James Jones!

[SkinBasket]

Is still a fucking retard. Over.

[SkinBasket]

And good fucking Christ is Bigby slow.

[esoxx]

Is still a fucking retard. Over.

He's just good enough to be bad.

[channtheman]

I fucking hate James Jones.

[Brando19]

Be happy, ass clown! The Packers are dominating the Giants! Just like I dominated your mom last night in the shed with a belt and a tire swing!

[SkinBasket]

Be happy, ass clown! The Packers are dominating the Giants! Just like I dominated your mom last night in the shed with a belt and a tire swing!

She said you were terrible. Too timid and smelled like pickles.

[red]

and remember when he was mouthing off earlier in the year about how he should be getting the ball more

fuck him

he's the classic WR primadonna. plays when he wants to play, can't concentrate, and things he's much better then he really is

[PA Pack Fan]

James Jones does suck. He can't catch a f'n thing. Jordy sucks too. I would start Donald Lee before either of those two clowns.

[Fritz]

I was very disappointed in Jones today - he dropped two, one being a potential game-clincher. Instead, Jones clenched his sphincter.

When his contract comes up, let him go.

[gabe]

On top of all that, the DOUCHE BAG refers to himself in third person, as far as I'm concerend your attention starved if you are doing that.

[sheepshead]

On top of all that, the DOUCHE BAG refers to himself in third person, as far as I'm concerend your attention starved if you are doing that.

People on here do that, creepy isn't it?

[Patler]

I was very disappointed in Jones today - he dropped two, one being a potential game-clincher. Instead, Jones clenched his sphincter.

When his contract comes up, let him go.

He also made a nice catch and powered ahead for a first down. He's an OK guy for a 3rd or 4th receiver, but not nearly reliable enough to replace Driver eventually.

Unless he comes back cheaply, let him go.

[bobblehead]

People on here do that, creepy isn't it?

Bobblehead frowns on people who do that.

[Packgator]

Jordy sucks too.

Jordy Nelson had four catches for 124 yards and a touchdown. Yeah.....he sucks.

[gbgary]

seriously...he's ok. he makes some plays and he drops some balls that should be caught. if only he were more consistant. keep him until we have someone better. dd won't be here much longer. neither jones or nelson are number two types...yet.

[PA Pack Fan]

Jordy Nelson had four catches for 124 yards and a touchdown. Yeah.....he sucks.

How many drops?

[Scott Campbell]

Jones is a tease. Flashes of brilliance sprinkled with liberal doses of stupidity. And he's been around long enough now that it's never going to get corrected.

[retailguy]

Jones is a tease. Flashes of brilliance sprinkled with liberal doses of stupidity. And he's been around long enough now that it's never going to get corrected.

James Jones = Robert Ferguson...

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

He is a good receiver...................ducking................





He is just inconsistent. He is always is position to make plays, and a lot of times he makes then, but like everyone has said he loses focus. If he wants a lot of money in the offseason I will not be sad to see him go, but if he comes back cheap I would still take him until we find someone better.

[Fritz]

Jones is a tease. Flashes of brilliance sprinkled with liberal doses of stupidity. And he's been around long enough now that it's never going to get corrected.

This is where I'm at with him now.

[VegasPackFan]

Lets not forget about him quitting on the route last week that created the INT at the Pats.

[packerbacker1234]

James Jones = Robert Ferguson...

Not really. Ferguson was a tease for all of 2 plays a season. James Jones is a tease for 2 or 3 plays a game. He is far more consistent than Ferguson ever was.

The issue with Jones isn't his talent. It isn't his physical tools. The what goes on between his ears. How he gives up plays and magically because of that it ends up in a pic. How he always turns his head up field before the ball is fully in the cradle (leads to a lot of his "bobble catches"). Yet, despite all this, Jones is not a bad #3 option. He can make plays, we've all seen enough of him now to know that, but he can't be relied upon all game, which is why he can't ascend Driver to the #2 spot. THe two catches Driver had in the game epitomize areas that Jones struggles with - effort plays.

The one handed left hand grab on a bad throw? Not sure Jones woulf of tried to extend for that. hte diving catch between defenders? Again, effort play and great concentration. Jones is great at catching the high point over shoulder ball just out of the defenders reach, but he doesn't like to make the effort grabs Driver excels at. That is what holds him back. That, and thinking he doesn't need to go 100% every play.

He is what he is. Not a horrible #3 wr, but not consistent enough to be in the top 2. He is good where he is at. The problem he is doesn't think #3 is good enough. Doubt he comes back when his contract is up if we still have Driver on the roster.

[3irty1]

Spoiled much people? JJ won't be in the probowl anytime soon but the guy has serious talent. That said I wouldn't mind benching him against the Bears next week...

[VermontPackFan]

Not really. Ferguson was a tease for all of 2 plays a season. James Jones is a tease for 2 or 3 plays a game. He is far more consistent than Ferguson ever was.

The issue with Jones isn't his talent. It isn't his physical tools. The what goes on between his ears. How he gives up plays and magically because of that it ends up in a pic. How he always turns his head up field before the ball is fully in the cradle (leads to a lot of his "bobble catches"). Yet, despite all this, Jones is not a bad #3 option. He can make plays, we've all seen enough of him now to know that, but he can't be relied upon all game, which is why he can't ascend Driver to the #2 spot. THe two catches Driver had in the game epitomize areas that Jones struggles with - effort plays.

The one handed left hand grab on a bad throw? Not sure Jones woulf of tried to extend for that. hte diving catch between defenders? Again, effort play and great concentration. Jones is great at catching the high point over shoulder ball just out of the defenders reach, but he doesn't like to make the effort grabs Driver excels at. That is what holds him back. That, and thinking he doesn't need to go 100% every play.

He is what he is. Not a horrible #3 wr, but not consistent enough to be in the top 2. He is good where he is at. The problem he is doesn't think #3 is good enough. Doubt he comes back when his contract is up if we still have Driver on the roster.

Yeah, what he said...
Jones will test the FA market and someone will pony up some big $ for his potential/flashes of brilliance. TT knows better and will not come close to matching it.

[SkinBasket]

The worst part about yesterday's game was the bobbling. Every goddamn ball he did catch bounced off his hands first, then he found the mental will to secure the ball afterward.

[mraynrand]

Jones is a tease. Flashes of brilliance sprinkled with liberal doses of stupidity. And he's been around long enough now that it's never going to get corrected.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_TIOfUEudo

[bobblehead]

Spoiled much people? JJ won't be in the probowl anytime soon but the guy has serious talent. That said I wouldn't mind benching him against the Bears next week...

My take. 2 years ago people on this board were telling us we had the best receiving corps in the NFL. Now, JJ is better than he was then, Jordy is better than he was then, and suddenly we suck because he makes some "poor concentration" plays. He is what he is....a very good talent who is borderline #2, but not quite there yet.

[sheepshead]

On a happier note how 'bout Drivers catches? Damn those gave me some warm and fuzzies.

[vince]

Fumbles and drops get you beat in close games, but that's the coach's fault, so I guess you keep Jones. If fumbles and drops were the player's fault, then I'd say you draft a replacement and move on from Jones. Trade him if possible.

[mraynrand]

Fumbles and drops get you beat in close games, but that's the coach's fault, so I guess you keep Jones. If fumbles and drops were the player's fault, then I'd say you draft a replacement and move on from Jones. Trade him if possible.


Well then ya gotta get rid o Jordy too! T.O. and Randy Moss should be available....

[Fritz]

I think he's a keeper as your # three guy, but he's not going to take #3 receiver money, I don't think. I think someone else will pony up, and as was said here, TT will not match that.

[vince]

Jordy gets one more year in my book to prove he can hold onto the ball since he's a year younger and doesn't speak about himself in the third person. You can't get rid of both of them in the same year anyway. That'd be too many rooks at once.

[Smidgeon]

Jordy gets one more year in my book to prove he can hold onto the ball since he's a year younger and doesn't speak about himself in the third person. You can't get rid of both of them in the same year anyway. That'd be too many rooks at once.

Plus, Jordy's faster than he looks. James Jones wouldn't have outrun that safety.

[rbaloha1]

Yeah, what he said...
Jones will test the FA market and someone will pony up some big $ for his potential/flashes of brilliance. TT knows better and will not come close to matching it.

Agree. The inconsistency prevents JJ from becoming a replacement for DD. Someone will offer big dollars and become disappointed.

[rbaloha1]

Jordy gets one more year in my book to prove he can hold onto the ball since he's a year younger and doesn't speak about himself in the third person. You can't get rid of both of them in the same year anyway. That'd be too many rooks at once.

Agree. JN must also display consistency -- drops too many passes.

[rbaloha1]

Plus, Jordy's faster than he looks. James Jones wouldn't have outrun that safety.

Deceptive long strider speed. Fools black dbs all the time.

[Brandon494]

Deceptive long strider speed. Fools black dbs all the time.

I think you mean all DBs. And you really think they see Jordy skin color and think the guy can't play? It's the damn NFL, not some high school football game. Foolish statement.

[rbaloha1]

I think you mean all DBs. And you really think they see Jordy skin color and think the guy can't play? It's the damn NFL, not some high school football game. Foolish statement.

Yes. Almost all cbs are black. In fact Jason Sehorn said qbs always targeted him because he was white. The NFL has a bias against non-blacks in skilled positions other than qbs. Wake up brother!

[RashanGary]

James Jones = Robert Ferguson...

The best year Ferguson ever had in the NFL was 520 yards. In Jones 4 years in the NFL, he's passed Fergusons best year ever twice and if not for the injury would probably be three times. Ferguson ended up with 2,000 yards total in his career. Jones is past him already. Jones is well on pace to finish somewhere in the top 200 reveivers to ever play the game in regard to total yardage. There is really no comparison.

Robert Ferguson was garbage and James Jones is a playmaker, having a productive career. It's not even close.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Keep in mind its not going to be easy to find someone better. The guy has serious talent and I think we are being a little to hard on him for yesterday. That back shoulder catch was not an easy catch and he made up for it one play later on 3rd and 10. The bomb he should of caught, but if you look at the paly I think the defenders arm/hand blinded him from seeing the ball for a second. He should have caught it still and I am not making excuses for him because it seems he does this a lot now, but the guy is a good receiver. If he started from week one opposite Jennings he would at least a 1,000 yards. Driver played great yesterday, but I remember just as many drops from him as I do JJ. Does any remember the play were the ball went between his legs and almost got picked off against the pats? That was pretty sad.

I would rather have JJ than Driver next season. But JJ shouldn't be paid like a top reciever until he proves it. Thats why I think we don't re-sign him this off-season. Some team will pay him a lot of money though...........

[retailguy]

The best year Ferguson ever had in the NFL was 520 yards. In Jones 4 years in the NFL, he's passed Fergusons best year ever twice and if not for the injury would probably be three times. Ferguson ended up with 2,000 yards total in his career. Jones is past him already. Jones is well on pace to finish somewhere in the top 200 reveivers to ever play the game in regard to total yardage. There is really no comparison.

Robert Ferguson was garbage and James Jones is a playmaker, having a productive career. It's not even close.

Justin - for me, football is about more than statistics. i could care less if Jones has better statistics. Ferguson was a "tease" for years, you always thought that greatness was just around the corner. Jones is a tease, greatness is just around the corner... Hence the comparison. Enjoy your statistics.

[MadtownPacker]

I think you mean all DBs. And you really think they see Jordy skin color and think the guy can't play? It's the damn NFL, not some high school football game. Foolish statement.
No he meant Black DBs. Also DBs that are scared of spiders, like watermelon, love White gurls, drink sizzer, and eat hella fried chicken.

Why the hell does JN get a pass if JJ dont? I aint really impressed with either one of them to take DD's place. If Im TT I tell them "Let's see either of you foolz make the stretched out catch or the one handed one the old man did yesterday and then we can talk about dollars". If any are so bad ass why does #80 get dialed when a clutch catch is needed.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

retailguy -

But you are just comparing him to a horrible Wr and saying they are one in the same. Say something to prove that. Ferguson was injury prone and didn't make nearly as much plays as JJ. I will take JH's stats over random comparisons.

JJ has made a lot of plays for this football team. The guy almost has 700 yards in limited playing time.......the dude can play. I don't know why the hell he fumbles against the Bears but those could just be fluke plays. I don't know why people want to rip the guys head off and they don't mentions mistakes by other WRs on this team. This WHOLE team has been inconsistent ALL year, not just JJ.

Driver I'm sure leads the team in drops and thats with him missing 2-3 games. Nelson leads all Wrs and Rbs in fumbles not JJ. People blame JJ for losing the first Bears game for us, but is it any worse than Jennings drop turned INT against the Lions? That would have been the difference in the game.

ALL of the packers WRs are inconsistent if you ask me. If I had to choose between Nelson, Driver and Jones I would take Jones everyday of the week. I do agree he is inconsistent, but I don't understand all the hate against Jones and not everyone else. He has played better than Driver this year if you ask me and at least on par with Nelson. JJ could start for at least half the teams in the NFL.

Jones =/ Ferguson

[vince]

good post MD. Jones is clearly better than Ferguson ever was, but his history gives him some baggage that tends to make people remember and emphasize his mistakes. I was surprised to see Driver so high on the list of dropped balls. I'd say my perception of Driver, driven by his history of spectacular catches and years of high production, causes people to tend to overlook them while the general perception of Jones causes people to remember his errors more. It seems like Jones' drops and fumbles are more blatant and costly than the other guys' - notwithstanding the big one by Jennings you cited that ultimately cost the team that game (although don't tell that to the Everything is McCarthy's Fault crowd).

[Bretsky]

Jones has shown way more IMO than Ferguson ever did. I think the Fraud stands by himself.

I think Jones may develop into a #2 WR someday and is worthy of a #3. I never thought that much of Fraudie

[retailguy]

Ferguson was a "tease" for years, you always thought that greatness was just around the corner. Jones is a tease, greatness is just around the corner... Hence the comparison.


retailguy -

But you are just comparing him to a horrible Wr and saying they are one in the same. Say something to prove that. Ferguson was injury prone and didn't make nearly as much plays as JJ. I will take JH's stats over random comparisons.



md - please re-read what I wrote. That's my comparison and I stand by it. You can make it something it isn't, and I can't control that.

They both are "teases". I think that's all they ever will be, but we'll see. Jones is certainly "ok", but I'm not a fan. If you are, great! We disagree.

[bobblehead]

No he meant Black DBs. Also DBs that are scared of spiders, like watermelon, love White gurls, drink sizzer, and eat hella fried chicken.

Why the hell does JN get a pass if JJ dont? I aint really impressed with either one of them to take DD's place. If Im TT I tell them "Let's see either of you foolz make the stretched out catch or the one handed one the old man did yesterday and then we can talk about dollars". If any are so bad ass why does #80 get dialed when a clutch catch is needed.

I agree the original post by rb was foolish, but I also am not naive. Cris carter once said (regarding seehorn, and i'm paraphrasing). "yes, when i see a white guy lined up across from me i automatically think i can beat him. I hate to say that because it opens up things like saying black guys aren't smart enough to play QB"

That was a stupid statement as well. As I've said before, certainly its naive to think there is no difference between the races (on the edges of the bell curve), but if a guy has made an NFL roster and can play, I think its equally foolish for his opponent to think he is inferior.

[Tarlam!]

Jones has shown way more IMO than Ferguson ever did. I think the Fraud stands by himself.

I think Jones may develop into a #2 WR someday and is worthy of a #3. I never thought that much of Fraudie

Wow, this is a surprising position, B. I'd never have guessed you'd post such a thing!

[Tarlam!]

Anybody thinking that skin colour doesn't get you labelled one way or another is blind to reality, especially in the NFL. Despite how unfashionable it may be to point it out, it is obvious and it is biologically correct.

Just ask any cro magnum meeting neadertal man, he'll tell you the same thing. Nothing's changed since then.

[Brandon494]

Anybody thinking that skin colour doesn't get you labelled one way or another is blind to reality, especially in the NFL. Despite how unfashionable it may be to point it out, it is obvious and it is biologically correct.

Just ask any cro magnum meeting neadertal man, he'll tell you the same thing. Nothing's changed since then.

Maybe to fans but I highly doubt "black" DBs see Jordy and think to themselves "this guy is white so I'll just go half ass on this play because hes slow". I guess thats why Wes Welker has been put up such big numbers for the past three seasons.

[RashanGary]

People do this with players all the time. It took 5 years for people to like Tramon Williams. It took until he became one of the best CB's in the game for people to like him, yet a guy like John Kuhn who's a solid fullback, but much less important ot this team is loved for his effort and averageness. Blah.

James Jones shows flashes of dominance with no more inconsistency than Donald Driver. I think Jones has probowl potential. Make him our #1 target and he's a 1200 yard per season, star WR.

Driver has had a shit season and all people remember is the two good plays he had like he's been Mr. Reliable for us. Jones had a down year with a knee injury and to everyone here, he was just being himself. Jones has a superstar play and everyone things he lucked into it and and was lucky he had a slower safety chasing him because there's no way it was anything but luck that he had an 50 yard TD run after the catch.

Jones is a better player than Jordy because he's better at getting open and better with the ball in his hand and just as reliable catching. It's faulty perception and that's it that makes Jones a bad player.

[VermontPackFan]

No one can honestly say that Jones is a bad player, he is far from that. And if given the opportunity (big dollar free agent deal!)to be a no#1 reciever, he may flourish or in my oppinion he will be a disappointment. As I said earlier, TT will not pay him the money he will be offerred in free agency. Why? Inconsistency, questionable work habits, not going all out and finishing plays. He does not fit the mold of the team TT has formed over the past 5 years, he simply is not a Packer person. Right, wrong or indifferent, If I were trying to read predict the future, I just dont see him being in Green Bay next year.

That being said, I like JJ, he is our teammate, he creates matchup problems for opponents and gives our offense a lot of options. Go Pack!

[HarveyWallbangers]

Jones is a better player than Jordy because he's better at getting open and better with the ball in his hand and just as reliable catching. It's faulty perception and that's it that makes Jones a bad player.

Jones isn't a bad player, but dude does not have Pro Bowl potential. And he ain't that much better than Nelson. I think both guys benefit greatly from getting favorable matchups--with Jennings, Driver, and Finley (previously) on the team. (Not to mention an All Pro caliber QB.) They almost always get a safety or a team's third best corner on them. They rarely get doubled. Jones flashes big play ability, but he's too inconsistent (and it ain't changing) and he's slow. Nelson isn't very sudden and he's too inconsistent (but not as inconsistent as Jones). Personally, I think they are a horse a piece. Both are good #3 receivers, and I think both would be okay (not great) as #2 receivers. Neither has #1 or Pro Bowl potential. I'm guessing that Jones goes elsewhere, and unless he gets in a favorable situation (e.g. New England or Indianapolis), he'll disappoint his new team.

[Tarlam!]

Maybe to fans but I highly doubt "black" DBs see Jordy and think to themselves "this guy is white so I'll just go half ass on this play because hes slow". I guess thats why Wes Welker has been put up such big numbers for the past three seasons.

I think you're sticking your head in the sand, mate. Black DBs are homo sapiens, too, and they are just as inclined to form predjudices as Asians, causasians etc etc etc. I'll again point out that this is a biological mechanism. Humans demonstrate primal behaviour frequently, and one such instinct is tribal behaviour. I've spent enough time on psychiast couches to know a lot about primal instincts and how humans tick. Thinking in tribal terms simply is a reaction based on millenia of experience. And by the way, the black DB isn't necessarily consciously saying to himself "this guy is white so I'll just go half ass on this play because he's slow", but there's a heck of a good chance his sub-conscious is saying just that.

[Tony Oday]

awesome...I HOPE DBS are that stupid to think that a white WR cant burn them all the way to the SB!

For every great catch JJ makes he drops one...

[get louder at lambeau]

For every great catch JJ makes he drops one...

Well, if "great catch" = TDs, then you're exactly right. Jones has 5 TDs and 5 drops, according to STATS Inc. Driver has 4 TDs and 7 drops. Jones has more receptions, more yards, more YPG, more YPC, more YAC, more first downs, a longer longest reception...

The only thing that Driver has over Jones statistically this year is less fumbles.

[Tarlam!]

Stop mucking up Skin's thread and RG's arguments with facts g.l.@.l. !!!

[get louder at lambeau]

Stop mucking up Skin's thread and RG's arguments with facts g.l.@.l. !!!

Retail isn't worried about stats-


for me, football is about more than statistics. i could care less if Jones has better statistics.

And skinbasket is a very creative swearer, so he can deflect this easily with some perverted twist of phrase.

I wouldn't worry about either of them being swayed by something as trivial as overwhelming statistical evidence.

[Tony Oday]

Do the stats tell about JJ running incorrect routes or quitting on routes that lead to INTs?

[sharpe1027]

IMO, many people's problem with JJ isn't the pure number of drops, but the head scratching nature of them. Too many of his drops (and fumbles) look like all he needed to do was make any kind of an effort. Is it too much to ask that he extend his arms fully? I might have a heart attack if he ever dove for a ball. Despite his size he consistently looks like he is unwilling to fight for the ball. That includes deciding not to finish his routes because a DB half his size is in his way.

[sharpe1027]

Jordy gets one more year in my book to prove he can hold onto the ball since he's a year younger and doesn't speak about himself in the third person. You can't get rid of both of them in the same year anyway. That'd be too many rooks at once.

IMO, it is a horse-a-piece. Play either of them full-time and they are at least as productive as the old man Driver has been the past two years. It is possible that their drop % would go down with more consistent playing time.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Jones doesn't get credited with a drop on the plays that he completely gives up on the ball. Jones is who we thought he was. He's a good #3. Decent #2. Never going to be elite. Again, I think Jones will go elsewhere and disappoint.

[Smidgeon]

IMO, many people's problem with JJ isn't the pure number of drops, but the head scratching nature of them. Too many of his drops (and fumbles) look like all he needed to do was make any kind of an effort. Is it too much to ask that he extend his arms fully? I might have a heart attack if he ever dove for a ball. Despite his size he consistently looks like he is unwilling to fight for the ball. That includes deciding not to finish his routes because a DB half his size is in his way.

Maybe he's just a really polite guy... :|

[RashanGary]

Jones doesn't get credited with a drop on the plays that he completely gives up on the ball. Jones is who we thought he was. He's a good #3. Decent #2. Never going to be elite. Again, I think Jones will go elsewhere and disappoint.

I hope we keep him and I think he's better than you give him credit. He's a 1,000 yd/season talent. Low end number 1, top tier #2. Somewhere between the 20th and 40th best WR in the game.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I completely agree that JJ could/should be more consistent, but for every JJ bashing thread there should be one for Nelson and one for Driver. I honestly believe Driver lost us 1-2 games with all his drops this year. Remember the redskins game when he dropped that 30-40 yard pass that was right on point on the 10 yard line? We got no points that drive and lost later in OT. Could that catch have been the difference? Or how about the drop against the Pats on the 10 yard line. Maybe we score 7 instead of 3 there? Should I remind everyone of Drivers fumble on the second drive against the Cards in the PLAYOFFS last year. That might have been the difference in that game as well. And now we are talking playoffs when making plays matters the most. I wouldn’t even hesitant if I had to choose between Driver and Jones at this point in their careers.

Or how about Nelsons back to back fumbles against the Lions? He surely did his best to try and lose us that game. And I'm sure everyone remembers his fumble in the redzone this past week. So everyone gives Nelson a pass on his fumbles b/c we won those games and Jones doesn't b/c when he fumbles we lose those games? I don’t get it. And this past week JJ had two drops. One he made up for on the very next play on 3rd and 10. The other people underestimate the difficulty in the catch. They showed the replay on TV in slow motion and I believe the defenders arm shielded him from seeing the ball until the last second. Not making excuses for him b/c I was yelling at the TV just like everyone else.

Now if we want to switch from negative plays and talk about plays made by JJ, Nelson, and Driver this year I’m sure we will agree that JJ has made more and his yards and TDs prove that.

JJ is a solid #2 next to Jennings. When Finely comes back that will be an awesome set of Wrs to throw to. We are an offensive line anyway from having a completely explosive offensive.

[HarveyWallbangers]

It's not just the drops with Jones. It's all of the plays where he gives up on a throw or runs a bad route or doesn't come back to the ball and lets the defender intercept the ball or knock it down. It's the flashes of brilliance mixed in with the drops, the fumbles, the plays that he half asses or stops his route, the wrong routes. Those don't show up in stats. Dude thinks he's better than he is. He could actually be pretty good if he was more consistent, but after four years in the NFL I've given up on him becoming consistent. Plus, the dude is put in a better situation than any receiver on the team. He gets a lot of plays in 3 & 4 wide sets matched up one-on-one against a safety or third corner. Jennings gets more attention. Driver gets the slot--which is a tough place to make a living. Nelson doesn't get in on as many 3 wide sets. He either gets in on 4 & 5 wide sets or on run plays where he's the only receiver (or one of two receivers) because of his blocking.

[Bossman641]

Jones does get a bit of a bad rap. It seems like his bad plays stick in people's minds much more than others, mine included. Not sure why exactly, maybe because they do see flashes from him and expect more?

I think he's a very good 3 WR and would be a decent 2. I don't really trust his hands. Even on a lot of his catches he bobbles the ball.

And there is no comparison between Jones and Fergy. Jones has made 10x the plays.

[sharpe1027]

I think it is only natural to be pissed when someone looks like they could have made a play but didn't because the effort was lacking. Even with this truly annoying quality, I don't disagree that JJ may be the better WR. That doesn't mean I can't still be pissed at him.

[Smidgeon]

Jones does get a bit of a bad rap. It seems like his bad plays stick in people's minds much more than others, mine included. Not sure why exactly, maybe because they do see flashes from him and expect more?

I think he's a very good 3 WR and would be a decent 2. I don't really trust his hands. Even on a lot of his catches he bobbles the ball.

And there is no comparison between Jones and Fergy. Jones has made 10x the plays.

I think this is the key. Jones has plays and games that flash complete brilliance and #1 talent. Then he goes and does something inexcusable like quitting on a route, dropping an easy ball, or not fighting for a catch, thus proving he isn't a #1 talent. Whereas Jordy hasn't shown the same brilliance, people don't expect as much and are more okay if it doesn't show up. And Driver's been getting a pass because he's been so good for so long.

[Brandon494]

I think you're sticking your head in the sand, mate. Black DBs are homo sapiens, too, and they are just as inclined to form predjudices as Asians, causasians etc etc etc. I'll again point out that this is a biological mechanism. Humans demonstrate primal behaviour frequently, and one such instinct is tribal behaviour. I've spent enough time on psychiast couches to know a lot about primal instincts and how humans tick. Thinking in tribal terms simply is a reaction based on millenia of experience. And by the way, the black DB isn't necessarily consciously saying to himself "this guy is white so I'll just go half ass on this play because he's slow", but there's a heck of a good chance his sub-conscious is saying just that.

No offense but your not black nor a NFL player. This is more than a game to these players, its their job. They can't afford to take a play off based on their opponents skin color. These guys watch game film all week long so they know exactly what they are in for. Now what you just wrote might be true in the real world but when it comes to professional sports you can throw all that out the window.

[Brandon494]

I hope we keep him and I think he's better than you give him credit. He's a 1,000 yd/season talent. Low end number 1, top tier #2. Somewhere between the 20th and 40th best WR in the game.

No way is he anywhere near #1 WR, hes a decent #2 at best. Hes in a pass heavy offense and most of the time has the opponents 3rd or 4th CB covering him. I say let him leave at the end of the season and let Jordy step into the #3 role. With Finley coming back next year we'll just line him up in WR sets anyway. I also wouldnt mind us drafting a speed WR in the middle rounds of the draft who also has return ability.

[Smidgeon]

No way is he anywhere near #1 WR, hes a decent #2 at best. Hes in a pass heavy offense and most of the time has the opponents 3rd or 4th CB covering him. I say let him leave at the end of the season and let Jordy step into the #3 role. With Finley coming back next year we'll just line him up in WR sets anyway. I also wouldnt mind up drafting a speed WR in the middle rounds of the draft who also has return ability.

Didn't TT try that with a 4th round WR a couple years back? Was it Cory Rodgers or something like that? Became the highest drafted player that year to not make his team...

[Joemailman]

No way is he anywhere near #1 WR, hes a decent #2 at best. Hes in a pass heavy offense and most of the time has the opponents 3rd or 4th CB covering him. I say let him leave at the end of the season and let Jordy step into the #3 role. With Finley coming back next year we'll just line him up in WR sets anyway. I also wouldnt mind up drafting a speed WR in the middle rounds of the draft who also has return ability.

I wanted Jacoby Ford last year. Maybe TT looks for that kind of guy this year.

[Brandon494]

Didn't TT try that with a 4th round WR a couple years back? Was it Cory Rodgers or something like that? Became the highest drafted player that year to not make his team...

Yea but Cory Rodgers wasnt a speed guy, I believe he ran like a low 4.5 40 time but showed good ability on kick returns. Too bad he couldnt hold on to the damn ball once he got into the NFL.

[Bretsky]

Jones isn't a bad player, but dude does not have Pro Bowl potential. And he ain't that much better than Nelson. I think both guys benefit greatly from getting favorable matchups--with Jennings, Driver, and Finley (previously) on the team. (Not to mention an All Pro caliber QB.) They almost always get a safety or a team's third best corner on them. They rarely get doubled. Jones flashes big play ability, but he's too inconsistent (and it ain't changing) and he's slow. Nelson isn't very sudden and he's too inconsistent (but not as inconsistent as Jones). Personally, I think they are a horse a piece. Both are good #3 receivers, and I think both would be okay (not great) as #2 receivers. Neither has #1 or Pro Bowl potential. I'm guessing that Jones goes elsewhere, and unless he gets in a favorable situation (e.g. New England or Indianapolis), he'll disappoint his new team.

ditto

[MadtownPacker]

Seems like what the argument comes down to is JJ a great, good or ok #2 WR. He is not a true #1. He is a good #2 when focused. He is a great #3 but wont be willing to settle for that cash. He can and does bring more to the table then JN so that is why I expect more from him. Plus he is from Cali so I want him to stick. He is also a real cool guy the one time I talked with him.

In other words he is gone regardless unless he has a sick playoffs like Fitzgerald did in '08. TT would have to show him some love. No not that kind.

[Pugger]

I was very disappointed in Jones today - he dropped two, one being a potential game-clincher. Instead, Jones clenched his sphincter.

When his contract comes up, let him go.

I'm still pissed at him for fumbling in that first Bear game in week 3!! If Mr. Butterfingers had carried the damn ball in his outside arm we win that freaking game. :smack: Didn't he fumble against the bares last season too?? :-[

[mraynrand]

If TT really liked Jones, wouldn't he have resigned him already? That's TT's pattern, isn't it?

Regarding Jones' play, I think those turtleneck shirts he's wearing are cutting off the blood supply to his brain. Maybe with a normal shirt and circulation, he might think more clearly and run better routes, catch more balls, and hang on the damn rock when the game is on the line.

[mraynrand]

In other words he is gone regardless unless he has a sick playoffs like Fitzgerald did in '08.

really going out on a limb there, aren'tcha?

[SkinBasket]

James Jones is a playmaker

Too bad he makes just as many plays for the other team. But I guess if that's what makes a "playmaker" in your book, then he's a PLAYMAKER!!!

[Bretsky]

I'm still pissed at him for fumbling in that first Bear game in week 3!! If Mr. Butterfingers had carried the damn ball in his outside arm we win that freaking game. :smack: Didn't he fumble against the bares last season too?? :-[

a few years ago at the PR game in Lambeau when they knocked us off Jones fumbled twice and we lost both

[MichiganPackerFan]

James Jones right now is half the player he could be. He seems to be very good at getting the right position for the QB to get him the ball, but then doesn't have the soft hands that could make him REALLY good. I don't know if it's his focus, or what, but he is also insecure with the ball from time to time.

Jordy had a lot of yards against NYG, but don't forget that 80 came on one play. On another play he was careless with the ball and allowed NY back into the game.

I think both are good number 3's, but at this point neither is ready to jump up to a 1 or 2. Both need to spend the offseason seriously training to see what they can become.

[pbmax]

People do this with players all the time. It took 5 years for people to like Tramon Williams. It took until he became one of the best CB's in the game for people to like him, yet a guy like John Kuhn who's a solid fullback, but much less important ot this team is loved for his effort and averageness. Blah.

James Jones shows flashes of dominance with no more inconsistency than Donald Driver. I think Jones has probowl potential. Make him our #1 target and he's a 1200 yard per season, star WR.

Driver has had a shit season and all people remember is the two good plays he had like he's been Mr. Reliable for us. Jones had a down year with a knee injury and to everyone here, he was just being himself. Jones has a superstar play and everyone things he lucked into it and and was lucky he had a slower safety chasing him because there's no way it was anything but luck that he had an 50 yard TD run after the catch.

Jones is a better player than Jordy because he's better at getting open and better with the ball in his hand and just as reliable catching. It's faulty perception and that's it that makes Jones a bad player.

Then explain George Koonce, the first KOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON(CE) chant I ever heard. They are chanting it because he is limited and its exciting to see him do something noteworthy. And its fun to chant that name.

Try making a single syllable, loud and carrying chant out of Tramon Williams. He should find some buddies to start a Moon nickname movement on Twitter. That chant would work.

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!

[sharpe1027]

Then explain George Koonce, the first KOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON(CE) chant I ever heard. They are chanting it because he is limited and its exciting to see him do something noteworthy. And its fun to chant that name.

Try making a single syllable, loud and carrying chant out of Tramon Williams. He should find some buddies to start a Moon nickname movement on Twitter. That chant would work.

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!

Come on. If Kuhn's name was Krzyzewski, I'm sure the fans would be shouting "Kryyyyyyyzzzzeeeeewwwwskkiiiiiii." Try it, it really rolls of the tongue.

[Tony Oday]

JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNN NNNNNNESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!

Not that tough ;) But third person talking, dropped balls when they could go for six and wrong routes that DO go for six (insert Bud Kilmer "FOR WHICH TEAM!") keep the fans from doing that.

[The Weasel]

I don't hate James Jones, but if we release him, I won't miss him.

[Tarlam!]

No offense but your not black nor a NFL player. This is more than a game to these players, its their job. They can't afford to take a play off based on their opponents skin color. These guys watch game film all week long so they know exactly what they are in for. Now what you just wrote might be true in the real world but when it comes to professional sports you can throw all that out the window.

None taken and you're right, I'm not black and only in my dreams am I the greatest TE to ever have not played the game! I accept your arguments in general and I don't maintain black DBs take plays off. I do maintain they unconsciously assess situations based on prejudices. As we all do. Those assessments have an impact on what consciously occurs. Ask any psycho-therapist. No amount of film study will change that. Ask any pscho-therapist.

The fact is, if they've been superior to white WR's all their lives, which most likely they have, they have a very strong prejudice that guides them.

[vince]

I don't hate James Jones, but if we release him, I won't miss him.This is how I feel too (although that rotating "G" is driving me nuts). It'll take a high draft pick to replace him, which I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Thompson use.

[Fritz]

Maybe Tramon can just change his name to "Tramoon."

[The Weasel]

This is how I feel too (although that rotating "G" is driving me nuts). It'll take a high draft pick to replace him, which I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Thompson use.

Stopped the G for you. http://smiliesftw.com/x/wavey.gif

That's what I would like to see as well.

[get louder at lambeau]

Stopped the G for you. http://smiliesftw.com/x/wavey.gif

That's what I would like to see as well.

Vince is a bully like his namesake. Putting a wingtip in the ass of all that is irritating in the world.

[SkinBasket]

James Jones should be executed.

[The Weasel]

Vince is a bully like his namesake. Putting a wingtip in the ass of all that is irritating in the world.

So you're saying make the G spin again? http://smiliesftw.com/x/eek5oopsie__________.gif

[get louder at lambeau]

Only if you want him to grab you by the facemask and drag you off the field.

[pbmax]

James Jones should be executed.

How do you know how he treats his dogs?

[Joemailman]

I thought the Spinning G was cool. :pack::wow::cow::wave:

[MJZiggy]

So you're saying make the G spin again? http://smiliesftw.com/x/eek5oopsie__________.gif

Ya know, stopping the G from spinning is just a matter of hitting the escape key...I'm just saying.

[pbmax]

Ya know, stopping the G from spinning is just a matter of hitting the escape key...I'm just saying.

How the hell did I not know that?

[vince]

Ya know, stopping the G from spinning is just a matter of hitting the escape key...I'm just saying.
Thanks Zig! Spin away by all means.

[get louder at lambeau]

So you're saying make the G spin again? http://smiliesftw.com/x/eek5oopsie__________.gif


Thanks Zig! Spin away by all means.

Hop to it, maggot!!

[HarveyWallbangers]

Targets & Receptions

Jennings
115 targets
72 receptions
62.6%

Jones
86 targets
49 receptions
56.9%

Driver
77 targets
46 receptions
59.7%

Nelson
62 targets
43 receptions
69.4%

[Tarlam!]

James Jones should be executed.

There's my sensitive pal, Skinbasket, sitting on the fence again. No amount of coaching will allow him to really come out and say what he really thinks.

[bobblehead]

He is sensitive. He MEANT to say James Jones should execute better.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Driver fumbled and Jennings dropped another bomb. All the packers Wrs are inconsistent.

[sharpe1027]

Driver fumbled and Jennings dropped another bomb. All the packers Wrs are inconsistent.

It seems like every week I see the other team's WRs drop easy balls. I would be interested to see how our WRs rank in the NFL. Anyone know where to find this info?

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Targets & Receptions

Jennings
115 targets
72 receptions
62.6%

Jones
86 targets
49 receptions
56.9%

Driver
77 targets
46 receptions
59.7%

Nelson
62 targets
43 receptions
69.4%

I read an article earlier this season saying that even when the ball is thrown away that they have to credit a wr as the target. I don't take a lot away from this particular stat.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I read an article earlier this season saying that even when the ball is thrown away that they have to credit a wr as the target. I don't take a lot away from this particular stat.

Where did you read that? I doubt that's the case. Even so, unless you think one WR is the target of more throwaway balls, then it probably evens out. Also, how often is a ball really thrown away? I actually think this is a great indicator, but you have to combine it with other stats (yards/completion, YAC, % of balls converted for first downs) and common sense (Jennings will get more attention from other teams than the other WRs, so he's going to get covered by the other team's best corner or doubled more often).

[Smidgeon]

Where did you read that? I doubt that's the case. Even so, unless you think one WR is the target of more throwaway balls, then it probably evens out. Also, how often is a ball really thrown away? I actually think this is a great indicator, but you have to combine it with other stats (yards/completion, YAC, % of balls converted for first downs) and common sense (Jennings will get more attention from other teams than the other WRs, so he's going to get covered by the other team's best corner or doubled more often).

I think I saw the NFC North ESPN blogger Kevin Seifert mention that in one of his stat rundowns.

[pbmax]

I think I saw the NFC North ESPN blogger Kevin Seifert mention that in one of his stat rundowns.

Yes, I think that is correct. If I remember, unless its intentional grounding, closest eligible receiver gets the target label even if it was heaved out of the end zone.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I also remember Jennings saying something similar earlier in the year. They asked him why his catches were down so much even though he had been targeted just as much as Finley and Driver (I think they all were target 33 or 34 times each at that time). He responded by saying that even though he has been "targeted" doesn't mean he had a chance to catch the ball. He even mentioned that a hail mary and a ball throw out of bounds counts as a target, but if the ball is not catchable is it really a target. The article was on packersnews months ago.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Don't buy it. Just don't see balls being thrown away often enough to make the stat irrelevant. I also can't see one guy having an abnormal amount of throwaways being charged as targets over others. They'd even out over the course of a season.

[Patler]

Don't buy it. Just don't see balls being thrown away often enough to make the stat irrelevant. I also can't see one guy having an abnormal amount of throwaways being charged as targets over others. They'd even out over the course of a season.

I don't necessarily believe the throw aways do even out. Driver or Nelson who work the middle more often will be less often the "target" of a throwaway than Jennings who works deep, or Jones who seems to show up along the sideline more often.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Still don't buy it. Do you have a link? It doesn't make sense that they'd give a target to a receiver on every pass (throwaways and spikes included). Now, I realize that some may be judgement calls on whether it's a throwaway or target, but I just can't see it. For what it's worth, target % excludes passes thrown away, not intended for a particular receiver, and spikes. Not sure why targets would be an different.

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2010/08/glossary.html


Target Percentage (Tgt%) – A receiver’s proportion of his team’s pass attempts targeted to him. Tgt% excludes passes thrown away, passes not intended for any particular receiver, and spikes.

Catch Rate (CR) – The proportion of passes targeted to a receiver that are caught.

Targets (Tgts) – The number of pass attempts directed at a particular receiver.

I also think these numbers match up with what I've seen on the season. There may be reasons for the percentages (e.g. Jennings is doubled, Driver was nicked up, etc.), but it seems like Jones was targeted a lot this season. He made big plays, but he had some negative plays too. He had drops. He had plays where he gave up on passes. He had plays where he wasn't on the same page as Rodgers. Of course, he made a lot of plays too, and overall had a solid year for a #3 receiver. He still drives me nuts with his inconsistency, and at this point I think he is what he is (decent #2, good #3 receiver).

[Patler]

Still don't buy it. Do you have a link? It doesn't make sense that they'd give a target to a receiver on every pass (throwaways and spikes included). Now, I realize that some may be judgement calls on whether it's a throwaway or target, but I just can't see it. For what it's worth, target % excludes passes thrown away, not intended for a particular receiver, and spikes. Not sure why targets would be an different.

Earlier this year in an article about Jennings, when his #s were way down, including his percentages caught, they reviewed all of his targeted pass incompletions and identified a bunch as throw-aways. It was in either the GBPG or the MJS after about the 4th or 5th game, or so.

[SkinBasket]

Turns out James Jones is still a fucking retard.

[Fritz]

How does one become "unretarded" anyway? Dimmy Dones needs some help.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

He played bad today. No excuse for that drop.......but we need him esp. with Driver getting banged up at the end.

[gbgary]

He played bad today. No excuse for that drop.......but we need him esp. with Driver getting banged up at the end.

DD got banged up? missed this. what happened?

[MJZiggy]

DD got banged up? missed this. what happened?

He was on the bench in pain after his last catch. Don't know what the matter was.

[pbmax]

Still don't buy it. Do you have a link? It doesn't make sense that they'd give a target to a receiver on every pass (throwaways and spikes included). Now, I realize that some may be judgement calls on whether it's a throwaway or target, but I just can't see it. For what it's worth, target % excludes passes thrown away, not intended for a particular receiver, and spikes. Not sure why targets would be an different.

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2010/08/glossary.html



I also think these numbers match up with what I've seen on the season. There may be reasons for the percentages (e.g. Jennings is doubled, Driver was nicked up, etc.), but it seems like Jones was targeted a lot this season. He made big plays, but he had some negative plays too. He had drops. He had plays where he gave up on passes. He had plays where he wasn't on the same page as Rodgers. Of course, he made a lot of plays too, and overall had a solid year for a #3 receiver. He still drives me nuts with his inconsistency, and at this point I think he is what he is (decent #2, good #3 receiver).

There are multiple sources of numbers. The NFL's official numbers are from STATS Inc., but they are far from alone and they don't make it all public. So when GBPG or JSO/McGinn give you a number, its hard to know the source unless you have seen those numbers elsewhere. So STATs might give targets to every pass, other sites might not. NFLGSIS is the official record for the media.

[Kiwon]

Oh man, how did he miss that catch?!

[SkinBasket]

Oh man, how did he miss that catch?!

I think I've covered that several times in this thread...

[PA Pack Fan]

James Jones is the worst clutch receiver ever. I would never ever sign him to an extension. What a douche.

[MadtownPacker]

Turns out James Jones is still a fucking retard.
I aint gonna lie, when I read this post right after the game I fucking laughed. The timing was pretty good.

[GrnBay007]

Yep, he's had some not so good games. But.........none of the Packers receivers have been completely consistent this season. I still trust Driver the most :) That smile....how can you resist? lol

It's the playoffs! Every completed catch means the world and every dropped pass means the world. If he hadn't dropped that pass the Packers may have sealed the deal earlier. If he hadn't made the catch for a TD the Packers may have lost. Lets try to look at the positive rather than the negative please. I still have high hopes for JJ !! :)

[HarveyWallbangers]

I heard somebody say that if he doesn't make the TD catch, we lose 16-14. Well, not really. That was a first down play, so there would have been a couple more chances to get a TD. Plus, we very likely get at least 3 points out of that drive.

[Freak Out]

Howz the boy 007?

[SnakeLH2006]

Man...I used to worship JJ over Jordy....but dear god how many times can this guy miss a dead on pass and FAIL!!! I used to tear Partial up over JJ's skills, but really, if you can't catch a simple ball...FU! JJ goes on my shit list. Don't resign a guy who makes deece plays/has more talent than Jordy.....if they CAN'T EVER catch a perfect pass. One mistake is something, but really, this guy is the most un-clutch WR I've EVER seen. Don't resign this turd.

[Patler]

I heard somebody say that if he doesn't make the TD catch, we lose 16-14. Well, not really. That was a first down play, so there would have been a couple more chances to get a TD. Plus, we very likely get at least 3 points out of that drive.

Well, if you are going to play the "coulda", "woulda", "shoulda" game to minimize the significance of his TD catch, you have to for his drop, too, and minimize the significance of it. It's not guaranteed that he would have scored even if he did catch it. He isn't the fastest player on the field. His drop also didn't have to result in 0 points. It came on first down too, but with 31 seconds left MM essentially packed it in for the half. He coulda/shoulda gone aggressively for the yards for a FG attempt, or taken another attempt deep for a TD. Instead, MM gave up.

If Jones TD is mnimized by what "coulda" happened, his drop is minimized by what "shoulda" happened after it.

[Patler]

Now we know the reason! :lol:

From MM's press conference:


James has been playing for quite some time with a very painful thumb injury, something that doesn’t really show up on the medical reports as far as what’s communicated. But it’s on our medical report. You don’t like to put those things out for competitive reasons. But it’s something that he’s been dealing with for a number of weeks.

I wonder if MM has opened himself up to scrutiny from the league on his injury reports?

[mraynrand]

Now we know the reason! :lol:

From MM's press conference:



I wonder if MM has opened himself up to scrutiny from the league on his injury reports?


No, because it seems obvious that it's not affecting their decision on playing him. He's not 'probable' or 'questionable' - he's playing for sure. They just don't want defenders to know they should bang on the guy's hand when they get the chance. Also, players all have different psyches - Maybe Stubby is playing a bit of a mental game here to make sure he doesn't lose Jones. At the same time, he can't give him leeway enough to be making excuses before he even drops a pass...

[Patler]

No, because it seems obvious that it's not affecting their decision on playing him. He's not 'probable' or 'questionable' - he's playing for sure. They just don't want defenders to know they should bang on the guy's hand when they get the chance. Also, players all have different psyches - Maybe Stubby is playing a bit of a mental game here to make sure he doesn't lose Jones. At the same time, he can't give him leeway enough to be making excuses before he even drops a pass...

Do you know this from the rules on injury reporting, or are you guessing? Weren't the Jets fined under similar circumstances with regard to Favre, for not disclosing an injury because they expected he would play?

To Jones credit, when he was asked about it, he said his thumb had absolutely nothing to do with the drop, that it was just a bad play by him.

[Patler]

Just looked it up. The Jets were fined $125,000. They said this:


Tannenbaum said the Jets didn't list Favre on the report because the injury wasn't severe enough to require daily treatment and there was never any doubt the quarterback would play.

[mraynrand]

Do you know this from the rules on injury reporting, or are you guessing? Weren't the Jets fined under similar circumstances with regard to Favre, for not disclosing an injury because they expected he would play?

To Jones credit, when he was asked about it, he said his thumb had absolutely nothing to do with the drop, that it was just a bad play by him.

I wasn't guessing really, I was just explaining what I think their logic was. Based on the rules, I would expect that they should report him as "probable, thumb." Knowing the status of Jones' thumb is critical for accurate gambling, which is why the injury report was mandated in the first place. Same for reporting practice participation in 2004.

I found this interesting article doing a search (ahman green is featured):
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2007-11-22-injury-report-cover_N.htm


edit: so, I guess Stubby should anticipate a fine from the NFL, except that the NFL doesn't fine all that often (unless one of their execs loses a big bet)

[Patler]

I wasn't guessing really, I was just explaining what I think their logic was. Based on the rules, I would expect that they should report him as "probable, thumb." Knowing the status of Jones' thumb is critical for accurate gambling, which is why the injury report was mandated in the first place. Same for reporting practice participation in 2004.

I found this interesting article doing a search (ahman green is featured):
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2007-11-22-injury-report-cover_N.htm


edit: so, I guess Stubby should anticipate a fine from the NFL, except that the NFL doesn't fine all that often (unless one of their execs loses a big bet)

MM made it pretty clear why they didn't report it, saying it was for "competitive reasons". If that's true, that there was a competitive impact, it would seem to be exactly the type of injury the NFL would want on the report.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Well, if you are going to play the "coulda", "woulda", "shoulda" game to minimize the significance of his TD catch, you have to for his drop, too, and minimize the significance of it. It's not guaranteed that he would have scored even if he did catch it. He isn't the fastest player on the field. His drop also didn't have to result in 0 points. It came on first down too, but with 31 seconds left MM essentially packed it in for the half. He coulda/shoulda gone aggressively for the yards for a FG attempt, or taken another attempt deep for a TD. Instead, MM gave up.

If Jones TD is mnimized by what "coulda" happened, his drop is minimized by what "shoulda" happened after it.

It's a matter of opinion. My opinion is that there's no doubt he scores if he doesn't drop it. He may not be fast, but he's apparently faster than Samual--who he got behind and was outrunning.

The chances of us getting a FG with 31 seconds left at our own 34 into a stiff wind is about 1 in 20--even if McCarthy hadn't sat on the ball. The chances of us getting a FG sitting inside of the Eagles 10 is about 19 in 20.

[Patler]

It's a matter of opinion. My opinion is that there's no doubt he scores if he doesn't drop it. He may not be fast, but he's apparently faster than Samual--who he got behind and was outrunning.

The chances of us getting a FG with 31 seconds left at our own 34 into a stiff wind is about 1 in 20--even if McCarthy hadn't sat on the ball. The chances of us getting a FG sitting inside of the Eagles 10 is about 19 in 20. Sorry.

Argument, what argument? I didn't know we had "winners" and "losers" on this board. I thought it was simply people expressing their opinions.

Assuming that anything is certain or near certain to happen in an athletic competition is not well-founded in my opinion. Had Jones not caught the TD pass, Rodgers might have thrown an interception or the Packers might have lost a fumble. Both have happened to them this year when many expected them to get at least 3 points out of a drive. With the way the Packers were mishandling the ball in that game (4 fumbles, at least 2 drops, maybe as many as 4 drops) a fumble or a deflected interception would not have been surprising. Rodgers could have been sacked, and all of a sudden that "gimme" fieldgoal becomes much more of a challenge. Akers missed with the line of scrimmage being the 16, didn't he?. I think that was at the same end of the field, wasn't it? The Packers were at the 9, a sack or two could have put them at least that far out, or farther.

The chances were "1 in 20" of getting a fieldgoal with 31 seconds left after the Jones drop? Based on what data? What were the chances of getting a TD with 37 second left when Jones dropped the pass? Teams have driven a lot farther in 31 seconds, and GB still had a timeout, I believe.

For some fans, it seems that whatever positive thing Jones does is diminished, and his failures are magnified.
My point is simple, the drop was bad; but, the TD catch was a nice play by Jones on a semi-broken play and a very low throw. The TD catch was a very crucial play, putting them up by two scores.

[mraynrand]

MM made it pretty clear why they didn't report it, saying it was for "competitive reasons". If that's true, that there was a competitive impact, it would seem to be exactly the type of injury the NFL would want on the report.


Well, all injuries can affect competition and the NFL wants all injuries reported. But the NFL hardly cares or fines teams. That last line there is based on fact, not opinion. It's interesting that they chose to fine the Jets over the Favre 'injury;' interesting because of the appearance of lies, deceit and chicanery. I guess if the NFL thinks the Jones situation rises to that level, they will fine the Packers.

[mraynrand]

The chances were "1 in 20" of getting a fieldgoal with 31 seconds left after the Jones drop? Based on what data?


I thought it was simply people expressing their opinions.

you seem to have answered your own question.

[Patler]

Well, all injuries can affect competition and the NFL wants all injuries reported. But the NFL hardly cares or fines teams. That last line there is based on fact, not opinion. It's interesting that they chose to fine the Jets over the Favre 'injury;' interesting because of the appearance of lies, deceit and chicanery. I guess if the NFL thinks the Jones situation rises to that level, they will fine the Packers.

Agreed. I'm just concerned think it might have been a mistake for MM to mention it, even if he was trying to "protect" Jones in a way by giving the media an excuse for the drops. He implies that the injury might affect Jones' ability to catch, and admits not disclosing it for competitive reasons. Seems like a bit of a red flag, almost begging the NFL to look into it.

It is interesting to read what the coaches say about injury reporting. Belichek lists Brady almost every week, every year. Cowher admits to having called ankle injuries as knee injuries to protect the player while still giving accurate information about the players availability. Apparently he tried to stay with the same body extremity at least! :lol:

As with a lot of things from the league office, it is a bit of a mystery knowing what their reasoning is in handling these things.

[Patler]

you seem to have answered your own question.

I don't look at that as opinion, its data and either accurate or inaccurate.

[mraynrand]

I don't look at that as opinion, its data and either accurate or inaccurate.


I'll let harvy speak for himself on this one. But as for me, if I had used "1/20" off the cuff, it would be a guesstimate opinion. I'll let you dig up the stats on the frequency of successful FG attempts for teams with 37 seconds left in the first half, with one timeout, maybe 50 some odd yards to go, going into the wind and cold of a Divisional playoff game! :lol:

[Patler]

I'll let harvy speak for himself on this one. But as for me, if I had used "1/20" off the cuff, it would be a guesstimate opinion. I'll let you dig up the stats on the frequency of successful FG attempts for teams with 37 seconds left in the first half, with one timeout, maybe 50 some odd yards to go, going into the wind and cold of a Divisional playoff game! :lol:

Now if this was baseball, we could probably find it in an instant! :lol:

It never ceases to amaze me, the depth of statistical detail you can find in baseball. Things like :"Batting average of righthanded firstbaseman batting against lefthanded former Cy Young Award winners, on a 3-2 count in the 4th inning with runners on 1st and 3rd and the score tied in a night game played in April on a grass field in a domed stadium with the roof open ." :lol:

[mraynrand]

Now if this was baseball, we could probably find it in an instant! :lol:

It never ceases to amaze me, the depth of statistical detail you can find in baseball. Things like :"Batting average of righthanded firstbaseman batting against lefthanded former Cy Young Award winners, on a 3-2 count in the 4th inning with runners on 1st and 3rd and the score tied in a night game played in April on a grass field in a domed stadium with the roof open ." :lol:


Like those MNF stats that you never heard of before and never really think of again! :smile:

But you're right about baseball - better bring your stats to a discussion and bring 'em strong or go home. That's why football is so awesome - you can be a complete blowhard, and it's hard to get called on it!


P.S. The stats/facts stuff is a reason it's too bad Bigguns is gone - that guy knew his stuff - or at least he'd research it before posting

[mraynrand]

As with a lot of things from the league office, it is a bit of a mystery knowing what their reasoning is in handling these things.

This one seems pretty straightforward - if the NFL gets shown up in the press, they will nail you. I'm betting (see, can't help but gamble!) that no one gives a rat's ass about Jones' thumb except Packerrats and his grandma.

[Patler]

Like those MNF stats that you never heard of before and never really think of again! :smile:

But you're right about baseball - better bring your stats to a discussion and bring 'em strong or go home. That's why football is so awesome - you can be a complete blowhard, and it's hard to get called on it!


P.S. The stats/facts stuff is a reason it's too bad Bigguns is gone - that guy knew his stuff - or at least he'd research it before posting

Ya, I miss Bigguns for that, too. There is not much of a Brewer thread now.

Speaking of statistical detail, the one about Starks breaking the rookie rushing record in a playoff game for the Packers kind of ignores what Grant did. In his first season, Grant rushed for 201 yards against Seattle in the playoffs, but was a "first year player" not a "rookie" because he had been on the Giants practice squad and IR. He was never on a 53 man roster before that year, but wasn't a "rookie" for statistical purposes. If he had played arena football instead of being on their PS, I think he would have been considered a "rookie".

I guess it makes some sense, but it is also quibbling over details.

[Patler]

This one seems pretty straightforward - if the NFL gets shown up in the press, they will nail you. I'm betting (see, can't help but gamble!) that no one gives a rat's ass about Jones' thumb except Packerrats and his grandma.

What if it was Gregg Jennings' thumb?

[mraynrand]

Ya, I miss Bigguns for that, too. There is not much of a Brewer thread now.

Speaking of statistical detail, the one about Starks breaking the rookie rushing record in a playoff game for the Packers kind of ignores what Grant did. In his first season, Grant rushed for 201 yards against Seattle in the playoffs, but was a "first year player" not a "rookie" because he had been on the Giants practice squad and IR. He was never on a 53 man roster before that year, but wasn't a "rookie" for statistical purposes. If he had played arena football instead of being on their PS, I think he would have been considered a "rookie".

I guess it makes some sense, but it is also quibbling over details.


Grant was like a redshirt freshman. How does the NCAA handle that re: stats and records? (I don't know)

[sharpe1027]

For some fans, it seems that whatever positive thing Jones does is diminished, and his failures are magnified.
My point is simple, the drop was bad; but, the TD catch was a nice play by Jones on a semi-broken play and a very low throw. The TD catch was a very crucial play, putting them up by two scores.

And for some fans it is the opposite... ;)

I said it once before, it is not so much the end result as the manner in which JJ messes up. When is the last time he laid out for a ball? He just looks like he doesn't make much effort. It doesn't mean he isn't still better than Jordy, but it sure is frustrating to watch.

[Patler]

I said it once before, it is not so much the end result as the manner in which JJ messes up. When is the last time he laid out for a ball? He just looks like he doesn't make much effort. It doesn't mean he isn't still better than Jordy, but it sure is frustrating to watch.

I have said it before, too, that the only one who you don't have to worry about effort from is Driver. That guy has no respect for is skinny little body! :)

I don't dispute the concern about Jones' effort at times.

Nelson's effort on the one long throw to him on Sunday was very weak. He is the biggest receiver the Packers have, and rather than fight above and through the defender to get at the ball, he sort of waived an arm at it and looked pleadingly at the official.

Jennings seems to run hot and cold. One time he fights hard for the ball, and another it seems like, "Oh well..., I'll catch the next one."

[MichiganPackerFan]

...Jennings seems to run hot and cold. One time he fights hard for the ball, and another it seems like, "Oh well..., I'll catch the next one."

Followed by the obligatory complaint to the officials.

[Patler]

For some fans, it seems that whatever positive thing Jones does is diminished, and his failures are magnified.
My point is simple, the drop was bad; but, the TD catch was a nice play by Jones on a semi-broken play and a very low throw. The TD catch was a very crucial play, putting them up by two scores.


And for some fans it is the opposite... ;)


I disagree, at least on my own behalf. I am more than willing to recognize how bad the drop was. I'm not trying to diminish how poorly he performed on that play. It was about as perfect as a pass can be, and it came to him from a clear, unobstructed window through the defense. On the other hand, I think he deserves credit for making a good play on the TD. That was not an easy catch. He got open, came back and dropped down with his elbows together so his arms could shield the ball from the ground and prevent the ball from squirting through. It would have been easy to reach with his hands and trap it against the ground. But he came back nicely and gave himself vertical space to make the play above the turf. That should not be treated as a "no big deal" catch anymore than the drop should be ignored.

That's what makes Jones so frustrating. He does make plays, and seems to have a knack for getting open on go routes along the sideline. But he fails too often on routine stuff. He fumbles too often. His good can be quite good, his bad can be quite bad. In the mean time, he is still a more productive #3 than the others the Packers have had in the recent past, at least.

I doubt that he will be back next year. Hopefully, there will be a new face who comes on like Jennings did. Driver gets to be an "iffy" player as he gets older, Nelson doesn't seem to have a super high ceiling either. Swain is a jouneyman #4/#5 and not much more. There is a need there to find more talent.

[sharpe1027]

Jones seems to only run cold as far as effort (although productivity is still often hot). Even the touchdown catch you were referring to earlier as being an example of a good catch by JJ was a catch that should have been made. It wasn't a gimmie, but I think it is counted as a drop if he doesn't haul it in. It also didn't require any more effort than JJ stopping in the endzone turning around and then bending down to catch the ball.

[sharpe1027]

I disagree, at least on my own behalf.

Sorry, it was not meant as a personal jab, but I can see how it reads that way.

[Patler]

Jones seems to only run cold as far as effort (although productivity is still often hot). Even the touchdown catch you were referring to earlier as being an example of a good catch by JJ was a catch that should have been made. It wasn't a gimmie, but I think it is counted as a drop if he doesn't haul it in. It also didn't require any more effort than JJ stopping in the endzone turning around and then bending down to catch the ball.

He has had his problem this year for sure, but I remember the play last year along the sidelines when he fought a DB and the ball down the sideline, took a big hit, but still came up with the ball. Generally, he seems to show good effort with the ball after catching it, but looks less than dynamic going after it, I agree.

[mraynrand]

Nelson's effort on the one long throw to him on Sunday was very weak. He is the biggest receiver the Packers have, and rather than fight above and through the defender to get at the ball, he sort of waived an arm at it and looked pleadingly at the official.

Jennings seems to run hot and cold.

I agree on the long ball to Nelson. I think Jones is up and down too. Jennings not quite as much. But these guys have to stop going Katy Perry on Rodgers if they want to beat ATL.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcoekyMCWzg

[PA Pack Fan]

I love that band.

[pbmax]

Just looked it up. The Jets were fined $125,000. They said this:

The NFL has been all over the map on this. I don't believe there was a fine for the Vikings, for instance, when Favre publicly declared that he hurt his arm while pulling off/putting on a T-shirt the Saturday before the game.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/17/childress-says-he-wont-fudge-injury-report-for-favre/
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/11/14/report-favre-played-with-undisclosed-shoulder-injury/

And the Jets issue was at first ignored, until Favre (who started talking about it in the offseason) kept talking about it after he came back with the Vikes and managed to reveal that the Vikings not only knew his shoulder was bothering him, but that they tested it and found the cause. This makes it different than Roethlisberger's rib injury before the Super Bowl, where an X-ray hadn't revealed the cause of the pain.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/16/league-explains-favre-injury-report-fine/

And there was the issue that apparently the league inquired about Favre during the 2008 season and was told, no, he has no injury we need to report. So the fine was also an exercise in punishing the team for a coverup.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/21/last-word-on-jets-injury-report-fine/

And true to recent form, he also threw the Packers under the bus while trying to explain that it was no big deal.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/23/favre-calls-injury-report-fine-very-unfair-opens-packers-to-possible-scrutiny/

However, Laurence Maroney had a shoulder injury that went unreported and the Patriots avoided fines.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/05/17/pats-hid-maroneys-broken-shoulder/

This despite having football teams sign an compliance agreement with all League Rules, including the injury report. Its an odd situation that you need to have a signature for people to feel sufficiently obligated to follow the rules.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/05/17/injury-report-shenanigans-raise-eyebrows-due-to-patriot-compliance/

[pbmax]

Does anyone have the sense that most of Jones' problems are with throws/routes where the ball in headed in the same direction he is? If he is turned around and facing the throw (the TD catch) he seems to do fine. But over the shoulder or in front of him seem to give him fits unlike Jennings or Driver.

[GrnBay007]

Howz the boy 007?

Healthy :) Swingin the bat and pumpin the iron. thx for asking freak.

[vince]

Does anyone have the sense that most of Jones' problems are with throws/routes where the ball in headed in the same direction he is? If he is turned around and facing the throw (the TD catch) he seems to do fine. But over the shoulder or in front of him seem to give him fits unlike Jennings or Driver.
Yes.

[MichiganPackerFan]

http://gnb.scout.com/2/1039046.html?refid=400

The first section of this is a good back and forth between Jennings and Jones from this week. A really quick and fun read.

[mraynrand]

“Before he answers that, I’m going to tell you that his thumb is beat down,” Jennings said, “but that is no excuse because all our fingers are beat up.”


Uh, oh! More unreported injuries! I sense multiple fines coming from the NFL...

[MichiganPackerFan]

“Before he answers that, I’m going to tell you that his thumb is beat down,” Jennings said, “but that is no excuse because all our fingers are beat up.”


Uh, oh! More unreported injuries! I sense multiple fines coming from the NFL...

I cant imagine WR's with banged up fingers falls into that category. Maybe a QB with a thumb, but just like Offensive Lineman with banged up fingers (to them it would be an insult to put them on the list for a finger) you might as well put every wr and ol in the league on the list for that.

[Fritz]

Heer's a quote from Greg Jennings about visiting Jordy Nelson's farm in Kansas last offseason. It cracked me up:

"We had a blast acting the fool. We did farming things. We got to see how they artificially inseminate cows. We actually did it. You've got to stick your hand in there. It was nice and warm."

I'm thinking that during cold weather games, maybe Jordy could have a cow shipped up to Green Bay and set that thing on the sidelines for the receivers to warm up their hands. Maybe it'd make the receivers' hands stickier, too, and then Jones wouldn't drop so many.

[SkinBasket]

James Jones is a cow vagina. We don't need to on the sideline.

[Fritz]

If James Jones is a cow vagina, then what is Atari Bigby???

[MJZiggy]

If James Jones is a cow vagina, then what is Atari Bigby???

Horse's ass. Duh!

[SnakeLH2006]

James Jones is a cow vagina. We don't need to on the sideline.

^^This.

[SkinBasket]

James Jones is a cow vagina. We don't need to on the sideline.

Nice spelling asshole. I'm almost as retarded as Cow Vagina Jones.

[swede]

Nice spelling asshole. I'm almost as retarded as Cow Vagina Jones.

We all promise not to be confused when you post, "Well, well...for once CV catches a ball that drops right into his f*cking hands."

[SkinBasket]

We all promise not to be confused when you post, "Well, well...for once CV catches a ball that drops right into his f*cking hands."

Like that has a chance of happening...

[bobblehead]

Can not believe NOBODY BUMPED THIS THREAD!!

Come on gang, let me hear the fickle fair weather JJ LOVIN'

TT needs to resign this guy ASAP

[vince]

JJ redeemed himself in a big way last night. Very happy for him after last week's huge drop. GREAT catch in the end zone.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

JJ has talent.....but he needs to play like that every week. He has to play like this week as well. So do all the Wrs, not just him.

[SkinBasket]

James Jones is a fucking HERO!!!!!

Looks like you sad sacks were right. The fucker can't catch a ball he isn't facing, but sure as shit he can look like Jerry fucking Rice with more junk in the trunk when he's turned the right direction.

And he did catch that one over the shoulder that had been blown dead for neutral zone infraction. Maybe a little confidence will allow him to catch balls he isn't facing soon. Imagine him grabbing balls in every direction. He'd look like Ricky Martin at a troubled boys camp.

Here's to James Jones being a ball grabbin freak for the next two games then being signed by a team who wants to try him as a #2.

[RashanGary]

He is an animal facing the ball. Go back to his San Jose clips and that guy was a friggin animal going up for the jump balls there too. Those slants he's dropped and that deep bomb. . . It's maddening. He has #1 talent with a #4 hands. I'm still holding out hope.

[Joemailman]

Does anyone have the sense that most of Jones' problems are with throws/routes where the ball in headed in the same direction he is? If he is turned around and facing the throw (the TD catch) he seems to do fine. But over the shoulder or in front of him seem to give him fits unlike Jennings or Driver.


He is an animal facing the ball. Go back to his San Jose clips and that guy was a friggin animal going up for the jump balls there too. Those slants he's dropped and that deep bomb. . . It's maddening. He has #1 talent with a #4 hands. I'm still holding out hope.

I wonder if it's vision rather than hands. I wonder if he wears contacts and would be better off with lasik surgery.

[3irty1]

The answer for Jones is simple in my mind. He's like Corey Hart or a crazy girlfriend, the worse you treat him the better he is. Eat shit James Jones you greasy-handed asshole.

[Brandon494]

Jordy Nelson had a great game too. This was the type of game I was expecting from Jones and Nelson after both were getting great raves during training camp.

[Joemailman]

Yep. The WR's lived up to their press clippings yesterday. That offense is nearly unstoppable when they do.

[gbgary]

he played great yesterday. since we now know he's had a thumb, and we really don't know how bad it is or how long he's had it, i think he should get some slack cut his way. go jj!

[Patler]

If Jones had fumbled the way Jennings did, and fallen on a route like Jennings did; would it be ignored as Jennings' gaffes are being mostly ignored? Jennings is on a streak of at least one screw-up each game that goes back a while. He's supposed to be the top dog of the group. He needs to clean up his game for next week.

[Joemailman]

If Jones had fumbled the way Jennings did, and fallen on a route like Jennings did; would it be ignored as Jennings' gaffes are being mostly ignored? Jennings is on a streak of at least one screw-up each game that goes back a while. He's supposed to be the top dog of the group. He needs to clean up his game for next week.

Especially if it's the Bears. Nobody does a better job of stripping the ball after a catch than they do.

[rbaloha1]

Yep. The WR's lived up to their press clippings yesterday. That offense is nearly unstoppable when they do.

Redemption. Continued high level performance results in a big contract.

The offense is scray good when receivers do not drop passes.

[Packgator]

Especially if it's the Bears. Nobody does a better job of stripping the ball after a catch than they do.

Except the Packers?

[HarveyWallbangers]

If Jones had fumbled the way Jennings did, and fallen on a route like Jennings did; would it be ignored as Jennings' gaffes are being mostly ignored? Jennings is on a streak of at least one screw-up each game that goes back a while. He's supposed to be the top dog of the group. He needs to clean up his game for next week.

Hate to rain on your Jennings hate, but the dude tends to make at least a couple of big plays for every screwup. Plus, he's the guy opening things up for all of the other receivers. Dude is a pure stud. I'm not sure I've seen somebody who runs routes as well as he does or is as quick as he is. Some of the moves he puts on defenders is ridiculous.

If Jones had fumbled the way Jennings did, I actually wouldn't have gotten on him. Jennings made a couple of guys miss, and didn't know the other guy was there. Some times shit happens. It's different than Jones fumble against Chicago when he should have carried the ball in his other arm. Just a high school level screwup.

[Patler]

Hate to rain on your Jennings hate, but the dude tends to make at least a couple of big plays for every screwup. Plus, he's the guy opening things up for all of the other receivers. Dude is a pure stud. I'm not sure I've seen somebody who runs routes as well as he does or is as quick as he is. Some of the moves he puts on defenders is ridiculous.

If Jones had fumbled the way Jennings did, I actually wouldn't have gotten on him. Jennings made a couple of guys miss, and didn't know the other guy was there. Some times shit happens. It's different than Jones fumble against Chicago when he should have carried the ball in his other arm. Just a high school level screwup.

Funny how things just seem to happen to Jennings every week now. Oh well, he's a stud so I guess it doesn't matter.

[sharpe1027]

Jennings has had an increase in mistakes the past few weeks, no excuses. If you look at the regular season, however, despite having twice as many catches, yards and TDs, Jennings still had less fumbles than Jones. Jones also had more dropped passes:

http://stats.nj.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=NFC&type=Receiving&rank=232&year=2010

So, half as much productivity and still more fumbles and drops. I'd say its not even close.

[SnakeLH2006]

He is an animal facing the ball. Go back to his San Jose clips and that guy was a friggin animal going up for the jump balls there too. Those slants he's dropped and that deep bomb. . . It's maddening. He has #1 talent with a #4 hands. I'm still holding out hope.

JH you nailed it. I used to love JJ for his ability, but soured with his drops.

He has insane ability to get open and make plays (Jordy can't do that). But the routine catch (Jordy's MO) is not JJ's domain.

He catches EVERYTHING in his face, but over the shoulder....sigh. Good post bro.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Jennings lost fumble in the last game was the first of his career.

To me, comparing Jennings to Jones is like comparing Adrian Peterson to Ryan Grant. Peterson is so dynamic that you'll live with some turnovers. Grant is more pedestrian and taking care of the ball has to be a part of his game. Jennings is dynamic. Jones is more pedestrian, so he just has to take care of the ball better.

Again, I like Jones where he's at in our offense, but I have a feeling he'll go elsewhere and disappoint for a team thinks he'll be a decent #1 or very good #2 receiver.

[SnakeLH2006]

Jennings lost fumble in the last game was the first of his career.

To me, comparing Jennings to Jones is like comparing Adrian Peterson to Ryan Grant. Peterson is so dynamic that you'll live with some turnovers. Grant is more pedestrian and taking care of the ball has to be a part of his game. Jennings is dynamic. Jones is more pedestrian, so he just has to take care of the ball better.

Again, I like Jones where he's at in our offense, but I have a feeling he'll go elsewhere and disappoint for a team thinks he'll be a decent #1 or very good #2 receiver.

^^This

[bobblehead]

Let me add to your post snake. ^^This....is true, but I abhor turnovers. As a bettor turnovers are a stat that can not be ignored. Peterson is awesome (behind a REALLY good line), but his fumbles keep him from being mentioned with Sanders and Smith. Same went for Tiki Barber before he learned to hold onto the ball.

I been cracking on Jennings (for like 3 posts) because people were ignoring his deficiencies while wanting to crucify JJ. Jennings has proven his worth. So has JJ. Jennings is certainly more, but JJ is far from worthless. JJ is anything but pedestrian. He makes spectacular plays. Big plays. But then he makes you kick the dog. Jennings is not a fumbler, but neither is JJ really. He has had a couple problems against the bears, no one else. As for carrying the ball in the wrong arm...Ahman Green did that his entire career and nary a peep.

[Bretsky]

Jennings has made some horrific mistakes against the Bears; let's hope that does not continue

[Patler]

Jennings lost fumble in the last game was the first of his career.

To me, comparing Jennings to Jones is like comparing Adrian Peterson to Ryan Grant. Peterson is so dynamic that you'll live with some turnovers. Grant is more pedestrian and taking care of the ball has to be a part of his game. Jennings is dynamic. Jones is more pedestrian, so he just has to take care of the ball better.

Again, I like Jones where he's at in our offense, but I have a feeling he'll go elsewhere and disappoint for a team thinks he'll be a decent #1 or very good #2 receiver.

The key word in that statement is "lost". Jennings has had 5 fumbles during the regular seasons, but has been fortunate to only lose one of them, and its not because he "fumbles better" so doesn't lose them! :smile: Any fumble can be a turnover. Whether it is or not often depends on who else is around at the time.

Sorry, but I don't see Jennings as the "Adrian Peterson" of wide receivers, so I wouldn't give him nearly the slack that I would for Peterson. More importantly, as to how Jennings is playing right now, the lost fumble was his third fumble this season; however, one that was attributed to him was on the multiple laterals during the last play against Atlanta, so it is hard to attach a lot of blame on that. But, my point has been that with a couple fumbles, a number of dropped balls, and a few plays where he has seemed to lose focus, Jennings needs to tighten up his game. After all, he is supposed to be the Packers' stud at WR.

Driver, in a 12 year career and over 700 "touches", has 8 fumbles.
Jennings, with 323 touches has 5 fumbles.
Jones with 149 touches has 6 fumbles (3 playing against Chicago).
Jordy Nelson also has 6 fumbles, but 5 have been on kick and punt returns.

Regarding fumbles, Jones is awful, Jennings probably about average for a WR, Driver is quite secure with the ball, and Jordy Nelson shouldn't be used as a returner! :smile:

[bobblehead]

Yep. The WR's lived up to their press clippings yesterday. That offense is nearly unstoppable when they do.

Wanna know what is really sick. Arod had 5 incompletions. On one Jennings fell, on another he threw it at BJacks feet because a screen got blown up. Don't recall the other 3, but at least 2 weren't because he missed a target.

[mraynrand]

Peterson...his fumbles keep him from being mentioned with Sanders and Smith. Same went for Tiki Barber before he learned to hold onto the ball.

Peterson has mentioned with Sanders and Smith. Peterson's fumbles kept him from a championship, not from being considered one of the best backs in football.

P.S. Tiki Barber? Really?

[bobblehead]

Peterson has mentioned with Sanders and Smith. Peterson's fumbles kept him from a championship, not from being considered one of the best backs in football.

P.S. Tiki Barber? Really?

Peterson does not deserve to be mentioned with sanders and smith, and anyone who does so ignores the impact his fumbles have on his team. Tiki Barber...yes, really. His last 2 seasons he was absolutely dominant....after he stopped fumbling. Then he retired.

[mraynrand]

Peterson does not deserve to be mentioned with sanders and smith, and anyone who does so ignores the impact his fumbles have on his team. Tiki Barber...yes, really. His last 2 seasons he was absolutely dominant....after he stopped fumbling. Then he retired.


What impact did Sanders not fumbling have on his team?

My point about Barber is that he was just as 'dominant' before and after the fumbles. Mostly the difference between early and late in his career was that his receptions went from about 70 to about 50 and the number of carries went way up. He got more opportunities to run because he was dominant in the offense, and they needed him, not because he stopped fumbling.

Let just clarify here - you're saying that 4-5 extra fumbles/year for a guy who has 400 touches should remove him from the great running back conversation?

[mmmdk]

Jennings lost fumble in the last game was the first of his career.

To me, comparing Jennings to Jones is like comparing Adrian Peterson to Ryan Grant. Peterson is so dynamic that you'll live with some turnovers. Grant is more pedestrian and taking care of the ball has to be a part of his game. Jennings is dynamic. Jones is more pedestrian, so he just has to take care of the ball better.

Again, I like Jones where he's at in our offense, but I have a feeling he'll go elsewhere and disappoint for a team thinks he'll be a decent #1 or very good #2 receiver.

You like kicking ass, Harv? :butt:

:lol:

[Bretsky]

Jennings has made some horrific mistakes against the Bears; let's hope that does not continue

IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT

I meant to say "JONES" has had some horrific mistakes against da Bears

[RashanGary]

I've been a Jones defender, but that horrific drop in Philly has me questioning his reliability. And yes, Jones has been disgusting in Bear games.

[mraynrand]

IDIOT IDIOT IDIOT

I meant to say "JONES" has had some horrific mistakes against da Bears

Jennings did drop that TD pass in the game at Lambeau....

[rbaloha1]

Expect JJ to have a good game with the regained confidence.

[packerbacker1234]

JJ is alright. He's not consistent enough to be a #2, but he has enough skills to be a #3 on most peoples teams for a long time. It only sucks because we all see his inherent ability, but are baffled at why he drops the balls he does.

[RashanGary]

Jones flashes #1 ability. He was in the top 32 WR's this year for yards. Either Jones has #1 WR talent or we think there are only 20 #1 WR's in the NFL.

[HarveyWallbangers]

The key word in that statement is "lost". Jennings has had 5 fumbles during the regular seasons, but has been fortunate to only lose one of them, and its not because he "fumbles better" so doesn't lose them! :smile: Any fumble can be a turnover. Whether it is or not often depends on who else is around at the time.

Sorry, but I don't see Jennings as the "Adrian Peterson" of wide receivers, so I wouldn't give him nearly the slack that I would for Peterson.

Well, one of his 5 fumbles wasn't actually a fumble. Go back and look at the fumble in the earlier Atlanta game. If the Packers hadn't recovered the fumble that wasn't actually a fumble, it would have been reviewed and he would have been ruled down.

I don't think Jennings is quite as good at WR as Peterson is at RB, but I think Jennings is closer to the top of the WR chain than you think. Also, I think Ryan Grant is a better RB than Jones is a WR, so it kind of evens out the comparison.

[Patler]

I don't think Jennings is quite as good at WR as Peterson is at RB, but I think Jennings is closer to the top of the WR chain than you think.

Not true. I actually do think Jennings is one of the better receivers, and that's my point. He hasn't really been playing like it with fumbles, drops and inattentive plays all too frequently and in clusters this season. I expect better play from him than I do from Jones.

[Joemailman]

Jones flashes #1 ability. He was in the top 32 WR's this year for yards. Either Jones has #1 WR talent or we think there are only 20 #1 WR's in the NFL.

I'd say 20 is about right. Lots of teams don't have a legit #1, including the Bears.

[RashanGary]

Jones would be the best receiver on a handful of teams in this league, maybe even the Bears. He'd be a starter on all but a handful of teams in the league (including the team he's on oddly enough).

He's going to put up significant career numbers in the NFL. In yards, receptions and touchdowns he'll finish somewhere in the top 200 WR's that ever played the game. Just to put some perspective on that, there are about 150 WR's who play today, so there have been a lot of receivers who've played in the NFL.

If he just gets 700 yards per season through his prime (the next 6 years or so) he'll finish where I think. I actually think it's a safe guess.


Tramon Williams was a guy who everyone sat around and bitched about how inconsistent, overrated, questionalbe he was and all he did was turn out great. Jones dropsies and fumblitis rule him out from becoming the next Tramon, but he has that kind of talent and he's going to have a big career IMO.

[SkinBasket]

Jones would be the best receiver on a handful of teams in this league, maybe even the Bears. He'd be a starter on all but a handful of teams in the league (including the team he's on oddly enough).

If Jones played the way you and others want him to play, that would be true. As it is, and as it's always been with him, he might be the best receiver on a handful of teams. If he could just play consistently. But I guess for some fans, the jury's still out.



Tramon Williams was a guy who everyone sat around and bitched about how inconsistent, overrated, questionalbe he was and all he did was turn out great. Jones dropsies and fumblitis rule him out from becoming the next Tramon, but he has that kind of talent and he's going to have a big career IMO.

When did people call Tramon inconsistent, overrated, and questionable? Maybe you felt this way, but I certainly don't remember a popular sentiment of that sort. I guess we'll just have to wait, like we do every year, for that "big career" to start. But I'm still waiting, and have been for a couple years, for Bigby's next "big hit," so you'll have to excuse me if I'm not as interested in waiting on Jones. A guy can only wait on so much delusional wishful thinking before he starts forgetting what he was waiting for.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Jones flashes #1 ability. He was in the top 32 WR's this year for yards. Either Jones has #1 WR talent or we think there are only 20 #1 WR's in the NFL.

Top 32 WR in yards? I just looked at the top 50 for yards and he wasn't on the list. Seven of the players were TEs, but that means he wasn't in the top 43 WRs. Not sure yards is the best indicator for ranking WRs anyways.

[RashanGary]

There are a few RB's on that list too. But yeah, that stat I looked at a few weeks ago and didn't know the exact number or really care for that matter. He's In the top 43 then. And regardless, that's after taking a back seat to Jennings, Finley and Driver early and Jennings and Driver for the rest of the season. He's a friggin animal. Just has to catch the ball and hang on to it. There are finess WR's. There are hustle WR's. There are freak WR's. Jones is a beast WR. He'll have an awesome career.

[RashanGary]

BEAST

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3112/2569948248_49eb8b8b5e.jpg

[Joemailman]

JJ was 55th in receiving yards, 45th among WR's. I think Jones is a legit #2. If he was a #1, he would have shown it by now.

[RashanGary]

JJ was 55th in receiving yards, 45th among WR's. I think Jones is a legit #2. If he was a #1, he would have shown it by now.

Same was said about Tramon Williams before he became a starter. Same was said about Bishop (by skinbasket too. Skin ranted and raved about what a douche Bishop was). Jones hasn't even scratched the surface.

[CaliforniaCheez]

James Jones has had 3 huge fumbles against the Bears. 2 in field goal range and one on a crucial winning drive at midfield.

He had the famous drop against the Eagles.

There is a pretty good chance he has gooten that out of his system and will play a smart game.

Jennings demonstrated last week it can happen to anybody.

If the Packers are going to run up the score James Jones has to have a great game.

[RashanGary]

I can't go back to the old forum, but even in the beginning of this year I remember Patler questioning if Williams really was a quality starter. There were several others too, but he's just one. One of McGinn's scouts said he was a good nickle back, thought he would have been better. That was just this offseason.

None of this proves anything about Jones but I think it does show that people can easily misread the data in front of them. I could be right about Jones. You could be right about Jones. But him not putting up #1 numbers as the 3rd or 4th option on a very talented receiving team doesn't necessarily show what you think it shows. It didn't for Bishop, didn't for Williams. It might for Jones, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion matter of factly. In some ways Jones is more of a beast than Jennings. Jump ball in the endzone. . . I'd like to see more of that with Jones.

[pbmax]

Williams did show it, two years ago when replacing Harris who was out (spleen). Last year he had a dip while replacing Harris again who was out (no connective tissue between knee and lower leg). While I agree there was a dip for each, Williams flashed earlier, longer and higher before the dip. And Moon's dip has been over for more than a year now.

[RashanGary]

James Jones has started three games this year. He's averaged 83 yards per game and 0.7 TD's per game. Over 16 that would be 1322 yards per season and 11 TD's. To say James Jones has had his opportunies and showed he wasn't number one material is just not true. It's a small sample, but it would be much more honest to say the opposite. Kid's a beast. I'll bet he has an awesome career.

[Brandon494]

Jones is a #2 reciever at best.

[swede]

Jones is a #2 reciever at best.

On average I'll agree because half the time he plays like a #3 and the other half of the time he plays like a #1.

[bobblehead]

What impact did Sanders not fumbling have on his team?

My point about Barber is that he was just as 'dominant' before and after the fumbles. Mostly the difference between early and late in his career was that his receptions went from about 70 to about 50 and the number of carries went way up. He got more opportunities to run because he was dominant in the offense, and they needed him, not because he stopped fumbling.

Let just clarify here - you're saying that 4-5 extra fumbles/year for a guy who has 400 touches should remove him from the great running back conversation?

Just to clarify yes...but its closer to 6 in Petersons case. 5 fumbles more can equate about 1.5 losses if you analyze stats from a bettors standpoint. 10 extra interceptions grades out to 2.4 losses (no, i'm not sure what the difference is, just what the experts tell me, and they are right).

[HarveyWallbangers]

James Jones has started three games this year. He's averaged 83 yards per game and 0.7 TD's per game.

He's started three games and his stats aren't significantly better than Jordy's stats. :)

I don't quite see what you see. I see a solid player that gets terrific matchups because of the other WRs. He'll get a lot more attention when he goes elsewhere and is a primary guy. He likely won't have a QB that can put it on him like ARod can.

[RashanGary]

We'll see. I like his talent. He has a lot of short area burst and plays physical. I seem him as a guy who if he had more opportunities, he'd be a big time player. I think Jordy is more talented than his numbers too, just not as talented as Jones.

[Packers4Glory]

Jones can dominate a game and he can lose a game. He's got #1 talent and has shown it several times. He's gotten a lot of snaps but not as many as he'd have if we didn't have 2 studs in GJ and DD.

call me crazy but he reminds of Freeman. If JJ can dial it in and gain some consistency he could easily have the same type of career. IIRC it took Freeman breaking his hand to get him to focus on holding onto the ball and catching it more consistently.

we all hope he's taken this season, and most recently that Philly game to heart. Couple that philly game w/ the bounce back performance in atlanta and it could be a nice outcome for the future.

I hope we keep the SOB. He's the best option to take over for DD and keep this offense flying high w/ GJ and Finley. Nelson makes a nice stud 3rd.

[Joemailman]

Freeman is an interesting comparison. They do have some similar talent. The thing about Freeman was that he always showed up in the big games. As a result, Favre trusted him completely. If Jones wants to rise to that level, he needs to give Rodgers a reason to trust him when it matters the most. Tomorrow would be a good time to establish that.

[SkinBasket]

James Jones is more bestiality than beast. Guy really knows how to screw the pooch.

[Fritz]

James Jones is more bestiality than beast. Guy really knows how to screw the pooch.

LMFAO. Oh. My. God.

[MadtownPacker]

James Jones is more bestiality than beast. Guy really knows how to screw the pooch.
If, and I agree with you his odds of fucking up are great, if he is a difference maker in a win will you prepare to wash nuts? I talking about Jones nuts not Nutz nuts.

[bobblehead]

He's started three games and his stats aren't significantly better than Jordy's stats. :)

I don't quite see what you see. I see a solid player that gets terrific matchups because of the other WRs. He'll get a lot more attention when he goes elsewhere and is a primary guy. He likely won't have a QB that can put it on him like ARod can.

But he is arbitrarily a red, and jordy is not...end of discussion.

[Bretsky]

Dear James Jones,

Plz do NOT fumble today

[MJZiggy]

Dear James Jones,

Plz do NOT fumble today

And watch the ball into your hands. Do not even THINK about running with it until you have it securely in your possession. (and get some LASIK in the off season just to be safe).

[Bretsky]

I don't know why but for me the fumbles bother me more

Zig, you were at the Bears game where he gift wrapped two fumbles at Lambeau and they lost; we saw him do it again this year

I just don't want to see it today; the Bears LB's strip the ball as wel as any team in the NFL

[Packers4Glory]

I don't know why but for me the fumbles bother me more

Zig, you were at the Bears game where he gift wrapped two fumbles at Lambeau and they lost; we saw him do it again this year

I just don't want to see it today; the Bears LB's strip the ball as wel as any team in the NFL

I'd say better than any team in football.

we can't afford to lose the damn ball, esp early like last week. we were really really lucky the GJ fumble and the KO return TD didn't snowball against us. I'm still amazed it didn't. Can't hope to be that lucky this week. gotta be a strong start, keep the pressure on their offense to keep up w/ ours, and take care of the damn football!

[pbmax]

Wrong thread!

[SkinBasket]

If, and I agree with you his odds of fucking up are great, if he is a difference maker in a win will you prepare to wash nuts? I talking about Jones nuts not Nutz nuts.

Looks like you need a new fantasy to jerk off to tonight taco flipper.

[MJZiggy]

How do you flip a taco?

[gbgary]

drew a nice penalty today.

[Iron Mike]

Every time I see James Jones, he reminds me of the monster in a Seventies T.V. movie.....

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_s8l-yu7AZLM/Sj96ubjJ1zI/AAAAAAAAH04/z1V4qr2zMek/s400/gargoyles_cap21.jpg

[SkinBasket]

How do you flip a taco?

Same way you toss a salad I guess.

[Deputy Nutz]

Freeman is an interesting comparison. They do have some similar talent. The thing about Freeman was that he always showed up in the big games. As a result, Favre trusted him completely. If Jones wants to rise to that level, he needs to give Rodgers a reason to trust him when it matters the most. Tomorrow would be a good time to establish that.

Freeman ran fantastic routes and was always on the same page with his QB. The other quality that James Jones doesn't have is that Freeman had great hands, he might not have been the fastest or quickest but he had phenominal hands.

[pbmax]

Didn't Freeman struggle with his hands early? Or am I confusing him with Walker?

[sharpe1027]

Didn't Freeman struggle with his hands early? Or am I confusing him with Walker?

I thought he had troubles until he played with the cast and then he caught everything.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I thought he had troubles until he played with the cast and then he caught everything.

Well, Freeman barely played his rookie year and then broke his arm midway through his second year, so that would mean he caught everything practically his whole career.

Personally, I thought Freeman had solid hands, but he'd drop some balls. I remember Robert Brooks having some great hands though.

[mission]

I always remember Freeman as a "body catcher" rather than a guy with great hands.

[swede]

I always remember Freeman as a "body catcher" rather than a guy with great hands.

He was also a good "back-of-the-helmet-off-the-jersey-off-his-legs-into-the-air catcher" too

[pbmax]

I always remember Freeman as a "body catcher" rather than a guy with great hands.

I swear I remember the same theme sharpe does. That the cast helped him learn to concentrate all the way through securing the ball. I have read that story more than once. It may have been bunk, but I remember it.

[SkinBasket]

I swear I remember the same theme sharpe does. That the cast helped him learn to concentrate all the way through securing the ball. I have read that story more than once. It may have been bunk, but I remember it.

I too recall this fabled lore. Even though the ball would bypass his hands sometimes, he would still close around it and absorb it with this gut - he always was a little pudgy. Maybe Jones' problem is those tight abs everyone loves. That's what's making the ball clang around - just like it did on the PI call he drew. shoulder, hand, helmet, gut, ground. Clang, clink, dong, bang, poof. Sure he only had one hand, but it looked the same as when he has two.

[mraynrand]

Maybe Jones' problem is those tight abs everyone loves. That's what's making the ball clang around - just like it did on the PI call he drew. shoulder, hand, helmet, gut, ground. Clang, clink, dong, bang, poof. Sure he only had one hand, but it looked the same as when he has two.

Welcome to the James Jones pass catching experience:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rNGHGDmZH2k/TG8TVCxoZ5I/AAAAAAAAE9I/QwW4iP2eQAI/s320/fights.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dYeSX1oTvJY/TGW3Cyyq8gI/AAAAAAAAD_8/MQ98JAdmEDQ/s400/batman_dark_tomorrow_pow.jpg