritty players you have to have to be considered "gritty?"

[Patler]

I have a bit of a theory that grittiness also develops with a lot of time on one team and the ability to develop a little animosity toward other teams. Ok, so you've named several players. Ray Lewis is gritty, but look around him. I'll give you McGahee is intense, but are you really thinking that Joe Flacco is gritty? Ray Rice? Anquon Boldin has finesse more than grit imo. So I don't think they have any more grit than the Packers with Matthews, Barnett, and Bigby who may not have great talent, but loves to really hit. I guess that means I'm wondering exactly how many gritty players you have to have to be considered "gritty?"

Barnett? He sure doesn't fit my definition of gritty. He might be emotional, but not gritty.
In my opinion, an essential quality of "gritty" players is that they are very physical, delivering blows time after time. Barnett and Hawk lack that quality.

I sure can't sit here and judge a lot of teams, because I do not see them very often. However, I have seen a lot of Steeler games in recent weeks, and there is a noticeable difference to the typical Packer game. There is a physical intensity that I seldom see from the Packers, and you see it on offense, defense and special teams for the Steelers. A few weeks ago, Rodgers said the Packers are a finesse team offensively. I believe that is true. I think they are building a grittiness on defense with guys like Mathews, Raji and Bishop who will hit you with all they have whenever they can. I see little of that on offense or ST.

[MJZiggy]

Barnett? He sure doesn't fit my definition of gritty. He might be emotional, but not gritty.
In my opinion, an essential quality of "gritty" players is that they are very physical, delivering blows time after time. Barnett and Hawk lack that quality.

I sure can't sit here and judge a lot of teams, because I do not see them very often. However, I have seen a lot of Steeler games in recent weeks, and there is a noticeable difference to the typical Packer game. There is a physical intensity that I seldom see from the Packers, and you see it on offense, defense and special teams for the Steelers. A few weeks ago, Rodgers said the Packers are a finesse team offensively. I believe that is true. I think they are building a grittiness on defense with guys like Mathews, Raji and Bishop who will hit you with all they have whenever they can. I see little of that on offense or ST.

Then why criticize them for not being gritty on offense when that's not what they are trying to be? Do you have to be gritty to make the playoffs? I'd say the Ravens offense is more of a finesse offense, and they just made the playoffs for the third year in a row--and they beat the Steelers earlier this year.

[red]

Gritty=

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3597/3310561964_3fc9c7d946.jpg

[denverYooper]

Gritty=

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3597/3310561964_3fc9c7d946.jpg

Win

[esoxx]

The Packers dental plan was the worse in the league back then.

[RashanGary]

It looks like he's wearing some of those Favre flyless trousers.

[Patler]

Then why criticize them for not being gritty on offense when that's not what they are trying to be? Do you have to be gritty to make the playoffs? I'd say the Ravens offense is more of a finesse offense, and they just made the playoffs for the third year in a row--and they beat the Steelers earlier this year.

I think it helps if you do have grittiness. That is why I have commented on it. MM talks a tough game, but does not practice it offensively. I think you can emphasize finesse while also having a physical intensity when you need it. One of the most enjoyable hockey teams I ever was with did not play overly physical. They could pass circles around other opponents, and played that way most of the time. But, when other teams tried to play physical to take them off their finesse game, our boys would simple hit harder than they were hit, while continuing to pass.

I have no clue about the Ravens offense. I may have seen them once this year.

Over the years I believe the Colts have lacked grittiness. That may be a reason why they have had great records but only limited playoff success.

[bobblehead]

As I said in the other thread. If you win you get defined as gritty, if you lose, not so much.

[vince]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf9NGwMbot4&feature=player_embedded

[red]

yeah, kuhn is a gritty player

man, he had no holes. he just put his head down and ran as hard as he could into the pile, then kept pushing