The Question

[HarveyWallbangers]

A few weeks ago this place was full of negative nancies that wanted McCarthy run out of town, among other things. I asked what happens if the Packers beat the Giants, beat the Bears, and win their first round playoff game. The only response that I got was "what if they don't."

Now that it has been done, what now?

[gabe]

I wasn't one of em, but you can't try to start running the clock with 12:42 to go in the fourth. My personal opinion is that we became far to predictable. I mean we were running good I understand that but when you start running every 1st and 2nd down, even when they have 8 in the box that's bad play calling. I would like to think that with 1on1 coverage everywhere that Aaron would audible instead of picking up 4 yards on two plays. Mm coached a good gamE until right before halftime and at the 12 minute mark in the 4th quarter, I'd at least like to see a slant, screen, or play action pass on second down once in a while.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Overblown. We had two 4th quarter drives. On the first one, we got a first down by running the ball and then got into 3rd and 1 on our next set of downs. We ran the ball. It's really hard to fault a team for trying to run it on 3rd and 1. Sorry, I just don't see the big deal there. On the second one, we ran it twice like most teams and tried throwing on third down and got sacked. I could see throwing play action on 2nd down, but I just can't get that worked up about the play calling when I disagreed with one play call for the quarter.

Coaching is more than play calling. It's getting a team to compete in every single game. Very few letdowns. It's getting a beat up team to overcome their injuries. No excuses by the coaching staff. It's getting a team to play well three consecutive weeks when their backs are against the wall. It's taking a young QB and molding him into an elite QB. It's getting 53 men to believe in what you are selling.

[Tarlam!]

Well Harv', I'm the most fluctuating fan on this board, always changing my mind 'n all. I say: Saint the Packer bastard.

Now, if they lose in Atlanta, it's back to "Off with his Pittburghian head!".

I hope this answers the question, mate.

[channtheman]

No head coach since 1980 has ever won a Super Bowl after 5 years with that team, except for Cowher who took 14 years but also lost one in his first 5 years. MM gets one more year, but if we don't win a Super Bowl next year, we need to can him as it will be very unlikely that he will ever do it.

[Tarlam!]

MM gets one more year, but if we don't win a Super Bowl next year, we need to can him as it will be very unlikely that he will ever do it.

Thanks for the stat, Chann, despite which I don't share your pro forma vision. Any way I slice it, the coaching staff under M3 has risen to the occasion save maybe Slocum (but if Masthay is to be believed, Slocum is a punting guru at least).

It cannot be easy to negate the injuries this team has had to this season. They have, however, been negated pretty well. Sure, TT provides the depth, the raw talent. And we're privvy to witness how effective his eye for talent is. But M3 and his gang need to assimulate the raw talent on the fly. I think they've done a remarkable job. So much so, that I would only want to see a change of HC if next season is a complete shambles similar to what the Vikes suffered this year.

[channtheman]

Thanks for the stat, Chann, despite which I don't share your pro forma vision. Any way I slice it, the coaching staff under M3 has risen to the occasion save maybe Slocum (but if Masthay is to be believed, Slocum is a punting guru at least).

It cannot be easy to negate the injuries this team has had to this season. They have, however, been negated pretty well. Sure, TT provides the depth, the raw talent. And we're privvy to witness how effective his eye for talent is. But M3 and his gang need to assimulate the raw talent on the fly. I think they've done a remarkable job. So much so, that I would only want to see a change of HC if next season is a complete shambles similar to what the Vikes suffered this year.

The only injuries that really affected this team were Grant and maybe Finley. With Grant I think we win at least 3 more games. The odd thing about Finley is that when he was in the game Rodgers looked stupid at the QB position. Rodgers would not throw to Finley when he was wide open, and then later he would force it to Finley when he was covered (sometimes this occurred in the same play!)

Every other injury we have sustained has benefited the team. Peprah is better than Burnett, Hawk plays better with Bishop who is better than Barnett. The LB's that have been injured? Those are just guys. Case in point, Jones gets injured and Zombo is just as good. Zombo gets hurt and Walden is just as good. Neal gets injured and our D line depth is shot, we pick up cast off like Howard Green who steps in and plays just fine. To be a Super Bowl caliber team, you need about 5 super star players (we have Rodgers, Williams, Woodson, Matthews, maybe Raji). Everyone else is just a guy and can almost be replaced by anyone else. The injuries are a convenient excuse when you want to make excuses, but if you look closely you see that very few of the injuries actually hurt this team.

[Tarlam!]

Chann, I'm not sure I disagree with anything in your post, except that injuries make for a convenient excuse. In fact, you make my case perfectly!

I can't recall any team sustaing the number of injuries to starters as this team has and then performing as consistantly well with back-ups and back-up-back-ups. The success is phenominal and the simple fact that they are still in the hunt despite some key names missing is a testimony to the accumulated depth and, just as important, the coaching skill of the staff, IMO.

You might be suggesting that my view is flawed, because if the team were less successful, I would make excuses and by the same token, I am abusing the injury status to inflate M3's accomplishments. Maybe I am, but winning with less than one planned with is always satisfying and praiseworthy, no matter the industry.

[swede]

Without Dom Capers we're already working on our mock drafts.

I don't mind having the MM defenders throw wins in my face. Keep doing it through the Super Bowl, please.

[Joemailman]

Does MM get any credit for hiring Capers?

[RashanGary]

I've had issues with MM and relying too much on the big play. Even when the deep balls work perfectly, it's hard to catch a 45 yard bullet as evident by all the deep drops. I'm glad to see they tapered it back against the Bears and Eagles. Some days it's going to work, but I think it's a bad identity to our offense because it's so hit or miss. MM went back to a more traditional short pass/run/mid range pass/deep shots last offense with balance and I think it not only works in the moment, but it sets us up to have some great deep shots against ATL. I predict a monster game by AR for several reasons, and MM's back to the basics approach the last two games is near the top of that list. It forces teams to defend us honestly.

[mraynrand]

Overblown. We had two 4th quarter drives. On the first one, we got a first down by running the ball and then got into 3rd and 1 on our next set of downs. We ran the ball. It's really hard to fault a team for trying to run it on 3rd and 1. Sorry, I just don't see the big deal there. On the second one, we ran it twice like most teams and tried throwing on third down and got sacked. I could see throwing play action on 2nd down, but I just can't get that worked up about the play calling when I disagreed with one play call for the quarter.

Coaching is more than play calling. It's getting a team to compete in every single game. Very few letdowns. It's getting a beat up team to overcome their injuries. No excuses by the coaching staff. It's getting a team to play well three consecutive weeks when their backs are against the wall. It's taking a young QB and molding him into an elite QB. It's getting 53 men to believe in what you are selling.

This is good stuff. Keep it up and you'll put Tony Robbins out of business. I agree. McCarthy (and Dom) have been tremendous.

[mraynrand]

Does MM get any credit for hiring Capers?

No. Capers gets extra credit for allowing himself to be hired by MM.

[RashanGary]

MM called a balanced game against teh Bears and Eagles!
Rodgers and the WR's will be in a windless dome!


I have a feeling Rodgers is do for a, light it up type game and the balanced approach helps set it up. There is a time and place for everything. I think we just took too many deep shots up until the very end of the season. The Flynn game helped give a blueprint. We CAN win without all of those deep shots. In fact, we're more likely to win.

[Joemailman]

Rodgers lit up Atlanta last time. Packers lost because they didn't convert in the red zone, including a fumble by Rodgers. You have to take advantage of your scoring chances to beat the Falcons there.

[RashanGary]

I'm also a big fan of MM's relationship with the team. The guy is a great leader. I think we have a dream setup with Capers doing what he does best and MM doing what he does best. MM's a motivator, leader and a friend to those guys. Capers is a brilliant coordinator. MM is an amazing developer of QB talent, an innovative passing coordinator and excellent playcaller. I think he gets caught up with his favorite toy (Rodgers) and puts too much on the OL. These last few weeks though, he's setting up something special. He's 90% postitive to me and 10% negative, but that negative really gets to me when we're on losing runs.

[Smidgeon]

No. Capers gets extra credit for allowing himself to be hired by MM.

:D

[Patler]

No head coach since 1980 has ever won a Super Bowl after 5 years with that team, except for Cowher who took 14 years but also lost one in his first 5 years. MM gets one more year, but if we don't win a Super Bowl next year, we need to can him as it will be very unlikely that he will ever do it.

Do you mean no coach has every won his first Super Bowl after he had been with the team for more than 5 years?
Is that right? I had not heard that. Interesting.
It would be interesting to know how often owners give a coach more than 5 years if they haven't won a SB.

[mraynrand]

A few weeks ago this place was full of negative nancies that wanted McCarthy run out of town, among other things. I asked what happens if the Packers beat the Giants, beat the Bears, and win their first round playoff game. The only response that I got was "what if they don't."

Now that it has been done, what now?

That's not fair, Harv. I correctly posted that they would play in a Divisional playoff game. Credit where credit is due! BTW, I stand by my position.

[RashanGary]

Were you directing this thread at me at all, Harv?

[Bretsky]

.

[mraynrand]

No. Capers gets extra credit for allowing himself to be hired by MM.


:D

Seriously though, I think this has been discussed on these boards. The thinking was that when McCarthy was first hired, he couldn't recruit the good coaches because he didn't have a rep. After a few years, I think the combination of McCarthy's obvious success - especially on the offensive side of the ball - gained him a lot of credibility in the community and he could attract top NFL coaching talent. Thus, the hiring of Dom Capers.

[Patler]

Seriously though, I think this has been discussed on these boards. The thinking was that when McCarthy was first hired, he couldn't recruit the good coaches because he didn't have a rep. After a few years, I think the combination of McCarthy's obvious success - especially on the offensive side of the ball - gained him a lot of credibility in the community and he could attract top NFL coaching talent. Thus, the hiring of Dom Capers.

Some have also suggested that his first contract paid him relatively lowly, and experienced, successful coordinators would have wanted almost as much. When MM signed his new contract at a much higher salary it gave them more room in the coaching salary structure for experienced (and expensive) assistants.

[Joemailman]

Do you mean no coach has every won his first Super Bowl after he had been with the team for more than 5 years?
Is that right? I had not heard that. Interesting.
It would be interesting to know how often owners give a coach more than 5 years if they haven't won a SB.

Currently:

Marvin Lewis
Jack Del Rio
Jeff Fisher
Gary Kubiak
Andy Reid
Lovie Smith

3 of them, Fisher, Reid and Smith made it to a Super Bowl and lost. John Fox was just fired or would have been on the list.

[mraynrand]

Some have also suggested that his first contract paid him relatively lowly, and experienced, successful coordinators would have wanted almost as much. When MM signed his new contract at a much higher salary it gave them more room in the coaching salary structure for experienced (and expensive) assistants.

Interesting. When Pittsburgh hired Tomlin they already had LeBeau in place since 2004, so they didn't have to worry about that so much. Don't know what their relative contracts were. Also would be interesting to see what Sean Payton made relative to Williams to see if there is a parallel there as well.

[Tarlam!]

I think we just took too many deep shots up until the very end of the season. The Flynn game helped give a blueprint. We CAN win without all of those deep shots. In fact, we're more likely to win.

You might be right with regards to the balance, JH, but I vividly remember DD publicly smacking his chops aover Rodgers' deep ball. He said it was the most beautiful deep ball he's seen. Now, DD was acting the vet supporting his new QB in the face of Bert wars taking place, but it's pertainent that he picked that throw to highlight.

I'm sure M3 sees it a lot in practice and has a tonne of confidence in it, so he calls it often; or Rodgers choses to look for it on option plays. Either way, they see it as a weapon and we fans can only guess if it's called from the sidelines or decided on as the play develops.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Were you directing this thread at me at all, Harv?

Nope.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't mind the deep shots. We are very good at it--especially when our receivers aren't dropping the ball. The conditions have led to more ball control and safer passes the last two weeks. I don't think it was some great epiphany for McCarthy after the Patriots game. I suspect we'll see more downfield shots against Atlanta, and I'm okay with that. Downfield shots open up the run game and underneath stuff--just like the run game opens up the passing game.

[vince]

McDermott was quoted in a post-game article somewhere (either JSO or Packersnews) saying that they made sure to take away the big plays from Green Bay's offense because they can be crushing. Chicago did the same thing.

[swede]

McDermott was quoted in a post-game article somewhere (either JSO or Packersnews) saying that they made sure to take away the big plays from Green Bay's offense because they can be crushing.

McDermott? I thought taking away the big play was James Jones' job.

[mraynrand]

McDermott? I thought taking away the big play was James Jones' job. :rs:

[mission]

I haven't been a big fan of MM so I guess I need to chime in here. Beginning to accept the fact that he's our coach, -- and has some shortcomings -- but does some things pretty well. Give him credit for the game yesterday and sticking with Starks even though there was a scare at the end... I probably would have been irate with him (somehow) if Vick's pass is 2 feet farther and Cooper makes the catch.

Still hard not to wonder what this talent (that's TT) could do with an A+ head coach. Hopefully our B+ coach can get the guys playing more consistently and enough to keep us moving in the playoffs.

[Tarlam!]

McDermott? I thought taking away the big play was James Jones' job.

Not sure who's snide remarks I love more than yours, Swede, and Fritz's. You guys crack me up.

[LEWCWA]

I don't know how MM can be considered anything but and excellent head coach. His teams are almost always in games. Very few blowout losses in his time here. I think some folks need to take a look at some of the other teams around the league to get an idea how good we have it.

As far as play calling, the only play I hated yesterday was the 3rd down call where Rodgers rolled right. I thought the play effectively cut down their options by using only half the field. I believe GB's strength is lining up with 4 or 5 and spreading the ball. This option roll out took away half the field. Just nitpicking cause I know little, but I was yelling no don't roll out as it unfolded. Guess what, had he hit the pass I would have been fine with the call though!

[swede]

I don't know how MM can be considered anything but an excellent head coach. His teams are almost always in games. Very few blowout losses in his time here. I think some folks need to take a look at some of the other teams around the league to get an idea how good we have it.


Stubby drives me crazy during the three hours of game time, and I am ginning myself up to enjoy dogging the guy for those three hours. In the other 165 hours of the week I think he might be the best coach in football.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't know how MM can be considered anything but and excellent head coach. His teams are almost always in games. Very few blowout losses in his time here. I think some folks need to take a look at some of the other teams around the league to get an idea how good we have it.

As far as play calling, the only play I hated yesterday was the 3rd down call where Rodgers rolled right. I thought the play effectively cut down their options by using only half the field. I believe GB's strength is lining up with 4 or 5 and spreading the ball. This option roll out took away half the field. Just nitpicking cause I know little, but I was yelling no don't roll out as it unfolded. Guess what, had he hit the pass I would have been fine with the call though!

I oftentimes like the rollout, but I also didn't like it in that situation. Other than that, I didn't have many complaints. I probably would have done a play action fake on second down on our last series, but I can't fault him for running it. Wear the clock down and we were running the ball well.

[billy_oliver880]

I wish stubby would keep his foot on the gas with the offense. It really seems sometimes like he gets a lead and they have a hell of a time sustaining drives after that.

[Patler]

I don't know how MM can be considered anything but and excellent head coach. His teams are almost always in games. Very few blowout losses in his time here. I think some folks need to take a look at some of the other teams around the league to get an idea how good we have it.

The problem with this discussion, or those about almost any coach or GM, is that people try to make it a yes/no discussion when it is far from that. I am sort of lukewarm about MM overall. I think he is great during the week, and seems to be liked, respected and most importantly believed in and followed by the players. That is very important and shouldn't be diminished at all. On the other hand, some game decisions make me scratch my head. I think his preparation and handling of players during the week have resulted in wins on game days. I also think some of his game day decisions have resulted in losses on game day in games that could/should have been won.

I think young coaches like MM can get better over time. They do not come in on day 1 of their first HC job and perform as good as they might 5 or 10 years later. Who does in any job?

Winning a Super Bowl does not make you a great coach. Sometimes it just sort of happens. Whether a coach is awful, bad, average, good, excellent or outstanding can be judged only over time and in view of the circumstances he was forced to deal with.

Could we do worse than MM? Certainly.
Is he the best there is? Certainly not. Not yet, at least.

[pbmax]

Its funny, but while I think he is good enough, the game yesterday did not change my opinion. He does make his share of mistakes. But so do other coaches. Its the reputation they garner that protects them and that might explain part of chann's 5 year coaching window to the Super Bowl. Right now a Super Bowl win is protecting Tom Coughlin even though he loses his team once a year.

Watching Holmgren (as conservative as McCarthy can be) drove me nuts too. But the team was winning and improving. It wasn't that he was always right, but that things kept getting better. The fact that they won a Super Bowl in a year they did not have to face the Cowboys in the playoffs should tell fans that sometimes, its all in the timing.

[sheepshead]

People on these boards have to bitch about somebody. TT was the whipping boy for years. everyone is a self proclaimed GM/personal man extraordinaire.

When we we're leading the league in penalties and loosing 7-8 games by 4 points or less, I was very critical of MM.

When you really look at this year(whenever it ends), I think many will say this has been one of the finest coaching jobs in recent NFL history. That goes for the entire staff. One of the least penalized teams in football. Correct me if I'm wrong but 9 starters lost and 3 of the replacements lost? That's a hell of a job.